I often get Bible and Theology questions sent in from readers of this blog. I recently decided to start posting some of my answers to these questions so that if others have similar questions, they can be helped, and so that you, the readers of this blog, can help answer them as well. This question relates to the meaning of the the phrase “Son of God.”
Question:
I found your invitation of having a cup of tea with you thank you very much, but alas I live in Pakistan. you asked me to tell you about me. I am 27 years old. I am an Ahmadi Muslim. I am student of comparative study of religions. I am married. And devoted my life for God.
You said I can ask you questions. So I want to know that when Jesus is said to be the son of God or God himself what is the source of this in Bible?
Secondly many people in Bible are called son of God but aren’t taken literally and Jesus himself said to Jews that because revelations of God come to me only in that sense I am a son of God as early Godly people were called. This is mentioned in John 10:34.
My Answer
I would love to join you for that cup of tea sometime, though I doubt I will ever make it to Pakistan! But who knows….
Please forgive me for not fully understanding the second half of your question…. the part about the Jews and revelation. I seem to understand the first part as a question about Jesus being the Son of God. You also reference John 10:34-36 where Jesus argues that it is not wrong for Him to call Himself the Son of God when in the Law it is written, “You are gods.”
Let me try to answer this part of your question about Jesus being the Son of God, and hopefully that will help answer the other part of your question as well.
So, regarding the title “Son of God,” many Christians believe that this is a reference to the divinity of Jesus, that is, that this title proves that Jesus was God in the flesh.
While I personally think that such an idea can be read into this title, I don’t think that the title “Son of God” meant “God” to people in the first century. Of course, nobody (back then or today) believes that “son of God” means that God gave birth to a son or had a son after intercourse with a human female. Such an idea is foreign to reason, tradition, and Scripture. Some people accuse Christians of believing this, but I have never heard or read of any Christian who does.
So what does it mean when Jesus is called the “Son of God”?
To find the answer, we actually have to ask is what would it mean for any human to be called the “son of God”? Why do I say this? Because Jesus didn’t make up this title out of thin air.
As you have pointed out, others in history bore this title. The term “Son of God” was used occasionally for angels (Genesis 6; Job 1:6), for Israel (e.g., Exod 4:22), and sometimes for the king (such as 2 Sam 7:14, Ps 2:7 and Ps 89:27). Many in the Qumran community used the title to refer to the coming Messiah, even though none of them believed that the Messiah would be anything other than a specially-anointed human. All of these uses show that the term “Son of God” is not equivalent to “God” but is closer to meaning “of God’s family” or “having divine authority and purpose.”
However, it is also critical to point out that there was one person alive at the time of Christ who was famous for having taken the title “Son of God” for himself, and it wasn’t Jesus.
Who? The Roman Emperor Caesar Augustus. He had taken for himself the title “son of god” (Latin: imperator Caesar divi filius). Not only that, the title “Augustas” is a religious title meaning “Majesty” or “Illustrious One.” He also claimed to be “the firstborn head” of the Senate gathering (Latin: primum caput). During his reign, he began requiring Roman citizens to pay homage to him, not only through taxation, but also through pledging their allegiance with the phrase “Caesar is Lord.”
Anyone who has read the New Testament should recognize the parallel claims of Jesus. The New Testament everywhere portrays Jesus to be the son of God, the firstborn head of the church, and those who follow Jesus are called to proclaim “Jesus is Lord.”
In this way, when using terms like the “son of God” about Jesus, the New Testament writers were certainly making theological claims about Jesus, but more than that, were making political claims about Jesus. In using titles like “the Son of God” for Jesus, the early church was saying that everything Caesar claimed for himself was actually only true in Jesus Christ. In taking these titles from Caesar and giving them to Jesus, the early church (and Jesus Himself) was subversively mocking the power claims of Caesar and the Roman Empire.
So does this mean Jesus Wasn’t God?
Now, does any of this mean that the term “son of God” does not imply that Jesus is God? No. To the contrary, the phrase “son of God” came to be understood by Paul and later New Testament writers as referring to the divinity of Jesus.
But I don’t think it necessarily meant this initially. No Jewish person would think that an angel was God, or that Israel was God, or that a king was god, but the term is used of them all. But through the ministry, life, teaching, death, and resurrection of Jesus, people came to see that Jesus was more than just a man. He was God in the flesh. He was Immanuel, God with us. As such, they added additional meaning to the term “Son of God” so that it now refers to Jesus being God incarnate.
What is Jesus saying in John 10:34-36?
So what about John 10:34-36? Jesus is quoting from Psalm 82:6. To understand Jesus, we must understand Psalm 82.
Essentially, Psalm 82 is where God, the judge of all, sits in judgment on corrupt human judges. Human judges have authority to judge, but their authority comes from God. In that sense, they can be called “sons of God.” They are sent with His authority.
In legal terminology, it is called de jure authority. It is derived authority. It has been delegated to them by someone with greater authority. The one with the greater authority has de facto authority. It is authority inherent within the person. Ultimately, only God has de facto authority.
So anyway, in Psalm 82, God, the de facto authority, shows up to condemn and judge the human judges, who have been using their de jure authority to make unjust judgments. They have not been helping the poor and fatherless, or the afflicted and needy. So God judges them, and says that although they are “sons of God,” that is, although He has given some of His authority to them to make judgments, they will still die like mere men (82:7).
This helps us understand what Jesus is saying in John 10:34-36. The religious leaders of His day also had de jure authority. Their authority derived from God. But they were misusing it and abusing their position of authority to make unjust judgments.
So Jesus challenged them on their judgments, and when they God upset, and asked Him by what authority He was doing and saying these things, He said that He had authority as a “Son of God.” What authority is that? Interestingly, it is the de jure authority! I believe He could have claimed de facto authority, but in this case He does not. Why not? For many reasons, but one is that Jesus knew His opponents were trying to bait Him, and He refused to take the bait. Instead, He claimed to have the same de jure authority that they had, but insisted that they were misusing and abusing their authority. He still made His point, but without falling into their trap.
This answer is probably more than you thought you would get, and I apologize for that.
I just feel that there are lots of Christians going about teaching sloppy ideas and careless theology, which then gets us in trouble when thinking people of other religions challenge us on our beliefs. For this reason, I try (but am not always successful) to be extremely careful in how I word things. But that usually leads to long and wordy answers like this one…
How do you understand the title “Son of God”?
So have you studied or read much about the title “Son of God”? What do you think it means? How do you understand it? How would you answer the questions posed above? Weigh in below!
You wrote, ” I believe He could have claimed de facto authority, but in this case He does not.” Could you give us any examples of instances in which Jesus actually did claim de facto authority, in other words, examples where Jesus actually claimed to be God?
To anticipate one of your possible answers, I don’t think “I and the father are one” counts, because it is not the same as “I am the father;. ” just as a man and a woman becoming one in marriage does not mean that the man is the woman, or vice versa.
I agree with the “I and the Father are one” argument. I usually wouldn’t do that either.
There are numerous places where we see Jesus claiming such divine authority for Himself. One would be where Jesus interprets the Law of Moses based on His own authority (Matt 5:38-48). Nobody can make such claims except God Himself. Jesus is claiming de facto authority here.
Another would be where He forgives sins on his own authority (Luke 5).
Then there is the time Jesus claimed to be “I AM” (John 8:58). The Jewish people certainly understood His claim, because they tried to stone Him.
There are numerous other examples in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John where Jesus is clearly portraying Himself as an incarnation not only of God, but of Temple and Torah, two of the primary de facto ways that God interacted with His people.
How about the students who get to forgive sins?
Jeremy, I enjoy all the theological discourse as much as anyone…to a point. As Christians have preached, interpreted and written opinions on these unanswerable questions for centuries the discussion has become meaningless and a distraction. Jesus made it clear what the greatest commandments are and these discussions while interesting academically do not lead people to the Kingdom of God.
To our friend in Pakistan I would say ” Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” This may not get you a good mark in comparative religion but will leave one on your life and the lives of others.
Randy,
While it may be true that academic discussions do not lead most people to the Kingdom of God, they do lead some people. Take C. S. Lewis as an example. He was dragged kicking and screaming into the Kingdom of God by the logical and rational (yes, academic) arguments which he could not refute. The same goes for Josh McDowell and many other Christian apologists and writers.
Regardless, I don’t really write intending to lead non-believers into the kingdom of God, but believers. Once a person has believed in Jesus for eternal life, they need to be discipled. That is, they need to be trained and taught in the truth of the things we have had since the beginning. That is primarily who I am writing for…. for believers, so that together, we can encourage one another to live daily within the principles of the Kingdom of God.
Jeremy.
Thanks, you have a good point. Part of my frustration is I have these discussions with pastors and other believers and little changes in the community. The church is still a 501(c)3 or corporation first, the meeting (services, ugh) are passive, and the money goes to overhead. You do a good job. Keep it up.
Yes, you are so right. There is a lots of waste in the typical 501(c)3. I remember one I worked for, the phone company called and said we could save $900 a year on our phone bill by switching. So we switched. The only drawback was that when you first picked up the phone to call someone, the phone gave two little beeps. It was strange, but no big deal. It annoyed the CEO, however, so we switched back to the “beepless” company… and no more savings of $900….
Hi my friend in Pakistan, I have just been debating with a Christian about the Church in context to it’s people rather than denominations, places or buildings.
Many millions over the 2000 years of Christianity have pawed over scripture from that written on clay and papyrus and still are trying to understand God. All this is done for many reasons, some to disprove a God, others to do the opposite, some get the answer, tradicly many don’t.
Personally I have no problem in believing all the Holy Bible and am eternally grateful for the many people who inspired by Holy Spirit have tanslated it into English and subsequently into many other tongues.
I meet up with ‘not yet believers’ who have already decided that there is no God and their objective is either to convince me to join them or maybe to convince themselves through my inadequacies, to orove they are right.
I’m pleased that I am not an academic as I feel many of them who claim to be believers, think so much as to wheather they really believe or is it really true? continually struggle with many of the concepts of belief.
My mind does not inform me that Jesus is Lord but it is my heart that informs my mind. While we allow our mind to inform us of everything we will forever be in turmoil, always debating and never moving onubtill we are dead, what a waste of a life. When we hear of someone young dying of a drug overdose we say “what a terrible waste of a life, full of potential”, I agree but to me its no different to those who search for God and never find Him and die at a very old age.
Belief can only come from a direct revelation from God by Holy Spirit. The Alpha and other Christian courses can’t give you access to belief, but it may allow you to focus on the possibility of a God who so loved His creation that He was willing to die for it. All you have to do is ask Him to reveal Himself to you in your heart. No matter how many courses you attend or how many Christian books you read or how many Blogs you access, unless you open your heart your mind can never conceive of it.
I’m an evangalist with a little e. Since God revealed Himself to me in my desperate need 34 years ago, I’m 72 in July, my whole everyday life in all I do is targeted on sharing the love He has given me, to free others. My prayer for you is that God will have compassion on you and before this day is out you will receive a revelation from Him who loves you. Love Clive X
Hey man, haven’t been here since the IAQ posts. . . wanted you to know that I didn’t know about the name thing at the time. Thought it was weird then but asked and found it was a really good & kind thing you were trying. If no memories of this, just know thanks, it’s appreciated. Things are good. . . following Jesus. . .
Jeremy,
Thanks for taking the time and effort to write such a thorough and nuanced answer to our friend in Pakistan.
Glenn
Randy nailed it.
The whole message of Jesus’ ministry is to live by those two great commandments. The rest of it reminds me of the story of the blind men trying to describe an .elephant. In case you haven’t heard the story, one version can be found at http://www.k4care.net/index.php?id=44.
On sites like this one we are all blind men trying to describe an elephant. Theological discussion can help us blind men and women to get a better idea of the elephant, but preaching is only annoying.
One thing that makes me cringe is when people ask me, “Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior?”
My answer is an emphatic “No!”
God is my lord. The Christ is my guide and teacher. Jesus of Nazareth is my role model. You may see it differently, and that’s okay. But don’t come knocking on my door trying to save my soul when you don’t know anything about the state of my soul.
Thank you Jeremy, because instead of knocking on our doors, you’ve opened your own door and asked us in for a chat.
I just re-read the passages you quoted in your answer to me, and the way I see it they all still describe Jesus speaking and acting out of the authority that comes from being a Son of God, from living in the Holy Spirit. In John, he speaks out of, or as, the Holy Spirit, but he still makes no claim to be God. In all of those passages he speaks of God as his father, not as himself.
I believe we are all Sons and Daughters of God, just as Jesus was, though I, for one, often fall short of living that belief the way Jesus did.
I speak of Jesus in the past tense because that’s how we speak of people who have died in the flesh. Yes, I believe that Jesus is alive, just as I believe than many good people I knew in the flesh still live in the spirit, and more than just as memories of those of us who are left behind. After all, we shall not sleep, but in an instant we shall all be changed. (Though not all of us in the same instant, I’m pretty sure.)
I was most interested to read Clive’s story, because it is much the same as my own. God revealed Oneself to me about forty years ago. (I avoid referring to God as He, because God, containing all things, is so much more than male and/or female) I, too, called out from the depth of despair and was surprised to immediately receive an answer, and an instruction, tailor made for me, which I won’t detail here; though I’d love to sit down with all of you and buy a round of beer, kosher wine, juice or whatever and chat some more. I don’t think we’d come to blows. Though we’ve come from different places and we’re moving along different paths, I think we’re all pointed in the same direction.
I sense that Clive and I “see the elephant” differently, but I think all of us that have posted on this topic agree on those great commandments.
I just turned 63 myself, recently retired, and my whole life is also targeted on sharing the love and helping to free all of us, through doing what I’ve personally been given to do.
Love, always.
To Devoted – Devoted to God…
“student of comparative study of religions.” Who lives in Pakistan.
Welcome. Thank you for asking about Jesus, The Son of God and God Himself.
And, what the Bible has to say about Jesus, the Son of God, being God Himself.
You ask….
“So I want to know that when Jesus is said to be the son of God or God himself what is the source of this in Bible?”
From studing, reading, questioning, over the years, I’ve noticed that…
The Bible, in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament,
Consistantly – Interchanges and Identifies – Jesus, The Son, as God.
Interchange – Dictionary
1. To put each of (two things) in the place of the other.
2. The act of substituting one thing for another.
Identify – Dictionary
1. To make identical.
2. To consider or treat as the same.
Here are some scriptures that causes me to see Jesus and God as “One.”
1 – In Isaiah there are two scriptures that refer to a “son” who is called God.
A – In Isaiah 7:14, a virgin has a son and calls his name Immanuel. “God with us.”
B – In Isaiah 9:6, the son is called “The mighty God.”
A – Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin
shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
“Immanuel” is Hebrew for – “God with us.”
This scripture is repeated in the NT and adds the meaning for Emmanuel.
A – Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son,
and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
B – In Isaiah 9:6 “A Son is given”and “His name shall be called”…
**The mighty God.**
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us “a son is given:”
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,
**The mighty God,** The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Most would agree, “a child is born and a son is given,” refers to Jesus,
and “The Prince of Peace” also refers to Jesus.
If this is correct, then the son, Jesus, as I see it, is also **The mighty God.**
Jesus, Prince of Peace… The mighty God…
Devoted to God
2- In the NT (New Testament) in the Gospel of John…
The Word is called God and The Word was made flesh – Jesus.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
One of the many names for Jesus, in the Bible, is “The Word of God.”
Revelations 19:13
…and his name is called The Word of God.
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.
Jesus, The Word of God. God – Come in the flesh.
Devoted to God
3- In The NT, Revelations 1:8,
Jesus is speaking and calls Himself “the Almighty.” The all ruling God.
Revelations 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,
saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come,
**the Almighty.**
When looking at the translation for “almighty,”
my study books always refers “almighty” to God.
In the KJV it is used as “almighty” nine times and omnipotent once.
Strongs Concordance – Almighty
The all ruling God (absolute and universal sovereign) Almighty, omnipotent.
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Almighty = Ruler of all, used of God only.
Thayers Lexicon – Almighty
1) he who holds sway over all things
2) the ruler of all
3) almighty: God
In three sources the Almighty = God.
Jesus, The Alpha and Omega,
The Almighty, – God.
Devoted to God
4- Today I can see the NT directly identifing Jesus with God at least five times.
1. Jesus is called the great God.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of
the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
2. Jesus is called the true God and eternal life.
1John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding,
that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true,
even in his Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God, and eternal life.
3. Jesus is called Emmanuel – God With Us.
Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son,
and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
4. Jesus, the Son is called God in Hebrews 1:8, referring to Psalm 45:6, in the OT.
Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
Psalm 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
5. Jesus is called God by Thomas the apostle
when Thomas sees the resurrected Christ.
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him,
My Lord and my God.
“God was manifest in the flesh.” 1 Tim 3:16.
Devoted to God
5- The way I see it now the OT (Old Testament) and NT is consistently…
Interchanging and Identifying – Jesus with God.
1. In the OT God is our Savior and there is no savior beside Him.
1. In the NT Jesus is our Savior.
2. In the OT God is our Shepherd.
2. In the NT Jesus is our Shepherd.
3. In the OT God is our Redeemer.
3. In the NT We are redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb – Jesus.
4. In the OT God is my Salvation.
4. In the NT Jesus is my Salvation and neither is there salvation in any other.
5. In the OT God creates the heavens and the earth and all things.
5. In the NT Jesus creates the heavens and the earth and all things.
6. In the OT God is my Deliverer.
6. In the NT Jesus is my Deliverer.
7. In the OT God is the Light.
7. In the NT Jesus is the Light
8. OT – God says that every knee shall bow to God. ( bow – a form of worship)
8. NT – At the name of Jesus every knee should bow.
9. In the OT we are to Worship the Lord our God.
9. In the NT we are to Worship Jesus.
It seems to me that…
The OT is JESUS Concealed.
The NT is GOD Revealed.
Anyone who wants to ‘prove’ their case on the authority of the Bible, and particularly the New Testament, should investigate thoroughly how these writings came to be in their present form – not just adopting the dogma of sectarian seminaries but also finding out what more independent and objective scholars have to say on the matter. Many of them are Christian scholars, I might add.
There are numerous good sources, but if I were to recommend only one, it would be “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Ehrman.
Bart Ehrman is anything but an objective scholar. If you do read his work also read: MISREPRESENTING JESUS Debunking Bart D. Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus By:Edward D. Andrews
Fair and Balanced. Just remember Bart was quoted as saying he has no presuppositions. Hmmnn
MISREPRESENTING EHRMAN – Thanks, Dan. I’ll read the book, but it’s not at the top of my list, because judging by the excerpt from chapter 9 posted on academia.edu, Andrews is also anything but objective.
He claims Ehrman “…has now plummeted to the depths of being an atheist.” I can’t find anything online to support such a claim; certainly not on his own website or blog. He writes, “I moved from being a committed church-going Christian to become an agnostic. I no longer know whether God exists. But if he does exist, I’m convinced that he is not the God I was raised to believe in…” An honest statement and an understandable position – also far from a proclamation of atheism.
He also writes, “But coming to this view is not a matter of destroying Christianity or hurting Christians. Christians who study the Bible carefully to see what each individual author is trying to teach (rather than assuming they’re all teaching the same thing) are not destructive Christians. They are informed Christians. The opposite of being informed is not being destroyed; it’s being ignorant.”
I’m not an agnostic myself. I know God through my own personal experience. I agree with Bart, though, that God is not the God I was raised to believe in.
My point is that Ehrman is nothing nearing objective. His fallacious objectivity is much more disturbing then a man with a stated presupposition. Like any man is objective and with out presupposition, which in itself is a presupposition. You can not start you with such a logical fallacy and expect credibility from a true critical thinker. Persons such as yourself who have a similar predisposition of course will side with someone ho supports your view and pretend they are objective but honesty is never as important as winning the argument when it comes to discrediting Christ.
Sorry, done from my phone so pardon the typos
Dan, you wrote, “Persons such as yourself who have a similar predisposition…”
You have no idea who I am, much less who I’m ‘siding’ with or what I’m trying to say. I don’t blame you though. Using words makes that happen.
Matt. 7:1-5. The rest of the chapter, too.
Love ya anyway, brother!
Sorry Lutek but I just took you at your word. I have a presupposition. It came from years of research but my mind became in sync with Scripture. I will admit that my defense of the Bible would come from a personal experience and is not credible in an argument of pure logic but in the post modern world the trademark is, make your reality the truth. If everyone in the world claims their own path to the truth, than the Bible is fallacious. If a person believes in Christ than his words: “I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except through me” excludes all other belief systems other than his way. If we could not know that way through some recorded evidence, than the statement is false or at the minimum unattainable, so if I believe in Christ, I have to believe he would leave a record of what belief in him meant. That in my research is the Bible. A recorded history, purpose and plan to be able to escape this fallen matrix some would accept as the ultimate reality. I see that reality clearly shown in the Bible, that is my basis for reality. What is yours?
Hi Dan, I hope this shows up in the right spot in the conversation. There is no reply button on your post, so I replied to the previous one.
What’s my basis for reality? Wow, that’s a tough question to answer in just a few words, but here goes:
I am nothing. I do nothing. If I compare living to driving a car, I’m not the driver. I used to think I was, but that’s an illusion. I just choose a moral direction and, based on that choice, one of two drivers takes over, putting circumstances in my path to help take me there. I have to keep choosing fresh in each moment. Do I glorify myself, or do I glorify God? But it’s an easy choice to make. If I love, I stay the course.
Probably not the answer you expected, and it’s not the one I first thought I was going to give you. I was going to reply to your theological statements with my own, but that would have taken volumes, and it wasn’t really what you asked.
The only thing I disagree with is your apology in the last paragraph. You apologized for being too long winded. Don’t apologize. It was a good writing.
To which I can only add: Fully agree with Bob!
Be humble enough to be exalted. God does that you know.
To our brother in Pakistan (and all others who are partaking in this discussion) – an article (study assignment I wrote several years ago) on the deity of Christ may also facilitate your own study of the topic at hand: http://www.hoseaconnection.org/docs/The Deity of Christ.pdf
I tried to access your article, and got a 404 error – page not found. I tried going up one level to /docs and got “403 – Forbidden – You don’t have permission to access /docs/ on this server.”
Did you warn them I was coming?
Just kidding! I’m not out to “Kill Jesus'”, as Bill O’reilly puts it. Just to help focus on his original message.
Is there any other site where we can see the article?
Thanks for letting me know. To avoid any other hassles – http://www.hoseaconnection.org > articles and study tools > doctrinal evaluation > The Deity of Christ.pdf
Thanks, Gerrie. I found it. I have other commitments this morning but I’ve downloaded the .pdf and it’s now at the top of my reading list.
The website intro is promising. I just want to point out an apparent typo in your bio, though. It says “… two pilgrims on a journey seeking to rightly divide the Bible…”
Some would call that a Freudial slip. Thank God I’m not as Freudian!
I’m pretty sure you meant, “to rightly divine the Bible.” Thought I’d point that out, because a lot of people tend to take things too literally.
I’m looking forward to reading your article.
That should read, “Thank God I’m not a Freudian.” Maybe ol’ Sigmund had a point, after all!
Now that’s funny!!! 😉
Thanks for your feedback. The ‘divide’ expression comes from the King James Version, 2 Tim. 2:15 and literally means making a straight cut, or dissect correctly. The Holman Christian Standard Bible renders it “correctly teaching”.
I tested the following too and opened the article without problems: http://www.hoseaconnection.org/docs/The%20Deity%20of%20Christ.pdf
Lutec
You write @ February 8, 2014 at 3:02 pm…
“There are numerous “good sources,” but if I were to recommend only one,
it would be “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Ehrman.
Now, I Kinda like when Jesus, as man, says,
“Why call me good? There is none good but “ONE” that is, God. Mr 10:18 KJV
If I were to recommend “ONE” “good source” it would be Jesus Himself. God. 😉
Who, as God, called Himself the GOOD Shepherd. John 10:11 ESV.
And, Jesus, also referred to Himself as The “ONE” Shepherd. John 10:16 NLT.
And, The “ONE” Teacher and The “ONE” leader. Mat 23:8-10 NASB
Jesus, the scriptures, also say, God can be, wants to be, our teacher.
Do WE want to “Trust” Mere Fallible Humans, Bart Ehrman, to learn about Jesus?
When WE, His Ekklesia, His Body, His Disciples, can go directly to Jesus, God,
The Word of God, The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth, to learn about Jesus?
NO middle man.
You need NO man teach you. Thank you Jesus.
1 John 2:26-27
These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and **ye need NOT that any man teach you:**
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.
John 15:26
…even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 14:26
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you ALL things…
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
that *He might instruct thee:*
Psalms 32:8
I will instruct thee and teach thee
in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
It does take a step of faith to believe and trust that
Jesus “can speak to you” and **teach you** “ALL” truth.
Who better to “interpret scripture” than Jesus?
A. Amos Love wrote, ““If I were to recommend “ONE” “good source” it would be Jesus Himself.”
I didn’t mean a good source of spiritual wisdom. I meant a good source of information regarding the provenance of the New Testament – important to know if we go about trying to understand it the hard way. We don’t have Jesus here to ask him what he meant.
But the best source of spiritual wisdom available to us is the Holy Spirit, which anyone can hear who gets rid of the ego, the noise and the preconceptions. Jesus did that, and taught us how to do that as well. Not through theology, but through mysticism – not through analyzing and studying divinity, but by embracing God.
Do we want to trust mere fallible humans to learn about Jesus?
What choice do we have? Were not Matthew, Mark, Luke John and Paul also fallible humans? Also, didn’t they write from memory, twenty years or more after the events?
Weren’t the people who copied the original writings, or autographs – which are not available to us today – also humans?
Weren’t the people who translated those copies into various languages also humans? Isn’t it possible that at least some of the people involved made their own changes, to highlight their own interpretations? Historians tell us that it was common practice in those times.
Weren’t the church ‘fathers’ who established the current canon of the Bible also fallible humans?
But we do have the Holy Spirit, which first manifested through Jesus, at least in Abrahamic traditions. (I believe that spirit also manifested in different cultures through people like the Buddha and Lao Tzu. Not in the same way, of course, and perhaps not to the same degree, but wisdom comes only from God, who speaks to us through the Holy Spirit.)
The Holy Spirit is the manifestation of God in man. Jesus showed the way, by living the two Great Commandments. “No one comes to the father, except through me.” Meaning, “Except by the truth I am telling you, and the light I am shining for you.”
To the best of my knowledge, Jesus never, ever, in any canonical scripture, nor in any apocryphal scripture, claimed to actually be God. On the contrary, he always spoke of coming from the father, being sent by the father, being in the father, returning to the father, doing the work of the father, etc.
In the beginning was the ‘word’ or logos. Not Jesus. In Christian theological terms, logos might better be translated as the Christ. The same distinction should probably be applied to most of those passages in Isaiah used to ‘prove’ the deity of Jesus.
The other main “proofs” are found in the Gospel of John.
Here are some quotations from the introduction to that gospel, taken from my copy of the New American Bible (p. 91, N.T.):
“Modern critical analysis makes it difficult to accept the idea that the gospel as it now stands was written by one man.”
“…more and more students of this gospel are coming to believe that the inconsistencies were probably produced by subsequent editing…”
There are more, similar statements, which for me raise questions about that entire book. But it doesn’t really matter. Love is what really counts, and what the scriptures are all about.
I’m not arguing against the divinity of Jesus, but I disagree with attributing deity to him. Further, I think that doing so just serves to turn many people away from seriously investigating Jesus for themselves.
Are not sons and daughters of God? Am I damned for even suggesting that?
What I’m saying is that we, too, need to step out of our earthly natures and accept the anointing, the baptism, the divinity of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus taught and showed us.
A. Amos Love wrote “If I were to recommend “ONE” “good source” it would be Jesus Himself.”
I didn’t mean a good source of spiritual wisdom. I meant a good source of information regarding the provenance of the New Testament – important to know if we go about trying to understand it the hard way. We don’t have Jesus here to ask him what he meant.
But the best source of spiritual wisdom available to us is the Holy Spirit, which anyone can hear who gets rid of the ego, the noise and the preconceptions. Jesus did that, and taught us how to do that as well. Not through theology, but through mysticism – not through analyzing and studying divinity, but by embracing God.
Do we want to trust mere fallible humans to learn about Jesus?
What choice do we have? Were not Matthew, Mark, Luke John and Paul also fallible humans? Also, didn’t they write from memory, twenty years or more after the events?
Weren’t the people who copied the original writings, or autographs – which are not available to us today – also humans?
Weren’t the people who translated those copies into various languages also humans? Isn’t it possible that at least some of the people involved made their own changes, to highlight their own interpretations? Historians tell us that it was common practice in those times.
Weren’t the church ‘fathers’ who established the current canon of the Bible also fallible humans?
But we do have the Holy Spirit, which first manifested through Jesus, at least in Abrahamic traditions. (I believe that spirit also manifested in different cultures through people like the Buddha and Lao Tzu. Not in the same way, of course, and perhaps not to the same degree, but wisdom comes only from God, who speaks to us through the Holy Spirit.)
The Holy Spirit is the manifestation of God in man. Jesus showed the way, by living the two Great Commandments. “No one comes to the father, except through me.” Meaning, “Except by the truth I am telling you, and the light I am shining for you.”
To the best of my knowledge, Jesus never, ever, in any canonical scripture, nor in any apocryphal scripture, claimed to actually be God. On the contrary, he always spoke of coming from the father, being sent by the father, being in the father, returning to the father, doing the work of the father, etc.
In the beginning was the ‘word’ or logos. Not Jesus. In Christian theological terms, logos might better be translated as the Christ. The same distinction should probably be applied to most of those passages in Isaiah used to ‘prove’ the deity of Jesus.
The other main “proofs” are found in the Gospel of John.
Here are some quotations from the introduction to that gospel, taken from my copy of the New American Bible (p. 91, N.T.):
“Modern critical analysis makes it difficult to accept the idea that the gospel as it now stands was written by one man.”
“…more and more students of this gospel are coming to believe that the inconsistencies were probably produced by subsequent editing…”
There are more, similar statements, which for me raise questions about that entire book. But it doesn’t really matter. Love is what really counts, and what the scriptures are all about.
I’m not arguing against the divinity of Jesus, but I disagree with attributing deity to him. Further, I think that doing so just serves to turn many people away from seriously investigating Jesus for themselves.
Are we not all sons and daughters of God?
What I’m saying is that we, too, need to step out of our earthly natures and accept the anointing, the baptism, the divinity of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus taught and showed us.
Lutec
Thanks for the comprehensive reply.
You write….
“Do we want to trust mere fallible humans to learn about Jesus?
What choice do we have?”
“Weren’t the people who copied the original writings, or autographs – which are not available to us today – also humans?”
Yes they were. They were also humans.
I think you wrote that in response to my statement about trusting – Bart Ehrman.
Do WE want to “Trust” Mere Fallible Humans, Bart Ehrman, to learn about Jesus?
That’s why I wrote it this way….
Do WE want to “Trust” Mere Fallible Humans, Bart Ehrman, to learn about Jesus?
*When WE,* His Ekklesia, His Body, His Disciples, can *go directly to Jesus,* God,
The Word of God, The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth, to learn about Jesus?
NO middle man.
If you noticed, I say, You, Lutec, can go directly to Jesus, and ask HIM directly.
NO middle man. NOT talking with Mere Fallible Humans. Talk to Jesus.
Then I quoted verses in both the OT and NT where Jesus, God, says…
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
that *He might instruct thee:*
So, when you ask – “What choice do we have?” Well…
You can go to the one who loves you, and died for you, and ask Him…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Go to him where? Ask him what? I have nothing to ask at this time. I continue to be given everything I need, almost always before I even ask.
Jesus isn’t here. His body died. I didn’t need to go to him in spirit, because I went directly to God in my hour of need. No middleman. That works, too, believe it or not! I’ve been going directly to God in my years since then.
I’ve met God, I am in the father, and the father is in me. It always will be so.
Lutec
Sounds like you have a great relationship with God…
And, sounds like we are in agreement…
WE, You and Me, can go directly to God, NO middle man.
You write…
“I went directly to God in my hour of need. No middleman.”
“I’ve been going directly to God in my years since then.”
Amen…
Psalm 118:8-9
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
Jer 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man…
and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Lutek
Sorry – Just noticed I’ve been spelling your name wrong.
Thanks, Amos. I was beginning to see that we’re pretty much in agreement as well. It’s just the words and names we’ve been debating. Words and names (and spelling) are man’s doing. Love is God’s!
Amen
L. O. V. E.
The
L. anguage
O. f
V. ictorious
E. ternity
Is LOVE
P. S.
Love ya, man!
Lutek
Awww – Thanks…
You’re maken me blush.
You write…
“I am in the father, and the father is in me.”
I think I would enjoy having a cup of coffee with you.
Eph 4:2-6
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering,
forbearing one another in *love;*
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body, and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
*One God and Father of all,*
who is above all, and through all, * and in you all.**
I think The Father in me – Would like The Father in you. 😉
Mal 3:16
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before him
for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Love ya, man!
The answer to the question “What does Son of God means” is too long and at the end of it means nothing. The Romans use to give this title to accomplished people. The truth is God is the Creator of all things and we are His creations – nothing more nothing less.
And do you know that there are at least 6 other personalities apart from Jesus who claim to be born out of virgin mother? Ask Hindus and earlier mesopotamiums and egyptians.
To them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder
—Mark 3:17
Adam, the son of God.
—Luke 3:38
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus
—Galatians 3:26
Devoted from Pakistan. – And anyone else who is still interested…
Back to Devoted’s question – In the post Devoted asks…
“So I want to know that when Jesus is said to be the son of God or God himself what is the source of this in Bible?”
Back on February 8, 2014 at 12:23 pm, a fifth example was given of how…
The Bible, consistently, Interchanges and Identifies, Jesus with God.
There was listed 9 examples, OT to NT, Identifying Jesus with God.
Here are some of the scripture references for those 9 examples.
1. OT – God is our Savior and there is no savior beside Him.
1. NT – Jesus is our Savior.
**OT scriptures – God is our savior.
2 Samuel 22:3
The God of my rock; …the horn of my salvation … my savior…
Isaiah 43:3
For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Savior…
Isaiah 43:11
I, even I am the LORD and beside me there is no savior.
Isaiah 45:15
Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Savior.
Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God… for there is no savior beside me.
**NT scriptures – Jesus is our savior.
Luke 2:11
…unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.
2Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ…
Titus 2:13
…the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
2Peter 2:20
…through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
————
Is God our Savior? – Or – Is Jesus our Savior? – Or – Is God and Jesus “ONE?”
Is the Bible – Interchangeing and Identifying – Jesus with God?
Devoted from Pakistan. – And anyone else who is still interested…
Paul, in the NT, in Titus, also calls God, “OUR” Savior, and Jesus, “OUR” Saviour.
Interchangeing and Identifying, Jesus with God.
…God our Savior – Titus 1:3
…the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior – Titus 1:4
…God our Savior – Titus 2:10
…great God and our Savior Jesus Christ – Titus 2:13
…God our Savior – Titus 3:4
…Jesus Christ our Savior – Titus 3:6
I do NOT believe Paul is saying, teaching, we have Two Saviors?
Because, the LORD, (Jehovah), OT says, “Besides me there is NO Savior?
Isaiah 43:11
I, even I am the LORD and beside me there is NO savior.
I see Paul, is simply, Interchangeing and Identifying, Jesus with God?
Interchange – Dictionary
1. To put each of (two things) in the place of the other.
2. The act of substituting one thing for another.
Identify – Dictionary
1. To make identical.
2. To consider or treat as the same
Of Course Jesus Was Born of A Virgin – it happened a lot back then
As Christians we confess that Jesus was born to a virgin. Some people doubt the accuracy of that – but they may not realize that it was not that uncommon back then.
Here are just 10 people born of a virgin in the ancient world:
1. Buddha
2. Krishna – born without a sexual union, by “mental transmission” from the mind of Vasudeva into the womb of Devaki, his mother.
3. Odysseus
4. Romulus
5. Dionysus*
6. Heracles – Son of a god (Zeus)
7. Glycon – son of the God Apollo
8. Zoroaster/Zarathustra
9. Attis of Phrygia
10. Horus
Kahn
The difference I see with those ten you mention as born of a virgin…
And with Jesus born of a virgin… And Jesus, called “The Son of God.” – Is…
Jesus, was born as a savior, without sin, as a sacrifice, to shed His Blood, for me…
And to take away the sin of the world. 😉
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1 John 1:7
… and the blood of Jesus Christ *his Son* cleanseth us from all sin.
These ten might have also been born of a virgin…
But – The blood of these ten you mention – Does me NO good at ALL.
And, yes – I would like to think I’m also a son of God.
Jesus said, if I receive Him, believe on His name, He, Jesus,
will give me power to *become* a son of God.
John 1:11-12
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many *as received him,* (Jesus)
to them gave he (Jesus) power to become “the sons of God,”
even to them that believe on his name: (Jesus)
BUT – And this might come as a surprise…
NO matter how much of my own blood that I shed…
*My blood* will do *you* NO good at ALL.
Only The Blood of Jesus can cleanse our sin
Dear Amos,
God does not need blood to cleanse anything. The true God can forgive.
Blood shedding is a pagan belief.
Nope Ancient Jews gave sacrfices to God. They were not pagan.
Devoted from Pakistan.
Paul, in Romans, also, Interchanges and Identifies…
“The Gospel of God” with “The Gospel of Christ.” “The Gospel of His Son.”
… the gospel of God… Rom 1:1
… the gospel of his Son… Rom 1:9
… the gospel… Rom 1:15 (Which gospel, of God or of Christ?)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ… Rom 1:16
… the gospel of peace… Rom 10:15 (Which gospel, of God or of Christ?)
But they have not all obeyed the gospel… Rom 10:16 ( Which gospel?)
As concerning the gospel… Rom 11:28 (Which gospel?)
… the gospel of God… Rom 15:16
… I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. Rom 15:19
… the gospel of Christ. Rom 15:29
Is it The Gospel of God? – Or – the Gospel of His Son? – Or – Are they “ONE?”
I do NOT believe Paul is saying, teaching, we have Two Gospels?
I see Paul, is simply, Interchangeing and Identifying, Jesus with God?
Interchange – Dictionary
1. To put each of (two things) in the place of the other.
2. The act of substituting one thing for another.
Identify – Dictionary
1. To make identical.
2. To consider or treat as the same.
Devoted from Pakistan.
Here is an example of God being our Shepherd, and Jesus being our Shepherd.
Do WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Sheep, have Two Shepherds?
2. OT – God is our Shepherd.
2. NT – Jesus is our Shepherd.
**OT scriptures – God is our Shepherd.
Psalm 23:1
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
Isaiah 40:10-11
The Lord GOD will come… He shall feed his flock like a shepherd…
**NT scriptures – Jesus is our Shepherd.
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
John 10:16
…they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Hebrews 13:20
…Our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep…
Is God my Shepherd? – Or – Is Jesus my Shepherd? – Or – Are they “ONE?”
Khan
You write…
“God does not need blood to cleanse anything. the true God can forgive.”
Well, WE, His Ekklesia, His Sheep, His sons, His Disciples…
Are dependant on The Blood of Jesus…
For the cleansing of our sin. And His Forgiveness.
Don’t know if you read the Bible, or if you’ve noticed…
The Bible says “without **shedding of blood** is NO remission.”
And the Greek word for “remission” is the same word for “forgiveness.” 😉
So, without *the shedding of blood* is NO “remission” or “forgiveness.”
Heb 9:22 KJV
And almost ALL things are by the law purged “with blood;”
and without “shedding of blood” is NO *remission. (*Greek – aphesis. #859)
Eph 1:7 KJV
In whom we have redemption through “his blood,”
the *forgiveness of sins, (*Greek – aphesis. #859)
**Remission, Forgiveness – Strongs #859 – aphesis
KJV – remission 9, forgiveness 6, deliverance 1, liberty 1; 17
Thayers Lexicon. Remission, Forgiveness.
1) release from bondage or imprisonment, remission of the penalty
2) forgiveness of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed)
And in Mt 26:28, Jesus, says…
For this is “MY blood” of the new testament,
which “is shed” for many for “the remission of sins.”
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

Khan
B. L. O. O. D.
B.ountiful L.ove O.vercomes O.ur D.efects
by the precious BLOOD of Jesus Christ.
B.ountiful L.ove O.vercomes O.ur D.iseases
by the precious BLOOD of Jesus Christ.
B.ountiful L.ove O.vercomes…
Our Doubts – Our Dark Deed’s
Our Dying – Our Death – Our Debts
B.ountiful L.ove O.vercomes O.ur…
Damnation – Deceitfulness – Defiance
Despair – Deafness – Desires – Derision
Darkness – Deadness – Distrust – Demands
Despising – Destroying – Destruction – Devises
Devils – Devouring – Differences – Disappointments
Drunkenness – Discouragement – Discomfort – Disputes
Disobedience – Distresses – Diversities – Divisions
Direction – Disabilities – Desolation – Delusions
Difficulties – Dullness – Dumbness – Demons
By the precious BLOOD of Christ.
———-
…Satan, which deceiveth the whole world…
…And they overcame him (Satan)
by *the blood of the Lamb,*
and by the word of their testimony;
and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:9-11
Khan
Do know, and worship, Jesus as God?
In genesis there was mentioned the Sons of God and daughters of men. My take on this is that Adam fully knew who he was the son off. Fairly obvious considering. But after this and the watering down of belief we end up with sons of God, sons of men. Daughters of God and daughters of men. Then right through to the new testament and the statement about being unequally yoked in marriage. So myself for example. I am a son of God. I k ow who my father is. I didn’t always believe this but now do. And it is summed up in several ways. I. E. Being born again. And adoption. I do have slightly odd views on Christians take of the virgin birth though. I really think there may be a lot of misunderstanding or misintrepation on this topic. A person is born naturally in childbirth. But I believe this not to be the truth. Everything is supernatural. And we are all born supernaturally. The elements that make up a human being scientifically add up to several shopping bags of fairly un impressive ingredients. Fact. But the life which holds them together is something which gives us the title sons and daughters of the living god. We are more similar to jesus than maybe Christian interpretation gives credit to. But belief is the manner of the manifestation of this fact. There is nothing created that is not supernatural. Fact. And amen.
I believe that the term “son of God” is the equivalent of the word “Christ”.
I do not believe that by the first century CE, Jews understood the LXX’s reason for using “Christ”.
Hence I see the expression: “Christ, the Son of God” as a single composite title.
Doug
Biblically, “blood” consistently means “Death”.
I thought that soteriology would equate salvation with Jesus’ resurrection.
Doug
Son of GOD basically means A CHILD OF GOD as of me i am the Son of the Son of GOD JESUS CHRIST was the son of GOD meaning part of the trinity GOD who saves blesses heals perfects so on the cosmos place i am the trinity GODS son meaning a normal person created by GOD THE TRINITY who defeated all evil in order to lead all nations in the past present future to JESUS CHRIST that he will save bless heal perfect so on the whole cosmos place so on for more see my site it is all there ye i entered geneses long ago and defeated the serpent as GOD THE TRINITY prophesied it by the seed of a woman so on and not by the seed of himself already I HAVE for Feild THIS FOR ALL CREATION done.