I hold to radical, outrageous, shocking, scandalous, limitless grace. I believe there is no other kind of grace.
But whenever I teach or write about this sort of grace, it is almost guaranteed that someone will object by saying, “So are you saying that we can just go sin all we want?”
They are referring, of course, to the statement in Romans 6:1 where a person objects to Paul’s teaching about grace in exactly the same way. And Paul’s answer, of course, is “God forbid!”
Can I sin all I want?
In the past, I have responded similarly as Paul. I say “No, of course not!”
Then I go on to explain that just as obedience does nothing to help us earn or keep eternal life, sin does nothing to cause us to lose it or prove we never had it.
The reason God doesn’t want us to sin is because sin damages us.
(By the way, if you have a presentation of the Gospel which never gets the Romans 6:1 objection, then I submit to you that you are probably not teaching the same Gospel Paul was. If, after teaching about grace, no one says to you, “So are you saying I can just sin all i want?” then you probably have not taught grace. I call this question the Grace litmus test.)
But this past week I was talking to someone about grace, and they objected with the grace litmus test, and I don’t know what happened, but I sighed out of exasperation and decided to give a different answer than the one I had always given before.
The man said to me, “So are you saying I can just go sin all I want?”
And I smiled and said, “Yep. If that’s what you want to do, go right ahead.”
I got the “Deer in the headlights” look back from him. I think he had heard rumors that my type of theology existed, but he had never met anyone who was so willing to give him a license to sin as I had just done.
So yes, in a way, grace is a license to sin.
He started getting huffy with me, and tried to show that my response to him was different than what Paul said in Romans 6:1, and how therefore my understanding of grace different from that of Paul and so on…
But the more he preached at me the more convinced I became of what I had said out of exasperation.
Grace allows you to sin all you want … if that’s really what you want
If you really understand grace, and if you really understand God, and if you really understand God’s love for you, and after understanding all this, you really want to go sin, then be my guest, go right ahead.
Although grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust (Titus 2:12), grace also allows you to go sin all you want … if that is really what you want.
Let me put it another way.
If I told my daughters that I loved them completely, and that no matter what they did, I would always love them, forgive them, and be willing to die for them, and if, after I told them this, one of my daughters looked at me and said, “So I can just go stick my hand in the blender and you will still love me?” I would look at her a little strangely and say, “Well … yes … if that’s really want you want to do, go ahead. But know that if you do that, it’s going to be extremely painful. I will, of course, pull your hand out of the blender and rush you to the hospital to stop the bleeding and rescue what I can of your hand. But no matter what, I will still love you and cherish you as my daughter.”
This is what Paul means in Romans 6 when he responds with “God Forbid!” He is not saying, “No, you cannot!” but rather, “Why would you want to?”
You see, sin doesn’t stop God from loving us, nor does it stop God from doing everything He can to rescue us from the devastating and destructive consequences of sin. Sin definitely doesn’t prove that we were never His son or daughter to begin with.
No, sin hurts us. It cuts us. It ruins us. Sin destroys our relationships, our health, our finances, our marriages, our jobs, our longevity, our emotions, our psyche.
Asking the question “So I can just go sin all I want?” simply shows that you do not fully understand the love of God, the grace of God, or even God Himself! It also reveals that you do not understand the devastating and destructive consequences of sin.
Asking the question, “So I can just go sin all I want?” reveals that you don’t understand how painful sin can be.
Asking the question “So I can just go sin all I want?” is like asking, “So I can take this knife and stab it into my leg?” … Yes, if that is really what you want to do, go right ahead.
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Love this post.. great explanation.
Everyone agrees (at least most everyone) that to be saved we must trust in what Christ did for us on the Cross for our salvation. That is, i.e, trust that His shed blood washed away our sins for all time – past sins, present sins, and future sins. The question that nags at some is, are we “trusting” in the way Jesus wants us to trust?
Is it possible that the Roman Catholic Church has been right all the time, and we so-called Protestants are “missing the mark” and are outside the “Church?”
I believe that simply trusting in what Christ did for us on the Cross, i.e., washed away all of our sins, is sufficient, and I will take my chance with this kind of trust. Is there anyone who says I am wrong in having this simple trust?
No. Not at all. I was born believing in and lovingly worshiping GOD THE FATHER AND SON. I know without a doubt that God our Father loved us so much and wanted to spend eternity with us he showed us Mercy. And sent his son Jesus Christ. His loving son to die for our sins, that’s Mercy. and when Jesus said to his Father “forgive them Father, they know not what they do. I was tempted”
Meaning, I believe, sin hurts us so badly yet we continue to do it. So with his loving Grace he instead of judging he loves and protects us from our sinful selves.
Sin is of this world. God’s children are not. Basically the more you sin the harder your time in this world will be as a believer. sin does not, will not keep you from your eternal home with our Graceful Father
Actually, Serena, the Alabama Independent is wrong, not that the Roman Catholics are right. And you may not remember this, but you were not born worshiping God, I’m sure your mom would agree. But when you understood what God provided for you through Jesus, you accepted his offer and agreed to turn your back on the kingdom of darkness and walk in the light. Unfortunately sin has much greater consequences then just making life unhappy here on Earth.
There’s an old hymn that’s almost childlike in its simplicity. Here are some of the lyrics.
When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
What a glory He sheds on our way!
While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
And with all who will trust and obey.
Trust and obey, for there’s no other way…
Most Christians have the trust in Jesus part down fine but they have a problem with the obey part. Many apparently just want to know if they can not obey and be saved. I’ve heard a lot of preachers and teachers say that salvation was unconditional and irrevocable but when I really started studying the word in depth I realize they were wrong. Before you try to defend the OSAS doctrine look up the many scriptures which use conditional phrases in commenting on salvation. Some of them have been referenced in the discussion below. Many passages in the Bible teach that salvation is obtained by those who persevere to the end.
Heb 3 6 but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
Don’t be so quick to believe that you must continue to sin. Keep fighting the battle until you get victory. If we choose to live in sin, we are of the world and of the devil, not God.
1 John 3 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
We need to stop deceiving people into thinking that being a Christian is easy and that it’s cheap fire insurance. We need to tell them what Jesus said.
26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Our salvation is so priceless that not cost is too great, even our own lives. If we’re asking how much we can sin and still get into heaven, we’re asking the wrong question. We should be trying to avoid all sin and if we do slip into it, we need to repent of it immediately and pledge to avoid it in the future. We should not be playing around with sin, for one thing because it is so deceptive that it sucks us in a destroys us.
Heb 3 12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
Unrepentant sinners with hard hearts will not enter the kingdom of heaven, it doesn’t matter if they were once Christians or not.
1 Cor 6 9 Don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality,10 no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit God’s kingdom.
Serena, I hope that after you examine all the scriptures on this subject carefully, and I hope you do because you shouldn’t take any one’s word on something so vitally important, I hope you will at least encourage people to be aware of the possibility that God might require us to actually do something and be obedient and faithful in response to his unfathomable offer of salvation. I think it is very clear in God’s Word that heaven is for those who are willing to pay any price to get in, even if it means giving up their sin.
Churches are misleading when explaining personal responsibility. Yes, churches are for sinners but….in the potters hands being moulded to conform to the ways of our exemplar. Churches are preaching a false grace to the detriment of those seeking the truth to be a follower of Christ.
Read Verse 11… and such of those WERE you, but ye are washed, ye are sanctified, ye are justified… simple as that.
Two things:
1. Jesus paid the price.
I was wrong.
One thing.
If, sin does not keep us from our eternal home with our Graceful father, (as you put it)…… Then why did Jesus “have to” come and be crucified? Jesus didn’t want to be crucified. He chose to be. Why do you think while he was in the garden, he asked for “this cup to be taken from him”? Becouse he didnt want to suffer. But out of his love for us. He CHOSE to suffer our punishment and death for our sin’s, becouse he knew that, that was the only way we would have a choice. Which should also explain what Jesus means when he say’s, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
The point is to follow Jesus correct? Yes. Did Jesus teach we can sin? No. Did Jesus teach us not to sin? Yes. Does it say in the Bible many times that we are not to use grace as a license to sin. Yes. Is what your teaching these people bringing them salvation? Nope, you’ll bare your iniquity while your dead in the spirit realm until the second coming when you are resurrected, judged and will prob still go to heaven because God loves you so much and you did at least believe in God and Christ but that’s going to be after you go through baring your iniquity in the spirit realm after you die and before the second coming and that’s going to SUCK for you. Is what your teaching quite literally against God and totally an abomination? Yes. Do you think this thing he teaches stems from God or satin? You must trust Christ and FOLLOW key word FOLLOW Christ. If you sin your whole life and take advantage of what Christ did for us as a get out of jail free card, you will be disappointed in the end. How in heaven and earth does that sound right to you, taking advantage of Jesus suffering and dying for our sins after teaching us not to sin and obey God. Taking advantage of and exploiting his sacrifice so that we can sin in a way that God quite literally hates. Yes God HATES sin. It’s IMMORAL. It’s simply WRONG AND UNPURE period end of story. I choose to follow Christ and God promised more peace, happiness, satisfaction, and prosperity in life for living the way God intends. People please please don’t listen to this guy. God loves you so much and he can’t stand to see you go down the wrong path. Go down the straight and narrow path he provides for us. You’ll thank God for it later trust me.
I think the main issue is the definition of the greek words for believe and faith. Many churches will not go to the greek to define the words. Instead, they use confusing analogies.
If I look up pisteuo (one of the key words for believe online), I get this in greek lexicons:
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
Strongs has the following definition: πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo’-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
When I was looking at my works, I started to realize that I wasn’t entrusting Christ with my spiritual well-being and that I wasn’t persuaded that Jesus paying for all my sins was true.
There are other problems with adding obedience and works to the definition of believe. For instance, Paul asks King Agrippa “Do you believe the prophets. I know you believe…” (Acts 26:27). Does it sound like Paul is asking King Agrippa if he submits/obeys/surrenders, etc. to the prophets or does it sound like Paul is asking King Agrippa if he is persuaded that what the prophets said is true? Because the word for believe in Acts 26:27 is also pisteuo… Another issue is that the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians Chapter 3 lacked obedience and needed to be called babes in Christ, yet Paul still affirmed that they believed (again using the greek word pisteuw). Paul also says in 1 Corinthians 3 that they are the temple of the holy spirit, God’s building and that they belonged to Christ. How can Paul say that if true belief has to involve obedience since they consistently lacked obedience in some areas, enough to need to be called carnal babies in Christ?
Not sure if I can put links here, but there is a detailed dissertation from Charles Bing that has been a great help to me. It discusses the definition of pisteuw and peiqw and grammatical construction. I can usually find it by searching for Charles Bing Lordship salvation meaning of pisteuo.
Matthew 7:21-23
1 John 3:4-7
Hebrews 10:26-29
Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the pharisee s you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Grace allows us to rise against sin through the Holy Spirit it is NOT a license to sin.
Hebrews 10:26 through 31 clearly destroys your license to sin Doctrine. The unknown author of Hebrews is clearly addressing the church. There’s no doubt about it. Without a doubt Hebrews 10 26 through 31 destroys your argument. And please don’t tell me that another verse in the Bible is going to negate this one. The Bible will never contradict itself. If the Bible ever did contradict itself then that would mean the Bible is lying. And if the Bible lies which it doesn’t, then I couldn’t trust it and no longer would I want to be a Christian because I will not follow after a lie. I have also heard a preacher say one time, oh John that letter to the Hebrews only applies to the Hebrews so therefore it doesn’t apply to us today. Well I must say if anyone is going to take that stance my reply to that is, you need to take a big black marker and start marking out all of the Bible verses that were written to other people groups and the ones YOU THINK do not apply to us today. And the only thing you’re going to have left is the Book of John. And that would be the only thing that you’re allowed to preach out of.
Hebrews 10:26-31
[26]For if we go on SINNING WILLFULLY after receiving the knowledge of the truth, THERE NO LONGER REMAINS A SACRIFICE FOR SINS, (Note it does not say sacrifices, it says sacrifice, meaning one sacrifice, meaning the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.)
[27]but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
[28]Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
[29]How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, (Note he says the son of God , this is clearly referring to Jesus)
and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which HE WAS SANCTIFIED, (Note it says he WAS sanctified , meaning he is no longer sanctified)
AND HAS INSULTED THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30]For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
[31]It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ( Note he says the Lord will judge HIS people, that means anybody that considers them self a Christian.)
I hope and pray that you do not let pride get in your way, and except that what you have been teaching is wrong and going to be leading a lot of people to hell, I implore you to please repent and and ask God for forgiveness.
John, when you disagree with the views of others, it is never helpful to just say “You don’t believe the Bible” as you have hinted here. Even when you have a text which you think disproves the view of others, it is not that they are ignoring that text, but that they simply have a different understanding of that text than you do. Such is the case here.
I cannot speak for J.J., but here is my view on Hebrews 10:26-31: https://redeeminggod.com/no-sacrifice-for-willful-sin-is-left/
Yep!
I can sin all I want – but why would I want to?
I can sin all I want – but I cannot bypass the consequences that come with such a choice.
But I can sin all i want 🙂
…… and still have eternal live …. I agree with you 100%
Eternal live is a GIFT. Would I loose Eternal live as a consquence for my sin eternal live would be a probation and not a GIFT anymore.
you can sin yourself to hell
You didn’t read what Jeremy said with an open heart, Brother, so you can’t get it because you don’t want to!
Tom – that’s not what Jeremy – or Paul – is saying. It’s the other way around – we are saved from hell, forever made a child of God, so we are “free” to sin without sacrificing that position. But, should I choose as a child of God to do so, I am making a dumb choice. But as a believer in Jesus, I am forever free from hell, no matter what. I cannot out-sin God’s grace. But I can live like an idiot….
Sorry, but we are not “free to sin”, but “free from sin.” “To sin” means going towards, while “from sin” means moving away. Do you acually believe Jesus suffered on the cross, simply to allow us to live anyway we wanted to? We were already doing that, becouse of our sinful nature. What Jesus did on the cross, was to give us a way (the only way) to be free from our sinful nature, “free from sin”. Before Jesus’ death, we had no choice. We were slaves to sin. And for people who say, “all you need is to believe in jesus ” I have to ask, “if thats true, then what about the devil and his demons” I bet they have more faith in Jesus then either you or I, but they’re still going to hell. Why? Becouse they too, were “free to sin” and they chose not to turn “from sin”.
crosstheology.wordpress.com/conditional-security/
there is no such thing as once saved always saved. Do not deceive yourselves but read the letters of Paul
I believe that once saved, is always saved. If our salvation depends *in any way* on our flesh – and in that I include behaviour, belief, anything we can *do* or *think* that will somehow negate our salvation – then what right do we have to rejoice in our salvaiton?
Because if there is any way we can lose our salvation by something we do or think, then it’s a shaky salvation indeed. and we would have no cause to rejoice in such a salvation.
But, praise God, its *He* who is in charge of my salvation! From the moment I accepted Him, it became His responsibility to look after my interests in the salvation stakes.
It’s up to Him to transform me, up to Him to lead me; all I need to do is to follow and obey. The trips and falls I suffer on my way will never, can never, make me lose my salvation. Would you send your toddler son off to be punished for stumbling as he learns to walk? I think not….how much more, then, will Father God be gracious and patient with his children?
“Amazing love, immense and free | For O, my God, it found out me!”
Tony, What a beautiful response. I wish all Christians thought like you.
Thank you – I’m honoured! 🙂
By his definitition, that means I could ask Jesus into my heart at a church camp, make a concious decision to leave the church, spend my entire life raping and murdering children, get shot down by my drug dealer for stealing, and then appear before God where he tells me: “Well done my good and faithful servant!” And then I get to go experience paradise right next to Elijah himself. That doesn’t seem a bit off to you? I would argue that part of accepting Christ is trying to look more like Him. If you stop doing that: not in a moment of weakness, but in a concious decision, you are saying: I want sin, not a relationship with you. It’s like if I said: “stay in the car and I’ll get you through this” and then you opened the door and jumped out.
Wesley, sorry it looks as if I am replying to my own comment, but the ‘layers’ or reply-to-reply-to-reply have been exhausted.
Yes, it does seem very ‘off’ to me – as Jeremy puts in his article, the whole concept simply beggars our minds especially as they are conditioned to the ‘you get what you deserve’ mindset. However your comments are spot on and your questions well put.
My take on it is this, for what it’s worth. While I agree that we can in fact sin all we want, provided we are prepared to accept the consequences, I would hope that the transforming power of Holy Spirit would make us, by degrees or in large jumps, more like Christ. This, I would argue would make us less likely to sin in the ways you describe – less likely, but it would not be completely impossible. Hopefully, though, you would not wish to impose that sort of suffering on others.
But that’s for you and me, people with rational, normal mindsets. For someone with, say, a serious mental illness or perhaps with some deep-seated hurts or damage, who knows what they’ll do? Maybe someone who needs deep-seated healing may, despite being in Christ, may be able still to do horrific things. But then we are all capable of horrific things, never mind illness or hurt. So I would think that the more Christlike we become the less inclined to sin we become, *and* wishing to less as well. When we see that it’s not just us that sin hurts, and others too, but also we feel Jesus’s compassion for others, our inclination is not to wish to inflict that suffering on us or them.
But still the choice – to stay in the car, or to jump out, as in your excellent example, is ours. That’s what extravagant grace means. True freedom – but sin still costs if we choose that path. I hope that makes sense….I’m typing this kinda late!
Hey Tony, well said. Agree 100%. It reminded me of this verse:
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
If one can do something to lose salvation, how would it be possible to avoid being consumed with fear? And thus being perfected in Love would not be possible.
And yet that’s not what the early church believed.
The concept of once saved always saved takes a bit to get your head around but Gods grace is greater than our sin and greater than our good works it just takes faith in Jesus Christ to recieve Gods grace.In saying that to continue to sin as a christian is like playing with fire you will be burnt.Paul talks of the sexual immorality in corinthian church of the son and father that were sleeping with the same wife they were excommunicated from the church the members were not allowed to even eat with them until they repented.There are consequences for our actions.The other side to this is that if you continue to sin as a christian you are not walking by faith but walking by the flesh and are really backsliding.In the backslidden state you also become powerless and open to attack by satan as long as we walk in the flesh he can influence us to get worse not better.If we are walking in Christ satan may still try to tempt us but we are empowered by the holy spirit and overcome him and our faith increases.Both are saved by grace but one is powerless because of sin versus saved but an overcomer having been set free from sin i think this is what Paul was trying to explain.It is better to be an overcomer than overcome by sin.brentnz
Tom – thanks for the response. Read the article; disagree with the position and his interpretation of the verses he uses, but I’m not gonna hijack Jeremy’s post to discuss it. Of course if a person does not believe “Once-saved always -saved” will conclude we can, in fact, sin themselves to hell. So, thanks, and let’s here leave it at “we disagree”
Very gracious responses here, Roger. Thank you!
yup I agree 🙂 but it is dangerous, be all warned please and be honest with God while reading the Bible 🙂
If our salvation can be lost at some point, then that means it is based on what we do and not what God had already done. That line of thinking is not the Gospel, that is legalism. It is the same way that the Pharisees thought. Our salvation is not based on us, it’s based on Jesus. Grace is greater than works any day of the week.
Yup
Historically – including the Early Church – most Christians have believed a true believer can apostatize. It’s abundantly easy to show this in Scripture.
Show us.
Once saved always saved. Everyone was saved from the beginning, it just took a true act of love and a then understanding of sacrifice for us to finally realise it. This is not a dangerous way of thinking at all and I admire and adhere to the way Jeremy thinks and the type of God he is understanding. A much nicer god than yours I can imagine. Good day.
The way I always understood it was that if you take God’s grace and love as a license to sin, then you might not be a son or daughter, you have deceived yourself in to thinking that you are one of his adopted children. That’s kind of the answer I got from past teachers. I like the way you explain it here.
You are right that this is the way it is often taught. But think about it … would you ever say such a thing to your son or daughter? “If you displease me, it proves you are no daughter of mine!” So also, God says nothing of the sort to us.
Instead, when we sin and fall short, He steps into our mess with us, to love us, forgive us, and bring us out of the muck and mire. That’s what love does.
No. If my son sinned against me I would forgive if he repented. Could I forgive him if he continually sinned as he was apologizing? Of course not because it’s obvious he doesn’t mean it. God states no adulterers will be in heaven 1 Corinthians 6:9. Saved or not if I’m living in adultery I am an adulterer. Hence I cannot get into heaven or God is lying. Just because you say you love Christ doesn’t take the label adulterer from you unless you repent first…turn from it. Repentance and obedience are not works. There will be millions of surprised people one day who believe they’re going to be in adultery, pornography or in unrepentant sin and headed to heaven. That’s simply not biblical. John 15 states if we live Him we will abide in Him. So if I sin and don’t abide in Him I don’t love Him but I get to heaven? How can I be allowed to get into heaven if I’ve proved by John 15 I don’t love Him? Osas is a false teaching. Repentance is necessary. If not then the entire book of acts and any verse stating obey needs to be omitted from Gods word.
The question is, if we still wish to go on sinning then have we really understood the message. Are we not told that we are to die to tha ways of the world and become new creations. Yes, He will still love us and keep trying to reach us and change us. But will a just God place our name in the book of life if we do not bother to change our ways? Are we not to be reborn ? He is always willing to forgive but if we continue (deliberately) in sin are we not rejecting that forgiveness ?
Matthew, no, we probably have not understood it, but I don’t think we can understand the full message fully right from the start. This is what growing in grace and sanctification is all about.
Have a look at Jeremy’s articles on CHARIZOMAI forgiveness and APHESIS forgiveness. Much of the misunderstanding about forgiveness may be cleared up.
I love what you write and share even if sounds so very scandalous. I can’t help but feel very identified with the way you see God and His grace, but you have made me realise how much bigger this grace is
Thanks, Pat. Very little of this is original with me either. I have learned so much from so many other people. We’re all on this journey together!
Very good. Needs to be said. I used to tell folks that the scripture – ‘you are free but don’t use your freedom as an occasion to the flesh’ must mean that we could.
Right! Excellent point!
And also means that if we do – we’ll be damned.
Then you’re not a Bible believer. You may use the Bible, but you don’t believe it.
(Sigh)
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
“Now the works of the flesh are evident . . . . I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19, 21)
“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. . . . You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. . . . For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” (Romans 8:5, 9, 13)
“But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6)
“But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. . . . Outside [the New Jerusalem] are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” (Revelation 21:8; 22:15)
Andy,
It doesn’t do a whole lot of good to just quote Bible verses. I call that “Shotgun hermeneutics.”
Everyone here believes the entire Bible. I believe 100% in the truth of those verses you quote. I am sure that Craig does as well.
So rather than assume that we are ignorant of certain verses in the Bible, you should assume instead that we are aware of such texts, but just understand them differently.
Damned by the god you worship; not the Abba Father Jesus describes.
Jeremy,
I came across your blogs the other day as I was searching for help on how to get all these thoughts out of my head and out for others to hear.
I’ve very glad I did and I look forward to knowing you better.
Regarding this post, well, I think that Jesus said the same thing with different works in both Matthew 7:24-27 and in the parable of the soils in Matthew 13 (3rd and 4th soils).
In Matthew 7 one house is built upon the rock – it experiences the same storms as the other house, but withstands the storms BECAUSE it’s built upon the rock of Jesus – yield to Him and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
The other house… not so much. Like the third soil the cares of the world consume this BELIEVER and what he is worried about, concerned with and concentrating on gets wiped out by the storms. (rewards lost 1 Cor 3:10-15)
In both passages, Matthew 7 and Matthew 13 (3rd and 4th soil) HEARD the message. Not everyone can hear the message, but these did. But, not everyone that hears the message will yield to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit was NOT sent to “help” us do something better or faster… He was sent to do what we can’t. He’s not a friend helping us cut wood, He’s a fireman pulling us out of a mangled car.
Josh Felts and Josh Hunt – I found this article helpful re our discussions last Sunday.
Great article! Grace allows us to focus away from sin… to no longer give sin our energy.
I grew up in a sin-management church… people were constantly running to the altar, insecure, checking their salvation. They inadvertently gave sin a lot of focus and energy.
Being saved is about life, not about avoiding death.
I love that phrase “sin management.” That is what much of religion is… just a way to manage sin until we get to heaven. But God wants so much more for us than just a list of “dos” and “don’ts.”
is it wrong to say to other’s don’t do this or do this? Did Jesus or God forbid that “dos” and “dont’s”? or to say Do not sin aside from live a righteous life? Please explain, where in the scripture that you should not tell people a do’s and don’ts. Is it not the scriptures in the NT tells a lot of that?
Rey i assume your married but is your relationship about the dos and donts its about showing your love to your wife not rules if it is theres something wrong.In the same way with Jesus its about the relationship we want to please him in what we think what we do so that we give him the glory.brentnz
If you are truly converted and say you have faith in in Christ, you shouldn’t want to sin. Repent means to turn away from sin. After conversion will we sin? Yes, but we should feel remorse and sorrow for sinning. A good tree doesn’t bear bad fruit. Neither should someone who has faith in Christ want to sin.
Love what you’re writing here because it is taking unconditional grace seriously. And in reality I think that is our experience ..that sin doesn’t immediately remove us from God’s grace. But what would your thoughts be on 1 John 3.1-10?
I don’t want to sin because I love the Light. But if I do sin It is powerless to keep me from returning to the Light, and with Gods help, remain in the Light.
Yes! In Christ, we are new creations, and sin no longer has a hold on us.
…… and still have eternal live …. I agree with you 100%
Eternal live is a GIFT. Would I loose Eternal live as a consquence for my sin eternal live would be a probation and not a GIFT anymore.
Hi Paolo, I agree that Eternal Life is a gift but is not merely a theology or a something but a SOMEONE. ETERNAL LIFE is Jesus. See 1 John 1:2 –
“The LIFE appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you THE ETERNAL LIFE, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.”
Mandy Joye
Thanks for risking the wrath of the moralists to bring clarity to the good news of God’s grace. I’m fairly new to this but will agree it is life giving and transforming. The question I love to ask people these days is, “Do we have permission to sin?” I love to watch their faces as you can see their minds coming to grip with the reality of complete forgiveness.
For those who rush to Romans 6, my response is that Paul is not asking about license to sin. He is asking “should we sin…” The answer to that is definitely no. Why would we want to now that we have real life? But to experience that from our new, redeemed, noble heart, we must understand that we are free to sin. That’s why I ask the different question from Paul, about permission.
John good question thats why i like this site because you can ask questions like that and not be judged for even thinking it.We should discuss these issues if we feel threatened by these questions our faith is nt very secure.brentnz
Romans 6.15-16
“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?”
Charles, Yes, I mentioned Romans 6 briefly in the article. I agree with what Paul is saying. Notice that he does not say, “If you keep sinning, God will reject you.” No, he says that “Sin leads to slavery, and why would you want to return to slavery?” That is exactly the point I make in the post.
Whoever knowingly, intentionally, recklessly and willfully continues in sin may never have known God in the first place. If they did know God initially, they have fallen away and drifted from the knowledge of God and face the risk of being eternally cast away from His presence just as Jesus repeatedly said. (Matthew 7:21-24, Luke 13:23-30).
Grace does not eliminate the consequences of sinning after we have come to know the truth. Grace is not salvation. Grace teaches a new lifestyle in Christ that does not treat sin lightly or glibly -Titus 2:11-14, Ephesians 2:8-10.
“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?” Hebrews10:26-29
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” Hebrews 6:4-6
Charles,
Anyone can quote Scriptures verses (Even the devil! – Luke 4:10-11). The real issue is what these verses mean.
In other posts on this blog, I have dealt with several of these texts you quote, showing that they do not say what you seem to think they say.
Re Matthew 7:21-24, see https://redeeminggod.com/good-fruits-good-works/
Re Hebrews 10:26-29, see https://redeeminggod.com/no-sacrifice-for-willful-sin-is-left/
Re Hebrews 6:4-6, see https://redeeminggod.com/sermons/hebrews/hebrews_6_1-8/
Yes Charles you’re correct. Any man can read Gods word and comprehend it. It was written so even a simple man could understand it. It’s those that have another agenda that twist it to cover for their sin. There are no loopholes in Gods word for a sinner to choose said sin over Christ and enter heaven. This site teaches happy go lucky false salvation theology. John 15 proves this. If we love Him we will abide in Him. How can we get into heaven if we don’t love Him? We can’t. Great news! Those pesky Ten Commandments are meant for the real sinners. Not us saved people. Repentance and obedience are simply not works. They’re called love.
Is it possible to lose one’s faith? How would this affect what is being proposed here?
In love
Yes, we can lose faith. But even if we become faithless, He remains faithful (2 Tim 2:13). While there is much to lose by losing faith (such as intimacy with God and seeing Him at work in our life), God still remains faithful to His promises toward us.
Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I’m struggling between the interpretation you’re bringing and Matthew 7:13-14 – the bit about entering through the narrow gate (I’d always assumed the narrow gate meant Jesus – are you OK with that?) So if you depart from a path that is Jesus centred/focussed I don’t see how the “grace lasts forever and has no rules” proposal still holds true given this passage. There does seem to be a consequence from veering away from the straight and narrow path – is that a reasonable way to think?
In love
Jeremy i believe the verse is talking of Christ being the narrow gate the world believes there are many paths that lead to God that is the wide path the scriptures are quite clear that there is only way to the father and that is through his son.The word says if you believe in Jesus Christ you have eternal life so you are saved from that point regardless of your actions its a gift not based on either good works or bad ones.If you fall away in your faith and give yourself to sinful desires that doesnt effect your eternal life in Christ what it does effect is that you become a slave to sin. The word says love the Lord with all your heart mind and strength we are called to be overcomers not slaves to sin.brentnz
Hi Kelvin — yes, there are many consequences of falling away but they do not meant losing your future in the beautiful, majestic restored earth (I hate all that talk of heaven — as if that`s where we`ll spend eternity!) ; those consequences mean — as Jeremy said — losing intimacy with your Dad, and all the other trouble that comes with it (not being able to hear His voice as he is warning you of dangers, opening a door to evil spirits as you sin, doing things with your time in a way that is not helpful or healthy for you, and many many more). But hey — sometimes ‘losing the faith’ is the greatest thing that can happen to you, especially if you, like I used to, think that God is with you only when you`re being good!
Once I started meeting with him in my darkness and ‘falling away’ I began to fall IN LOVE with Him! He is just…great; He loves and cares about your heart far more than he cares about your deeds ( the reason for his warning against bad deeds is that they can open a door to our enemy and harm us in other ways — that`s all! Again – its out of LOVE! ); he has moved heaven and earth so that you would never be lost — now THAT’S the father heart of God, and that’s the Person religion hates the most!
All the best bro!
George
What bothers me is grace more abounds so we can overcome, crucify the old man, and bury him. What no one mentions is sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2) and those who sin deliberately chose to be separate from Him. God’s love was demonstrated by sending His Son to the Cross to satisfy His wrath and punishment of sin. When we sin, we demonstrate our love for ourselves, and when we seek grace, we love Him.
Anyone who has someone cheat on them should understand how God feels when we sin, we are choosing to please us first, God has no part. Remember, John mentioned to the Israelites about bearing fruits worthy of repentance, and Paul said about godly sorrow leads to repentance. Who do you love more, if you love yourself, you will seek sin. If you love and seek God, you will adore grace and be dead to sin.
Nellie,
I am not sure whether are you agreeing or disagreeing with the point of the post. But regardless, I pretty much agree with you.
Yes, grace abounds so that we can overcome our sinful tendencies.
And yes, sin separates us from God, but I would say that it separate us from fellowship with God, not from a relationship with God.
You use the illustration of cheating. If a man cheats on his wife, he permanently damages and maybe even destroys the ability they have to be intimate with each other in the future, and to have close fellowship. Even when forgiveness is extended, things will never be exactly the same. But the relationship (from God’s perspective anyway) can never be severed, no matter what. Even a certificate of divorce does not erase the marriage from God’s perspective.
This is what it is like in God’s family. We can sin, and we can cheat on God, but this does not erase the fact that we are His sons and daughters. It will, however, hinder or separate us from the ability to have close fellowship with God in the future (but that is what confession and repentance are for!).
My fear is that reconciliation is painful, to the point that one who has sinned heavily after being saved will be forever unwilling to undergo the process, especially after having been so weakened (damaged) by the sin.
That’s my story, potentially – lifelong hardhead (hard agnostic with New Agey leanings) found by God and Christ under difficult circumstances. Waffled for months. Accepted and got cleansed, didn’t give up old ways. Got chewed up and spit out (if not by God, then by the enemy). Now in darkness and depression; loved but separated, unable/unwilling to do whatever painful things I need to do to be reconciled. It stinks. (And I can imagine the burning of 1 Cor 3:13 will be no less unpleasant.)
Maybe I’m here just to serve as a cautionary tale. But I keep praying for guidance and healing, even though what I really need is a miracle. Maybe some miracles happen in slow motion.
Brian what is impossible for man is possible to God you may feel that you cant and that is a good starting part tell God that and then rely on the holy spirit to do what you cant because in him we can do all things.God loves you no matter what you have done look at paul he killed Christians murdered them and God forgave him was it hard for him i would expect so the guilt of his past must have affected him somehow.But it didnt stop him from moving forward. brent
Brian –
I felt the same way at one point in my life. I had fallen into promiscuity after God had been so gracious to me. I’d think things like “I don’t deserve fellowship with God” While that’s true, it didn’t stop God from wanting fellowship with me again. It took about 2 1/2 years after turning from sin for me to believe that God was willing to restore me. I didn’t realize that God was anxiously wanting to restore me back while I was still sinning. Reading passages like Luke 15 helped. God isn’t at all begrudging in his willingness to take you back. He’s searching for you like a lost sheep. He’s longing to embrace you and throw a party. If God can help me, He can help anyone.
I’d recommend trying not to be a lone ranger Christian. Isolation doesn’t help. Getting involved in church small groups and setting appropriate boundaries and distance with people who would tempt me helped a lot.
<3
I agree with the post Jeremy there will be many of those works based salvation folks fall under Matthew even when they use it to justify their misguided perspective “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Here we see that those on trail point to their works “Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many might works in your name?” If these great prophets cannot save themselves who can be saved…only those who humble themselves before the lord. Those who claim otherwise are the wolves in sheep’s clothing as even the Mormon’s do good works (don’t drink/teach no sex before marriage etc…) but they do not believe the gospel and are not saved. I didn’t truly feel the love of God until I understood this.
We have just finished a series in our church about putting “guardrails” in our lives to protect ourselves from sin (with some comments that implied that we all want to sin) Although at first glance this seems logical and is perhaps even beneficial the one thing that stood out to me was that if a person, like your article states, truly understands God’s love and redeeming Grace in their lives, our hearts should be such that we are then grieved at the thought of sinning at all. We can set boundaries in areas that we might struggle with but if our hearts desire is that we still really want to sin then we need to pray for God to work on the root of that. It is a continuous process of course but it comes from a place of truly grasping God’s love and grace for us and trusting that He does know what is best.
Perceptive comments, Marla.
I would say also, beware of the ‘guard rails’. While I’m sure they are setting those up with the best of intentions, only too soon it will expand into something more constricting. When to ‘guidelines’ become ‘rules’? The distinction is blurred and this is how the Yeast of the Pharisees finds its way through the dough – slowly and insidiously.
Keep your eyes on Him, study Galatians once more, and don’t let them take away your freedom!
I’ve thought about this over and over and it’s like “what are you guys saying?” It’s like we’re going backwards. We’re either living by the law or by grace. Because the last time I checked Jesus didn’t always follow the law yet the implication coming from preachers sometimes is that we need to follow the law or exceed it. If the law says don’t drink, rest on Sunday (or the sabbath, one of the ten commandments) or don’t touch lepers, or tithe, give offerings, or anything you wanna add then Jesus certainly didn’t follow all of it and even broke it, it would seem. So to me it doesn’t mean (at least in my own life) that I’m not going to work or go to church or whatever but I don’t have nearly as much faith in these things as I have in what happened on the cross. Some of these things seem like”small” sins and many “big”. Sometimes we can be real stupid either in ignorance or knowingly but no matter which it is I need my Savior. As Paul said (paraphrasing) that I might be found not having my own righteousness but Christ’s (see Phil 3). So I’ll think I’ll go ahead and have some “beer” and hope in my Savior.
Peace
PS
If you want to correct me first know that I’m not saying I’m going to do everything I want even as I hear the Holy Spirit telling me not to. So for example if I were tempted to steal something (and I don’t steal by the way) I’m not going to go ahead and start stealing knowing God doesn’t want me to. Sometimes we do dumb things and sometimes we do things that are “smart” or even “holy”. But holiness means purity and you can’t be 99% pure and just have a little dirt. As I’ve heard elsewhere you can’t have just a little pee in your coffee. Or you can’t stumble in one point as James puts it. So I’ll just go ahead and put all my “holiness” and “unrighteousness” under the blood of Jesus. As I said before I’m going to have my “beer” and the Holy Spirit might convict me about it or He might not. Whether He does or doesn’t and whether I respond positively or not, I can thank God I’m going to remain His child. That’s what I call good news.
PEACE
Apparently my comment before my PS wasn’t saved. If it was saved you can disregard the rest of this. I was just saying that the law includes tithing, giving offerings, not touching lepers, not drinking alcohol, resting on the sabbath (one of the ten commandments) among many other things. These few things I listed are only one version that many people believe in since not everyone agrees on what the law is. My point was that Jesus seemingly broke some of these things and I often hear preachers saying “grace is not a license to sin” and the implication is that we have to live by the law or exceed it. However if Jesus drank I think I’m going to drink too or do whatever else is in my heart whether it’s stupid or not. I want to like Paul not have a righteousness of my own but Christ’s (my paraphrase, see Phil 3). I’m going to trust what happened on the cross and put my faith in Jesus and not any of my works. That’s what grace means to me. As such it “is a license to sin in a way” as the author put it.
I love this! I completely agree with you! I was just talking with someone about this. Grace, technically does give us a license to sin, but why would we want to!? It’s like asking a freed slave if he wants to be sold back into slavery. It makes no sense when understood properly.
Exactly right. When you truly understand sin and grace, grace teaches us that sin is slavery, but if we really want to go back to slavery and all the pain it brings, then fine, go right ahead.
I told a friend of mine who was an elder at our church that he should preach a message called ” go ahead and sin if you want”, which I based my thought process on exactly the same thing you are saying here.
The Primitive Baptist teach what is called “time” salvation, which is similar to this as well.
I’m reformed (5 pt Calvinist) and i can see that you are not, so anxious to study some of your thoughts.
Great article. How to we reconcile Mathew 5 -8 with this?
I think there is little knowledge of what the Gift of eternal live is. IT IS A GIFT.
It is the SPIRIT OF GOD IN US – In other words it was born of God – It is a new Creation- It is the real “YOU” you become once you receive the gift of eternal live by accepting/believing the fact that Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word of God paid your sin debt in full. At that moment you are born again – born of God – a new regenerated Spirit WHICH CAN NOT SIN. That new YOU has inherited eternal live because it is part of God himself – IT IS LIVE . The flesh will die because it was born in sin. The flesh had never a chance to inherit eternal live because it was born in sin – that is was born dead. Think about it: God used dead dust to form Adam and planted the tree of life to keep him alive ….. but that is a different topic 🙂
Read John 1:11 – 13 carefully.
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
First we were born of the will of the flesh and of men. People are conceived and born because male and female humans have sex. God doesn’t force us to multiply. He doesn’t even determine whether a new creature is born male or female, blond or red headed, tall or small, …. he leaves that in the hands of the genes carried by the parents. Read Jeremiah 1:5 It clearly says that God FORMS us using the information he finds at the time of conception. And that Information carries diseases and sin. That is the reason we sin, even after being born of God, born again. It is the flesh to commit sin NOT YOUR SPIRIT – and that is the reason that you can not loose your Eternal live. Sin will compromise your rewards and Salvation ( saved from troubles and heartaches, deliverance ….. ) but eternal live is as secure as God is gracious to grant one his spirit as a GIFT the moment she/he believes.
having said that can one sin as much as she/he wants without loosing Eternal live?
YES, but be aware that one reaps what he saw.
Paul makes it very clear and admonishes people to live by the spirit and not the flesh.
Right! You are exactly correct here. Eternal life is a gift and must remain so. Therefore, we can sin all we want, BUT sin often has damaging and destructive consequences, and so we must recognize that if we go sin, we are only hurting ourselves.
So can you go sin all you want? Yes … just like you can go stick your hand in a blender if you want.
Great post!
I have only recently come to share your view of the atonement and God’s great love for us. There is one particular besetting sin in my life that I have been comitting over and over and over again for years, and it is certainly damaging to my life. I really think the constant fear I was in of being under God’s anger for it helped to keep me in the loop. I now have a pretty severe anxiety disorder–and at the same time, now believing more firmly in the great love God has for me, I really want to repent and be done with that sin. Does God ever abandon His own children to sin even when they sincerely desire to change as a punishment for staying in it so long? I know that might seem a silly question in light of what I just said, but old beliefs and fears die hard. I need to know forsure that God hasn’t given up on me and will ve helping me in this… Thsnks a ton!
Joey
Joey Jesus came to set us free and wants us to live an abundant life if you are struggling with sin and feel tempted to sin just tell God you are weak our biggest stumbling block mine included was my pride i didnt want to admit i couldnt do it in my own strength and yet that is where the victory is knowing that we cant and knowing that in him we can.When we know that we then become overcomers in Christ thats who we are.We dont have to fight the sin we just accept that Christ has overcome our sins on our behalf thats how i dealt with my sin and when i am tempted i say Lord you know i am weak but i am trusting in your strength to help through your holy spirit and he does.This is one of my favoriote verses may you be set free in Jesus name.Sin shall not have dominion over you brentnz
My wife is about to end our marriage. This causes me great pain. I understand that grace will cover the sin of divorce, and I get that it will cover the sin of adultery when she meets and marries someone else and has the perfect happiness that SHE wants. I struggle with the fact that there will be no consequence. She says that she believes in Christ and that God wants her to be happy so it’s ok for her to do what she is doing because there will be no consequences, saved is saved. I can’t make the decision for her. I can only follow God and his word for my life. The point I am trying to make is that if she wants to wilfully sin, she is going to be in eternal bliss with Christ and if I endeavour to follow Christ and his example, I am going to the same place. It really does not matter! Talking about blessings being removed, for the limited period of time that we have on this earth, is really then a small price to pay, for then an eternity of blessing through salvation. But it’s Gods rules and not mine. I encourage everybody to choose Gods way and follow his word, but if you don’t and want to sleep around, do drugs, find someone better than your partner when you feel like it and say you are a follower of Christ, I guess I’ll see you in heaven and I thank you for your contribution to his kingdom.
There are consequences for sin. Great and serious consequences. It sounds like you are experiencing some of these, for which I am sorry. The pain is terrible. But regardless, God knows that we are broken people, and he will not take away our eternal life or kick us out of His family because of our sin. None of us would do this to our children either. Instead, we grieve with them through their pain and suffering, remind them that they are loved, and urge them to learn from this painful experience so that it can be avoided in the future.
Ade i feel for your situation may our Lord strengthen you with his grace and may you rest in his loving embrace through this trial that you are going through.Your partner has chosen her own path that is not the Lords way thats the fleshs way all we can do is put all our trust in him even when it makes no sense.She will suffer for her choices we all do even though God forgives us and that we are saved.You cant sin and not get burnt.brentnz
Can you get saved and then later decide to live in unrepentant sin and tell God that you no longer believe in him and don’t want to go to heaven, even if there is one, and still be saved?
There are apparently two main answers to that question. Yes and no. Everyone should decide for themselves how to answer it after a very thorough reading of scripture. I would suggest reading the Bible through at least twice and the NT a couple of additional times before attempting to answer that burning question.
The profligate grace side is well-represented here so I’ll be a contrarian and say that after much study of his Word, I lean to the “No” side. Ultimately, God will decide and that’s the opinion that really matters. It should also motivate us to choose wisely and carefully. I won’t go into a detailed discussion of this here but I’ll just point out that Paul asked in Romans 6 “How can we who died to sin still live in it? It follows that if we are living in it with abandon, we are no longer dead to it. We are very much alive to it and maybe even enjoying it. When we left sin through faith in Christ we became his slaves and inherited eternal life. If we abandon our saving faith in Christ, we return to being slaves to unrighteousness and produce the fruit which leads to death.
Jesus told a chilling parable about a man who gave his servants different amounts of talents. When the man came back for a reckoning, one guy made excuses and admitted that he hadn’t done anything with the opportunity he had been given. I don’t know what he was doing but he certainly wasn’t doing anything the Master approved of. What happened to him? He not only lost his reward, but he lost his salvation as well. You would really have to stretch to interpret Mt. 25:30 any other way. In fact, read it in the context of the whole chapter.
30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Heck, even if that’s not hell, that’s sure not the way I want to spend eternity. Who would take that risk? You’ll have to excuse me. I’m one of those guys who takes very seriously what Jesus has to say because one day I’m going to have to stand in front of him and give an account for what I did with what he said. I’ve never heard a single excuse for rejecting Jesus, giving myself over to sin, and not repenting that I would want to try out on him on that day. All those fake licenses to sin will be revoked. But hey, like they say, you CAN just go sin all you want.
Matthew 25:14-30 has nothing to do with church age doctrine. The context of Matthew 24 and 25 is the tribulation period which will take place after the church is taken up in the rapture. The context is those faithful to God during the tribulation. It has nothing to do with a person being saved, baptized into the body of Christ, indwelt and sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. It says nothing about a person who got saved and then later decided to live in unrepentant sin and tell God that they no longer believe in him and don’t want to go to heaven.
Romans 6:1-10 is a doctrinal in nature.
Being dead to sin is not something you accomplish. It’s not something you enter into or can exit. When a person is saved they are baptized into the body of Christ. They are baptized into Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection. Being dead to sin is the state of all believers the very moment they get saved. In verse 11 Paul tells us to “reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin”. Our reckoning does make us dead to sin. That’s already an established fact based on the truths of verses 1-7. We reckon because we are already dead to sin. You’re dead to sin whether you reckon it or not. Paul is telling us our identity is that we are Christ and one of the benefits of being in Christ is that we are dead to sin! Can a believer fall into sin. Sure, but it’s no longer our master so stay in sin. You didn’t make yourself dead to sin and you can’t become undead to sin just like Bible specifically tells us about being born again, but it never mentions being unborn. It specifically tells us we are baptized into the body of Christ, but it never mentions leaving the body of Christ. It specifically tells us we are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit, but it never mentions anything about an unsealing.
We must heed Paul’s instructions to “study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). Part of studying and rightly dividing the word of truth includes reading passages of scripture in their context. We can’t lift verses or portions of a verse out of context and try to force it into our own personal viewpoints.
Nowhere in the NT does it say that we no longer have to pay attention to what Jesus had to say because he died. There is an element of “last call for the Jews” in his ministry but he knew what their response would be and that he was addressing a wider audience of those who would be in the “church age”.
“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.” John 10
I am listening to his voice and I follow what he said in the gospels. Your view allows you to pick and choose what you think applies to the “church age” among all of Jesus’ teachings. That just gives you a license to error.
Jesus constantly calls and warns his servants to be faithful and to be watching for when he comes. In Mt 25, the virgins are the bride of Christ. Half of them did not get admitted into the kingdom. Jesus is warning all of his followers in the church age, “You had better be ready and be about my Father’s business when I return or you will be left behind.”
Craig, you have not provided nearly enough evidence to cause me to let my guard down and count on the theory that no matter what I do or don’t do I can expect to be rewarded by Jesus with eternal life. There is not enough evidence in the entire Bible to convince me of that. You can believe what you want and you will be held accountable for it. But I would caution you to be very careful about teaching others that they can slack off and expect to be rewarded and that they don’t have to pay attention to Jesus’ teachings and warnings. If anything, the warnings would have less applicability to the tribulation age when Christians are being killed right and left for their faith. The lackadaisical lazy ones will prefer to take the mark of the beast.
Of course Romans 6 is doctrine but I don’t think you understand it. If we are dead to sin whether we like it or not, then we don’t have to reckon that we are. Why do you think Paul admonished us, 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
If Christians were automatically and forever dead to sin, there would be no need for that warning. You are a slave of the one you obey (v. 16) so if you begin to obey sin again, you become it’s slave again and that leads to death. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
We have been set free from sin and our responsibility as Christians is to work together with Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit to stay that way, slaves of God. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. If you are not being sanctified, you are not being saved. That’s the rightly divided truth within the context of the whole Word of God.
Yes, Jesus knew the nation of Israel would reject Him. I never said we shouldn’t pay attention to Jesus (you’re injecting your own thoughts here again). Jesus knew the Jews would reject Him and He knew His plans for the church and He knew He would choose Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles. There are many spiritual truths and principles in the Gospels and they are of great benefit to us, but doctrinal truths for the church were given by Jesus to us through the Apostle Paul. Truths that you continually ignore.
Matthew 25 is not for the church. The context is the tribulation and the church will be gone. Those who are faithful during this time will be allowed into the millennial kingdom and those who aren’t faithful will be damned. That is not the gospel as laid out in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.
All Christians are dead to sin until the day they die. Being dead to sin doesn’t mean you can’t sin. It means you don’t have to sin because sin is no longer your master. Verses 11 and 12 aren’t warnings as much as they are exhortations to walk like the person you really are. Romans 6:16 says “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?”, but in the next two verses Paul thanks God because “ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (the gospel) which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. He then ends the chapter with “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Note it is everlasting and eternal life. If you can lose it then it’s not everlasting and eternal.
We do have many responsibilities as Christians We are to walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We are to renew our minds. We are to study God’s word and pray and many other things, but we never do anything to hold onto to our salvation because Jesus is doing that.
“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” (Romans 5:9-10)
Martin, I would caution you to stop posting untruths. For instance you said “But I would caution you to be very careful about teaching others that they can slack off and expect to be rewarded and that they don’t have to pay attention to Jesus’ teachings and warnings.” I’ve never said anything about people slacking off or not paying attention to what Jesus said. As a matter of fact I said in another post that the Holy Spirit has been given to us to, guide, teach, and convict us and if we continually resist Him, according Hebrews 12, God will bring chastening.
You said “Your view allows you to pick and choose what you think applies to the “church age” among all of Jesus’ teachings. That just gives you a license to error.” First of all these are not my views. One of the main tenets of rightly dividing the word is keeping verses in their context. This keeps a person from being deceived or mixed up in their doctrine like you are.
You talk as if you reverence Jesus, yet you continually tell us that what Jesus did on the cross was not enough to insure us of a completed salvation. Jesus said it is finished. You say it’s not. As I read your posts I think about Paul’s words to the Galatians.
Galatians 3
1. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
So you’re saying that the Son of God limited himself to being interpreted by the Apostle Paul? Paul considered himself a servant of Christ (Ro. 1:1) and would have never dared claim that his message superseded that of Jesus. You do amuse me, Craig. Do not allow proper principles of exegesis, hermeneutics, contextual and historical criticism, or let anything else deter you from what you have been led to believe.
Just because you don’t understand something or you disagree with it, doesn’t mean it is untrue. The Pharisees thought Jesus was speaking untruths to the extent that they wanted to kill him. I’m sure most people would agree that the purpose of a theological discussion is the elucidation of truth. No one should ever claim that they have a monopoly on it. I don’t try to force my beliefs on anyone. My careful study of God’s Word leads me to the conclusion, for example, that Mt 25 is for the Church. I guess you’ll have to wait until the tribulation to see who was right. Or you could start studying the Bible very carefully with an open mind and arrive at the correct interpretation much sooner.
All Christians are dead to sin as long as they reckon themselves dead to sin and desire to be so. “Admonitions” is probably the better word for verses 11 and 12. The point is that they would not be necessary if there were no danger of Christians presenting their members to sin or allowing sin to reign in their mortal bodies. Whomever we yield our members to is our master. Paul was a bond-servant of Jesus Christ and he wanted us to follow his example by yielding ourselves to Jesus and to righteous behavior. If we choose however, to yield ourselves to sin, and allow it to reign in us, then we are no longer servants of Jesus. He would consider us unfaithful servants and not admit us into his kingdom, saying he doesn’t know us.
I’m not trying to insult you, Craig, but you speak in a very authoritarian way for someone who has so many misunderstandings about the Bible. Whether you gain or lose eternal life has no effect upon it. You may seek eternal life with God, but if you don’t obtain it, it’s still eternal life. Everyone will spend their life eternally somewhere. I won’t quote Jesus because apparently you don’t believe that everything he says applies to you, but even Paul recognized how what we do affects our salvation.
Ro 2 6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
If people follow your advice and do nothing to hold onto their salvation in the many ways the Word enjoins us to, and do not obey truth, but unrighteousness, they will experience wrath and fury. I hope they listen to me instead and receive eternal life. Hebrews 12 tells us to follow Jesus’ example, who ran the race with endurance and endured the cross so that he could be seated with God. We need to know what Jesus did and what he taught so that we can follow his example. If we resist the discipline of the Lord and continue in our sin, we are in danger of reaching that point where we lose our salvation as is made clear in Hebrews 6 and in the verse I quoted to you earlier in chapter 12.
25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
Craig, you need to stop spending so much time trying to explain the scriptures away and start accepting their plain meaning in the context in which they were written. I really don’t think you understand the doctrine of salvation. It seems like you are a little hot right now but I suggest that you cool off first and then think very carefully about what the Bible is saying about it. When Jesus said, “It is finished..” he meant that his part of completing the sacrifice for our sin was finished. Of course I agree with that because, remember, I’m the one who believes that what he says, we in the Church today need to take seriously. What is not finished is our part. That is why Jesus, Paul, and other NT writers keep telling us to persevere.
Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called today, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end. Heb. 3:12-14
You even misapply the Bible when you try to insult people with it. In Galatians, Paul was addressing people who were bewitched by the false doctrine of salvation by obedience to the law rather than salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. No amount of works or obedience to the law will save us if we do not maintain our faith in Jesus. Circumcision doesn’t save anybody. I hope I’ve corrected your misconception on that point as well. Of course, Paul, as a believer in Jesus’ teachings, boldly preached the necessity of work. Look a little further in the book at 6:7-9.
7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.
God, by far plays the greatest role in our salvation, but he expects us to do our part. That’s why those conditional phrases keep popping up all over. IF we sow to the Spirit we will reap eternal life, IF we do not give up.
Look, Craig, I know it’s easy to get emotionally involved in theological discussions and I’m not judging you. I do enjoy talking about God’s word and I’m not easily offended. I think these conversations provide people an opportunity to think deeply about what they believe about salvation. Nothing is more important to get right. The consequences of you being wrong are far greater than vice versa since you believe, for example, that I’m saved no matter what. But if you tell people they can’t lose their salvation and they, as a result, resist or delay responding to God’s discipline and end up losing eternal life… Wow!!! What will Jesus say to you? I’m just saying, the stakes are very high my friend, make sure you’re getting this right.
Martin
You’re being untruthful and you’re doing for it all who read this blog to see.. I’ve never said “you CAN just go sin all you want”. That’s one of those strawmen you made up. A believer is dead to sin so sin is no longer our master. We have the life of Christ in the person of the Holy Spirit to lead, guide, and correct us. Even if a believer tried to sin “all they wanted” God would chastise them because that’s what He does do His children (Hebrews 12:6).
Did you read the title above? That’s what this discussion is about. Sin is not our master unless we allow it to be. God did not abolish our free will after we put our faith in Jesus. He still gives us the freedom not to be saved if that is what we desire. Hebrews 12 says that without holiness no one will see the Lord.
25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
Martin
1 Timothy 3:16 says “All scripture is given by inspiration of God”. All scripture … everything from Genesis to Revelation. This includes Paul’s epistles. Now, does what Paul teach supersede what Jesus taught? Yes, if it pertains to church age doctrine. It’s not that what Paul says is more important than what Jesus says because what Paul says is what Jesus told him to say. Paul tells us in Galatians 1:11-12 “But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
Matthew 25 is not talking about the church. Jesus is talking to His Jewish followers in Matthew 24 and 25 about the coming tribulation. The church will be gone during this time. If you try to make this church age doctrine then it contradicts what we read in Paul’s epistles and since Paul received his revelation from Jesus you would have Jesus contradicting Himself.
All Christians are dead to sin whether they reckon it so or not. That’s why Paul lays out the doctrinal truths in Romans 6:1-10 and then it’s only after explaining the doctrinal truths does he tell us to reckon it so. A Christian is dead to sin because of their position in Christ. It was accomplished by Christ, not by your reckoning. An example would be if you were penniless and someone put a million dollars into an account for you and they then inform you of this transaction. You can continue living as a pauper or you can reckon what the person has done for you as so and live like a millionaire. When you got saved you were baptized into the body of Christ. According to Romans 6 we were baptized in Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection. This is what makes us dead to sin.
In Romans 2 Paul is speaking to religious people who (like you) think they can work their way to heaven. Paul is telling them in verse 7 ” To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life”. In other words if you want to work your way to heaven then you must continually, without fail, do well …. which no one has done because later on he will say all have sinned. He is pointing out the impossibility of being saved by your works.
Hebrews 6 is pointing out the impossibility of losing your salvation because if you did lose it that would mean Jesus would have to be crucified again if you wanted to get your salvation back. Hebrews 6:4-6 ” For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” Jesus doesn’t have to be crucified again because “….by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us”(Hebrews 9:12).
Galatians 3: 3 says ” having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” That’s what you’re teaching; that even though a person begins in the Spirit they have to be made perfect by their fleshly efforts.
Martin you said ” What is not finished is our part. That is why Jesus, Paul, and other NT writers keep telling us to persevere”, yet Jude 1 tells us we are preserved in Jesus Christ and then in verse 24 ” Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy”. Paul tells us in Romans 5:9-10 ” ..being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life”. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 “… waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” In Philippians 1: 6 Paul tells us “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ”.
Galatians 6:8 says nothing about a person losing their salvation. It differentiates between those who sow to the flesh (the lost) and those who sow to the Spirit (saved). According to Romans 8 :5 Paul tells us “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.” In verse 9 he tells us ” But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” When we get saved we receive the Holy Spirit and are sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30). All Christians are in the Spirit and will be so unto the day of redemption because Jesus saves and keeps us saved.
Just a passing thought.
1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Craig, I’m glad you recognize that Paul learned his doctrine from Jesus. Heb 13 8 tells us that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. What did change when he died is that salvation, by God’s will, was made available to all mankind. He said that if he would be lifted up, he would draw all men to himself. So his Gospel was made applicable to a wider audience not to a smaller one as you are suggesting. You seem to want to limit the full impact of what he is teaching to the few years before his death and to a few years before the End. The disciples continued preaching the Gospel of Jesus after his death. He didn’t appear to them teaching them a different one. He didn’t teach Paul a different Gospel either. The Gospel Paul mentions in 1 Cor 15 4 is that Jesus was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve is the Gospel is the same one revealed to those to whom Jesus had preached. Paul informs us that he sought out those who had been with Jesus to confirm that this was the case. Gal 2 2 I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain. In other words, he wanted to verify that the Gospel he was preaching to the Gentiles was in line with the Gospel that Jesus had preached. The disciples approved of the message because Paul was preaching Jesus, and him crucified. The Gospel preached by both Jesus and Paul is about Jesus. It is about putting our faith in him for salvation and justification and not in the law or anything else. The Gospel is the salvation story preached and lived out by Jesus, the Messiah, as the Old Testament had prophesied. Paul preached Jesus, the Jesus who is the same always and forever.
2 Cor 11 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
I’d better stop before I get carried away, but the point is that Paul did not preach a different Gospel from that of his Master. He would have been scandalized to hear that people believed his message superseded that of Jesus. Do not be so quick to ignore inconvenient teachings of Jesus by relegating them to some very specific group and time. This is not the place to get into a debate about the tribulation so all I will say is at least be open to the possibility that Jesus was warning the Church to ready for persecution and be therefore prepared to endure to the end in the face of whatever might come.
Paul is saying that those who are dead to sin, can’t live in it. But Paul is addressing the possibility for Christians to become alive to sin again by living in it. If the death were irrevocable, he would not have to remind people to reckon themselves dead to it. Dead men don’t sin at all so you have to understand the limitations of Paul’s analogy. Christ’s sacrifice made it possible for us to be dead to sin if we remain in Christ. Do you accept Jesus’ teaching about the vine? If we choose to separate ourselves from him, we die to him and lose our source of eternal life with him. He is no longer our master and we become alive to sin and it becomes our master. God never strips us of our free will. Adam was more pure than we could ever be as Christians and yet he exercised his free will to disobey and turn away from God.
If someone put a million dollars into my account, it would do me no good unless I did the necessary work to get it into my pocket. I can reckon myself a millionaire all I want but it wont make a whit of difference for me unless I take steps to get the money out of the account. Reckoning that I would like to live like a millionaire would likely get me off my butt and into the bank. That’s what reckoning is for – to encourage us and spur us into action. That’s what Paul is saying. Reckon yourselves dead to sin and act like it by not sinning,; by not letting sin reign in your mortal bodies and not using your bodies as instruments for unrighteousness. Jesus taught personal responsibility. So did Paul and so do I.
Craig, when you let down your guard and start to embrace the truth, you will begin to rightly interpret the whole Word of God, which you admitted at the top is all inspired by him. You can’t “in other words” explain away scripture. You have completely twisted the obvious meaning of Romans 2:6-7. Paul is comparing the patient doers of good works with the self-serving who refuse to obey. The former receive eternal life and the latter, God’s wrath. You use the same type of specious reasoning for Heb 6. Why not simply believe what it says? Jesus can’t be crucified again so you’d better take your salvation very seriously and not give it up.
Again, I am not advocating living under the law as a means of salvation, which is what Paul was addressing in Galatians. We are justified by faith. God does expect us to do our part toward our sanctification. Jesus taught that and so did Paul. I hope you do too.
I’m surprised you brought up Jude because he gives clear examples of those who were saved and then lost their salvation. The Israelites (a type for Christians) were saved out of Egypt (the world) and lost their salvation (eternal life) in the desert because they stopped believing. Who could be more saved than angels in heaven, yet some defied God and now await a fearful judgment. Of course Christ is ABLE to keep us from falling if our desire is not to fall and we maintain our faith in him. Gal 6:8 is about the possibility of losing salvation because the passage is clearly addressed to the brothers. Brothers who sow to the flesh will reap death and brothers who sow to the spirit will reap eternal life.
In summary, God will never force us to be saved against our will. All the verses you quote magnify what God does for us which is fine, but they don’t imply that we don’t have to do our part. God does his part and seals us unto the day of redemption unless we want to break the seal and escape. The Spirit in us is a sign of salvation but he will not be an uninvited guest and force himself on unrepentant sinners. No one can take us out of Jesus’ hand, except ourselves. Please don’t teach anyone that they can’t lose their salvation no matter what they do. I hope at the very least I have caused you to at least consider the possibility that such a doctrine is highly risky. Teach people to cherish their salvation, preserve it, and take it very seriously.
Even if you can’t see it as clearly in scripture as I do, I hope you can at least be open to the possibility that people who thought they were saved, may find out on that day that they really weren’t because they didn’t listen to Jesus’ and Paul’s warnings.
Jesus told His disciples He was going to Jerusalem, be killed and He would rise again, but his disciples did not understand Him. (Matthew 16:21-22, Mark 9:9-10, Luke 18:31-34). Other than that there was no public proclamation of what Jesus would do on the cross until the book of Acts. Before the cross the message the disciples was taking to Israel was the gospel of the kingdom that had been promised to them. It wasn’t until after the cross that the disciples started proclaiming the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, but even then they weren’t sure how the Gentiles fit in. It wasn’t until Acts 10 that it was revealed to Peter that the Gentiles would be equal to the Jews in partaking of the gospel. There are verses in the OT that predicted Jesus’ birth and death, but the nation of Israel did not understand this. Their main focus was on the kingdom that was promised to them.
I enjoy studying types in the Bible, but typology should always be in accordance with sound Bible doctrine. The exodus is a picture of salvation with the Jews (type of believer) being delivered from Egypt (type of world) and Pharoah (type of Satan), but the wilderness is not a picture of one losing their salvation, but of not entering into the Spirit filled walk in which the promised land is a type of. It’s a good study, but it is a type.
What is absent from all of your posts is a clear passage that speaks of one losing their salvation. Don’t you think a person losing their salvation is a pretty important topic, yet it is never mentioned. The Bible is very specific about how and when a person is saved (i.e. John 3:16, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 2:8-9). It is very specific about what happens to person when they get saved, but it never specifically mentions or warns about one losing their salvation.
Lets’ see what the Bible says about a person who believes the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
We are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1: 3)
Some of these blessing include:
Our sins are forgiven – Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14 and 2:13, Galatians 1:4
We have peace with God – Romans 5:1
We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us – 2 Corinthians 5:21
We are a new creature in Christ – 2 Corinthians 5:17
We are baptized into the body of Christ – 1 Corinthians 12:13
We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit – 1 Corinthians 6:19
We are sealed with the Spirit – Ephesians 1:13
We are sealed with the Spirit unto the day of redemption – Ephesians 4:30
We are preserved in Christ – Jude 1
We will be confirmed to the end by Christ – 1 Corinthians 1:8
We are citizens of the household of God – Ephesians 2:19
We are in the kingdom of God’s Son – Colossians 1:13
We are complete in Christ – Colossians 2:9-10
You would think the Bible would mention something about a person losing the new birth, the Holy Spirit leaving someone, or someone leaving or being removed from the body of Christ or the kingdom of God’s Son, but it doesn’t.
“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” (Romans 5:9-10)
Just because someone didn’t understand the message doesn’t mean it wasn’t preached. I’m glad you enjoy typology. Just make sure you draw the correct biblical conclusions. No passage could be clear enough for you about loss of salvation because you don’t want to see it. Heb. 6 couldn’t make it any clearer.
Oh no! Not the shotgun list of Bible verses again! David begged God not to take his Holy Spirit from him after his terrible sin. He didn’t want to experience the separation from God that Saul had.
Craig you are repeating arguments that have been refuted and it feels like you are afraid to think too deeply about these things. Maybe you have some deep seated fear about losing your salvation. Stay close to Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith, resist the devil, turn away from evil, do the good that Jesus and Paul encouraged believers to do, maintain your faith in God, who justifies you and you should be fine. Salvation is by faith with obedience, not security.
A good example of being saved by Gods grace is Moses he sinned by striking the rock and the consequence was that God did not permit him entry into the promised land but that had no bearing on being saved by faith.When he died he went to be with the Lord.As we know that he was with Jesus at the mount of transfigurationSo sin does not stop us from eternal life but it certainly impacts what happens to us in this life.If we allow sin we come under bondage to satan who uses the law to make us suffer condemnation and guilt until we repent and turn back to the Lord.God will discipline his children as he loves us and his desire is that none of his children perish.
You’re missing something there, Brent. Beware of the limitations of analogies. The promised land is a type for eternal life, not an equivalent. You wouldn’t say that Joshua and Caleb never sinned or displeased God so they got to go to heaven. Moses committed a particularly public sin (not unbelief) which caused him to lose that physical reward of crossing into Canaan, but not his eternal one. I’m sure many Israelites who died in the desert, repented and maintained their faith in God and will receive eternal life. Read my responses to Craig above and I hope you will at least caution yourself and others to not place blind faith in the doctrine of eternal security. Just because God doesn’t want us to perish doesn’t mean that he will force us to be saved against our will. Since you gave an OT example, think of Noah’s ark. Anybody who walked into that ark was saved. But if they walked out before God shut the door, they lost their salvation.
Great conversation Martin, Craig, etc… I’ve struggled with this topic and I am sure those who have really thought it through will do so as well.
What I always like to ask someone who believes you can lose your salvation is, “Where is the line of sin that determines you are lost?”
If there is such a line, then wouldn’t salvation be by works? If one can actually sin to the point you are lost, then by logic there must be “such a point”. If there is such, then by logic, one either does enough works and sins less than this line, or one doesn’t do enough works and sins more than this line.
No amount of twisting, debating, or whatever excuse someone can come up with changes this fact-right? Or what is it, I am missing here?
So what is the answer? I wish I knew perfectly, I can only tell you where the Lord has me on this subject, but its a start.
First and foremost, the doctrine of God disciplining those who are His, is by far one of the most underrated, avoided, missed, and forgotten doctrines, when it should be at the forefront when it comes to Christian living.
If you are saved and you are in sin, God will chastise you back into fellowship or you will be a miserable person, but you won’t be lost and you CANNOT be happy in such sin. Doesn’t work, can’t work. So the happy so-called Christian living in sin with no conviction is NOT saved.
Sin causes death. It destroys, it can only seemingly satisfy for a time, but never completely. The lost person may seem satisfied in their sin, but the Christian cannot be satisfied, as their knowledge of sin, what they should be doing, and fear of God will not let them. Add into this, the chastisement of the Lord and you either get repentance or misery, but never loss of salvation.
I can think of no other way it can be, unless like I stated before, there is some “line” we can cross, which to me would nullify salvation by grace and make it by works.
For the record, I am just an average Joe Christian and don’t want to influence anyone in the wrong direction. So please, anyone reading this or Martin and Craig’s debate, if you are unsure where you stand, pray about it, study it, and cry out to God for guidance.
Darin, I appreciate your approach to this debate. You have an open mind and a reverent respect God’s discipline and for the possibility that God remains in control of who is saved and who is not. I can only hope that all who hold your view adopt that attitude. What you are missing is that you beg the question. You assume that the existence of a line would obviate the need for grace and thus satisfy yourself that such a line could not exist. What I am saying is that the Bible teaches us that such a line does indeed exist and the wise will fear God and respect it. The line for the people of Noah’s generation became evident at about the time the first raindrops began to fall from the sky. The line for Saul came after the battle with the Amalekites. For Ananias and Sapphira it came when they lied to the Holy Spirit . For most people the line appears at the time of their death for it is appointed for everyone once to die and after that the judgment. It is not always obvious where the line is because God is in control of it and only he knows the heart. I don’t like to dwell too much on where the line is because people tend to obsess about it. The prudent thing to do is to live far enough away from any potential line so as not to have to worry about it.
The purpose of discipline is to keep us away from the line and from crossing it. I’m sorry if this disturbs some Christians but it takes work to stay far away from the line. The presence of a line in no way nullifies grace. It is grace through faith that got us over the line in the first place and it is grace through faith that keeps us on the right side of it. If we renounce our faith or make no effort to maintain it we have no basis for justification. Our acceptance of the conditions of salvation did not render God powerless with no more say in the matter. That’s a very anthropocentric illusion. We must never presume upon the grace of God no matter how safe we consider ourselves to be. Paul understood that very clearly and always maintained a humble attitude about his prospects for salvation. If we are wise, we will do the same – trust God with childlike faith for our salvation but also be careful to respond with the obedience he requires.
God bless you, Darin, and may he continue giving you guidance on this all-important doctrine.
Many believe Ananias and Sapphira were saved. Saul is debatable-what about Esau? Do we really know? There’s probably more about Esau and how God felt about him than any of the aforementioned and it doesn’t look good, but when we read about Esau’s later years, he appeared to be repentant and loving toward Jacob, but perhaps not with the Lord…
Anyway, with that being said, I appreciate the kind comments and friendly debate, but simply do not see it the way you do. God can chastise and punish sin in believers and I think that could very well be the case in some or all of those listed above. Paul told the Corinthian believers that many were sick or asleep (dead) because of their abuse in the Lord’s supper (at the agape feast). No indication these individuals were lost, they were simply disobedient and suffered loss, but not total loss.
But like you said, I hope God will guide me and all of us who are studying this out. Everyone in this conversation, including you, should always strive to seek for the truth and be willing to change their mind. I know I have changed my mind a few times throughout the years and fully assume that even now I could be wrong on some issues-that is why grace is so merciful, because Christ paid for our ignorance as well. It probably will be a shock to many when the Lord reveals just how much we didn’t understand, but that the main thing we need to know, is that Christ is our “all in all”, and that faith in His work and nothing of ourselves is our salvation. Even that according to Eph. 2:8-10 is not of ourselves. So grace is technically all a work of God.
In the end, that is my hope. That if I am wrong, I go boldly to God for mercy because of Christ. That I do know, even if I am wrong on other issues.
I would see no reason not to believe Ananias and Sapphira were saved. In 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 you see an example of one being delivered to Satan “for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”. It’s possible God may use death to chasten a believer, but they are still saved.
As far as Saul and Esau, no one before the cross experienced salvation like we do. They weren’t born again, baptized into the body of Christ and indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit. You can’t equally compare their experience with we in the church age.
Ephesians 1:13 teaches we are saved by believing the truth and after we believe we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 4:3o teaches the sealing of the holy Spirit is unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches salvation is by faith apart from works.
Jesus told Nicodemas that he had to be born again of the spirit. That was ” before the cross”
The writer to the Hebrews in the NT , makes it clear that God contracted an unchanging purpose with Abraham and that this is “an anchor for the soul, firm and secure…”
This makes it clear that God’s purpose was always the same, to redeem creation, establish the Kingdom of God in God’s presence on the new heaven and new earth and bring the exiles back to the garden.
The very stated purpose of this blog of Jeremy Myers is to present the redemption of God as the divine plan.
The mediaeval interpretive assumption that God’s purpose is to save people out of the world so they escape and “go to heaven ” is unbiblical and confuses the biblical message at every level.
Sorry if my passing thoughts are somewhat ad hoc. Nevertheless, I put my faith in Jesus and He prayed to the Father ” Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven”
Craig, we have discussed this before and on related threads, and it appears you hang your argument mostly on Eph. 2:8-9 and a few verses mentioning the sealing of the Holy Spirit. I have addressed the Ephesians quote before, most recently in a response to Darin above. The weakness of the seal argument is that there is no biblical evidence that it can’t be broken if someone wants to be free of it.
The logical extension of eternal security is that people who give themselves over to evil must be accepted into heaven. Your doctrine gives more control to man over salvation than God. You are saying that God must accept anyone from the point they place their faith in Christ even if they later renounce it. If our faith in God saves us, it stands to reason that losing our faith leads to loss of salvation. 1 Cor 6:9 clearly states that evildoers will not inherit the kingdom of God. If you are a Christian who dies in unrepentant evil without faith in God, biblically speaking, I can’t offer any hope for your salvation.
You shouldn’t have to worry about this for yourself, right Craig? Maintain your faith in Jesus, do what God asks you to do, and do not quench the Holy Spirit. You will then remain sealed until the day of redemption.
God is the one who will make the decision for each of us. We study the Bible to get an understanding of what it will take for us to be saved eternally. It is of utmost importance that we get it right. Paul informed us in First Corinthians that what happened to the Israelites was an example to us so that we can avoid sin and its devastating consequences. Jesus taught us that people who think they are saved really won’t be. You mentioned the shock of learning what we didn’t understand. Can you imagine the shock of realizing you got this wrong and gave people the false impression that they could resist the Holy Spirit, live in disobedience, and still be saved? That is a very good reason for trying to stay far from the line. Ananias had no time to repent of his sin. I would not want to go into eternity with my last words being a lie against the Holy Spirit. His heart obviously was not right with God and I would like everyone to understand that that is a dangerous way to live. No one should gamble with their salvation by flirting with sin.
James refers to people whose religion is worthless and calls them twice uprooted. Sounds like a reference to one saved twice lost.
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death….Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. James 1:14-15, 21-22 NASB
There are a lot of bad descriptions for people who do not heed the warnings and do not seem to take the gift of salvation seriously. Jesus says that every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire.
You are right that grace is all a work of God and the “not of ourselves” refers to that. The works are essential, though, and God has work for us as Paul points out in v. 10 of the passage you cited.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. James questions whether someone who is not doing works can be saved.
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
James 2:14 NASB
Yes God is gracious and full of mercy but the Bible clearly teaches us that he expects an obedient response from us. Believing in itself is an obedient first response. Paul mentions the obedience of faith in Rom. 1:5. You are absolutely right, Darin, we will never understand it all, but we must be very careful to respond in obedience to what has been made clear.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view…; Galatians 5:6-10
Darin, here’s another verse for you to consider. I don’t know if you saw it but my more detailed response is posted below.
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds : to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 2:4-10
There are some issues we can’t afford to be wrong about.
neville briggs says January 18, 2017 at 2:11 am
Jesus told Nicodemas that he had to be born again of the spirit. That was ” before the cross”
Craig Giddens – Yes Jesus did tell Nicodemus he had to be born again. Jesus came and presented Himself to the Jews as their long awaited Messiah, but He also knew they would reject Him. He made a legitimate offer to His own (the Jews), but knowing they would reject Him He is preparing them for what was to come. Was Nicodemus born again? Not before the cross.
John 7
37. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 16
7. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Not all Jews rejected Jesus. At least 12 dedicated themselves to Him and 3000 accepted Him on the Day of Pentecost.
The Gospel is the coming of the Kingdom, and God’s plan to install Messiah as the King was accomplished. That was the plan announced to the shepherds by the herald angel. Surely we cannot think that God’s plan failed.
It just didn’t look like the thing that people wrongly imagined it should be.
They didn’t understand what ” according to scripture ” meant. We know that, because of the story about Jesus on the road to Emmaus.
Today I wonder if people are doing the same thing. Looking for something that isn’t there, not seeing what is there.
The Kingdom has arrived, God’s redeeming work is going ahead. Does this mean the mega church with all its supposed ins and outs. Its imaginary ” going to heaven ” according to the right moral formula.
When I read the scripture I become convinced that the Kingdom is the leaven working its way through the dough, it is the mustard seed quietly growing into a large plant.
Jesus said that He would come like a thief in the night. he cautioned us to be ready and alert for His coming, not dreaming of escaping to an out of body place and not fussing over whether we have ticked all the theological boxes while we sit slumped in the Sunday pew listening to yet another sermon on how to be saved ( when we are already saved ).
The Kingdom is here and the Kingdom is coming. Remember the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews chastised his readers for being immature and not moving on from elementary teaching.
Neville, the kingdom of God has not been generally developing very well on earth since the times of Jesus. Mega churches are only one evidence of that. The ultimate end of the earth is to be destroyed and a new heaven and earth will be formed. The kingdom will be restored when Jesus comes to do that. Whatever kingdom you are waiting for, you will have to be obedient to its Master to enter it. There will only be faithful servants in Jesus’ kingdom. Faithless disobedient Christians go somewhere else.
Can we truly say that the Kingdom of God is not developing very well.
It seems to say that, is to assume that God is incompetent and cannot bring His plans to fruition. Perhaps, like some of Jesus’ first century antagonists, we might think that way, if we don’t know what the Kingdom looks like.
Jesus explained that His Kingdom was; the poor in spirit, the mourners, the meek, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, the merciful, the pure in heart, the peacemakers , the persecuted. How do we know where all that stands, I suspect only God knows and we don’t.
Is it biblical to say that the earth will be destroyed and replaced by a new earth and heaven. Again this might suggest that God is a failure, that His original creation is no good and has to be redone. But isn’t it the biblical teaching that creation has been redeemed by Jesus death on the cross. God has won, He never fails or loses.
His original construction has not failed and will go ahead as planned. The garden of God was always good, people must be redeemed so they can return from exile to the garden.
Jesus told a parable about people being invited to a great feast and one person was denied entry because he wasn’t wearing the right clothes. In the Book of Revelation we are told that clean garments represent the righteous deeds of the saints. So I guess if we can make that connection, then obedience is important.
Which gets back to the original heading of this blog, which I must admit I find a bit confusing.
Neville, the kingdom is not developing in the way one would expect if the King who is greater than David has come back to establish it. That kingdom will come but it is not here now in that form.
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” John 18:36
Matthew 5 does not describe the kingdom but rather the attitudes and conditions of those who will enter it.
8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
This does not mean in any way that God is incompetent and not bringing his plans to fruition. We are in a clandestine phase of the kingdom characterized by meekness, obedience, and persecution. Sometimes it seems that evil is winning out and even overpowering Christianity as in so many Islamic states where Christians are being wiped out. Paul tells us what the world will look like near the end of this kingdom era.
“But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.”
People will scoff at the prospect of the Kingdom of God coming in power and the earth that was once destroyed with a flood will be destroyed with fire.
3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
I won’t even bother to get into Revelation unless I have to. Jesus himself wondered if he would find faith on earth when he returned (Lk. 18:8).
God is not a failure. His original creation has been contaminated by sin and must be destroyed. It demonstrates the destructive power of man’s disobedience and should help us grasp the danger of disobedience once we are born into the family of God. Yes, we have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus but we have very obviously not returned to an earthly garden. That was not God’s plan for his fallen creation. There is something coming that is much greater than an earthly garden. According to Hebrews, even the patriarchs were expecting it.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God…
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
Neville, you have made an important connection. Obedience has always been important to God from the beginning to now. This is an important reason why I do not encourage anyone to hope that they can persist in living in unrepentant disobedience to God and still expect to be welcomed into his eternal kingdom with open arms. Throughout the Bible, God rewarded those who not only had faith in him but proved it by doing works that pleased him.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
I don’t disagree with what you are saying. All Jews did not reject Him, but the nation as a whole did.
Gospel simply means good news. When Jesus came He and His disciples proclaimed the gospel/good news of the kingdom that had been promised to Israel. After the cross they proclaimed the gospel/good news of His death, burial, and resurrection for salvation
Except for John the Baptist’s reference to Jesus as being the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world Jesus and His disciples didn’t publicly preach His coming death, burial, and resurrection. Even Jesus’ disciples, His closest followers, didn’t understand what Jesus was talking about when he told them about coming death.
“From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.” Matthew 16:21-22
“Let these sayings sink down into your ears; for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not; and they feared to ask him of that saying. “ Luke 9:44-45
“Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. and they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.” Luke 18:31-34
“And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” Luke 24:13-27
“Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.” John 20:8-9
God’s plan to install Messiah as the King is postponed until Jesus’ second coming because Israel rejected Him and He is not yet sitting on a throne on earth reigning.
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Acts 2:36
Acts 3
13. The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15. And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Acts 4
8. Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9. If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10. Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Acts 5
29. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 7
51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
We which are saved are part of the kingdom of God as He reigns in our hearts, but the Davidic kingdom is still yet to come.
Isaiah 9
6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Martin says on January 18, 2017 at 10:00 pm
Craig, we have discussed this before and on related threads, and it appears you hang your argument mostly on Eph. 2:8-9 and a few verses mentioning the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
Craig says
Ephesians 2:8-9 is a pretty solid place to hang an argument. It’s tells us salvation is a gift and we receive it by faith. Ephesians 1:13 tells us our salvation is a result of our belief in the gospel. After we believe we receive the Holy Spirit with one of His ministries being to seal us. This sealing is a guarantee of our salvation. Ephesians 4:30 says this sealing is unto the day of redemption. This is the Biblical evidence that the seal can’t be broken. If the seal could be broken and the Holy Spirit removed the Bible would say so … but it doesn’t.
1 Corinthians 6:9 does say ” the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God”, but then in verse 11 Paul says ” And such WERE some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God”.
We are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1: 3)
Some of these blessing include:
Our sins are forgiven – Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14 and 2:13, Galatians 1:4
We have peace with God – Romans 5:1
We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us – 2 Corinthians 5:21
We are a new creature in Christ – 2 Corinthians 5:17
We are baptized into the body of Christ – 1 Corinthians 12:13
We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit – 1 Corinthians 6:19
We are sealed with the Spirit – Ephesians 1:13
We are sealed with the Spirit unto the day of redemption – Ephesians 4:30
We are a child of God – Galatians 3:28
We are preserved in Christ – Jude 1
We are citizens of the household of God – Ephesians 2:19
We are in the kingdom of God’s Son – Colossians 1:13
We will be confirmed to the end by Christ – 1 Corinthians 1:8
We are complete in Christ – Colossians 2:9-10
Romans 5
9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Craig, the exact argument you use can just as easily be used against you. You say that the Bible doesn’t specifically say the seal can be broken but it also doesn’t specifically say it can’t be broken either.
Likewise, in 1 Cor 6, Paul was addressing Christians who had been washed. He does not say that it would be impossible to return to unrighteousness. Peter, in fact, teaches clearly that it is possible to know the Lord and then return to unrighteousness and that person is worse off than if they had never become a Christian. In other words, they are LOST! More lost than before they were saved.
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit ,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 2:20-22 NASB
Craig, this is devastating evidence against your view. If you want to have a serious debate, you’ll have to start engaging with the facts and arguments that have been presented rather than merely ignoring them and restating the same old arguments that you seem so desperate to believe. Why are you so obstinate about defending the Christian “right” to live in unrighteousness? That is not the message of the Bible which you should be able to see if you read beyond a few favorite proof-texts. As I’ve said before, if you follow what Jesus and Paul taught and don’t live near “the line” and are obedient in working out your salvation with fear and trembling, you shouldn’t have to worry. But even if for no other reason than out of deference to weaker brothers and sisters who need to be encouraged to resist sin and persevere in their faith to the end, it may behoove you to at least admit that the Bible could be teaching that people need to resist sin at all costs and pursue a close relationship with God in obedience and holiness. No one sees the Lord without holiness.
If we call ourselves Christians, but have become so enmeshed in sin again so that we no longer hear or care about the Holy Spirit’s conviction, then there is a strong possibility that we have offended him to the point that he abandons us to our folly and we are no longer sealed unto salvation by his presence. That is why I preach that people need to obey the Word of God and not do anything to jeopardize their salvation. I would just urge you to not promote so adamantly a doctrine that is not nearly as strongly supported in scripture even if it seems so to you in your strong desire to believe it. I would like to see you at least admit the possibility that people take seriously the importance of working out their salvation and not merely assume that nothing more is absolutely required of them after they express faith in Jesus.
I see it slightly differently. I see sin as transgression of law. When the Spirit has used the law as it is intended, to reveal unrighteousness, and a person gives up trying to be good and accepts the gift of grace, what can the law now. do? What laws can we transgress when we realize it is all one law that we transgress at all times?
I believe the law is not for those under grace. So can we sin (break the law)? Sure. But trying to keep the law is as pointless as it was before I knew I was unrighteous. Ineffective and cumbersome, shackling with shame and paralyzing with fear.
Instead of trying to follow laws (sin or not sin)… Instead of trying to make the New Testament into a new set of laws to follow or not, I take it that they point to Jesus and what His work looks like in my life. So just as I realized it is not in my power to save my eternal life from transgression of law and therefore by faith trusted Christ to do that, I likewise admit I cannot save my day today from sin and just trust Christ to do it.
I live by faith, not works. And I am crazy enough to believe He can, wants to, and will change me as He desires when He desires. This doesn’t free me TO sin, but is the only effective way to free me FROM sin.
May He protect me and change me as He will.
Yes, life in Jesus is not about following the law in the first place. You make a good clarification.
James, I happened to return to this post after a few months through a search for something else and I see the discussion continues. Maybe you see this slightly differently from how Jeremy sees it but you certainly see it quite differently from how I do and you offer no scriptural evidence to defend your view. It’s not that important how we happen to see anything, to speak frankly. Not sure how you can think it’s biblical to give up trying to do good.
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Gal. 6:9
Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. God still expects us to abide by the universal moral code expressed in his law. If we are transgressing his law at all times by for example, murdering, committing adultery, stealing, lying, etc., we are not of God. Giving up on doing such things because it is deemed to be too difficult, ineffective, cumbersome, shaming, paralyzing, pointless, or whatever could be better interpreted as a loss of faith in the Savior Jesus Christ and his power to change us, and an absence of the Holy Spirit which seals us unto holiness and eternal salvation. I have provided many references above proving that people can lose the salvation they had or maybe thought they had.
Call them laws or commandments, but as followers of Jesus we must do what he asks us to do. If we do not listen or pay attention to the words of Jesus, we don’t belong to him and he doesn’t know us. I can prove your interpretation to be erroneous by referring to the words of Jesus in just one Gospel, let alone the rest of the NT. Since you are trusting Christ to do everything for you, I assume you are willing believe what he said when he was on earth.
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” Jn 8:47
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. Jn 14:15
There is a sense in which the New Testament IS a new set of laws as well as a new understanding of the law. Jesus said,
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
Jn 13:34
At least you get the second half of your sentence right when you say “I take it that they point to Jesus and what His work looks like in my life.” Following his commandments is what his work looks like in your life. Otherwise you are of your father the devil as Jesus says quite bluntly.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Jn 8:44
What a cop out to expect Christ to do something you should be doing for yourself. Of course it is not in your power to save yourself no matter how many good works you do. But how does that even begin to excuse you from doing what God expects you to do as his servant? He is very interested in the fruit you bear.
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. John 15:2
Sure, Christ has the greatest part to play in your salvation, but you’d better play your part. There is a lot you can do to save your day from sin. Living by faith does not absolve you of your responsibility to be a faithful servant and work hard. Jesus worked hard on earth doing his father’s will. So should we.
But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.” John 5:17.
Truly, truly, I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. Jn 13:16, 17
You say you are crazy enough to believe that Jesus will do everything for you when he is ready and I suppose that sounds super spiritual to you, but being crazy is not a very reliable way to get far in the kingdom of God or free from sin. I hope most people are sane and discerning enough to not follow your fanciful but dangerous thinking. I pray also that he protect you from this non-biblical error. Rest assured that it is his will for you to change your thinking on this and come to the light.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
If you do not intuit that it can be abused you do not understand Grace. Of course the great lie is that sin leads to life not death
Absolutely. I love your last line there. That is the great lie of sin.
Yes you can. But if you see the grace of God, the depth of His live and desire to redeem all, if you understand the damage sin does to us and our inability to readily accept His forgiveness then why would you go on ahead sinning.
Correct!!!!!
I wonder if Christ still feels the pain when we sin. As it is, those who say they know Christ but do not do what he commands are liars and the truth is not in them. So I would suspect anyone who feels free to sin all they want (and I confess I do not know a practicing Christian who does) doesn’t truly have a relationship with Christ.
Josh we all sin. Saved and not. I believe Christ feels the impact to our choices. However does that mean once saved God’s grace is no longer enough for any of my a sins? No it’s bigger than I can fathom.
It means just what I said. Those who are saved do not want to sin continuously. There is a requirement that a lot of people don’t talk about that comes after forgiveness: don’t do it again, or at least try not to. The woman caught in adultery. Jesus didn’t say, “go and find another man besides your husband to sleep with”. He said, “go and sin no more”. Romans 12:2 “do not be conformed to the pattern of this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you can test what is God’s will, his perfect and pleasing will”. Once again we see the idea that we should not sin all we want (like the world) but should, by the renewing of our minds by the holy spirit, be transformed. And, as I said earlier, I think it’s in one of John’s letters, is that those who say they know Christ but do not do what he says are liars and the truth is not in them.
What do I mean by all that? Does grace cover all sin? Oh yes. Except what Jesus called blasphemy against the holy spirit. But what I said was that those who choose to sin again and again without thought of the consequences (again I don’t know a practicing Christian who does, but I think most self identified Christians fall under that category) give me reason to question their salvation. I don’t think simply saying a prayer and going about your life the way you used to does it, and it’s because of the scriptures I listed above. Grace covers everything you’ve done or could do. But the point is, after grace, to turn from your ways and attempt to live like Jesus. That doesn’t include sinning all you want.
Or galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life that I now live in the flesh, I live through faith in the son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”
Somehow I don’t think being crucified with Christ looks like sinning all I want.
Josh. There is no point after grace. Gods grace knows no bounds and limits. All christians knowingly sin and do so continually. Do not be deceived by this. Sin is sin, and is intentional. The impact of sin in our walk with Christ is not felt by Christ. It is felt by the walker. Why? Because they have self knowledge and know their sinful desire. Therefore they don’t accept what has already been redeemed, and paid. So they then try to do better and be better. To no avail. It discounts Gods work. It is only by God and thru His grace that we can we found with worth. There is no limit to Gods grace!
So you hit your head and cuss. Accidental. And sinful. You “come to Jesus” and continue to beat your wife, get belligerently drunk, etc. Purposeful. Sinful. While I wouldn’t question the salvation of the first example, I might question the salvation of the second guy. And not because of a failure of grace. Because of a failure of faith. Real faith in Christ makes a person want to be more like him. Otherwise, we could disregard all his teachings, his life, and all the new testament teachings on how to strive to be like him.
Josh, I hear you and have been there. But that is not what I believe. Two things that have been proved out to me. Salvation. Secured once you believe. Cannot be taken back. Why? Because Christ said so. Two, Gods grace knows no limits and bounds. And you can add a third, God is not vengeful, angry, mean, or any of the other negative terms that I have heard for 50+ years. He is love and redemption. I question no ones faith. To do so would be to judge. I do not need to judge. I am not the judge. This is reserved for God alone.
Wow, Kevin. Dynamic, assuring words.
You are wrong about the first 3 things and mostly right about the rest. Christ never said our salvation cannot be lost. Several parables teach otherwise. People who receive the Word with gladness, would be saved, correct? Yet Jesus says in Lk 8 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.” Some believe and the seed sprouts (saved)but in time of testing, they fall way (unsaved).
He places conditions on the maintenance of our salvation.
Mt. 10 22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Jn 15 5 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned
God’s grace does have a limit and that is proven throughout the Bible. His Spirit will not always strive with men. He give grace to the humble, but is opposed to the proud. His grace did not cover Ananias and Sapphira after they lied to the Holy Spirit. He could have given them a second chance but he didn’t. That’s another reason why we never want to presume upon the grace of God.
God is angry and vengeful and some would even call some of the things recorded in the Bible as mean such as when God ordered the man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath to be stoned. He says that vengeance is his to mete out and he is known for taking vengeance on his enemies. His anger was often kindled in the OT and the NT talks a lot about his wrath. His wrath is revealed against all ungodliness of men. God, of course, has many “positive” attributes but to focus only on them yields an incomplete and unreliable picture of who God really is.
You are right, you are not the judge of others, but you will be held accountable for how well you judged the truth.
Zech. 8 16 ‘These are the things which you should do: speak the truth to one another; judge with truth and judgment for peace in your gates.
Larry Harris This is what I was tell you and it parallels with the scriptures I sent. But, there are consiquences for sin and why would anyone knowingly sin?
I always think of the saying ‘Love God and do what you want’. The more we love God, doing what we want will be in line with his character,
Wow. This is a good one. One of your best.
And once you realize what you can do and still be loved you don’t want to do it anymore. It’s mind blowing. So simple yet amazingly profound. Radical!
Yes, God’s love and grace truly frees us from the addictive and destructive power of sin in our lives.
?
D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones (1899-1981) [in an excerpt from Romans: The New Man, An Exposition of Chapter 6, Banner of Truth, 1972] said: There is no better test as to whether a man is really preaching the New Testament gospel of salvation than this, that some people might misunderstand it and misinterpret it to mean that it really amounts to this, that because you are saved by grace alone it does not matter at all what you do; you can go on sinning as much as you like because it will redound all the more to the glory of grace. That is a very good test of gospel preaching. If my preaching and presentation of the gospel of salvation does not expose it to that misunderstanding, then it is not the gospel.
I would say to all preachers: If your preaching of salvation has not been misunderstood in that way, then you had better examine your sermons again, and you had better make sure that you really are preaching the salvation that is offered in the New Testament to the ungodly, to the sinner, to those who are dead in trespasses and sins, and to those who are enemies of God. There is this kind of dangerous element about the true presentation of the gospel.
Jones got it wrong and so have you. Read the first words of chapter 6 and understand the plain meaning. What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? By no means!
I would say to all preachers: If your preaching of salvation has been understood in that way, then you had better examine your sermons again, and you had better make sure that you really are preaching the salvation that is offered in the New Testament to the ungodly, to the sinner, to those who are alive in trespasses and sins, and to those who are enemies of God. There is a very dangerous element about the false presentation of the gospel.
Martin, you overlooked what Jeremy wrote:
This is what Paul means in Romans 6 when he responds with “God Forbid!” He is not saying, “No, you cannot!” but rather, “Why would you want to?”
Here is a nice story about GRACE I would like to repeat:
A man dies and goes to heaven. Of course, St. Peter meets him at the pearly gates. St. Peter says, “Here’s how it works. You need 100 points to make it into heaven. You tell me all the good things you’ve done, and I give you a certain number of points for each item, depending on how good it was. When you reach 100 points, you get in.”
“I taught Sunday School for 10 years!” boasted the newcomer to heaven. “Terrific!” says St. Peter, “that’s certainly worth a point.”
“One point? Golly. How about this: I started a soup kitchen in my city and worked in a shelter for homeless veterans.” “Fantastic, that’s good for two more points,” he says.
Okay,” the man says, “I was married to the same woman for 50 years and never cheated on her, even in my heart.” “That’s wonderful,” says St. Peter, “that’s worth three points!”
“Only three points?” he says. “Well, I attended church all my life and supported its ministry with my tithe and service.” “There you are, two more points.” exclaims St. Peter.
“Two measly points!!” the man cries, “At this rate the only way I could ever get into heaven is by the grace of God!”
“That’s it!” yelled St. Peter, “Come on in!”
Cute story, erroneous theology. While it is true, recognizing that the only way you can get into heaven is by God’s grace is not enough to inherit eternal life. Doing good works is not enough either. You left out two of the most essential elements – believing in what Jesus did on the cross for us and following him in obedience to his Word.
I believe in The Grace of God and know that it has covered me whenever I have fallen and sinned as a Christian in word, thought or deed but I also know that when I have sinned and grieved The Holy Spirit within me that feels terrible, negating any pleasure to be experienced in sin! In His light under conviction of His Holy Spirit any excuses or justification of my behaviour that I have thought up to give myself permission disintegrates when I come to see as He sees. I learn what it is to hate my sinful self and repent and receive longed for forgiveness .
We are promised that with temptation God will give us a way out from it, I am learning to trust in that promise more these days as a more mature Christian , and I do try to recognise temptation and stop and seek Him early to ask for the way out, but it was not always so.
God loves us too much too much to give up on us but He will chastise us because He is a good Father! The chastisement of The Lord is definitely not a pleasant experience when it is happening but it is to train us in the way we should go and bring us back on the right path if we have strayed. He is faithful and promised that He will never leave us or forsake us. I can testify that even though I have failed Him many times over the years, He has remained true to His promise and I cry in gratitude to Him. It is because of His unconditional and unfailing love that I now love Him with a heart that was once made of stone . I rejoice and thank God for His Grace that is truly amazing ! I know God is transforming me into the likeness of Jesus and He never sinned. I trust Him and believe His righteousness is accounted to me, therefore, I wear it as my breastplate! I know there is a sin that ends in death… the unforgivable sin but I don’t want to commit it and I trust Him to keep me from it !!!
I do not think anyone truly born of God’s Spirit will be able to wilfully remain in sin and enjoy it …at least not for very long because they will certainly be troubled! I do believe God will not not give up on them though because He is the Good Shepherd and He will seek His lost sheep. I regret my sinful past and if I could have had the knowledge I have now I would have resisted more and lean’t on God for His strength to overcome those temptations! Sin brings pain into the lives of everyone involved in it and Jesus died to set us free so we don’t need to be slaves to our passions.
I am asked this question many times when confronted by Christians the believe they can lose salvation. They may ask a question like “You mean, I can go out and murder somebody and still keep my salvation?” My simple but truthful answer is that now that they are under the will of God, you cannot go out and murder somebody. You can however test God’s patience with your underestimation of his love and this is not a good thing to do in your walk with Christ.
Do you mean they are not able to? That God will stop them?
Hi Jeremy, don’t you think lots of well-meaning people are confusing charizomai and aphesis?
Yes! Absolutely. Most people don’t know there are two Greek words for forgiveness, which mean vastly different things.
Hi Jeremy,
That’s exactly the right response. It is not God’s responsibility to stop even Christians from committing evil acts though he does at times intervene. I would go further and say that to dismiss sin as something that tests “God’s patience with your underestimation of his love and this is not a good thing to do in your walk with Christ” demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of who God is and what he expects of his children.
I’m sure you’ve read my earlier comments in debates with those of a “hyper-grace” orientation or whatever people choose to call it, and from your post you likely disagree with me. But I do want to commend you for at least allowing opposing viewpoints to be posted on your site. I have left remarks on other sites that get deleted because they challenge the author’s opinion. I do not return to those sites because that type of censorship indicates more interest in propaganda than truth. So even though we probably disagree on many theological issues, including this one which I feel is of utmost importance, I do respect you for allowing a conflicting perspective to be presented on your site.
Exactly. Since the first part cannot happen, the second part is irrelevant. John 10:28-29 says that Jesus will never never let someone be plucked out of his hand. Some may answer that only means someone else can’t pluck me from his hand. I ask “Did someone else’s faith put you in his hand in the first place?” Of course the answer is no. So Jesus is not referring to someone else but referring to the believer himself. Praise God JD.
Of course it is possible for Christians to sin and even commit serious ones. Your argument is non-sequiter. Your faith was required to get you into God’s hand and is necessary for keeping you there. Jesus is referring to someone else trying to pluck you out of his hand when you want to stay there. You don’t snatch yourself out of someone’s hand. You may however, choose to remove yourself from God’s hand by abandoning your faith or denying God. God does not strip you of your free will to choose eternal salvation or not when you become a Christian.
Then if that is the case, Martin, that you could make the decision to ‘remove yourself’ from god’s hand, then you have no right to rejoice in your salvation. You are not ‘saved’, in its strictest sense, because you are not ‘safe’. You simply don’t know what will happen to you between now and the moment you die.
I hope this isn’t the case, of course, but you might even ‘curse god’ on your deathbed as you die in agony. Your last breath may be used to form the words ‘f*** me that hurts!’ and then you’re stuffed good and proper. Your last conscious thought might be ‘You murdering b******!’ as you see the gunman pull the trigger. Stuffed again. Your last week of pain may be so bad that you decide that there isn’t a god after all, there never was, and you deny him/her/it, and once again, you’re stuffed. I am sorry that this is graphic, but you simply do not know what circumstances might happen between now and your final breath. You really don’t. I have heard the purest christians curse out loud because of the pain they are in. You might see a loved one die horrifically. Something might happen to you that pushes you over the edge emotionally, spiritually, or otherwise, that causes you to lose sight of your faith for whatever reason. Sure, you might say now, ‘Oh I will have to trust god to carry me through’ but then that’s what everyone else says. I really don’t get how you people can say you’re so sure that you’re ‘saved’ when you actually believe that there is a possibility that you can lose your ‘salvation’. It’s simply a contradiction. For you, it simply must be that you are either ‘saved’, and yet still not totally sure, or you’re not ‘saved’. What sort of life is that? Surely if that’s what you really believe, you should live in constant terror of the unknown state of your future, because *you simply do not know what will happen or how you will change* between now and your death. You might even become suicidally depressed and top yourself! You just don’t know!
Your gospel, if it contains uncertainty like this, is no good news at all, because it provides no assurance. You might think ‘Oh, I will never deny my faith’. But you don’t know. Do you know the future? No. Therefore you cannot say with absoute certainty that you will not lose your faith. You should really therefore be living in fear *all the time* because you are undoubtedly breaking many of your god’s rules much of the time, for who of us can keep all the hundreds of rules in the bible? You are probably getting angry reading this. Good job, then, that you have at least some time to ask for forgiveness for that one, isn’t it? What if my words make you so angry you have a stroke right now, and you die mad at me? Sin. Judgement. Hell. Period. You might say, ‘Oh, Christ is my righteousness’, but what if, all of a sudden, you decide that you don’t believe that any more? This could still happen. People ‘back-slide’ all the time, and next time it could be YOU. No-one is immune from it. Not even you. In fact, the more cast-iron you are with what you believe, as you seem to be by all the dogmatic statements you have made, the easier it is for something to tip the balance and cause you to remove yourself. You are not safe, according to your own rules, because you can still jump out of his hand. You said it yourself. Think it through – if your ‘salvation’ is not assured, then you have no right to act as if it is. Not even you, with all your doctrines set out like ducks in a row.
As Jeremy has said before, “salvation” means different things. God is constantly saving me from things, so I rejoice in that. I also rejoice in the fact that he has offered me eternal salvation and I am working that out with fear and trembling but also with joy. I won’t be able to fully rejoice in that until I hear his words, “Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your master.”
Either you are not hearing what I am saying or you are not understanding it. I am certainly not getting angry at anything you are saying. If anything, I feel compassion for you in your confusion. You said in your own words, “People ‘back-slide all the time… No one is immune from it… You are not safe, according to your own rules, because you can still jump out of his hand.” What are you disagreeing with? You seem to worry that I am acting as if my salvation is assured. I’m not sure what gave you that impression. Maybe you are perceiving my great faith in God and his Word, and that he who began a good work in me will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. All I can say is that I am trying to do my part as faithfully as I can and I am counting on him to do what he has promised. What alternative do I have?
“Of course it is possible for Christians to sin and even commit serious ones” What about your scripture that says ‘whoever is born of god does not continue to sin’? Surely, according to that, you should stop sinning?
Here is a better translation that can help you understand the intent of the Greek. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 1 Jn. 3:9 ESV
If we are born of God, our nature no longer requires that we be overpowered by sin. So yes, if we are born of God we should resist sin and not make a habit of living in it. If you are asking if we can be completely free from sin in our mortal bodies, the answer is also found in the same book. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1:8
@Martin Correct, So you just proofed we are secure forever.
I use to always wonder about that. I did not know much about Grace from the B.I.B.L.E , however I use to realize many people commit flagrant sins, they know exactly what there were doing. Id ask God does that mean you still forgive them ? after all they are not ignorant to what they are doing. Soooo….. Yes he will, however if we sin we will feel the negative effects. Great Article.
Awesome blog, Jeremy! I am just beginning to learn what GRACE really is. You do a very good job of explaining it. Once we realize what God’s grace really is, it brings an assurance of salvation.
Thanks, Tony! You are absolutely correct that a proper understanding of grace leads to a proper knowledge of assurance.
True enough that anyone who is saved, is saved by grace, no amount of good works can help you get saved, but the Bible is clear that anyone who practices sin willfully, will not be saved. Do not be deceived, go to Gods word. If you truly study the Bible, it will be plainly evident, this is not true.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]homosexuals, nor [b]sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
I think you might need to reconsider what God’s Word actually says. The verse you quoted does not talk about receiving eternal life, but about inheriting the Kingdom of God, which is not the same thing at all. Do a study on what it means to inherit the kingdom of God, and you will see what Paul is actually teaching.
Eternal life is by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, and no amount of works will help us earn or keep the free gift of eternal life.
Hear hear Jeremy. Well said. Yes absolutely. We can go out there and sin away. Sin mighty I do believe Martin Luther said to his best mate. Go Rob a bank, beat up an old lady, whatever. But with sin is consequence. And all comes into the light of day eventually. But sure. There is maybe many a forgiven sinner kicked up for going astray. Their salvation being still intact. But do we really want to end up in prison, etcetcetc. I think the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom covers this well. Who would be wise and want to go to prison for instance? But it’s a free world. The choice is yours. Be imprisoned with sin if ya want. It, s not what God wants for sure. But then again. St Paul was locked up. Jesus was locked up. And many besides. Sometimes a story must be told. All is not in our hands. But his.
When I have mentioned that Martin Luther said to his best mate to sin mightily. Hopefully people can see the sorta dark humour of Mr Luther. But he was still making a valid point. The saved and born again man will continue on through life sinning. If not then he is a ready perfect. Anybody out there perfect,?? Doubt it folks. To a point a saved, born again man is actually perfect but that’s a whole new concept. The concepts of time and infinity play their respective parts. And why do soooooo many harp on about bloody heaven!!! Oh why oh why! That’s a Disney land version of “The Kingdom”. Thy kingdom come we pray in the Lords prayer. When saved and born again, wake up folks. We are in the kingdom. The kingdom came into reality on the cross 2019 years ago!!! So please, please, please. Lay if that heaven and hell shoite!
I’m afraid Jeremy is again, at least, every time I read him, makes assertions that are obviously contrary to Scripture, for example, when he says, “So yes, in a way, grace is a license to sin,” especially reading Titus 2:11-12.
So, to be clear, that we have free-will, yes, we can choose to sin and sin as much as we want; but relative to grace, no, we cannot sin all we want. As a matter of fact, if we are a Christ-follower, we would want always to obey God rather than sin.
Of course one can sin all they want since we do have free-will, however, that would only demonstrate that the person is not under grace, i.e. that persons who sins at their pleasure are not saved (1 John 3:7-8).
The Bible denies Jeremy’s assertion that, even “in a way” or in any way, grace gives license to sin. Grace leads to holiness; rebellion and apostasy leads to sin and, if persisted in, to God’s judgment under eternal damnation.
Taken me 35 born-again years…. Going from new-born baby Christian in a cacoon of grace, to rebellious teenage Christian slipping little by little, to consequences ridden, broken adult fallen from Grace, to performance-based earn God’s acceptance Christian, to only recently beginning to reconcile grace is God bringing me to Heaven, forever now my father, yet also my father who allows the sting of sin to remain with me while on Earth.
So while my hate of sin has grown, my despair of life in wanting to perfectly please God is a true struggle (I can comprehend but never accomplish in perfection), I have suffered great losses for various reasons, yet I witness to all the boundaries I have crossed… Knowing with certainty God is real, exactly as He claims in the Bible, and has never, ever left me or forsaken me, just as He promised.
The mystery of grace and sin in this life, of coexistence, is so complex, and yet in other ways so simple. God, your eternal Father, cannot deny His children any more than a biological father his children. Yet even our earthly fathers discipline us to try to prevent us harming ourselves.
God’s love for me is perfect, I have crossed that boundary of experience and thus sure acceptance, beyond faith… I know it.
I can say, though He slay me, yet I will trust Him… with conviction… only because of my experiences, which have included sin.
Only God knows every person’s choices, faith, sins, etc., and the sufferings of life are a harsh reality to persevere through… but my witness remains… the World is broken, and we suffer with sinfulness even after salvation… and how I too pray for repair of my life in so many ways…
Yet I would rather suffer the remainder of my life here and go to Heaven… Than be the healthiest, richest, happiest, longest living, most in control person ever on the Earth… and die and go to Hell.
God’s grace, through Jesus, is forever your guarantee He will bring you safely to Himself.
It’s so refreshing. Sounds so new. I’m so blessed. “if that’s what you really want”; I love that part.
I’ve learned this the hard way. Thank you for saying it. It truly is the meaning of grace.
I have hurt myself badly in my disobedience and wrong decisions, choosing sin over obedience and I didn’t suffer for a few weeks or a few days. Rather, I’ve suffered for decades! Still I’ve known that I belong to Him… but it’s been hard and painful. Still, He has never left me but our relationship has not been what it could have been and I’ve had so much of what I thought I wanted over righteousness that it sickens me. Stilling struggle but it’s getting better, nearly 30 years on. Don’t do this to yourself. Truly, obedience is better than sacrifice, in more ways than one.
I believe in unconditional Eternal Security; some here in these comments don’t. Eternal life that can be lost was never eternal to begin with. Here is a classic case where BOTH sides say that they have the CLEAR teaching on their side.
Great explanation Jeremy!
Sir pls how can someone that has already been swallowed up in a beseting sin like sexual immorality(masturbation and pornography) be saved 😭
What I find funny is not your argument (as in one sort of way you are right), but your failure to mention the consequences.
God will NOT stand idly by while you sin yourself into the cesspool. When Jesus talked about casting away an eye or cutting off a hand that causes you to sin, He meant it.
If He has to bring the most serious and painful corrective discipline into your life to break the backbone of your sin addiction, He will. Count on it. Being saved is no guarantee of ease and comfort, in fact, it guarantees the opposite, as John-15-type ‘pruning’ is certain.
Unless you are someone who likes pain, you’d best agree to give up sin. It’s the single biggest problem in the 66 books of the Bible.
The bible speaks of two types of Grace. Saving Grace and Common grace. We deserve neither nor can we earn either. Grace simply means Favor from God that cannot be earned by our own merits.
This topice is very crucial in a day that wrong is consider right, and evil goood. I personally and painful have to express my views on this issue. I mayself made a mocker out of the cross ofChrist, treated as an unawholly thing the blood of the convenent, insulted the Holy Spirt. I had one foot in with Christ and one foot with Satan. I couldn’t serve two master. I always gave in to the temptations of life, folllowing my own sinful desires. My life was a mess, failed marriages (multiple relationships), alcohol, drugs,5 children (3 in heaven and 2 still alive). Struggled with major ANXIETY! I felt like a dead women walking. My life spining out of control and all I could feel is death all around me, my world was siking into darkness. Not even those I knew that were Christians encouraged me to turn from my sins.
I visited a Christitian Pyschologist, who after hearing my life stories, only made excuses for my sins, wanted me commited and put on anti depressants. I cried out to the Lord saying, “Lord I am not crazy I am in sin and I don’t know how to change!” Yet, after all this my life strugless kept me a slave to sin. That was until the bottom fell out and I came faced with my all my deamons. My life was empty filled with deep darkness, and death was all around me.
I cried out to the Lord again in agony, “Lord NOT MY WILL, BUT YOURS BE DONE! Show me how to live this life with you. I have always done whatever I wanted and without ever once thinking about the consequences of SIN! He reached back and said, “Daughter I love you but, you need to be a doer of my word and not just read it. Apply my words to your life. I would hold you with my out streched arm. The Lord took me to scriptures some where hard to swallow, but I seen and felt my Heavenly Father scolding me; as any loving father would do to the child he loves. My life started miraculas changing and never felt this alive in my Spirit, body, and soul.
No one will now ever convinced that I could just live and do as I please!
For when we are tempted don’t say it’s God tempting me. When you are tempted it’s by your own evil desires. Then after the desire is concieved, it gives bith to sin, and sin, when it is fully-grown gives birth to death.
The Lord will perfect me until he calls me home. I have been reborn again, reconciled to God, a new creation in Christ Jesus. At this point in life I wan’t to NOTHING to do with the fruitless deads of darkness. I am a child of God and I am to live as such (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth). For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
I say maranotha Lord come quickly and do away with sin once and for all! Amen!!
Hi Jeremy,
When it comes to topics like this, it can be useful to reference other early Christian writings to see if they can help gain further insight into the Biblical texts. These texts can give valuable insights into how early Christians understood and interpreted the Bible. This, in turn, can help us to have a better understanding of which Biblical interpretations are sound, and which are not. The point here is not whether or not a particular text has been accepted as canon, but rather if the writing can help shed light on how we might best understand the Bible.
One such text of particular pertinence to this topic is the Epistle to Barnabas. It is dated between 85-132 AD. As you undoubtedly know, if it was written close to the first date, that would place it still within the Apostolic era of the church. As such, it is a very early testament to Christian belief, indeed.
Much of the epistle deals with explaining why certain Jewish practices are no longer valid for Christians. For our purposes, however, the text offers surprisingly clear commentary and insight on the notion of grace and whether abusing it endangers our salvation.
Following the Roberts-Donaldson English translation, the text near the end of Chapter 4 reads:
“Let us be spiritually-minded: let us be a perfect temple to God. As much as in us lies, let us meditate upon the fear of God, and let us keep His commandments, that we may rejoice in His ordinances. The Lord will judge the world without respect of persons. Each will receive as he has done: if he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him; if he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called [of God], we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord… Let us beware lest we be found [fulfilling that saying], as it is written, “Many are called, but few are chosen.”
[Text can be found here http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-roberts.html%5D
Notice that Barnabas offers a surprisingly detailed chain of cause and effect. Placed in simplified form, it is:
1) We must fear God, so that we can keep his commands and even rejoice in God’s ordinances.
2) God judges us impartially.
3) If we are wicked, the reward of wickedness is before us.
4) Clarifying what this means, he states Christians should be vigilant, or we might fall asleep in our sins.
5) The consequence of a lack of vigilance over sin is that the wicked prince (I think we know who this refers to) can thrust us away from the kingdom of God/Jesus.
6) Reinforcing this theme, he reminds us that “Many are called, but few are chosen.”
As you can see, this epistle speaks very clearly to the issues we have been talking about. The text, particularly near the end, is pretty unambiguous. Not being watchful about sin means we could lose our place in the kingdom of God. And if we are thrust out by the “wicked prince”, I think it’s pretty clear where we will go.
The only thing to be asked is “Does what is taught in this portion of the text correlate with Biblical teachings?” The answer is clearly “Yes.” Peter warns that in 1 Peter 17 that God judges us impartially. Paul writes something very similar in Galatians 6:7-8: “Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” Similarly, Jesus himself warns about how he will reject those who practice lawlessness, and indicates that therefore, a wise man will hear his commands and do them (Matthew 7: 21-24).
In light of all this, I would ask you to consider- is it wise to teach that grace covers all sin, and that sin merely has negative effects upon this life? The Epistle of Barnabas demonstrates that early Christians clearly understood this wasn’t the case, and felt it was sufficiently serious that they needed to warn others in their letters.
Ok, I read your article where you say God’s grace (Romans 6:1) says we can sin all we want if that’s what we really want to do. But, I think you should have added that if someone desires to sin all they want, 1 Peter 4 says they are not saved.
I never seen it like that…alot of the teaching I was under, not sure 3 or 5 in book of Gal shall we continue in sin that grace may abide, now that scripture makes since
Hi. I believe that Paul literally meant what he said by “God forbid”.
In Revelation 14:12, the saints of God are described as those who keep the commandments of God(not those who break them if they want to because of Grace). In Rev 7:14 they are also said to have washed their garments white in the blood of the lamb. In Rev 22:12 Christ says that he will reward every man according to his works.
Works does not save us. But after being saved by grace we are to walk in newness of life like paul states. God hates sin, but he loves the sinner. And he doesn’t want us to continue in sin so we can be happy in this life and in the future life.
Only those who are righteous are Gods saints, Gods saints keep his commandments, and Gods saints are the ones who inherite the everlasting kingdom(heaven) Dan7:27
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keyboard is glitchy so pardon if it goes caps on me. My curious experience is this… that I believe both sides of this argument are right because… while I continue to struggle and fall into sin… every time I do, I get a little more sick, tired, hurt, and desolated… and I honestly… don’t want to sin, and I pray for the will to stop through the action of the Spirit… but if I suddenly decide “Okay, now it’s up to me cuz I have the power since I prayed it!”, I may run well for a while… but there will come an inevitable time not too distant from that point where I will fall, and I will fall harder than ever before.
So if the teaching is that “Once you’re saved, you can’t keep on falling into sin or you’ll lose your salvation” seems like the dumbest deal anyone would make in the world. A sinner who constantly sins is suddenly offered a deal FOR A pARDON, but the deAL IS THAT HE CANNOT KEEP SINNING ANYMRE OR he Will suffer A faTE so bad, it would be better haD He never been born. Imagine the drug addict who can’t get clean. Survivorship bias says that drug addicts can get clean if they really want to, bUT IF they don’t, it’s their fault. What about the ones who never get clean and die of an overdose? Was it just because they didn’t really want sobriety and freedom from that wretched dragon? Or was it just the matter of their circumstances maybe being in such a way that the obstacles were just too much for them alone?
It’s what in psychology is called a double-bind. It is like being in between two impossible requests. Sin, I cannot possibly continue in, so I must surmount it…. but I can’t do what is required to surmount it because the will is not in me, not truly. It’s impossible without marring myself in some other area (just think of all those celibate priests who go on to rape kids, or who just go on to be harsh taskmaster like in the good old days… did they all start out like that, or did their vows hold them to such an impossible degree that it wound up warping them?).
So… we do therefore mortify the deeds of the flesh through the power of the Spirit… but then is it is doing that, or the Spirit? I believe the Bible makes it clear that it is of God’s doing, and not of our own efforts.
So… if you are saying at the same time “You can’t do it by yourself, but if you don’t do it, you’ll BE DAMned to hell.” and you leave it at that, you’re goinG To PSyCHOlogICally drive a bunch of peOPLE INSANe, and some of them very dangerously so. Remember a few months ago, there was that mass shooting perpetrated by a Christian who was angry that pornography and massage parlors kept him sinning? Well… by the power of the Holy Spirit, he… totally FAILED AND went the complete opposite way!?! nO. iT WAS BECAUSE CHURCHES AND RELIGIOUS ZeaLOtS with an inherently contradictory doctrine had convinced him that “Now that he has the holy spirit, if he does not stop sinning, it is his fault.”
I believe that is what is so Satanic about the Church right now. It’s perhaps more sinister and diabolical than even the deepest, darkest, most perverted occult ritual. It gets people killed. It drives people mad. It turns rational people into cult members… the cult of the most generic and mediocre kind… but that’s the worst kind.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but if I’m wrong, then God is the worst torturer in all existence, and we’re all doomed, including everyone reading this and believing themselves to be sanctified… but I know for a fact that He is not.
Why would He choose someone He knew would fail just so they could watch themselves fail and be able to not do much about it? Why wouldn’t he just let them alone TO die in sin like he does with the unrepentant? tHAT WOULD BE THE FAR MORE MERCIFUL thing to do. tHE FORMER WOULD BE PURE EVIL.
sO… gOD DOES THE WORK. hE DOES IT IN AS MUCH OR AS LITTLE TIME AS NEEDS REQUIRE… AND INDEED, IF OUR SALVATION IS SECURED, HE WILL ACCOMLISH THIS. oUR FLESH WILL BE PUT TO DEATH IN TIME.
Best article on Grace I’ve read in my 61 years. I’m Printing it. I might frame it. I wish I’d had this kind of understanding earlier in life. I suppose you have to grow in the Spirit to actually understand this philosophy. Grace, true Grace, is unconditional love and forgiveness that we don’t deserve, but are granted anyway.
But won’t they be judged for their sins? AND secondly doesn’t he love us enough that he will bring judgment into our lives! And when we sin, does it not only affect our spirituality but it sooner related will affect our physical and mental health! There our consequences to our actions! Finally, when we sin repeatedly have we really accepted Christ as our Lord and Savior or have we just said the words! You can’t just say the words and because as Jesus said ” You have called me, but when you enter glory I will say I never knew you!
Such a great article. I needed it. I think it fully paints the picture of Grace. Thank you!
The soul that sinneth it shall surely die! Yes if you want to die spiritually and physically keep on sinning. And if you keep teaching lies you will go to Hell!
You said, “Sin definitely doesn’t prove that we were never His son or daughter to begin with.”
Jesus said, “38 and the field is the world. And the good seed—these are the sons of the kingdom, but the darnel are the sons of the evil one.”
John said, “He that committeth sin is of the devil”
Grace is for those who prepare their hearts by cleaning their hearts, not those who try God’s patience! The Holy Spirit will not always strive with man.
Hello. I just saw this and have only read a little. I know it’s five years old. Do you still hold to this understanding? Thanks!
Sin hurts other not just you. It’s not all about you.
You have opened the door to my understanding of God’s word. Thank you.
Yes, you can sin all you want to. However, when you are born of the Spirit of God you won’t want to sin so yes….you can sin all you want to, but you won’t want to because it’s not your nature. You’re no longer a sinner. It’s like, or the opposite of, a person saying “ I can quit smoking anytime I want to”. The problem is they don’t want to so they can’t quit.
Thank you. I’ve been struggling to grasp grace after a lifetime in a harsh legalistic church. Something clicked with this for me and it has nothing to do with wanting to sin. I came to Jesus for freedom from sin, after all! But in trying to understand grace, I got so trapped in trying not to sin and then trying to “let go” and let Jesus be righteous for me. I just kept spiraling downward until I couldn’t see God’s love. But when you said yes, you can sin as much as you want, I felt a burden fall off. Not because I want to sin, but because I finally felt the grace that he would still love me anyway. I think that might be the first step because I can finally feel his love and that he will help me not sin instead of always being disappointed with me for failing. Thank you.
Dear Jeremy, what you are describing in this post is Antinomianism!
I am not a calvinist and I think Lordship Salvation is totally false.
But what you are saying is heretical and condemned by both The Book of James and 2 John.
There can be NO Real Faith without works as a necessary Product, resultant from that same Faith.
Like Heat from a Fire, if there is a Fire, there necessarily is Heat, as the Product of Fire.
Where Real Faith is, there necessarily arises from that Faith, Good Works.
Where Calvinists is wrong is when they say that YOU, have to provide the Heat (Good Works)
Actually from the momment God lights the Fire (Salvation through Faith Alone) He also provides the Heat (Good Works arisig from Faith) because God causes that part of the future to become closed.
The future is partly open partly closed and God is The One who decides what’s what.
Therefore you cannot lose your salvation because God has predestinated you to have resultant good works.
You don’t need to do good works to prove your Faith is Real but BECAUSE your Faith is Real, God has predestinated you to do the good works and God cannot fail.
There Cannot Fail to be Heat, where God has lit the Fire.
Still God doesn’t predestinate everything. Some thing are still open. How obedient you want to be to God, how much sanctification you will have, is dependant on your submission to His Will.
That is the future that is partly open.
God bless and please change your mind my brother.
So few of us as Christians have embraced the unconditional love of God, His total acceptance of us as sinners, and His forgiveness that was given to us 2000 years ago when Jesus died and destroyed my sin. Blessings, my Brother.