Okay, okay, the title might be a little too strong. I do believe that Jesus is the righteous judge of the world and that we will all stand before Him to give an accounting, and that based on the judgment of Jesus, some will be eternally separated from God… So don’t rake me over the coals too much for that title….
I am only wrote that title in connection to Romans 8:34 due to a comment that was left on someone else’s blog about my recent series on God, violence, and evil. Here is what happened:
Peter Kirk recently posted a quote from one of my blog posts (if you do this, let me know so I can come interact with your readers!), and one of the people who left comments strongly disagreed with my ideas, and quoted Romans 8:34 this way: “Who is it that condemns? Christ Jesus…”
Whoa!
Is that a verse which says that Jesus Christ does actually condemn people? When I saw that verse, I blinked and shook my head and thought, “Really? How could I have missed that all these years?”
So I went and looked it up.
And guess what? The devil is in the dots. The problem is with the ellipses (…).
I know we all use them, but always be wary of Scripture quotations that include ellipses.
In Romans 8:34, Paul is not answering his question and saying that Jesus Christ condemns. No! Exactly the opposite. Paul is saying Jesus Christ is the only one who could condemn, but far from condemning anyone, Jesus died for us and intercedes for us! This is the only way to make Roman 8:34 fit with Romans 8:1.
Romans 8:34 should be understood this way: “Who is he who condemns? Jesus Christ is the only one who could, but He doesn’t! Instead, he died for us, and rose again from the dead, and now intercedes for us at the right hand of God the Father in heaven!”
Beautiful! Far from condemning humanity, Jesus loves us, died for us, and now intercedes for us!
Look, I know that not everybody will agree with the theory I am proposing about how to understand the violence of God in the Old Testament (see the link list at the bottom of this post).
I just have never been satisfied with any of the proposals for how to reconcile the violence of God in the Old Testament with the self-sacrificial love of Jesus. My proposal from fifteen years ago is still the only way that helps me view God the same way I view Jesus while still maintaining the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture.
While I know that my proposal wreaks havoc on many traditional ways of reading some biblical passages, please know that just as with Romans 8:34, I am aware of these texts and simply understand them in a different light — in the light of the love and beauty of the crucified Christ.
I know that the burden of proof lies upon me to show how my thesis fits with Scripture, but I am beginning to think that the real burden of proof lies upon those who want to maintain that God is violent despite all the evidence to the contrary in the life, ministry, and teachings of Jesus Christ, and especially in what He did for the entire world on the cross.
Though my thesis might be difficult to prove, it seems impossible to reconcile the bloody and violent God of the Old Testament with the loving, forgiving, and self-sacrificial God revealed in Jesus Christ. And I am not saying they are different Gods – they are One and the same! We just have to read about God in the Old Testament through the lens of Jesus and what He did on the cross.
That is what I am trying to do in this series, and I hope you will continue to stick with me through the ride! Very soon we will begin looking at some of the difficult texts like the Flood and the 10 Plagues.
How can a God who says "Love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44) be the same God who instructs His people in the Old Testament to kill their enemies?
These are the sorts of questions we discuss and (try to) answer in my online discipleship group. Members of the group can also take ALL of my online courses (Valued at over $1000) at no charge. Learn more here: Join the RedeemingGod.com Discipleship Group I can't wait to hear what you have to say, and how we can help you better understand God and learn to live like Him in this world!
I love how you guys interact with each other in such gracious ways over such controversial topics! I LOVE IT! I wish we all lived closer to each other and could hang out….
Anyway, I am not sure what the afterlife holds for those who are eternally separated from God, but I do not think it is full of torture as many church leaders depict. There are images of flames and burning in the NT, but these are often symbolic, I think, for something else.
I will try to include a section in the future on hell, but until then, don’t really know what I am going to say about it…. I suspect I may say something something similar to what Altair brought up, and the view of CS Lewis.
Ditto on the: “I wish we all lived closer to each other and could hang out…” Jeremy!
For now we will just have to wait on the Lord… for His timing and provision for our gathering, eh? Soon and very soon, we’re goin’ to see the King!
Re: your comment: “for those who are eternally separated from God, but I do not think it is full of torture”…?
Personally, I don’t understand how one can hold both of those two statements as true. For, to be separated from God (esp. “eternally”) IS (and would be) torture… for me. It would mean darkness, despair, guilt and fear, etc.
Anyway, looking forward to your thoughts (and the resulting discussion) re: “a section in the future on hell”.
No pressure, eh? Just wrap up this little O.T. thing ASAP… KIDDING!
Love you (as a bro. in the Lord), and all the others interacting,
Peace is yours,
M.
I see what you are saying. Yes, that eternal separation from God does seem like torture in a way, especially since we were created to be with God.
I just cannot embrace universalism or annihilationism…
Hi! Okay so I’ve been thinking about this topic a lot and wouldn’t it make sense that.. hell = separation from God, agreed? So when we sin we are separated from God, that’s why there are consequences to sin because it’s something we do that our Father told us not to do for our own good! But we come back to God and say wow this was a bad idea I’m sorry please help me and He’s always on board.
So why is it that God needs to send people to hell or separate from us when that’s what we even as Christians do a lot of the time? See people who live their lives separated from God are already living in a hell, they don’t get the crazy love Jesus gives and the advice (commandments) that help us find purpose.
We always preach “Jesus took all the sins of the world on the cross and paid for them” not the sins of the Christians or the righteous.. EVERYONES. We are all made enough in His image right? So if my daughter decided not to accept Christ I would gladly ask God to send me to hell instead of her because I love her unconditionally and I would rather burn in hell then let her burn in hell and that’s exactly how God feels about us, that’s why He did exactly what I just said I would do… He sent His son to die for everyone so that we don’t have to go to hell.. anyone who confesses with their mouths Jesus is Lord is saved yet it says on judgement day that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confuse Jesus is Lord so like ? Everyone will admit it so everyone is saved? The point is Jesus came to show us that we don’t have to live in this hell, in the consequences of sin in separation … we can live right now with Him. We don’t have to wait until we die to come face to face and go wow I wish I had lived differently because you had so much better for me.
And if we truly believe those who don’t believe in Christ go to hell then how can we say we’re equal and God loves is equal? Like I’m basically saying I’m a Christian and I’m going to heaven and since you’re not a Christian you’re going to hell. So in a way we’re saying we are better then others? Also the phrase Jesus used the most in the gospel is “don’t be afraid” like how can I not be afraid if people I love most who I wouldn’t advocate for who aren’t Christians are going to be thrown in hell? It makes no sense. That’s fear based Jesus not unconditional good news Jesus. Anyway that’s my 2 cents!
God loves all His children so He gives us choice.
We are spiritual beings in an earthly body. Who I was before I believed in Christ, would have been Eve. Knowing what I could and couldn’t do but deciding on the forbidden.
God is light without God is darkness.
God gave us free will to choose. That choice is light or dark. Called Heaven or Hell.
We all have the opportunity to choose to live in God and His Goodness in the light or to choose Self centered in selfishness which is darkness.
I Pray you all choose God and light because there is a time when your Spirit within goes where you have already chosen to be.
God sent Jesus to show us the Way and Truth to the light but he will not force you there if you chose Darkness.. that is actually PURE LOVE!
such good questions being asked! I also feel that separation from God IS hell. Also all of these questions raise such good points while also stirring up confusion inside of me, it reminds me that we are obligated to simplify things.. bc when we get wrapped up in debating details, we lose sight of the bigger picture.. I pray we find the oneness you speak of…
I looked up “Who does Jesus Condemn?” and it brought me here to your page. The reason I happened to be looking this up is this… I passed a church that had placed on their sign…the following…
“Was JESUS a BIGOT because he condemned certain lifestyles?!”
Admittedly, I am not one who can interpret the Gospel, nor do I have enough of a theological grasp in order to debate ANYONE. As a matter of fact I have been, physically, away from the church for many years. I was raised in Church by a very devout Christian.
When I saw this sign, my gut told me that it was wrong.
First thought…Jesus did not condemn anyone although he condemned sins
Second thought…Does this not smack of placing the right to condemn on human beings because “Jesus did it?”
Third thought… not much makes me cringe but seeing this on a Church sign gave me great pause.
Am I taking this the wrong way?
Great analysis, Bob!
And wow… you got Greek into the comments! How did you do that? I didn’t know that was possible.
I am LOVING this theory of yours. My atheist husband really pushes me up against a wall with examples of our OT God and it has really shook my own faith. He makes tremendous points and I start wondering if I have been fooled. I am not sure if you will be able to address/explain all the acts of violence in the OT, but I am really hoping you do. I am eagerly waiting.
Thank you. I am working on it as fast as as I can, but it is SLOW going.
It is very easy. Mercy demands that Justice be done. Therefore God will do what violence is necessary, even if he does not do it bluntly but rather in the like of Jesus, implies the results of error which will surely lead by the laws of necessity and response to correction, violent or not. Further, God is upholding free will by leaving plausible deniability in the air so that each may choose honestly their station rather than merely by threat of pressure. Finally, these things are precious and so are not openly stated lest they be manipulated which although having no real lasting impact would nevertheless upset God’s purposes in that more bloodshed and conflict and error would have to be allowed in order to repose the situation without it broiling out of control.
In other words, Jesus does not do violence because it is purposeful to set his example of properly used will; nevertheless, his will IS to destroy those who insist on harming the innocent, nevertheless he must allow people to freely act and show their true colors.
In all this way, God acts as the Tester of men. Indeed, He must do so, to find out who they are, and for us to find out who we are. Genuineness becomes clear only through behavior, and so people must be tested to see who stands for the innocent and who sits only for themselves.
Annihilationism makes perfect sense if you believe in a loving God. The wicked will be thrown in the lake of fire and be gone forever.
It does appear from certain verses in Rev that some will burn for a while before they are completely consumed but in the end they will be ashes. There are dozens and dozens of verses in the OT that speak to this while there is not one that hints to a hell of everlasting torment.
Edward Fudge has several good books that explain this quite clearly.
Burning for 5000 trillion years and then another and another… is incomprehensible from a God who has outlined justice for man in the OT. The worse crimes were punished with death.
Another good book is “Is there Death after Life” by John Schoenheit
I completely agree that burning for eternity is not compatible with a loving and just God. I am just not able to accept annihilationism or universalism yet.
God will do what is necessary and some only learn by torment. When they continue to choose to harm the innocent with their cruel ways, what lesson can teach them but force? If devils think they will have free reign to galavant around eternal realms without consequence, the only choice is imprisonment, chastisement, pain, or destruction. God does not enjoy inflicting pain, but He must make that choice every day when he must protect the innocent. And he will do justice, because otherwise He has let us all down.
The real question is whether we let God down, when we don’t help the ones in need, and we let the good suffer while we are indolent and demanding conformity.
Yet He has paid the price in pain, so it cannot be said that he has not paid a greater price than any who will complain that their punishment for their misdeeds is unfair. By suffering, he has redeemed all, and guaranteed that Justice shall be done, so that Mercy may fly free.
Jesus, died to show man could overcome anything this world dishes out to put an end to evil…
“Woe to you scribes and pharisees” in book of Matthew Gospel is repeated 7 times! I consider that condemnation. Notice these two groups held positions that the people looked up to for religious guidance.
It’s hard to tell Jesus’ tone in these passages. Translators have decided Jesus was cursing these people or towns by use of the term, and have even added exclamation points to their work. Yet, the term is often times used as an exclamation of grief. Is it possible that Jesus wasn’t condemning them but showing his grief at their spiritual blindness?
It is not hard to tell ‘Jesus’ tine in these passages.’ His message is clear to those who listen and understand. It is the foolish man who reads the passage and twists its meaning for comfort.
When one sees foolishness and can see the results of bad choices, there is little he can do but warn them that they are making a choice they will come to regret or simply be lost. So yes, it is a bit of pity and “y’all be crazy” because such will be ashamed that all they’ve done was waste.
Thanks for your thoughts here. I look forward to delving into more of your material. I’d be interested to hear what you think of Mark 16:16 “whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
Of course, there is the spurious passage option – yet, even then many would say its an accurate text, even if not attributed to Mark.
Do you see Jesus saying this? and meaning what by it?
This means that those who do not have faith are condemned to ignorance.
Also, those who censor others’ words they share with those in need are committing a deep sin. No one owns God’s land.
God and Jesus are one. Yet, which God required the blood of a perfect sacrifice to atone for the sins of all mankind. It’s easy to reconcile the ” bloody and violent God of the Old Testament” as you put it with the Loving Jesus of the New Testament. God demanded that we all die for our sins. His demand stood until Christ his son was sent to fulfill that demand. There they are together the bloody and violent with the Lamb.
There is a way out of eternal judgement. There is no escape from the “bloody violent” God without His Son. The Old Testament God did not disappear from the New Testament. He’s still there, even in the New Testament. Ananias and Sapphira died for lying about their offering. What God struck them down? What about Peter? He was a great apostle but he denied Christ. He got crucified upside down in his old age. God didn’t just “let” that happen he told him in advance through Jesus. John 21:18
Does Jesus condemn?
He gives them options.
The Free Will to choose.
Whether He condemns afterward, is another story.
The innocent shall be protected.
Thank you for your wisdom. I googled today did Jesus condemn people in the Bible and you came up. Your explanations make far more sense to me. Keep speaking the truth. Love and light