Eventually I plan to write about my transition away from 5-point Calvinism. But I found something today I wanted to share.
The first point of Calvinism is Total Depravity, which essentially means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.
In Calvinism, this view naturally applies to children as well as adults, and yet even still, it was a shock for me to read the following statement by the leading American Calvinist, Jonathan Edwards:
As innocent as children seem to be to us, yet if they are out of Christ, they are not so in God’s sight, but are young vipers, and are infinitely more hateful than vipers.
Edwards said this in his work Some Thoughts Concerning the Present Revival, but it was later edited out by his grandson, Sereno Dwight.
Some might think this is an isolated case. Maybe it is not common, but I suspect it is more common than Calvinists like to admit. Logically, Total Depravity leads to this view. When I was a pastor, there was one Calvinistic father in my congregation who called his children “sinner black spots.”
I, for one, would have trouble worshiping a God who views children as infinitely more hateful than vipers. How about you?
The debate between Calvinism and Arminianism must rank near the very top of the list of issues that have wasted the time of those who love Christ. It makes debates about the number of angels who can rest on the head of a pin seem practical by comparison.
The most pernicious aspect of C-v-A is that its antagonists insist we must all be in one camp or the other – that they have left us no option (I say “pernicious” advisedly because it pressures everyone to argue). Perhaps they haven’t. But Christ has left us the option of exercising childlike faith in Him and eschewing involvement in matters too great for us (Ps 131).
You may be right. Maybe I won’t write on it more later….
If in writing about it you can succeed in warning people to avoid getting caught in the trap of debating about it, more power to you.
Thank you so much for this true and thoughtful response!
it would appear to me that at the core of this issue isn’t so much calvinism vs arminianism, but what lies at the heart, what is truly at stake, is a clear and proper understanding of the character of God. Our correct understanding of the character of God sets the foundation for every single point of doctrine that will follow. I cannot disagree more with calvinism on many points of faith, especially with regards to predestination which makes God a heartless monster rather than the compassionate loving redeemer that scripture supports.
‘Iniquity is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction drives it far from him.’ (Proverbs)
But now is that rod of correction cold, stearn, distant? Or is that rod of correction involved, kind, example living, and praising as well as admonishing? It makes all the difference.
We are all worse than vipers, we have venom and the intellect to cunningly inject it when our adversaries least expect it. Children prove often that they have sin natures, but the Bible also says, ‘raise up a child in the way they should go, and he will not depart from it when he is old.’
Becoming twice the son of hell that my father was is not what that verse is talking about.
God bless.
Larry,
Discipline and correction are definitely needed. I am not arguing against that. But it is neither loving nor Godly to view our children as vipers hated by God.
Every single translation I’ve looked up reads “Foolishness” or “Folly”. Iniquity means immoral behavior. Folly means to be unwise and lacking in judgement. Most things children do are a result of lacking skills, judgement, wisdom, and brain development. Certainly humans have a sinful nature.
No, humans are not worse than vipers. Calvinists, while I believe they are probably more accurate in their systematic theology, have a very poorly developed theology of the body and the Imago Dei. We should be extremely cautious, when using terminology that reduces image bears down to animals, bugs, or basically pieces of shit. When Jesus uses brood of vipers for the Pharisees, He is calling them sons of the devil, and it comes right after he warns them of the unpardonable sin. So we have people with the oracles of God, who have hardened their hearts, blasphemed the Holy Spirit, and are plotting to crucify Jesus…and that is worthy of the same viper analogy as my 2 year old pitching a fit because she is super sad there aren’t any pink popsicles left? I full-heartedly ascribed to this at one point not long ago. Now I’m rather disgusting. Sinner? Yes! Needs a savior? Yes!!!! Unwise? Yes. Viper? Bug? Animal? Human excrement? ABSOLUTLY NOT!
I actually came here because I was researching if Calvinists tend to be involved in more child abuse cases than Arminian’s. I was raised with the phrase that children are “vipers in diapers”. Everything they do is from a sinful, nasty, selfish, evil heart. Even a new baby crying for milk or because of the discomfort of a dirty diaper is being selfish. Going into parenting believing that children were selfish evil sinners…it was disastrous. Turns out you tend to treat people the way you overwhelmingly see them.
Does it really matter that your right and the other person is apparently wrong. Jesus Love trumps all the heated debate about ism’s.
Men will always argue, as they are full of pride and will never admit to being wrong entirely.
The trouble with arguing is that it ends up in judging someone which is Gods job not ours. When we judge we dethrone God and put ourselves in His place.
There is nothing wrong in discussing stuff about God, like how he thinks, why He does things which we do not understand. but in the end we just have to accept the way He is.
If we believe He is Love then all He does is based on that premise. Judging God is even more scary than judging man.
Rather than following the philosophies of man just follow Jesus, or is that not challenging enough for our intellect. Pride comes before our fall.
Clive
Just to add, even God wants a conversation with us Isaiah 1 v 8. but are we?, as we will always loose the argument, and do we really want to be washed as white as snow and told our sins are like scarlet. Remember as we point the finger of judgement at our brother there are three pointing back at us on the same hand, tripling the curse on us.
Yes, judgement is a curse. Jesus said “don’t curse someone or you are in danger of the fires of hell” Matthew 5 v 22 also Jesus said “do not make a vow– just say a simple yes I will or no I wont anything beyond this is from the evil one”. verse 34 plus 37. Clive
I run from conflict. I really, really dislike it. So I really do not enjoy arguing with anyone, especially about theology.
However, a nice, friendly theological debate is a wonderful thing.
Hmm…taking note of the above warnings about debate, etc….I was raised in church and never heard of Calvin or Arminius until the last couple of years, so the debate was new to me. But that aside, I will share the effect of Calvinism on me when I was confronted by it a couple of years ago.
I was in a blog conversation with several people and a self-professed Calvinist joined the thread, condemning a woman who was questioning some things. I got angry and challenged him with some questions of my own. His response to me was that if a young girl is raped, it was ordained of God and we needed to just look for the good He intended from it. To me, as a woman who was raped repeatedly as a child, this sounded like he was telling me that those events were planned by God and bore His stamp of approval. This ticked me off….a lot. But it also caused a great deal of pain. I have to be honest…if what was done to me was endorsed by God for some ‘greater good’, then He is a child-abusing monster undeserving of worship.
I understand, when I say that, it can be jarring to some. But I stand by it. I have had some serious conversations with God about this. I have told Him exactly what I said above. And he understands. And He IS NOT like that.
So to me, it is not an idle debate with no point. This teaching, especially when crammed down the throat of those who have been abused, only serves to drive them away from a loving God.
Okay…end of rant. 🙂
Hearing your story made me cry..I kept seeing my daughter being repeatedly raped and I stated boiling with anger. If tast happened to my daughter, I would be in prison. I would have murdered the man who did that. But then I owuld blame myself because how could I not know? Especialy now that she’s only 4.
I’m so sorry that happened to you, Ms. Gunn 🙁
Anthony, thank you.
I apologize if my comment was too intense. But I really want those of the Calvinistic persuasion to think about the implications of what they say – and the effect that can have.
Anthony, I want to repeat my thanks. Your reaction is the opposite of my own parents. I am resisting the urge (normal among abuse survivors) to take responsibility for upsetting you. 🙂
Your reaction tells me you care deeply for your daughter. She’s fortunate. I think one of the more insidious aspects of this man’s argument was that it painted a picture of God that looked like my parents. When I told my father about it a couple of years ago, his comments were “I can see why you don’t like to be around him (the abuser)” and “well, the Holy Spirit will comfort you. That’s what He does – comfort.” And that was all he had to say. My mom, on the other hand, has repeatedly sided with the abuser.
The only place of sanity I’ve ever had was with Jesus. Paint Him as a callous, indifferent manipulator who uses people for his own ends without concern for the pain inflicted (which is what the Calvinism I’ve seen does) and I have no safe place left.
Well, I’m not Jim Boehner, but anything with children gets me upset.
Then of course, even though I don’t like country music, I burst into full tears before he gets to the refrain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yFl7lIQ8E8
Hmm, maybe I do have some similarities to Boehner 😉
When we lived in Queens, our neighbors had a 13 year old girl who started hanging out w/ the wrong crowd. (REALLY wrong) Her mother, a fellow Christian said matter-of-fsctly “Well, I’m not surprised, she was raped by her cousin last year”. My wife said “What did you do?” She goes, “what COULD we do? He comes over every week and plays cards with my husband”
My wife was flabbergasted. Woudn’t want to ruin your husband’s precious card game while your innocent daughter was raped and then you invite him over..every week..while your daughter is THERE. And she TOLD her father. We found out he would go to the bathroom, sneak in her room, rape her and come back and play cards. I’d e in a serious bind, because I wouldn’t want my daughter visiting me in prison.
I’m raising my son to be her protector.
Hmm…again, your daughter is fortunate. I can’t imagine what it would be like to have someone feel that way about me. :/
That defies reason. I stop everything I do for my children. I’m also responsinle for how they turn out. I can’t understand how you CAN’T love your children above everything else. We waited until I was 40 to have children, mostly because I was scared that I would mess them up. But the minute my daughter was born, my life changed. We moved out of NYC, and went to a better place to raise a child. I only work about an hour a day on my blog so as not to take time away from my children. I never had a father, so I know the problems of not having one.
Sometimes when one follows their theology out to what they believe to be its logical conclusions, they end up with nonsense such as the man on the blog. They end up with their own ultra-weird religion, something that looks nothing like Jesus. Stay away from people like that. Some of them are literally dangerous. (I heard a very similar explanation from a man who had raped his own young daughter repeatedly.)
Katherine,
That is very sad. I also am sorry that happened to you, and for what that woman told you. Both were terribly wrong, and God does not ordain or plan such things to happen.
Do you think that God has been able to use what happened to you to help other people gain freedom from similar experiences, or to learn what God is really like?
Jeremy, THAT is exactly what He has/is doing. I have no problem with the truth that He will use things – redeem things – work things to our good and the good of others, But to twist that to mean that He planned evil for that purpose is just sick. 🙂
Our heart is wicked, and it’s the job of Christian parents to raise their children “in the way they should go”. We test the heart, not necesarily the behavior. Our kids don’t necessarily have to be well-behaved, but if their heart isn’t right, then we have a problem.
But about Calvinism. I was raised to be a five pointer, but I read the entire Bible thru as a kid (Good News Translation) many times, and I never found our Lord to be that way. I’m not talking about “proof texting”. I just never saw the exclusive, damning ways of TULIP. I always said, that if we are truly his elect as calvin says, once saved always saved, then I don’t have to be holy! But the Arminian camp (most pentecostals), which stresses personal holiness is the other extreme. You can become legalistic. I tend nowadays to believe in both A & C! (A bit of both) The Calvary Chapel view is more in tune with my own. Some call it two point Calvinism 🙂
Yeah, I am 2.5 pointer…. but only because I believe 1/2 a point of each! Ha!
While I don’t agree with Calvinists or Arminians and I think their debate is a waste of precious energy that should instead be devoted to serving the Lord, I think we have to say something in fairness. It is that all Calvinists would not be abusive to KG as that man was, nor are all such insensitive people Calvinists. In other words, I think Calvinists are wrong but I don’t think that they all would whitewash rape.
Rape is perhaps the most despicable thing that one human being can do to another – worse than murder. Those who excuse it must not be excused. Therefore, I join Ant in condemning both the man who did the evil thing and the Calvinist who tried to make God complicit in it. And I have to believe there are Calvinists who would agree with us about this.
I definitely agree with you. We should never paint all calvinists with the same brush, however the puritans and those who led the witch trials were calvinists. Plus, Calvin was a wimpy Frenchman 😉
Yes, I see your point. I know some wonderful, good-hearted, Chirstlike, caring, service-oriented, loving Calvinists.
Mike, my intent was not to say that all Calvinists are like this. It was only to point out to what extreme the doctrine can be taken.
Agreed.
I don’t think the A vs. C debate is a waste of time when it serves to reveal to someone blinded to the character and nature of God, how genuinely loving God really is.
It’s not a place to camp permanently but it’s worth pitching a tent for a few weekends to consider how our view of God’s Character and love impacts our daily walk with God.
Bart,
Hmmm… I might be inclined to agree.
I spent nearly ten years of my life studying this issue (not constantly, of course, but all the books I read, all the websites I visited, etc, etc, were about about this issue).
I have since stopped studying it, but it might be good to go back sometime and write some posts about what I learned just so others who are researching the issues can make informed decisions on their own.
Was it worth the thousands of hours you spent juggling the A vs C debate in your head?
Did it get you any closer to Jesus?
I have to agree with many of the other posters here: the entire A vs C debate is a tool of the Devil to distract Christians from living like Christ—loving their neighbors and practicing forgiveness.
This ludicrous debate only serves to divide and monger hate and discord, as far as I’ve ever been able to tell.
I grew up in a rabidly Calvinist environment. I was practically beat over the head with Calvinism and made to think non-Calvinists were bad people. I remember the word “Arminians” being muttered with disgust growing up.
Truth is, neither one is right, and even if one group was, we’d have no way of knowing.
Jesus said “BY their fruits you will know them”.Ive only met one Calvinist a Pastor and was struck by his arrogance.Ive debated on a forum with a Calvinist same thing arrogant.This was the sin of the Pharisees that even our Lord had to contend with.When they see human beings including children as depraved then you can understand why they act this way its in their DNA.Remember God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believed in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.Sinners YES depraved NO.I agree there are those who HATE the light and love the darkness God knows who they are our mission on this earth is to show to those who dont believe Christ in us.
Well, they have a right to be arrogant, since they are completely right! 😉
I currently have 14,278 Calvinist points – at 15,000 I get a free tote bag!
Seriously though, I find Calvinism repulsive. How do you reconcile the concept of an all loving God with a God who views children as vipers?
-HH
they debate about this doctrine as if it cannot be countered yet it is countered by many scholars who believe in free will.But what they dont seem to grasp is how they come across not just to other Christians but also non-believers.
Heretic Husband (nice name!!),
Where do I sign up for one of those tote bags?
pardon?
If you had a hypothetical child who, fully understanding the nature of God actively rejected Him permanently, then yes I would say God would find that child’s presence unacceptable and hateful – except that this doesn’t happen in real life. That’s the problem with all 5 points of Calvinism, is that they depend on an absence of free will, so if a child isn’t part of ‘the elect’ then their rejection of God and damnation is complete and permanent.
My disagreement with Calvinism’s points is that all 5 points are all based on assuming a complete lack of free will, so each bases itself on Biblical principles, then among 2 possible interpretations of a passage chooses one that means ignoring other Scriptural principles that clearly demonstrate Man being given a will and invited to cooperate in God’s plan.
I liked Jeremy’s “2.5 pointer” Calvinism because at first I thought “well you’re at least half wrong then…” but then I saw the 1/2 point in each and thought “Oh, we probably essentially agree on this” although I don’t give partial credit so I would say I’m 0/5. The funny thing is I’ve also seen some people who consider themselves 5 point Calvinists, but then in a description of each point they say “This point doesn’t mean… it only means…” and in each case they reject what Calvin clearly meant in establishing the point and instead reach a conclusion that most any non-Calvinist would agree with, the true basis behind the Calvinist false interpretation that (I think) earns them half credit for Jeremy; so I think we all have to be clear and spend time asking clarifying questions because we can express different things the same way and the same thing different ways.
Obviously from the time I’ve spent posting this, I might still agree with those who say “much time has been wasted” on debating C v. A, but I disagree that all debating of it is wasteful. That is, if we argue with our brothers in Christ in a hateful way and allow ourselves to be distracted from actually living as Christ would have us, it’s entirely a waste of time; but if we are debating (I tend to use the words ‘argue’ and ‘debate’ to distinguish between the destructive, antagonistic and the constructive sharing) while maintaining proper care and concern for the PERSONS on the opposing perspective, then even if neither of us changes our position at the end we can both still benefit from the exchange of ideas and hopefully both walk away from the debate prepared to work cooperatively in Christ’s name despite differing beliefs in the details of His nature that are beyond us anyways.
John,
Good point about people who claim to be Calvinists, but then don’t frame their Calvinism the way Calvin did. Are such people really Calvinists? I would say, “No.”
What I don’t understand is why so many people want to be Calvinists. What is the allure in it? Is it because so many big name pastors and authors are Calvinists?
I think that was why I was originally a Calvinist. Most of the pastors and authors I read and respected were Calvinists, and so I thought, “Well, they must be right.”
I would say ‘no’ as well. Though people can sometimes be offended at being told they aren’t something that they choose to identify themselves with, saying “No, I don’t believe in [attributes of a given group] but I still choose to identify myself as a [group], who are you to tell me that I’m not?” And I can understand when those attributes are just things the public tends to associate with a group, not necessarily something that describes every member; but sometimes those attributes are by definition what the word means, the word ceases to be useful if it doesn’t necessarily mean anything.
I think that you’ve got the right idea as to why people often do identify with a group in their thoughts even though they more or less shouldn’t by definition, it does often have to do with an authority that one respects or trusts.
I think it’s definitely something we need to keep in mind when assessing our own positions. I am confident that the set of nouns I use to describe myself are based on my own ideology, not on authorities I follow, but when I’m honest and self-aware enough I have to admit that I still get that same sort of pride in important figures (both historical and in my personal life) who share the same thought; it’s something we have to keep ourselves aware of to keep it in check. It’s not a bad thing to have a sense of identity with a group, but if we let pride turn that into an us vs. them, it becomes divisive and harmful.
It helps to keep in mind the early Chapters of 1 Corinthians – Paul does go so far as to appeal to followers to emulate his example as a follower of Christ, but only spending a good deal of time throughout the first 3 chapters warning us of the dangers and pitfalls of loosing your perspective when following a human leader. (Note that even people who claim to simply follow Jesus are subject to the admonition in chapter 1 – you can be trying to follow even the most perfect person but still be divisive.)
Regarding pride, the next book I am going to write will be titled, “The Three Most Humble Men in the World, and How I Led the Other Two to Christ.” 🙂
i have to agree! There is some extreme discipline( borderline child abuse) going on in those “new calvinists” circles. I have sadly experienced it with my own grandchildren. True the discipline is not done in anger but it is still a damaging- thought out ritual of discpline taught from the churches. Children should NEVER have to be spanked every day and usually MORE even Several times a day -over everything that is considered disobedient, Babies should never be hit! And no one should be spanking children with glue sticks, plumbing lines and such!
I did not even know what Calvinism was but when I read ther books on discipline I was shocked! I never experienced these extremes in main stream or non calvinists non denominational churches.
If you have not been affected by their beliefs you don’t know how hurtful they can be.
I agree it may come from how they view children and people.
When you choose to view children as horrible sinners you treat them that way. AND they don’t take into account the cognitive abilites of small children and what they understand. They are innocent in that they don’t understand some things when they are very little. They are more open and trusting. I am thankful that Jesus doesn’t beat us everytime we make a mistake but convicts our hearts and allows us to repent and learn. You can train up a child and discipline and continue to be encouraging and focus on God’s mercy and love.
I don’t want to sin because I love Jesus not because he is going to hit me! T
They seem to focus on rules and legalism instead of salvation! I don’t think it is harsh to bring up this issue. I have recently met many families hurt by this theology. The NEW Calvinists seem to be the one creating the tension and division. If you don’t believe all of their doctrines, then you aren’t really saved! I wish I had known about Calvinism before it tore our family to pieces.
Tore me to pieces. No one cares. Father a predator. Still employed as a pastor and teacher. Calvinism is a cult and people arguing about it like it’s a doctrine is EXACTLY what these evil men want AND CAUSES ME TO HAVE SEVERE TRAUMATIC REACTIONS. No real person with a heart would have anything to do with Calvinism and as a PK child destroyed in entirety I am angry no Christians protect me as I am still in danger. CALVINISTS ARE HDING SOME VIOLENT BEHAVIOUR THAT WHEN THEY DECIDE YOU AREN’T SAVED GETS RELEASED ON YOU. No one protected me from psychopathic parents or their evil doctrine. I was NOT born bad. I was a good kid that was told I had a heart for jesus, and I diD. CALVINISTS AND THE PCA destroyed my heart, mind, health, finances AND ABILITY MEET A MATE AND FORM A FAMILY. My career and education were sabotaged and I was thrown away rather than given proper trauma help from what THEY INFLICTED WHEN I STARTED TO DISSOCIATE IN MY TWENTIES. WHAT A WAY TO TREAT A PREACHER’S CHILD. I WAS LEFT WITH NOTHING AND NO CHURCH AND NO GOD TO CARE ABOUT ME. THEN I READ CHRISTIANS DEBATING THIS??? HOW CAN THEY NOT RECOGNIZE PREDATORS AND THINK ANY OF THIS BEHAVIOUR IS ACCEPTABLE ?! I AM JUSTIFIED IN MY ANGER WHILE CALVINISTS SPEND ALL THEIR TIME WORKING ON AN ARGUMENTATIVE RATIONALIZED DEFENSE TO GET THEM OFF THE HOOK FOR BEING SATANIC IN MIND, ACTIONS AND HEART, ABUSIVE IN EVERY WAY. Can you imagine how most of these comments burn me and cause feelings of despair and rage. ? Thank you for writing that it is destructive. You never ever hit another human being especially a child. Violence cannot be justified ! It also shows the lack of maturity and inability to be a parent but everybody is so busy arguing that they miss the truth staring them in the face. Calvinism is a cover-up for people feeling entitled to be dictators, soulless, violent, child predators and more. Wake up the people!!
Jesus was not referring to children with his harsh words! White-washed tombs and sons of vipers were used to describe religious leaders who were more interested in laws and being holier than everyone else instead of leading the people. They did not really care about the people. They just cared about how religious they were! Jesus also said the father wants mercy not sacrifices ( when they they accused him of healing on the Sabbath).
When Jesus blessed the children, he said”such is the kingdom of heaven.” Unless you come as a little child, you will not enter..
When did Jesus ever say anything negative about chidren? Never! And we following Christ or Calvin?
Excellent points, Grandma!
Jesus loved children, and they were never scared of Him or fearful that He would smite them over the head or squash them like a bug. I had a Calvinistic friend once who called his children “Sinner black spot.” I always thought, “What are you telling them about how God views them and how they should view themselves?”
Calvinisim is a damaging belief system in so many ways.
Then start protecting children. The PC A and Calvinism are preying and abusing children. It’s not a point to argue, it’s the reality and the truth.
AMEN! we need to be discerning.
If you deny free will then you deny consent. Because consent is based on free will. Therefore Calvinists by definition are rapists. Simple as that.
Jesus tells us to “be like children”. The fact that Calvinism denigrates children should be enough for sane Christians to flee it. Calvinism is nothing but a cult that allows hateful people to hate without remorse.
Seeing as Calvinists are idolators, I’m not surprised to hear they think little children born outside the church are worth less than vipers.
(Idolators, you ask? Yes—their idol is that despicable asp, John Calvin.)