I am certain this post will get me some worried comments about my further slide into heresy. So let me say it clearly: “I do believe God exists! I believe there is a God, as revealed to us through nature, our conscience, Jesus, and Scripture.”
Now, on with my post.
I was recently having a discussion with a friend of mine who doesn’t believe God exists. He gave me some interesting books to read, which, in the format of a novel, present “god” and “satan” as highly evolved energy-based life forms. He believes there is a “force” out there, but it is not “god.” Instead, there are only “aliens” who tweaked the evolutionary process on earth, and have been “playing” with us ever since.
So he says he doesn’t believe in “god.”
I asked him why he doesn’t believe in “god” but does believe in an advanced species of energy-based life forms.
He replied, “I just can’t believe in a god who kills innocent people, and slaughterers the Canaanites, and sends prophets and preachers who condemn gay people while secretly raping little boys and stealing money. The god we read about in the Bible tells us to obey the government no matter what, and pay our taxes so our armies can go steal the oil and wealth of other countries, and imprison innocent people. I don’t believe in a god who can create humans to live forever, but then decides to create of place of pain, suffering, and torture for billions of them to live in forever. And then in light of all this, he calls himself ‘good.’ If that is god, he sounds more like the devil.”
I think he was waiting for me to defend my belief in God. But I only looked at him, nodded my head in agreement, and said, “Yes, I don’t believe that god exists either.”
I certainly believe in God, but I don’t believe in the god my friend described. I don’t believe that kind of god exists. Also, I don’t believe that the god held forth by most of modern “Christianity” exists either. I certainly believe God exists; but not that god.
Which raises the question: Since I am certain that some of my beliefs about God are incorrect and inaccurate, does the God I believe in actually exist? How much of our view of God must be correct before we can say we are believing in the God who truly exists? (A similar question could be asked about Jesus. Lots of Christians accuse others of believing in the “wrong Jesus.” Some people believe in Jesus, but their views of Jesus are so warped from the real Jesus, that the Jesus they believe in doesn’t (or didn’t) actually exist. But none of us are 100% accurate in our beliefs about Jesus either, so does that mean we are believing in the wrong Jesus?)
What do you think about all this? Are these sorts of questions just a result of the effect of Platonic Dualism on our thinking (where all we know about God is some sort of dim reflection of reality) mixed with Hindu Brahmanism (where the most we can say about God is what he is not)? Also, what can you say or do to show a person who doesn’t believe in God that there is actually a God worth believing in? How can we show them that the God they don’t believe in is (most likely) not the God of the Bible?
I don’t believe that that god exists either. and most of Christianity has such a backwards view of who Jesus is that it is a real stretch to even call myself a Christian in the modern sense.
what books did your friend recommend to you anyway? hopefully not the same old same old Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens crap lol
are there any particular views that you are unsure on?
Hi Jeremy,
I think you answered your own question – the way to answer that person is to agree. I don’t believe in that God, either!
You said “I don’t believe that the god held forth by most of modern “Christianity” exists either.” That’s a pretty sweeping statement. Care to elaborate?
Kirk,
The books are “Waiting for the Galactic Bus” and “The Snake Oil Wars” by Parke Godwin. They are novels.
To my knowledge, there are no particular views I am unsure on. What I am certain of, however, is that there are certain beliefs I have about God which are wrong. I just don’t know (yet) which beliefs these are. If I knew, I wouldn’t believe them!
Does this mean that the God I believe in doesn’t actually exist?
David,
I am primarily thinking of the God represented by many North American Christians…not from our pulpits as much as in our prayers…that God is a Republican Who is interested in helping us win a war in Iraq, get Obama impeached, take control of Congress, all the while making sure every Christian has perfect health and lots of wealth, so that we can become a bigger church than the one down the street.
I can’t really pinpoint an aspect of theology that is wrong….but I am not sure these goals are exactly God’s goals. Therefore, somewhere, somehow, our view of God does not line up exactly with Who God really is.
So again, does this mean we are believing in a God that doesn’t really exist? Where has our theology gone wrong?
Jeremy,
Nicely done; a very N. T. Wright-esque move there.
As to whether you believe in the real God, I’m not sure what the answer is, but I have a couple thoughts I’d like to bounce off you.
I’ve been thinking lately about the difference between person and proposition, and how they relate. There’s something about personal relationship that’s not reducible to a propositional test. I don’t know how to describe it — although I’m trying — but somehow there’s a difference between calling on a false God and calling on the true God (about whom you have some misconceptions). And the difference is not just in how many false propositions you’re allowed to espouse before you’re talking about someone else.
It’s easy to see this in other personal relationships. I don’t know your wife, but just to be talking about it, let’s say that she despises mango sorbet. But somehow you’ve got it into your head that she loves the stuff. Now when this little misconception comes to light, I submit that she will respond very differently than she would if she discovered that you were in love with some other woman named Wendy who loves mango sorbet. A false belief about your wife does not amount to being in love with an imaginary woman instead of your wife.
You have a real relationship with your wife, even though you undoubtedly harbor some false beliefs about her. There is something there, somehow, that transcends propositional perfection. I suspect it has to do with incarnation, history, personal story — you know, stuff that actually happens as opposed to timeless truth in the Platonic sense. But I’m not sure how to articulate it.
Love to hear your thoughts on this.
His,
Tim
Tim,
Actually…the same week I had this conversation, I read some article by NT Wright where he did/said the same thing when he was a college chaplain. I can’t remember what the article/book was. I felt pretty good…having made nearly the same statement as NT had done…Ha ha. Not that I’m on the same level as he is…
I like your comparison with my relationship to my wife. I am constantly surprised at little I know about my wife. But as you point out, does this mean I don’t have a relationship with her? Hardly.
I guess I just wonder where the line is…of if there even is a line. Certainly, knowing God must transcend “propositional perfection” (I LOVE the way you put that!), but if it’s about incarnation and personal story, who doesn’t have something along those lines? Muslims, Mormons (etc.) all believe that stuff actually happens to them with the God they believe in, so how does that differ from my own experience with God?
Maybe I’m asking the question wrong… it’s a postmodern question after all…
Based on what you wrote, I wonder if my entire question could be rephrased this way:
1. All of us believe something about God (even if we believe he doesn’t exist).
2. Some of what we believe about God is wrong. This does NOT mean that we don’t believe in God.
3. God wants all of us to move from where we currently are in our beliefs about Him to something more accurate.
4. This happens through a a combination of propositional truth and personal story.
The primary problem with this line of thinking is that we do all believe in the same “god” after all…though imperfectly. But really, is this so bad? After all, believing in God, god, or gods, never granted eternal life to anyone….
Jeremy,
I think the “Do we believe in the same god?” question is related to the Ship of Theseus paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus).
In this case, however, it is a little easier, since God can be uniquely identified as “the supreme being”, unlike the ship.
So, technically, all monotheists (Christians, Jews, Muslims) believe in the same God. There can, after all, be only one supreme being.
The problem comes when we use “same” to include “having identical properties”. This is where we all part ways – we have different beliefs.
In this sense, we don’t believe in the “same” God.
It gets worse. When I change one of my beliefs about God, am I still believing in the “same” God? (Then again, am I the same person?)
So I think it turns on the usage of “same”.
Jeremy,
Regarding “…but if it’s all about incarnation and personal story, who doesn’t have something along those lines? Muslims, Mormons (etc.) all believe that stuff actually happens to them with the God they believe in, so how does that differ from my own experience with God?”
If you’re looking at it at a sociological or propositional level, it doesn’t. But at a personal level, there’s a key difference: again with the marriage analogy. In a newspaper column, science fiction writer Orson Scott Card once told the story of a woman who called his house and told his wife that she’d had a one-night stand with him the previous night. Mrs. Card knew where her husband had been all night — because he’d been with her — and it turns out that the caller had slept with a man who claimed to be the famous novelist in order to get her into bed.
So, both women had the subjective impression of sleeping with Orson Scott Card, and both women would affirm the same proposition: “I slept with Orson Scott Card.”
The difference is, one of them hadn’t. He only had that relationship with one of the women, and not the other — she was with an impostor.
How does it transfer to what we’re talking about?
Romans 1 tells us that everyone knows God — but they don’t like Him, and don’t want to be reminded of Him. 1 Corinthians tells us that an idol is a demon. So my best answer at this point would be that God knows when someone wants to talk to Him, and when someone wants to talk to anyone but Him. In the former case, “He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him,” and in the latter, “[He] gave them up to vile passions…” This may be in spite of the propositions a person believes. The Pharisees prayed to the God of the Bible (supposedly), but they fall into the latter category. The stories of woefully ignorant people who fall into the former category — and whose “God, if you’re out there, please make Yourself known” prayers are answered — are legion.
His,
Tim
Hum. I need to modify a sentence. I should have said, “This may be in spite of the propositions a person affirms.” The example of the Pharisees stands.
There is a church in Kansas that says that our soldiers are dead because of homosexuality in America, there is Joel Osteen with his fake idol$ $mile, there is Promi$eland TV and Trinity Broadca$ting that HAVE to make God puke, if you know what I mean. This economy will either put these charlatans out of business (and that’s what they are-businesses) or the whole of America will turn to them and it will be easy for the beast-prophet to have his way later on.
They are narcissists, led by atheists. They do not beleive in the God of the Bible and they can’t handle the truth. In their attempts to explain the Silence of God during this age, they have fed their own bellies and explained a disingenuous christianity at best, and at worst have techniqued their way into the wallets of a generous but misled public. “Blessed are those who do not see, yet believe,” Jesus said. Even the Catholics are emphasizing the miracles of relic appearances on TV in an attempt at more dollars.
I had one of those “you call yourself a Christian?” moments recently with one of my relatives because I refused to give more money. That’s what America, at least, now thinks the Bible is all about. It’s no wonder the atheists laugh at us…
Artskoe,
I am pretty sure Westboro Baptist Church is all just a publicity stunt. It’s not really even a church, it’s just some dude and his family and the head guy is a registered democrat. They just want to make it on tv to make religious people look bad. Kind of like about a month ago some video game company staged a fake “christian outrage” protest over one of the games they are making about Dante’s Inferno. I’d say there is at least some evidence to support my claim.
I don’t think Joel Osteen has a fake smile or anything, I think he just is just misguided.
TBN and Promiseland tv however, I agree. Lordship salvation television and speaking in tongues and all of that Jesus Camp kind of stuff.
Not sure what you mean by them being led by atheists though. I’d say they are misguided unbelievers rather than actual atheists.
Your last statement (you call yourself a Christian one) just shows how misguided the lordship salvation community is. Basically, it doesn’t even come down to works in their camps, it comes down to if you believe everything they do and do everything the same way they do it (kind of like the Republican and Democratic parties).
It’s kind of like what Jeremy said, about many “Christians” in America believing Jesus is a Republican. Lordship salvation seems more like an offshoot of the Republican party these days. Lot’s of lordship salvation people have a mindset where if you aren’t a super conservative Republican you couldn’t possibly be a “follower of Jesus”.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this? I’d like to keep the discussion going if possible till the next post.
Kirk and all,
If J Olsteen is saved then I’ll eat my Bible. Saying he and his ilk are misguided is being kind at the very least. His followers do not feel they need a savior just some altered (positive) thinking. That’s humanism at the core.
And they are all businesses that should be taxed by the IRS, selling Chinese crosses and such. They make money by giving each other jobs – I’ve been to Houston for example, and they should have NO more poor in that city…ONE church has a budget of millions and there are dozens of mega churches in the Houston area. Not ONE person from Katrina or Ike should be out in the heat or cold from New Orleans to San Antonio.
But back to the blog, the only way to present Christ is on a personal level. To many Americans, Christ has no bearing, no meaning. Praise is worshiped instead of Christ. We have American Idols singing everywhere (pun intended) on Sunday morning, hoping for a new song with which they can cut an album. Imagine being a Christian in Somalia or Sudan, where a bowl of rice means you stay alive one more day! Or your 13 year old daughter is taken from you and sold as a slave.
We are SO FAT!
I thank God I learned as a teen, Paul’s unique apostleship and the message of grace for LIFE (Titus 2:11-13), that scriptures can be wrongly divided as well as rightly (2 Timothy 2:15) and that God never, NEVER will hold me accountable for my sins, mistakes, errors, misuse of His Word, etc. Salvation AND the Christian life is only by grace through faith and nothing more. I don’t have to buy somebody’s best seller to know Him, I don’t even HAVE TO serve Him! I WANT TO!
As far as the politics…that guy in California who interviewed both candidates sure didn’t give the Republican candidate any breaks or softballs, and seemed like his agenda was to make history happen…and it did. It looks to me more like the next major candidate for president will be an independent woman…just saying…maybe just wishin’…
Anyway thanks for the info on that Kansas Babdist Church, that’s the first I’ve heard that point of view – and the info on that video game. I wonder if it’s the same money that’s funding The DaVinci Code stuff.
(Click! Turns off TV)
Amen brother.
All those people complaining about violence in the OT, contradictions in the Bible, God being unfair, and such are usually never interested in actually researching and checking what scholars (who have poured much ink) have to say. Since the “enlightenment” wetsern culture in general has already decided that there is no God. Of course, TBN-style Christianity and Jesus-the-Republican mentality is awful, as Kirk pointed out, but unbelievers have no excuse for their own anti-intellectualism. As soon as an atheist bashes the Bible, unbelievers get on board and wouldn’t even think to research the writings of reputable Christian scholars. We believers need to research so we have an answer, but what excuse does the unbeliever have for not looking into these things themselves? Seriously! Kirk help me out.
The unbelievers really don’t have an excuse. Ignorance isn’t an excuse. Being a lemming is definitely not an excuse. The problem with most people today is that they don’t use their own critical thinking skills. An atheist jumps off a bridge, and they all follow suit.
I’d say there are a few reasons that keep people from doing research on their own. One would be, they “don’t have time”. The other, which is basically just a branch of the “I don’t have time” crew, is just pure laziness. Another group would be the people who just “don’t care”. They are those people who are living in the moment, and never seem to think ahead. The rest are just so dead set in their ways that they don’t even consider the possibility that they are wrong.
There are no excuses for anti-intellectualism. I’d say anti-intellectualism is the REAL problem with all unbelievers. If they weren’t such lemmings many of them would probably become believers. However, since most people don’t truly think for themselves on this issue, and follow whatever the media figures say, it is important to figure out ways to make sure people educate themselves.
We need to come up with ideas to make people WANT to hit the books. Maybe make it more appealing to them somehow (since if they think it will be boring many will just give up before they start). If not that, maybe just give people a sense of urgency, without completely turning them off.
There is a lot to think about.
Any ideas anyone? Danny?
Gentlemen,
We are at war. Read Romans. Read Ephesians, Philippians. Put on the helmet of salvation, etc.
We don’t need to attack, the battle will come to us if we are prepared. If you are not suffering then you are not on the front lines. You may lose friends over this. Your family may shun you. “Here comes the Bible man” they will say behind your back or to your face. Good.
Prepare to battle the world, the flesh and the devil. Who is directing the feel good crowd? It’s not the Holy Spirit. Who is head of the Catholic Church? You think he’s the vicar of Christ? Oprah is gently reading “The Shack” while thousands are dying in their sins.
The fire of the American revolution started in the pulpits. You want to save this country or let it go to the dogs? Then get ready to be arrested by preaching Romans 1. In season and out of season, says Paul, and I think in season describes the times.
Draw a 3 foot circle around the cross and remain in the circle. A percentage of unbelievers will come to you in need and be ready to give an answer, and point, point, point to the cross of grace. You don’t have to know every apologetic answer – only the cross work of Christ. THAT is the shield, the armor, the sword…
You may not be popular but you will have an impact on somebody. You will drop the jaw of every money grabbing preacher from T.D. to Robt. Schu. and Marilyn and Sarah, but the enemy must be told he has no foothold here anymore.
Re-read Ephesians and Philippians with an eye toward soldier metaphors. We are no longer farmers but Minutemen. This is eternity we are fighting for. Use the Word of Truth!
Mind the circle!
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind…
I dont know what has went on in your personal life to make you turn on god but i do know one thing that God is Great. My grandpa was ate up with cancer and the doctors rate it on a scale 0-10 10 being the worst of cancer. He refused to take any of the treatments that he was offered and said when it was his time to go he would go. So my family prayed and prayed. I personally prayed for a complete miracle. After going to the doctor this morning the doctor was amazed. he said I dont know what else to say but someone has touched you. He went from it being 9.4 last time to going this time and it being a little over 0. That is God!!!!!!!! He has healed and he can and will if you believe and trust in him. I prayed every day while cleaning house,driving in the car,laying in bed at night and god heard my prayer. I hope you can find the strength that you need to be able to be amazed with the great things he can and will do!!!!! Thank You.
Amy,
Thank YOU for sharing, but as gently as I can say this, your God is too small. Healing cancer in your grandfather is wonderful. What marvelous grace for him and your family!
Somewhere, in the Sudan maybe, a young girl is being tortured and raped, and turned into a sex slave. Under Moslem law, the men who are doing this believe they are religiously justified. This woman is one of many thousands of Christians that are taken and tortured for their faith in Jesus Christ even now.
Our prayer for these Christians is that their faith remains strong in the face of being on the front lines against the devil.
You know, when Jesus walked the Earth there were not enough sick or lame. People came from all over and walked a hundred miles or more to find healing, and the Bible tells us that each and every one was healed – to the point that healing from physical infirmities became rare. In other words, the waiting room was empty. John tells us that He did so much that all the books of His deeds would fill all the libraries.
And yet Israel rejected Him as King. For all His good deeds, he was crucified. And how many of those who were healed were there to watch his death on that cruel and criminal cross? Where were those who were made whole by Him when it was time to stand by Him? Where was their faith in Him then? Even the disciples who had seen all these miracles stuttered and stammered when faith was challenged during that dark day!
And then, tragically, all the people Jesus Christ the King healed in the 1st century….died physically. It is so good for your grandpa to be a testimony for Christ the healer, and hopefully that he is pain free. But we pray even more that your grandpa is a testimony to Christ the Savior, who heals broken hearts, brings new birth and heavenly citizenship.
The record is clear that Jesus Christ the healer did so much. He restored limbs that had been lost. He brought sight to the blind, and made broken bodies with leprosy whole again, and all they had to do is t-o-u-c-h his garment, with or without belief, there are so many stories that are not recorded.
I can’t explain your grandpa’s cancer. My story isn’t as great, at least insofar as miraculous excitement. My one kidney is down to 23% function, and prognosis is dialysis. I never hear of new kidneys being grown in adults, or 23% zoom to 100% due to faith. I pray I could be the first but if that doesn’t happen I want to be the example God wants me to be for as long as I have left on the Earth. Do you understand where I coming from Amy?
I see Christians dying in plane crashes along with the unsaved. I saw a precious 26 year old perish from cancer in our church just a year ago, with so many prayers for healing it took a year of time away from our witness to God’s wonderful grace and love. The book, “Silence of God” by Sir Robert Anderson sums it thusly: “If Christ was indeed divine, no person of ordinary intelligence will question that he had power to open the eyes of the blind, the ears of the deaf, the lips of the dumb. If He had the power to forgive sins it is a small matter to believe he had the power to heal diseases.” (pg23).
Amy, you wonder at what made me “turn on God.” I thought about it but there is no event! I am as strong a believer now as I ever was. Although I am not suffering persecution, I am in pain and face much more should the Lord tarry. I think Christ wishes us to be strong in Him in what ever our circumstance in life finds us. Sort of like marriage vows, “In sickness and in health, for richer for poorer.” Me and Christ are in this together for as long as I live!
So here is maybe the hard part for you, Amy. God wants us to be a student of His Word through thick and thin. Your Grandpa is doing well, praise God, but remember the words of Paul how he “learned” to be content in all circumstances of life, and when he was in chains in a filthy cave/prison he found himself singing and bringing a testimony of God’s grace to the palace guards! He knew it was the end of his life when he said, “Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.”
Notice he didn’t say “The things you have learned about Christ in the gospels.” But he pointed to Christ in his examples of suffering, for he was in prison, having committed the crime of communicating the gospel – 1 Cor. 15:1-5, a crime for which he would eventually pay for with his life.
Amy, please rightly divide the Word of Truth, rejoice in your grandpa’s good health and continue to pray for those who are sick, as well as those who need spiritual righteousness from the giver of the most perfect gift: the cross of Christ and His resurrection which Paul says is His demonstration of love! (Romans 5:8) Can the healing of your grandpa be a better demonstration of His love than the cross? No, there is no better showing, there is not one event in life that is so great you can point to that and say, “There’s God’s love!” When He said, “It is finished” He broke the power of sin, He redeemed us, led us from captivity, set us free, gave us new life in Him and showed His everlasting love! And so much MORE! There is no greater gift.
Art, your post to Amy was spot on! Excellent, nothing is a greater demonstration of God’s love than the Cross!
For a long time of my life…i made a complete fool of myself. When i went out from my home with the false notions of fairness and Go(o)dliness the first thing that striked me was i should leave doing anythings that hurts anyone out there,, tht vl make god happy and in turn me..n tht the most moral way out there.All my problems i used put on the belief ,tht may b i m nt being the kind of person i am supposed to be..i transformed myself from the extremes of selfish to selfless and where that has taken me….nowhere ..never have i been so much dissatisfied with myself.
U cm , U live ur life and U die.Its jst all the story, bereft of all the sordid drama of hopes..a long time i waited tht god will transform everything ..nw i feel cheated d way ppl feel after getting duped.If fairness is all that is true why is it there so much discrepancy out there. If god is supreme why dont i hear of sm reverend father as much i hear about paris hilton..its nt tht i am eager too..nt always..
if all these bastards say tht they are atleast giving hope to millions who had none.I want to ask them what if the day they will be lying on their death-beds and will realize that nothing good has come out of it.My whole life is duped..hw much painful will it be..its gud i hv learned it in 22 yrs of my life “there’s no cavalry coming, u will feed for urself”..sm ppl will only learn when they hd lived their life…poor souls.
setu,
i here what you are saying and i feel sad for i have been where you are. it sucked. i am not sure i can provide all the awnsers for you but i do wish to try and provide comfort. so here goes. i to once thought that being “nice” and “selfless” was the purest form of gods love. i wanted to be like some kind of cool monk who could get his face bashed in and then rise from the floor to give a calm and witty monoluge that that would slay the anger of my oponent and touch him with the love of god. i wanted to be able to ride above the pain of this life with the spirit of god protecting me. this is not real life. real life is where i sometimes get pissed off and throw the spatula across the kitchen because i broke the yoke when i fliped the eggs. you are right to say you have been duped. somehow you have belived that it is your job to transform yourself but i tell you the truth, it is god who makes us who we are. every aspect of your personailty will have its upsides and down sides. avoiding hurting others is nice, seeking to help others is better. the problem with trying to be as selfless as you can is that you are still focusing on yourself. the most humble people in the world dont even know they are humble. i know it hurts to try as hard as you can to be “good” only to end up feeling used and broken, abandoned by god, and frankly a little stupid. every time i feel like i am at the end of my self and i cannot even hold still without breaking something in my self i get a little hope because i relise this is the perfect time for god to swing in and save me so i can have a cool story to tell. it is then that life adds a little more weight or god lets me dangle a little longer. and so i break. i fall. i fail. i cry out in confusion and anger and despair, MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME.
but it is not the end. our lord has not only the power to keep you from injury or heal you from sickness but indeed the more impressive more glorious power to let you even be crushed and broken compleatly before restoring you compleatly, well almost compleatly, when this happens you might find something missing. that thing will turn out to be some thing that was not good for you and god wanted to remove it from you. you will find that you are glad to be rid of it but there is a small scar to remind you of it’s existance. god is supreem, but i dont know why he dosen’t flaunt it( i would). you may be dissatisfied with yourself but i am glad for your honesty. my last statment is this, i am 31 years old and i have learned as much if not more in my last 9 years than in the 9 years previous to that so please do not assume to much about what you will or will not think on your death bead.
John,
The only thing I can add is something we get from scripture that is implied but not spoken about directly.
On being broken, imagine being the Apostle Paul asked to speak at a 1st century church and recognizing a family member of someone he had dragged to their death in his former job. Imagine the tears, the forgiveness, and finally the unspeakable joy of having the same Holy Spirit indwelling, empowering the power of the resurrection, then fellowshipping around God’s Word as he told of his conversion and conversations with their Lord.
When you read the 2nd half of Ephesians you see the tremendous importance of godly relationships, and the submission we need to love each other unconditionally, with joy and thanksgiving to Christ being the fire that warms us, and to remind us of our sure hope in Him. Peace and grace.
~~Artskoe
if you dont believe in God now, it will be to late to give your heart to Him when he comes.
WAKE UP PEOPLE IF GOD DOES NOT EXIST, NEITHER DO YOU…
Alisha,
um…did you read the post? Did you even read the first sentance or two?
OK,
I didn’t plan on commenting on another post but I will anyway. I get what you are saying here. The thing that kills me is that I’m just a normal little Christian dude with a job, a family, a church and a Bible. I never went to Seminary and never really wanted to. I sin all the time and I hate it but God is merciful and forgiving. However, after less than a year of study of early Christian teachings about the Scriptures from the primary Church Fathers (far less than one to two hours a week of study) I can totally answer the whole issue of God commanding the death of the Caananites, etc.
The earliest Father’s, even before Origen but he taught this too, taught that these people (the one’s God ordered killed including children, etc) went to the holding place and that they are the ones that Christ spoke too when He, “descended into hell” (The Apostles Creed). He offered the Gospel to them and some no doubt believed and some no doubt were still hard of heart and did not but at least the innocents had the chance to believe. This was a merciful act. He removed the children from earth and their sinful parents by death and then gave them a chance that they would not have had in earthly life…to belive in Christ!
The ancient Church taught that salvation was a journey (not works but a journey through time). It was not some arbitrary moment in time that we mentally assented to some statement. And in cases of folks that never had the chance to believe in Christ, God could very well give them the chance in Sheol. We do not understand everything about God and when we feel we do we can rest assured that it is not the real God, Jehovah.
Questioner,
Once again, very good question.
You may be right about Jesus offering eternal life to the children in Sheol. I understand that this is a view.
But here are some things to think about. First, did Jesus really descend into hell? Yes, teh apostle’s creed says this, but does Scripture? This idea comes from Ephesians 4:9 and 1 Peter 3:19. But these verses are very tricky to explain, and also have multiple views.
Second, with this view, what would you do with verses like Heb 9:27? Doesn’t it seem from that verse that if you die without believing in Jesus, there is no “second chance”?
Again, I am not arguing with you…your view has some merit, and many hold to it.
Thanks for your reply Jeremy. Again, I’m not a scholar so I won’t be arguing whether a certain word is a verb or a noun, but more importantly looking at what the early Christians believed since many of the early Church Fathers were disciples of the Apostles. Obviously they were not without error but on the difficult issues that have multiple interpretations I think they should be the tie breakers. They were closer to the source. As for 1 Peter 3:19 the overwhelming majority of the early Christians believed that this meant he spoke to prisoners in Hell. They put it in the Apostles Creed. In my mind we Christians have been trying to be a little too smart by half for a few centuries now and have forgotten that the early Christians decided things in ecumenical councils where the Spirit, if allowed, could move in hundreds of men to interpret Scripture. Now we just grab our Bible and decide for ourself and say that the Holy Spirit led me to this belief.
As for Heb 9:27 it is referring to all people. We must all give account on judgement day and of course before that we must die. Christians give the account of Christ and His blood and non-believers site their works. I don’t see anything contextual that does not allow God to hold OT people that were not presented the Law or the message of the coming Messiah in Sheol, therefore I revert back to 1 Pet 3:19 and the early Churches stance on that Scripture.
in christ alone…my hope is found.
Satan attacks me in my thoughts day and night and he makesit so i can barely eat i pray to the lord and he consoles me god is REAL i used to e a drug dealer the most violent and disruptive of men and one night i came under attack from satan and felt like satan was makeing me into someone im not putting thoughts in my head of death suicide and sexual immorality then i read the wqordof god and everything felt better when i read the Book “The Advocate” spiritual warfare is real and god can save you from satans tourment dont let Satan claim the rights to your soul i had trouble believing in god for years my mind worked in science and fact but the fact is that God is real and living and when you leave this earth you Will face Judgement
Nathanael,
I hear/feel your pain. However, you should read the entire blog post before commenting.