The last couple weeks I have been working my way through dozens of Bible and theology questions which people have submitted through that “ask a question” area in the sidebar. Below is a question that made me laugh, not because it was a silly question (there’s no such thing), but because of how impossible it was to answer!
The reader essentially asked me to define the Trinity…
I want to know more about the Trinity. Thank you.
Below is the answer I sent back to the reader. Feel free to help me out with a better explanation of the Trinity in the comment section below.
Whew!
Asking me to explain or define the Trinity is almost like asking me to define God! An impossible task!
There is so much to discuss and talk about regarding the Trinity, it is hard to know where to begin or exactly what you want to know about the Trinity. So let me do my best to briefly explain and define the Trinity, and also explain why the Trinity is essential and important for Christian doctrine.
Define the Trinity
First, the Trinity is best defined as “One God who exists in three persons.” There are not three Gods. There is only one God. But somehow, in ways beyond human comprehension, God exists in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
There is no good analogy in creation, but some have likened the Trinity to the three forms of water, ice, water, and steam, while others have equated it to the light and heat of the sun. My personal preference (though again, it is a bad analogy) is how we as humans consist of body, soul, and spirit. We are one person with three parts. Of course, God does not consist of parts. Each person of the Trinity is fully God.
It is difficult to understand, but this is primarily because we are not God.
Explaining the Trinity to mortal human beings is like trying to explain colors to a blind man or sound to a deaf person. It like trying to use words to explain speech to a dog. You can bark at the dog, but that doesn’t help, and you can speak to a dog with words, but he won’t understand what you’re saying and will never be able to speak for himself.
Believing in the Trinity
So if the Trinity is so difficult to understand, why is it important to believe? There are probably thousands of reasons why the Trinity is critical to Christian thought, but there are three of the most important reasons. (Yes, I chose three simply because I am writing about the Trinity.)
1. First, the Bible teaches us that God exists as a Trinity.
No, the word “trinity” is never used in the Bible, but there are passages all over the place which reveal that there are three persons in the Godhead who exist together as one God.
We know, for example, that God is one (Deut 6:4; 1 Tim 2:5; 1 Cor 8:6; etc.), and yet Jesus, who most perfectly revealed God to us (John 14:7; Col 1:15; Heb 1:3) often spoke of His Father and of sending the Holy Spirit (e.g., John 10; John 14-17). Even at the baptism of Jesus, we see Jesus coming up out of the water and the Holy Spirit descending upon Him like a dove, and the Father speaking to Jesus from heaven (Matt 3:16-17).
There are numerous other passages, but the bottom line is that whether we understand it or not, the Bible teaches the reality of the Trinity (cf. Matt 28:19; 2 Cor 13:14; 1 Pet 1:2).
2. Second, the Trinity is important because it shows that God is relational and loving.
Christians believe that God does not change in His character or attributes. Yet think about what it would mean for God to not be a Trinity. If God did not exist as a Trinity, then prior to the creation of humans and prior to the creation of angels, God could not have lived in any form of loving relationship with anybody or anything.
Without the Trinity, God could not have lived for eternity in love or in relationship. The Trinity allows the loving and relational attributes of God to have eternally existed with God.
Other monotheistic religions which have no concept of the Trinity have great trouble explaining or understanding how God could be loving and relational. Why? Because for most of God’s existence, there was no one to love other than himself.
In fact, it could be argued that if there was no Trinity, there could have been no creation whatsoever. Why not? Because if the Trinity did not exist, then God would not be relational (because there was no one to relate to), and hence, there would be no reason for God to create anything with which to relate. The only way a non-relational God would decided to create being to love and take care of was if He recognized that without other beings in the universe, He was lacking or deficient in some way. But then, this makes God less than God!
A non-Trinitarian God could not and would not create, unless He decided to become relational and loving, in which case, He would be admitting some sort of imperfection in His being.
It is much better to believe what the Bible teaches, that God is loving and relational and as such, has always existed in a loving relationship within the Trinity. As a result of this loving relationship, God decided to create other beings with which to share the loving relationship He already experienced within the Godhead.
3. This then leads us to the third reason the Trinity is important: Christians love others because God is love.
Christianity is an outward, loving, relational-focused way of living. Part of this is because we believe in the Trinity. In Genesis we read that God created us in His own image. There is a wide range of ideas on what this means, but one thing that is certainly included in the truth of being created in God’s image is that we were created for community. Just as God had an eternal relationship within the Trinitarian Godhead, so also, humans are to live in relationships with God and with one another.
The love that each member of the Godhead shares with the other members of the Trinity was also shared with humans when we were created. We love because He first loved us.
If there was no Trinity and yet somehow, God inexplicably decided to create humans, then it would be logical to say that love and community was not an essential character of God, and therefore, need not be an essential part of our life either. If God did not eternally exist in a loving Trinity, then we would not need to exist in love either.
So again, without a belief in the Trinity, we lose a belief in a loving God, and therefore, lost any reason to believe that God wants us to love others. If we are to act like God and God has existed without showing love toward others for most of eternity, then there is little reason to live in loving ways toward others now, for love would not be an essential characteristic or attribute of God.
I could go on and on, but I hope that this answer helps briefly explain and define the Trinity and show why belief in the Trinity is essential to Christian belief and practice.
If you want to weigh in, please feel free to add your comments below. Also, please consider sharing this post on Twitter and Facebook below because then others can benefit from the discussion on this theological question.
Ah! If this were the way everyone did theology, I would be willing to discuss theology (referring back to the post I wrote a couple of years ago about why I will not “argue” theology with anyone). You did a very good job with this post, Jeremy. Very good.
Yes, God is love and God is a relational God, both among the persons of the Godhead, and with His creation. He chooses to be in relation with us. He gives us the freedom to choose to be in relation with Him, or not.
In my way of looking at things, how can we really understand relationship with God, loving God, if we do not love our neighbors? When we are loving others,in tangible ways that they understand, we are loving God. We were reminded of this again day before yesterday by a most interesting person we found among the poorest of the poor, a messenger..
Let me explain you Christianity. In the beginning was word with god than word was god so god the father, god the son & god the holy ghost (where it came don’t ask me) = 3 persons = 1 god = trinity. Than in AD = 0, god begat son jesus but was actually god (though had a beginning and end) because jesus was I AM before i.e. god himself. Then father god crucified son god jesus for actually father gods mistake but since he was smarter son god jesus had to pay the price. But remember trinity ??? they are actually same that means father god killed son god – NO!!! HIMSELF. Where was holy ghost ? Don’t ask me – may be sleeping. So jesus is half man half god – NO CANNOT BE – so jesus is full man full god i.e. hybrid (uses only unleaded fuel). Now father god is Alpha & Omega meaning with no beginning and no end. But jesus had beginning & end but was word before & I AM even before that, so what is he ??? He is son of man, lamb of god, son of god, hybrid, I AM, 3 in 1 but 1 in 3. Now jesus also resurrected (though gods do not die) & was seen floating around to some people especially mary magdelene (could be his wife – WINK WINK).
Yes. If we truly understand God, it will reveal it self in love for our neighbors (and enemies).
Of course, if we are not loving our neighbors, then maybe we need to rethink our theology, rather than just go love people out of a sense of duty or responsibility. Right thinking leads to right living.
You show humbleness by saying, “Feel free to help me out with a better explanation of the Trinity…”. Assuredly, I have none. Instead, I assent to Sam’s view which says, “You did a very good job with this post, Jeremy. Very good.”
By the way, I am flabbergasted seeing that you have plenty of work to do with answering all those various questions of your readers. I can only imagine how much time you must have spent on it. Hats off!
Back to the Trinity.
I’d just like to quote my old friend Tertullian ( 😉 ):
“That which is infinite is known only to itself. This it is which gives some notion of God, while yet beyond all our conceptions—our very incapacity of fully grasping Him affords us the idea of what He really is. He is presented to our minds in His transcendent greatness, as at once known and unknown.”
Jeremy, I think you got it right by pointing to what God could not be if not having been a Trinity in Himself, that is, an ever loving and relational God from time immemorial [reminds me somehow of an apophatic theology as I saw in “The Cloud of Unknowing” or “The Dark Night of the Soul” (Juan de la Cruz)].
No human being can define God or the Trinity. We can believe it – or not. However, we can experience the LOVE of the Trinitarian God – by His grace alone. To put it briefly, we may know Him in all three persons as follows.
(1) JESUS CHRIST
“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (Jn 6:29 ESV)
That means, the Father makes us believe in His beloved Son (Jn 6:44) through the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, who glorifies Jesus in us by only showing us what He has received from Jesus before (Jn 16:14).
(2) THE HOLY SPIRIT
First we ought to be baptized with water by a mere human being, then we will be baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit (Mk 1:8) “who proceeds from the Father” (Jn 15:26 ESV). (*)
(3) THE FATHER
If we know Jesus and have been baptized with the Holy Spirit by Him, then there is only one revelation left since “no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him” (Mt 11:27 ESV).
Seems as if no person of the Trinity ever leaves the other two. They have always been one God (although it sounds strange to our ears) because they are one in the Spirit as we ought to be (Jn 17:11). And we ourselves do not cease either to exist as distinct individual persons even though God makes us one in His Spirit. We may be one with God, with Christ, with the Holy Spirit, and with one another. Yet still, there is always only ONE GOD.
After all, it’s not that difficult, the Trinity thing, is it… (just kidding).
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(*) With regard to the chronological order, it could be the other way around as well (see Acts 10:47).
Dear Susanne,
Is it possible that all 3 Gods can work independantly with each other? In bible it seems that they were as many Jesus sayings are completely independant of the God, see below:
“My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.” (John 7:16)
Matthew 27:46: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
“But of that day and that hour no man knows, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” (Mark 13:32 )
1 Cor 15:28: “When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to him, that God may be everything to everyone
Jesus refers to, “My God and your God (John 20:17 ).
• Zecchariah-14:9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
• John 7:16: “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.”
• “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)
• Mark 13:32: “But of that day and that hour no man knows, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”
• “When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to him, that God may be everything to every one (1 Cor 15:28 ).
• Jesus refers to, “My God and your God (John 20:17 ).
That’s a very good question, Khan. And the Scriptures you mentioned already answered it, right? 😉
In fact, all the things we do personally together with the light, that is, bearing the fruit of those good works God has prepared before, will each and every one of us lead to do different things in different situations at different times, although we all have been made one with God. And we will never be able to do anything for God which is pleasing in His sight if we cease abiding in Him.
God however is not bound by time and space as we are. God never ceases to be God.
Jesus on the cross agonizingly realized for the first time in His earthly life that He couldn’t feel His Father’s presence any longer. Jesus Christ didn’t cease to be God either; it was the man Jesus whose body had to die because of our sins. But at that very moment, Jesus was completely forsaken. Beforehand, men and even His disciples left Him as He had prophesied. Yet then, there was no one with whom He could share His love anymore. Humanly spoken, a love that cannot be shared, a lover who has no counterpart whom he could love, what can he still do?
Referring to the Oneness of the Trinity which is omnipresent, I can only say from my own experience with our Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, that none of them could ever do anything the two other persons couldn’t or wouldn’t do as well. They have one will, so to speak.
Nonetheless, through the Holy Spirit I have a clear and distinct perception of the Father and the Son. The only one, for instance, who ever chastened me was Christ for that is the commission His Father gave Him. Although I received a lot of love from Jesus, from our Daddy in Heaven I received…always only love.
Honestly, there were times when I took refuge with our Father in His tenderly comforting embrace because Christ’s spiritual punishment was too painful for me (that was during my justification process). Later in sanctification, I realized how good it was for me to have been chastened by Christ since I saw the evil rotten roots that had been hidden in the dark cellar of my heart.
Today, I am somehow ‘stuck like glue’ to Jesus (that was exclusively His work, of course) but things have not always been that way. With God, by contrast, I had a wonderful relationship even as a child. If you’re interested, I shared one extraordinary experience with Him in the comments section of the post linked below.
http://blogforthelordjesuscurrentevents.wordpress.com/2012/04/11/the-right-way-to-pray-nytimes-com/
Finally, there are different responsibilities at different times for every person of the Trinity as you perfectly showed above, Khan. And yes, one day “when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to him, that God may be everything to every one” (1 Cor 15:28). We have one God – where’s our problem? 🙂
Love,
Susanne
Let me explain you Christianity & Trinity. In the beginning was word with god than word was god so god the father, god the son & god the holy ghost (where it came don’t ask me, leave it as a mystery) = 3 persons = 1 god = trinity = nowhere in bible. It is not 1+1+1=3 but 1x1x1=1 but this to happen all ones need to be exactly the same meaning no need of 3 ones, in which case 1 is enough. Father god created a man Adam but the man sinned (& so whole future humanity came under curse) so father god needed someone perfect to pay with his blood for atonement (a pagan roman practice), though father god could have forgiven the sins! So in AD = 0, father god begat son jesus god (Romans had sons of god) but was actually god (though had a beginning and end) because jesus was I AM before i.e. god himself. Then father god crucified son god jesus using jews & romans for actually father gods mistake but since he was smarter, son god jesus had to pay the price. But remember trinity? – They are actually the same that means father god sacrificed son god – meaning HIMSELF! Now jesus also resurrected (because jesus god died as a man not as a god, u know gods cannot die!) & was seen floating around (you call it resurrection! – consult a dictionary for a better understanding of the word) to some people especially Mary Magdalene (who was she to jesus god? Good question), before ascending to father god. Jesus last words on crucifix were “O God O God why have u forsaken me” (although like Schwartznagger the Terminator he should have said – I’LL BE BAAACK!!!). Now jesus son god sacrifice does NOT REVERSE the original curse in totality because only Christians are saved meaning sacrifice was not equal – if it is equal there will be no need of CHRISTIANITY. Where was god the holy ghost? Good question? So who is JESUS god? – half man half god? – NO CANNOT BE, full man full god i.e. a HYBRID? (Combination of eternal with mortal?) because father god is Alpha & Omega meaning with no beginning & no end. But jesus & holy ghost gods had beginnings but jesus god had a end but jesus god was word before & I AM even before that, so WHO IS HE REALLY??? He is son of man, lamb of god, son of god, HYBRID (either ½ man ½ god or full god full man), I AM, 3 in 1, 1 in 3, god in flesh, flesh in god, god himself & MUCH MORE. CAPITO…….? Piece of cake…..!
Max,
You left this exact comment about 20 times. I deleted them all except this one and blocked you from further commenting. That is called comment spam, and I am not even sure I should leave this comment. It sounds like pure gibberish to me.
I guess it’s kind of like Khan Majeed and MaxAlfredo – two different persons writing essentially the same ! In a sense, they are the same person; yet they are different. Confusing!
Ha! yes. My thoughts exactly. Confusing!
You are well read! Thanks for the Tertullian quote and the one from The Cloud of Unknowing. Both are great quotes.
“The only way a non-relational God would decided to create being to love and take care of was if He recognized that without other beings in the universe, He was lacking or deficient in some way.” Then it follows that the only reason other sentient beings, us for example and perhaps some other mammals, create or procreate is because they feel lacking or deficient in some way. I don’t think this is true. A creator creates because that is what creators do.
And if God is love then by definition he doesn’t require an object to love so he wouldn’t need to be in love or in relationship. Electricity doesn’t need a light bulb to be energy.
Also Jesus as Jew would not have believed in the Trinity.
And finally historically isn’t it true the Trinity was not formally adopted as Christian doctrine until the 4th century CE?
Thank you for reading.
Randy,
Yes, maybe I wasn’t as careful as I should have been about why God created. Yes, God creates because that is what creators do. But why did God create relational beings? Partly, because He is relational. He could have just created stars and trees and rocks, and still been true to His creative side.
As for when the Trinity was formally adopted, yes, you probably have the date about right. But this doesn’t mean it wasn’t believed before then. That was only the time when it was voted in as a “creed” of the church.
Recently the mathematics fraternity have been revisiting the theory of infinity.
Previously they believed it did not exist, now thry do as one of them, I have
forgotten his name, have proved there is mathamaticly.
I believe in the trinity and I feel Jeremy has got about as near as a human
mind can in proving it exists.
Without these facets of God I would have no notion of what a Father is like
and have no idea what sacrificial unconditional brotherly love was about
or the power of blood sanctification of that love.
All other gods according to the men who follow them make demands and offer
nothing in return.
Yes there can be and only ever will be one God and can only be Triune.
I didn’t know this about infinity. Interesting. I will have to look it up. You are right about the main difference between our God and other gods. The God revealed in Jesus gives of Himself while all other gods ask us to give to them. Great, great point.
The current conception of the trinity was adopted in 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicaea, after centuries of often heated debate over the nature of God and the divinity of Jesus. The Wikipedia article on Trinity is informative, and includes a symbolic depiction of the idea.
Jesus’ message of the Kingdom of God being present and accessible ‘from within’ was greatly misunderstood from the beginning. People weren’t looking for personal enlightenment and responsibility, but for redemption from political repression. The early ‘church fathers’ were trying to reconcile Jesus’ fully realized divinity with his humanity. They didn’t understand that Jesus was teaching that each person, being made ‘in the image of God’, has divine potential. Instead, they went through theological contortions to stress and promote their preferred concepts of original sin and messianic redemption, and to fit literal interpretations of scriptures that were in large part allegorical.
That is not to deny the fact of original sin. The sins of the parents – not just the father – are indeed visited upon the children, resulting in all sorts of neurotic behavior, as we see to this day. The only way to break that chain is through pure, selfless love, which Jesus displayed perfectly, constantly and without fail to even the most evil of his persecutors. He hated the sins but loved the sinners unconditionally. That didn’t make him God in a way that is unattainable for us ‘mere mortals’. On the contrary, it was the way, the truth and the light on the road to redemption for all of mankind.
Perhaps a more fully developed and easier understood statement of the trinity would be “God the parent (the creative force, encompassing both male and female, and thus beyond gender), God the child (the divine potential within each human being, and perhaps within any conscious being to some degree), and God the Holy Spirit (divine love). Three different aspects of God (the ground and source of all being, ultimately beyond description and comprehension).
In the graphic symbol shown in the Wikipedia article, the relational arms labeled ‘is’ would be more clearly shown as ‘is of’. That is much easier to understand, and is not out of line with basic beliefs of most of the world’s other religions.
Jeremy, as usual you did an excellent job of discussing a difficult subject. With all due respect, though, I find your second point about a relational God to be somewhat unsatisfactory because it is limited to four-dimensional terms of time and space. Yet time and space are our only frames of reference in this world, in which we can only see as “through a glass (in a mirror), darkly.”
Lutek your explanation is more in line with what I have read about the historical context of Jesus, Judaism in the 1st century and the development of Christian doctrine by man.
Yes. Isn’t all discussion about God and the Trinity lacking and unsatisfactory?
As you say, we can only see through a glass dimly.
I WILL DEFINE GOD FOR YOU
وَ لَمۡ یَکُنۡ لَّهّ کُفُوًا اَحَدٌ لَمۡ یَلِدۡۙ وَ لَمۡ یُوۡلَدۡ اَللّٰہُ الصَّمَدُ قُلۡ هُوَ اللّٰہُ اَحَدٌ حِیۡمِبِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّ
Say: God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; God He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none comparable unto Him.
OR THE SHAMA OF ISRAEL; O PEOPLE OF ISRAEL YOUR LORD GOD IS ONE GOD
Wow, Khan, I don’t get your explanation of Christianity at all. I think you’re trying to point out some inconsistencies in common Christian beliefs, and I probably agree with at least some of your points, but it’s hard to get clear on what you’re saying through the anger and insults.
A question on your second post, though. It’s from the Koran, isn’t it?
One definition of beget is to bring into being, or produce. If “God begetteth not,” where did you and I and the rest of creation come from?
Dear Lutek,
These are not mere inconsistencies – they are major deviations to Gods rules. These could result in spending eternity either in hell or heaven – A VERY BIG IMPLICAITON.
You do not seem to understand the conceptual part of it although looks like you can have great depth of details.
Making God in 3 and saying 1. Making an eternal God (without beginning and end) into business of pro-creation (a business of animals) IS SERIOUS CONCEPTUAL DEVIATION !!!
God created us – read the bible
Khan,
This is your first and only warning. I had to edit your comment because of the nasty tone you used in writing it. You are free to disagree, but people who comment on my blog must refrain from name-calling and other such abusive behavior. If you persist, you will be blocked.
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
What does this verse means?
Khan, you haven’t answered any of our questions about God or Allah, or about love.
By asking the question about begetting I simply wanted to show how a word may mean one thing to one person, but a different thing to someone else. I know that God is the creator – the begetter of the universe and all things in it. Begetter in this case does not mean in a sexual sense, though of course God created sexual union as well as everything else. A business of animals, as you say, but we human animals also have been gifted with spiritual natures, which adds a completely different quality to that experience. But that is a whole other topic.
Yes, I could come up with another interpretation of John 3:16. It would be a more symbolic interpretation, similar in ways, but different from the literal one. Again, words may have different meanings, depending on the context in which they are used. I could be wrong, and I could be right. It is not a matter of trying to fool God, but trying to more fully comprehend God.
For that same reason some of us have asked you questions about your own conception of God. You haven’t answered them yet. Maybe you are still considering them. I’ll ask them again in somewhat different words.
Is God angry, or loving? Is he ‘out there’ somewhere, waiting to pounce on us all for being so wicked or stupid, or does he call gently to each of us from within our own hearts? Is he more interested in punishing and destroying us, or in nourishing us with love to grow more virtuous and healthier in spirit? Should we fear him, or enjoy the warmth of his love?
Come to think of it, we could ask the same questions about Satan as well. Personally, I believe that both God and Satan speak to us through our ‘inner voices’ or thoughts. But if we keep in mind that God is love, or as the Koran puts it, Allah is the merciful and compassionate, it’s easy to tell whose voice we are hearing.
I would really like to know your thoughts on any or all of what I’ve written, especially about love and compassion being the most important. Take your time and think it over, before you reply. There’s no hurry. I don’t mean to insult you or make you angry in any way. I’m just trying to see if we can come up with a basis for a common understanding of God.
when im asked to define the trinity i point people to…john 14/15/16…& then tell them to also read john 17 too
so they can see what Jesus prayed…
shalom
mr.ddt
Jeremy ,I think you hit the nail on the head when you said in your article “But somehow, in ways beyond human comprehension, God exists in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” with emphasis on beyond human comprehension.
This is just one of many reasons why the Trinity is a man made doctrine that would not stand up in a biblical court of law. Why would God give us a doctrine without explain it? Why was Jesus never questioned on the Trinity? The apostles and Pharaisees certainly questioned him on many other things.This would have been a new concept to them
You say we can not know God??
John 17: 3 – And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Bottom line, the 3-in-one concept conjured up by the Trinity is an unknowable being. The Trinity is confusion, and that is NOT of God.
1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Emilio,
I appreciate the questions. I am not too interested in debate on the Trinity. For me, I have heard all the arguments and counterarguments, but the one that is strongest for me in favor of the Trinity is that God is love. Love requires someone to love. If God is love, then either there has always been creation for Him to love, or (my belief) the Trinity has existed in a loving relationship for all eternity. If there is no Trinity, then prior to creation there is no one for God to love, and hence, God is not eternally loving. So with what I know about Jesus, I cannot imagine a non-trinitarian God. For me, the relationship that Jesus exhibits with His Father and in reliance upon the Holy Spirit speaks of an eternal love and fellowship that they shared, and which Jesus invites us to share as well.
Anyway, just because something is beyond human comprehension, this does not mean that it isn’t true. I don’t understand God’s omniscience, but it’s true. There are numerous aspects of physics that nobody understands but which most believe are true. Read on quantum entanglement for example. Physics says that the two particles know what is happening to the other, even if they are separated by large distances. How is this possible? Nobody knows. But it’s true.
Examples could be multiplied.
I really do not see how there needs to be a trinity in order for God to be love, it seems every argument for the trinity has to be forced into His Word. With that said, I do respect you very much for your focus on love. God is love-we agree on that-and we are to be imitators of God. The older I get the more I see that loving people is a great truth that sets us free.
As far as knowing God, He sent his son Jesus Christ so that we may know the character of God, that we may know God’s heart. I know that God is loving ,kind, just, passionate, fair ,caring…Do I know how he created the heavens and the earth and the physics involved in that process? I don’t need to know that.
If the trinity were something I needed to know and understand God would have clearly explained that to all of us.
Yes, some things are clearer than others in Scripture, and we do the Bible a disservice when we try to approach it as a recipe book for our favorite theological soapbox. I think the Trinity is pretty clear in Scripture, but definitely not as clear as many other doctrines, and definitely not as clear as it could have been.
Love, as well as the relational aspect of the dynamic between the three is exactly why i believe there is NO trinity! I believe a trinitarian view DULLS the concept of love, relationship, and the sacrifice on the cross, rather than illustrating it. God is not in some self-serving relationship with…”Himself”, but rather three distinct beings, all serving the same purpose. There is a hierarchy, clearly outlined by scripture and even Jesus himself-not to show which one has more “power” or which is more important- but to illustrate relationship.
So do you believe in tri-theism? That there are three gods?
When I see people arguing about the trinity, I wonder if they have not read (Gen 1:26, Matt 28:18-19, John 14). God said, let us make man in our own image (Gen 1:26). Who was he talking to?. Jesus spoken unto his disciples, go ye into the world, preaching to all nations; baptising them in the name of Thy Father and of the Son and of the Holy spirit. He said in John 14, I and the Father are one, and also, who ever have seen Me have seen the Father. What those it mean to you? Who say their is not trinity. And again in the baptism of Jesus, the spirit of God descended on the head of Jesus and the God the Father spoke, this is my Beloved son. This alone have shown that there are three person in one God. Pls try also and read about Saint Augustine encounter with God trying to think about the trinity. Thanks for reading.
There is rather little of actual Bible text in your attempts to define the Trinity. Why not start with the central confession and definition of God in Deut. 6:4. God is a single Lord, one divine Person.
Jews have always known this, and the oracles of God were entrusted to them, Paul said. Jesus showed himself to be entirely in agreement with a friendly Jew in Mark 12:29. This should settle all argument, but tradition swamps the truth! “Do we not all have one Father? Has not One God created us?” Malachi 2:10. That summarizes the evidence “God” in the Bible never ever means a Triune God. Jesus is the Son of God as defined precisely by Luke 1:35.
Act 7:56
“And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”
Stephen only saw God and Jesus, no one else.
You will never see the Holy Spirit on the left hand side of God because the Holy Spirit is the power of God. Holy Spirit is sometimes refer to as a Person but it is actually the power of God.
It is God’s power and hence it must be treated with respect too.
Jesus is the begotten Son of God long before he became flesh. This mean that God beget Jesus, this also means Jesus has a beginning but he is born from God not created unlike the angels.
Trinity cause many problems and confusions.
If your church teach trinity, you can try to point them in the right direction. It is not necessary to leave the church if they preach trinity as the core value is Jesus is the head of the church.
Jesus Christ Is God Incarnate.
Quoting from Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23 says, “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” According to both of these verses, Jesus was “God with us” when He walked upon this earth. He wasn’t merely “God’s chosen one with us” or “God’s Son with us.” As I Timothy 3:16 states, “God was manifest in the flesh.” John 1:14 tells us that “the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…” In Zechariah 12:10, GOD said that HE (God) would be “pierced” by sinners, and Revelation 1:7 states that Jesus Christ Himself fulfilled this prophecy! Micah 5:2 states that Jesus Christ is “from everlasting”, which is exactly what Psalm 93:2 and Isaiah 63:16 say about God!
Jesus Christ Has Creative Powers.
John 1:1-3 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” The “Word” is the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:14; I John 1:1-3; 5:7), and John 1:3 says that all things were made by Him!
Colossians 1:16 says, “…by him were all things created…” Consider Hebrews 1:1-3: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” You see, by Jesus Christ the worlds were made, and by Jesus Christ all things are upheld. He has the power to create and sustain the universe.
The Holy Spirit is a person.
John 16
13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
The Holy Spirit isn’t a power. You can’t lie to power. Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God
Acts 5
3.But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4. Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Thanks bro Craig for the scriptures.
I participate in this discussion so that all of us will learn something.
Yes Jesus is a form of God and is equal to God.
Philippians 2:6-7
“Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality. Instead, he emptied himself by taking on the form of a servant, by becoming like other humans, by having a human appearance”
Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God not an individual Person
Matthew 10:20
“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.”
God made use of angels to represent Him.
Judges 13:21-22
When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Jesus has already said many times he is begotten (procreate) from God.
Yes Jesus exist long before the creation and participate in the creation of the earth.
John 1 :18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
The most glaring flaw of trinity is God, Son and Holy Spirit are equal but their works are not equal.
Jesus does all the manual labors and suffer on the cr0ss from 9am to 3pm.
The Holy Spirit has to stay inside us.
So what did God the father do?
Trinity does not bring glory to the Father.
It will be very embarrassing when we see God and Jesus when the time come and everybody was like glancing around and then God and Jesus look at us and ask “Are you looking for somebody?”
There are many difficult verses in the bible.
It is always good to mediate on the bible verses and ask God for wisdom who will give it gladly.
God blessed.
1 Timothy 3:16 says God was manifest in the flesh. Who was God manifest in the flesh?
John 1:1 says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
John 1:14 says the Word (who was God) was made flesh.
John 15:26, 16:7, 8, 13, and 14 refer to the Holy Spirit as he.
Zechariah 12
8. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Note the LORD says “they shall look upon me whom they have pierced”. When was the LORD pierced?
John 19
33. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Revelation 1
5. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6. And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
The LORD shall stand upon the mount of Olives
Zechariah 14
3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
When will the LORD stand upon the mount of Olives?
Acts 1
9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day’s journey.
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures
The word Trinity is not in the Bible as such. Tertullian declared it to be a doctrine in the third century. The Bible does speak about the Godhead. God is our Father and He is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In John 4: 23-24 Jesus says, God is Spirit. Is God’s Spirit then also the same as God? I know the Bible shows clearly various functions in the Godhead, God the Father as the highest Authority; He has a Son, Jesus Christ also called the Son of God, the Redeemer, paying the price to Satan for our full redemption. Jesus confirmed His glorification by sending God’s Spirit to be earth. He dwells in all believers, who have received Him. God is One, echad! One is not three. We believe in One God. Is it not simply, God, the Father, having His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ and being Spirit, He sent His very Life into our beings? What do you think about it?