Maybe it’s just me, but I seem to be running into more and more ignorant Christians who seem to think that the best way to learn theology is to not study it. When challenged on any of their theological beliefs, their only real defense is, “God revealed it to me.”
Here is how these discussions often go:
Ignorant Christian: I disagree with what you taught from the Bible today. You are wrong about _____.
Me: Well, I make no claim to infallibility. It is possible I am wrong. Why do you think so?
Ingorant Christian: Because you obviously haven’t read the Bible. If you had, you would know about Passage X, Y, and Z, which say this: (They then proceed to quote several verses to me from the Bible. I call this Shotgun hermeneutics.)
Me: I am actually quite familiar with those texts, and have studied them extensively. I just simply understand them in a different way than you do.
Ignorant Christian: Well, your way is wrong.
Me: Again, that is possible. Besides, I forgot that you are smarter than I am, and have more education than I do.
Ignorant Christian: Oh, you’re mocking me now? I may not have gone to Bible college or Seminary, but I know the Bible just as good as you do. In fact, it is at Bible college and Seminary that you learned all your heresies.
Me: Undoubtedly so. But tell me, where did you get your learning from? What books have you read? What teachers do you listen to? How did you gain the Bible knoweldge you have?
Ignorant Christian: I learned it all on my own. I don’t read any books except the Bible and don’t listen to any teachers except the Holy Spirit. Jesus has taught me everything I know about the Bible.
Me: Wow, I wish I was that spiritual… So have you ever been wrong in anything you believed?
Ignorant Christian: No, God wouldn’t teach me lies. Everything I learn from God is 100% accurate.
Me: …So you’ve never been wrong about anything?
Ignorant Christian: Of course I have! Just nothing God taught me. If I am wrong about something, I trust that God will teach me the truth as I study Scripture, pray, and listen to the instruction of the Holy Spirit. I don’t need human teachers or human books to teach me the truth.
Me: I see… So why are you correcting me again?
Ignorant Christian: Because you’re wrong.
Me: But you’re human, right?
Ignorant Christian: Of course. What are you saying?
Me: Well, you just said that everything you believe you learned from God through the study of Scripture and the instruction of the Holy Spirit, and that you don’t listen to human teachers or read human books, and yet here you are, a human, trying to instruct and correct me… It seems that if you really believed what you say, you would trust God to teach and correct me the way He teaches and corrects you.
Ignorant Christian: But you don’t believe God does that.
Me: I didn’t say that… I guess I’m just confused. You don’t want human teachers to teach and correct you, but you, as a human, want to teach and correct others?
Ignorant Christian: Because God has taught the truth to me, He has called me to teach that truth to others. And as you were teaching, He revealed to me that I was supposed to correct you.
Me: Well, thank you for being God’s mouthpiece. Please, next time you talk to God, tell Him that I am open to His instruction and correction, and that anytime He wants to correct my theology, He can come speak to me the same way He speaks to you.
Ignorant Christian: You can’t order God around like that! GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED! DON’T YOU KNOW THAT THE UNRIGHTEOUS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD?!
Me: Ok, this conversation is over. Thank you for voicing your concerns with my ideas. Good bye.
Ignorant Christian: I WILL PRAY FOR YOUR ETERNAL SOUL!
Not all conversations go exactly like that, but that tends to be the genearal direction. My favorite part of these conversations is always that “I only the need the Bible, but you need to listen to me” argument. It is shocking to me how many people I encounter who have that sort of mindset.
Any of you have similar conversations? Maybe you have interactions online with people like this? Share below!
I’ve had a number of those kinds of debates; and I can definitely relate.
They’re fun, aren’t they?
My problem is that they are TOO much fun. I love to really take apart the other person’s argument bit by bit, back them into a corner and then deliver the finishing blows. But the fact that they are people, and brothers and sisters in Christ (even if they don’t necessarily see me that way) puts a damper on things.
Yeah, I hear what you are saying. I get too frustrated sometimes with the conversations though. It is difficult to keep these sorts of conversations on a logical thought-flow.
My attempts at logic are usually dismissed as ‘human reasoning.’ And I have to confess: it usually is human reasoning, since… I am human, and I am reasoning. I guess they are either not human or not reasoning.
It is all very confusing and unfortunate.
Pretty similar. Except when they pull the “Holy Spirit told me,” card, I pull it right back: “And the Holy Spirit told me. But you know, we’re supposed to test spirits, so I did: I double-checked with these scholars. Whom did you go to for confirmation?”
Invariably, no one specific. “Other people say” is the best they can come up with. So I tell them to find a specific individual and get back to me. They never do.
Yep, confirmation is Christianese for references.
I love the “Holy Spirit” card! I love how you handle it. Ha! Not only the Spirit card, but the “test the spirits” card. Wow!
You’re funny Jeremy! Obviously we talk to the same people. I ask them “I know someone who also tells me that God/the Holy Spirit tells them what the Bible the Bible means, but He told them something much different than what you say He told you. How do you explain that?” Their usual response is along the lines of “Well obviously God didn’t tell them what they heard. It must have been Satan.” The source of anything that disagrees with their opinion has to be Satan.
I also love “The Bible says in plain English”, and I point out that the Bible wasn’t written in English, so how do they know that the intent of the writer of the passage, which was written thousands of years ago, in another culture, in another language, comes through in English. The God card again – “God saw to it that His Word would be infallible”.
“Then you believe all translations are inspired?” (This is where some of the sharper folks realize they’re getting in over their heads.) “I thought that conservative Christian scholars believed that only the original writings were inspired.”
In a country where the average household has several copies of the Bible, it is very condescending to quote long passages of the Bible (and a very good way to insure that you lose the person on the other end of the conversation), when a reference would do. If necessary, the writer or speaker might refer to a word, phrase or line, but long quotes, especially those in all caps is the equivalent of screaming Bible verses at people.
Ha! Yes, I just had a discussion with someone about that “The Bible plainly says” argument. I didn’t think to use the Greek/Hebrew point.
You have lots of experience with people quoting Bible verses at you. Thanks for being loving and gentle in your responses!
Most of my friends are women, LGBT or homeless. Yes, I’ve had lots of Bible verses thrown my direction that supposedly prove the place of women, the sinfulness of LGBTs, and that homeless people should get off their rear ends and work. Like your three wise men story, I am convinced of something, but not of the point the verse thrower thinks they’re proving. 🙂
Personally I don’t even bother having interactions like these anymore. In fact, I don’t even call them conversations anymore as a conversation implies people are actually listening to each other.
But from a completely different angle and perhaps a big spanner in the works, I read an interesting view the other day relating to Paul (like in the Apostle).
The writer said that his spiritual journey made a huge turn when big questions about the NT (specifically Paul’s theology) started emerging, especially in light of the fact that Paul started his series of letters (to the Galatians) with words very similar to what many ignorant Christians (Jeremy’s term) use today: “I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preach is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ…” (1:11,12).
His view is that Paul basically gave himself free reign here at the start of his teachings to the gentiles (see also 1:1a: “Paulos, apostolos ouk ap anthroopoon, oude di anthroopon, alla dia Iesou Christou, kia Theou patros…”) and then started preaching his own theology heavily influenced by his own biases and preferences – not that any of the writers were ever completely exempt from it of course, but still the writer felt Paul was quite fundamentalistic at times about certain things he had some clear opinions about, e.g. about relationships and women’s position in the church etc, which he then propagated as part of the gospel.
There’s obviously more to it than the space here allows, but I did think the writer had some agreeable (and disagreeable) points and Paul’s words did sound quite familiar…Just adding a spanner Jeremy 🙂
I love your writings mate. Always makes me smile.
Gideon,
Hmm. Interesting point about Paul. You are right. I bet that a lot of Christians today get the cues from Paul on this, since he uses similar language. What book were you reading, if I might ask?
So it happens to you also! It stems from what I call, “shot-gun theology”. Take a handful of texts, usually out of context, shove them all down the barrel of a shot-gun and fire them point blank at the people. Very popular with many speakers. Happens regularly in South Africa and is often found on TBN. It’s a very convenient to make the “opposition” shut up.
Shalom
Yep! I like that “shot-gun theology” term. I use it too and think I even wrote a post on it a while back somewhere.
That was hysterical. Unfortunately, it’s about impossible to gain any ground with someone like that.
You are absolutely right.
In light of the season, I will share an experience I had several years ago while pastoring in the civilian sector (in other words, prior to becoming an Army Chaplain). It was during Advent that I mentioned scholars have proven Jesus Christ was not actually born on December 25th. I went on to say that there is no Scriptural proof there were only 3 wisemen; however, regardless how many there were, they did not arrive on the actual day Jesus was born. An older gentleman approached me immediately following the service in order to reprimand me for preaching such heresy. He stated I clearly went against what “Scripture states so plainly!” I responded there is no such Scriptural teaching, further what Scripture does say is that when the wisemen from the East arrived at the house where the child (not infant) was staying… He would not hear of it, exclaiming “all of the Christmas plays over the years have been wrong?” “Yes,” I replied, “sadly they were.” Knowing there were other parishioners wanting to speak to me, I challenged him to search the Scripture and rather than taking my word (or not), see what he discovered. The following Wednesday night at Bible Study, he informed me he found no proof for anything I said the previous Sunday, and lacking such evidence, I should not preach anything Scripture does not say. The following Sunday, his lecture continued. I asked him what his study of Scripture had revealed. He replied he did not have to study the Scripture because he already knew what it does, and does not say! I told him that until he was willing to at least read the Gospel accounts of the Nativity, we would simply have to agree to disagree. For years afterward he would send me a Christmas card with a picture of three wisemen standing in the stable on the cover, and he always signed it saying he was praying for me to see the light!
Ha ha! Wow. Just wow.
I am surprised that the Christmas card pictures did not convince you of the error of your ways!
Oh my. Sometimes, all we can do is laugh and smile and shake our heads, and then move on to something more beneficial to the Kingdom of God.
I am an atheist, but am fascinated with all world religion and visit many churches. I have even visited an evangelical college. At some point I got the impression that the college’s goal was to do just what you are doing: to make ignorant Christians better informed and thus make Christianity better as opposed to growing Christianity by converting folks like myself. This may seem obvious to you, but while a conversation between you and me would be interesting and intellectual, a lone Bible reader as you describe might imagine me to be Satanic. In other worlds: I appreciate what you do so that we all may communicate better one day.
Thanks, John. Wow, an evangelical college! You are brave! Hope it wasn’t to “militaristic!”
Yes, lone ranger Christians can easily get offended and angry. I firmly believe in studying and reading Scripture in community… not just with a community of Christians, but also with Buddhists, Atheists, Muslims, and whoever wants to join. A few ground rules are usually needed to keep the peace, but such times are my favorite.
I once encountered a lady at Wal-mart who approached me since I was wearing a shirt that indicated I might be a Christian and she recognized it.
Anyway, my friend and I got talking to her for a while and proceeded to tell me that the KJV was the only book of the Bible I should read, and all the others are perversions. No biggie, I’ve heard that one before so I wasn’t too concerned.
Then she told me it’s damaging to our spiritual well being to read other books, even if written by Christians, and our only source of spiritual understanding should come from the Bible (the KJV at that).
I asked her why she felt that way, and she proceeded to recommend a book to me.
To be sure I heard her right, I asked her if she was recommending I read a book that was about why we shouldn’t read other books besides the [KJV] Bible.
She failed to see the irony of her suggestion.
Hilarious…. yes, I am sure she failed to see the irony. That’s how it goes with these people.
After reading your entire conversation, I have to say, and I am not being flippant or glib, that you have a smart one there. That is in juxtaposition to the ones that live here in Roseville and Sacramento California, where a common teaching is that Satan put fossils in the ground to confuse people about God and evolution teaches that a frog saw food in a tree and grew wings so that he could eat it. Totally serious
Ha ha ha! Oh, yeah, there are all types. Wow.
I am no longer attending any church nor do I have any urge to do so. I have been a Christian for 5 years before it was suggested that through all my speeches and helping in community projects and being a part of the city council and voicing the interests of the unheard from, that I should seek ordainment.
I thought it through and started attending some personal meetings with pastors and attended conventions and started some online classes about public speaking strategies.
Basically for 7 years I was a Christian but the process of ordainment became revealing to me that there was much more going on in the Assemblies of God and the Pentecostal denominations that was very unnerving and insidious.
Needless to say it bothered me enough to bring this to my wife’s attention. She noticed the fire was gone.
I was pounded by sermons and speeches regarding this as a big money opportunity. A business proposition of sorts, a way to make good cash flow on the side it seemed to me being new to all this.
Anyway they became more centered on “molding the mind” rather than truth. As a matter of fact it was more political than biblical. And that got my attention that something was very wrong.
Especially when exposing the council of Nicaea and what transpired then.
Many of those during conventions even told me privately that they don’t really believe anymore, and that it was about furthering political agendas, “to get many folks to think the way we think” so that we may establish a true Christian Nation with BIBLICAL LAWS.
I asked them how many of their wives were virgins on their wedding nights. They kicked me out.
I am a layman with probably just enough knowledge to be dangerous. I found this sight with the search term. “Christian Ignorance” because I am gravely concerned about this lack of understanding among the common Christian, and frustrated also as all of you are, but surely you agree there is ignorance that comes from many pulpits also, do you not? If you search wikipedia for Christian denominations, you will find there are estimated to be over 41,000. Granted, The differences between them are often small, but not always. Also, many of these denominations may have been started by people without any formal training, but not all. It is possible for everybody to be wrong, but it is not possible for everybody to be correct.
I am specifically concerned about what appears to be idolatry in the church. Christmas would qualify as that in my opinion, Everywhere that pagan holidays have been Christianized. I am also concerned that our ignorance of what we believe is a hindrance to evangelism. The common church member simply can not give answer for the hope that is within them. You laugh, but I know you all also weep with me, that people have been martyred for our faith and we have squandered it in ignorance.
I appreciated your comment, “You laugh, but I know you all also weep with me, that people have been martyred for our faith and we have squandered it in ignorance.”
Wow, Michael. Well said.
A year ago, I prayed and asked the Holy Spirit to lead me to the truth, no matter what that truth was. That day, I began reading the Bible for myself – for the 1st time. After 21 years of declaring that I was a Christian (yep! , an ignorant Christian), I promised God and myself to read the whole thing. Today, I have two and a half books left to read; the last chapters of 1 Chronicles, then 2 Chronicles, and Psalms. I also use history books and commentaries (most from earlier teachings – not the teachers of the church of what’s happening now). Research is key. I have found that nearly everything I had been taught when I was a new Christian, are lies or just accepted beliefs/traditions (“… my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge… ” Hosea 4:6). Paganism and idolatry are rampant in many churches today. So many scriptures are taken out of context, and traditions have taken precedence. I no longer attend church services, and to be honest, it hurts my heart to see so many of my fellow believers take the wide road, just to be accepted by others. Getting in “conversations”, like Jeremy mentions in this article – ugh… just the thought makes me cringe. I know I have to at least try, though. But lately, I’ve been avoiding these “opportunities”. This article is a breath of fresh air and gives me new resolve. It’s nice to know we’re not alone.
The both of you are wasting your time trying to convince each other that the point of view that you hold is “right” and the other is “wrong” when you both see things differently. This is the basis of a great deal of contention between people in this world, but what would I know I am only the gardener who does the lawns.
I used to work with a storeman who had this saying up on his wall. It is a useful philosophy, just leave the God bit out of it and understand it, and like it was helpful to me it will be helpful to you.
“God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
Courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference”.
My goodness yes!! Thank you!!
I don’t know whether to laugh or scream!!
But it’s so addicting to engage with them, though there’s always a circular argument.
[Paul] informs [Timothy] what are the true ornaments; not external marks… but soundness of doctrine and holiness of life. When he says, by speech and conversation, the meaning is the same as if he had said, “by words and actions,” and therefore by the whole life… The only way of procuring reverence is, by excellent virtues, to guard ourselves against contempt. John Calvin
What I would like to know is where does Israel come in to play with all of you Christians? Just a question.