I have a confession to make โฆ I want to be waterboarded. Is that sort of twisted?
I have real trouble believing that it is as bad as people make it out to be.
In fact, I did a quick search, and found a guy who got together with some friends so they could all waterboard each other. Howโs that for an evening of fun?!
One of the comments on that post point out exactly what I suspect is the real reason waterboarding is considered โtortureโ by some: the people doing it to you are your enemies and so there is no way to โtap out.โ In reality, then, the real horror of waterboarding is almost entirely psychological.
Jesus andย Violence
So as I write the occasional post about how Jesus wants us to respond to various themes in our culture and society, I found myself wondering how Jesus would respond to the current question about waterboarding our enemies.
I wondered, โWould Jesus waterboard His enemies?โ
But donโt laugh too quickly at such a ludicrous question.
Last week I published a post called โDoes Jesus drown babies?โ and much to my shock, I had a couple of people leave comments to the affirmative, saying that they love and worship a God from the Bible who not only drowns babies, but slaughters them as well. Go read their comments…
I was talking with my wife about this, and said, โThis is one reason there are atheists. If a baby-slaughtering god is the type of god we Christians present to the world, then it is no wonder that people want nothing to do with him.โ
In my opinion, if god is a baby-slaughtering god, then rejecting him and facing the punishment of his hell is a more righteous act than worshiping him. If god is like Molech or Baal, then the atheist who rejects such a god is more honorable and righteous than the Christian who worships him.
But of course, I donโt believe that god is like Molech or Baal. I believe that God is like Jesus.
Jesus and Waterboarding
So anyway, this brings me back around to the seemingly-ludicrous question, โWould Jesus waterboard His enemies?โ
Though there may be some Christians who would say, โOf course!โ (Any of you out there? Please explain your position in the comments below!) I would answer the question negatively. I cannot imagine Jesus using โenhanced interrogation techniquesโ on his enemies, even if such techniques are primarily psychological.
Instead, it seems to me that Jesus would untie his enemy, hand him the bucket, and then get down on the waterboard himself, saying, โGo ahead. I forgive you.โ
In fact, isnโt that exactly what Jesus did do in going to the cross?
We, who deserved to die for all the evil we have done in this world (and usually in the name of God), should have been the ones to go to one of the most painful and excruciating torture techniques invented by man โ the Roman cross. But instead, Jesus got up there Himself and looked us in the face and said, โGo ahead. I forgive you.โ
So would Jesus waterboard His enemies? Of course not. He would let them waterboard Him. And, they would likely kill him in the process.
Jesus, Governments, and Waterboarding
Now, having said this, we must recognize that Jesus is not a government and a government is not Jesus. The question โWould Jesus waterboard?โ is very different than โShould a government waterboard?โ There is a vast difference (as Jesus and every New Testament author reveals) between the Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world.
The kingdom of God is lived out as individuals and small groups of Christ-followers practice the enemy-blessing example of Jesus. But since the kingdoms of this world are under the sway and dominion of the principalities and powers, we should not expect them to naturally adopt the values of Jesus.
As members of the Kingdom of God, we can (and should) call our human governments to a better and different way of living in relation to others, but we should recognize that change takes decadesโeven centuries!โto occur.
This does not excuse our human governments for what they do, but it does help explain their actions. (There is so much to say here โฆ about scapegoating, the myth of redemptive violence, and the role of religion in sanctioning state violence โฆ but it simply cannot all be said. Instead, let me direct you to a few helpful books: The Myth of a Christian Nation, A Faith Not Worth Fighting For, The Powers Trilogy, and my own Dying to Religion and Empire).
So what can we say about our governmentโs involvement in waterboarding?
Look, violence of all sorts makes no sense when thoughtfully considered, but almost more silly are the politically-motivated objections to violence. Without the foundation of Jesus Christ, neither violence nor non-violence make any sense.
I find it quite interesting in the current debate about waterboarding and โenhanced interrogation techniquesโ that many of the same people who are condemning the practice of waterboarding as a means to learn information about what our nationโs enemies are planning, are the same people who, after 9-11, demanded to know why our nationโs intelligence did not know that the 9-11 terrorist attack was coming.
I absolutely guarantee that if our country had not used the techniques it did to learn information that it did through techniques like waterboarding, and if another terrorist attack had occurred like the one on 9-11, the same people who are calling for an investigation into waterboarding today would instead be calling for an investigation into why our intelligence community failed to uncover this terrorist plot.
In other words, itโs โDamned if you do; damned if you donโt.โ
I am not defending waterboarding.
All I am saying is that this world is a messy place, and various governments do various things to further their goals and defend their people. Sometimes what they do is good, and sometimes what they do is evil, but most often it is a sad mixture of both.
So when it comes right down to it, while I think we can safely say that Jesus would not waterboard His enemies, this does not mean that in a sinful and chaotic world, human governments should not. In my opinion, waterboarding (along with sleep deprivation and other such techniques), is a form of psychological torture. But, as bad as this may be, such โenhanced interrogation techniquesโ are better than physical torture techniques like flaying people alive, putting them on the rack, or slow-roasting them on a spit above a fire.
This is what we call progress.
Do you want to know why the world is seeing progress in how governments deal with their enemies? Because the rule and reign of God is expanding upon the earth. Because as Christians model the Kingdom of God in their own lives, and call others to do the same, the human kingdoms of this world see that there is indeed a better way, a more loving way, a way that does not degenerate into the vicious downward spiral of ever-increasing violence.
Believe it or not, the world is learning to look like Jesus by watching followers of Jesus live like Jesus.
Christians and Waterboarding
So should Christians waterboard others? Of course not! (Unless someone wants to come waterboard meโฆ)
Should Christians call for our nation to treat our enemies with the dignity and respect they deserve as human beings for whom Jesus died? Yes!
Will our governments listen? No.
But they will observe our example.
Do you have Muslim neighbors or coworkers? Bless them. Love them. Serve them.
You see, the current problem the Western world faces with many in the Middle East has been centuries in the making. It will likely take centuries to correct it. And where do we begin? With you and me treating โthemโ with love, generosity, and forgiveness.
Jesus never called governments to conform to His values and ideals for this world. But He did call you and me to follow His example, so that we can proclaim and advance the rule and reign of God on earth.
This is a topic where I agree with you in principle, but it seems like there might be more to it.
I strangely have that Jack Nicholson monologue from A Few Good Men stuck in my head. At the safe distance where we stand as people who would never have to weigh the value of protecting lives and maintaining our morality, I think that somewhere deep down we are probably happy that we don’t have as much control over our government as we would like. That way we can maintain our moral high ground while still reaping the benefits of those who do evil.
I guess one of the reasons that I think this is a little more ambiguous than it appears on its face is that the question of whether the torture and death of one man to save the many is an inherently christian question. It makes it a lot simpler when the violence is being willingly submitted to, but we also get a picture of sin being imputed to Christ in order to save us. Is it possible for the act of a man to willingly scar his soul, to take wickedness into his person, to be Christ-like act?
I still would likely say no, but I think that if there is an argument to be made, it might start there.
Good input. Yes, I definitely have not plumbed the depths of this difficult topic. Remember that Jesus was put to death in answer to exactly the question you have raised (John 11:50; 18:14).
This is just another variation of WWJD. Personally I think the question is wrongheaded to start with. Jesus never condemns civil authorities for executing murderers but builds on existing legal penalties to drive home the point that much much worse is coming down the pike for those who are unrepentant – eternal judgment. With respect to torture, Jesus actually uses such in a parable in Matthew 18:34 where a servant is turned over to the jailers to be tortured. Obviously Jesus had no problems using such imagery to stress a much larger concern. The government has a responsibility to protect a nation from those who seek to harm it. To ask what would Jesus do for every aspect of life becomes absurd when you push it to its logical extreme. God establishes the government to reign in evildoers. You can pray for wisdom and that God may guide them. Yes God can use secular means to achieve divine ends.
Hmm… even though ‘turn the other cheek’ is of the Kingdom I don’t think Jesus would take that route in this case. His mission and methods were always to repair and build bridges. Even though it looks His journey to the cross was to ‘swap places with us’ (and maybe it looks that way because we were unable to make that journey ourselves), the cause of the cross was to reconcile – not Mine but Thine. Jesus laying on the water board would be like saying ‘go on then’ – which, I believe, brings no reconciliation whatsoever.
Jesus would apply ‘do unto others’. As you said, Jesus wouldn’t waterboard His enemies. That should be enough forgiveness for his enemies to not do the same to Him.
Should governments ‘torture? Should anyone torture, or find themselves in a position where torture is the only method available? Difficult question. Ideally no. But should it be administered, any action with love brings reconciliation. Any action through fear brings division.
I think that the picture that we see in Scripture shows a civil authority that is disconnected from the believer, as most if not all forms of government ould have been at the time. I read a seperate article on this that cited a poll that suggested that at least a simple majority of those who self-identify as evangelical christians approve of torture being carried out by their government. In a governmental system where the people have at least some say as to who determines what is going on in these matters, I think it is a more relevant question than if we were living under the tyrranical rule of some government that carried these things out.
He wouldn’t have to. He knows all the answers. Just being in His presence would initiate confession.
Torture is punishing people you don’t even know are guilty since they were arrested and incarcerated indefinitely without a trial Torture often gets false confessions.
I think Christ would cast the demons out of these Islamic fanatics….Did he tell the gadarene demoniac “Oh, attack me, I forgive you” ? No.
Yuri Wijting and Mark Burgher You make good points, especially about the power of the government to maintain peace and security. I don’t really mention in this Facebook post, but these posts are sometimes little more than a summary of a much longer post on my blog. If you click that “TILL HE COMES” link under the image, you can see the full post.
I only mention that, because I do mention the place of governments in that post…
Ransom Backus, yes, I agree that torture gets false confessions. I sometimes wonder if waterboarding really qualifies as torture?
Michael O’Niell, you think Muslims are possessed by demons? Do you know any? Personally, I think that it is demonic to say such a thing…
I believe some are, yes.
waterboarding uses pain and fear…I would say so.
Violence begets violence. The history of humanity is a history of responding to violence with more violence. Where has that gotten us? Is Jesus the solution to this age-old problem? There are those who think the Jesus solution hasn’t worked. What then might be the solution?
Right! Someone has to break the cycle of violence, and Jesus showed us who it should be and how to do it.
So if you agree the waterboarding is not something Jesus would do then what about an eternity in hell?
GREAT question! One I will not try to answer now…
God is all things that are good. If you donโt want to accept God into your life, then he is not going to force himself into your life. You will get to live eternity without him- that eternity being hell because it is the absence of all that is good. So the choice of going to hell for eternity is no longer in Jesusโ handsโฆ. The choice is yours
Jesus said come and follow him, he didnโt force you to follow him.
Author Jeremy, As you know Jesus and waterboarding, please invent waterboard salvation. I think it is like holding a person under water in baptism long enough to get the fear of God into them, except they can hear preaching including audio of a whole Gospel. It would be much better for the military to use it to save the world instead of the vision of the 4 horsemen where white Christians, red Communists (Chinese) and black Muslims war sending people to hell, don’t you agree? Sending people to heaven after they die would be better than sending them to hell. I’ve written President Trump, President Putin, and DARPA suggesting they could use it to save the world instead of warring in the mideast sandbox. No visible interest but maybe you can demonstrate it and make it happen, earning a Nobel Peace Prize.
I am sure you’re joking. Conversion at the edge of a sword or under threat of drowning is no better than what any fanatic religious terrorist group is doing.