This is a guest post by Will Rochow. He is a Bible School and Seminary graduate who served in three churches before following God away from the institutional church. However, he is more “in the ministry” today than ever before. Will is also an avid motorcycle enthusiast, and actively writes at Rethinking Faith and Church. You can also connect with Will on Twitter and Facebook.Imagine there’s no heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today
So began the classic song “Imagine” by John Lennon. As a former Beatles fan, and more specifically, a John Lennon fan, I used to love that song. I remember a time before the Lord grabbed ahold of me that I actually said that I wanted that song at my funeral one day. It’s interesting how one’s perspective changes upon meeting Jesus. Today, that’s probably the last song I’d want at my memorial.
Over this past Christmas season, my son loaned me a rather controversial book. I won’t mention the name of the book here, but suffice it to say that the author, a prominent church leader, had some pretty bizarre views of heaven, and more specifically, of hell. I wondered if perhaps the author of that book was an “Imagine” fan too. At the very least, he seemed to have quite an imagination.
To the best of my knowledge, John Lennon never professed a faith in Jesus Christ before being assassinated. However, God Himself will be the judge of that. Still, I cannot help but wonder how many other ways we sometimes “Imagine” the things of God to be. Could there really be some Christians out there somewhere who also “Imagine there’s no heaven” and who are equally convinced that there in also “no hell below us?” How many other ways aren’t we also perhaps imagining God to be that doesn’t line up with proper hermeneutics? Sometimes it all seems to me a bit like we’ve created some new kind of gospel.
A Different Gospel
The Apostle Paul wondered about the same sort of thing when he said, “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel – which is really no gospel at all” (Galatians 1:6,7; NIV). Wow, I guess some things never change.
So what is the answer? How do we guard ourselves from fanciful imaginations? How do we guard ourselves from falling for a “different gospel?”
I’m sure that there is no hard and fast rule. If one person believes that there is a formula, the next person will no doubt have issues with it. We all have our little pet verses to support our views, and they work well enough, until another person comes along with a different view. “The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him” (Proverbs 18:17; ESV).
Handling the Real Thing
Many years ago I heard an illustration somewhere that I liked, even though I cannot attest to it being correct. It concerns the government’s training of its agents to spot counterfeit money. To paraphrase it as near as I can remember, apparently the way they do this is not by working with counterfeit money as much as it is with working with the real thing. Apparently the thinking is that by handling the real stuff often enough, the agents are much more likely to spot the counterfeit when they encounter it.
Maybe that is one way for us to guard ourselves from fanciful imaginations and counterfeit “different gospels.” Maybe one reason that some people seem to have strange biblical interpretations is because they haven’t spent enough time handling the real thing. Unlike Paul’s fourteen years in the wilderness after his conversion and before beginning his ministry (Galatians 2:1), maybe they haven’t spent enough time in the wilderness before starting theirs. Who knows?
The Ultimate Question
I’m reminded of a book that was required reading back in Bible School. It was called, Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth
Were our forefathers right in their understanding of the “Disciplines,” or are we seeing ourselves as a little more enlightened than we perceive them to have been? I confess that I do not know what the answer is except to say that our spiritual walks ultimately are personal and even private. Carefully read Romans 14 and tell me if that isn’t so. The bottom line in all matters of Christianity is, are we walking in genuine love and relationships? For me, that is the ultimate question.
The first ingredient of a “different gospel” is that we have imagined that it is possible to be a Christian and not genuinely love our neighbor. If we believe that, then perhaps we can also “Imagine there’s no heaven” and “No hell below us.” That’s the way I see it anyway.
Thank you for posting my article, Jeremy. I appreciate it. May it be a blessing.
Wouldn’t it be great to have DVDs of all of Jesus’ life, especially the last three years? We’d probably all discover that whatever Gospel were following it’s a bit off.
I agree that the real Gospel begins with loving our neighbor.
Yes, I think you’re right, Sam. “It’s a bit off.” But I suggest that if we know where the “real Gospel begins,” and focus our energies there, the rest should sort itself out on it’s own. Blessings, and Thanks for the comment 🙂
Well, what IS the ”evangel”? What is it that the Angel sang at the birth of Christ? It was ”The Message of GLAD TIDINGS of great joy TOWARD ALL MEN.” Well, the ”TRUE GOSPEL” is not home-made, man-efforted ”love. It is the LOVE of Christ for ALL MANKIND and the Glad Tidings of JOY for the Atonement of ALL MANKIND, as He said it was, when He said HE WOULD ”draw (drag in the Greek) ALL MEN UNTO HIM when He rises from the dead. And so, do we not see the beginning of this when the graves opened up at His resurrection?
If I rise up, I SHALL draw/drag ALL MEN unto me.” And thus, at the end of human time, He shall fulfill the promise in Luke: “ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD”. Why? because every man is born already ATONED for (covered, sheltered in the Hebrew) and will, one by one become saved – i.e. enlightened and aware of Him and believing.
Ross,
I am not a universalist. Is that the idea you are presenting here?
What I am saying is THE MESSAAGE or evangel is NOT primarily some humanitarian ”love” but a message about WHAT Christ was to do and DID – fulfill the promise given to Abraham and symbolized in the Mosaic sacrafice: i.e. the atone and ”shelter ALL Israel, whether they believed or not in their earthly existence. It’s a Glad Evangel ”well-message” about what Jesus did, not what we do. Now, what he did was become ”the Savour of the World”, ”take away the SIN of the world”, and set the stage for ”ALL FLESH” seeing the salvation of God. This corrects the false teaching that HELL (the grave) is everlasting punishment: Rev. 20:13. AV KJV Rev. 20:13 ”And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and HELL delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
Well, apearantly hell lasts only so long as up to this Judgment Day. An everlasting HELL teaching and LIMITED ATONEMENT in NOT part of ”THE GLAD TIDINGS OF GREAT JOY” to brought to all the nations and ends of the earth. PERIOD. Thus, 90% of orthodoxy, if not ALL of it, is teaching THE GREAT LIE about human-kinds destiny. What you see in the churches today over the past 1500 years is the false gospel hatched by ROME.
Ross,
Well, I agree with all of your verses, but disagree with the conclusion. What do you do with Rev 20:14-15? It says that hell was then cast into the Lake of Fire and then, all those who were taken out of hell, whose names were not found in the Book of Life, were then also cast into the Lake of Fire.
I have my own take on this verse which is different than most, but it does not lead me to universalism. What is your take on Revelation 20:14-15?
Well, notice that ”before” people are tossed in, death and Hell are tossed in. Then the verse says, that this is the second death. So, Christ’s judgment put to death, ”death” death and Hell. Hence, from this point, there is no more DEATH period. No, obviously, Lake of Fire does not annihilate anything for the false Prophet and etc are ALREADY there seemingly very alive. OK, now ”we” just agreed that HELL is not eternal: It is based on a time frame of ”for the Eons of the Eons.” Or, ”Ages of the Ages.”
The lake of Fire is ALSO based upon this same time frame. So, once we dispose of annihilation and also the ”eternity” of a split cosmos with hell and Lake of Fire as everlasting, we are only left with either more judgments after the LAKE period or a release of all into ”The Resititution of ALL,” where we see Christ become ”HEIR to ALL”, and then subject ALL to The father, and then Subject Himself to the Father, so that the Father can be ”ALL in All.” Now, in many contexts where there is ONE subject, not two, ”ALL” means all of that ”KIND.” Hence, ”All Flesh (ALL Mankind) shall see Yah’s Salvation.
Go to my web site and breeze threw my short papers.
I spent 35 years trapped in false traditional Orthodoxy that almost led to my demise or at least insanity, until I came to this conclusion: This theology reconciles ALL doctrinal problems; and does not create them as tradition has; it gives us the true message that God wills the ultimate reconciliation of ALL that He created; and gives nothing to Satan; hence does not leave the human universe eternally split between Himself and the Infernal Liar. The greatest LIE is that GOD WILLS NOT the reconciliation of all things, which is opposed to all the verses where He made it very plain that He DID “WILL” such and will get what He WILLS.
PS. Please use the Biblical expression: ”BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM” or “Biblical Universal reconciliation.” ALL religions are not true = would be contradictory. Only ONE simple prophetic truth exists: See God’s promise to Abraham. Christ fulfills this when it is said, “He cometh to take away the SIN of the world.” he either does it or he fails, and He surly FAILS if at the end of time, one iota (or man) is left out to burn in an everlasting torment.
We could get into human responsibility later.. I prefer NOT to. I would prefer to lay the foundation for the simple promise God made to humanity, that the churches have covered up so well. Notice, God “WILLS” all men to be saved. That is why He makes it a bit of a point to tell us that ALL children belong to the Kingdom, but that they can come and go, in and out. ALL babies are born ATONED FOR, but not all people die “saved” from hell. The words atonement and salvation are two different Greek words. for instance, a ransom payer can pay a thief, or a bail bondsman can pay off a court, but the one being ransomed doesn’t necessisarily have to do or believe anything. being saved means being conscious of Jesus and avoiding going straight to the Grave, whereas, those who “especially” are believing at time of physical death go to be “immediately” with Christ. The other will join later. Maybe we shoukld coin the expression that so typifies earthly life: “Many shall go threw HELL to get to Heaven.”
I hope he wasn’t referring to “Love Wins” by Rob Bell. In my mind, it contains no views that could be labelled “bizarre”.
Bob, I’ve also read “Love Wins,” and in my humble opinion, we may have to agree to disagree on the “bizarre” part. Here’s my thoughts on that book: http://rethinkingfaithandchurch.rochow.ca/2011/12/love-wins-by-rob-bell.html
Blessings.
I have not read Love Wins…. but I might have to now!
If you do read LOVES WINS, ”PLEASE” suspend ALL definitions to Biblical Universal Atonement. Go to my page or http://www.Concordant.org or http://www.GodSavesAll.org
THEN form your opinion.
ROSS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism
I wasn’t going to bother reading it at first either, but then thought that rather than just listen to all the hype, I would read it for myself and make up my own mind on it. It was both interesting and disturbing. While some books I read more than once, I’m certain that this won’t be one of those.
I heard the book was not very well researched or defended.
Well, Rob Bell is NOT a Biblical Universalists, nor does he teach the formal version of Universal Reconciliation. The Professors I am under seem to see it as a Mish-mash of theology. It is not consistant. So, yes, it is not well researched. Too much opinion and not enough verses.The book I am writing is a well researched commentary strictly the verses that deal with the pro’s and con’s of the subject.
Glad you feel reading it once is good enough. It is a SAD thing that he gets that kind of attention, and we do NOT get the RIGHT kind of view out there. Bad impressions is what is left in our opposing brother’s minds. Kinda like the way you feel. Don’t let Rob’s book sour you on biblical explorations… ROSS
Go here for a proper Book review by one of our leading writers…i.e. one of my old Professors…
http://www.isgodfair.com/styled/styled-10/styled-22/
Taking this discussion in a SLIGHTLY different direction, I think that all of these “different gospels” hinge upon one very dangerous sentiment that has become so prevalent in the modern church today. I have come to think of that sentiment as “ear tickling”.
So many people who listen to people preach do so not because they want to be challenged to live a life of disciplined righteousness, but they do so because they want to have their “ears tickled”. They want a feel-good message. And let’s be clear: the gospel of Jesus Christ is definitely a FEEL GOOD MESSAGE. The idea that God Himself came to earth as a man to suffer the punishment for the sins of the world is a BEAUTIFUL expression of love. However, the walk of the Christian life, full of turmoil, hardships and sacrifice is hardly something that gives people the warm fuzzies. And the truth of Hell is also something that really gives some people the heebie-geebies.
But truth is hardly ever convenient. Would it be convenient for Christians if the “health and wealth” prosperity Gospel was true? Of course. I’d love to give my tithes and offerings as a seed of faith and expect a massive financial return from God. But that is hardly the truth. Would it be convenient if God neglected true justice and just opened the gates of Hell for all unbelievers to walk out and enter into eternity to be with Him forever? Sure.
In my VERY humble opinion (and let me say that I am neither a seminarian, nor a preacher, just a reader of God’s Word and a follower of Jesus Christ), salvation is something that is offered as a free gift to anyone who will receive it. However, it seems to me that this is a two-way street. Jesus has offered it, but we MUST willfully receive it. I’m not sure I can sign on for a theology that includes a wishy-washy version of God that let’s people suffer the consequences for their neglect of the Good News of Jesus Christ for a time, and then says, “Well, okay, that’s enough. Even though you didn’t call on the name of the Lord when you had the chance, I guess I’ll go ahead and save you all”. I just don’t see where that fits with the New Testament.
Anyway, I digress back to my original point. So many preachers, speakers and religious personalities have engaged what I think of as the “wussification” of the Gospel, and have turned the Gospel into a side-bar for their faux-evangelical motivational talks. One very prominent person comes to mind: Joel Osteen. Just look at his books:
“Every Day a Friday”? Wouldn’t it be better if it were “Every Day a Sunday”?
“Your Best Life Now”? Seriously, if THIS is my best life, Heaven must really not be so great.
“Become a Better You”? How about, “Become Less Like You, and More Like Christ”?
“It’s Your Time”? This title couldn’t be more self-centered.
It is these types of things that constantly remind me that we have to be on guard against such namby-pamby version of the Good News of Jesus Christ. As humans, we want everything to be about US; it’s just in our nature. But God calls us OUT of our own nature, to abandon our selfish desires and seek to be more like Christ. As Rick Warren reminds us in the first line of his book “The Purpose Driven Life”: “It’s not about you”.
Sorry, I know this post is all over the place. I tend to ramble without end 🙂
I cannot stand Joel Osteen either, but I am constantly amazed at how many people hang on his every word (and book). I think it is his smile…
But yes, there is a lot of ear tickling going on. Of course, it happens in fundamental, Bible-preaching churches as well which only give their hearers what their ears want to hear, which is more and more Bible knowledge. Even conservative congregations need to be challenged from time to time to get out and do something with all that knowledge!
I was going to say it was Joel’s impeccable hair, but his smile is awfully nice too.
Ross,
Thank you so much for your reply. I won’t hesitate to say that we are likely going to have to be satisfied with an amicable disagreement on this topic, although I appreciate your passion. I guess where I disconnect from you are the consistent referrals to Hell as “eternal” in the New Testament.
Some notable examples:
2 Thessalonians 1:9: “These will pay the penalty of ETERNAL destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power” (NASB, emphasis added)
Jude 7: “just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after [a]strange flesh, are exhibited as an [b]example in undergoing the punishment of ETERNAL fire.” (NASB, emphasis added)
Matthew 18:8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the ETERNAL fire.” (NASB, emphasis added)
I’m not sure how to interpret the use of the concept of ETERNAL except for, well, ETERNAL. And unless I misunderstand the word “Eternal”, I believe the appropriate definition is “having infinite duration”. It seems that in your view, “Eternal” indicates “having INDEFINITE duration”, which means that we just don’t know how long it will be. But INFINITE and INDEFINITE are entirely different concepts.
Please don’t take my comments as confrontational at all. My sole intent is to express my views in a straightforward manner and in brotherly love.
2 Thess 1:9
”…who shall-be-incurring ”whole-ruin” (‘olethron’) aiOnion from the face of the Master (Lord) and from the glory of-the-(HIS)-strength”
First, the Greek makes it clear it is ”ruination” and not extermination as our own CLV translates, nor ‘destruction” as in the dark-ages KJV sense of torment or annihilation. It appears to mean, God RUINS them for ”GOOD” reasons, not punitive damnable reasons.
And for how long? The word ”aiOnion”, or “EONIAN” in every verse it is used, contextually means ‘AGE-LASTING”, or lasting for certain AGES. Even the KJV translated it sometimes as AGE, when it defines ”EON” as an AGE.
Plus, HELL is NOT ”ETERNAL” contextually, as Revelation 20:13 proves.
So, IF we compare these so-called ETERNAL-HELL passages with this Revelation passage, we find a contradiction in the English useage. Either HELL eternally captivates it’s occupants, or, HELL gives up these DEAD SOULS!? You cannot have both! ”…and Hell and death gave up their dead…”
As to the fires that burned up these cities you refer to: Q. Are the fires still ranging everlastingly, or have they gone out? a Long time ago? The English mistranslates ”EONIAN” as everlasting or eternal and blatantly contradicts not only common sense but science as well.
AV Ju 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (KJV)
CLV Ju 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in *like manner to these _committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after differentother flesh, are lying~ before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian. [i.e. Age-Lasting Fire] (CLV)
Needless to say, Scriptures make it clear that the fires burned for the EONS permitted, and no further, sense the fires went out aproximately about the time of St. Paul. I believe some historians mention that those vallets were still smoldering even into the time of Christ??? But, not to THIS DAY!
So, here is a QUESTION: If the fires are NOW completely out, what does that do to the word phrase, ” ETERNAL FIRE””?
Again, in the following verse, we have the same kind of useage… = AGE-LASTING
CLV Mt 18:8 Now, if your *hand or your *foot is snaring you, strike it off and |cast it from you. Is it ideal for you to be entering into *life maimed or lame, or, having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the fire *eonian?
”EONIAN”” is a word derived from the same root as” EONIOS”, – from ”EON” or as Strongs defines it: “AGE”, and not an ”ever”, or a ”eternity”, or a ”forever”.
So, people who go to Hell, go there for a ”designated period of time”, which at the end of that period, they, as well as all other dead souls, are CALLED forth to the judgment of works. See Rev. 20:13
Study the Greek words in ALL the verses before you swallow these perverted translations.
ROSS
QUOTE:”I’m not sure I can sign on for a theology that includes a wishy-washy version of God that let’s people suffer the consequences for their neglect of the Good News of Jesus Christ for a time, and then says, “Well, okay, that’s enough. Even though you didn’t call on the name of the Lord when you had the chance, I guess I’ll go ahead and save you all”. I just don’t see where that fits with the New Testament.” –[Above writer]
I think people have a misconception about universal atonement. Atonement is what Jesus did for ALL mankind – man’s unbelief not nullifying God’s plan nor subjecting Him to our dumbness and vulnerability of not believing. ”Salvation” is of course our ‘free’ choice and only preserves us from residing in Hall for an EON, until the resurrection, when ALL the dead in Hell are called out. The whole POINT of the evangel is to let people know that it is GOOD NEWS, and that ”eventually” every man shall bow ”willfully” believing in Jesus, whether they bel;ieve now or in hell, or later at the restitution of ALL> But, yes, some people (many) will not believe now, and will surely go straight to Hell (grave) and rest there in their agony of separation, and some will repent. People are NOT CUT off at death, but still have a chance at the gospel. because, it IS Gods WILL that ALL come to this knowledge, and the DEAD must hear it too – so that ALL may acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God and Savior, and Heir to ALL. AND, God will extend the last EON (Age) until the last hard-headed man believes. Why, he does have all the time He can create to WAIT??? – IF you want to play the ”free-will” game???
ROSS