I am not talking about abortion. …Not yet anyway.
I support a woman’s right to choose between paper and plastic at the grocery store.
I support a woman’s right to choose what kind of light bulb she uses at home.
I support a woman’s right to choose whether or not she and her family have health care.
I support a woman’s right to choose what kind of food to put her children’s lunchbox.
I support a woman’s right to choose whether or not to carry a gun.
I support a woman’s right to choose when, where, and how to discipline her children.
I support a woman’s right to choose her religion and whether or not to talk about it in public.
I support a woman’s right to choose how she defines marriage.
I could go on and on about all the ways I support a woman’s right to choose.
But what I find so sadly ironic is that the same people who support a woman’s right to choose about whether or not to terminate her pregnancy are often the same people who do not support a woman’s right to choose all the things listed above. They want to give women the right to choose whether or not to have an abortion, but they don’t want to give women the right to choose between paper and plastic.
You know a great business idea for somebody? A puppy abortion clinic. Or maybe a kitten abortion clinic. You know how many stray dogs and cats there are on the world? Wouldn’t it be great if a pet owner could take their pregnant cat or dog into a clinic and have all the little puppies or kittens aborted? Then they wouldn’t have to deal with the mess of delivery, and standing outside Walmart for hours on end trying to get rid of puppies and kittens to strangers.
I am jesting of course, but do you know what would happen if somebody started an abortion clinic for puppies and kittens? There would be outrage! You might even get arrested for cruelty to animals. Who knows? Maybe someone from PETA would come and bomb your clinic.
And yet most people think nothing of it when we talk about aborting children. A woman has a right to choose what to do with her body.
But that’s just it. It is not her body. It is someone else’s body. A child’s body. It’s a little girl or a little boy. Do not they have the right to choose what happens to their body? Tell you what…. I support a woman’s right to choose as long as that same right is extended to the little girls and little boys. Let them be born and then when they are old enough to understand, give them a choice about whether they want to live or die.
People talk about how conservatives wage a war on women. I think it is time to start talking about the war on children. And unlike the so-called war on women, the war on children has millions of casualties.
Millions of babies have been killed, slaughtered, burned, and destroyed.
In this ongoing war on children, more children have been killed than all the Jews killed in the Holocaust.
Are you “Pro-Choice”? This post probably won’t convince you to change your mind. But if you want to remain “Pro-Choice,” please start to be consistently “Pro-Choice” and let women (and the rest of us) have the right to choose in the other areas of life as well.
Hannah says
First of all, are you seriously saying that environmentalism is a bad thing, and that we should just destroy this planet, rather than doing what we can to try to save it? Why do you want people to be able to choose to destroy this planet at all? There’s only one Earth, you know, and once we destroy it, that’s the end of humanity as we know it.
Second of all, are you saying that you don’t care about those who can’t afford healthcare, and you’d rather that they suffered than that you had to give a miniscule amount of your money to help them get healthcare? If so, then that’s sick. No one chooses to be poor, you know. So why not show compassion to poor people and help them out?
Third of all, very few liberals (and I’m not talking about liberal politicians here, I’m talking about liberal civilians) care about what parents choose to put in their kid’s lunchbox. As long as all kids are getting lunch, us liberals are happy. Stop blaming liberal civilians for the actions of idiotic liberal politicians.
Fourth of all, gun control is not the same thing as taking away your Second Amendment rights. I’ll repeat that: GUN CONTROL IS NOT THE SAME THING AS TAKING AWAY YOUR SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS. So stop it with that tired old lie. Just because us liberals don’t want literally everyone (including mentally unstable people) to be able to own a gun doesn’t mean that we don’t want anyone to be able to own a gun.
Fifth of all, as long as parents aren’t outright abusing their children, most liberals (again, by which I mean liberal civilians) don’t care how they choose to punish them. Where are you getting the idea that liberals care about people’s parenting choices from?
Sixth of all, us liberals are all about the Freedom of Religion. It’s you conservatives who think that it’s wrong for non-Christians to have the Freedom of Religion. This is not a “Christian nation,” no matter how much you conservatives try to claim it is.
Seventh of all, you can define marriage however you want. What us liberals have a problem with is when you try to take away people’s rights depending on how you personally define marriage. And why shouldn’t we have a problem with that? Why should people’s civil rights (such as the right to marry the person you love, which is a civil right according to the Supreme Court case of Loving v. Virginia) be put up to a vote at all?
Eighth of all, forcing an animal to get an abortion is not the same thing as allowing a woman to choose to get an abortion. The fact that you can’t tell the difference between forcing someone to do something and allowing someone to choose whether or not to do something scares me a bit, honestly. You basically don’t understand what oppression is, and you refuse to even try to understand what it is.
Lastly, women are not incubators for the fetus inside of them. Just because a woman is pregnant doesn’t mean that she’s obligated to remain pregnant. It’s not up to you to say that abortion is wrong for all women, especially seeing as you seem to be determined to ignore the actual thoughts and feelings of pregnant women and treat them like they’re just baby-making machines. Your views on abortion are motivated by a deep-seated hatred towards women, so why should I take those views seriously at all?
Lyle says
Sex is a choice and the consequence is that a life can be created. That life should have the very choices that you and I have. To look upon a life as a choice is to look upon someone else and say that you shouldn’t exist because I don’t want you here. If I murder you with “just cause” because you inhibit me to do as I please, does that make it justified? NO! All life whether in the womb or living and breathing is sacred and God finds pleasure in those he created. Your choice is made when you have sex, if you don’t want to incubate a child then make your choices wisely before you get pregnant.
Hannah says
First of all, how come you ignored the large majority of what I said? Ignoring my points doesn’t make my points invalid, you know.
Second of all, are you saying that that pregnancy should be some sort of a punishment (or “consequence,” as you put it, but it’s obvious that you’re using “consequence” as a synonym for “punishment”) for having sex irresponsibly? You do realize that plenty of unplanned pregnancies result from responsible sex, since the contraceptives didn’t work the way they were supposed to, don’t you? Do you think those responsible women should be punished, too?
And since when is it a smart idea at all to punish an irresponsible woman by forcing her into a situation that she obviously isn’t responsible enough to deal with? I mean, if a woman isn’t even responsible enough to use birth control, what makes you think she’s responsible enough to gestate a child for nine months without harming it? Have you thought this through at all?
Also, just FYI, this country (meaning the US, which I assume is where you live) is not a theocracy, which means that the laws of this country (including the laws regarding abortion) should not be based on any one religion (or holy book) in particular. So just because your religion teaches you to think that abortion is morally wrong doesn’t mean a thing in terms of whether or not abortion should be illegal. So do you have any non-religious reasons as to why abortion should be illegalized?
Lyle says
con•se•quence
noun \ˈkän(t)-sə-ˌkwen(t)s, -kwən(t)s\
• something that happens as a result of a particular action or set of conditions
• importance or value
First of all, I don’t see anywhere in the definition that consequence is synonymous with punishment. (My personal opinion is that all children are a blessing and doesn’t matter if they are wanted or unwanted.)
Secondly, why so uptight? I can tell that this is an issue close to your heart. But, why should a child be held responsible for their parent’s actions?
I believe in the sanctity of human life, moral responsibility, and the good news in the gospel. Hanna, do you have any spiritual beliefs?
sarah says
Hannah I find your comments highly disturbing. The fact that you have so very little regard for the life of a helpless baby. We were all obviously inside the womb at one point in Time and what if your mother considered your conception to be inconvenient for her and decided it was just easier for her to get rid of you like a worthless piece of junk? The mere fact your even writing these posts is only because she allowed u to continue living but what if she hadn’t? U would have been one of those innocent children so many of us are fighting to save. Your one of the lucky ones, you got to have life unlike millions of others. If people can’t handle the “punishment” of a child,then do us all a favor and keep your legs closed for gods sake! It’s not rocket science!
Hannah says
If my mother had chosen to abort me, I wouldn’t have been aware of what was going on, nor would I have even known that I existed. So what would have been so wrong about that? Plus, I’ve actually wished in the past that she did abort me, since my life is so miserable. I struggle every day with severe social anxiety, depression, and Asperger’s Syndrome, among other issues, and I have no friends at all as a result. I’m 27 years old and my life is a mess due to my various disorders. So I actually wish my mother had aborted me. Is that so wrong? You should feel damned lucky that you don’t feel the same way, and you should have compassion for those who are like me and who also wish they had been aborted.
Wendy says
Dear Hannah,
Oh sweetie, how lonely you must feel. I know it’s so difficult feeling like we are always outside looking in. It’s so exhausting sometimes just trying to fit in only to be disappointed when we don’t. I used to get so mad at myself for not being able to talk like other girls/women, for my clumsiness, my loud voice I hated not being able to explain the thoughts which were so crystal clear in my mind. People treated (still do ) like I am not very intelligent though I am actually very smart. I know the loneliness and self hate you feel. I remember how it ripped
One day I hope you will realize there is nothing wrong with how you communicate with and relate to others. What is wrong is how the people react to you. I am sorry for anytime people have caused you additional pain, but especially I apologize for any Christians that rejected you. Don’t be to hard on them though they must just be starting their walk and don’t understand it yet. They actually have troubles communicating with God. The have social anxiety around people that are not like them that makes them say some really mean stuff and they think they are helping. They think they have to change themselves and convert people so God will love them more. It’s really kind of sad.
Please Hannah don’t wish yourself dead. Everyone has not just one but many, many purposes for having life. We all have talents, I believe you are very adept at expressing yourself through written word, that can change things for the better. We just can not see them when we try to change to please people. I discovered when I stopped trying to be what people wanted me to be I was able to be what I was needed to be. I still have trouble talking to adults, but children flock to me.
Hannah I came to this self acceptance through accepting and following Jesus. He showed me how He sees me. I hope one day you may also experience this amazing grace.
Love and prayers.
And I think if you read through some of Jeremy’s other blogs you may find you kind of like him. His blog is actually very much about love and acting in love towards others. I believe if he knew a woman that had had an abortion it wouldn’t affect how he treated her in anyway. In fact if he saw others condemning and speaking hate to her he would step up in her defense.
Patrick says
In the light of Bible teaching that nobody can be called a murderer or a killer without proof and how God prescribes a fine if a man causes a miscarriage as opposed to anything more severe it is clear that if a woman has an abortion it is not murder for if there is a soul there God moves it elsewhere. Calling a woman who has an abortion for any reason a murderer is hate speech and those who speak in such a way need to be hauled before the courts. They take no responsibility if a woman is murdered over their assumptions.
Chuck McKnight says
Well put, Jeremy!
Of course, this now means that you’re going to have the progressive Christians hating you as well as the conservative ones. At least you’ll have me to stick around. 😉
Lyle says
con•se•quence
noun \ˈkän(t)-sə-ˌkwen(t)s, -kwən(t)s\
• something that happens as a result of a particular action or set of conditions
• importance or value
First of all, I don’t see anywhere in the definition that consequence is synonymous with punishment. (My personal opinion is that all children are a blessing and doesn’t matter if they are wanted or unwanted.)
Secondly, why so uptight? I can tell that this is an issue close to your heart. But, why should a child be held responsible for their parent’s actions?
I believe in the sanctity of human life, moral responsibility, and the good news in the gospel. Hanna, do you have any spiritual beliefs?
Chuck McKnight says
I think you must have replied to the wrong comment.
Hannah says
Lyle, it’s not letting me respond directly to your most recent comment, so I’ll just start a new comment thread.
First of all, I’m getting really frustrated with repeating myself, so I’ll ask once more: HOW COME YOU’RE IGNORING THE LARGE MAJORITY OF THE THINGS I TOOK THE TIME TO WRITE IN MY ORIGINAL COMMENT TO YOU? Sorry for the caps, but I just wanted to make that as big and bold as possible so that you can’t just skim over it.
Second of all, the definition of “punishment” is “suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution.” Pregnancy includes plenty of suffering and pain, and you do want women to be forced through their unplanned pregnancies as a form of retribution for being “irresponsible” about having sex, so yes, you are treating pregnancy as a form of punishment. Why not just own up to that already?
Third of all, why do you care more about the well-being of a “child” than you do about the well-being of a woman who knows that going through with her pregnancy would be detrimental for her?
Fourth of all, why does it matter what my spiritual beliefs are? I’m not going to let you push your beliefs on me and try to “spread the good news” (I’ve actually heard the “good news” many, many times before and I still think it’s just as nonsensical as I did when I first heard it), so stop trying.
Fifth of all, the Bible wasn’t even thought of as being pro-life until the 1970s. So why pretend that it definitely is pro-life, then, especially when all you have as “proof” of that claim is a bunch of vague verses that you’ve taken completely out of context? You do realize that God himself condones infanticide and abortion many times throughout the Bible, don’t you? Try reading Hosea 9:11-16, Hosea 13:16, Isaiah 13:15-18, Ezekiel 9:5-7, Numbers 31:17, and Psalm 137:9.
Lyle says
You and I can argue till we’re blue in the face and maybe we’ll find common ground. For now our views are miles apart. Children are a blessing. They remind us how precious life really is and how complicated thing can get as we get older. They aren’t a punishment they are God’s loving reward.
You said that the bible didn’t advocate pro-life until 1970s. That’s something I haven’t heard before. I’m actually surprised by this because when I read the bible all I see is the sanctity of life. Maybe this has to do with the fact that this wasn’t a hot button until then. (Maybe?)
Reading the scripture that you posted made me really sad. Not for what it said but because it has been taken out of context to make it say what you want it to. Each of these scriptures tells of the horrible thing that happened to their children or the children of others as consequences for their indiscretions. It doesn’t advocate infanticide! The bible speaks of children as a blessing not as a curse. I am sorry you believe that.
Your spiritual beliefs do matter! If you don’t want my beliefs pushed upon you then why are you posting on a Christian blog? Do you know God, the God of the bible? Jesus is his only begotten son that came to cover our sins. There is only one way to be forgiven of our sins and that is through his soul cleansing blood. We receive forgiveness of our sins when we accept him as our savior. I pray Hanna that you will meet him someday.
And so you don’t have to keep asking why I’m ignoring most of what you posted in your original post is that I’m only commenting on the part that really pertains to this blog.
Hannah says
First of all, just because you think of children as a blessing doesn’t mean that every woman in the world should think of them that way as well. I mean, is it really so hard for you to accept that not all women are the same, and that some women genuinely do not want to be mothers (or go through pregnancy and childbirth at all)? Why do you seem to think it’s so wrong for women to feel that way? Can you not see how judgmental you’re being?
You know, I’m a woman, and I don’t want to be a mom at all, like ever. (And yes, I am 100% sure about that.) To me, kids are overwhelming. They’re dirty, smelly, loud, and they require constant attention. None of that appeals to me. Even the thought of being called “Mom” doesn’t appeal to me. So why do you think that I should be forced into that role? Why is it so wrong for me to live my life for myself, and to not try to force myself into a role that I’m not meant to hold (that role being motherhood, of course)?
Also, I started posting on here because I was looking in the #abortion tag on Tumblr and I saw a link to this blog post. My posting here has nothing to do with my spiritual beliefs, so why drag them into it?
Also, why do you think it’s okay for you to take Bible verses out of context and use them to support your claim that the Bible is pro-life, but it’s not okay for me to take Bible verses out of context? That seems pretty hypocritical to me.
Lyle says
You’re right not every woman is ready or wiling to be a mom. But, why should the child be punished for the sins of the parents?
Here are a couple of verses that talk about children:
Psalm 127:3-5
Psalm 139:13-16
John 16:21
Hannah says
Oh, and before you try to say that I’m just young and that my opinions about motherhood will change when I get older (as many people have told me in the past), let me inform you that I’m 26 years old (I’ll be turning 27 this year), and I’ve been sure that I don’t want to be a mom for years now. So not every woman is meant to be a mom.
Hannah says
So you think it’s okay to punish a woman by forcing her through pregnancy against her will (and I’ve already explained to you how that is, in fact, a type of punishment, since it fits the definition of the word “punishment”), yet you think it’s not okay to punish a fetus? Why do you care more about fetuses than you do about women?
And none of the verses you cited mention abortion at all, so why take them out of context and pretend that they mean that abortion is wrong?
Lyle says
Abortion mean to end a life and I believe just the opposite. All life is sacred! These verses tell of how children are a blessing so of course they don’t mention abortion just the opposite of that.
I also believe that you shouldn’t punish the child for the sins of the parent. The child didn’t have a choice in being created. Why does it deserve punishment because they are unwanted? If it was ok to get rid of the people that we don’t want then why don’t we start with terminating the homeless, the poor, or those in prison? We don’t do that because as society we believe that those people have values. So why does a child not have any value to you?
You advocate that we should have choices so why doesn’t the child in the womb have a choice? Should they be punished because they are unwanted?
Hannah says
Where in the Bible does it say that a fetus is the same thing as a child? Can you find me even one verse that explicitly says that?
And again, I will ask you, why do you think it’s not okay to punish a “child,” but it’s perfectly okay to punish a woman? Why do you care more about “children” than you do about women?
And a fetus isn’t capable of making its own choices yet. Its parents have to make choices for it. That’s why some parents choose to circumcise their baby boys, and some don’t, and why some parents choose to get their baby girl’s ears pierced and some don’t. Plus, there are a lot of people (myself included) who wish they had been aborted. Why doesn’t that matter at all to you? Do you not care about how miserable people are, so long as they’re alive?
Also, are you against suicide, even though some people simply cannot handle all that life throws at them? Would you rather that someone was forced to continue living a miserable life than that they were allowed to kill themselves? What’s the point of forcing someone to live a life that makes them miserable, anyways?
Lyle says
To answer your first question there is no bible translation that calls a baby a fetus. That terminology is new. What the bible does say in Psalm 139 is that god knew us before we were made. That is before we were in our mothers womb. So if he knew us before that he must have known us while we were in there.
Next you asked if I thought it was ok to punish a woman through child bearing. Unfortunately there are natural consequences but the same goes for most things. Some are good; like looking into the eyes of your lover or feeling blessed by God and then there are others like getting hit by a car or contracting a disease giving you only several weeks to live that are bad. Some times you just have to put your faith in something that everything will work out. I choose to put my faith in God.
Jesus has made a difference in my life. A choice like this at one time was grey but now it’s black and white. He has forgiven me and taught me to base my choices on his goodness. Would you like to know that you can be forgiven too?
Clive Clifton says
Dear Hannah, I will just answer one question about the fetus in scripture. Jerimiah chapter 1 v 5 and John ch 8 v 58.
As I have read your conversation with Lyle I hear and feel
your deep hurt. Your anger has made we breathless.
I was like that. Will you allow me to love you unconditionally. Clive
Shifera says
Hi Hannah,
I would like to answer your question : And again, I will ask you, why do you think it’s not okay to punish a “child,” but it’s perfectly okay to punish a woman? Why do you care more about “children” than you do about women?
my opinion on this is the woman is capable and old enough to understand what is the consequence of their action, and they can choose with mature understanding to do what they want to do, unlike the fetus or children, they are still pure and innocent.. would you maybe agree with me to protect someone who are weak?
Hannah says
Exactly, the men who wrote the Bible didn’t know what fetuses are. (And the fact that men wrote the Bible is important to note, since they had no understanding of what pregnancy was, nor did they even care enough back then to ask women what it was like to be pregnant; in those days, women were seen as being men’s property and their well-being didn’t matter at all.) So why do you think that those men would have understood what abortion is? (And women were getting abortions back then. They’d usually use natural means to end their pregnancies, even if those means ended up killing them. Do you really want to go back to that?)
You really need to study history. Stop ignoring every part of history that isn’t mentioned in the Bible.
Also, since when is saying “I knew you in the womb” the same thing as saying “abortion is wrong”? Seems like you’re really twisting the meaning of that verse, not to mention that you’re taking it completely out of context.
Lyle says
The idea that the men of the bible didn’t know what a fetus was I find challenging to believe because in Gen. 25:22 it talks about the children within her struggled. It talks about them as children not as the things or fetus of parisites within her. Which is why it is important to note that in Psalm 139 that God knew us before we were knit together in our morther’s womb.
I don’t think that I can convince you that taking the life of the unborn is murder. Taking a life intentional or unintentional is sin and sin can be forgiven through Jesus Christ.
I think you know my spiritual beliefs are. What are yours? Do you believe in a higher power?
Hannah says
Women could feel the fetus inside of them moving back in Biblical times, so they knew that something was inside of them, but they didn’t know what it was. So therefore, Genesis 25:22 is describing the extremely primitive knowledge of pregnancy that the people of those days had. And that verse certainly doesn’t mean anything in terms of whether or not abortion is wrong.
Also, abortion isn’t murder. The definition of murder, according to most legal dictionaries, is “the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.” Abortion doesn’t involve malice, since a woman who gets an abortion simply doesn’t want to be pregnant anymore, and does not feel any sort of ill will towards the fetus inside of her. If there were a way to end the pregnancy without killing the fetus, you can bet she’d choose that instead of abortion.
And I’m not going to tell you what my spiritual beliefs are, so stop harassing me about them. Seriously, this is going past annoying into the realm of creepiness.
Lyle says
First of all remember that you are on a Christian blog. Beings that this site is dedicated to “Till he comes” (Talking about Jesus here) I think spiritual beliefs are an open topic.
Secondly when you look at this scripture in context Rebeca knew that she was pregnant. Plus I believe that most women know that they are with child maybe not at first but they usually figure it out. So I don’t believe that the women of biblical time were ignorant of that fact.
Thirdly saying that it’s not murder because it isn’t aforethought malicious doesn’t make sense. It is premeditated homicide which means someone intends or premeditate the killing of another human being. They are choosing their selfish ambitions over the life of a child and calling it justified homicide.
I pray that someday God will reveal his glory to you. I’m going to leave you with some scripture. These are only summaries of the verses. To know God you should the bible and find a church.
Rom 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Rom 10:9 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
I’ve enjoyed our conversation. You are loved!
Shifera says
Hi Hannah,
I would like to respond your statement :
Also, abortion isn’t murder. The definition of murder, according to most legal dictionaries, is “the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.”
Abortion is a murder. Dictionary says malice: 1. A desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite.
2. Law The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another.
it is God who created heaven, earth and mankind in His own image, He does not contradict His word and His action.
Clive Clifton says
Dear Jeremy, you certainly stired the pot there, which I add is good as it enabled that very necessary conversation to take place. I’m still sat here breatless at the reminder to me of my position before the Lord lifted me out of the mire that dear Hanna finds herself, not because she has done anything wrong but because of her ignorance of the one and only God who was revealed to a chosen man Abraham and those that followed after.
God’s ultimate witness Jesus revealed the unconditional love of His Father, and by adoption, our Father, unto a hurting and perishing world.
my brethlesness is abating now, now I know what a fish feels like after it has been taken from it’s environment. I felt as I read the conversation that I was being forcibly remonved from Gods heavenly Kingdom back into the breathless world. Love Clive X
Hannah says
Oh go fuck yourself. I’m not ignorant. I’ve actually read the Bible, in its entirety, and I’ve seen just how many errors it contains. I’ve studied it and I’ve studied the history behind it, and I know that it can’t possibly be any sort of a holy book. So stop acting all high and mighty and try actually treating me like your equal. Just because I don’t have the same beliefs as you do doesn’t mean that I deserve to be pitied.
Buster says
Hannah,
I’m not a fan of the Bible, church, or religion in almost any form, neither am I republican. Most days I’m a practical atheist. What little is left of my Christianity is a vague hope that there’s something beyond this life so that death is not the end, but that’s it.
I mention this so that it’s clear i have no intention of converting or “loving” you, whatever that means. I have as much patience for that type of foolishness as it seems you do. That said, I am passionate about human life and its wrongful termination, at any age, for reasons that have nothing to do with religion, which is the reason for responding to you. Your blanket statements frustrated me and I’d like you to consider the reality that it’s not as simple as you’re trying to make it. Positions are much more easily justified when you demonize the opposing argument. Thoughtful, rational, and well intentioned people can end up on differing sides of a position.
The fetus has a unique genetic makeup that is different from both parents. It is a living organism with a distinct, individual, and separate human DNA. This definitively is the presence of human life. What changes is its size and level of development but the fact that it’s a human life never does. Left untouched, and apart from natural consequences, it will grow into a fully developed human being.
The question is not whether human life exists, but a human life at this stage of development has a right to exist. “Right to existence” presents a major philosophical and ethical dilemma. What gives us our right to exist? Consciousness, age, productivity, functionality, color of skin, nationality, gender, etc.? The answer to all of these has serious implications and history is filled with examples of people trying to define right to exists through these different means. And in no way am I hinting at “god”. The most objective, logical, and easily consistently applied answer, across all questions of ethical human life termination, is that a human’s right to exist originates with the very fact that it does exist. The dilemma is for the individual who doesn’t think the life should exist to justify their position for terminating its existence, regardless of age.
Anyways, far too lengthy a conversation to have here, but the point I want to make is that there are good reasons for being pro-life that have nothing to do with religion, and most definitely do not stem from hatred or oppression of women. I don’t think there’s an easy solution here as its an incredibly unique circumstance. But the flippant way it’s often discussed, from both sides, but here specifically in regards to the fetus, as if it’s not a human life, is outrageous. Scientifically, it most definitely is. Let’s at least treat the discussion with the amount of seriousness all human life deserves.
I compare this situation to another medical ethics dilemma: when two children are born joined and one must be separated to save the other, lest they both die. In such a situation, both doctor and parents need to choose who lives and who dies. This is considered a tragedy. Doctors will first do everything they can to save both lives, and only when this becomes impossible will they choose one.
Buster says
I left out a key word in one sentence: “The question is not whether human life exists, but *if* a human life at this stage of development has a right to exist.”
Hannah says
You know, if you give a fetus the right to life, you’re basically enslaving the woman in whose body that fetus is growing, and if she harms the fetus at all, or ends up miscarrying it, birthing it prematurely, or ends up with a stillborn baby, she’ll be charged with the death of that fetus. And, since miscarriages, premature births, and stillbirths don’t always have cut-and-dry explanations behind them, it will often be extremely hard to prove that a woman didn’t intentionally kill the fetus. The woman will have to be constantly paranoid about what she eats, drinks, and does with her life, since she’ll constantly be afraid that she’ll be charged with murdering or harming the fetus inside of her. She won’t be able to live a happy, care-free life at all. Basically, the fetus inside of her will be ruling her life.
Seriously, how can you be okay with that sort of a mindset, and how can you be okay with controlling women in that way? I understand that you care about fetuses, but why not care about women as well? (And no, forcing women through pregnancy and childbirth—which is what you’re doing, since you’re taking away the ability for a woman to choose not to go through with her pregnancy—is not caring at all, no matter how much you claim it is.)
Oh, and here’s proof that women have been arrested for miscarriages and stillbirths, before you go and try to tell me that I’m being overdramatic:
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/07/01/256823/pregnant-women-criminal-charges/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/mississippi-miscarriages-supreme-court_n_3327974.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mom-arrested-after-utah-stillbirth/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/05/29/mississippi-stillborn-manslaughter-charge-raising-fears/2369523/
Hannah says
Oh, and to respond to your comment above, no I will not allow you to love me unconditionally. That’s just creepy. I don’t even know you. Did you really think I’d say “yes” to that?
Buster says
Hannah, calm down. Do you want to have a conversation or make assumptions and accusations?
If I were to argue against abortion the way you argue for it, I would point to late term abortions, regretted abortions, or the abuse of abortion by people who use it as a form of birth control, etc. But we can go back and forth all day this way and never get anywhere. Both sides have there horror stories, undeniably.
Before implications are discussed, what needs to be determined is whether or not the fetus is a person. It sounds like you don’t think so. Am I wrong in this assumption?
What makes a person a person? This is a hotly debated topic. The reason I think a living organism with a unique human DNA is the only sufficient criterion to determine personhood is because most other criteria leaves the determination open to opinion (i.e. age, then how old?; development, then how developed?, consciousness, then what level?, etc.), and then comes the matter of who’s opinion is the authority. Either the presence of human life is life, and human life is a person, or it is not.
If it is indeed a human life then the question becomes, does this human life have a right to exist or not? Which brings us to a larger discussion about why do any humans have a “right” to exist? Do you? Do I? Why? On what basis or authority would you say that you and I have a right to exist and a fetus does not? Why is your life worth more than that life? What if somebody else doesn’t think so? Who’s right? How do we know?
I don’t really expect you to answer these questions, I’m just trying to show that it’s not as simple as you imply.
It makes sense to me that right to existence needs to *first* be determined separately from the consideration of the life the fetus temporarily depends on to survive, because the fetus itself is a separate life. Unless right to existence is linked to dependence, but I don’t think it’s possible to be consistent with this as it will have implications that go far beyond just pregnancy, nor do I understand how implications of dependence can create or nullify a life’s right to existence. If any human life has a universal objective right to exist, then it only follows that a life in the earliest stages of development does also.
Again, whether or not a life can survive is different than right to exist. To your point, can right to exist ethically allow forced pregnancy? I don’t think so, nor is that what I’m suggesting. This is a messy issue! Even more the reason to avoid polarization when discussing it. It’s not me v. you or women’s rights v. child’s rights. We’d do better to acknowledge the implications for both and take both seriously. After all, that is the reality of it.
Regardless, my point is that right to existence that is separate from opinion and applies to all human life is either real or not, and if it’s real then it applies universally regardless of circumstances across all humans. Only once this is determined is it then possible to consider when it’s ethically permissible to terminate a life that has a right to exist.
I don’t think my answer’s are perfect. It’s not a perfect world. There aren’t always perfect solutions. No matter which way the law leans, human life suffers in the issue of abortion. In some case more the unborn, in other cases more the mother. The goal should be to eliminate as much unnecessary suffering and death as possible, all around. I don’t prefer one life over the other; I wish both to be considered with grave seriousness.
There’s no easy answer. Termination of human life is not pretty no matter the circumstance, abortion or any other. It’s a tragedy.
Jeremy Myers says
Wow. Quite the discussion here.
I am not going to try to respond to every comment (as I usually do) because I am not sure I can add much to the conversation.
This truly is a sensitive and messy subject.
I think the bottom line is that if liberals want to give women (and others) the right to choose what to do with “their body” and “in their bedrooms” I think it would only be consistent to allow the rest of us the right to choose what to do with our bodies, our wallets, and in our houses. Certainly, there should be limits, but many of us are getting quite concerned that the limits are going way too far and becoming way too costly.
Ward Kelly says
Jeremy, I agree with your OP entirely, I’m just wondering about the timing. Abortion has become a “hot button” polarizing issue since it was unjustly legalized. It inflames the passions of people from the progressive left who view it as some sort of holy sacrament, to those on the right who believe it is the murder of one of God’s children. The politicians are masters of manipulating people’s emotions every election cycle so as to keep their respecting voting bases in line. They know that all their stupid actions and decisions will be ignored if they just focus on abortion. Why do you think both parties have announced that abortion would be a central theme for the 2014 congressional elections? They have failed miserably in many areas particularly with the economy, and the American people’s freedoms.
I left partisan politics and the republican party about eight years ago for many reasons, but chief of which was due to their lying manipulation of American citizens. I am extremely pro-life as I believe the scriptures make it plain that God values all children even prior to conception, but I refuse to fall into their manipulation trap that they have set for this coming year.
I feel the same way when a church is attempting to manipulate me into giving them my money. The church I am attending now never fails to mention every week the need for its congregants to “tithe”, and how they are just helping us to be obedient. Really? Every area of Christian life is dependent on obedience to God! Why then is this churches focus on only one area of obedience? The politicians are the same and yet there are many issues facing Americans. Why then do they only want to bring abortion to the pedestal around election time? If the lying, manipulating politician really had a heart for the murdered children, he would be focused on the children even when elections were not around the corner. I believe that their “pro-life” status is dubious if that is the only time they fight for the children.
Buster is correct in his attempt to ratchet down the inflamed debate. If only we Americans could recognize what the politicians are attempting to do to us when they throw down the abortion gauntlet. If we want to eradicate the holocaust of convenience, we must change the heart through God’s miracle of regeneration, not through manipulated, inflamed rhetoric.
Jeremy Myers says
Ward,
Pure coincidence? I hate what the Republicans have done to this country as well. They claim to be different than big government liberals, but are not. They want big government as much as others…. except that they want to be in charge of it.
Anyway, I had no political agenda or goal in publishing this… I had no idea it was going to be a political point for the Republicans in 2014.
Like you, I never imagine that rhetoric can get anyone to change their opinion. Only love and regeneration can do that, I suppose.
And not that I am in favor of abortion, but a very good liberal friend of mine has recently pointed out to me that many of the babies who get aborted would be born into a living hell if they went full term. Drug babies living through neglect and sexual abuse. I don’t wish this on any child either, but I have trouble saying that it is better to terminate the pregnancy.
Ward Kelly says
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/us/politics/parties-seize-on-abortion-issues-in-midterm-race.html?_r=0
Gregory A Anderson says
I have always found it interesting that for political reasons some choose to think even a married couple cannot make the decision between them and God whether to terminate pregnancy for drastic health concerns. For others, a woman’s right to choose to abort a pregnancy for any reason fails to deal with the fact that if men do not have rights regarding this decision then they have no real responsibility except as imposed by Governmental legislation. It does take two people, one male and one female, to make a human child.
So logical consistency requires that in these United States of America, and for every Christian disciple of Jesus our Lord, to judge correctly and insist that “just say no” never actually works in this world. If we stand up for life, that means Christians support life beyond the womb. If we stand for individual freedoms, we must consider how far that principal presupposition is applicable. And almost always there is a fly in the ointment once Laws are in place. We cannot mandate Christian values, they are incomprehensible and repugnant to those who are not citizens of the Kingdom of God. But we do not have to be idle.
The problem is most people do not appear to think things through, even many Christians do not comprehend they must examine themselves not only in prayer, but in contemplation of God’s self-revelation in Scripture and what His Will is for us at this moment.
I believe life begins when the sperm and egg unite, and I support quality of life not only in the womb but after birth. This means willingness to sacrifice, to really help others, to encourage folks in the faith, to be a witness. If we look and act just like the culture around us, or sub-culture, then we are just Traditionalists ourselves… no matter how much we claim to be the “new” generation.
I’ve seen in my marriage the pain of abortion, in my family the pain of a child who lived a handful of hours, of being in need and not even fellow Christians will assist in the smallest of essentials while unbelievers readily will. Think things through, for we are given a renewing mind for the purposes of being conformed into the image of the Son of God, the Logos become flesh. Thanks be to God for His grace to us; even in this life to make a difference of sorts in the culture we live in.
Jeremy Myers says
Thanks for the insightful and helpful comment. I absolutely agree that we cannot (and should not) mandate Christians values. We are not in favor of a Christians version of Muslim Sharia law…
So like you, I try to live according to the values of the Kingdom while I seek to love and serve others.
Austin says
As a progressive, I always appreciate your posts. You inspire thoughtful self-examination, and do so with a sense of humor.
Jeremy Myers says
Thanks, Austin. I consider myself more on the conservative side of things, but do try to keep things thoughtful and sometimes humorous.
Roger says
A question that has plagued me for quite a while is if heaven is everything that it’s claimed to be and if it’s the desired destination why wouldn’t Christians celebrate that the aborted unborn get to be in the place of “no tears” with Father without having to experience the burden of physical life? It seems to me to be a definite divide in theological interpretation.
Jeremy Myers says
Good question. A few things could be said.
First, not all Christians believe that all babies go to heaven when they die. There is some debate on this issue…
Second, one central value of God’s way of doing things is that life should be protected. So even IF all aborted unborn went to heaven, this would not justify the action of abortion. It is sort of a “the end doesn’t justify the means” sort of argument.
Roger says
A couple of things in response. First the “born in sin” I would suggest is a weak argument since we are talking about the unborn and also would be offensive to parents of children that died prior to birth (me being one of them). Second I think “God’s way of doing things” was first to give freedom of choice…. one of those Eden deals that we have had to live with since the fall….. with all of it’s consequences for those choices.
With that said, those that chose abortion have loads of consequences to live through, none of which that I can think of which would be positive. However to be pro-life and claim the reason is because of the “need to protect the unborn” I find ironic because of the reality of what you would protect them from….experiencing eternity with Father without the headaches of physical life. Sounds like a sweet deal to me.
Now with that said let me be clear about where I stand. I am pro-choice/ pro-life regarding these matters. I believe that women should get to choose but I also believe that the unborn life within those women should get to choose as well. This obviously then creates a moral dilemma for women because their choice to abort takes choice away from another. It’s at this point I’d say that you can’t legislate morality but is the result of knowing Father. As a result to women that chose abortion I want to show them Father through love, compassion, mercy and grace and I’ll let Father take care of the unborn. I think he’ll do a better job than humans could anyways.
Jeremy Myers says
Yes, the whole debate about whether children go to heaven or not is very difficult. I have a strange view which is not normally held by others. I believe that somehow or other, God gives them the choice the same way He gives us a choice. I don’t know how this works, and I don’t really have Scripture to back it up, but it’s my current view.
As to your stance on the issue, I think it is fair and balanced, and I like the way you have framed it.
Kevin Hansen says
This is interesting and yes a bit muddy. My view is not based on my political stance tho I’m not a fan of large government and more legislation. More laws only equals more law breakers. You can’t legislate moral issues. And yes moral issues can be debated as to who’s we are trying to inforce or instill. I am not inter step in that debate. I do believe that at a core we are created with free will. I believe my calling is to love others. I am to do that without concern for my interest or to apply conditions. I love you if you agree with me would not fit. We have the freedom of choice in this country. We do not hold a monopoly on this freedom as many countries enjoy similar freedom of choice. But what we have lost in my opinion is respect. Respect for ourselves, for each other. My proof text can be found in the thread above. We are becoming a nation of self. Self satisfying, self support and self interest. Until we can once again learn what it is to respect ourselves and others I believe these moral dilemmas will only increase. You can decide individually which issues are moral issues and which are not. My reference is broad by design.