It has been three years since I graduated from seminary, and six years since I entered.
I still remember that my number one fear about going to seminary was a fear of freezing to death. Not physically, but spiritually. Many seminarians become cold and rigid. They have all the right answers, but none of the right life. I did not want that to happen to me.
A funny thing happened to me though.
I was so intent on warding off the cold, I think I might have burned up. …Or burned out. …Or something else I haven’t figured out yet. I’m not sure what happened. I didn’t freeze to death, but I did die. Who I was when I went in to seminary is not the same person who came out.
Many days, I am still not sure that this is a good thing.
All the learning I received (and rejected) in Seminary did something to me, and I’m still not exactly sure what it was. Some days it seems like a resurrection. Other days more like a burial.
I keep on waiting for the light to appear so that I can figure it out, but so far, nothing has shown up.
So I’ve decided to become a little more proactive. How am I going to do this?
I am going to do something I was never able to do in seminary: think about what I was taught.
I have dozens of notebooks full of class notes from Seminary. I am going to blog through some of them, thinking critically about the lessons, and asking the questions here on this blog that I never had the courage or time to ask in class.
One of problems with seminary is that you get so much information in so little time, it is impossible to process or reflect upon any of it. This is especially true when you are also working a full-time job as I was. So blogging through seminary is going to allow me to process what I was taught, and reflect upon it in a way that I was able to do before.
And since I don’t have professors to please this time around, I will allow myself to be critical in ways that I could not previously afford. I can ask the heretical questions, challenge the long-held traditions, or maybe even agree with something.
One other benefit is that it should help me on my Imperative Theology writing project (forthcoming). I think that before I launch into a writing project like that, I need to analyze what I have already learned.
If this sounds insanely boring,… TOO BAD. It’s my blog. I can write what I want.
Just kidding! …Well, kind of. The Writer’s Manifesto by Jeff Goins encouraged me to do this. But it is not the only thing I am going to write about. I will still be writing other topics of interest, and will also be making regular posts from my book-in-the-works, Close Your Church for Good.
I will begin by considering the topic of theology itself. Is it good? Is it bad? Can we live without it?
How about you? Have you been to Bible College or Seminary? What was your experience? What happened to you as a result? Are you glad you went? If you didn’t go, would you like to? Why or why not?
Jeremy
I always appreciate your honesty and sincerity. I graduated from Southeastern Seminary last May, and I have to say that I loved it. All of my professors were top-notch scholars and truly humble people who created a great learning environment. My goals upon entering seminary were to become a better reader and writer, learn to read the Hebrew/Greek Bible, and prepare myself to be able to teach. While I’m certainly not great in any of these areas, I’ve definitely made progress thanks to my time at SEBTS. I agree with you in that you make your own education, sometimes in spite of the “education.”
I had many great profs, but I became quite jaded in seminary. I am still trying to figure out why. I was a pastor before I went in and I think I was hoping for something that would make me a better pastor, but just the opposite happened. Did you have pastoral experience before seminary? Are you a pastor now?
I was actually teaching high school physics before and during my time in seminary. My reason for going to seminary was to be able to eventually teach high school bible classes. Ultimately, I would like to continue my studies in a phd program, but we’ll see what the future holds:)
I am glad you have something to fall back on. I always wish I had a degree in something other than Bible and Theology. I think this is wise for people to have before they go to seminary or go into ministry.
Have you been able to teach some Bible classes?
Not yet. I’m just waiting for some doors to open up now.
hmm, I’m formulating my own thoughts about Bible school/seminary that will be posted within the next few weeks on my own blog.
I thought I wanted what seminary could offer, there was this elusive ‘academia’ that I wanted to be a part of – to learn and bounce ideas around. I attended a Torchbearer Bible school and the focus is not on academics, rather than personal journey and relationship – something I realized is lacking in Christian academics.
Last year, I took a course, OT Theology. It was a test of sorts, so see if I wanted to pursue a degree in theology. I was disgusted with the process (although I liked the class). Students, who are our future pastors and ministry workers, were learning how to read the prof, not the Bible.
Original thought is not encouraged, nor applauded. After my first paper I handed in, I realized that I write vastly different than ‘professional’ students. By the time I finished my final paper, I had caught on and received an A- but I’m not going back. School can’t teach me anything about God that the Holy Spirit can’t impart, except maybe how to write a paper.
Yes, many professors (but not the best ones!) only want what they believe regurgitated back at them. If you questions or challenge, you fail the class.
I will have to come over and check out your series. Let me know when it begins!
Boy, isn’t that the truth. I’ve been looking to attend a good, solid, correspondance and/or campus seminary. I asked some questions,with a few comments that the president of the seminary took as heritical. He responded with an overwhelmingly rude reply, and told me to go somewhere else. I’ve been so bummed since receiving his reply, feeling I’ve been so disillusioned with those desiring to impart God’s truth. I’ve hoped for a friend/mentor at a seminary, but have only experienced the opposite. I’m just about ready to end my pursuit of seminary and be satisfied with my own personal study. I can’t tell you have I’ve been hurt by those in higher learning institutions who, instead of coming along side you and discussing issues, only respond with anger, and a rude defensive tone.
Yes, that happened to me once. Schools want their students to sit and listen, not ask questions, and then graduate and not question what they were taught but only regurgitate it.
If you want to go to seminary, keep looking. There are others out there…
Jeremy,
Great post. I am looking forward to seeing where you go with this. I have known many that went to seminary, and nearly all of them were changed, but not for the better. Some became complete agnostics, some became extreme legalists, and a few even came back and split our church to start a church of their own.
Lately, I have felt the need to get more bible education, and I have been looking at some of the Free Grace Seminaries, including our friend Tim at Rocky Mountain. I really believe that I have good reasons for wanting to go to learn more about the bible and gain tools for teaching others, but I am also worried. I cannot point to a single person who had a truly positive experience attending seminary, and only one or two who were changed in a positive way.
I am watching with keen interest the things that you share here and I hope to be able to work through them with you.
Your Brother In Christ,
FedEx,
President,
Men of Praise Ministries
I am kind of looking forward to see where I go with this too! Ha! I just finished my post for tomorrow, and am a little nervous about it. It is not at all what I had in mind when I wrote this post here.
But when I pulled out my seminary notes today to review them, the first thing that came to mind is what I wrote for my post tomorrow.
We’ll see how it goes!
Tim is great, and very scholarly, and not afraid to be questioned or challenged. Did he not have a good experience in seminary?
Jeremy,
I will have to ask Tim that, it has really never come up. I can’t imagine though, he tends to think outside too many boxes.
Right now I am looking at balancing my life, family, business, ministry, and going to seminary. I really like Rocky Mountain, and they are just a few miles from my office, but I am also considering an online degree as well.
Your Brother In Christ,
FedEx,
President,
Men of Praise Ministries
My best friend in college (we were both Bible and theology majors) was conservative GARBC (Baptist). We spent hours almost every evening discussing theology, and, as we neared graduation, seminaries.
He strongly considered DTS, because of its good academic reputation. But that very conservative Baptist decided DTS was too legalistic, fundamentalist and narrow-minded, and chose a more liberal seminary. I chose a conservative seminary, but it was not as conservative as DTS.
My impression was that most seminaries are designed to pump out graduates that promulgate the “company line”. It’s almost like going to McDonalds’ hamburger university (or whatever they call it) to learn how to run a McDonalds that looks like and functions like all other McDonalds.
I didn’t hate or love seminary. I was given tools and access to resources that had an unintended effect on me – I learned to read something other than the official company propaganda and learned to think for myself (although I’ve always kind of done that). Jeremy, could it be that is what happened to you?
One of my seminal moments in seminary was the day I my ethics prof returned a paper I had written which would be a major part of my grade for the class. He gave me an “A” and wrote something similar to “Well researched and well thought out. Even though I tend to see this differently, you presented a convincing argument.” I almost cried. The prof was Mr. straight-laced, Mr. conservative. My paper? – “Why abortion should be Legal and Freely Available To Everyone”. My prof was a wise man. (By the way, I did not believe what the paper argued, but the prof did not know that.)
You heretic!
Just kidding…Though my mom was the President of National Right to Life in Montana for a few years….
Anyway, yes that is exactly what happened to me. I could not toe the party line. I challenged one of my professors in the first week of class, and had to go visit the dean about it. I would sit in class and could not believe the awe that some of the students had for the professors and what they were saying. I became very jaded and angry, which was not good.
I’m glad I got my degree, and I learned a lot, but I wish I could come up with a way to freely pass on the information to those who want it, but don’t have the time or money to go to seminary for it.
One of my Thesis advisers thinks I have become a heretic now. I only got my Thesis through because he didn’t have time to read it! Later he told me that if he had read it before I graduated, he would not have let it pass because he disagreed with my conclusions! Ha! Oh well.
Wow, this actually sounds like it would be really amazing. I’ve toyed with the idea of going to seminary just to further my own personal edification, but I decided on just researching and reading the material in my own time at my own pace (and without tuition).
Looking forward to this!
Well, I hope I can fulfill your expectations. I will try to provide a balance of what I learned with some of my criticisms.
Having taken a number of seminary classes and studying online( still)
continued,..as well as a latecomer to Christ with LOTS! of life experience, being actually involved in people’s lives does much to ratify what you have learned and believe or,…expose much academic ivory tower bs. Find the application by helping someone in need. I can testify mightly to the the applied veracity of 1Tim4:11-16 especially verse 16 Be blessed!ps Ecc12;12-13
Elias,
You stole my thunder. I will be making a post on this very subject tomorrow.
Hey Jeremy, sounds like your time at seminary was a pretty crazy period for you. I can understand what you’re saying as I have many friends who’ve had similar experiences. As for myself, I finished seminary about 14 years ago and have recently gone back to further my studies. For me it’s been exactly the opposite of what you describe… hopefully this might mean we can have some great interaction about the various topics you’re going to bring up in your posts as your blog your way through seminary. I’m looking forward to it!!
Rich,
I LOVED Bible college. I actually learned less in seminary than I did in Bible college. But that’s a story for another day…
You’re recovering from seminary; I’m recovering from being part of an authoritarian “family of churches” and going through a similar process. I recently stumbled upon your blog somehow and have been enjoying reading it. Looking forward to your future posts!
Marge,
We are all recovering from something, it seems! ha!
It’s true that in seminary one often lacks the time to reflect upon the data overload that comes your way. One of my professors there cautioned us at the beginning of our junior year: “It will be like drinking water from a fire hydrant” and he was absolutely right. I value the theological education I received, but I would value even more the opportunity to go back over it again and try to process it some more.
David,
Yes, I heard that analogy about the fire hydrant also, and felt it all the time.
A seminary education takes a few years. Processing it takes a lifetime.
Seminary is an individual journey, in that one’s experience with seminary is dependant on who you are, your expectations, ambition, and what are your goals; the list could go on. I’ve attempted to test the waters, so to speak to find my niche. I’ve attended a satellite on campus class, taken an online class, and am taking correspondance courses. I’m not looking for a big career move; only to be used as the best equipped for God’s service. Personally I don’t enjoy typing class papers; that being said I don’t mind digging and answering questions. Therefore, my best overall experience (at this point) has been with the correspondance courses.
Mick
Mick,
Great! I think if you have a career, and are not looking to rush through seminary in order to get to your career, you will be able to take the classes more slowly, and process them better, and even apply what you learn to your life and career. This approach will be invaluable for you.
I saw you link to this post on Twitter this morning, and when I read it, it made me smile. Seminary also changed me, but for the better. However, I also never finished seminary, for various reasons. The time I took classes though, was great, because I had a lot of questions and I was actually finally getting some answers. I was reading things that made me think “hey! Other people have wondered what I have wondered!” I obviously had a very different experience than you did!
Kelly,
I was a bit hard on seminary in this post. I also changed for the better in seminary… but not necessarily in ways that the seminary hoped for. Seminary was a painful and trying time for me, but I came through it… as one tried by fire! Ha. But seriously, it taught me some things I probably never would have learned elsewhere. Also, I only have my current job because of seminary.
Jeremy – sounds like my Seminary experience may have been a little different than yours. Although I certainly did come out of there bruised up by the thinking that Christianity is all about the head (its not, although Jesus does want Lordship over our mind as much as he wants our heart & soul). At Fuller, disagreeing with your Professors wasn’t really frowned upon (although sometimes I felt like being a conservative was). Asking the hard questions was considered part of the process, not something to be discouraged. Although I came out of Seminary with as many questions as answers, it challenged me to know what I believed and why I believed it (even if it was different from what the Professor believed) – in that way it was certainly a success for me. I’m still recovering from some of the rigid intellectualism though (as evidenced by my Paper on “A Hermeneutic for Devotional Reading of Scripture.” Keep pursuing Him with all your heart, soul & mind!
Thanks, Brad. I was at Dallas Theological Seminary, and I think they and Fuller are on different ends of the spectrum on some things. I am glad your experience was somewhat different than mine.
I was in my sophomore year of college when I was saved, and being an artist, struggled immensely with how I was to proceed. Of course I got asked to paint Jesus upside down while the band played, and the nativity at Christmas. I was briefly thrilled to be asked to be the arts director, and wrote a well received play ala ‘I am Second’, but was replaced within months by a pro they brought in from another country. Dropped out of school and started a biz, had to do something to support myself, did it for 10 years, didn’t like what I did but I liked the relationships I created. Then sold it, and finally finished my degree this year. Right before I did that however, I was visiting seminaries and Bible colleges. All of which told me I’d have to start all over with a bachelor degree, because my secular college classes wouldn’t transfer. But i was told, get the BA from where you were going, and come back to apply for a Masters program. I don’t know how to make this a short story, so bear with me? Ha I’m in my mid 30s now, and going back into college debt seems like an idiot move. So I thought, I don’t Need a theology degree, I just want the education. I want something to build upon, to know how to study, write a Bible study, and share what I learn competently. I’ve looked into these DTS schools, ywam and the like, although there are hundreds out there. But they all rather strike me as good for only working within their organization or denomination. That bothers me a lot. Of course, it seems you can’t simply do much of anything in the church without a degree anymore. Granted, I’ve seen some who taught young adults who didn’t actually know much of anything and joked entirely too much from the pulpit that I was embarrassed. I’ve come to know what I want to do as ‘people ministry’: leading people to Christ, to repentance, to taking up their cross… conversion, spiritual growth, equipping for ministry… but the whole basic “Go and make disciples” mission directive of Jesus seems so lost on your average church. They’re all about it when a speaker comes and they can give and support a missionary family, but if you, who are a cherished pew sitter and tither and our a/v tech, lawn mower and chair stacker wants to grow in Christ and rise to the occasion… shh, sit down, you’re rocking the boat. I just don’t know what to say anymore. My gripe is that churches seem disinterested in making disciples, or they think they are already, what with a Bible study for an hour every Tuesday night and a fellowship dinner after service on Sunday. And that has opened the door to these third party DTS organizations providing what your church won’t do. Apprenticeship is what it seems to come down to, and in the West that’s all but dead. So I guess we can’t relate anymore and instead have made it a pay-to-play proposition. We should all weep. But accepting that as our lot, despite that were protestants and departed the evil money changing gatekeepers, here we are again. Any way, I don’t seem to get a straight answer about whether Seminary or a DTS or Bible College is really worthwhile. In particular, which of these institutions is worth their salt? Every one I’ve looked to has a long line of graduated who feel slighted or aren’t doing much afterwards. And if your goal was to be a missionary, but you’re steeped in education debt, that’s so sad. So where do I go from here? I’m just frustrated, and I wish I weren’t. Seems I’m constantly told, If you’re really serious, you’ll pay up the 40k for seminary, or you should consider that ministry may not be for you. I find that outrageous. I’ve just wanted someone to work with me, help me explore the options, but I’m just met with a shrug. Your feedback is quite welcome. Thanks for listening.
Ok — I went to seminary 30? 30-something years ago. I pretty much lost my faith there. And I”m going to think about it some more and get back to this. It was devastating really — but good came from it although much of that good was incidental (as in, unrelated to actual seminary). but later — thanks for asking this question!
I stumbled on your blog somehow through twitter. I live in Texas but I grew up in Michigan in a fundamental independent baptist (authoritarian) church. I then went on to college in wisconsin at a fundamental independent baptist Bible college.
It wasn’t until this fall that I REALLY started questioning the extent of what I believed and how I have interpreted the Bible all my life.
Religion like what I experienced, interpreted through my mindsets and perceptions, creates immense guilt and religious trauma. Counseling and blogs like yours and podcasts etc have helped me start to sort things out. And the more I read the more I realize I do not know and I am learning that it’s ok to not have an answer. The religion I grew up in had all the answers. everything was black and white. That’s not reality. That’s been a hard thing to break up with.
Thanks for sharing all this. I seem to always be reading something on your blog lately. 🙂
I still believe in God – but I am learning he is not the God I thought he was – THANK GOD! ;).
@kimbermc19 (my twitter)
I enjoyed my education at both Liberty Theological Seminary and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I am a life long learner and enjoy research, studying, and writing. However, I am now 68 years old and would love to continue my education in order to keep my mind active but the cost is outrageous. Are there any seminaries where you can work on a doctoral degree or a second master’s degree that offers discounts to senior citizens. I am much to old to take out a student loan, plus I am debt free. I have been in ministry for years serving as a corporate chaplain. I do not care if it is an accredited school or not. Thank you.
Well, lookit that; my old seminary…
A quick chronology as background: raised Roman Catholic; heard the Gospel and believed at 19; started Bible college at 21; married; became an associate pastor at 23; graduated college, served as pastor for another 6 years; had varying degrees of entrenchment in Bill Gothard teachings for a few years (just enough to do damage); attended DTS ’89-’91; resumed pastoral ministry for another 19 years; quit pastoral ministry in 2011 because of burnout; have 3 adult children, two of home reject the faith and consider their religious upbringing to be quite harmful; retired from everything now except playing guitar in my church’s worship band. Went on disability in 2015 for chronic pain. I’m 64.
SO…as Dr. Swindoll said, it takes the average seminary graduate 5 years to get over his education. I’ve been learning and re-learning since forever, and lately I’ve been asking fundamental questions on fundamental issues. Boiled down: What do we think we know, and why do we think we know it?
The doctrine of eternal conscious torment was the crowbar that first pried open my skeptical mind. Lately I’ve read your book (thanks!) and others, and it’s got me going back to try to find the truly “what the Surpreme Being really said” answers to all of my haunting questions. I’m getting the idea that a high percentage of those answers will not be forthcoming, so I’m learning what it means to trust and follow an invisible God who seems unpredictible while the rest of life is also unpredictible.
Jeremy, I just attended a bible study based on your 6 denials of Peter and his restorations. Good points and food for thought regarding 77×7 forgiveness of self , enemies and not doing it our own way. I feel perhaps it is unfortunate you had not a professor who discussed when the books of the New Testament were written and in what order. I witness vs testimony of hearing the witness himself. John was the only Eye witness to the denial and restoration events, and In Revelation the Lord asks him to write about what he had seen. Rev1:19, why? cause an eye witness account was needed. Mark Matthew Luke and John by direction of the Lord, It is obvious John needed to clear up a few points. Like the identity of Jesus is chp 14. Ask the Holy Spirit and He will lead you into all Truth, it is the promise given in John by the Lord. John 14:25
I appreciate your honesty in this. I am a current student at DTS and while I started out on fire for the Lord, my relationship has run definitely run cold. I am 6 years in, during which I worked mostly full time, moved 4 times, got married, then divorced due to emotional abuse, changed churches a few times and still in search of a new one now. With 2 semesters left to go, I am feeling so overwhelmed and burnt out, yet determined to push my way to finish line. I have so much knowledge yet I grieve the closeness I once felt with the Lord. I wholeheartedly agree that there is not enough time to process through all that you learn. I came across your blog while searching for thoughts on seminary to see if it was just a “me” thing or if how I am feeling is normal. Thank you for writing and sharing with others that feeling this way is not abnormal,