I attended a Mormon church last Sunday. I haven’t really had time to write about it much because I worked 15-16 hour days on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. I took Thursday and Friday off, and then I go back to work on Saturday. In many ways, my wife feels like a single mother, so please pray for us.
Anyway, after attending the Mormon church with my co-worker, below are a few of my initial observations as gleaned through my own personal conversations:
- I am amazed that Mormonism is so popular since in many ways, their style of “worship” service is nearly identical to that of fundamental Baptists. They only use the King James Version, they pray using words like “thee,” “thy,” and “thou,” all the men come dressed is slacks and ties, and the entire morning lasted three hours, with a heavy emphasis on extended times of teaching. Since fundamental Baptists are seeing a rapid decline in attendance, but Mormons are on the rise, what is it about Mormonism that people find attractive?
- Theologically, Mormonism does not seem to be as “wacked out” as some Christian critics portray them to be. In fact, when it comes to the doctrine of salvation, I could easily argue that Mormons are just as orthodox as many “evangelical protestants,” specifically in regard to the role of good works in salvation (in other words, they base it partly on their own works). Also, there are many similarities between a Mormon’s view of Joseph Smith and other groups within “Christendom” (e.g. Catholics and some Charismatics) who believe in some sort of apostolic succession or ongoing prophetic additions to Scripture.
- They believe they are the one true church, and all others are in apostasy to one degree or another. They believe that Joseph Smith restored correct practice and doctrine as it was originally taught by Jesus Christ and Paul. Again, this idea is not unique to Mormons, as there are many groups and teachers who think they have a corner on the truth, and everybody else is in error.
- There are, of course, serious problems with Mormon theology and practice. For example, they don’t really believe in the Trinity the way most evangelical Christians do, and they don’t seem to believe that Jesus was eternally God. It is probably for these reasons that they are labeled a “cult.” Also, some of the primary practices of Mormons seem to be based on obscure passages of Scripture. For example, a common Mormon practice is baptism for dead ancestors, which is based on a particular interpretation of 1 Cor 15:29.
- Most Mormons are convinced that their beliefs are correct because they had a supernatural experience which proved to them that what they believe is true. I have men many people within various brands of Christianity who argue along similar lines. It is next to impossible to convince such a person through logical reasoning and arguments that what they believe might not be true. As I have conversed with my Mormon co-workers about their faith, every time I bring up a question they don’t seem to be able to answer, they revert to talking about their experience (vision, dream, inner feeling, etc.) which proved to them the truth of what they believe, and then they tell me that if I really want to know the truth, I should pray for wisdom and ask God to give me a similar experience to reveal the truth to me.
There are numerous other things I could discuss, but these are the five that stand out to me right now. One thing I am becoming more and more convinced of is that before you go blast someones life, theology, or practice, you should not go read a book about them, but instead endeavor to become friends with someone of that group. Once you do, it will become impossible to blast them. Things are not as cut-and-dry, black-and-white as some speakers and authors would make you believe.
A thoughtful post. We do have to be careful not to caricature and demoise theological opponents.
I am so sorry that you have to work so many hours. It sounds like slavery.
May the Lord strengthen your wife.
I have a job interview next Friday. Please pray for me.
As a mormon, I just want to thank you for not being so quick to judge. That really means a lot!
Jeremy, thanks for the post. I really appreciate your fair and balanced approach to the Latter-day Saints. I specifically found your remarks that you could argue that Mormons are “just as orthodox as many ”evangelical protestants,” specifically in regard to the role of good works in salvation” to be particularly interesting given a common description by LDS critics that Mormons try to earn their salvation. Also, I found your comment refreshing that “many people within various brands of Christianity” appeal to “supernatural experience.” There are some who believe this ‘appeal to experience’ is unique to Mormonism, but I agree with you that it is not. In addition, I would also say that, often, it just takes some exposure and practice to explaining and reasoning ones faith without appealing to experience. This is something that can be learned.
I really appreciate that perspective and fully agree.
Jeremy,
What do your Mormon friends think you are doing? Do they think you are simply looking into their religion, or do they think you are interested in converting? What are your reasons for looking into it?
Hi all,
Thanks for the comments.
I probably should have stated that from what I can tell, Mormons do base their salvation on their own good works. (I’m still trying to sort out what they believe about salvation. It seems that in some ways, Mormons are somewhat close to universalists. It is a little unclear to me what happens to people who die having rejected the teachings and practices of Mormonism.) I compared their beliefs on salvation to many evangelical protestants because I am convinced that many evangelicals also base their salvation on their own good works, despite all their talk about “faith alone.”
I believe that justification is based 100% on faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, plus absolutely nothing. So when I say Mormons are just as orthodox as many evangelical protestants, I am actually saying that I think both are trying to earn their salvation.
And William…I have let them know that I am a follower of Jesus. I let them know that I used to be a pastor for five years, and that I graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary. I quickly learned that the term they “labeled” me with is “investigator.” I suppose a similar term in evangelical circles is “seeker.”
I should say that not a single one got upset at me, or tried to shun me when I started asking questions…even some hard, challenging questions.
Imagine if a Mormon showed up at your church on Sunday or in your Wednesday night Bible study and started asking questions about what you believe and why? How would the people in your church respond? I hope with grace and kindness.
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity’s theology relating to baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.
• Baptism: .
Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. http://www.imj.org.il/eng/exhibitions/2000/christianity/ancientchurch/structure/index.html
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles. Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and prohibiting non-Christians from witnessing them.
Furthermore, Eastern Orthodox for a few centuries continued the Early Christian practice of proxy baptism for deceased ancestors.
• The Trinity: .
A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?
The Nicene Creed”s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: “There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one.”
Scribes later added “the Father, the Word and the Spirit,” and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. .
Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit. Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”
Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. St. Athanasius of Alexandria (Eastern Orthodox) wrote, regarding theosis, “The Son of God became man, that we might become God.” . The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts.
• The Deity of Jesus Christ
Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS), Jesus is not only the Son of God but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 percent of American Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists (28 percent of Episcopalians) agreed that Jesus was “without sin”, 70 percent of Mormons believe Jesus was sinless. http://www.adherents.com/misc/BarnaPoll.html
• The Cross and Christ’s Atonement: .
The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D. . Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) believe the proper Christian symbol is Christ’s resurrection , not his crucifixion on the Cross. Many Mormon chapels feature paintings of the resurrected Christ or His Second Coming. Furthermore, members of the church believe the major part of Christ’s atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane as Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind.
• Definition of “Christian”: .
But Mormons don’t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. They believe Christ’s atonement applies to all mankind. The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”: All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. They all worship the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and address Him in prayer as prescribed in The Lord’s Prayer.
It’s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians. . Early Christians had certain rituals which defined a Christian http://sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070037.htm , which members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continue today. . If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology, they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.
• The Parallel with the “Rise of Christianity”
Rodney Stark in his book “The Rise of Christianity” found parallels with the rise of Mormonism:
A similar growth rate (40 percent for Christianity, and 43 percent for Mormonism) for both nascent religious movements. Conversions proceeded along social networking lines, primarily. While Christianity retained Jews’ belief in the Old Testament, Mormonism retains Creedal Christians’ belief in both the New and Old Testaments. The Romans martyred the Christian leaders, the mobs in Missouri and Illinois martyred the Mormon leaders. In both cases, they expected the fledgling movements to fail without their leaders.
• The Need for a Restoration of the Christian Church:
The founder of the Baptist Church in America, Roger Williams, just prior to leaving the church he established, said this:
“There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.” (Picturesque America, p. 502.)
Martin Luther had similar thoughts: “Nor can a Christian believer be forced beyond sacred Scriptures,…unless some new and proved revelation should be added; for we are forbidden by divine law to believe except what is proved either through the divine Scriptures or through Manifest revelation.”
He also wrote: “I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among
those who should have preserved it.”
The Lutheran, Baptist and Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) churches recognize an apostasy from early Christianity. The Lutheran and Baptist churches have attempted reform, but Mormonism (and Roger Williams, and perhaps Martin Luther) require inspired restoration, so as to re-establish an unbroken line of authority and apostolic succession.
* * *
• Christ-Like Lives:
The 2005 National Study of Youth and Religion published by UNC-Chapel Hill found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):
1. Attend Religious Services weekly
2. Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life – extremely important
3. Believes in life after death
4. Does NOT believe in psychics or fortune-tellers
5. Has taught religious education classes
6. Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline
7. Sabbath Observance
8. Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith
9. Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily
10. Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen (very supportive)
11. Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality
LDS Evangelical
1. 71% 55%
2. 52 28
3. 76 62
4. 100 95
5. 42 28
6. 68 22
7. 67 40
8. 72 56
9. 50 19
10. 65 26
11. 84 35
So what do you think the motivation is for the Evangelical preachers to denigrate the Mormon Church? You would think Evangelical preachers would be emulating Mormon practices (a creed to believe, a place to belong, a calling to live out, and a hope to hold onto) which were noted by Methodist Rev. Kenda Creasy Dean of the Princeton Theological Seminary, as causing Mormon teenagers to “top the charts” in Christian characteristics. (see http://MormonTeenagers.blogspot.com) It seems obvious pastors shouldn’t be denigrating a church based on First Century Christianity, with high efficacy. The only plausible reason to denigrate Mormons is for Evangelical pastors to protect their flock (and their livelihood).
Very thoughtful post. As someone who is LDS, I can throw my two cents’ in. I agree our worship services are very similar to the Baptists. As a child, my parents took me to a Baptist worship service (my paternal grandparents were Baptists), and I didn’t know it was any different at all until I asked a question about a scripture I knew from the Book of Mormon. The Sunday School teacher said the question was one that no one knew the answer to. Unfortunately, it’s so many years ago I don’t remember what the question was.
I am not sure this idea is fully expressed in our theology, but the idea you posed that LDS believe that Jesus was not eternally divine sounds more like the concept of eternal progression. Jesus was always clearly superior to us in that He was the only one who could live a sinless life and atone for the sins of others and through Him we can be saved. The definition of deity is a very deep question, especially because of the notion of progress, which we believe is our primary purpose on the earth – to be tried and tested, and to continue to gain in knowledge, experience, and intelligence that we will take with us when we die.
Thanks again for such a thoughtful, neutral, Christian post.
Good post
As a member of the LDS church I agree its best to find out what mormons beleive by asking a member of the church then by reading all the anti-mormon books. We are not saved by works but by grace. Works are the fruit (by their fruits ye shall know them). Mormons teach that salvation is through Jesus Christ. I recommend reading the book “Believing Christ” by Stephen E. Robinson to get a proper understanding of LDS teaching.
Thanks again for taking the time to visit an LDS church. May God bless you for all your righteous desires.
Hi Jeremy,
Very good post. You said…..
“I compared their beliefs on salvation to many evangelical Protestants because I am convinced that many evangelicals also base their salvation on their own good works, despite all their talk about “faith alone.”
(you continued….)
“I believe that justification is based 100% on faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, plus absolutely nothing. So when I say Mormons are just as orthodox as many evangelical Protestants, I am actually saying that I think both are trying to earn their salvation.”
AMEN to that!!!
This has often been on my mind regarding lots of religions….. Protestant, Catholic, Mormons, etc.
I see so much on TV about honoring God and fighting for Him to be part of our culture. I’m all for God being part of our culture, but I often wondered how much of this is honoring to God. Is God impressed with a country who lifts up “GOD” (whoever He might be)? God is glorified ONLY in Jesus Christ. So I look at Mormons as people for whom Christ died, just like all Protestants, Catholics, 7th Day Adventist, Jehovah Witness, Muslims, etc., etc. God loves all people, and He showed His love by dying for all. So when I look at Mormons, or Catholics, or Protestants, etc., I look at them as people for whom Christ died. And I want to tell them how much they are loved and how they can be accepted into God’s family through faith in Jesus Christ alone by grace.
I don’t think I said this very well. Your post just made me think about people of all religions. The only ones who will be accepted by God are those who believe in Jesus Christ alone for eternal life. And I’m glad that you are reaching out to all of them (including Mormons) to tell them.
That’s love!
Thanks Jeremy for your heart.
In Jesus’ love,
Diane
Diane,
Thanks for the comments. I completely agree. Say hello to Dale!
Hi Jeremy:
I do not agree at all with your appraisal.
Mormons do not usually fully disclose their doctrines which are repugnant, just as the Calvinists do.
I presume that you HAVE read some of their own official doctrinal literature?
They are poly theists, pure and simple. They believe in many “gods,” and further a central doctrine of Mormonism is that they can become god, just as Jesus Christ did and his father did.
The teach that Adam was God and that he had sexual intercourse with eve.
Read the “Pearl of Great Price,” and their “Doctrine and Covenants.”
They not only deny the Trinity, they deny every central doctrine of Christianity concerning God, which of course is most important.
You should not base your opinion of them by meeting some of them who may not even be privy to the doctrines of Mormonism.
A central tennant of Mormonism is:
“It is a ‘Mormon’ truism that is current among us and we all accept it, that as man is God once was and as God is man may become.”
— Elder Melvin J. Ballard
General Conference, April 1921
“From President Snow’s understanding of the teachings of the Prophet on this doctrinal point, he coined the familiar couplet: ‘As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.’ This teaching is peculiar to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.”
Marion Romney (1st Presidency)
General Conference, October 1964
“The Lorenzo Snow couplet expresses a true statement: ‘As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.'”
Seventy Bruce C. Hafen
The Broken Heart: Applying the Atonement to Life’s Experiences, 1989, p.133
“This process known as eternal progression is succinctly expressed in the LDS aphorism, ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.'”
Encyclopedia of Mormonism 4:1474
Gary
Response to your question re: The Trinity: .
A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?
The Nicene Creed”s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: “There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one.”
Scribes later added “the Father, the Word and the Spirit,” and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. .
Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit. Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts.
•A Response to your question re: Theosis
Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. St. Athanasius of Alexandria (Eastern Orthodox) wrote, regarding theosis, “The Son of God became man, that we might become God.” . The Gospel of Thomas (which pre-dates the 4 Gospels, but was considered non-canonical by the Nicene Council) quotes the Savior: He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him. (Gospel of Thomas 50, 28-30, Nag Hammadi Library in English, J.M.Robinson, 1st ed 1977; 3rd ed. 1988) The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS agrees with Athanasius and Thomas regarding theosis.
The Councils of the 4th and 5th Centuries eliminated all writings which referenced “the mysteries”. Thus, such books (even Thomas and Philip) were eliminated from the canon.
On the other hand, the simple relation between God and His Son (his only begotten) as contained in the New Testament was mystified with the incomprehensible Nicene Creed. God went from an embodied spiritual Being, the Father of Jesus Christ to an ethereal spirit, without body, parts, or passions.
Jeremy, I would again like to say that the thing I appreciate most about your post and what I wish others who visit this post would keep in mind, and learn from, is that you actually got out and attended a worship service with the Latter-day Saints to see for yourself what they believe and also that you approached the beliefs of others with charity and fairness. We need more of this civil and respectful interchange among those who have taken the time to build friendships with those of different faiths.
It is understandable that somehow the topic of Mormonism is controversial but the traditional kind of apologetics isn’t going to advance our mutual understanding. The apologetics that has been used for the last century hasn’t increased our understanding of the faith perspectives of each other. Rather, it has only promoted more animosity and misunderstanding. It would seem there are many who want to keep continuing the “debate” without looking at the results and outcome of such a debates. These kinds of religious debates can be found all over the internet: on blogs, message boards and chat rooms. We have enough of that. What is rare to find however, and what is not being done, and what we need now, is the very thing that you are advocating: to “endeavor to become friends with someone of that group” to better understand them and not some instinctive or defensive reaction to “blast someones life, theology, or practice”. Until and unless this is done we simply will never really understand each other.
Of course, one of the main problems is that there are many people who don’t want to understand each other, or they feel they already understand the religious other because some book told them what others believed or some member of their religious community did all the research for them so they wouldn’t have to do it themselves and told them what others believed. The attitude is “What’s to understand? They are wrong. End of story.” This kind of method is the very method that has lulled people into believing they actually know about others without even communicating with them and engaging them in civil discourse. However, more and more people are realizing that this hasn’t worked. I applaud your efforts and point of view and I hope that others realize the value in actually seeking to learn about others, not to learn where best to land a blow, but to learn to better understand their neighbor. I recently attended a event where a Mormon and a Baptist engaged in this kind of civil and respectful dialogue about their respective faiths and similar to your feelings I came away with the stronger conviction that we need more real dialogue and less the perpetuations of stereotypes and religious polemic.
Jeremy:
every time I bring up a question they don’t seem to be able to answer, they revert to talking about their experience (vision, dream, inner feeling, etc.) which proved to them the truth of what they believe, and then they tell me that if I really want to know the truth, I should pray for wisdom and ask God to give me a similar experience to reveal the truth to me.
You realize you’re describing a LOT of Christians, too, right?
Gary:
They are poly theists, pure and simple.
And how is this different from Christianity?
aquinas:
we need more real dialogue and less the perpetuations of stereotypes and religious polemic.
Except for atheists, against whom you need to be defended
—
I simply don’t have time to go into everything that’s wrong with Mormons Are Christian ‘s translation defense. Read Chinese-to-English-by-way-of-Korean electronics instructions, then explain to me how any translation of any language, much less dead languages, can ever be wholly accurate. After that, try to imagine a researcher in the next millenium or so trying to translate “gay”, “bad”, “cool” or “awesome” from twentieth century texts.
—
All religions are ultimately cults. Christianity was once just a Jewish cult. The success of missionaries, size of membership and wealth of treasury do not give any “religion” more legitimate claim to “truth” than Jeremiah Wright, Falun Gong or the Branch Davidians. Any religion that still seeks to be divisive or controlling still deserves the cult label.
As always, I applaud Jeremy for seeking to understand. I think he (with the help of various commenters) has illustrated, again, the differences between those who seek truth and those who claim it.
Gary:
They are poly theists, pure and simple.
Bullet: And how is this different from Christianity?
Christians beleive that there is only one God. In fact, Aquinas PROVED from first principles, which are self-evident, that God exists and that He is the God revealed in Scripture.
Gary
Gary:
Explain to me, then, Archangels, Satan and demons. If they aren’t demi-gods, then what are they? When Christians say they believe in one god, what I see is belief in one supreme god. Christians have lots of little gods running around, just like every other religion.
Plus, Aquinas PROVED nothing. His first principles were anything but self-evident. Furthermore, his whole argument for the existence of the God of Xian scripture is based upon and reinforced by the existence of the God of Xian scripture.
Aquinas was very smart, but he couldn’t prove god any more than Descartes or Aristotle could. There is no proof. That’s why it’s called FAITH.
I simply don’t understand why you people want to take something as seemingly wonderful as faith and reduce it to the mundanity of mere fact.
Hi bullet:
B: Explain to me, then, Archangels, Satan and demons.
g: God is the CREATOR. All else is created. There is but one CREATOR. God created ALL things. All things means everything. Since the very definition of words in Mormonism differ from normal usage I must be very clear. Before God created, nothing existed except God. (I use the word “before” anthropomorphically.) That is, God created all things ex nihilo. The “god” of Mormonism cannot “create,” he merely builds stuff out of preexisting material. The so called “god” of Mormonism is but some sort of “superman.” Compared to God he is nothing, in fact, the gods of Mormonism do not exist. Satan and the demons are fallen creatures. God created all things good. He gave them free will and some chose to disobey Him. That is the origin of sin.
B: If they aren’t demi-gods, then what are they?
gkm: They are mere creatures which exist by God’s mere pleasure. He upholds ALL things by the “word of His Power.”
B: When Christians say they believe in one god, what I see is belief in one supreme god. Christians have lots of little gods running around, just like every other religion.
gkm: Let Christians tell You what we believe, don’t speak for us. I have books written by Mormons which state what I say about Mormonism. But in the case of Mormonism, things are a little different, since I can quote “inspired” prophets for your doctrines.
B: Plus, Aquinas PROVED nothing. His first principles were anything but self-evident. Furthermore, his whole argument for the existence of the God of Xian scripture is based upon and reinforced by the existence of the God of Xian scripture.
gkm: I’ll not argue about what Aquinas proved. He proved it to my satisfaction. His first principles are self-evident. Have you actually read HIM?
B: Aquinas was very smart, but he couldn’t prove god any more than Descartes or Aristotle could. There is no proof. That’s why it’s called FAITH.
gkm: No. That is not true. The God that Aquinas proved MUST exist just happens to be the God described in Scripture as far as being Creator and being ONE. It is true that saving truth is REVEALED by Scripture. And the fact that God exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is reveale and not proved by Aquinas.
B: I simply don’t understand why you people want to take something as seemingly wonderful as faith and reduce it to the mundanity of mere fact.
gkm: I don’t. Faith is being convinced. Heb. 11. Saving faith is being convince of the truth that Christ is the guarantor of everlasting life to all who believe in Him for it. But since you change the meaning of most terms used by Christians, you can “say” you believe things we believe but not believe them at all.
Gary
My wife was LDS when I met her, and I am thankful now believes in Jesus Christ for eternal life, however most of her family and some friends are still LDS and we have various discussions which I try to keep focused on what we must do to have eternal life.
LDS people are sincere, and friendly, and I always try to find time to talk with them when they come to my door.
As Jeremy says, although some of what they believe is very different much is like many fundamental christian churches.
The bottom line is “what must we do to have eternal life” and that is where biblical Christianity leaves organized religion regardless of its name.
John 20:30-31
PS Hello Jeremy, long time no talk. Sorry life is keeping me way to busy as well.
What a great topic, as evidenced by the number of people weighing in, from evangelical Christians to Mormons.
I agree that we need to show respect to each other. I have a few Mormons in my life and I’ve enjoyed our faith discussions. Likewise, I’m developing a good relationship with a JW. What I found surprising was for my JW friend, her faith is strong and when I share and understand faith (not necessarily her faith), we can have frank and candid conversations.
I do find it ironic that in their faith, the men/women that make it to the highest level of heaven (celestial heaven) are people who have married – something neither Jesus or Paul did, therefore they couldn’t be in celestial heaven.
Andrea,
That is an interesting point about Jesus, Paul, and marriage. Have you asked your JW friend about it?
Sorry, I didn’t write clearly. The triple layers of heaven (celestial, telestial and terestial) are beliefs in the Mormon faith, not JW.
JWs believe that 144,000 will rule in heaven, the rest of the believers (presumeably only other JWs) will live in perfection on earth. The rest of us will be fertilizer but not go to hell because they don’t believe in hell.