A reader sent an email today with these questions:
- If Jesus died in the place of others, why does everyone else also die?
- If the penalty for sin is hell forever, and if Jesus paid the penalty for all the sins of the world, why is Jesus not the only one in hell forever?
- Did God punish Jesus by making him die and go to hell, or did God reward Jesus by raising him up from death and lifting him up to heaven?
- If Jesus died on a Friday afternoon and rose from the dead by the next Sunday morning, was the penalty for all the sins of the world less than two days dead?
- If God punished Jesus for all the sins of others by making him die on a cross, why are Judas Iscariot, Pontius Pilate, and Caiaphas not all heroes and saints for fulfilling the will of God?
- If people should rejoice at the suffering and death of Jesus, as if his pain were their gain, should they mourn his resurrection and ascension, as if his gain is their pain?
- If we live because Jesus died, do we die because Jesus rose to live again?
- If people go to heaven because Jesus went to hell, do people go to hell because Jesus went to heaven?
- Did the crucifixion of Jesus cancel the sins of others, or was it really the worst sin of all?
- Would God be just if He punished the innocent in place of the guilty?
- If Jesus paid the penalty for all the sins of others, and salvation in unconditional, is not everyone saved, no matter what he believes, says, or does?
- If the purpose of Jesus was to die, why did his story not end with his death?
- If good deeds make no difference, because no one can earn salvation, why did Jesus say so much about what persons should and should not do?
- How could the penalty for sins be paid hundreds of years before those sins were done?
- If Jesus, like a scapegoat, took away our sins when he died, did he bring back our sins when he came back from the dead?
- How could Jesus be a substitute to go in our places and also be a leader and example whom we should follow?
- If we do not follow Jesus, but he goes one way so that we can go another way, how do we expect to end up where he is?
- If Jesus were God, and God demanded that Jesus die to pay the penalty for the sins of everyone else, did God commit suicide?
As I read through these excellent questions about the death of Jesus, I realized that I couldn’t answer ANY of them because I didn’t accept the presuppositions that were within each question.
For example, with question #1, I do not believe Jesus died in the place of others. I do not believe in “substitutionary” atonement.
With question 2, I do not believe that the penalty for sin is hell forever.
With question 3, I do not believe that God punished Jesus by making him die and go to hell…
And so on throughout the list of questions….
This is the problem with the vast majority of theology today. We are asking wrong questions because we are beginning with wrong ideas about God, Jesus, sin, and hell.
All of the questions above disappear when we learn just a few things from Scripture. Like what?
- God does not require punishment for sin, or blood payment to forgive.
- God is infinitely gracious, forgiving, and loving.
- Jesus didn’t die to appease God or buy forgiveness from God.
- Hell isn’t what you think…
Start with those ideas, and the way you read and understand the Bible will forever be transformed. If you want help, here are three books to get you started:
- (#AmazonAdLink) The Atonement of God
- (#AmazonAdLink) Nothing But the Blood of Jesus
- (#AmazonAdLink) What is Hell?
Enjoy!
So true! Get that straight and life just blooms!
Religious as is, put chains on us, make us slaves. It is not truth that sets us free! Lived in inadequacy most of my life! Changed my views, life is awesome.
It is great 👍🏽 to be a human, totally loved by God!
Thank God, for people like you!
I have seen lists of hundreds of similar questions. Perhaps the person who posted the questions wants legalists and those who tend to be blown about by every wind of doctrine to carefully and humbly examine what they believe.
Then there are always those who don’t want their boats rocked; who prefer to remain in their theological comfort zone. Again, maybe such questions are asked to expose the ludicrous “foundation” upon which some beliefs are religiously held to be sacred.
I doubt that the one who sent these questions was proposing what he/she believes; at least I hope not.
I used to be cultish – not unlike the Pharisees of Jesus’ day – and refused to believe anything that I didn’t want to. Only because of God’s Spirit Who works with us, patiently and miraculously, that we are able to see and reject satanic deception.
The following scripture from the MSG version is very telling and apropos to this post: “You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from me the life you say you want” (John 5:39-40).
I also want to add that because of your teachings, gifts and generosity, Jeremy, that I can now begin to see through the lens of Jesus and the New Covenant. Thank you.
The church where I used to attend , holds firmly to substitutionary atonement. I asked the preacher about the problem with this theology and was told that they doubted that I was saved.
The problem is that if Jesus had to be punished in our place, then God cannot forgive. One cannot demand punishment and at the same time claim to be forgiving. Jesus told us to pray ” forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us “. What is it we are asked to do. To not ” forgive ” unless we are somehow paid off.
The orthodox teachers refuse to deal with this anomaly. The person I spoke to , kept saying that God’s is just and demands justice. I responded that this means that God cannot forgive. He just ignored that response and kept repeating God has to have justice, God is required to punish sin.
All through the New Testament believers are asked to be forgiving and not pay back. Are believers asked to do something that God won’t or cannot do ? I don’t think so.
The other challenge that I see, is that , if Jesus died taking our punishment, are we to believe that Jesus suffered an horrific torture death because that is what God had in mind for us. Nothing in the bible says such a thing. The bible reveals that cruel violent death comes from the mind of man ( starting from Cain ).
When Jesus was before Pilate, surely this was the opportunity for Jesus to state His mission of atonement. He did state His mission, to bear witness to the truth. The truth that , violence, cruelty, injustice does not come from God but from evil spiritual forces and from man. The truth that God can bear all the violence and evil thrown at Him but after His death, He lives again because He is not guilty and He has the divine capacity to forgive. The bible say that at the cross Jesus made a spectacle of the spiritual forces, they were wrong, He was right. They were impotent hate, He was love that overcame the world.
All very true Neville. The Calvinist leader you are referring to certainly would not agree with your proposition ie non violent atonement and in fact would as you stated ….saw you as a non believer. That being said, I wonder how God views our view of Him? especially if we believe he demanded the blood of his son to satisfy his wrath towards all us sinners. In essence the list of Jeremy’s questions paints a picture of just how confused the institutional church has become over Jesus’s death and resurrection. It paints God as a angry vengeful, so why would people want to follow him. God As Jeremy has pointed out many times if a person looks into scripture and views it through the lens of Christ, these questions disappear.
Jesus also said that HE lays down his life. He wanted to lay down his life for the sheep.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. (John 10:10-11)
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10:17-18)
“The church where I used to attend , holds firmly to substitutionary atonement. I asked the preacher about the problem with this theology and was told that they doubted that I was saved.”
Well, that’s one way to keep people from asking you hard questions! Just question their salvation anytime they ask you anything you don’t want to answer…
Janna the answer you received is fairly typical and disappointing. Sometimes all you can do is move on within your own journey and be true to self
That was a response to Neville’s quote. I just thought it was interesting that they questioned Neville’s salvation when they got hard questions.
Hello Jeremy and thank you for your article here and your book. This is a tough topic and anybody who tackles it is to be commended. I want to provide some pushback to your view though. The idea that people can be saved even after they die doesn’t seem possible considering the Bible in many places describes a complete body and soul death of those who are sent to Gehenna/the lake of fire. Just for a few examples these verses below may apply:
[Hebrews 10:26-27, 39 ESV] 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. … 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
The author of Hebrews above is using the phrase “fire that will consume the adversaries” to intentionally contextualize his wording, “preserve their souls” in verse 39 above. Look below in Isaiah where the author of Hebrews is borrowing this fiery phrase from:
[Isaiah 26:11, 14, 19 CSB] 11 LORD, your hand is lifted up to take action, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame. Let fire consume your adversaries. … 14 The dead do not live; departed spirits do not rise up. Indeed, you have punished and destroyed them; you have wiped out all memory of them. … 19 Your dead will live; their bodies will rise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust! For you will be covered with the morning dew, and the earth will bring out the departed spirits.
The content of Isaiah 26 above sounds a lot like Jesus in Matthew here:
[Matthew 10:28 NASB20] 28 “And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
And then here’s Isaiah saying almost the same thing as Jesus above in regard to those who side with antichrist during the tribulation:
[Isaiah 10:17-18 NASB20] 17 And the Light of Israel will become a fire and Israel’s Holy One a flame, And it will burn and devour his thorns and his briars in a single day. 18 And He will destroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body, And it will be as when a sick person wastes away.
And then considering the content of the passages I’ve just shown, is it possible that these Thessalonians verses below are translated properly, expressing the same concept? The Thessalonians verses below are about the day of the Lord, just as Isaiah 26 and Isaiah 10 above are:
[1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 23 LSB] 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman who is pregnant, and they will never escape. … 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And then we might see James adding onto the same theme here:
[James 5:19-20 NASB20] 19 My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you strays from the truth and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that the one who has turned a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James above sounds a lot like Ezekiel here from the Septuagint:
[Ezekiel 18:4, 27 Lexham English Septuagint] 4 For all lives are mine; the way is the life of the father, so also the life of the son; they are mine; the soul that sins, this is the one that will die. ……. 27 But when a lawless person turns back from his lawlessness which he committed, and he does justice and righteousness, this one has kept his soul.
How would a person come back from having their body and soul destroyed? I can even show you how Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 and many of the other passages in the Bible have connections to annihilationist concepts. If you or your readers would like to delve into this more please see “Hell Is Made Holy” which you can find for no green by using my name David Aaron Beaty and “Hell Is Made Holy”. Thanks again for your article and book and God bless you and your readers and your ministry.
Romans 6. The wages of sin are death. Jesus died once for all.
There’s also the symbolism of the sheep and the donkey. If the female donkey’s first born is male, you have to break its neck, thus killing it, or you have to sacrifice a lamb in its place if you want to keep the colt.
Then there’s the Law of Moses. You have to sacrifice what is considered clean for the forgiveness of sins. What was the point of that if not to illustrate the necessity of the death of that which is perfect, Jesus, for our atonement?
Sheep don’t have some intrinsic purity about them. You know, God created the lamb and the pig perfectly. They’re both just disgusting animals like every animal after the fall. God told them to kill sheep to create the sense of the necessity of the blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. I mean, God didn’t put that in the Law because he enjoys watching sheep die. There’s a reason. It’s to establish the necessity of the blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin. Then when the actually pure thing came along, the Messiah, we could comprehend then why He needed to die first.
So, you may ask, why does Jesus need to come back later to rule. Why not do it immediately after His resurection?
It’s because the Father said to the Messiah, as spoken through David, The Lord says to my Lord, sit at my right hand while I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. That hadn’t happened yet.
And why would the Father even want Jesus to wait while He made the world a footstool for the Messiah’s feet?
I think it’s because the Messiah doesn’t want to have to go around the world killing everybody just to make them accept His rule. And the Father doesn’t want that either. You know, God didn’t let David build the Temple because David had to go around killing everybody to claim the lands for Israel that God promised them. So, David did not represent what God wanted people to see him as. So, God had Solomon build the Temple instead.
Do you see that? That’s what the great tribulation does. It prepares peoples’ hearts to accept the Messiah’s rule when he returns. People will be desperate because God let them do whatever they wanted without interfering. And so because God lets them do whatever they want, they choose to follow Satan for the 3.5 years it takes him to convince us to eradicate ourselves.
And that’s why people will be ready to let Jesus rule. They will become that footstool that eases Jesus’ feet up into the throne of the world. You see, a footstool is not something you beat into submission. A footstool is a tool to make things easy for you. It props your feet up so that you can easily reach high places. And that’s what the world will have become when Jesus returns. The world will be ready for Jesus to tell us which way we should go. Jesus won’t have go around killing people into submission, like King David, because they will already be ready to submit, like with King Solomon, and just like a footstool is.
If Jesus had been told by the Father to reign then, he would have had to go around killing everybody to conquer them because God doesn’t ever force us to obey. He compels us, but we can still choose to say no and go another way, and that’s exactly what people would have done, and Jesus would have been a king of blood baths. It would have been far more bloody than King David’s reign, and King David was forbidden from building the Temple because of the killing he had to do, not because David disobeyed, but because God didn’t want Himself represented in that way. That’s why God chose King Solomon to build the Temple instead. God didn’t want a war king building His Temple.
So, that’s what this whole 2,000 years thus far has been. It’s been a preparation for the Messiah’s return. You see, the world is being gathered right now back to the knowledge of God like they used to have before they became so wicked that God sent the flood. The world is being prepared, molded and constructed into that footstool that will prop Jesus up into the throne of the world when he returns. In order for us to do that, we kind of need to know something about God. We kind of need to be ready to do that. That’s probably also why the great tribulation is so short. It’s so we don’t forget what we’ve all learned through this x,000 years so when Jesus returns, it’s easy to realize that he is here to save us from ourselves.