A Story
I was at the park over the weekend with my three daughters and we were playing on the swings. I noticed a man watching us play, and after a while, he came up to me and said, “It sure is obvious your girls love you.”
Thinking it was an odd thing for a stranger to say, I cautiously replied, “Thanks?”
He continued, “Aside from giving them fun things to do here at the park, I bet in this economy, you work hard to give them food, clothes, and a roof over their heads.”
“Yep.” Now I was getting suspicious. “I try to provide for them the best I can.”
“Well, it’s obvious it is working. They adore you…”
I was starting to get a little upset. “I don’t give them that stuff to earn their love, but because I already love them. What are you trying to say?”
“Well, I’m just saying that I bet the only reason they love you is because you have provided so much for them. I bet they wouldn’t love you as much if you took some of that stuff away,” he said in a rather haughty tone. “I dare you to take some of that good stuff away and see if they still love you.”
Now I understood. And I was actually somewhat intrigued by the idea.”Okay,” I said. “Let’s try it. First, I’m going to not give them dinner tonight, and then tomorrow, when they wake up, all their clothes will be gone. When they come downstairs to ask my wife for clothes and food, we will be gone. When they come outside to see if we are working in the yard, I will have the house rigged so it burns to the ground. I’ll have some food sitting out there, but I’ll put something in so that when they eat it, they will get very, very sick. Then, I’ll send some neighbors over to tell them that their mommy and daddy did all this to them because they did something bad and we are angry with them. I am so sure they love me, that even through all this, I bet they will continue to love me.”
“I bet they won’t,” he retorted.
“We’ll just have to see then, won’t we?”
Job Problems
Clearly, this story is fictional. I made it up, so don’t turn me in to CPS. Any parent who agrees to do these sorts of things to their children should have their children taken away from them. It’s monstrous, and it made me cringe just to write it. I cannot imagine doing anything so cruel to my three girls.
Which brings me to my Job problems. No, it is not problems with my job, but problems with the premise of the Book of Job in the Bible. Have you ever read the opening chapters of the Book of Job? The opening chapters have God and Satan deciding to test Job’s love for God by taking away everything Job loves and all he owns, and then have Job’s friends come and tell Job it is because God is punishing him.
I’m not surprised that Satan suggests such a scheme. What surprises me is that God so readily agrees to it! And furthermore, God never tells Job why all this bad stuff happened to him. Job never finds out about this divine wager! God never tells Job that he was a pawn in a cosmic game of “chicken.” At the end of the book, when Job finally gets to ask God “Why?” God basically says, “I’m God and you’re not, so don’t question me.”
I understand that sometimes parents have to tell their children “Because I said so, that’s why!” or “Because I’m the parent!” but such answers are not adequate explanations when the parent is abusing the child.
People say, “Yeah, but God gave it all back!” But would any court in the country allow me to keep my daughters if I treated them as described above, and then at the end of it all, say, “Just kidding! Here’s more clothes and food and a bigger house! Now let’s get back to being a happy family!” I don’t think so.
I am not trying to be irreverent or blasphemous, but I just have problems with how God treats Job. What am I not seeing? What am I not understanding?
(I am working on a possible solution to this Job Problem, which I will post later, but I want to see what you come up with first.)
well, I never understood Job before and when you put the story in those words (which are completely accurate) it completely baffles me!!
When Jesus was led into the wilderness, it was not to see if satan could tempt Him but rather to show us that Jesus could NOT be tempted. I believe that is the way God shows us with Job, that satan could not break the love that Job has for God. God knew Job well. Sometimes God permits us to suffer so others might learn of the love we have for him and that no matter the earthly outcome in our lives He still loves us. Look at what the example of Job has done for us. It has taught us that satan doesn’t have the power to destroy our love towards God and that He will always bless us but most important that at the end of this earthly journey, WE WIN! Same as Job.
I wish I could answer. I can only suggest that perhaps the book of Job is as much a fictional story as yours is. You have put in clear markers that your story is fiction. Are there similar markers in Job? There are perhaps subtle ones like the stylised round numbers of sons, daughters, animals etc. The original readers might have realised that there was no such place as the land of Uz. And there might be clues in the precise Hebrew form of the introduction, different from that of more historical narrative books. Perhaps the book starts with the Hebrew equivalent of “Once upon a time”. So maybe we should not understand the events in it as something which God actually did.
Sometimes God permits us to suffer so others might learn of the love we have for him …
It’s a parable, you dorks. You will suffer now, but if you love God through it all then you will be rewarded at the end. To follow it all the way, though, one would have to accept the idea that God didn’t permit Job to suffer, but intentionally and purposefully caused Job’s suffering and, through extension of the metaphor, causes us to suffer, as well, in return for our heavenly reward (should we continue to love him).
It’s a great and very believable portrayal of the jealous, demanding Hebrew God of the OT. I can’t understand why Christians still seek meaning in it or even acknowledge it, though. The God in Job is an asshole, every bit as big an asshole as Satan. Just as Jeremy illustrates, He’s no more deserving of love than an abusive parent.
I have always believed that God tests those whom He has made capable of handling the situation in His power (I could be dead wrong in this, but…). By that I mean perhaps Job was of such strong faith and wisdom that God felt he would be able to deal with this situation. I do not believe God gives everyone the same tests and circumstances. I see the story more as an example of God seeking to show “all” that He understands things we do not. I have many times had trouble with the statement in scripture- “God is the potter and I am the clay”. In my most fearful and anxious moments I have had a hard time accepting this premise. I get angry that I don’t know more and that I have to seemingly be patient and look to him when I want mental solace. I don’t know how some people deal with what they have been given to deal with and then I have had others who have told me they don’t grasp how I have been able to handle my issues. Its so individual and obviously God has the picture in completeness that we don’t. I don’t know if any of that helps? Its a great mystery to me about many things God allows and why its not the way I would like to see it? Of course if it was the way I wanted to see it-well thats a scary thought.
Hi all,
Thanks for all the thoughtful and helpful comments. Personally, I believe the events described in the book of Job really did happen in history, probably before Abram was ever born.
But whether the events really happened, or whether the book is just a parable, the questions about God’s actions in the book remain the same. If the story is just fiction, what is God (or the author of the book) trying to tell us about God and humanity?
I need to find an Orthodox Rabbi…
There is nothing in Job that would even hint that it was/is not a true story.
It was one of the first if not the first book written in the Bible.
All the rest of the Bible explains the story of Job.
Does God test believers? Yes!
Does God test believers all the same way? No!
Some believers are tested more/less than others and rewarded accordingly.
Who calls the shots on testing? Not us.
Some say, “God can’t do that”.
They want to put God in their little box.
Fact is, God can do anything He wants to do, any time He wants to do it.
Oh Ya, and He can make it all turn out the way He wants it to.
If you don’t like the way God runs HIS world go find your own. Ouch 🙂 Just kidding!
To find the answer to Job you have to read the rest of the books through and through.
The complete answer this there.
By the way if haven’t read the whole story Genesis to Revelation, all of it, don’t try to give some little pat answer that you thought up.
Because one will never answer the Job problem. Until one solves his/her own problem with God.
Ok, let’s go with the premise that Job is actual history.
If you are ok with a God that intentionally inflicts suffering on a devout and loving follower just to prove a point, so be it, the argument is over.
If you aren’t ok with such a God, then:
Even if one chooses to define Job’s torments as “God tests those whom He has made capable of handling the situation,” as Mark states, does that make them any more just? Is it right to intentionally cause another harm for reasons that the harmed will never understand or comprehend and, indeed, that are incapable of being understood?
This is different than “punishment”. I can punish a child for reasons he does not understand, but if the reasons are just, he will eventually. In the OT, non-believers were understandably punished. The Hebrews strayed and were punished accordingly, and there were clear and understandable reasons within the context for that suffering, enslavement, etc. Not Job. Perhaps Job will understand after he dies and goes to heaven, but he won’t get to heaven until the Messiah shows up. Is it ok to abuse your child for reasons that he won’t know or understand for 1000 years?
Let’s go back to “testing” Job. Another possibility for suffering, either allowed or inflicted, is to prepare one for some future difficulty. Whatever does not kill me makes me stronger. I would accept this as justification for Job’s suffering. However, we are not told that Job is to be presented with and such situation. Since that would be pivotal to the story and message, we can assume that this was not the case.
I’m not putting God in a box. True, flo, “Fact is, God can do anything He wants to do, any time He wants to do it.” God, though jealous and strict, is also supposed to be kind and loving. His treatment of Job does not point to that. His treatment of Job is actually very prideful. So now we also have a situation of “Do as I say, not as I do” in addition to wanton cruelty.
To argue that God’s reasons are incomprehensible and we shouldn’t try to understand them, that “God has the picture in completeness that we don’t” and “He can make it all turn out the way He wants it to” is just circular logic. Even simply accepting these points on faith, the question remains: What modern person would choose to worship a god who would do such things?
If we take it as a fiction, however, it’s very easy to understand. Why do bad things happen to good people? We’re not really sure, but God probably knows, so don’t worry about it.
The Hebrews needed an explanation and it was given to them. It was no conflict at all for the Hebrews that God was capable of inflicting torment. They were already very familiar with that concept.
Taken as a parable, the message is still quite clear: Sometimes good people suffer and one must have faith that God has it under control.
Occam’s razor, guys. Even when dealing with faith, wouldn’t the simplest, most reasonable solution be true?
Sorry for any grammar gliches I was in a hurry.
This is what I believe without a doubt.
The Story of Job is a true and reliable fact.
There is no other way to look at it. You have to read it as a true historical fact. That’s the way it reads.
I may or may not be able to understand or answer every question that it bring to the table. But that does not change the fact that it is factual.
Some one trying to make it fictional because they can’t understand it.
And because it doesn’t fit into their little god box. It doesn’t work that way.
Job is a true story. I’ll keep saying it.
Test, could be one of the answers it may not be, the answer, or the whole story. But it is part of the answer.
I am sure that there are a multiplicity reason why God is allowing Satan to test Job. The whole unseen world is watching this battle.
Most of us don’t even know what is going on at the bottom of the ocean and here we are trying to climb up into the throne room of God and say, “God you can’t do that”. It doesn’t fit my understand of the kind of God I want to believe in.
Know doubt “devout and loving” Job had something to learn.(as we all do) Read the end of the book, bullet.
Job had some lessons to learn from the creator.
Bullet, God is always just. Even if we can’t understand what He is doing.
Some one wrote “Is it right to intentionally cause another harm for reasons that the harmed will never understand or comprehend and, indeed, that are incapable of being understood?”
I say yes. When God does it, it is with out a doubt.
God doesn’t, “abuse”, God does Punish, teach, test, discipline,Judge etc.
But abuse? NOT!
Bullet, God is loving and kind. Some times love and kindness have to take some serious measures. Yes, sometimes people will die. Read Joshua at Ai with Achan’s family. That’s some serious lessons going on there.
Job was devout, blameless etc, but not perfect.
If you want to say God is Prideful go ahead. God is perfect so His pride will always be perfect. God can be “prideful” because it would always be right. However that would not be the case for us. Remember pride is a SIN. So I doubt very seriously that God is prideful the way the Bible explains pride, bullet.
It is only cruelty because one can not understand totally God’s ways. We have limit information. We do not have all the facts. So at times we may not completely understand the actions of God. Later in our lives as we grow in faith we may understand why things went the way they did in a given situation.
I’ll say it again. The answer to the Job is in the whole Bible not just a few verses.
The fact is, one can understand God and what he is doing. But one has to read it all Genesis to Revelation. I believe God does not give the answers to life on a platter we have to go get the answers. IN HIS WORD primarily.
But also through life that comes at us. People that come our way, etc. God teaches us and give us answer to life as we learn. We don’t get it all at once.
There is nothing fictional about this story it is the real deal.
Lets face it. Bad things do happen to good people and Bad people get good things going their way. The ‘rain falls on the just and the unjust”.
Hey! God is doing His thing all around the world. Some time you have to set the big questions aside for a while what ever those questions might be. Then trust God and keep moving ahead. The answers will come in His time.
The story of Job is a little bleep in the big story. Was God’s love and kindness at work in this story of course it was. I’ll tell you this, there was a whole lot more going on in Job’s family then we realize. We do not have a
clue of all that was happening in Job family and friends. Look at the words of wisdom from his wife. Now there is a part of the story I would like to know about. The story of Job could go on and on.
I’m not saying Job’s story isn’t important in our understanding of God and His works. God put it in the Bible for use to learn from.
It is not some fictional story. It is a real God dealing with real people in real past history. And it is still going on today folks. So hang in there.
“Read the end of the book, bullet.”
I have, flo, and I did, again. I still don’t see your point.
This is what I get from it: “I am God and I can do all these wonderful and terrible things, so who are you to question me?”
That would be a fine explanation if we didn’t already know the beginning of the story. See, Job doesn’t know why this has happened, but we do. It was for a BET! If the story did not include the bet with Satan, then there would be no problem with it. Bad things happen to good people and if you have faith and love God everything will work out in the end. Including the bet changes the tone of the story from, “Sometimes bad things happen and you won’t understand, but God does,” to “God can kick your ass for no reason, so shut up and take it.”
Like I said, if God had to test Job to some other end or if He had to cause Job injury for some greater good that couldn’t be understood, the story would be different. However, we do know and understand why He did it – just to prove that he could.
“Was God’s love and kindness at work in this story of course it was.”
What could possibly lead you to that conclusion? Just because it’s God so it must be?
From King James: Job 42:11 and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him:
The evil that the Lord brought upon him. How could the Lord’s actions be construed as evil? But it’s right there. Love and kindness don’t go with evil.
“Bullet, God is always just. Even if we can’t understand what He is doing.”
“When God does it, it is [right] with out a doubt.”
I find that kind of blind, unquestioning faith a disservice not only to man but to whatever god one worships. To not understand is one thing. To not seek understanding is quite another. And nothing in any of your arguments leads me to believe that you are trying to find or understand any lesson in Job but “Because I said so”.
“Know doubt “devout and loving” Job had something to learn.”
“I’ll tell you this, there was a whole lot more going on in Job’s family then we realize.”
So what? It’s not in the story so it doesn’t matter. If it was important, it would be in their. Unless there’s a director’s cut of the Book of Job out there somewhere, what you see is what you get. There is no meaning to be had by guessing at motivations and circumstances here. They are all laid bare to see.
In conclusion:
If Job is true, then God can be evil and can do anything He wants it for any reason that He wants, good, bad or indifferent. If Job is true, then life has no meaning or purpose but to submit. If Job is true, nothing you do matters and free will counts for nothing. If Job is true, the god described therein is a tyrant, as capricious and cruel as any the Hebrews had ever seen.
Here’s one you’ll like: If Job is true, then nothing Jesus said about God can possibly be.
However, if Job is a story, then it is simply man’s flawed illustration of a fairly simple principle.
—
This is great, Jeremy. I haven’t commented in a while, but this is a good one. I hope it’s still thought provoking and not just maddening. Honestly, either way, it’s still fun. 🙂
Hey, bullet
God wants us to trust Him by faith
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
He want us to walk by faith
2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
You can never go wrong trusting God when life comes at you with things you can not understand.
Maybe your issues go deeper the Job, bro.
later
Hi all,
Thanks for all the continued input. It is excellent, and you all are making me think. I also received several comments by email. I will try to post my “Part 2” later today.
What an interesting discussion. I’ve never heard Job described the way you have Jeremy, and it’s left me with a lot of questions too. It’s rather coincidental though that I just read a possible explanation earlier this morning from a book that I’m going to be doing a study with on my blog. So these aren’t my words, but I thought I’d add them as food for thought; they’re from the book Get Out of That Pit! by Beth Moore.
Moore addressess the Job scenario in the second chapter, where she is discussing what happens and the implications of being thrown into a pit through circumstances that are no fault of the one being thrown in. In this scenario, the blame game can cause someone to either blame themselves or blame God.
About blaming ourselves, Moore writes: “Satan is a master at using our own insecurities against us. He knows that deep in our hearts we’re so fragil and injured by life [when in a pit] that his faintest whisper will talk us into feeling guilty even when we’re not. Satan knows the hardest person for us to forgive will always be ourselves.”
About blaming God, she writes: “What do we do when we feel God is to blame for the pit we’re in? The problem with blaming Gos is that it charges Him with wrongdoing. Thankfully, “He knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.” (Psalm 103:14) In other words, He understands us and takes into account our limitations. We, on the other hand, are totally incapable of understanding His ways at times. Yet in His tender mercy, God lets us ask the same nagging question that Abraham posed: “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Maybe we ask it using different words, such as : “Can we really be sure that God always has our best interests at heart?” Or maybe we just say it silently, letting our distancing hearts speak for themselves. If we’re willing to stay close enough and watch long enough, we will discover that the answer to the question is imphatically YES. The Judge of all the earth will do right. He is complete perfection. All wise. Only good. Satan has no more effective weapon in his arsenal that to make us question – not so much whether God exists, but whether God is really good. He knows God alone possesses the power and passion for us to be restored after nearly being shredded in life’s killing fields. For Satan to talk us into distrusting God and distancing ourselves from Him is to keep us broken, ineffective, and frankly, out of his hair.”
“Remember Joseph? He had plenty of people to blame and was justified in doing it. But somewhere along the way, Joshep decided to not only look up but to point up. His decision to view God as entirely sovereign and ultimately responsibly was not the death of him. It was the life of him. “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lifes.” (Genesis 50:20) Take a good look at that word ‘intended.’ It comes from the same Hebrew word translated ‘think’ in Jeremiah 29:11. “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and hope.” (NKJV) God thinks of His children continually. And when God thinks of His children, He only thinks in terms of what can be used toward our good, toward His plan for us, and toward the future. His intentions can only be pure. Right. Full of hop. Promoting peace.”
Now, all these things are truths we accept unquestioningly to be true about God, but I don’t think this so far has adequately addressed the questions you’ve brought up Jeremy. How does this explain the seeming contridicting acts of God in Job from the rest of His acts in the Bible? At the end of the chapter however, Moore says this: “Christ got down next to us in the grave, stayed the better part of three days, and then got up….so we’d have permission to get up too. And start living. Beloved, let this one sink in deeply: if God allowed you to be thrown into a pit, you weren’t picked on; you were picked out. God entrusted that suffering to you because He has faith in you. Live up to it. All the way up.”
Could this perhaps be the answer?
Jeremy, I pastor/friend answered the question you are answering with what was in my opinion a insightful manner. He said He does not understand why God does everything that he does, and in some cases we have to trust him, BUT that if we could talk to Job now he would be glad that he had undergone the testing and persevered for the eternal rewards that he now has though he suffered temporal loss.
By the way to Bullet I think, it was not a bet. Satan is not all knowing, and God is. He showed Satan that he understood Job and mankind better then Satan, and the only person who profited was Job.
Trent: So besides acctepting a wager, God also cheated?
Hi Bullet. I am a male. if you told me I was not a male, and I only thought I was because of my clothing and I said I am and I can prove it to you by letting you come down and meet me, how does that make it a wager, and how did I cheat? It was your choice to doubt me.
Trent:
The way you put it, Satan is not all knowing, and God is, makes it not only cheating but one of the best cons in existence. God has foreknowledge of the entire event. He already knows what will happen. If Satan had simply walked up and said, “See that guy over there? I bet I can make him hate you,” then there would be no con. It’s God, however, who initiates the conversation.
G: Hey, whatcha been up to?
S: Just hanging out.
G: Hey, see that guy over there? He loves me so much and hates you.
S: Duh. You give him everything. Take it away and see how much he loves you.
G: No. You do it.
It’s a total set-up.
Now:He showed Satan that he understood Job and mankind better then Satan, and the only person who profited was Job.
Look at 1:6 and 2:1. “The sons of God came to present themselves to the Lord…”
This wasn’t just a random occasion. This was a meeting. The payoff of the wager is in making Satan look foolish in front of the others.
God sets up the situation. He challenges Satan. He appears to give Satan total control. That’s the important part of the con – making the mark think he’s holding all the cards. Then He makes Satan look like an ass if front of all their friends. All of this is possible because God already knows what’s going to happen.
Even if He hadn’t known, He’s built Himself an out by making Satan the bad guy. If Job does let Him down, not His fault. Satan did it, not Him. This last part is a bit weak but I like the idea of it.
Give me a little while, but I’m sure I can also show you how your example isn’t comparable. It begins with the loser making the challenge, for one thing. There’s more, I just need to figure out the logic of it.
———–
Jeremy:
I know you’ve already written part of your solution or whatever it’s supposed to be, but I haven’t read it yet. I wanted to make that clear before I said the following, just in case our ideas intersect. It could happen!
I’m glad this question and discussion has come up. After having to examine Job more thoroughly and create arguments about his situation, I think I have discovered that the we have all been approaching this from the totally wrong angle. The Book of Job is not about God and Satan or God and Job or whether God is just or cruel. It would surprise me if this hasn’t been mentioned somewhere, but I’ve always heard the story discussed from the selfish human viewpoint. It’s not about bad things happening to us.
I’ll save the rest until after I read Jeremy’s ideas.
Bullet, I think you are assuming that Job says it all and that you understand the big picture. You do not know what Satan was thinking or saying prior to that. You are putting things in a framework that allows you to have the conclusions you want to find. You also act as if God needs to look cool in front of his creation. He does not appear to let Satan have control, because he already stated a fact. Satan was the foolish one to argue. (And I admit, I have a framework I have it put in as well that is based on the God’s attributes shown in the rest of the Bible)
Another thing that keeps getting ignored is the payoff. If in our terms, Job is now an emperor or has received some other type of eternal rewards for suffering temporally, and he is pleased with the result, who are we to say not fair? It is Jobs place to plead the unjustness of the case, not ours, and he has a much better picture of it.
The new testament teaches to rejoice when we undergo trials for the reward set before us. Do we? not usually, but that does not mean that when we get them, we will not look back from eternity and shake our heads and how glad we were to have perservered through the ones we did persevere through, and may even with that we had more. The new testament also says we will not be tested more then we can stand, and apparently God know Job.
Regardless of your or my political leanings, Obama is a good example of this. (I use him because he won. Palin underwent a lot of flack too) He underwent many things that were unfair, and yet if you ask him if it was worth it, I would expect him to say yes. How much more would Job say the same?
Thanks for your discussion bullet.
Trent
You might be interested in this online commentary “Putting God on Trial: The Biblical Book of Job” (http://www.bookofjob.org) as supplementary or background material for your study of the Book of Job. It is not a sin to question God, to demand answers from God. There is a time and a place for such things. It is written by a Canadian criminal defense lawyer, now a Crown prosecutor, and it explores the legal and moral dynamics of the Book of Job with particular emphasis on the distinction between causal responsibility and moral blameworthiness embedded in Job’s Oath of Innocence. It is highly praised by Job scholars (Clines, Janzen, Habel) and the Review of Biblical Literature, all of whose reviews are on the website. It is also taught in 262 US high schools in 40 states through Chapter 17 in The Bible and Its Influence. The author is an evangelical Christian, denominationally Anglican. He is also the Canadian Director for the Mortimer J. Adler Centre for the Study of the Great Ideas, a Chicago-based think tank.