A reader recently sent in a question about whether or not she could lose her salvation. I searched my blog high and low for somewhere that I had answered this before, and much to my shock, could not find that I had previously written about this anywhere. I am certain I have written about it, but since I couldn’t find it, decided to write about it anyway. Here is the question she sent in:
I m getting real confused on the subject of salvation as I am doing my bible study. I would be grateful if you could take out some time and clear my confusion.
Can a born again christian lose salvation? If yes, does that mean we can preserve our salvation by following some rules and doing good works? I personally dont believe in salvation by works but what confuses me is if we can lose salvation than we can protect it too which means we remain saved by works.
But if we can’t lose salvation, then what happens if we keep on enjoying worldly pleasures like fornication, orgies, adultery, drunkenness etc? The bible tells us that “such will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.”
This is a great question which millions of Christians around the world ask all the time. Can a Christian lose salvation?
Confusion about Losing Salvation
The reason there is so much confusion surrounding the question about whether or not Christians can lose salvation is mostly because of the word “salvation” itself.
As long as we think that the word “salvation” refers to forgiveness of sin, eternal life, escaping hell, and going to heaven when we die, we will always be confused about whether or not Christians can lose salvation.
Why? Because there are numerous texts in the Bible which talk about “saving” the soul from death, “saving” the life, being “saved” by works, faith alone doesn’t “save,” and so on throughout the Bible. If we read these passages thinking they are talking about how to receive eternal life, we will get very confused.
This is why I wrote an article a while back about the word “saved” in the Bible. Before you read further, you should go read that post, because I am not going to restate here what I wrote there. The bottom line idea, however, is that the “salvation” word family rarely refers to receiving eternal life. When the Bible wants to talk about eternal life, it uses terms like “eternal life” or “everlasting life.”
It would be wise for us to do the same …
Confusion about the Kingdom of God/Heaven
The second area of confusion that causes people to think they can lose their “salvation” is when they equate the Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven with “heaven” or with eternal life. Just as with “salvation,” the Kingdom of God/Heaven are not the same thing as eternal life. The Kingdom of God/Heaven refers to the rule and reign of God in our lives. As we learn to follow Jesus, His rule and reign expands in our lives, and we exhibit the values and goals of His kingdom through our words and actions.
The same goes for inheriting the Kingdom, or even “inheriting” eternal life. Inheriting is different than receiving. Inheritance is something given to those who are “in the family” and so the only way to receive God’s inheritance is if you are already in God’s family, which happens by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Again, I have written about this here: The role of faith and works.
So Can a Christian Lose Salvation?
Well, if you are asking, “Can a Christian lose eternal life?” the answer is no. If everlasting life can be lost, it has the wrong name. Besides, Jesus promises everlasting life to all who simply and only believe in Him for it (John 3:16; 5:24; 6:47), and if we believe that everlasting life is not everlasting, then we are doubting the words and promises of Jesus.
But if a Christian cannot lose eternal life, then why should we not just go sin all we want? Because although we cannot lose eternal life, there is much to lose by sinning!
For example, we can lose our experience of the rule and reign of God in our lives (that is, lose our experience of the Kingdom of God). We can lose our fellowship with God (1 John). Since sin is so destructive, we can lose our health, wealth, and emotional well-being. We can lose our spouses, our children, and our jobs. We can lose contentment, joy, and satisfaction in life. We can lose peace.
So while there are all sorts of things a Christian can lose by sinning, eternal life is not one of them.
Here is another post which might help as well: Once Saved, Always Saved?
By the way, if you want to read more on this topic, I strongly recommend these books:
- Eternal Security by Charles Stanley
- Secure and Sure by Robert Wilkin
- Final Destiny by Joseph Dillow
I agree it is impossible to lose eternal life, but it is possible to believe you have eternal life when you do not actually have it.
Interesting assertion.
Got a scripture text on that one?
Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
You have written about this before, but I think it was only in reply to comments. Since comments often get off topic, it might take a very long time to find which posts would include your replies to the comments regarding this issue.
We have met many people who repeated a prayer and were told they were “saved”, but had no idea what they were doing. They thought it was more or less a magic incantation that one said so “god”, whoever that is, would give them eternal something-or-the-other. They had no concept of believing in or trusting in Jesus for everlasting/eternal life, and no concept of following Jesus.
We once attended a church where most people thought that they should regularly attend church and have decent morals and that was pretty much what is required to “get to heaven”. Throw in some Bible studies and giving money to the church and you’re good to go. If there was more to their belief than that, most could not say what it might be.
Thought of you when hearing yesterday of Rocky Braat, the twenty something who went to India to photograph but when there, spent most of his time at a home for orphan kids with HIV. He returned to the US but then sold everything he had, bought a one way ticket back and has lived in that home for the last 5+ years. His filmmaker roomate /best friend from college didn’t understand, so he followed him there and filmed the doc, Blood Brother. Film was just released in December, so only have seen clips on YouTube, but believe the title refers to the bond between Rocky and a boy with full blown AIDS. Good stuff.
Yes, I should have mentioned this clarification. There are lots of people who attend church who think they have eternal life, or have said a prayer, or signed a card, or walked an isle, or whatever, but as you say, they have not believed in Jesus. So yes, this is the first thing with people, to see what they think about what Jesus has done for them.
When sinning, that question comes like a boulder. . . along with “maybe God is thru with me.” And after deliberately sinning, eternal life doesn’t seem living. . . seems more like a topic. Finding laying hold of life after sinning calls for much faith.
… To know Jesus is eternal life, Jesus said. He also said to His followers/disciples that if any denies Him, He will deny such a person too. If we reject Him, He will reject us. We can walk away from such great salvation and eternal life after we have believed (saved). Jesus repeatedly taught that only those who believe and endure to the end will be saved *Matt 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13
Jesus never taught that you cannot lose your salvation. Otherwise, He wouldn’t have told the seven churches in Revelation to repent or be cast away, to be hot or cold, else He would vomit them out of His mouth and blot their names from His book of life.
Jesus taught in Matt 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8 -the parable of the sower and the seed -that some would believe (saved) and would die due to thorns & scorching (cares of the world, deceitfulness of riches and trials/tribulations as a result of their belief).
He said in Luke 9:62 that those who look back will not be fit to enter His kingdom in Matt 7:21-23 – even those who call Him LORD, LORD will not enter if they don’t do His will and if they don’t bear fruit -John 15:2
Jesus left no one in doubt when He shared about the ten virgins (saved and pure) and the five who were not prepared at the end in Matthew 25 and could not enter.
If one cannot lose their salvation why would Jesus repeatedly warn His followers about turning back and looking back and rejecting Him? If anyone dispassionately reads what Jesus taught, the epistles and the letters to the churches (all written to believers) you cannot come to the conclusion that once saved you are saved forever, even if you walk away and recklessly operate in iniquity without repentance. We have decided to believe what we have been taught by others and not what Jesus taught.
1Timothy 1:19 is clearly teaching the danger of Christians being in danger of deliberately doing something to their salvation and/or eternal life.
I could not LOSE my salvation like my car keys, forgetting where I’ve laid them. And I am eternally secure in the ETERNAL ONE in whom I have placed my faith.
But, the scripture warn continually to saints to be vigilant, careful and on guard. Jesus, speaking to everyone ( saint or sinner) warns about losing your soul for something (even the whole world).
I fear not losing my salvation or eternal life. I am secure in Christ. But, faith in him is the requirement, not a work, faith in him. Walking with Christ in the kingdom has ups and downs. We can lay down, allow the weeds of the world to choke or shipwreck our faith.
We should WARN!
I read the article and disagree with the position that everlasting or eternal life ceases because of the change in status of anyone. Everlasting life is everlasting never ends but I can walk away from it without changing its nature. Jesus taught about the people who would reject this gift even after receiving it. We do nothing to earn it -it is purely grace through faith. We can lose our faith or stop believing especially by our deeds. Jesus kept rhetorically asking if the faith of His followers will remain when He returns.
In the natural -the fact that I get dispossessed of, or abandon my house that has a thirty year life span after two years of ownership does not make the house to have a two year life span. Neither does it negate the description of the life span of the house. Everlasting is everlasting but I can reject it or be cut off (or as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:27) be cast away from it.
Romans 11:19-23
“You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
Charles,
Thanks for including “all” (?) of the Rom.11 scripture passage. 😉
I especially find the last sentence intriguing, “And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
Do you see this as contradictory to other passages along this vein of persevering to the end? ie. the Heb. 6 reference that Ross Thompson used above?
Another thing for us all to consider is: Do any of us really know what OR “when” THE END will be (or look like)? I know we have prophecies, and the myriad of our interpretations of them. But only one thing is for sure… it will only come down like our Father, Spirit and the Son of God want it too! I’m glad it’s in His/Their hands. I trust Him… not many others really. 😉
As Sam usually challenges us, let’s just get out there and live the Truth!
Selah,
Mark
Mark, that is a good point! It is by living the truth that we start to experience the truth of what Jesus is telling us, and where Jesus is leading us.
Jeremy -did Jesus get it wrong in Revelations 2 and 3 when He spoke to six of the seven churches about losing their salvation unless they repented?
I have to go with Charles on this one. It is pretty unmistakable in Hebrews 6 for instance; For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the Heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, IF they fall away, to renew them again to repentance. Also Colossians 1v23 where he talks about the benefits of salvation that are theirs IF they be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.
Some where in Revelation it says that those who endure to the end shall be saved. In Revelation 3v5; He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, AND I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE; but I will confess his name before my Father and before His angels. I wish I could agree with you but the word doesn’t support it . Best to fear God and turn entirely away from evil, and work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Shawn Christopher Trumbo, right. I agree with you.
Charles, I think maybe you didn’t read the whole article. Even if so, I don’t think any of those passages you referred to are talking about eternal life.
Jeremy, agree with your post but Charles, Tony and Ross bring good challenges. Maybe the question hinges on the reality of things. . . like Shawn mentioned that we can deceive ourselves. Hebrews mentions entering God’s rest, the reality of something real of God, but says that some were unable to enter because of unbelief and others failed to enter because of disobedience. The passage talks about the people of God so the question, in view of your post. . . are those people of God who do not enter saved? Put another way. . . all the good things that you mention that speak of experiencing God that you can
(clumsy thumbs on small pad keyboard) . . . lose are lost because of sin and disobedience and unbelief. . . what does it mean to be saved but not enter in this life? Thinking that many are given faith to be saved but fewer act faith to enter.
I think to have eternal life, but to not live within the rule and reign of God (Kingdom of God) is to have life, but not have the abundant life. That is, to not experience the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc, that Christians are supposed to have when we live life in the Spirit.
Most Christians seem to live lives of emptiness. Following Jesus offers so much more, and that is what all the promises and benefits of the Christian life are all about.
God’s rest is a state of being, living by faith, trusting in. God. No worrying or slaving to qualify for living in the Kingdom, No legalistic drive to ensure that you(and everyone else’s) guaranteed place in Heaven.
The Wesylan doctrine of Sanctification is based on this. Many people understand it to mean “death to self,” which in honesty is everything that keeps you from being the REAL you.
But many people see it as grueling brand of complete Lordship. As singer and comedian Mark Lowery says, “God, PLEASE don’t send me as a missionary to Africa. I will wear marry a woman with a monkey on her head and wear Bermuda shorts for the rest of my life! Just please don’t send me to Africa!” So, surrendering to God is something to fear.
Alternately, GIVING UP is a much better picture of this REST. “God, I’m blowing this. I’m sick, in debt, and fighting for my marriage. One of my kids just “came out” and the other came back home. And my precious pet cat is refusing to use the litter box. I cannot carry this.”
In my mind, I see myself throwing myself on God’s plush, huge mattress of mercy. I sleep. He is such a healer. It took me a long time to fond my way here.
As for me, my son lost his faith due to toxic Ametican Christianitymoved to Ukraine and has 5 herniated discs. My boiler was leaking methane gas, so now I have no radiator heat, no stove, no gas dryer, no hot water and BTW, I have Celiac disease, which means, no wheat for me. Those so called gluten free Cheerios weren’t. They slayed my liver, but I’m still alive. People are panicking over my situation but I’m going to turn on my new electric radiator and research the Hapsburg Dynasty, the not so dead “Holy Roman Empire.”
God’s rest is good. Sometimes I trip before I find my rest, but His banner over me is love.
And that crazy comedian with the funny face, has recovered from legalism and wrote the masterpiece song, “MARY, did you know?”
That’s rest!
The evidence of eternal life is not that you never sin it’s that you never stop repenting and that you continue to grow and bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
In Matthew 7 Jesus seperates people into two groups. To one He says well done. To the other He says I “never” knew you.
Yes, but this is the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats, which is different than the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Regardless, notice that the ones to whom he says “I never knew you” have a blue-ribbon set of good works to back up their claim that they have eternal life.
It is not about works at all, either to earn, keep, or prove eternal life.
Charles Adiukwu, Did I miss the words “eternal life” or for that matter, “salvation” in Revelation 2-3? These chapters are about overcoming; not about getting, keeping, or earning eternal life.
John 3:36, 5:24, 6:40, 6:47 and 10:28. Jesus promises the gift of everlasting life to those who simply trust Him for it. Everlasting life is by definition eternal. If Jesus grants me eternal life based on my trust in Him according to His promise, how can I ever be lost again? Does Christ just grant us temporary or provisional life? Should He have chosen either of these terms instead of eternal? When Christ promises that those who trust in Him will NEVER perish, does this mean that they will never go to Hell or it just unlikely?
Yes, yes, yes! You have stated the truth clearly and succinctly. Thank you.
My ans. is YES. Xtains can lose his salvation, Jesus siad many that day will said we heal in your name, and I will say unto them depart from me you worker of iniquities. Salvation is for those that endure in the Christ to the end, Christians were those that call on Christ but does not believe in Him, true believer can not lose salvation, thanks.
Endure to the end of what?
John 10:27-28 is oft cited as a proof-text for eternal security but in its proper context actually means the opposite as those verses are predicated on the verse which immediately precedes them. Verse 27 states: “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.” Eternal life is only given to those who listen and follow – in other words obey. Conversely, no such assurance is given to those sheep who disobey.
Jesus taught that one can not only lose rewards but eternal life as well in places like Luke 12:35-48:
35 “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36 like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. 39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”
42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and ASSIGN HIM A PLACE WITH THE UNBELIEVERS.
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Clearly, believers have an obligation to be followers and to live lives in obedience to Christ lest we be assigned a place with the unbelievers = salvation lost
First, “salvation” rarely refers to “eternal life” in the Bible.
Second, people who believe in Jesus are called to obey and follow, but never to keep, earn, or prove eternal life. No statement anywhere in Scripture says different. Obedience and faithfulness are for fellowship.
Finally, the phrase “unbelievers” in 46 should be translated as “unfaithful” as done earlier in the same chapter. So it not about losing eternal life, but about losing privilege, reward, and honor at the judgment seat of Christ.
Wow. Coupled with a few other posts and his responses, I sincerely think he’s trying to lead people astray on purpose! So we can just go rob a bank murder a few people never pray never acknowledge God and not lose our salvation? Is that why Jesus said “follow the narrow road”? Because the road that leads to destruction is wide and broad. Mr. Myers, I understand you put a super special emphasis on love, and rightly so. But your views on the loss of salvation, casting out demons, is unbiblical. May God Bless you sir but I would just like you to know that’s how I see this.
I believe that eternal life is associated with salvation. We are saved from our sins and reconciled to God. We are now in Christ and He lives in us through the Holy Spirit. Eternal life is our possession the moment we are saved.
As far as loss of salvation you would have to be greater than God to lose it. To say you can lose your salvation is to say that what Jesus did on the cross is not enough to save and keep you saved. To say you can lose your salvation is to rob God of His glory because you are saying He can save you, but He can’t keep you. To say you can lose your salvation to to deny clear teachings to the church. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption is which is when we get our new bodies. We don’t persevere to say saved because we are preserved in Christ Jesus.
It’s a relationship. You can walk away from a relationship. Not many people are stupid enough to walk away from Christ after they’ve received Him, but if they do and go do whatever they want, the Bible tells us that Jesus will tell them “I never knew you”. Whoever says you can’t throw your own salvation away (YOU are the one at fault; I didn’t say nothing about God’s wonderful glory!) is a liar, even if it’s church teaching it’s not Christ teaching.)
Luke 21:18-19
“But not a hair of your head will perish. By standing firm you will save yourselves”
(If you don’t stand firm, you can, and will fall away).
I don’t know what kind of excuse folks with their ‘Once saved, always saved’ use for Hebrews 6:4-6 But the text makes no mistake in what it’s trying to say. ‘Eternal security’ folks need to take up their cross and just realize that! Heb. 10:26-27 and Heb. 10:29 are very straight forward too and the message is undeniable.
I don’t know nor do I want to know what excuse is used for 2 Peter 2:20-21. That is just, wow… if you can explain away the loss of salvation for that one. I gotta give you cred for your false teaching skills. But God won’t.
“He who overcomes will be like them, dressed in white. I will never erase his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.”
To think one can lose his salvation is a clear teaching of Christ. Take up your cross lest He erase your name from the book of life. Let me guess, I need more ‘love’ right? There is incredible love in the TRUE words of Jesus.
You can’t compare a relationship with other people to a relationship with God! You can’t walk away from God! When you put your faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross your sins are forgiven, you are united with Christ through being baptized into His body and He places His life in you through the person of the Holy Spirit. Not only that you are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (the day we receive our new bodies). We are new creatures in Christ Jesus. You can’t walk away and you can never go back to being what you were because not only are saved by Jesus Christ we are kept by him. Jude says we are preserved in Christ Jesus.
Looking at the context of Matthew 7 the people Jesus is telling “I never knew you” are false prophets. In Luke 21 Jesus is talking to His Jewish disciples concerning the troubles they would face and later on the troubles the nation of Israel would face in the tribulation period. Hebrews 6 is teaching the impossibility of losing your salvation because if you could lose it Jesus would have to die on the cross again to save you again which isn’t going to happen because His death on the cross is a once for all time finished worked. He saves you and keeps you saved.
I think you all are right.
Especially if you feel you could never lose your salvation, its so valuable paid for with His own blood and, He is such a wonderful, awesome, and powerful Savior. Keep that feeling.
However, the word says he who endures to the end shall be saved. Paul also admonishes us to check our own selves to see if we be in the faith. Its like Arnold Swartznegger says “Come with me if you want to live!”. There are dangers toils and snares that try to take away our faith. Jesus gives the parable of the sower. What kind of ground are you? filled with weeds? rocky ground? bird pecked? Break up the fallow ground and make sure your soil is good!
The Lord also gives the parable of the wheat and the tares. Are you a wheat or a tare? Examine yourself and make sure you endure. Tares don’t examine themselves. They just don’t. There are just people like that. I wish there weren’t. You’ve seen them. Like dark spots.
He knows those that are his. Its like a marriage, people know deep down inside if their love is dying.
If your love is dying do something about it. If you feel you could lose your salvation, there is a reason. It is Jesus telling you to hang on tighter to God. Hang on and pray until you hear his sweet voice telling you “Well done thou good and faithful servant!” until you hear him say “You are known of me”…”I am my beloved’s and he is mine”.
If you are sinning, struggle, and pray everyday to stop, until He gives you victory and deliverance. Keep hanging on. Don’t give up, he is not giving up. “He who comes to me, I will in no wise cast out”. Keep struggling, keep breathing, stay awake, don’t just accept sin because it is so deceptive.
The phrase “he that shall endure unto the end , the same shall be saved” is from Matthew 24:13. The context is Jesus talking to His (Jewish) disciples about the destruction of the temple and the coming tribulation period in which Israel as a nation will return to God. This is not instruction or doctrine to the church. When He tells the disciples to endure to the end He is talking about enduring to the end of the tribulation not the end of their lives. If you look in the book of Revelation you will see examples of enduring to the end is to resist following the beast or taking his mark. This is not talking about being saved from their sins. When Peter was walking on the water, but then started sinking he cried “Lord save me”. He wasn’t praying the sinner’s prayer. He was crying out to Jesus to save him from drowning. You have to look at the context to see how the word is being used. Paul said to “examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith”. He didn’t say to examine yourselves to make sure you haven’t lost it. He is imploring them to make sure they are in the faith. In other words some people think they are saved when they’ve never been saved because they’re basing it on some kind of religious work or experience and not on Jesus Christ. The parables of the soil and the wheat and tares have truths and principles we can learn from, but doctrinally they are kingdom teachings for the nation of Israel. If you want doctrinal truths about the church and church age salvation look at what the Lord Jesus through the apostle Paul is telling you. That’s God inspired Paul to write 2 Timothy 2:15 – “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”. You’re jumping back to the Gospels which are primarily concerned with Jesus coming to His own (the Jews) and His own (the Jews) rejecting Him. God raised up the Apostle Paul as His primary spokesman to the church and when you read and study the Pauline epistles you will see that salvation is a once and for all eternity transaction. It’s not God doing some and you doing some or God saving you, but you keeping yourself saved which is a works based salvation which is false teaching denying the marvelous grace of God!
The last lines of the Book of Acts says that Paul stayed in a rented place, preaching the Kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ.
The message that Jesus and Paul presented was exactly the same, Kingdom teachings.
The kingdom that Jesus taught was both a literal material physical kingdom that was promised to the Jews in the OT plus He taught God’s spiritual kingdom ruling in man’s heart. When the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah the literal material physical kingdom was set aside and the spiritual aspect was presented to the Gentiles. Paul never taught a literal material physical kingdom for the Gentiles. One day Jesus will return and set up the promised kingdom to Israel, but in the meantime the church is preaching the kingdom where God rules in man’s heart.
“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” (Acts 1:6-7)
Jesus didn’t correct them for asking the question about the kingdom being restored to Israel. He didn’t say the kingdom being restored to Israel wasn’t going to happen.
Acts 15
13. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof,
James states God is visiting the Gentiles, but at some point will concern Himself with Israel.
That is an interpretation that seems to suggest that Jesus taught the Kingdom and Paul taught the
” Gospel”. Two different messages ??
I can’t see that interpretation supported in scripture.
Surely there is only one Gospel. The one; good news of the Kingdom.
I suggest that if we accept that the Kingdom is now a “spiritual” Kingdom only, then that leads to the situation where the Kingdom becomes a religious idea that has little relevance to everyday life, very interesting to theologians, pulpiteers and pew audiences , but no dynamic to transform people into
action.
A criticism I often hear and see written is that Christianity is irrelevant.
Does God fail.
If His Kingdom has invaded the world then surely it is just as real and material as the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Maybe the church would be highly relevant if the church demonstrated the material reality of God’s Kingdom to the world.
This is not the kingdom gospel that Paul taught.
Matthew 10
1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Craig i thought what you wrote was really good and agree with you.Enduring to the end is not that the person hasnt already received eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ as once done that is a done deal.Enduring to the end is to encourage those who are persecuted to keep believing in Christ and dont lose there faith and trust in God and to be strong in the faith.In doing so they will get there reward from the Lord because they trusted him more than the fear of death.They overcame them there persecuters with love for the Lord that is true courage.brentnz
Rich we are not destined to struggle with sin but overcome it we only struggle when we arent walking in the truth that only in Jesus can we be overcomers it took me a long time to realise that .Now i dont struggle with sin like i used to because the victory has been won i just have to believe it.By faith we receive eternal life by believing in Jesus its by faith that we are saved and are overcomers by faith in Jesus,that sin shall not have dominion over us.We are not looking ahead to overcoming sin but are looking back at it through the cross we won satan lost we have the victory Jesus has given us his holy spirit to help us do that.Though in our strength we are weak but in Christ we are more than conquerers.Becoming an overcomer is the first step the next is to love the Lord with all our hearts thats the difficulty because we then have to fully die to self. brentnz
neville briggs says – That is an interpretation that seems to suggest that Jesus taught the Kingdom and Paul taught the ” Gospel”. Two different messages ?? I can’t see that interpretation supported in scripture. Surely there is only one Gospel. The one; good news of the Kingdom.
I suggest that if we accept that the Kingdom is now a “spiritual” Kingdom only, then that leads to the situation where the Kingdom becomes a religious idea that has little relevance to everyday life, very interesting to theologians, pulpiteers and pew audiences , but no dynamic to transform people into
action.
A criticism I often hear and see written is that Christianity is irrelevant.
Does God fail.
If His Kingdom has invaded the world then surely it is just as real and material as the presence of the Holy Spirit. Maybe the church would be highly relevant if the church demonstrated the material reality of God’s Kingdom to the world.
Craig Giddens says – I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. In the Old Testament God promised a kingdom to Israel; a real literal kingdom. As a matter fact many people will quote Isaiah 9:6 during the Christmas season and not pay attention to verse 7.
Isaiah 9
6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
When Jesus came He came as Israel’s long awaited Messiah. Go back and look at the verses I referenced in Matthew 10. Paul didn’t tell anyone to go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Paul didn’t preach the kingdom of heaven or tell anyone to done signs and wonders. 1 Corinthians 1:22 tells us the Jews require a sign. Signs and wonders are primarily for the benefit of the Jew. We in the body of Christ walk by faith, not by sight. Those are kingdom signs in Matthew 10 validating to the Jews who Jesus was. Jesus not only came offering them their promised kingdom, but required a changed heart. The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and their promised kingdom has been set aside for a future fulfillment. The kingdom of God is still the message of the church, but it is the spiritual aspect; the changed heart.
“the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.” (Romans 14:17)
The fact of God indwelling us through His Holy Spirit is going to make a change in our lives and will have much relevance to everyday life so I don’t know where you get the idea that “if we accept that the Kingdom is now a “spiritual” Kingdom only, then that leads to the situation where the Kingdom becomes a religious idea that has little relevance to everyday life, very interesting to theologians, pulpiteers and pew audiences , but no dynamic to transform people into action”. Because it is a spiritual kingdom it is God indwelling us making us new creatures in Christ Jesus and changing us so that our lives are dramatically changed. The church is not here to change the world. We are here as ambassadors for Christ calling people out of the world because one day God is going to judge this world.
I write this way because I am becoming more convinced that the Kingdom of God is much more than just the church. The teaching of Jeremy Myers takes us in that direction I think and that seems to accord with scripture.
I would argue that the church must change the world and has already changed the world. A couple of examples are; that it is the church that established universities, it is the church that established hospitals, it was church people who worked to abolish slavery in the west, church people lobbied the British Parliament for an age of consent, the emancipation of women comes from Christian teaching.
For better or for worse it is unarguable that the church changed western Europe in the wake of the decline of Rome.
I hear it often in the media and see it in print, the world keeps lecturing the church to mind their own business, stay in the private realm of ” faith based” inner imaginings and leave the business of life to those who have the supposed reality of the things that matter.
Where the church has capitulated to this reproach, secularism has risen apace.
Jesus specifically said that his followers were not of the world but at the same time were not to be taken out of the world ( Jn 17).
I see in the scriptures that the Lord intends to somehow dramatically intervene in history and radically reshape the world, but in the mean time it is clear that the Gospel calls us to live and work in the world in preparation for that day. Remember the parable of the talents.
p.s. I apologise if some of what I write is hard to make sense of. I am not a scholar, just a seeker after the Lord and His Kingdom.
Neville i liked what you wrote some really good points and churchs today are still making a difference in society though society is becoming more secular.My thinking is as the world gets darker and as it moves away from christian principles the light of Christ in believers will grow proportionately brighter.We are here to make a difference we are in the the world but not of the world.In Christ we have been given life and light to share with those in darkness so that they might have there freedom.brentnz
Thanks for the feedback Brent.
Sure ,calling people out of the world into the Kingdom is biblical, but it seems that too often Christians think that means calling people to come to church, which is not the same thing. Scripturally , the church is to go out into the world.
I hasten to add that I don’t stand with what some call Dominionism.
I have a friend who is in a political party that goes under the banner of Christianity and seeks to transform society by applying Christianity as a political platform.
I don’t think that is authorised by the Lord.
If we go into the world and exhibit the Kingdom in our lives, that is ; God’s will being done on earth as it is in Heaven, then I think the world will be changed in some way. Remember Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a small seed that grows into a giant tree, or a small bit of yeast that spreads through the whole loaf.
Neville there were times when dominionism worked for Israel which were the exceptions rather than the rule but generally it didnt sadly because of the wickedness of peoples hearts.Power tends to corrupt people ie in the case of nebbucanezzar especially when they succeed.Like you i think Gods people have more impact by just letting Christ work through them could be me but i find politics tends to involve power money and compromise.Regardless of what political state we find ourselves Gods sovereign and his will be done on earth as it is in heaven.My focus is real simple just follow Jesus with all my heart mind soul and strength and love others as myself and that is just following Jesus daily and trusting him in everything.regards brentnz
Yes, the kingdom of God is God’s rule throughout all creation, but here on earth the kingdom of God starts in the heart of man which results in changed lives which does impact the world. Only the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15) has the truth to show how a person can enter into the kingdom of God. Once people are reconciled to God and are changed by the life of Christ they will impact the world. People all over the world are entering into the kingdom of God by believing in Jesus, however the world will never be a place of righteousness and peace until the Prince of peace returns.
Yes, as some translators put Jesus’ words, the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.
Craig i agree totally church should be a slice of heaven on earth that is where corporately as believers come into the prescence of God.Its good when worshiping the Lord to feel his prescence and to feel connected to others because of Jesus.We had our carol service yesterday i was involved in the choir we combined with other churchs in the area it was a good turnout and alot of fun singing as we celebrated the birth of Jesus.It really makes christmas for me.If we love Jesus that should spill out into every area of our lives.He is the one that impacts others through us as we rely on him daily.Merry Christmas to you and your family regards brentnz
Neville i was thinking there have been men that i respected in politics like Nelson Mandala Abraham Lincoln Teddy Rosevelt Winston Churchill so there are exceptions all these people and many more struggled and overcame there own personal demons that is why they were great leaders statesman.That always involves faith believing in something greater than yourself and humility knowing that its not possible in us alone but with God all things are possible.brentnz
This thread started with the question, Can a Christian lose Salvation ?
I’ll leave that to others to answer at the moment, but I think it is certain that in the Kingdom of God, there are those who will lose something , i.e. their position on the A List. Jesus famously spoke about those who are first now, being last later, and those are last now, being first later.
I guess God will judge the greatness of those people that you mention above, but I have this thought, that in the Kingdom of Heaven, the notable high achievers will be people who nobody has heard of or celebrated in the kingdom of the world.
Neville i mentioned those people only because the discussion was talking about dominionism the combination of the church and state as a governing rule all those people were government leaders all of them suffered in there own way.Its was the suffering that prepared them for the roles that they were to play and there faith in God was what helped them get through.We are made stronger in our weakness no matter how important or unimportant we may appear to others.I guess it is easy to fall into the lie about political involvement that its hard to make change but some people have had a huge impact.Really it is God who deserves the praise he is the one that creats the opportunitys to make impact on the world as in our strength we can do nothing.In hebrews the great men and woman of faith there are those that seemed unimportant to the world and many suffered for there faith Our Lord knows everyone by name and every small act of faith we do he remembers because we do it out of our love for him that is what the christian walk is about living for Jesus and sharing that love with others.brentnz.
OK
Yes, I believe the Bible teaches that Christians can lose their salvation. Of course, that assumes they were ever saved to begin with and only God really knows that. It is futile to try to argue whether anyone is truly saved, since the best we can do is make an educated guess based on their professions of faith and their fruit. So for the sake of this argument, let’s assume that someone meets all the outward requirements in the Bible for salvation and they put their faith in Jesus, take up their cross, and begin to follow him. They tell us they are Christians and that they have begun a new life in Christ, so we declare that they are “saved”. Let’s even take it a step further and say that they begin to do great things for God and lead many others into saving faith in God. Could that person lose their salvation? The Bible gives many examples of people who began well but dropped out of the race and lost their salvation. I think the famous “Lord, Lord” verse was already quoted above and I shared a relevant parable in a response to another article on this site entitled “Once saved, always saved.” Paul pointed out in 1 Cor. that not everyone who runs in the race wins. Not all Christians will make it to the finish line as Paul did and then said to Timothy at the end of his ministry: 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
What people fail to understand is that the promises of God are conditional upon the fact that we do our part. We are not robots that God arbitrarily chooses to save no matter what we do. He may have called us but we responded and we cherish the gift he offered to us by doing everything possible to stay in relationship with him and be faithful, obedient servants.
So much of the Bible confirms this concept. Do you want incontrovertible evidence?
Heb 10 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
This does not mean that there is no repentance accepted when we fall, since we will always be dependent on the mercy of God, but I quote this to provide specific proof that an erstwhile believer clearly can lose his or her salvation.
I don’t think that loss of salvation should be our only motivation to live lives that please God. If it works for you to do everything possible for Jesus because you love him so much, more power to you. There are others however who need to be reminded not to take their salvation for granted. So many good quotes for this but I’ll leave you with this one from 1 Thess. 4.
1 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.
It’s not your place or mine to judge whether someone is saved or not. Each person has to examine themselves. That’s not to say we shouldn’t judge. There are things we should judge. For instance we should judge false teaching and the teaching that a believer can lose their salvation is false teaching.
If winning the race means keeping your salvation then that would mean only one person could be saved since only one person can win a race. If you look earlier in the 1 Corinthians you will see that all believers will stand at the judgment seat of Christ. This is not to determine salvation or if someone gets to enter heaven, but the believers works are judged and they are rewarded based on how they let Christ live in and through them. Notice some believer’s works are empty and burned up with fire yet the person is still saved (1 Corinthians 3:15). I’ve already answered your “Lord, Lord” verse, but you refuse the truth. I challenge you to name one person in the Bible who was saved and lost it.
The only condition that a person must meet in order to be saved is to believe the gospel (John 3:16, John 6:28-19, Romans 3:24-26, Romans 4:22-25, Galatians 2:16-21,
Ephesians 2:8-9). The idea that we can contribute to God’s salvation is a false gospel.
Lets’ see what the Bible says about a person who believes the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
We are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1: 3)
Some of these blessing include:
Our sins are forgiven – Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14 and 2:13, Galatians 1:4
We have peace with God – Romans 5:1
We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us – 2 Corinthians 5:21
We are a new creature in Christ – 2 Corinthians 5:17
We are baptized into the body of Christ – 1 Corinthians 12:13
We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit – 1 Corinthians 6:19
We are sealed with the Spirit – Ephesians 1:13
We are sealed with the Spirit unto the day of redemption – Ephesians 4:30
We are preserved in Christ – Jude 1
We will be confirmed to the end by Christ – 1 Corinthians 1:8
We are citizens of the household of God – Ephesians 2:19
We are in the kingdom of God’s Son – Colossians 1:13
We are complete in Christ – Colossians 2:9-10
“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:13)
So by your logic, Paul is saying that only one person gets a reward? I think you’re missing his point.
In 1 Cor 3, Paul is clearly talking to the Church, and is saying that Christians’ works will be judged. Even if they were faithful enough in their belief to be saved, the inferior works they did may merit no reward.
You may have addressed the “Lord, Lord” verse with someone else but not with me. I can imagine you are saying those people were never saved, but certainly you would not be able to provide any proof of that. The most obvious conclusion (and I’m sure Jesus was not trying to trick us or obscure his meaning) is that people who thought they were Christians and did “Christian” works are surprised to find out that they did not qualify for salvation. It is a warning to not be complacent and think that anything goes with God or that we can live however we want as long as we are doing something in the name of God. The context of the passage is about those who do the true works of God and those who don’t.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is saying that salvation is a gift of God that was bestowed on us through our faith, not because we earned it by works. There is however a responsibility for Christians, post conversion, to put out the effort necessary to walk in love as Paul states clearly later in the chapter. 5 3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous ( that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
He is telling believers, “Hey guys, don’t be doing that stuff, because if you do, and you don’t repent of it and change, you lose your salvation.”
So first you tell me that it is impossible to judge someone’s salvation and then you ask me to tell you who in the Bible lost their salvation. Only God knows so don’t tempt me to judge anyone with regards to their salvation. The Hebrews passage I quoted is very clear but I’ll add this from Paul in 1 Timothy who warned the young widows who “waxed wanton against Christ” that they risked “damnation, because they have cast off their first faith”. He added that some “are already turned aside after Satan”. Please don’t try to claim that they are still saved anyway or that they never were saved. That would be intellectual dishonesty or worse a shoddy mishandling of the Word of God.
I think you would also be wise not to judge me regarding false teaching. What I teach is far more biblically substantiated than what you teach on this doctrine. The doctrine you teach is actually dangerous because it can give people a false sense of security. The Bible warns us in numerous places to not take our salvation for granted and to do everything possible to stay on the narrow path. Jesus said that he cuts off every branch that doesn’t bear fruit. The choice is clear for all of us Christians. We either bear fruit worthy of repentance, or we get cut off and lose our salvation. I know a lot of Christians have been deceived about this but if the Church would embrace the truth, it would be much stronger and more effective.
No, by your logic only one person could get saved.
Matthew 7:15-23 is talking about false prophets. It’s not talking about believers whose sins have been forgiven through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus and who have been baptized into the body of Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.
Yes 1 Corinthians 3 is talking about the Judgment seat of Christ. Works are judged. It has nothing to do with a person’s salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us salvation is a gift from God through faith apart from works. Either you are saved and kept apart by God or you are saved and kept by your works. There is no mixture of the two. Nowhere does Paul even remotely say something like “Hey guys, don’t be doing that stuff, because if you do, and you don’t repent of it and change, you lose your salvation”.
You claim to be a student of the word of God yet you ignore the word of God. Again…
The only condition that a person must meet in order to be saved is to believe the gospel (John 3:16, John 6:28-19, Romans 3:24-26, Romans 4:22-25, Galatians 2:16-21,
Ephesians 2:8-9). The idea that we can contribute to God’s salvation is a false gospel.
Lets’ see what the Bible says about a person who believes the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
We are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1: 3)
Some of these blessing include:
Our sins are forgiven – Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14 and 2:13, Galatians 1:4
We have peace with God – Romans 5:1
We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us – 2 Corinthians 5:21
We are a new creature in Christ – 2 Corinthians 5:17
We are baptized into the body of Christ – 1 Corinthians 12:13
We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit – 1 Corinthians 6:19
We are sealed with the Spirit – Ephesians 1:13
We are sealed with the Spirit unto the day of redemption – Ephesians 4:30
We are preserved in Christ – Jude 1
We will be confirmed to the end by Christ – 1 Corinthians 1:8
We are citizens of the household of God – Ephesians 2:19
We are in the kingdom of God’s Son – Colossians 1:13
We are complete in Christ – Colossians 2:9-10
“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:13)
Notice the Bible is very particular about how and when a person is saved; when they repent and put their faith in the Lord Jesus because of His death on the cross and resurrection. Yet the Bible never talks about a person being unborn again after they are saved. The Bible never talks about a person being removed from the body of Christ or losing the seal of the Holy Spirit. If a person could lose their salvation the Bible would be very exact about how it could happen, but it doesn’t because it can’t happen to a Christian.
On the contrary the truth sets people free and the truth that salvation is a gift from God apart from works will never lead people to a false sense of security. On the other hand the idea that a person has to maintain their salvation leads to false religion because you’ve denied the Lord Jesus’ finished work on the cross.
It’s hard to reason with you, Craig, because you are so married to what you want to see in God’s Word, at least on this issue, that you are not phased by strong biblical evidence that proves otherwise. Most of the quotes you list are not even related to this discussion. Of course, all the blessings of salvation you list are true. But even after you have put your faith in Christ and are born again, you can die again if you make no effort to keep yourself alive in Christ. Sure, God’s salvation is unspeakably powerful and it is eternal (meaning that it never ends for the faithful) but God does not force it upon us if we decide we don’t want it for whatever reason such as the cost of maintaining it is too high. Do you think God suddenly stops respecting our free will because one day we decided to believe in the Gospel? Do you think he says, “Nope, too late. You already said you believed in Jesus, so now you have to spend eternity with us in heaven like it or not.”
Obviously Paul is not saying that only one person can be saved nor that only one can win a reward. What he is saying is that we should run as if that were the case. We are ultimately saved if we stay in the race whether others can run faster than we or not. It is those who persevere to the end who win the crown of life.
Sure, Jesus addresses false prophets in Mt. 7, but that doesn’t mean that he can only be saying that false prophets will receive judgment. He said that EVERY tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So you may have started out even bearing good fruit as a Christian, but if you fall away and start bearing bad fruit, you will be cut down and lose your salvation, unless you think there is a special fire for people like that in heaven. It is the ones who do the will of the Father in Heaven who are welcome in the Kingdom. The workers of lawlessness will be cast away, even those who at one time believed in Christ or were seduced by the false doctrine of believing that God’s law no longer applied to them and that they could sin with abandon and impunity. If your heart is hardened and you still can’t see this, with a humble heart, ask that God will open your eyes to see the truth. Read all the quotes I have given again, in fact, read the whole Bible again until you understand what God wants to convey about this vital issue.
What do you think it means to have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God due to regular practice of the works of the flesh rather than the works of God? Paul warned that the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience in Col. 3:6. Of course, the Bible teaches that salvation is a gift that could never be earned but it is clearly conditional. Even you must admit that in order to be saved you must place your faith in Jesus Christ and accept him as the Lord of your life. If you still want to be in control of your life and do whatever you feel like doing regardless of what God says, then you are not God’s child and you are not saved. Likewise, if you accepted being God’s child but then you decide you no longer want to follow Christ, God gives you the freedom to walk away. Those who are of Christ will continue walking in Him.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
There are so many metaphors in the Bible for loss of salvation, but if you refuse to see it, God won’t force you to either.
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:18-20)
Yes, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that the seal can’t be broken. Of course, God is faithful to preserve us if we want to be preserved. He will keep us in his hand if want to stay there. We must maintain our faith in Jesus Christ if we want to enjoy the benefits of salvation. We must remain faithful and true and obedient to Jesus Christ. Please do not dangerously deceive anyone by teaching them anything less.
Martin it isnt as clear cut as we would like because you could be doing all the works and not be saved and i think that is who Jesus is speaking to they trusted in there works for eternal life they knew who Jesus was but didnt know him nor had a relationship with him.In some way you see a clear picture of the jews they dont know Jesus but very clearly follow the law.Salvation is only through Jesus Christ.The word says if we love him we will obey his commands it is not out of fear as of under the law but out of love and devotion for what he has done for us.I still think that we are saved to eternal life when we believe in Jesus Christ john 3:16.Can we lose that salvation i believe so if we totally turn away from him by rejecting the conviction of the holy spirit in our lives.I say that because as a new christian i accepted Christ into my life and the holy spirit was convicting me to surrender my heart to him as Lord and i was resisting him i would not surrender to him fully and so he gave me a choice to either accept him or reject him.I believe he gives everyone the chance to make that commitment as Lord of there life.When we make that deeper commitment and follow him he will continue to perfect us through his holy spirit so that we conform to his image.By the way i knew that if i rejected him at that point that was it he would never bother me again i would have been eternally lost the thought was terrifying at the time.There was definitely a spiritual battle being fought over me i was very aware i needed to decide which side i was on.Thankfully i chose the winning one.brentnz
Please don’t misunderstand me. I am not preaching a salvation by works doctrine.
Who is to say what the exact circumstances are of the people that Jesus rejects in that parable. We can’t say for sure that they never had a relationship with Him. But the topic of this discussion is whether a Christian can lose salvation. Outwardly, at least, these people would have been considered Christians and they were even doing what they and others would consider to be Christian work. But there is obviously something wrong with what they are doing, because Jesus says he doesn’t know them. It does prove as you suggest that works alone are not enough to save anyone, and scripture clearly supports that concept. James tells us that both faith and works are vital.
2 18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
But I brought up that little parable to cause people to consider that they should not make dangerous assumptions about their salvation.
2 Cor 13 5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
People can think they are saved when they aren’t which is the urgent reason for teaching against OSAS doctrine apart from the fact that it is erroneous. God is not desperate to take anyone into the Kingdom even if they are defiant, disrespectful, or even apathetic. Remember the guy who tried to get into the wedding feast without the proper attire? Jesus spits the lukewarm out of his mouth. God has offered us a gift beyond all comprehension. If we spurn it, we forfeit it. How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? I am glad to see that you understand that “we can lose our salvation if we totally turn away from him…”
Thanks for sharing your testimony. You took the offer seriously and it has changed your life. You illustrate what I was referring to earlier in that you were initially terrified and motivated by fear of missing out on salvation, but now you understand more the motivation of love. A healthy balance of both will enable us to endure to the end.
Mt 24 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Brentz, awesome reply, struggle until you get it! Its worth it.
Many people refuse to do their part in their own salvation, because they love their sin. The struggle is dying to yourself and letting the Lord save you. Some of us have to die daily, until we overcome, or at least until the Lord gives us a final victory. Even then we also know satan returns to try to drag us back when we think the coast is clear.
Some sins we repent and never do again. But there is a single basic besetting sin each of us has a struggle with maybe until the day we leave here.
Yes, when we walk in the Spirit, its so natural not to sin. But some of us don’t feel him the same way everyday. What cha gonna do?
I say we all make our decision to keep on fighting.
The Lord is encouraging the saints to persevere, put on the armour of God, be vigilant. We certainly have our salvation, guard it. Don’t give it away, don’t trade it, and don’t let satan take it.
Craig, bro, as to your last reply, I’m sorry to say it seems ‘ye do nullify the law by your traditions.’
All scripture is given for our instruction, encouragement, and edification. All of it. Don’t let context cheat you out of what the Lord is saying to you. Let us learn from what he is saying to and about others.
I hope you can understand the spirit in which I am saying this. Thanks, man.
Surely, this bridge is solid
And will get us to the other side
Not for a moment would I wish
To cause one to doubt or slide
I’ve looked over the rail
And its a long way down
I did have a little sister
who danced on the rails in her gown
And just as she did her dismount
Lets just say –
I still have a little sister.
Rick really good poem i like the ending brentnz
True story.
She is grown now with four kids, two of the boys are taller than me.
Thanks for clarifying. I was hoping that your little sister didn’t have to stay little forever.
🙂
Rick i struggled for over 20 years as a christian in the end i said whats the point of struggling i feel powerless and useless so i gave in to sin that didnt work either but i was so sick of struggling and seeing the same results i became more miserable and even more powerless in my struggle with sin.I decided one day no more enough was enough i needed to get my life back in order.That was years ago and it was a process over 5 years that God dealt with all those things in my life that needed fixing most days i just said to him Lord i cant do this i just dont have the strength and he said thats okay you cant do it anyway just trust me.So now now i l know what it means to be an overcomer in Christ sin does not have the victory over me anymore because Jesus is my strength in my weakness.I know i cant live a christian life in my strength but i certainly can with Christ in me he is my strength and in him i am an overcomer.If this is speaking to others just want to let you know that you to can be an overcomer you dont have to struggle or battle with your walk or feel miserable because you give in to sin there is a better way.Just admit that you cant do it and ask for his help for the holy spirit is in you and he is the one who helps us in our weakness.regards brentnz
Martin in the parable of the wedding feast the mans clothing speaks of righteousness the jewish tradition is that the bridegroom gives all his guests wedding robes to wear he wasnt wearing them.Which suggests he wasnt clothed in Christ righteousness he also didnt know the bridegroom otherwise out of respect he would have worn the robes so he was cast out.To me it is still speaking of the Jews who do not see Christ as there messiah or savior.Though it has application to all of us in regard to putting on the new man like cloths we are born again not of the flesh but of the spirit. I still think that we are saved by faith when we believe in Jesus Christ as in john 3:16.We have that assurance that we are saved not by what we do but by what Christ has done for us.Once that commitment has been made the Holy spirit work is to bring us into conformity with Christ.If we choose to go our own way he will discipline us sin has consequences its to bring us back into line because he loves us but that doesnt mean we are not saved.Because when we were still sinners he died for us we must repent and turn from our sin we know when we sin the holy spirit convicts us we feel guilty and condemned.To me the focus on earth is to be overcomers in Christ know his power at work in our liveS on a daily basis.For sin shall not have dominion over us.If we are faithful to Christ in that respect we shall be rewarded but it isnt for the reward but it is for our love of Jesus.In a way we dont deserve anything anyway as all we have has been give to us from the Lord and to him who is worthy we give him praise.brentnz
Mainly what I’m saying with regards to the topic broached here is that we should not give anybody the false hope that they can resist the Holy Spirit and continue to live in unrepentant sin and defiant disobedience and still expect to be saved. What we need to teach them is to get their hearts right with God before it is too late. That is the true message of love.
Martin absolutely well put brentnz
I love you guys, you’re all awesome…
Martin
The Bible is very clear and specific about how a person is saved. If there was such a thing as a Christian losing their salvation the Bible would be equally as clear and specific about such a critical issue. The Bible clearly speaks of one being born again (John 3:3), but it never speaks of one being unborn again. The Bible tells us that if any is in Christ they are a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17). The Bible never speaks of one going from being a new creature in Christ Jesus back to the old person he was before. The Bible tells us we have been delivered from the power of darkness, and translated into the kingdom of God’s Son (Colossians 1:13), but it never talks about anyone leaving the kingdom of God’s Son and going back into the kingdom of darkness. The Bible says we have been we have been baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3, 1 Corinthians 12:13), but nowhere does the Bible say anyone can be taken out of Christ. The Bible tells us we are citizens of the household of God (Ephesians 2:19), but it never mentions anyone leaving the household of God. The Bible would clearly and specifically tell us is if there was something a person could do cause them to lose their salvation. You said “There are so many metaphors in the Bible for loss of salvation’ yet you can’t produce one single verse that specifically states anything about a person losing their salvation.
You noted the 1 Timothy 1:20 reference to those being delivered unto Satan and the 1 Timothy 5:15 reference to some are already turned aside after Satan, yet neither passage says anything about a Christian losing their salvation. Why didn’t you reference 1 Corinthians 5:5 “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” Notice that individual was delivered unto Satan, but will be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. This individual being delivered unto Satan didn’t result in loss of salvation, but in the destruction of his flesh, yet his spirit remains saved.
If you compare Colossians 3:6 with Ephesians 2:1-3 you would see that the children of disobedience refers to people who have never been saved.
You yank passages out the gospels that doctrinally apply to the Jews and the nation of Israel and try to place them in the church age. The gospels give us the account of Jesus the Messiah coming to His own (the Jews) and His own receiving Him not. There are many truths and principles for us in the gospels, but this is before the cross. Doctrine for the church age primarily comes from the Pauline epistles. Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures.
Martin, you said “Yes, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that the seal can’t be broken.” Well, actually it does. We are told in Ephesians 4:30, “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption”. Cross referenced with Romans 8:23 we see that the day of redemption is when we get our new bodies. While a man’s seal can be broken, God’s can’t! 1 Corinthians 1:8 says Jesus will confirm us to the end. Philippians 1:6 tells us “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ”. Jude 1 tells us we are preserved in Jesus Christ. It doesn’t say, as you stated, “God is faithful to preserve us if we want to be preserved”. You’re adding to the scriptures. Just to make sure we didn’t miss his point, in verse 24 Jude tells us “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy”.
Salvation is “Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:9), yet you teach salvation by works.
Salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8). This includes forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1: 7, 1 Corinthians 15:3) and eternal life (Romans 6:23). If you can lose it, then its not eternal life.
Martin, you don’t believe the plain teaching of scripture, you yank scripture out of context and apply your own meaning, you add to the scripture and you fail to rightly divide the word of truth. As a result you don’t believe in salvation, but probation.
Craig, The Bible is clear about people losing their salvation which is why it’s hard for me to believe you can’t see it. There are some difficult things to understand in the Bible but this should not one of them even though it doesn’t explain it in the stark antithetical terms that you apparently want to see. Just because the proof doesn’t exist in the phrasing that you demand, doesn’t mean the proof doesn’t exist. Things that are commonly understood are often not reiterated. It would not have occurred even to Paul’s original readers that he was teaching eternal security with anything he said. The only reason you see it is because you interpret what he is saying in the light of what you want to believe. You tautologically assign new meaning to his terminology to support your view. For example, he says God’s gift of eternal life and you assume that he means that the gift is offered by God eternally with no possibility of revocation. Where do you get that from? The simple unadulterated meaning is that God offers the gift of a life forever with him.
You even allow your lens of dispensational theology to cause you to minimize the teaching of the Son of God in favor of his servant, Paul, a mere man, and then you accuse me with Jesus’ words that I err not knowing the scriptures! Okay, I had a good laugh at that one, but all I will say is that brother, if you knew the scriptures, we would not be having this discussion. In fact, if you do not recognize the authority of the words of Jesus in your life, then maybe we can’t have a meaningful discussion anyway. See what you are doing? Anything that Jesus says that contradicts your pet doctrine, does not apply to the church age. With your kind of hermeneutic, you will be able to prove whatever you want and that’s a recipe for false doctrine not to mention disaster.
You say that I haven’t produced “one single verse that specifically states anything about a person losing their salvation.” You caused my to think of something my Master once said, “Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember?”
Would you consider someone who has been enlightened by Christ and tasted the heavenly gift of salvation and has received God’s Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of the Word of God and produced fruit to be saved? Well, Paul says that if that person falls away (yet another metaphor for loss of salvation) and begins to produce thorns and thistles, its end is to be burned (another metaphor for loss of salvation).
Heb 6 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
Wow, that last part sounds like what Jesus said. Paul accepted his teachings as valid for him.
Craig, I’m starting to get a little concerned about you. I gave you many citations of the vast repository available which would at least give most people pause to maybe rethink their position biblically but you chide me for leaving a particular one out. How do you know what happened as a result of 1 Cor 5:5? “Notice that individual was delivered unto Satan, but will be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. This individual being delivered unto Satan didn’t result in loss of salvation, but in the destruction of his flesh, yet his spirit remains saved.” Yes, I noticed Paul recommended that he be delivered to Satan, but who told you what happened to him? Who told you he didn’t lose his salvation? I don’t know if you’ll let me quote from the Old Testament but Satan told Eve that she wouldn’t die if she ate of the forbidden tree. Paul is not saying that the destruction of the flesh by Satan necessarily leads to salvation. What he is saying is that hopefully the man will learn his lesson and repent so that he may ultimately be saved. Man, I hope you can see that.
I challenged you to show me where it says the Holy Spirit’s seal cannot be broken even if we no longer want it and all you did was quote another verse about his seal. Yes, I know God is faithful and he is able to preserve us and keep us from falling and all that. But it is understood that this applies to those who want to stay in relationship with God. It doesn’t mean that he will keep us from sinning if we want to sin. If you demand of me that every little detail be spelled out in scripture, then you must abide by that same exigency. Why can I not read into scripture what is obvious and you grant yourself the luxury of reading into it what is obscure?
I don’t think you understood my point about Eph 2:8-9 because all you did was repeat your misunderstanding of the passage without interacting with the refutatory response. “Eternal” modifies “life” not “covenant”.
If you liken my doctrine of salvation to probation, then yours is akin to incarceration. Because according to your view, even if people who were once saved, no longer want anything to do with God, they will be forced to spend eternity with him.
What is it that causes you to cling so desperately to this potentially damaging doctrine which puts you in a league with antinomians and gnostics? The biblical view of salvation is not about earning salvation through works but about obedience to Jesus Christ and taking up our cross and following him no matter what the cost. There is no negative consequence in terms of eternity to encouraging people to maintain their faith in Jesus and resist evil and stand firm against the wiles of the devil until we are called home. But your doctrine (which I admit is popular among the itchy eared anything goes crowd) can quickly be misinterpreted and cause especially the weak to give up when the battle gets tough because after all, they will be saved anyway. It easily leads to lackadaisical, weak, and compromised Christianity. And that is if you are right. What if you are wrong? You may be guilty of leading people astray and causing them to lose their salvation. They could be banging on the door, like the 5 foolish virgins saying “Lord, Lord, Craig told me you would let us in no matter what”. If I’m wrong, I’ll sit around the heavenly banquet table with the ones who listened to me and they’ll tease me because I made them take it all more seriously than they really had to. Surely you don’t believe your interpretation is so blatantly obvious that you are willing to run that risk.
It is so important for us to be assured of our salvation. We need to confirm each other’s faith. We need to confirm our own faith. If we are not sure we are born again, we need to examine ourselves, and make sure. It’s easy to say to someone who has prayed the prayer, ‘now you are saved’, but only God knows the heart. The heart is deceitful above all things. When we start seeing the fruit of repentance,then we can know the tree, especially in our own lives. The Lord knows His own.
He warns us of those who did good works,but He says of some depart from me ye workers of iniquity I never knew you. The Lord gave us these warnings so we could beware and make correction. Even as a child we can come to understand these things.
I’m just sayin, we should make sure we really know the Lord for reals.
Yes, Rich. We must continue to exercise the same faith that got us saved in the first place. We are saved by faith, not assurance. We are also assured by faith in God. All those warnings like the one you mentioned are designed to cause us to examine ourselves that we are in the faith. It is not that we doubt the power of God, but we realize that the flesh is weak and we can be lead astray as happened to many in the Bible. The Bible would not warn so much about the danger of falling away if it weren’t a possibility with serious consequences. Paul, at the end of his ministry, was still working it out with fear and trembling.
Craig, bro, I get excited reading all the scriptures you have posted. Awesome!
Martin, when we were kids, every time the preacher preached we went down to the altar, little sister included, until the day came when we knew we were born again. After that, we still went down but prayed for others that came down. The key to it is being born again, you gotta make sure for your ownself.
Hey bro. Never be ashamed to go down for yourself if you need to. Of course, you don’t need to wait for an altar call to repent of sin.
Martin, I can imagine how you can feel you can lose your salvation.Maybe because you have been over the edge of the cliff much further than either of us, and experienced the impossibility of coming back from it. Maybe the deceitfulness of sin keeps you asleep so you can’t wake up so you are kept asleep so you can’t wake up …. catch 22. It’s a miracle you ever returned from backsliding. What if Jesus never came for you? That’s really scary. I’m glad He did, you’re an awesome bro.
Could someone lose their salvation? I’m sure we can see how, but would never go there again ourselves now. I’ve seen people go over the edge and not have the chance to come back. Does the Lord reach out to them that final time? What is their response? Is their heart soft or hard,only God knows.
For us I say, let’s not take a chance.
You don’t have to imagine, Rich, just read the Bible. Know what I mean? It’s not really based on what I have experienced or what I feel. I know Jesus is coming for me by faith. The deeper in Christ I get, the further I stay away from the edge of the cliff. Yes, that’s what this is mainly about. Let us urge everyone to not take any chances. Nothing is more important!
Rick the more i think about it we are to live as overcomers not strugglers since the day i decided to turn away from the sin that was controlling my life i never fell back into old sinful patterns not once, was i tempted many many times.The Lord will work in our lives one area at a time he needs us to give him full control so if an area is taking control we do need to hand it to him so he can change us.How do we do it immediately we say Lord you know i am weak but in you i am strong i leaned on him and overcame time and time again.We all have areas of weakness that we struggle in so dont feel bad.Struggling is us trying to do it in our own strength before this process i was so stubborn i refused to let God help me i wanted to do it in my own strength and so it was a roller coaster ride in my christian walk if the day went well i was on a high if it didnt i would would be down.Not any more now when things dont go to plan i still thank the Lord and when it goes well i thank the Lord.Because i know that all things work for good to those who love the Lord.The main area he is wanting is our hearts he wants all our heart not only some until we come to that place we will continue to struggle in our faith.The only reason to tell you this is not to boast because of what i have done in myself because i have nothing to boast about but if i did i would brag that Christ has empowered me by his holy spirit to be an overcomer just as he would want you to be.As Christians we are all called to be overcomers more than conquerers.Make a decision today to turn all your hearts to the Lord to acknowledge the areas you are holding onto that are controlling your flesh life hand them to the Lord and walk according to the spirit and not the flesh and he will give you the victory.That can be a reality starting today merry christmas everyone and may the new year be an exciting one as we put all our trust in Christ our Lord and savior.Brentnz
Brentnz, I like the way you are working out your salvation and it seems to be working for you. I’ve heard other testimonies that it has worked for them. But I’ve also heard people say that it hasn’t worked so well for them, maybe because they haven’t quite figured out how to lean on him. But what I tell people is keep working it out and find something that works for you. We are all different and different things work for us. If something doesn’t work, try something else. Never give up! Keep fighting the fight. Keep pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
This is a glorious season of remembering what God did for us through his Son, Jesus Christ.
“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”
Merry Christmas!!!
Martin dont worry i have had my fair share of failure over the 39-40 years as a christian it is only in fairly recent years that i have discovered that i am an overcomer in Christ rather than overcome by my old nature.I always like the verse greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world i used to believe that he that in the world was satan until the holy spirit revealed that he that is in the world is me if i walk according to the flesh satan then can influence and overpower me so i become a slave to sin guilt and condemnation.The good news is that if i walk empowered by the holy spirit according to the word then i am more than a conquerer through Christ who strengthens me.We then bind the strongman and he cannot bind us. regards brentnz.
Brentnz,
You do have some interesting ways of looking at things, but congratulations, you have been on the path for 40 years and are still going strong. Keep on persevering in seeking after him with your whole heart until the end. I’m not sure you really needed the Holy Spirit to reveal to you that he that is in you is greater than you but that is certainly true. It is also true that we can be more than conquerors through Christ as long as we remain in him. We have both learned that if we are in Christ and Christ is in us there is nothing that can prevail against us.
Martin not only is satan defeated but also that the Gates of hell shall not stand against Gods people that means that we can go into satans domain and take from him those he has taken captive that is a complete reversal of what he has done to us that is awesome brent
Lets’s go get ’em!
Amen…
Craig ,I really like the exposition of the scriptures you give and it’s really hard to punch a hole in it,as a matter of a fact it makes me excited about the assurance we have in Christ Jesus. He will not let us go easily
Brentz, you really encourage me to walk in the spirit so I will not
fulfill the desires of the flesh.
And Martin,yes we should persevere and not give new believers the impression ‘there is no fight of faith’ and ‘we dont have to do our part’ by a glib statement ‘once saved always saved’. Wisdom says there is so
much more to understand.
I love all you guys.
I just happened to drop in here by a Google search and I just want to say, each of you, my brothers, have had awesome encouraging statements, I just want to cry. Actually I am.
Merry Christmas to you all!
Rich,
You have a tender heart and the gift of encouragement. I’m glad our paths crossed and I’m sure it was not by accident. There is so much more to understand, and we will never understand it all at least on this side. I think the prayer of Jesus I quoted earlier sums it all up.
“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”
If we know them and they know us, we have eternal life.
9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord and may please Him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,11being strengthened with all power according to His glorious might so that you may have full endurance and patience, and joyfully 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light.
If we walk in a manner worthy of the Lord and please him in every way, bearing fruit in every good work and consistently grow in the knowledge of God, we will have a solid assurance of our salvation. I’m not worried about people who are living like that. I’m worried about the people who are walking in the flesh and not growing in their walk with God and their knowledge of Him.
I think discussions like these can help lead us into a greater knowledge of God. For example, if we know God, we know that he is a rewarder — a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. The converse is also strongly supported throughout the Bible which is that God disciplines those who disobey him. ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Rev 3:19. Everyone agrees that God will reward Christians according to the works they have done. So, knowing this about God, why would we assume that he would reward people who become Christians but then renounce him, live lives of unrepentant sin, and work against him and his kingdom. There are many stories in the Bible about people who were in the Kingdom, but lost their position sometimes with terrible judgments. The Prodigal Son left the Kingdom and went to a far country. If he had stayed there he would have remained lost, but he repented and came back and was restored. That is what we should be doing — encouraging the lost and the prodigals to come/come back to the Father. That is the only place of safety that we can biblically promise them.
There is so much in the Bible that would encourage us to guard our salvation at all costs with our very lives. Let us look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, and do everything in our power to abide in him. If we do that faithfully to the end, we won’t have to worry about losing our salvation. That should be a happy thought to end this beautiful day.
Merry Christmas!
Rich Merry Christmas you are an encouragement to us as well my friend it touchs my heart as i write these words with tears as i think of all that the Lord has done for me and now he works through us to witness to you thats a blessing.I believe exciting times are ahead for you as you move into the new year.As you trust the Lord to help you in your walk he will empower you by his spirit to overcome those things in your life that have been stumbling blocks in the past.I know that he can and i believe he will do the same for you.regards brentnz
Martin i have been thinking about what you said about craig martin and myself and often when i write i also feel the tears and i used to be embarrassed about that its not something guys usually do.But when it is the holy spirit working in our hearts he is prompting us because he cares whats going on in peoples lives we dont these people but the holy spirit does and sometimes weeps for them because they are hurting he understands.So sometimes when i write its his words that i write so its as if he was speaking to them..As i thought about what you wrote you also are being lead by the holy spirit i believe those words were an encouragement to us maybe for the coming year to hone those gifts he has given us to build up his kingdom.So thank you for that word of knowledge and that is a gift also that God has given you to build up the body as well.So you see we have all helped each other that how God designed his body to operate its awesome regards brentnz
Yes, Brent, tears are often a sign of receptivity to the Spirit and a way that he confirms truth. What you are feeling led to do, you must do.
Here is a thought-provoking poem by Stanley Moss that is a propos to our topic of discussion.
The Good Shepherd
Because he would not abandon the flock for a lost sheep
after the others had bedded down for the night,
he turned back, searched the thickets and gullies.
Sleepless, while the flock dozed in the morning mist
he searched the pastures up ahead. Winter nearing,
our wool heavy with brambles, ropes of muddy ice,
he did not abandon the lost sheep, even when the snows came.
Still, I knew there was only a thin line
between the good shepherd and the butcher.
How many lambs had put their heads between the shepherd’s knees,
closed their eyes, offering their neck to the knife?
Familiar – the quick thuds of the club doing its work.
More than once at night I saw the halo coming.
I ran like a deer and hid among rocks,
or I crawled under a bush, my heart in thorns.
During the day I lived my life in clover
watching out for the halo.
I swore on the day the good shepherd catches hold,
trying to wrestle me to the ground and bind my feet,
I will buck like a ram and bite like a wolf,
although I taste the famous blood
I will break loose! I will race under the gates of heaven,
back to the mortal fields, my flock, my stubbled grass and mud.
It might be more aptly named, “The Sheep who Refused to be Saved”.
I’ve been reading many of your Calvin articles. I was thrilled at the depth of insight as you refuted Calvinism . But , as one of your articles stated that you once were a Calvinist, but thru bible reading you came to believe it was false, why do you still have so many articles supporting Calvinism ? I’m a recovering Calvinist , and thru bible reading I’ve developed a zeal to refute it. It sure seems like you keep both sides . You endorse Calvinist books also. Are you confused, or are you financially supported by calvininists and want their money? Take your stand !