After I wrote my post about we human commit evil and then blame God for it, I found this image online. I laughed because it’s true. If God is angry at us, He is angry because we Christians keep blaming Him for everything that goes wrong in the world.
I think the thing that truly is troubling is not the fact that we ascribe these events to God’s sovereign power, but more that we ascribe them to the sins of other people when in truth we should be pointing the finger at ourselves.
Ourselves is plural.
I never realized that, thank you for pointing it out.
I was speaking generally of the need many of us share of being less judgmental, and I used the plural form because I know that there are many who agree with this – so I was speaking from that place of agreement. If you would like to exempt yourself from this, that is fine by me.
Doesn’t being less judgmental extend to self?
I’ll comment here, since I cannot reply to your last question directly for some reason. Being less judgmental certainly does apply to self – that is reflected by the acceptance of God’s grace. The point I am making about pointing the finger at ourselves (or myself at least) is that it seems out of place that we, who are all sinners, would so quickly judge others, whose motives and hearts we cannot see, when we have complete access to our own hearts, and all too often know first-hand that we are in the wrong. I really cannot tell if another person’s deeds are truly born of wickedness. If I am going to judge someone, then it should be myself and myself only. Better if I leave ALL of the judging to God, though.
Yep! As they say in Kindergarten, one finger pointing at others leaves three pointing back at you!
I get angry at my kids but I still love them.
Do you ever regret your anger?
As a young immature Dad I sometimes did regret my anger–Now ,I rarely do regret it.
I get angry or mad at my kids (18 and 19) with good reason-they have disobeyed . If I have to tell them over and over to throw out the garbage-at some point I will get angry. Do I stay angry-No.
God treats us like we treat our children because we also disobey.
Psalm 30:4 Sing the praises of the Lord, you his faithful people;
praise his holy name.
5 For his anger lasts only a moment,
but his favor lasts a lifetime;
weeping may stay for the night,
but rejoicing comes in the morning.
Does your anger justify God’s anger, or God’s anger justify yours?
Does my anger justify God’s anger??????
Maybe we need to define anger . When I get mad at my kids- I dont harm them physically or say personal things to them that cause lasting harm. I correct the situation and within minutes usually it is over.
Same with my wife and I–We rarely stay mad for long.
It is real simple –as long as people disobey–there will be the potential for anger to exist. Do I blame God for getting mad at me if I consistently do not do what he says is best for me–that would be foolish of me–correction is a good thing.
Do I understand you correctly: disobedience justifies anger. You think so because you believe God gets angry when we disobey. Therefore God’s anger justifies yours.
You don’t commit physical or emotional harm but God’s anger apparently goes as far as genocide, families slaughtered in front of each other. Do you think you get angry enough? Wouldn’t a little brutality be more godly?
Dumbstruck–do you have a kid or spouse? Have you ever been angry? Yeah,God can get angry too. So to answer your first question-yes, disobediance can justify anger. That’s just life.
Now to your point on genocide this is how I see it. God is love and he is a good and just God, I keep this point in mind whenever reading scripture.
If someone is trying to kill you and your family and they will not rest until it is done then your only choice would be to defend yourself which may mean killing those who want to kill you.
God either had evil people killed,did it himself or allowed it to happen–the point being ,these evil people had to die in order to protect innocent people.
Thank you Emilio, I know these questions are challenging. I’m not trying to annoy you. In fact I respect your honest replies. But I do see difficulties in your position. If anger can be justified by disobedience, then tyrants will rule. Does civil disobedience justify police brutality? Can America invade a country that doesn’t comply with its demands for weapons inspections or regime change? Are those without power and authority denied recourse to anger? Is the persecutions of heretics justifiable as many Christians authorities have claimed in the past?
To answer your question, yes, I have struggled with anger, and although I always thought my anger was justified at the time (anger is a reaction to something) I now regret it very much. I don’t believe Gd gets angry, and in my life I try to follow Him.
Anger is not a sin. Hate and greed yes but not anger. Psalm 30:4 says God gets angry and then we also have the example of Jesus getting angry and overturning the moneychanger’s tables.
Hate is very different from anger and we are told not to hate. One reason-murder is a crime of passion and begins with hate.
Concerning civil disobedience, all I will say is if the country’s laws are based on Godly principles then the punishment should fit the crime. Every case needs to be looked at individually.
Does America have the right to police the world? Tough question but in most cases evil men are running those countries we are at odds with and allowing them to have power would not be in the best interest of God loving people on this earth. It is man’s duty to confront evil and squash it, so in many case the USA is justified.
Should those without power be denied recourse to anger? They absolutely should not be if they are justified in their anger. I think the USA has done a good job of treating countries fairly but politics is not my thing so I may be proven wrong here and I am sure there are examples where the USA has failed in this category.
Persecution of heretics has for the most part been handled in a sinful way by orthodox Christianity and so I am thankful to God for the freedom we have to worship freely in this country at the present time..
All you have said unfolds from the belief in an angry and violent God, a belief that weaponizes religion, making it a tool of oppression, a belief that has been manipulated throughout history to justify atrocities beyond count.
“It is man’s duty to confront evil and squash it.” An excellent slogan for war recruitment. A little too Orwellian but you should send it in to the DOD. They always need more young blood to be spilt on oil fields.
Put your Bible down to search for God. You can’t see Him when you’re being blinded by a book.
Dumbstruck- You seem to have more answers than I do.
What should we do to curb crime in our society? When a man decides to murder innocent people ,what should be the penalty for his crime?
When the crime of rape and child molestation is commited–what should be the penalty for this crime?
Is this a genuine question motivated by curiosity, or a rhetorical trap? Are we dancing partners or playing poker? Are you planning to dismiss my answer as utopian so you can dodge my critique of anger and violence, or are you genuinely looking to finding another way?
I think you already know my stance on this subject but for more clarity I will answer my own question.
I think the death penalty is the answer for those that commit crimes such as murder. I think God views the taking of someone else’s life to be so precious that it can only be paid for with another life and I believe that is exactly what the bible teaches.
Yes ,I am curious as to how you view this and how you propose society deal with evil people. I may not agree with you but I certainly want to hear your logic and reasoning behind your answer.
Okay, in that case I’ll answer briefly. You’ll need to unpack.
The reduction of crime in a society runs conversely with an increase in virtue. Virtue or moral qualities are descriptions of how we relate to ourselves and others within our environment; —we relate in these ways: from the perspective of self and other and by being passive and active. As strengths can become weaknesses, and virtues misapplied, we have need for a guiding, orientating virtue too. The good society can therefore be built on five mutually supporting core virtues, the building blocks for all other virtues, namely:
self-sufficiency — the self-directed virtue
generosity — the other/environment directed virtue
humbleness — the passive virtue
creativity — the active virtue
peacefulness — the orientating virtue
The good society can emerge only if these five virtues are privileged, enabled and developed. Exactly how is the realm of culture. In a society that progresses along these lines, crime will decrease as the people’s virtues expand. This society is remarkably different to the ones we have now. For example, self-sufficiency requires that countries, communities and individuals have access to, or can develop resources, as well as opportunities and education. Self-sufficiency is also not dependency on the exploitation of others and the theft, confiscation or destruction of their resources and potential through war, economic, legal or institutional means.
In relation to criminals and hostile nations, the good society does have a right to protect itself: that falls most notably under self-sufficiency. In extreme moments that may necessitate violent defense. But the orientating principle, peacefulness, should be held to with determination whenever possible. This would therefore exclude the death penalty and prohibit invasive, first-strike, and false flag war.
One does not need to believe in God to understand the reasoning, but for those that do, these five virtues are pronounced in God. Within the ten commandments you also see their shadow:
Peacefulness: do not kill (the minimum level)
Self-sufficiency: do not covet (minimum level)
Generosity: do not steal (minimum level)
Humbleness: honor you parents
Creativity: do not lie (lying — misused creativity)
As for not committing adultery, in my model that falls within self-sufficiency and generosity.
This is concise, but your mind is resistant as you stated above.
P.S. The commandments that concern our relationship with God take us to a higher level.
Well we disagree but I doubt you or I have ever met anyone who agrees with every single doctrine we believe.
One brief comment — I believe Thou shalt not kill is better translated Thou shalt not Murder.
A couple of exchanges down, D. mentioned crime.
The more laws on the books, the more inharmonious the culture is.
Te harsher the punishment for crime, the more violence there i within the society.
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@Emilio Gomez
Gossip is murder.
And that commandment explains why I am not using D’s full name.
I thought the whole argument was that God is to blame because he doesn’t stop it. He is the one who made a world that could fall into sin. He doesn’t step in to stop anything or just call it quits and start with the new heaven and new earth deal already.
Not to harm others — we would need infinite awareness, and love, patience and wisdom.
Spirituality is the embrace of our limitations. We grow paradoxically, by decreasing ourselves and making space for God. We follow the Infinite to learn how to live as finite.
If God made the world anew what would he change?
It wasn’t my fault He made me do it
In relation to anger and violence, it appears that the Christian response is:
It’s not a fault, He said we can do it.
I believe we invented him in order to project our own stuff on him. We use the invention of “satan” upon which to project our shadow.
Ive found that most of us project parent type qualities on the divine .In truth ive found The divine to be unknowable, non dualistic and detached from our affairs so we can have free will…
If natural disasters are a punishment from God, what does it say that all the tornadoes and hurricanes hit the Bible Belt?
Good point. Some churches in the Bible belt are quick to say that floods and earthquakes in other parts of the country or world are punishments from God, but the logic would have to apply to the storms in their areas too.
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Hi. I’m confused. I believe that God doesn’t cause Tsunami’s etc. But then who caused the plagues on Egypt? Did he not do that? This is making me wonder who has “control” over what happens over the earth in regards to nature and the planet.