Imagine yourself in church, and as the service starts, a young couple sits down in front of you. You are a bit surprised to see them in church, because you know one of them from work. He is not the kind of guy you think would come to church. But here he is!
As the service starts, the worship leader invites everybody to stand and greet those around them. You do, and warmly greet the couple in front of you. The guy you know from work says they came because you are always talking about how great your church is. You are excited he came because of that, but are a little nervous because you know he isn’t the “churchgoing” type. The couple isn’t married, but is very sexually active, and they don’t have any qualms about public displays of affection. You hope they don’t hold hands or kiss during the service.
But wouldn’t you know it…as the music starts, they put their arms around each other and hold one another close. Then, after a few minutes, they start holding hands. You look around nervously. Not even many married people hold hands when they are in your church, and you are afraid how this couple’s affection will be taken, especially since you know most people know that they are not married.
During the sermon, they sit close enough to each other that they are touching, but that’s about it.
After the service is over, they turn around to greet you again, and say, “You were right! We really liked attending here. I think we will come again next week.”
What would you say to them? Who would you introduce them to? Would you tell them to not hold hands next week? Would you tell them about a six-inch rule for unmarried couples? Would you tell them that sex before marriage was a sin and God did not approve of fornication?
Oh, and before you answer, I forgot to tell you…The couple is gay. It’s two guys.
Now, with that information, what would you say?
P.S. I originally wrote this post 10 years ago! It is interesting to compare the comments that came in back then with the comments that come in today. Be part of the historic conversation and add your own input below!
Gulp! If you make condemnatory comments about their relationship and actions during the service then you can be sure they won’t come back. But if you don’t say anything there is the possibility that they will come back and somewhere along the line will believe and be discipled and will cease their relationship. The only problem with that view is that it does seem to gloss over sin. I think then, it would be ideal if one could say something to the couple in a sensitive way but if there is the possibility that saying something would make them leave for good, then one would probably be better not saying anything… I think.
But I’m not sure. Am I just swallowing the spirit of tolerance that permeates this age or am I saying something that an apostle might say? I don’t know!
Andrew,
Yeah, difficult decision. Would it make any difference if the couple wasn’t gay? If an unmarried guy and girl showed up in church, and you knew they were sexually active because you worked with him, and he told you about his relationship, and they were hugging each other and holding hands, would you say something then? Most people probably wouldn’t. But when it comes to a gay couple, many of us begin to have problems. Why?
I agree with you that I would see things slightly differently if they weren’t gay. It’s probably just underlying homophobia coming through. We are brought up to think that homosexuality is, above all other sins, the very worst. Another factor, for me at least, would be the desire to protect them from the criticism of the rest of the very fundamentalist congregation who wouldn’t be too nice to them and thus I would be tempted to say something to them about their display of affection in church.
Tricky, tricky situation! I trust God will guide you to make the right decisions and say the right things!
Blessings,
Andrew.
Andrew,
That is an excellent point! If you said anything at all, you would probably want to approach it as you have suggested. In this way, anything you say is said in a spirit of love and concern for them. I like it.
A related and interesting dilemma has come up with my wife and I right now concerning a lesbian couple who is adopting a child from Guatemala (Wendy and I are adopting a girl from Guatemala as well) and has come to us for parenting advice. Talk about a minefield! Maybe I will make a post about it later…
I don’t think it is that difficult or rare.
If they are actively engaged in immorality, it does not matter if they are heterosexual or homosexual. . . someone needs to confront them ASAP. I would definately give them the gospel during that initial confrontation, because you may never see them again. If they are totally closed to getting right with God, then I would tell them they probably should stop their sinful behavior, and that if they want to come to your church, that they need to lay off the public display because it could corrupt the people in the church. It has to be done by someone who is good at counseling not by someone who tends to be abrasive. I don’t think we should care if we offend them, as long as it is done correctly. That is up to them if they get offended by a loving rebuke. You just gotta tell them the truth.
Broadly speaking, there are 2 kinds of homosexuals who would walk into a church. The first kind are the ones who REALLY don’t think that what they are doing is wrong. They are not trying to be in your face about anything. . . they are simply ignorant, are buying into cultural relativism, and have suppressed their conciences and are carnal pleasure seekers. They are not trying to promote homosexuality itself. I am usually much more willing to actually talk to these kinds of folks. I would confront them and tell them that they are welcome to come but to nix the public display and stop sinning. I would say they need to not live with each other anymore. I would say the same thing to a guy and girl.
The second kind are the ones who know they are wrong, and who HATE Christians, and are trying to get in your face and flaunt homosexuality before everybody. If this was the case, I would ask them to leave and not come back. They are trying to convert your congregation!
It all depends on what kind they are.
– Don
Jeremy,
What a great post! I am in the middle of doing a sermon series on evangelism at my church and I’ve been challenging people to invite their unchurched friends to church. Then I ‘accidentally’ found your blog and thought I gotta “plagiarize” this in my blog.
I was gonna ask your permission first but I didn’t know how to contact you. So I took the liberty of copying this post in my blog.
The way you presented the issue is so spot on, I’m thinking of hiring a couple of actors to act this out one Sunday in my church. what do you think? 🙂
Daniel, (I got your name from your blog…)
Absolutely, go ahead and use it. I’m glad you found it.
If you could come up with a way to do this as a play, I think it would be great! But how would you do it without tipping your hand right away that the couple is two guys? Maybe you could do it first with a guy and girl, with the “observing” actors not showing much reaction, then do it a second time with two guys, and the same “observing” actors having a negative reaction, thereby revealing their “double” standard.
If you video it, PLEASE let me know, and if you post it on YouTube, I’ll link to it.
I read through your blog, and LOVED the article about Jesus being a party animal.
So, you live in Perth? What do you know about Aukland? I know it’s in a different country and everything, but you’re closer than I am. Ha ha.
Hey Jeremy,
I’m glad you approved. Phew! I’ll make sure I give you proper credit for it in my next post.
I’m not talking about acting it out in a play. I’m thinking of hiring actors and ask them to pretend to be visitors and see how the church people react. What do you think about that? It’s complicated I know, but it would be ‘fun’ 🙂
Auckland is BEAUTIFUL. I’ve been there twice to speak at church camps. It’s quite far from where I am though. About a 6 hour flight. Where are you guys located? Were you a DTS student? I was at DTS from 1996-2000. Anyways, if you want to know more about Auckland, do ask me again.
blessings
daniel
P.S. if you don’t mind, I will link your blog in mine.
If they are actively engaged in immorality, it does not matter if they are heterosexual or homosexual. . . someone needs to confront them ASAP. I would definately give them the gospel during that initial confrontation, because you may never see them again. If they are totally closed to getting right with God, then I would tell them they probably should stop their sinful behavior, and that if they want to come to your church, that they need to lay off the public display because it could corrupt the people in the church. It has to be done by someone who is good at counseling not by someone who tends to be abrasive. I don’t think we should care if we offend them, as long as it is done correctly. That is up to them if they get offended by a loving rebuke. You just gotta tell them the truth.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
The Truth is that God created them and loves them. The Truth is the Holy Spirit is the one who will convict them of their sin, and until they have submitted to the Spirit, they will be unable to receive it. The Truth is that we are responsible for holding anyone who calls himself a brother to the Bible’s standards. The Truth is that if we run them out of the building we call the church, we will be running them off from ever being a part of the Bride of Christ. The Truth is we would not be so quick to react to the greedy, swindling, idolatrous, sexually immoral, slandering, drunkard people who claim to be our brothers and sisters in Christ (or to ourselves).
Kimberly and Don,
You both make some good points, and you are right that IF this couple is confronted, it must be done with grace and love.
However, when I look at churches today, it seems that we often confuse the requirements we have for believers to fellowship with other believers with what we require from unbelievers to come and learn more about Jesus Christ and the gospel.
Sometimes, we overlook the sins of other believers because we recognize they are “sinners saved by grace” but then condemn and correct certain behaviors of unbelievers because we want to show our separation from the world. I think maybe we’ve got it backwards. Believers, because they are believers, need to be held up to a higher standard of living, while unbelievers, because they are unbelievers, can be accepted as they are.
Furthermore, if we tell unbelievers that they need to change their behavior in order to come to church or fit in with other believers, they may get the wrong idea that becoming a Christian requires changing behavior, which it does not.
Finally, if people in our church are having problems with the way certain “sinners” are acting in church, maybe we need to correct how these church members view unbelievers, rather than ask unbelievers to conform to the lifestyle expectations of believers.
Certainly, if a person or a couple was coming to church to intentionally cause problems, they would have to be dealt with and asked not to return. But my experience has been that I get this more from legalistic Christians than I do from unbelievers.
Anyway, thanks for your comments! Let’s keep dialoguing about this.
Daniel,
yes, please add my blog to yours. I will return the favor and add you to my blogroll.
Regarding hiring actors to “perform” this in your church, it might be a good idea. Will you do it over the course of a few Sundays? Like the first sunday, have a heterosexual couple display some affection, and see what kind of response you get, and then the second sunday have a “homosexual” couple display some affection to see if there is a different response?
I told my wife about your idea, and she LOVED it. She though you could even do other “sins” like having two women gossip, and see if anybody in the church corrects them or passes it on instead.
But all of this is getting into some dangerous territory. I read of one church here in the states a few years ago that got some fake terrorists to come into their church and threaten everybody with guns that if they didn’t recant their faith in Jesus, they would be shot. I think the church got sued.
Anyway, let me know what you do, and how it goes! Be discerning!
Kimberly and Don,
Wow! I’d like to “lay hands” on both of you right now. It would be an experience that would purify your soul and change your minds forever!
I’m gonna bite my tongue on this one…I can feel my face getting hotter and hotter.
“You can safely assume that you’ve created a God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ~ Anne Lamott
I’d rather hang out with the LGBT folks ANYDAY before I’d hang out with a group of church-goers that have forgotten and dismissed the call of a loving, compassionate, gracious Christ.
“Furthermore, if we tell unbelievers that they need to change their behavior in order to come to church or fit in with other believers, they may get the wrong idea that becoming a Christian requires changing behavior, which it does not.” –Thank you, Jeremy.
So that I don’t come off as simply a squabbler, let me add something positive to help those that have never met, known, or spent “real” time with a homosexual but insist on formulating opinions nonetheless.
It’s 32 minutes long and if you’re not gonna watch the whole thing then don’t even bother. And if you can’t be bothered then you know what you can do with your opinions about the LGBT community.
http://goo.gl/z9AKp
Beautiful. Powerful. Peace of Christ to you…
Bonar,
I love you man! I’m gonna go watch this video.
Thank you, Bonar for restarting this conversation for those of us who were not reading this blog four years ago!
We have many LGBT friends. We are always amused by the ignorance of Christians who feel it necessary to read or tell LGBT people what the Bible “says in plain English” (presumably about LGBT people and/or behavior). So far we have not run across a single LGBT person, including those who have never been to a church and those who follow other religions, who do not know what the so-called “clobber passages” say.
Personally, I have never understood the mentality of “Christians” who think it is their duty to decide where they think someone else stands in relation to God. I have yet to see a single instance of “telling the truth in love” where any real love was involved. When there is little or no relationship or care involved, little or no time spent getting to know the other person then I see little or no real love, only judgment.
When LGBT friends talk to us about churches, if asked, we recommend that they stay away unless they know before they go that the church is fully accepting of LGBTs and treats LGBTs no differently than the other sinners who attend that church (which would include everyone who attends that church).
Sam,
It truly is amazing how much hate has been spread in the name of “truth in love.”
That is good advice to your LGBT friends. Attending a hurtful and hateful church will do more damage than has already been done to the LGBT community.
Okay. Wow. I was screaming at folks four years too late. Now I feel kind of silly for getting so upset.
Because…….the truth is that I don’t know where I would have stood on this topic 4 years ago. Four years ago, my closest relationship with a homosexual was via episodes of “Will and Grace.” Since then, I’ve been blessed by many relationships with LGBT’s…and you know what…they’re people just like the rest of us. Imagine my amazement. And the one’s I know all have similar stories when it comes to organized religion.
I’m glad it’s not just me that has changed in the last four years. I’m glad that I see red when Christians disrespect someone for any reason.
But still…..I’ve got to start looking at the date on Jeremy’s posts. This is not the first time he’s jacked with my space-time continuum.
Yeah, sorry about that…. I have learned a lot about blogging in the past year, and am going through all my old posts and updating them. As I do this, they end up getting posted on Facebook, Google+, Twitter and some other sites.
Sorry to be confusing. I do hope that Kimberly and Don wander back here and read your comment, but I doubt they will. Nevertheless, your comment is still here for anyone else who feels the same way.
I guess what it comes back to for me is what is this couple’s issue? I honestly do not believe that the issue is sexual immorality, whether heterosexual or homosexual. The issue is sin, much the same as my issue is sin, and is the issue of most of the people commenting on this post.
I would suggest treating this couple much the way that we treat those in the church who struggle with gossip, gluttony, porn addictions, or some sort of hatred of man (homophobia, racism, classism, etc). If it is someone outside of the faith community, than you need to be loving them and being Jesus to them… if they are a brother or sister in Christ AND you have the relational credibility with them to do so, a confrontation is appropriate if you do it in accordance with scripture.
Matt, great post concerning this topic.
Matt,
I would agree with you.
But do our churches actually confront gossips and gluttons? If not, we have no business focusing on this particular sin.
It’s His church not ours! We are the body He is the head. If he invites all to come as they are will He be pleased with us filtering them as they arrive. Where do we get off as Christians or ‘church’, deciding which ‘sins’ are prioritised over others! ‘Take the plank out of your own eye so you can see clearly…..’. This is a peculiar problem with an organisation that is run by rules rather than operating in grace. How many people have been driven out of the church building and institution because of perceived sins and our narrow interpretation of scripture. Jesus ate with sinners and drank with sinners. Hey, He even died for us as we were still sinning! If you want a scripture, try Luke 15! No I’m not gay or LBTG, I’m a toe, or an arm or am I an ear! God will bring conviction and ultimately salvation to those He calls; or is it salvation then conviction? We are surrounded by the lost, they are everywhere, in fact, there are more of them than us! Most of them would’nt be seen dead in a church; or perhaps that is the only time they would be seen there. Time to decide what sort of a body we want to be. Alive with Christ or a white washed tomb!
A V Jeaye,
It truly is sad that some in the church have decided to take it upon themselves to determine who Jesus can call into His church and who He cannot.
And also the classifying of sins is a tragedy as well.
Thanks Jeremy, I think I’m in the same time warp that B Crump is in! Looks like your blogs stood the test of time though! Enjoy your work and appreciate your style and insight…. keep them coming. Cheers
A V,
Occasionally some of these old posts pop back up through comments or search results or some other way known only to the internet. Thanks for weighing in though!
Interesting that I was with you on this, Jeremy, right up to the last sentence. When we learned that the couple was gay, that seemed to change everything, and yet, if we are honest with ourselves, deep down we probably know that it shouldn’t have. The proverbial “love the sinner, hate the sin” comes to mind, but unfortunately we often seem to get that a little mixed up, don’t we? I suspect that, like with so many other things, we would only really know what we would do once actually in a similar situation ourselves. In the end, whatever we do, our actions will betray our hearts. Blessings.
Will,
We really do often get the little proverb mixed up, mainly because it is nearly impossible to actually separate the person from their behavior. When we say we hate the sin, we usually end up hating the sinner also.
I realized a while back that the whole “love the sinner – hate the sin” was a farce. I then began to see that really, we should love the sinner and hate our own sin… but the truth is, Jesus taught us to love – period. It does not matter if it is saint or sinner – love is the commandment we are given. In fact, it is the ONLY commandment Jesus gave to us, Love God and love one another.
Sin was dealt with at the Cross. All past, present, and future ones. In fact, if we can understand that all my sins were taken care of in the future as Christ died once for all… It was finished. We grow to learn to love because we were first loved by God. To make it about sin misses the point that He who had no sin, became sin, thus sin itself was judged on the Cross with Jesus. Now, sin is not the issue – the issue is what we do or don’t do with Jesus. The lie of the church is we are about “sin management”. The truth is God is the one who managed our sin through Jesus on the Cross and by the Resurrection and by sending the Holy Spirit. When we focus on sin we are not looking at Jesus but our self and miss the fact we are free from sin, forgiven, and now learn to grow from fear to be perfected in love.
Thank you for what you said Carlos. Almost all the people we know are people that many Christians would consider on the margins. Most of them would not be invited back to most churches. In fact, at one time or the other, most of them tried church and were not invited back. Usually, some members of the church group made it clear to them that they were NOT welcome to come back. Do you suppose Jesus might have showed up one day and they thought he was “one of those people” and made it clear that he wasn’t welcome to come back? Is that why “those people” never found him there when they visited?
The “hate the sin, love the sinner” is a rough translation from St. Augustine of Hippo, and is usually used in ways almost certainly not intended by St. Augustine. Personally, if I think I must “hate” someone’s sin, then it must be my own. Jesus tells me to love my brother, not to hate his sin.
Love them and get them saved- just like anyone else! Then trust the Holy Spirit, remembering that most of the time God transforms us at a pace we can handle, so it is cruel to expect a new believer to be perfect immediately after conversion. (Think about how long God put up with polygamy..) Sy Rogers has a great ministry dealing with this. He is a former homosexual, and is now a married pastor with an adult daughter. He is also really entertaining- so you won’t be bore. My kids love listening to him too!
Yes, just like anyone else.
I have not heard of Sy Rogers, but will see what I can find by him. Thanks!
Interesting.
I can see how that might make many uncomfortable. But, love rises above that.
There is no reason to shun people. Oh, sure, they can bring up that verse that says to expel the immoral man…but, that is not about this.
A previous church I was a part of was visited by a lesbian, a co-worker of one of the members. She was a – sorry – stereotype lesbian. So, the pastor was “inspired” to preach against homosexuality.
One reason of a list of reasons we left that place.
People don’t need to be shunned and certainly not singled out or made the topic of a bashing sermon.
In answer to your opening question…yes. Even if their PDA makes me or someone else uncomfortable, it is more important that we share Jesus in us with others.
Yes. Thanks for the input. It doesn’t make me uncomfortable, but for some it does. I love your point about being not being shunned. Showing love is the most important thing.
Jeremy Myers don’t those who are doing these “public displays” need to look at whether or not they may be “stumbling blocks” … blessings on ya <
Gregg Shively …the idea of a “stumbling block” is addressed to Christians who felt at liberty to eat food sacrificed to idols (1 Corinthians 8) and was not addressed to “outsiders”. In the line of logic you share, we should not allow people to talk certain ways, we should not associate with folks who drink excessively or allow prostitutes to visit our congregations. This actually is contrary to everything we read about how Jesus ministered and to whom He ministered.
Not meaning to argue…just sharing what I see.
I don’t think gay marriage is a sin. I would be completely thrilled they enjoyed the service.
A couple of thoughts:
1) didn’t Someone come into this world to save it, not condemn it?
2) the woman “caught in sin” who was brought to Jesus to be condemned, but got loved and forgiven instead. True, He told her to “go and sin no more.” But she was loved FIRST. And those who tried to condemn her were given some instruction, also.
Thanks for sharing this. No, I would not be uncomfortable. Yes, I would invite them back. Whether or not this is God’s ideal for life, we live in a second best world, made first best by the grace that we receive through Christ: by grace are we saved through faith, so that no one can boast.
Reading that you were referring to gay couple, I think it would only be appropriate to inform them that such a relationship is sinful and not acceptable in God’s sight and that they’re coming to church wouldn’t change God’s mind on the issue. I would also not hesitate to inform them that my local congregation does not find homosexuality to be God’s will and, therefore, should they choose to come regularly, they may encounter pushback against their relationship both in sermons and, perhaps, in regular conversations with others, and that they would never be accepted as members unless, in committing their lives to Christ, they give up their homosexual practice. (I would suggest, if they did renounce homosexuality, that they would attend different churches in order to avoid temptation).
Of course, whether a conversation like this occurs all at once or over time depends on circumstances and the move of the Spirit; and, while I am not a leader of any church and I’ve never encountered known homosexuals in attendance in any churches I’ve fellowshipped with, I am only imagining in general how such an encounter might transpire.
What do you think?
I read the replies to your question and it seemed to me that a large percent if the replies addressed homosexuals and sin rather addressing the question itself. The appropriateness of one’s behavior during worship service is the question. The purpose of worship service is to direct our focus, reverence and praise to God. How can you do that when you are obviously wrapped up and focused on one’s self?