The basic gospel message heard in many churches and found in many books in the United States can be summarized this way:
God is good. You’re not. Try harder.
Those who teach this sort of gospel message often use different words and different ideas, but the overall idea is usually along those lines.
A Misleading Gospel Message
Let me share a few phrases which you might have heard from pulpits, read in books, or even taught to others.
Jesus gave His life for you; you need to give your life to Him.
Salvation is by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone.
It’s not enough just to believe. After all, even the demons believe.
While salvation is by faith alone, true faith is not just a mental assent to a bunch of facts. True faith will result in a life of obedience to God.
To truly be a Christian, it’s not enough to just believe in your heart, you need to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord.
To really be saved, you need to repent of your sin and submit your life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
Unless you commit your life to Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ will not commit His life to you.
And on, and on, and on it goes.
These are the sorts of ideas and gospel messages that you often hear in many popular versions of Christianity.
Are Good Works Required for Eternal Life?
If you look over each of those statements, you see that all of them have something in common. Each one mentions or implies that there is more to receiving eternal life than just faith. Each one teaches that faith alone in Jesus Christ alone is not enough, but some form of good works or additional commitment to God is needed above and beyond simple faith alone in Jesus.
Isn’t it strange that while most Christians talk about how eternal life is by faith alone, when it actually comes down to what they believe and how they present the gospel, they somehow incorporate good works into the mix?
Most gospel messages today include works and commitment as part of the requirement for becoming a Christian, staying a Christian, or proving that you really are a Christian.
In my course on the Gospel, I present the exact opposite idea. I present the idea that good works are not required to earn, keep, or prove a person’s eternal life.
Let me state it more clearly: I believe that not even a commitment to obedience and faithful living is required.
Eternal life is by God’s grace from first to last, and God does not require a person to earn eternal life, keep eternal life, or prove that they have eternal life by obedience, commitment, or dedication.
If you look at all those statements in that list above (and the myriad of others that I did not list), they all require some sort of obedience, commitment, or faithful living in order to earn, keep, or prove your eternal life. I believe the Bible teaches the opposite. I believe the Bible teaches that while there is a place for good works in the life of the believer, good works have no place in earning, keeping, or proving our eternal life.
What do you think of this idea? What do you think of the misleading gospel messages above that are often found in books and sermons about the Gospel? What role, if any, do you think good works play in gaining, keeping, or proving your eternal life? Share your ideas in the comment section below!
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I know we’re saved by grace and faith. When one is born again they should want to live a more holy life.
Yes. But what if they don’t? What does this mean?
It means they haven’t understood the law of sowing and reaping or that God disciplines his children. 😀 Not to mention the possibility of squandering their lives and missing out on heavenly rewards.
If they understood this, they might want to live a more godly life!
Chuck Swindoll once stated that eternal security was actually a great motivation to listen to God. If we can lose our salvation, we can just keep “getting saved” over and over and over again when we misbehave. If we’re a permanent part of God’s family however, he can discipline us like legitimate children. I know I wanted to listen to my parents as a kid and it wasn’t because they might kick me out of the family if I was bad! Since I was a permanent part of the family, my parents could choose to spank me or make me sit in a corner and think about what I did.
Anita Lea wrote “When one is born again….” but when is one born again? Jesus said……… that which is born of the spirit is spirit…John 3:6 and that ….“The Spirit (or wind) breathes where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”….John 3:8 and ….that a spirit doesn’t have flesh & bones…..Luke 24:39
Has anyone been “born again”? or does born again only happen after the resurection & judgement? I haven’t run into any spirits…. that is non-flesh & bone beings.
Lol. Of course spirit hasn’t got flesh or bones. If you describe a person as high spirited. Your not talking about flesh or bones. But being born again and filled with the spirit is more about coming to the realisation that without God that is all you would be. Flesh and bone. Or dirt taking it to the basic ingredients. The spirit that is in us is the god implanted life that fills our flesh and bone. So in essence it’s more about coming to the realisation about who and what we really are. Which is a fresh start (born again, a new creation). Us human beans seem to be hung up with the idea of ghosts and and all the pseudo supernatural stuff. Everything in fact is natural. And in fact supernatural as well. As it is created supernaturally by God.
Be blessed there is a process he told me to stay faithful that means. Trust first pray believe do what he would do the works that he did. Heal help and love folk.even the one’s that’s unlovable that is work sometimes we cant hurt our wittness folk is lookin at everything ya do.this os ment in love not preaching. What do. I know unless. God gives it to me. Be blessed and your beautiful family.
No. I haven’t heard dont want to if it’s misleading. This is why he said to get an understanding in all your getting. People all over the ? world please get an understanding.in him today in love. Not preaching. Be blessed.
I wonder if Americans are particularly inclined to respond to this radical gospel with anger. After all, we Americans really hate the idea of someone getting something for nothing, which is exactly what the gospel offers.
Hmm. Good question. That is interesting. We American’s really are suspicious of a “free offer.” We also pride ourselves in “working hard for what we have.” But the gospel is a radically free offer.
I think this is why the gospel is “an offense”. It offends our pride.
BINGO.. IT OFFENDS OUR PRIDE. I just took the free gift and ran with it.. i did say “thank you” though.. 🙂
Christians respond to this with righteous anger because of their true concern for the souls of those who are being so deceived
Role in gaining eternal life – none. in keeping eternal life – directly none, but indirectly good works do help to keep our focus on things above. We present our bodies as living sacrifices – that’s a good work. We hold firm to the trustworthy Word – that’s a good work. Role in proving eternal life – to others, none. But as we grow in faith and see more of God’s grace pouring out through us in good works then we have both greater assurance of our own salvation and we are also of greater use to the body of Christ – so again, directly good works are not required but what is a saved life without good works. The article you linked seems misleading – it’s very difficult to make a short phrase express the entire gospel accurately. Just like listening to one sermon from one preacher could give a person a false idea of whether or not they hold to the truth of scripture.
yes. I agree. Gaining and keeping our eternal life is not based on our works. But this does not mean that good works have no point whatsoever. They do! There is huge benefit and blessing to following the commands and instructions of God in Scripture (or else why would He give them?).
I came to the same conclusions that you have in your article. I preached for 20 years in the church of Christ in a works-based Gospel and saw the failures and pitfalls firsthand. I think it’s difficult for folks to wrap their thinking around the fact that they have nothing to do with their own salvation, that it is a gift from God. They see that everything comes by hard work and at a price. What they fail to understand is that there was hard work and a steep price paid for our salvation, it’s just we weren’t the ones paying for it!
When I give a gift to someone, they don’t have to work for it or even deserve it. They can misuse it, abuse it, but it doesn’t change the gift or the giver. Whenever we get man’s work into the equation, then we have to decide what type of works and how many. And frankly, the Bible doesn’t give us any quota. This confusion would obviously lead to great doubt, spiritual weakness, and fear. It took me years to finally realize that my salvation is by faith alone, by God’s grace alone, His gift alone.
Well said 🙂
Don, I agree with Loret… well said! I am impressed that you came to this conclusion out of the Church of Christ. Many of them do have a work-based gospel, right?
If someone genuinely believes and trust on Jesus, the Holy Spirit is now at work directing and disciplining (Hebrews 12). I know it’s an attack to our sense of fair play to have someone receive something, they so malign. We’re not arbiters to judge God’s methods, gifts, or providence. Jesus was extremely clear in John 5:24, that those that believe will not face judgement and have “already passed from death to life.” Jesus knew full well that many would fall afterward, stumble, maybe even deny Him, but He didn’t rephrase His statement. Does everyone who goes “back to…carnal ways,” saved? Only God knows that answer. Those who truly believed Him are, but not all have truly believed even though they state they have.
Don, thanks for weighing in! I love how you answer that question. You are exactly right.
Don, What is the statement of Jesus that you’re referring to?
Standard gospel: “God is good. You are not. Try harder.”
Calvinist gospel: “God is good. You are not. You can’t try harder, God decided if you’ll go to hell for completely arbitrary reasons, so suck it up.”
Evangelical gospel: “God is good (the Canaanites deserved annihilation). You are not good (despite the fact that the fall is not taught in Scripture or held by most theologians throughout history). God murdered his son because God is incapable of real forgiveness. ISN’T THAT BEAUTIFUL??? (If you don’t think it’s beautiful, you’re going to be tortured in hell by God forever).”
Real gospel: “Humanity was born good, and is broken and imprisoned by principalities and powers. Jesus came and broke their chains to liberate humanity so we could reach our full potential as God intended from the start.”
Adam I believe you have found a deep truth, which Jeremy has also described. To me the fall is taught in scripture and Adam/Eve were created to be good and perfect, they also have free will. Lured by the Devil to be disobedient opened the door to being held captive by sin, the devil and death. Christ broke that power on the cross. We still have free will, but eternal life is linked to us through Christ, if we accept Him by faith. He has done everything that needs to be done so that can happen. By grace it is free to us if we choose it. I spent 30 years in Church leadership and ministry. Most troubled people who sort me out for help doubted their salvation….not good enough, not doing enough for the church, not doing their share, not tithing enough, cant tithe enough, not witnessing and so on. The tainting of the bible by dubious historical church reformers has caused much of the confusion. Knowing the truth sets you free from living a lie of works and subsequent spiritual abuse.
Grahame,
I’ve noticed the same thing. I remember one of my pastors preaching on James 2. Of course, he came to the usual Lordship Salvation conclusion of James 2. During another sermon, he mentioned that many people come to him troubled over whether or not they’re going to heaven and he spoke words of comfort at that time. I used to volunteer with the Billy Graham association. Some of the questions we got were from worried people who were honest about the fact they couldn’t turn from every single sin. When you’re a new believer, you don’t necessarily realize that EVERYONE else is struggling too. Of course, I’m also honest with myself and introspective, so I’ve struggled with the same worries and doubts. After awhile, I started thinking to myself that maybe it wasn’t the personality of those of us who worry. There seems to be a link between what the preachers teach and the number of people who worry. Hmmmmm…
Love that! And so true. So much of the “gospel” today is just about going to heaven when we die, but this is only a small part of the gospel message as it is taught in Scripture. Much of the gospel is about about how to live as true humans made in the image of God here and now on earth.
Jeremy a quick question how would you define spiritual abuse? I have few definitions arising out from the mouths of its victims, but I would be very interested in your thoughts
One of my favorite stories is about the “criminal”who was next to Jesus on the cross and he was granted eternal life right then and there. He didn’t have to earn it by doing a lifetime of good works.
Loret i like your thinking in a way the world is in this very same position and only Jesus Christ has the power to set them free.brentnz
Very true! The thief on the cross is a great example.
Yes! I was reading the story of Cornelius in the book of Acts. (Acts 10). Particularly, where it says:
” All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.” (Acts 10:43-44).
These people didn’t have to pray the sinner’s prayer, clean up their lives, turn from all sin. The Holy Spirit was already upon them while Peter was still speaking about who Christ was and believing in Him.
But is salvation by faith alone even biblical? To me it seems that it has come out of church doctrine and is not found in the teachings of Jesus himself. Jesus said seek first the Kingdom. I do believe God will forgive us for Jesus said if we forgive we will be forgiven. Also that Jesus has redeemed Israel on the cross as their King. But to be a part of Israel/the Kingdom, it seems pretty clear that a life of faith (obedience and trust in God through trials) is necessary. How can you genuinely repent if you have no intent in seeking righteousness? If salvation is only by an intellectual belief, then it is bizarre that God would decide addmittance into the Kingdom based on something as trivial as what they know. God is raising up the servants of his kingdom so they can fulfill the human project and rule over the Earth in righteousness allngside God. That requires obedience and humility and seeking after the truth, not an intellectual knowledge. Those who are not admitted will cease to exist as if there never was a God to ressurect them or give them life.
“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)
I do not believe the Bible teaches salvation by works (judgement based on the number of good deeds and laws broken). But I do believe it is based on our repentance and faith. Works will result out of a right heart, for a good tree produces good fruit.
i thought what you wrote was really good and i believe the process should be onward and upward as he is so are we in this world just to add that the word says Faith without works is dead.It isnt the works that gets us to heaven. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil to do that took greater works on his part through the grace of God
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go.
So there are two types of Works one born out of the grace of God to show that God loves us and those born of a self righteous spirit that are just dead works and add nothing to our salvation.
I don’t actually hold to “salvation by faith alone.” Instead, I hold to ‘eternal life by faith alone.” This distinction helps us with passages like James 2. There are many aspects of “salvation” which require good works. But the free gift of eternal life is 100% a free gift of God to anyone who believes in Jesus for it. And once we have this free gift, it is irrevocable.
Thanks Jeremy in my mind i am thinking saved to eternal life by faith salvation is not a good word as it has multiple meanings and not necessarily saved to eternal life so thanks for correcting appreciate it.brentnz
It’s important to differentiate between Jesus’ earthly ministry to the nation of Israel and His heavenly ministry to the church. Jesus came to Israel as their promised Messiah to bring in the kingdom that was promised to them. After they rejected Him He then (primarily through the Apostle Paul) turned to the Gentiles. If you don’t make this difference then you will have people going to Matthew 25 teaching you have to feed the poor or visit those in prison to gain or maintain salvation when the context is the future tribulation.
I spent about 5 years worrying about my salvation after reading Matthew 25. I was a lot younger than and didn’t understand the context. I truly believe the “least of these” mentioned in that passage aren’t the poor we’re feeding. I believe the “least of these” are specific people – those in the tribulation who are hungry and naked because they can’t buy or sell. This also explains why they’re naked (In 38 years, I’ve never seen a poor person who was naked because he/she didn’t have clothing) and why the “goats” didn’t give them food or clothing. We know that no one can get into heaven without believing in Jesus, yet there are many unbelievers who donate clothing and/or canned goods. So, if this passage relates to all time, it would contradict the statement that the goats (unbelievers) didn’t feed the least of these.
While it’s great when we do feed the hungry, clothe the ill clothed, etc., I see no reason to use Matthew 25 to encourage people to do so. Certainly, it’s all a part of loving our neighbor once we have eternal life through faith in Christ.
“I present the idea that good works are not required to earn, keep, or prove a person’s eternal life.”
Define “good works”. Define “eternal”.
If “good works” mean sanctification, submitting to the Holy Spirit’s leading and transforming work then eternal life will be of a different quality than for the person who resists change? In the gift analogy – if we receive the gift and don’t open it, what does it profit us?
Yes! You know that the definition of words matter! You have also hit on the key idea of profit from this gift. This is a key idea in James 2.
As these are such HUGE topics, I will cover them in future blog posts.
Hey Jeremy – this is a topic that has been really working me over lately. I’ve been a Christian for about 18 years. I’m 45 in human years, 18 years old in Christ, and I believe close to 318 in dog years. I’ve been “out of church” for about three years now. I spent a few years in a staunchly Calvinist Baptist church, where (although no one would ever say it outright) *what* you believed was the single most important evidence that you were actually a Christian. Doctrine mattered more than anything else, and of course that doctrine had to be “sound”. A proper understanding of your unimaginable sinfulness and utter worthlessness was the right foundation to understanding the majesty of God. Blah blah blah.
I read all the right books from all the right authors, went to the church building every Sunday and Wednesday, led worship for a time, taught the youth, etc. You know, involved. Fortunately throughout all that time and surrounded by all those influences, I just never could buy in 100% the way it seemed so many of my peers did. I went out with the street preaching guys and watched them use the Way of the Master street fight skills to beat up unsuspecting patrons near the downtown scene in our nearest big city. I saw the abuse and justification for authoritarianism and the damage a narcissistic pastor can inflict firsthand. I learned a lot by observing and one of the things that just never could jive for me was how so many of the “devout” people I was around who touted those so-called “doctrines of grace” seemed to actually be all about doctrine… and none about grace. And that lack of grace – true, genuine grace towards other human beings – thankfully kept me uncomfortable enough that I never could quite settle into that state of certainty so many others around me seemed to “enjoy”.
I don’t regret the three years I’ve spent outside the church building. I’ve still been seeking Jesus, and I think it is safe for me to say that I have found more of Him in the hills and the valleys outside than I did in the safe confines of a building. I woke up a few nights ago thinking about the message Jesus began His ministry with in Mark. The message often translated as “Repent and believe the gospel”. If it’s okay, I would like to share some of those thoughts I recorded just a few nights ago.
Mark 1:14-15
It was after John’s arrest that Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the Gospel of God, saying, “The time has come at last—the kingdom of God has arrived. You must change your hearts and minds and believe the good news.” (PHILLIPS)
Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (ESV)
After Yochanan had been arrested, Yeshua came into the Galil proclaiming the Good News from God:
“The time has come,
God’s Kingdom is near!
Turn to God from your sins
and believe the Good News!” (CJB)
I have heard and read many Bible teachers comment on this verse and say that we must agree with God how deplorable our sin and how utterly corrupt we are left to our own natures. Most of the time, Bible teachers use “repent and believe” in order to convince you that in order to be “right with God” that you have to abandon your former, sinful way of living, thinking, acting, and speaking to come into accordance with their theological system. Repentance and belief (to them) will only be demonstrated by the degree to which you accept their theological position; to the degree that you do not, your repentance and faith are questioned. The determining factors for one’s soul fitness (for both this life and the one to come) are most often determined by whatever eschatological (or scatological depending on your own particular point of view) lens is doing the interpreting.
But what if the liberation force of Jesus and the gospel is so much more than we “Christians” often communicate. What if many of us who claim to “follow” Jesus have completely misunderstood, misinterpreted, misapplied, and miscommunicated both the essence and the efficacy of the gospel, robbing it of its power… and in the mean time, robbing others of the benefits of its proclamation?
Repent.
And Believe.
What if Jesus is saying here, “Look, you have been told by religious leaders that you have to DO this, or DO that, or BE this, or BE that, or BELIEVE this, or BELIEVE that, or even SAY you BELIEVE, DO, or ARE these things (or, if you belong to a different denomination, then you must BELIEVE, DO, or BE these other things instead of those)… but this ALL a sham! You cannot get right, be right, make right with God (my Father or Me) based on what you do, say, believe, etc. You already are. Your act of repentance begins with believing you are already okay, already loved, already forgiven. You don’t have to do, be, believe, say, demonstrate ANYTHING to be in good standing with God. He already loves you, forgives you, and wants what is best for you. THIS is the Good News you have to believe. And once you believe it, it WILL set you free.”
Think about that. What if every stipulation we put on the gospel of Jesus – and that gospel being that God loves you, accepts you, forgives you, and even *wants* you JUST the way you are – is nothing but a man-made lie? What if every requirement is just a lie that comes from our own feelings of inadequacy, insecurity, instability, or possibly from our inability to believe that God loves other messed up people (who aren’t just like us) JUST AS MUCH AS HE LOVES US.
What if most of the problems in our relationships with other people – the way we “see” and are “seen” by them, the way we interpret their lives, actions, and/or attitudes (and inversely the way others interpret our own), the way we treat and respond to others (as well as the ways they treat and respond to us) – every single thing that each and every one of us do that damages our relationships with one another *stems* from an inherent misunderstanding of the nature and the goodness of the God in whose image we ourselves were created. The fracturing of that very first and most important relationship and the misunderstanding that WE have of our Creator may very impact every subsequent relationship we have with every other soul we encounter.
What if Jesus call to REPENT was, as much as anything, a call to “change your mind about” and “turn away from” religious systems based on oppression, condemnation, control, and hypocrisy? What if His call to believe wasn’t another religious requirement, but the key that takes off every chain of hindrance we might otherwise have in accepting God’s radical love and forgiveness? What if His call to repentance and to change our minds about something how more to do with how we think about God Himself than how we think about “sin”?
Think about that for a minute. What if the thing we most need to repent of is our idea that God is angry and hates us, that He sees us vile, disgusting creatures (Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God anyone?). What if the thing we need most to repent of isn’t the sin we are committing in our daily lives, but the sinful way in which we see and portray the most loving of Fathers, who loves us more purely and completely than any other person this world has ever known.
Paul I to have watched the baptist church I attend sink into Calvanism through the FGC. A cornerstone of their means of control is to convince you that you are worthless, utterly sinful, a mist, a vapour and you can only find absolution by coming to church each Sunday and hear the endless sermonising from the only source of truth ie the Pastor and Elders. I am glad you are free of it. Stick to your first love ie Jesus Christ….thats how i have gotten through it all
Paul repentence just means changing ones mind the choice we have is to either live for Jesus or live for ourselves.Its interesting that the preaching you mentioned was always on how bad we are and how sinful that is just condemnation and self righteousness it takes no effort to do that.It just putting people down and it is a false sense of who God is.
The preaching should be on how much God loves us and how great is his mercy for us that we would see that he cares so intimately for us that he would send his son to die for such a sinner like me.We know we are sinners we dont need reminding its knowing that we are loved and have that connection with him through his son.He doesnt condemn us because he knows we are weak but stands by us to strengthen us in our weakness so that in him we can rise up and be overcomers.Alot of preaching is still continuing to crucify Christ rather than preaching the risen Christ.He is no longer at the grave he is alive.. brentnz
Ah, but there it is again. “The choice”… either “live for Jesus or live for ourselves”. The problem (as Christine who has also commented on this thread pointed out) that “living for Jesus” is most often defined by the “religious community” (whichever religious community that might be) that you are most closely affiliated with. “Living for Jesus” is going to look radically different depending on whether you are: a seminary student, a right-wing Republican, a social progressive, a Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, octogenarian, or a fifth grader attending church with your parents. The problem is that everyone of those examples might consider themselves to be “living for Jesus” when in fact the only thing they are living for is the acceptance and approval of the religious community that they are themselves a part of. The reality is that we ALL have this tendency to go with the herd, and way more often than not what that “obedience” you are hinting at by saying “living for Jesus of living for ourselves” is defined by that particular religious community. I am suggesting that maybe a central tenet of the GOOD NEWS that Jesus was preaching was that we no longer had to live in accordance with what the established religious community defined as acceptable moral behavior. This does not mean there is no morality to the message He taught. But it does mean that perhaps the system of religion that man developed to contain the love of God and to condemn the lives of sinners are so seriously flawed that Jesus Himself had to come as God in the flesh, to both demonstrate and declare the ultimate end of such a system.
Paul blessings as i shared with Christine it is a personal relationship with Jesus when Jesus called his disciples he said follow me not the church not man.I belong to 2 churchs and i keep in touch with a couple indirectly and minister from time to time they are all different styles and different doctrines and in each of them i have people i care about they are family to me brothers and sisters in the Lord and i can go there and feel at home we sing and worship the Lord and hear the word together its awesome.I used to feel that i didnt fit in now i can fit in anywhere because where we go he goes with us.There is unity in Christ even though we may differ in doctrine.brentnz
Interesting discussion. I have been lying awake at night wrestling with the truth about what I am really seeing and experiencing. It goes like this: initially when you “join a church”, people are friendly, loving and welcoming but then it stops short. The reality for me is that I am not joining a family, but being invited to build a relationship with an organisation and to commit to that, not Christ. If you do not conform to their rules and requirements (whether consciously or unconsciously conveyed to you) you get shunned, even if you are trying to walk with the Lord, and the message that comes across is in essence: if you don’t do what we want, you are an outsider, a back-slidder, maybe not even a believer, we don’t want you, you are a nobody, not worth anything – worthless. Isn’t that the truth with false religion, folks? And it certainly isn’t family. Family is where you love another person because they have value because they are made in the image of God and valuable to Him. They are valuable just by being who God made them to be: who they are. And to love another on that basis is to reflect the Father and to honour Him, is it not? Last night I came to the conclusion I have spent my life feeling like I am not worthy to be loved and not loveable unless I let people control me and I make/keep them happy. I don’t feel loved in the church. I feel that my needs don’t matter. They are actually making me feel worthless unless I go along with their programme. Actually I feel happier and that I can be more myself when I am with the “unchurched” (ugh, how I hate that self-righteous word that people use – doesn’t it stink!). At present I lie low and don’t make waves, so as to keep the Religious Police at bay; I just don’t feel well enough to deal with the hassle. So I play the game in order to protect myself from THEM. I long to find REST in the wilderness but it is scary and lonely there and I wonder whether I will survive. Yesterday I made a decision not to join a midweek group and be up to my eye balls in bible study while my real needs continue to be politely (ever so politely) ignored while they blah blah blah on about the scriptures. I think they think meeting someone’s needs is to rope you into their programmes and projects, but actually what that does is blind people to the real needs in peoples’ lives and blocks people from forming real relationships, on the basis of who they are, in these organisations. Have you noticed how secular organisations are often based on helping the individual for who they are and because they are a human being? So I have resolved to give “religion” a rest (but not my walk with God) and go out and do therapy and find some nice restful groups and learn how to build real relationships and friendships with real people without feeling this intense sense of shame and that I do not fit in. 40 years of religious institutions will be a piece of work. My longing to be free from this is causing a lot of uncomfortable and painful doubts about my relationship with God to the point I wonder whether I am even saved at times. I am beginning to wonder whether much of, if not all of what professes to be christendom is nothing but a sham and the same deception practised by the pharisees: putting themselves in the place of God, ursurping His authority, elevating themselves above God Himself and making themselves God, pushing Him off the throne in effect and turning people away from His word and His authority, and the truth. The New Testament uses the word “anti-christ” which means, “in the place of the anointed One”. Need I say more?
I might add that the scripture clearly states that we are not to add to or take away from the Word of God. How often do we see that happening?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I understand where you are coming from. It is both revealing and unfortunate that the one place we *ought* to be able to let our guards down, be transparent and vulnerable with other people, be encouraged and loved “warts and all” is the very place we feel the least comfortable exposing ourselves in such a way. “Church” may start off that way when you are a new believer, but if you have been a believer for any significant amount of time, the expectation is that you should be “obedient” and “blessed”… and if you are not, then something must be wrong with you. I left the last church I attended after going through a divorce. Although I was the party in the marriage who was “wronged”, I discovered that things like that didn’t really matter. The church is horribly equipped to deal with people who are dealing with difficult situations in their lives, whether it is wayward teens, divorce and separation, addictions, or afflictions… when it comes to people who don’t appear to be “obedient” and “blessed” it doesn’t take long to feel like Job, surrounded by friends who are sorry comforters (even accusers of imagined wrongs).
Hang in there, Christine. Be real. Ask questions. Have doubts. Seek answers. It’s all okay. I’ve been “in the wilderness” for three years now. And Jesus is *still* FANTASTIC!
Thank you Paul for your graciousness. I reread my comments and noticed how angry they were, and felt later I needed to say sorry to Jesus for judging others so harshly. He is the judge; my job is merely to discern good from evil and follow what is right. I am beginning to see that being judgemental is probably a learned and automatic response coming from bad past experience that is not healed; some call them “bitter root judgements” that surface in this way. Unpicking it slowly with the help of His most gracious Majesty.
Christine i do feel for you for what you are going through i went through it and it was painful and distressing i felt like a doormat and people were walking all over me it was tearing me apart and i can see that you are feeling that way and its destroying you.The issue was resolved for me when i decided to seek to please Jesus and not man and i dont mean in a disrespectful way but sometimes that meant disappointing them.The pastor recently asked me to be the worship leader and i said no the main reason was that i didnt think the Lord wanted me to.I am involved with the music team with the singing and in this role i can actually reach more people.The Lord must come first before any person or organisation the word says love the Lord with all your heart mind and strength and love others as yourself.Even if that means being excluded or misunderstood it doesnt mean that the Lord has rejected us.I feel at the moment you are on the verge of a breakthrough the Lord is bringing to the surface issues that you have suppressed.It is always painful when he allows these things to surface i went through to the point of brokenness i lost my confidence even questioned who i am i had feelings of unworthiness uselessness and hopelessness. Until i got to the place where i realised my identity is in Christ not in what i do and so i put him first that has radically changed my life and i am much closer to him than i ever was.May God bless you and show you what he wants you to do just trust him tell him that you cant do it thats important because the flesh wants to be able to do it in its own strength and that comes from our pride we must admit that without him we can do nothing.Let go of who you were so you can become who you are menat to be in Christ.regards brentnz
Brent, thank you also for your insightful and spot-on words. I reread my words above and saw how angry they were, listened to my thinking and self talk and realised I needed to repent of playing the Judge without throwing away discernment. God is the righteous judge, not me! I can see that unhealed damage causes a person to see things in a skewed way, but the Lord is expert at unpicking the most tangled skeins. I am also seeing that striving and worry is not submitting to and trusting in the one who is the most trustworthy person in the universe, so I think the way of humility and honouring Him with my trust without needing to understand is probably the way to go and be like a child in His hands. It is about letting go; to try and take control is like wresting His Lordship from Him. It is so subtle; I am so glad His spirit reveals these things to us.
Christine you are an amazing person and i can tell by your response that you love the Lord deeply i am excited for you because i can see that you are changing into his likeness from the person you used to be.Whats exciting is that once you were affected by others and the situation around you but that is going to change instead you will be the one to change lives because the Lord is with you and he will empower to do what you cant.Do not be afraid be of good courage and trust the Lord with all your heart for he is with you i believe you are a mighty woman of faith.regards brentnz
Thank you for your encouragement.
Christine, Your sentiments are shared by many. Your replies to Paul and Brent apologize for being judgemental. The very end of your original comment may have slipped into that, but for the most part you were relating your frustrations and what you have seen. I have also seen these things, and my observation/opinion is that many “Christians” and churches seem to think their task in life is to manage the sin, faults or whatever they like to call it of other people. They pretend they have their lives 100% under control, but in reality they don’t, so maybe they think they’ll do a better job at controlling the lives of others.
By all means find and build relationships and friendships elsewhere.
Sam what if sometime you have no choice but to stay where you are even if it is difficult if our hearts are right before the Lord he helps us in our weakness that has been my situation and i give him the glory because in my strength i could not have coped i was at breaking point and he lifted me.Looking back it was a painful time but i grew so much because of that time and though i would not want to go through that again i am grateful for the lessons that he taught me.Maybe this word is for someone out there that is struggling in a similar situation.Dont give up just trust in the Lord and he wont fail you i have more trust in him than i do in myself at times.brentnz
Christine, You are asking ALL the right questions.
I wish my wife and I could sit down and talk with you about these things. We have asked many of these questions in the past, and are now in a place with more freedom and love than we ever before thought possible.
I think you are right that much of what passes for Christianity today is quite similar to what Jesus faced in His day with the Sadduccees and Pharisees. But sorting it all out and breaking free of this so that we can follow Jesus in Spirit and truth is a difficult process. Just trust that Jesus is leading you, and know that if you take a wrong turn, He will be there to pick you up and get you back on the path. And enjoy the journey! It is never boring.
Thanks, Jeremy.
I agree 100%
I tell people, that the only way to avoid been misled by the false gospel is to try and study the bible and to know the truth. It is only the knowledge of the truth that we shall truly be free. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
Brother i agree we must know the truth and the truth shall set us free that is Jesus he is the way the truth the life having a personal relationship with Christ and his holy spirit cements it all together if we are following him with all our hearts we will not be lead into deception.Not only that when he returns we will not be caught sleeping.For those who do not walk in the truth he shall return like a thief in the night and they will be left behind thats a wake up call to his people.brentnz
Its hard to escape 1700 yrs of institutional church history and belief systems (rules, regulations, systems, Priest system etc). Sadly Christine’s struggle is repeated all round the western world. I found in my case to avoid the unwanted attention of the Church Police is to slowly fade out of ministry roles, obligations, and attendance. In essence you become faceless. I have tried the other way ie stand against it and the un-Christ like behavior. Eventually the persecution wears you down. In the end I asked myself this question. Where is Christ standing, in this 4 walls and roof (a particular church) or outside knocking on the door asking us to come out and be what He wants us to be. Im now outside along with my family, best its been for many years and doing what Christ has called me to be. Its still hard because you go through withdrawal from the institution. Its takes over a year or more to get it out of your system.
yes, it is so hard. That withdrawal period is difficult, but is important and necessary. Thanks for helping with Christine’s questions above.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you? But when I here believers talk about “Grace,” it comes across as cheap. A free ride. In my view grace through faith implies action. Grace is a gift that comes to us if we accept it through faith.
I think Dietrich Bonhoeffer sums grace up well. Here is the link.
http://caffeinatedthoughts.com/2010/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-cheap-grace-vs-costly-grace/
Howard excellent article by bonhoeffer on grace, it isnt cheap we were bought at a price we were slaves and he bought us and Jesus paid for each of us in full and then gave us our freedom.It was given by him freely because we didnt have the means to pay him even if we worked a lifetime it still wouldnt be enough.To me it is a crime to accept his grace without giving him all of our hearts in return.That is the least we could do.brentnz
Yes, grace is free for us, but costly for God. He paid it all, so we can pay nothing.
What about the hymn “Trust and Obey”?
In the last paragraph Jeremy asked “What do you think?” three times. In Luke 6:46, Jesus asked “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say?” I think that doing good isn’t the issue. I think that the issue is doing what Jesus said. In Matthew 7:21-23, “many” list their good works and are turned away. In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus listed good works that reflect what He said in Matthew 7:12. Jesus tells us that not doing these gets you sent away while doing these gets you into the kingdom.
Roy,
Grahamme and Neville have weighed in below, but let me just add my own 2 cents as well.
I see a difference between entering into the family of God and living as God wants us to live within the family. We enter into the family by receiving God’s life, eternal life, by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
Once we are in the family, God asks us to live a certain way. We can, of course, refuse and rebel, and if we do so there will be consequences, but no matter what, God will not kick us out of His family.
The passages you mention above (and below) are all about how to live within God’s family. They are discipleship verses, not verses about how to receive eternal life (which is what I was writing about in my post).
Roy the verses u mention “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
In my understanding the Greek for lawlessness is basically unsaved, unregenerated, not sealed by the HS. So not saved thus not known by Christ. Deeds really arent the issue. So if you practice lawlessness is doent matter what u do, Christ doesnt know you. He knows you becasue you are in relationship with him. he is your Lord and Saviour… so you do His works.
Grahame said that Jesus “knows you because you are in relationship with him”. Perhaps some one can point me to scripture where Jesus says this. But……. In matt 12:33 Jesus said that “…. a tree is known by its fruit.” This sounds like Jesus will know us by our fruit. Then… In matt 25:31-46 Jesus tells how He will separate all people based on their Matt 7:12 fruit/deeds. Also ……In matt 7:26-27 Jesus said that those who hear and do what He said are wise. Those who hear and don’t do are foolish. The distinction between wise & foolish is based on the Matt 7:12 fruit/deeds or the lack of Matt 7:12 fruit/deeds. Deeds that result from doing Jesus’ sayings are essential. It seems to me that if you are doing what Jesus said to do then you can’t be practicing lawlessness
Roy says: Grahame said that “Jesus knows you because you are in relationship with him”. Perhaps some one can point me to scripture where Jesus says this
You could consider this Roy, from John’s gospel
“In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me; because I live, you also will live. On that day you will know that I am in my Father , and you in me, and I in you. Those who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father; and I will love them and reveal myself to them ”
Jesus speaking to his disciples.
Those words of Jesus surely speak about relationships and the knowledge that comes from relationships.
Roy I think Neville has answered your concern very well. In every action I see in the NT about Christ and His followers wa about seeking out people buidling rappour and sharing the gospel of grace, forgiveness, love, mercy etc…relationships.
It seems to me that the record in John 14 is the same as that in Matthew 7. John 14:21 describes a progression. Saying that Jesus “knows you because you are in relationship with him”[Grahame] or that “knowledge that comes from relationships”[Neville] are both backwards. You are first known by your fruit[1-3] and then you enter the relationship[4-6]. “He who possesses[1] My commands and guards[2] them, it is he who loves[3] Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved[4] by My Father, and I shall love him[5] and manifest Myself to him.[6]”
I see all over the bible, the message that the great and infinite being who calls creation into existence is a person ; who wants to engage with us His creatures in a loving companionship, and to have us share in His astonishing eternal life.
It doesn’t seem to matter whether this works backwards, forwards or sideways.
We walk with Him by trust, by faith to the new heaven and the new earth which we are told will be filled with the knowledge of God.
Roy we enter a relationship with Him at conversion into salvation. Its a cross relationship vertically with Him, horizontally with others through His Spirit. We walk in the Spirit so we walk with Him. Its all free will, we align our will with His. Neville hits the nail on the head.
I ordered a book last weekend that deals with this very topic. It just arrived yesterday and I read the first chapter last night. All I can say is WOW! So far, it has been VERY good… very thought-provoking. The book is titled “The Cost of Certainty” written by Jeremy Young. I came across it doing a web search last weekend for “best books on unconditional grace”. While I haven’t read the whole book yet, it is clear where the author is coming from and what he is saying definitely resonates with me and my own experiences. It might be premature to say this, but at this point I would highly recommend it to everyone here. (You, too, Jeremy!)
Hmm. I haven’t heard of that book. It sounds good. I will have to check it out!
I can send you a copy if you’re interested. I’ve picked up a few books this past year based on reviews and recommendations of yours. You’ve challenged me to stretch my thinking on several topics, which I greatly appreciate. I’d be glad to return the favor. If you’re interested, send me an email and I will send you a book!
After more than 30 years in the church as an elder and a worship leader, I too am in a very unsettled place. Our pastor of ten years is planning his retirement exit, and people are jockeying for position to replace him. All I keep hearing is we need leadership, but in my experience, leadership has always been the problem, and not the solution. Our pastor for the last 10 years has been good, but the previous 20 years were rough. Within the first few years of attending, we had a split (which was portrayed as a church planting) but when the pastor of that church came looking for financial support, it was obvious it wasn’t. Then we had another pastor who had an affair with a woman he was consoling,(they later married) a youth leader with a porn addiction, a worship leader that had a relationship with a young girl in youth group, years before, when he was a youth leader. Elders that wanted to be associate pastors, etc.. I’ve been leading worship for 20 years, and I would never consider getting paid, but all I see in the church is people with their hands out wanting to be paid to serve God. With over 80% of our budget going to overhead and staff, I really wonder if we are doing the right thing. I imagine a church where everyone is equal, and ALL giving goes to those in our community (believers or not) who are in need. The apostle Paul did not want to be a burden on the church, but no one else feels that way. If you take away the financial incentive, I believe the wolves in sheep’s clothing would fall away. But then again, scripture is plain about what is to come, so I have to just let it be, don’t rock the boat, and remain trapped in this system of church.
Frank you are correct paid leadership is the issue. The NT talks about such people being able to support themselves. When a church pays for them then its about salary and supporting their families. You cant then lose the real reason we are their for. Empowering of all the priesthood of believers to go make relationships with diverse people, and share Christs grace. The system is man created so it often fails
Dear Frank,
Jeremy recommended a book “Unchurching” by Richard Jacobson,
having just read it myself I’m sure you would relate to what he has to say.
I grew up a very devout Roman Catholic from New York City. It was ingrained in me from a very early age, that there are four absolutes that, (as a Catholic), I must always do: 1) God must always be first in your life. 2) You must always show charity to those that are less fortunate, not because it is the right thing to do by society’s rules, but because it is in accordance to God’s will. 3) Compassion is to ALWAYS be shown to my fellow man, because God showed the ULTIMATE compassion for mankind: He gave His only son to forgive us of our sins. 4) Humility. To walk in God’s favor is to never think of yourself as being so “righteous” that you are above being reminded that He is ALWAYS in control, and if you lose sight of His grace and mercy; then you have truly lost sight of God. With that being said, I voluntarily ex-communicated myself from The Church because I began to see the total hypocrisy of religion, and I simply couldn’t stomach it anymore. When I left The Church, I began to study other religions and began to see how divisive religion truly is…even though everyone says they “believe” in God. So…while I believe in God, (more than I could begin to profess), I have huge reservations regarding organized religions and their interpretations of The Bible. I choose to believe in God only; not in the corruption of religion. I’d honestly like to learn The Bible; not from a religion point of view…but; from God’s point of view.
M.d religion is about man there is alot of man in the evangelical church as well as other churchs however the Holy spirit is the one we lean on to teach us Gods word he reveals the scriptures just as though Jesus was teaching his disciples in his day.Often after speaking in parable his disciples would ask what he meant and he would give them insight into the messages.I find for me if i struggle understanding a topic i ask the holy spirit to help me if you havent received him just invite him into your life if you have already confessed Jesus as your Lord and savior.We cannot live a christian life without him.He is the one who empowers us to live righteously rather than according to our old nature.In the last year or so he has been showing me extraordinary insight into the word its new its fresh he is amazing.brentnz
Again I will state…I DO believe in God. I believe in Him wholeheartedly. What I have always taken issue with is the way that most religious representatives have put forth their interpretations of His word, brentz.
M.D That is why it is important to have his guidance in understanding for yourself the more we walk in the truth of Gods word the more he reveals to us.That is a key to understanding the scriptures its not about how much we know about it but how much we walk in it.Then the word becomes living and real and people should see Jesus in us.brentnz
It is okay to have major reservations about organized religion. I have many such reservations myself. It is entirely possible (maybe even preferable!) to follow Jesus outside of organized religion. I think you are asking all the right questions.
Please note that as far as eternal life is concerned, it is not enough to just believe in God. Jesus stated that we are to believe in HIM for eternal life. Jesus is God, of course, but we have eternal life through Jesus.
While I feel Jeremy has something important to say I wonder how he squares some of his conclusions with the Mathew Final Judgement account where clearly what the souls has done is the only criteria mentioned
Yes, I am not denying the importance of faithful living and obedience. I am simply saying that the offer of eternal life is a free gift of God to anyone who will receive it through faith in Jesus Christ.
What is the “Mathew Final Judgement account” you are referencing?
Matt 25:31-46
The context is the Tribulation. Nations will be judged based on how they treated the Jews during the Tribulation. Matthew 25 doesn’t doctrinally apply to Christians. It’s good to minister to the poor or be involved in a prison ministry, but these things don’t save you or keep you saved.
That’s quite a leap, all nations are gathered but the people are judged as individuals and unless you believe in rapture and Christians gone then they are also in said nations. While I don’t believe our deeds will save us alone there is more than enough evidence that deeds have a place the issue is what place.
I believe Jeremy is spot on with his comments. The Gospel is “Good News”. Adding works to the gospel makes it “BAD News”. Most churches today are adding works -exactly what Paul warned of in Galatians.
Many of you seem to be struggling to understand to main things.
1. What is the Gospel?
2. What does the bible mean by the word repent? – or what is repentance?
Most of the confusion of the Gospel message comes from the misunderstanding of the word repentance. Once you understand “biblical” repentance – the gospel becomes really clear and simple, and better yet – GOOD NEWS!
Dr. Tom Cucuzza explains “Biblical” Repentance here in these two videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV6FaRd4Hj8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9OgHf2d-zw
Links to Dr. Cucuzza’s booklet on “Repentance”
https://expreacherman.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cucuzza-repentance-booklet-pdf.pdf
Enjoy.
In one point you make, you say that the cliche is and I quote “To truly be a Christian, it’s not enough to just believe in your heart, you need to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord.” Well, I believe it is true and not a lie because the Bible clearly says “Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
I 100% believe what Paul is saying in Romans 10. But I understand that when Paul uses the word “salvation” in Romans, he is not talking about eternal life. I cover this in much more detail in the course, but will try to make a blog post about it sometime soon as well.
Jeremy john 3:16 is pretty clear on this that if we believe in the son we shall not perish but shall have eternal life.So to me it still reads in line with that scripture.
So i guess you arent debating that we dont receive eternal life but that in regard to the passage it is actually talking of salvation which is different from eternal life.Just to clarify for kenny as he may be confused as i was initially.Interestingly i was reading that there 6 elements to the atonement for sin that Chris tdid for us on the cross salvation,righteousness,holiness,justification,redemption,reconcilaition.
Some time ago there was an ad where a man in a restaurant said “My broker is E.F. Hutton and E.F. Hutton says…….” Anthony’s post on the 30th refers to what Jesus said in Matt 25:34-36, while Kenny’s post on the 31st refers to what Paul said in Rom 10:8-10. They aren’t the same, so how can this be resolved? A paraphrase of the E.F. Hutton ad would be how I’d resolve this…. I’d say: My savior is Jesus and Jesus says……“Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me.”
All these verses fall under the same comment I wrote above. They are discipleship verses for how to live within the family of God. They are not verses about how to receive eternal life and enter into the family.
When I was born again many years ago I had never stepped foot in a church and I had not even read a Bible and when I asked the question Jesus what do you want me to do? He answered nothing …..He said nothing at all! Just an all pervading silence that spoke to me so deep within my heart and I knew He meant nothing. We don’t have to do anything ….we can add nothing to what He has already done to secure our salvation but I have since done works in obedience to His leading but they are not to earn my salvation but because I want to serve Him because He has changed my heart that He may use me as He wants to. My greatest Joy is to be used in any small way ,when it is a God given appointment it is not my own works. My own works fail , my own words bounce off of people but when The Lord is at work through me I can sense the authority of God is breaking down barriers in the hearers hearts and minds and I know the scales are falling from the blind eyes. Nothing is impossible for Him and He alone has the words of eternal life. He gives us the right words to speak into the given situation we do not need to plan what we will do or say beforehand.
Chrissy from what you have written i believe you have always had a sensitive ear to God that shows obedience and godliness that is not the norm.You must of had godly influence from parents or someone close to the family.Its shows wisdom beyond your years what you know instinctively has taken me years to learn as my heart was stubborn and hard hearted.By your words i see humility and surrender to the Lord that is a powerful testimony may he continue to strengthen you in your Christian walk and may you be a blessing and a witness to others who dont know the Lord.It shows God has no boundaries he is able to reach people in any situation if they have ears to hear.brentnz
James, the simple answer is Yes. The longer answer requires me to define the word “saved” and also to show you that I don’t believe in saying a sinner’s prayer, walking an isle, signing a card or any such “evangelistic” nonsense.
I believe what Jesus said: “Whosoever believes in Me, shall not perish, but has everlasting life.” There is nothing in the promises of Jesus about how we need to stop sinning or live a life of good works in order to keep the eternal life which He freely gave to us.
James, you’re not correct, reason being:
When you truly believe in Christ’s atoning sacrifice and trust in him, you’re sealed with the Holy Spirit and you are guaranteed your inheritance (Ephesians 1:13) That causes you to respond to Christ’s love by loving him in return and have the desire to follow him out of gratitude. You will display the fruit of the spirit as a consequence, not a condition of your standing with God. You simply have no desire to live like the devil!!!!!!!!
James says Craig that is a poor way to exegete those verses. Those verses have nothing to do with nations in relations to the End Times(or no relations)but it is in relations to individuals who are either Righteous or those who aren’t
Craig says – James, please go back and read Matthew 24 and 25 together. The context is the great tribulation. At the end all nations will be gathered together and individuals who helped the Jews will go into the Millenium kingdom and those who didn’t won’t. Its the only logical, reasonable way to exegete the passage unless you’ve already got a theological view you’re trying to cling to regardless of what the Bible teaches.
Why does this site have ads promoting the enemies of the gospel? NT Wright is ecumenical and postmodern. Islam is overtly advertised.
Why are irrelevant ads included? What does Harry Potter have to do with this blog?
I am confused.
I have links to some courses by NT Wright because I love what he writes. If you don’t like it, then you won’t like this blog either.
As for the “irrelevant ads,” those come from Google based on what you have recently been looking at or reading about online. So if you are seeing Harry Potter ads, it is because you (or the computer you are using) have recently been searching the internet for Harry Potter, or have been looking at the Harry Potter books on Amazon. So don’t be confused. This is the way the internet works.
I agree with you that we cannot earn our salvation. It is a gift given freely to us by our savior.
I would challenge however one concept in reference to this article.
The true indwelling of the Holy Spirit transforms us.
I agree that obedience and good works have nothing to do with how we are saved. However, they are a natural manifestation of the spirits that dwells inside of us.
Although each person has a story unique to themselves… The thief on the cross for example, had no time to display this manifestation, I would find it curious that a person who claims to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit would not show some evidence of this over the course of a lifetime. The fruit of the spirit is exactly that…… it is the nature of God expressing Himself through our character. When you truly have the spirit, the fruit of that will be evidence. This is not us sitting around trying to figure out who is saved and who isn’t….no, no, no ! God forbids that actually. However, God does give us some inclination that we are to use discernment in knowing whether someone truly does have the Spirit by the fruit they bear. Perhaps using this in times of selecting a pastor or a leader.. 1 John 4:1-6 would be an example of that.
Lol. Of course spirit hasn’t got flesh or bones. If you describe a person as high spirited. Your not talking about flesh or bones. But being born again and filled with the spirit is more about coming to the realisation that without God that is all you would be. Flesh and bone. Or dirt taking it to the basic ingredients. The spirit that is in us is the god implanted life that fills our flesh and bone. So in essence it’s more about coming to the realisation about who and what we really are. Which is a fresh start (born again, a new creation). Us human beans seem to be hung up with the idea of ghosts and and all the pseudo supernatural stuff. Everything in fact is natural. And in fact supernatural as well. As it is created supernaturally by God.