I got interviewed yesterday by Ken Briggs who is writing a book for Eerdman’s on the connection (or actually, the DISconnection) between the message of the church and the needs and issues of our culture.
He has noticed, as has many others, that although the church is trying harder than ever to get its message heard, fewer and fewer people are listening. Though in the past it has primarily been Mainline churches that were in decline, Southern Baptists are now in decline as well.
Ken Briggs wants to know what the church can do about this… if anything.
He and I met at a Starbucks in East Stroudsburg University and discussed these sorts of questions for about three hours. It was quite an honor to be interviewed by him, since he has also interviewed other writers and theologians around the country, including Stanley Hauerwas,
Ken is conducting research and interviews this year, and the book is scheduled to be out in 2013.
Here is what he said his book will be about:
My aim is to find as best I can where the Bible exists in American life and particularly whether it makes much, if any, difference in the social, economic, community lives of the country. To what extent does or doesn’t Bible study distance itself from the overwhelming values and priorities of the culture? I see the prodigious activity surrounding Bible “reception” but want to know more about its impact and transformation on both those who take part in such activity and those who don’t.
Based on what he and I discussed, here are my questions for you:
1. Is there really a disconnect between what the church is saying, and the questions that the world is asking? Why or why not?
2. If so, what can the church do about it? Should we change our message? How about our methods? Or should we just keep plodding along hoping that the culture will finally “get it”?
I have my own opinions on these things–some of which you might know from reading this blog–but I want to hear from you.
1. Interesting to note how you formulated the question…”Is there really a disconnect between what the church is saying, and the questions that the world is asking?”
The church is always giving answers and then waiting for the world to ask the right questions. (Percolate on that a bit)
Western Christianity presents a “message” of INFINITE (infinite grace, mercy, love, forgiveness, et. al) in the package of a God that is completely static, rigid, unevolving. The party line is that God does not change, alter, or morph. He/she must, by the definition of perfection, remain constant. Easy problem to fix, but it requires effort on our part to believe that what we know about God is only what He/She allows us to know at the right time it is necessary to know it. That’s where we can get at a Creator that is fluid, active, changeable, and continuous.
2. When Nietzsche said, “God is dead,” maybe he was correct. By that, I mean that the contemporary modes of defining God were no longer meaningful or valid. Is Christianity dead? Maybe…or maybe the traditional ideas of Christianity are dead instead of the actual belief system.
To “just keep plodding along hoping that the culture will finally ‘get it’?” is a wholehearted run at lunacy.
“Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” ~Albert Einstein
New message, new approach, new understanding of mankind’s struggles in an ever-changing world…it’s called the LIVING word, the LIVING savior, the LIVING God…that’s not relativism…that’s LIFE.
Yes, we do that, don’t we? We give answers to questions nobody is asking, and then tell them this is because they are asking the wrong questions. As you say, this is lunacy!
He asks what the church can do about it… I would say they need to figure out what unconditional love means and actually show it.
You’re right…he’s asking for practical applications. There in lies the rub.
Saved – Unsaved
Believers – Unbelievers
Christians – Pagans
Us – Them
All bullshit. If we have to conjure labels to distinguish between competing interests, then how about just going by the “haves” and the “have-nots”? We’re not talking about financial resources here. We’re talking about people with varying degrees of health, quality of life, education, opportunity, hope, capacity to love, time, and passion.
The act of the “have” sharing time, heart, and resources with the “have-not” is called the washing of feet. (John 13:1-17) But beware. The moment you think you have become a card-carrying “have” it is wise to reevaluate. Jesus said to Peter that we all need our feet washed from time to time. And I would argue that it’s more difficult to allow your feet to be washed than to wash another’s. Because by allowing someone else to minister to our needs requires us to admit we are “have-nots” just like the rest of the world around us.
Get it…we’re all “have-nots”. The homeless guy with the bad attitude and BO to match is us! Why don’t we get that?!
So true! Unconditional love is so lacking.
He also mentioned sacrificial living, which I think is one way to express love…
Yep, it is not “us”conditional love, it is “un”conditional love, why don’t we get that?
I liked the term “us”conditional so I posted about it at http://abnormalreaction.wordpress.com/2012/05/04/usconditional-love/
Wow. Very nice. Have you written a post about that? Very catchy!
Yeah, that term hit my mind so I thought I would write about it 🙂
I would argue Christianity is only in decline in the western world, and not the eastern. In places like China, throughout Africa, and in the Balkans, Christianity is actually growing. Why? Christianity in some of these places are genuinely a way of life, not just something that is practiced on Sunday mornings.
Greg,
Good point. We talked some about this, and why Christianity seems to be doing so well in Asia and Africa.
How do you think we can help make Christianity more of a way of life in the West?
I believe the only way the Western world will return to a vintage form of Christianity, is when it repents from a consumeristic, individualistic, and self-centered mindset, and instead turn to a more communal, selfless, people where faith in Christ is more conducive. America/Europe used to be this way at one time. But, there came a point in time when these two societies went from nations of need to nations of want. And, in the process threw Christianity out as well.
I am not sure we threw Christianity out as much as we incorporated it in. Christianity became the “civil religion” of the Empire. It is as Kierkegaard loved to say, “When everybody is a Christian, nobody is a Christian.”
It’s not so much that we need to make a radical change into something new, but that we’ve changed the core of it all so much already. Even changes that the church has made for good (over the centuries) we manage to find a way to ruin it.
Case in point — look at modern Sunday School classes. The original idea was to evangelize and serve the rural poor. Now, it’s focused on people already in the church.
Joey,
So true. The original goal of Sunday school has really lost it’s way!
Finally, some good news. People are starting to think for themselves.
In 2 Cor 4:5 Paul said “For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake.”
The church does not say this. The church says, “We are the mediators between you and Jesus; no one can come to Him but through us.” Oh, they may let you off the hook long enough to pray the prayer of salvation, but as soon as that’s done it’s back to “Come to us, all who are weary and heavy-laden, so that you can be our bond-servants with your tithes and volunteer service. For what we preach is ourselves as your way to belong to Jesus.”
The church is not a little bit off in its message – it’s way off.
Yes, well, if I ever plant a church, it is going to be called “Jeremy Myers Memorial Fellowship and Worldwide Evangelism Center.”
I’m kidding!!!!
The church has become so insular – it really is a disconnect between two cultures. Church has become a culture of its own – a society with rules and language all its own. And really, those outside the church and those inside the church cannot connect when they don’t even speak the same language (let alone live in the same culture).
Those of us who have left the church can translate – if we want, if we see a point, if anyone really wants a translation. And therein lies another issue: those inside the church aren’t really interested in understanding what those outside of it are saying – they have the ‘them’ all pegged in their slots and numbered for assimilation or rejection.
Hmm…I think I’m a little fed up with church tonight, so I will stop now. 🙂
A safe Gospel is being propagated. Bibles have ‘new’ revelations based upon a bastardization of so-called Greek and Hebrew translations being used as a basis for “new” Bibles led by committees including outspoken, radical homosexuals, male and female.
We were warned quite clearly in the parable about the seed (Word) being scattered and how individuals will react. Can’t it apply to the churchs” We are told in the latter days, “even the elect shall be deceived.”
I believe the Holy Ghost is moving in mighty ways in nations that are under great oppression to the Gospel. I am slogging through the magnificent *Fox’s Book of Martyrs.* Just think for a moment: would you tolerate being literally grilled on irons over open fires while alive, or renounce Christ?
Daniel Pearl had his head sawed off by his Muslim captors on the Internet for the world to see because he would not renounce his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
It has always confused me when I read about the saints around the throne of God that had been beheaded. That is now becoming a more common occurrence in this world as Islam takes a firmer hold and spreads.
Aren’t we much more comfortable with a ‘Prosperity Gospel’ than being nagged about an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God One Who is Holy? And is jealous? And will judge ALL of humanity?
Others have brought up what I see as a cancer in our churches of late; shepherding. Like @Mike Grant mentions.
We see great churches packed and televised and hear of a universal god that just wants to be seen as a great teddy bear in the sky. These super-star pastors/teachers don’t even crack open a Bible in their ‘sermons.’
We are fat and happy. God has been taken out of the public square and public schools. {“Education is useless without the Bible.” – Daniel Webster.
– Read more at Bible Quotes From Famous People}.
We are looking to our gov’t to meet our needs (our god-head). Rx companies calm our souls, minds and help us rest without aches and pains.
I fear we will not be willing to drop to our knees and turn to Him and confess our sins so He will heal our nation until we suffer more loses of our financial stability and freedoms.
Personally, when all my best efforts and smarts left me sitting under a bridge, drunk and dope addled, did I realize how powerless I truly am. Is this the lesson our nation needs?
At the same time, I did hear a pastor prophesy about a decade ago for churches to start building because we were heading for this time where all our culture has put their collective faith into will fail to fulfil them and they will come banging upon the doors of churches that are alive and vibrant. Revival is aching to break out in America, I firmly believe, ALL in God’s time. But, it will be contingent upon the “Church” cleaning its own house and moving from a corporate structure to being the “Body of Christ,” as was originally intended.
(I hope the rant wasn’t too much Jeremy – it just flooded out),
Rant away! I like rants when they are loving and insightful rants!
Jeremy, I’ll make you a deal – just delete the rant above and I’ll post what my first thoughts were when I read your post – and congrats, you are one that should be consulted, I have come to believe.
Our churches today lack a spiritual cornerstone – that being UNITY.
I always found God’s declaration when looking down upon the Tower of Babel to be a stunning statement of the potential power available to us.
Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
So, in a nutshell, the Body of Christ in most Western civilizations lacks unity. We are gulfs apart from having a common language, or a single purpose for Him these days.
Satan can use the same tool of confusion to keep us scattered and weak?
Also, the great Spiritual Awakening being seen is the simplest of messages, they are being fed milk, but sincerely desire meat.
It seems we’re pretty much content being fat, lazy, complacent, bottle-fed babies in our neck of the woods (globally).
If you don’t mind, I will leave the other comment…. I like what you have to say both there and here.
I sure appreciate all the comments made–mind-bending and encouraging.
I believe Christendom is failing because we keep thinking that it’s a religion and doing our best to perfect it as such. When we stop making it about everything that it isn’t (a successful human enterprise, saving the world, denominational differences, a clean culture, etc.), and focus on Jesus as the all in all, then it will make sense. All the nauseating nonsense will fade away.
Esther,
Excellent point. Yes, as long as we think of Christianity as a religion, as a list of things to do or not to do in order to please or appease God, we will never speak to our culture. Jesus knew that His relationship with the Father was not about these sorts of lists, which is why people loved to hang out with Him.
Esther,
Well said. Bravo!
Maybe, the very philosophies, religions, cults, and organizations we, as a church, have spoken outwardly against for decades as cult-ish or heretical, are in fact the exact ones we have been trapped in ourselves all along. If the world doesn’t see unconditional love in us, all they see is us, hypocritical and self-righteous, with no depth to our message. The world sees us trappped in our own “cult.” I know from experience.
I like what Bishop Robinson said in the early 60s from his book, “Honest to God”,
“Life in Christ Jesus in the new being, in the Spirit, means having NO ABSOLUTES but His LOVE, being totally uncommitted in every other respect, but totally committed in this.”
Unfortunately, LOVE has been the biggist mystery for the church to grasp. The church has hijacked LOVE! God’s esseence, his very foundational nature, is His Love! The church has misrepresented God’s essence and neatly wrapped it into a behavior modification system of rules and regulations that we call love. I’ve heard it called “Spiritual Abuse.” We commit to the law, which Paul says kills, and we inadvertently snuff out the Spirit, which is Life. So by ruling with the dead letter of the law, the church in fact “kills” relationships by “killing” peoples’ trust in LOVE=Jesus. Once you’ve damaged and de-valued the relationship dynamic between us and God, so soon to fill the space is ritualistic and mundane things we call our “Christian walk.” How much easier for an “organizational Church” to fill that void, the void of a true and dynamic, life-altering communion with the Living God, with steps and organizational charts to help give value to what LOVE abolished the need to do in the first place?
The church for too long as beared a false witness, essentially lied about the true nature of God, by committing itself to everything else, BUT LOVE! And since we have replaced the Holy Spirit with a “Paper Pope”, the dead letter, we can no longer decipher the Holy Spirit’s unctions from Satan’s! Is it possible that Satan, having no power over the Holy Spirit, but masquerading as an “Angel of Light”, having just enough power over our thoughts, and subsequently our actions, that through the reading, studying, and meditating ONLY on scripture, he can ultimately prevent us from knowing true LOVE? Is this not one good mass deception? Satan’s lie is getting us Christians to replace True LOVE with a counterfeit love that the church has already embraced! What a lie, uh? Replacing a lie for truth!
2 Corinthians 3:3 “And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.”
What if the churchs’ decline is linked to this verse? We have the Word of God written on our hearts! Christians NEED to know this! We spend so much of our “Christian Walk” memorizing the “dead letter”, that we forget about all of the inspiring living letters within all of us? Have we not ignored the Holy Spirit by placing the dead letter/Bible AS our God? Has the churchnot left generations of emotionally, spritually, and mentally dysfunctional Christians unable to hear from the Holy Spirit? The problem is we preach the “dead letter” as Life to the world and they simply see us as another fanatical cult. We need Christians with a labotomy of Holy Spirit infused Life, Truth, Light, and LOVE!
Luke,
So true. We are loving with a fake and counterfeit love which only loves on our own terms and in ways that keeps us comfortable. This is not the true, unconditional love of Jesus.
Remind anyone of a ministry you have been or are now involved in?
Wonder why people are fleeing the church?
Mind Control Tool Box
by Mark Vrankovich
Copyright © Cultwatch 1996 – 2001. Written by Mark Vrankovich
Important Note
Remember, all together these form Mind Control. Separately they are undesirable but they are not Mind Control.
Deception
A cult will use deception. The cult will not normally tell people exactly what they believe, their origins, what they practice, and what life is really like in the cult, because if people knew they would not join. This information is taught to the new recruit slowly and in pieces – a “frog in the pot” tactic.
Deception is a key pre-requisite to Mind Control. The cult must be willing to deceive people. The Bible teaches that Christians are not to use deception. Many cults know this and yet practice deception.
Deception is a very effective tool in the Mind Control Tool Box.
Exclusivism
A mind control cult will promote an “Us verses Them” environment. They will teach their members that their church is the only true church, the only church in which you can be saved. If you leave the cult then it is said you have “fallen away from God.” This is done to instill fear in the members which can be expressed like this: If you ever think of leaving this body of true Christians or do something which forces us to expel you from this body then you will be losing your salvation and God will hate you. There is nowhere else you can go and still be a Christian. This is a powerful control mechanism.
Exclusivism is fear based control mechanism, the Bible tells us that we have no reason to fear except for a healthy fear of God. Exclusivism imposes false criteria on salvation – “If you do not join us and/or if you are not doing what we are doing you are not saved.” This of course is a serious doctrinal error ingrained in the practice of the group. Remember, just because a group does not teach it officially does not mean they do not practice it.
Fear and Intimidation
Leadership is feared. To disagree with leadership is to disagree with God. If the leaders tell you to do something, you had better do it. Often intense breaking sessions are employed to destroy any supposed rebellion or threat to the leadership. These sessions can involve many people at once attacking the character and motives of the target.
The Bible tells Christians not to “lord it over people,” but rather to be one another’s servants. Jesus attacked the Pharisees who placed themselves between God and the people. It does not take much to realise that fear and intimidation is not the biblical model for Christian leadership. (Fear and Intimidation is very different from having respect for Christian leaders.)
Love Bombing
A mind control cult practices love bombing or false love. When you first join the cult you will gain instant friends, you’ll be hugged and everyone will want to talk to you. For someone who is lonely or comes from out of town this is especially wonderful. However, after a while this “love” becomes conditional on your performance and/or you measuring up to the cult’s unpublished standards. If you ever leave the cult then you know you will lose all of your new friends just as quickly as you gained them. Like an unhealthy marriage relationship, love is switched on and off to control. Of all of them, this is probably the most effective implement in the mind control tool box.
We are relational beings with the ultimate aim of regaining a relationship with the God who created us. It only requires common sense to see the power this “love bombing” tool could have on someone. We have all seen it at work in the cults, at work in manipulative relationships and at work as peer pressure in schools and society in general. This false love is a distortion of true love which is defined in 1 Corinthians 13.
Information Control
Those who control the information control the person. In a mind control cult any information from outside the cult is considered evil, especially if it is opposing the cult. Members are told not to read it or believe it. Only the cult-supplied information is true.
This technique is really a partner to deception. Common sense tells us that a person who does not consider all information may make an unbalanced decision. Filtering the information available or trying to discredit it not of the basis of how true it is, but rather on the basis of how it supports the party line, is a common control method used throughout history. A Christian should have nothing to fear from any source of information – after all “Falsehood runs from truth, but truth stands solid against falsehood.”
Reporting Structure
In a mind control cult like in Nazi Germany or Communist Russia you must be careful of what you say or do; “The walls have ears.” Everyone is encouraged to watch out for “struggling” brothers and report what they see to the leadership. Often information given in deepest confidence will find its way to leadership. Cult members are sometimes shocked to find their problems preached about in the cult meetings. People comment that while in a Mind Control cult they were acting, always being worried about people watching.
This is opposite to the biblical model. The Reporting Structure is an important fear producing method in the Mind Control Tool Box.
Loaded Language
The cult will have their own language and terms. These prevent people outside the group being able to engage in “dangerous” conversations with members and it gives the members a sense of belonging. It also allows a phenomenon known as thought stopping where a simple word can stop any thoughts in the member’s mind which are against the cult.
Harmless by itself, “loaded language” is used in all areas of life from the computer industry to orthodox Christianity. Every group or spet field develops its own words or meanings for words, and this is often called “jargon.” However, when mixed in with the other Mind Control tools, “loaded language” can take on a threatening attribute which is unbiblical. For example, in the International Church of Christ cult “loaded language” is used throughout the world – a typical conversation might go like this…
“The Bible says that we are saved by grace, not by works. You are telling me that I must get people baptised or I’m not a real Christian,” says the Disciple.
“I am more spiritually mature than you and you are questioning what I am saying. You are PRIDEFUL and REBELLIOUS, you need to get RADICAL about your SIN,” replied his Discipler.
Prideful & rebellious = You are the problem, not the ICC teaching.
Radical = Plunge into obeying the ICC teaching.
Sin = Thinking or acting outside the ICC rules, often including disobeying your discipler.
Time Control
Mind control cults keep their members so busy with meetings and activities that they become too busy and too tired to think about their involvement.
Again, common sense allows us to see that this would be an effective tool for controlling people. The flip side to this is that if a person can get out of the cult’s “time control” schedule then after a few weeks, in our experience, they can begin to contrast “normal” life with the controlled cult environment and often this results in them leaving. The ICC, in New Zealand at least, has preached that it is best to not have a holiday at Christmas because that is when most people fall away from God (leave the ICC).
Relationship Control
A mind control cult will seek to maneuver your life so as to maximise your contact with cult members and minimise your contact with people outside the group, especially those who oppose your involvement. Cult members will be moved into cult communities or cult flats where they can be watched more closely and immersed in the cult environment. The cult must cut off any contact through which information or reminders of your past life will come. You cannot marry or date anyone outside of the cult and often your spouse will be chosen.
Controlling relationships is a powerful Mind Control method. Friends and family are important influences on our lives. By controlling those who we associate with and those who we respect, a Mind Control cult can influence a person towards becoming like those people who are “good” to be around. The Bible tells us that those we associate with do effect us. Every parent knows that the peers their child associates with affects the child, moving them towards what the peers have as a norm. All people are affected by society and the groups to which they belong. By defining who is “good” and who is “bad” the Mind Control cult is attempting to move the subject towards the “group norm” that their group has. Often intense pressure is put on people to stay away from the “bad” people which are often friends, parents and their old church.
Personal Identity Replacement
Three stages are involved; breaking, indoctrination and finally refreezing.
Fear and intimidation are used to break a person. Often the cult calls into question a person’s salvation, and in some cults a person is not truly broken until they are crying uncontrollably.
Next the cult indoctrinates the person by pumping them full of cult doctrine and systematically destroying anything which does not agree with the party line. If a person objects to anything, their sincerity, character and motives are questioned.
Finally the person is frozen into the cult member mold. They become like all the other cult members to a certain degree. Friends and family will complain that the cult member has become a different person. Often in the early stages the cult member will float between their true identity and their cult identity, but as their cult involvement continues their true identity becomes more and more repressed.
This is a well established method of changing how people act and think, to mold them into a team member like everyone else. The Armed Forces use this method in basic training and throughout the career of their soldier. The difference is, that unlike in a Mind Control cult, the Armed Forces recruits know what is going on; it is expected. The Mind Control cult recruit goes through this process covertly. The cult recruit does not lose his true personality but rather represses it. They realise that by conforming there is more acceptance and less pressure to change. This is why people in a Mind Control cult will often seem to think, act and sound the same, whereas in a normal church group individual personalities are more evident.
I enjoyed the responses to this post.
I believe Christendom is failing because it should, because we consider it a religion. But religion is a man-made system that tends to go against the flow of what the Lord Jesus brought to life through His death and resurrection.
When we realize Him to be all in all–to be the meaning and content of everything that all creation is about, then all the nonsensical issues that we make Christianity about (i.e., denominations, docrinal differences, Christian culture, saving the world…the list is endless)will fade away.
He is the all in all. In Him we live and move and have our being.
My comment was too long, so I posted it on GraceGround at
http://www.graceground.com/california/looking-for-jesus/what-do-churches-and-cookies-have-in-common/
You’ve gotta see the images I found for the post, especially the second one. Be sure to follow the link at the recipe. Try the original recipe. Remember, No Substitutions. You might end up with an unpalatable mess.
I am headed over there now!
Jeremy:
Good stuff.
Esther has hit on one of the two major issues as I see them; Christianity is not a religion and what the world has had enough of and is now looking elsewhere for answers is the institutional church, not Christianity. You share Jesus, people listen.
And as far as love goes, so few of us really love another as we should despite the command to do so. The greatest pain that I have ever experienced is at the hand of fellow believers in an institutional church.
So the question then becomes if we cannot love another, how can we love those outside of Christ? I mean real love too, not just talk.
There is a lot of talk about love in these posts and that is awesome, alot about Jesus too. More than I have heard the last time I attended an instiutional church.
Mike
Keep following Jesus, Mike. The institutional church is following itself, and that’s why it’s going in circles. Keep looking for entrance to the promised land.
Thanks Mike.
That goes back to Jeremy;s questions, the first is that the “church” has always had the answers the world has been seeking, however the religion of Christianity ie the institutional church has not. When we meet someone outside Jesus it must be as the “church” and not as a religionist or a professional Christian. Do we love the person we are witnessing to? Do we care that they smoke or drink or have a lifestyle that is nauseating? Can we love them as they are with the hope that they come to see Jesus as we see Him?
The “church” does not need to change its message as long as it is Jesus, as it was with the early church. If we preach anything else, anyone else, then we are wasting our time and theirs. The religion of Christianity and the institutional church preach so many things, Jesus among them.
John wrote that belief alone was sufficient to save and he referenced belief over 100 times by my count as the differences between eternal life and eternal torment. When is the last time you have heard the gospel presented as “Believe and be saved?”
Mike
Mike,
I would also add the decline of Christianity is directly a result from three pervasive doctrines in almost every denomination, whether it is in their 501c required “Statement of Faith” or not, and that is:
1) that God is in control of EVERYTHING, even rapists and child molesters. 2) the doctrine of Hell. In the first 5 centuries of the early church there were 6 recognized theological schools. Only one, in Carthage, Africa by the Romans, taught about a everlasting hell for those who didn’t “believe.” and 3) that the Bible is the Word of God. If the Bible IS the Word, which we know from the first few verses of John, that Jesus is the Word, than the Bible becomes our God. Wouldn’t that be idolatry?
Where is their GOOD NEWS in these doctrines? I think finally people that are leaving the church and those still not willing to join are fed up with church doctrine that is not biblically sound and that doesn’t line up with God’s nature of unconditional Love.
Leaving the church will do people no good unless they go to Jesus in its place. This is what the Bible calls the kingdom of God. It means having God in charge of your life through our having a moment-by-moment consciousness of His loving presence.
Thus we give up going to church some of the time to be with Jesus all of the time. Yes, there are problems with church, but that’s not why you leave it. You leave it because the will of God is the kingdom of God and church is keeping you from that.
Live for Jesus and live in Jesus – that’s what matters.
Wow that got everyone stirred up. Did you know we have a Stir Up Sunday which is normally the last Sunday before Advent at the end of November. The symbolism of the Christmas pudding is used to illustrate that God is the stirrer, we are the pudding.
One person said we should not leave the Church, I would use the word abandon, because that what it really is, just as a person might abandon a child because they are fed up with it.
We believers are put in a Church to help it grow. The gifts of the Spirit are given to us to use for the Church’s growth not for our own personal benefit that we can show off how spiritual we are.
We are in the between times of the Resurrection and the Ascension when our Lord showed Himself not only to be alive and well but that He had a different kind of body, the kind we will have when we are brought back to life, not like Lazarus who eventually died, but one that lives forever.
After His ascension Jesus sent Gods Spirit to empower and give us the gifts to grow His Church, not our Church, His. You have all been putting your ideas forward as to how The Father wanted His Sons Church to look like. It needs to reflect Him not us. You have all said in various ways how it is and how it should be. I will also be so bold to say and how it Shall be.
We stay in the Church so God in His infinite wisdom can use us to make it the way He wants, not the way we want. Yes it’s uncomfortable, unbearable, frustrating etc but thats how Jesus must have felt and still feels.
He never gives up on us, so lets not give up on Him, God not only builds He also destroys but never to the uttermost. Yes Churches will die and their buildings converted into mosques, apartments, rock climbing venues and the like, but He will rebuild elsewhere.
I have just rejoined the PCC in our local C of E Church. I hate the politics and the unloving attitudes in it, but I know God wants me to stay and persevere and be His representative there. Lots of wrong attitudes annoy me, but I am told to love unconditionally. I can’t do it in my own strength but I know I can in His. God, help me to love more.
In His love Clive
Just to say. I feel Church buildings have to become Center’s of Community, to establish God at the center. The buildings should contain facilities for the communities use, for young and old for rich or poor for the healthy and the sick. Where health professionals are at hand for all where the ethos is unconditional love within all the services and facilities and should be unashamedly Christian.
I believe that is Church. In His love Clive.
Clive,
Would that every building became as you describe.
That’s the superiority of the kingdom of God over church. Church takes some buildings and makes them into such places, but through the kingdom of God we can acknowledge His presence in every single building and through faithful witness to His presence begin the redemption of every single building.
I have really gotten a lot from the comments. In my opinion what is wrong with the western church is that it has failed to stay centered on its purpose, that being to edify the believer. 1 John is one of my favorite books of the Bible because it is so practical. It speaks of abiding in Christ, having uninterrupted fellowship with Him in our day to day life. It also speaks of love for the brethern, even to the point of death – yet the western christian church is so caught up with building its own clone organizations that we have lost the caring/love aspect of out faith. James teaches us the same thing, how can we be profitable as believers if we do not look to the needs of others. The churches in Africa and Asia are growing because they are a real fellowship of believers who depend on one another and love one another. The western church needs to ditch the programs and get back to what “church” really is.
I haven’t read through all the comments so forgive me if I repeat something someone else already said but here are some changes that I have been thinking the church should make (when I use the word you or your I am talking about the church as a whole and not just individual Christians):
(1)Stop giving answers and teach people how to ask good questions.
(2)Stop acting like a belief is a fact and don’t shy away from discussing interpretations of scripture that are different than yours.
(3)Always be open to the idea of changing your mind about something by being humble about your beliefs and even about traditions.
(4)Stop trying to make others abide by what you believe by making laws about it. Put your energy into what you are “for” more than what you are “against”. Respect the right of others to believe differently than you do on issues that are not oppressive or abusive to people.
(5)Get honest about the conflict of interest that is involved with having full time ministers. Move towards creating faith communities that do have full time ministers.
(6)Have people discover what the bible has to say in community rather than by someone telling them what it says and like someone else said “stop idolizing the bible”
(7)Stop making the weekly worship gathering the main part of church – this may mean not having large gatherings every week. Instead have small groups meeting in homes on a weekly schedule and only have large gatherings two to four times a year.
(8)Stop promoting patriarchy in any and all forms.
(9)Don’t make conversion a goal just build healthy loving relationships with people. Becoming friends with someone in order to convert them to Christianity is insulting to people. Real loving relationships won’t have that kind of agenda attached to them.
(10)In the U.S. Christians and the Church have a lot of power and position and yet often paint themselves as victims. Stop doing that.
As I think about #4 in my list I realize it isn’t as simple as I make it sound but I do think this is something that has gone wrong and we need to be careful that the laws we try to promote aren’t just in our best interests and we need to consider how a law might infringe upon someone else and proceed very cautiously as we have a mandate to consider other people’s interests more important than our own. I think the church as a whole and Christians have become very self centered and therefore, defensive about protecting their rights, to the point they often miss the point that should be obvious.
In decline? I will take that on from a personal standpoint. As an American citizen I don’t feel challenged as a Christian. It’s just too easy to get by in the US. Serving was so much easier when I was in turmoil. The bible even says this. “Pray for the rich in there circumstances.” I truly believe this.
I prey for a blessed life. Which I guess means an “easy,” life. I don’t want heartache and strife. But I want what they instill in us. (Perseverance, patients, etc) Christianity all seems very individualistic also. So personal. How can others really know my struggle or me theirs?
That’s where I get frustrated. There was a time where I understood others more. Or didI I?Was I just more convicted in my views so I just went forward as a believer and thrust my beliefs on others without thinking about it as much as I do now. Which makes me think I have declined as a Christian.
So it makes me think Christianity as a whole has declined. Is it subject to relativism?
For me this is an everyday process. having so many thoughts on my own Christianity and what to do with it. I haven’t lost my faith at all. But I have lost my conviction and my backbone. I still believe. I just don’t think I make a difference.
I think I understand that God is in control and weather I do anything one way or the other. Ultimately his will be done.
Is that decline?
This is a stream of consciousness and probably not good writing. But it’s cathartic and hopefully somebody out there can give me some clear thought.
Thanks for your website. It has helped me a lot.
Thanks for the comment, Mike! I think that a form of Christianity is in decline, specifically, the institutional version, which in the minds of most people is the only version that exists. But the organic version of Christianity is alive and well and growing in leaps and bounds every day. It is behind the scenes, often hidden, and is moving forward in the love of Jesus.