I am not really sure when I fully embraced Calvinism, but I do know that by the time I was in my early 20s, I was a five-point Calvinist.
Since Calvinism was so inherently logical and apparently biblical, I was fully persuaded in my own mind that “Calvinism is the Gospel, and the Gospel is Calvinism” (as some Calvinists claim). I vividly remember debating Calvinism with many of my non-Calvinist friends, trying to convince them of what was eminently obvious to anyone with a working brain.
Losing Limited Atonement
However, it was not long after this that one of my Calvinistic friends declared that he was no longer a five-point Calvinist, but was now a four-point Calvinist. He no longer believed in “Limited Atonement.”
I told him that he had begun to slide down a slippery slope, for the five points of Calvinism are like five links on a chain: they stand or fall together and if one link in the chain breaks, it is only a matter of time before the whole system unravels. My friend assured me that nothing of the sort would happen to him, and he was still fully convinced of the other four points of Calvinism.
I was skeptical, but he and I talked about it, studied the Scriptures, and read numerous books.
It was not long before I too had given up on Limited Atonement as well. But I was convinced that I would remain a four-point Calvinist, just like my friend. As it happened, what I told him about the links in the Calvinistic chain turned out to be true—at least for me.
Shedding Perseverance of the Saints
Later that year, I sat through a Bible College class on the General Epistles in which the professor, Dr. John Hart, had us read numerous books which challenged the fifth point of Calvinism: the Perseverance of the Saints.
Among the books he had us read were two that really challenged my thinking and helped me see certain key texts in a new light: They are The Epistle of James by Zane Hodges and The Reign of the Servant Kings by Joseph Dillow (a revised and updated edition of the book is now titled Final Destiny).
There were numerous other books I read and the class lectures of Dr. John Hart were influential as well, so within a year I had abandoned my belief in the Perseverance of the Saints, and was now a three-point Calvinist.
Calvinist No More
I remained a three-point Calvinists for quite a while, until, after Seminary, I began my first pastorate in Montana. It was there, where the rubber of theology hits the road of life, where the final three points of Calvinism finally fell.
The sources of influence were numerous and varied.
One elder named Bob Weaver challenged me to view God differently than I had before. I read some books which were recommended to me by others. God’s Strategy in Human History was helpful, as were various books by Samuel Fisk, Harry Ironside, C. Gordon Olson, Laurence Vance, and Dave Hunt.
Also, I was preaching at this time through the book of Ephesians, and my research and study on Ephesians 1 helped me to see that this chapter does not teach Unconditional Election as many Calvinists claim. Somewhere during those first five years as a pastor, all three of the remaining points of Calvinism crumbled in my mind.
Coming to Terms with non-Calvinism
It was an exciting but scary time.
It was exciting because my theology was changing and I was discovering new vistas on about the grace of God and the role of faith and works in the life of believers.
But it was scary because I kept wondering how deep the rabbit hole went. I didn’t want to be an Arminian, but at the same time, I knew I could no longer be a Calvinist.
In an attempt to stay true to my quickly fading Calvinistic beliefs, I read every Calvinistic book I could get my hands on. Not only did I read John Calvin, I also read John MacArthur, John Piper, R. C. Sproul, James Montgomery Boice, Philip Graham Ryken, A. W. Pink, Edwin Palmer, and dozens of other such authors, all of whom vigorously defended Calvinism.
In the end, though, none of them wrote anything in their books which persuaded me that my new belief system was wrong.
In fact, it often seemed to me that these Calvinistic authors themselves had never heard of the views which I myself held. They kept arguing against non-Calvinistic beliefs which I, as a non-Calvinist, did not believe!
It seemed to me that they had not read any of the books I had read, or even knew anything about the way of reading Scripture which I had adopted. At the time, I did not know exactly if these Calvinistic authors were trying to refute Arminian beliefs (which I had not read much of), or if they had simply erected anti-Calvinistic straw-man beliefs which were then easily knocked down. Looking back now, and having read many books on Arminian theology, I have to say that it was the latter.
Most Calvinists, it seems, rarely read books or listen to teachers that are not Calvinistic.
It is exceedingly rare to find a defense of Calvinism which actually deals with the documented beliefs and ideas of Calvinistic opponents. A typical Calvinistic defense seems to consist of stating the Calvinistic beliefs, quoting numerous Calvinistic authors, and referencing several biblical texts which seem to support the Calvinistic perspectives.
This pretty much brings me up to the present day.
Over the past fifteen years, I have continued to read both Calvinistic and non-Calvinistic authors, and study biblical texts from the various perspectives. With every passing year, I am more and more convinced that Calvinism reads Scripture incorrectly, distorts the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and has ultimately abandoned the roots of the Reformation.
All this will be seen in later posts.
So what about you? What is your history with Calvinism? Are you Calvinist now? Have you ever been a Calvinist? Do you know what Calvinism is? Share your stories in the comment section below.
Stephen Butler says
I never fully embraced it, but I saw the good in being balanced on God’s sovereignty and mans free will. Now, I see that the majority of those that are fully invested in Calvinism are really negative and judgmental. That is what I used to be too. I know there are always exceptions, but I really thoroughly appreciate your willingness to be honest about the theological issues instead of always placating the party line. Keep it up. love reading your works and thoughts.
Victor Somers says
Thanks for this Jeremy. I seem to remember your Calvinistic leanings during our FBC days. I have never fully embraced Calvinism so I so appreciate your learned perspective and look forward to hearing more on this topic.
I am currently church planting and many in my network are 5 point. They often prod me about being less enlightened which is an attitude which seems to come with the territory.
Thanks again for sharing your work with us. It is much appreciated.
Brian P. says
All 5 points are pokey. While they could have been named with many metaphors, Calvinism doesn’t have contours, it has 5 points. If they prodded that would be more with a blunt-ended stick. More so than prod, they probably poke. More than what the points are is that they are points.
Jeremy Myers says
Good memory, Victor! For some reason, many church planters are rather Calvinistic. I wrote about this a while back: https://redeeminggod.com/wanted-free-grace-church-planting/
I hope your church plant goes well! May your tribe increase!
Elaine says
I study the Word. I also teach. When I don’t understand something I get information from godly authors,(and off the internet). Yet after reading their take on certain subjects I am less understanding of the topic than when I began. I begin to question my own take on the scriptures. I have been a believer for 40 years. I am not a novice nor am I a theologian. An example is the church of Laodicea, what is their true condition as far as their salvation is concerned.
david russell says
Laodicea? That’s not a valid question – since we can never know. Only God Who knows the heart and will judge, does. No one’s answer can be proven. Therefore such questions will only “gender strife” with no benefit.
Kevin Hansen says
I have a simple belief. There is s Creator of the universe, God. God loved us so much that He sent His son, Christ, to die for my sins. For even if everyone was perfect before me, I would have chosen to sin. Christ is the Word. He was and is God incarnate, in the flesh. I believed through Christ and in Christ and am indwelt with the Holy Spirit. I am sealed in Christ’s work. I am a follower, a believer, a disciple of Christ. I am His ambassador in this world. Apart from Christ I am nothing.
Jeremy Myers says
That is a good, simple statement! Thanks for including it!
Margaret says
Thank-you! I have to ask: did Jesus have a “system” of operating when He was on earth? I believe Scripture is our moral compass, although how can many different Christian ideologies all be correct that have so called derived from Scripture? ? IE: armeanism, calvanism etc? It seems all they do is separate genuine believer’s, produce a prideful spirit, and turnoff and make unbeliever’s laugh at us. And score one for the enemy, because Christian’s are SUPPOSE to be known by our love for each other.I recall pride is #1 on God’s list of things He hates. I am totally a believer in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the operating in the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit. That being said: I am careful in who and what I watch and listen to, and pray for discernment, there are false teachers. Cessationists do not have the final say in Christianity.
Drew boba says
oh but continueationists have the the final say [no they dont]
Brian P. says
“Most Calvinists, it seems, rarely read books or listen to teachers that are not Calvinistic.”
And likewise and perhaps more so…
“Most Evangelicals, it seems, rarely read books or listen to teachers that are not Evangelical.”
And likewise and perhaps more so…
“Most Protestants, it seems, rarely read books or listen to teachers that are not Protestant.”
And likewise and perhaps more so…
“Most Christians, it seems, rarely read books or listen to teachers that are of other faiths and non-faith.”
Personally, starting about fifteen years ago, I started out on a quest to understand why I believed what I believed. And I did so without guardrails.
To me, this:
“A typical Calvinistic defense seems to consist of stating the Calvinistic beliefs, quoting numerous Calvinistic authors, and referencing several biblical texts which seem to support the Calvinistic perspectives.”
In substantial ways generalizes this:
“A typical [___] defense seems to consist of stating the [___] beliefs, quoting numerous [___] authors, and referencing several [centrally defining] texts which seem to support the [___] perspectives.”
Have I been a Calvinist, Evangelical, Protestant and Christian? Yes.
Do I know what Calvinism, Evangelicalism, Protestantism, and Christianity are? Yes, and as well or better than most adherents from both inside and outside.
Am I Calvinist now? Uh, no.
Am I Christian now? Don’t ask me! Ask a Calvinist. They know everything about who’s in and who’s out.
Aaron says
“Am I Christian now? Don’t ask me! Ask a Calvinist. They know everything about who’s in and who’s out.”
This made me laugh… Awesome!
Ward Kelly says
Ditto!
Tony Vance says
very well PUT.
Jeremy Myers says
Ha ha ha! I LOVE this. So true. So true. Especially that last line.
Mike says
Most who disagree with Calvinism do a poor job defending what they believe. I have read some every good s defending free grace and pointing out the errors of Calvinism. The problem is that most and I realize how this sounds, but most believers who disagree with Calvinists cannot say why in a convincing way. When I was a Calvinist, I owned the theological debate every time because those who disagreed didn’t know why so they lost the debate.
Most Calvinists I know are kind, compassionate, giving individuals who give generously to the spread of the Gospel. They know their Bibles very well and are active in their church community. John Piper and John MacArthur for example are doing some incredible things as are other Calvinists and though I no longer teach Calvinism I still acknowledge their enormous contribution to the church community.
That being said, men like Charlie Bing, George Zeller and others like Drue Freeman provided another perspective to the issue of Calvinism and I am grateful to them for their kindness and for their teaching ministry.
MK
jonathon says
>because those who disagreed did not know why so they lost the debate.
I’d go a step further, and say that most people do not know why they have the beliefs that they have. Arguably, people do not even know what they believe, much less why.
Calvinism qua TULIP is much easier to delineate, articulate, and defend, than the Arminian, Lutheran, Catholic, or pre-Reformation Anabaptist equivalent.
Mike says
You are correct on both accounts and that is the reason for much of the anxiety when it comes to belief systems like Calvinism. Much of what he taught was correct and he was often brilliant. The problem I faced and sometimes still face is when I say ” I know…”
When you “know” and the other person doesn’t “know” anxiety sets in and then the invectives begin to fly and the discussion is lost. I disagree w Jeremy 98% of the time and I remain silent because I like him and I think I understand what he is trying to do. I still read Calvin too
N Allen says
If you haven’t already, please read Dave Hunt’s book “What Love Is This?”
(I don’t know how to say this kindly, but please know that I don’t mean it unkindly!)
I was shocked to learn what kind of man Calvin really was. (And extremely disappointed.)
In his own words (which are documented in the book with their original sources), Calvin claimed to have ‘gained salvation through his own infant baptism’, and in later life expressed pleasure in having people, who disagreed with him, put to death. (A ‘cruel’ death was preferred).
There is no way I would accept “God’s truth” from a man like this. Totally unChrist-like. Not to mention-terrifying.
A. says
Yup. Jesus Christ led me to Dave Hunt a lot of years ago. Starting me on such an exciting journey to freedom from religion and religious hypocrites like John MacArthur (and his fancy suit and watch) that tell you that you’re going to Hell for having those very things 🧐
Jeremy Myers says
Mike,
Yes, I agree with you and what you have found. Of course, there are many hateful Calvinists who condemn all non-Calvinists, and there are many hateful non-Calvinists who condemn Calvinists.
I might get a bit passionate in this series on Calvinism, but I *hope* I can write with grace.
Mike says
I hope so too Jeremy. It was Calvinists who condemned me as a heretic and threw me out of the church but I did not and will condemn them. I came to free grace years afterward so I was still a Calvinist for years when I was outside of any fellowship. I have many fond memories of their fellowship, I learned the bible and I saw first hand the depth of their commitment to what they believe.
They are wrong on some points but not all and like it or not God is sovereign, regardless of your theology. 🙂
MK
Mike says
should have been “will not condemn them” (typo)
Cathy says
I know this will sound condescending, but words fail me: people really rest their faith on five points? Is this really how Calvin would have envisaged his ideas playing out over the centuries?
jonathon says
TULIP dates to the mid-nineteenth Century.
Prior to that, one argued in favour of, or against _The Five Articles of the Remonstrants_ or Wesley’s adaption of them, or _The Formula of Concord_, using the entire theological plane.
_The Five Articles of the Remonstrants_ was written for government officials who were utterly clueless about theology.
Jeremy Myers says
No, I really doubt that this is how Calvin wanted his theology to end up. He taught so much more than just these 5 points (and much of it is quite good!). But these 5 points were developed in reaction to the followers of Arminius, and so somehow they have come to summarize what Calvin taught.
Dwight Hunt says
Yes I agree Jeremy! I had to go back and challenge all 5 points. I am not sure what I am, but the more I study I move away from this logical system.
Darryl says
I was raised in an evangelical church that never explicitly stated their theology was Calvanism, yet it came through in their teaching; ironically however, when it came to eternal security they were Arminian (believed you could lose your salvation). As an adult at a Christian university working on a religious studies degree, I was unsettled with both sides, not realizing there was alternative until coming across Free Grace Theology and discussed my concerns with Dr. Radmacher–who said it was the Holy Spirit who caused me to be unsettled.
To put it bluntly, thre Calvanist caricature of God is satanic. A god who chooses people for eternal literal fire (Romans 9) and causing/allowing evil (rape, torture, child abuse, etc) means he looks more like Molech than the God of love revealed in Jesus.
Jeremy Myers says
Dr. Radmacher was influential on me as well… Most people do not know there is a mediating third position.
You certainly are blunt there at the end! I don’t disagree, but I will probably try to stay away from statement like that in my own critique of Calvinism because of how they tend to just escalate the argument.
Darryl Van Dyke says
“…I will probably try to stay away from statement like that in my own critique of Calvinism because of how they tend to just escalate the argument.”
Sounds like wisdom 🙂
Mike says
You agree with Darryl Jeremy?? Really?? In your next post about Calvinism just say what you mean. Satanic, really? This is why the discussion never gets anywhere. Grow up Darryl adn Jeremy, what a disappointment.
MK
Jeremy Myers says
Mike,
Weeeellll, please note first of all that Darryl did not say that Calvinism itself is Satanic. He said that the “caricature of God” is satanic. I think Calvinists would agree that since any caricature of God brings dishonor to His name, and as a caricature of God is opposed to God and is anti-God, a caricature of God is therefore satanic. Calvinists would not say that their view of God is a caricature of God, but that is what the argument is all about, isn’t it? The debate over Calvinism is not so much about theology, but about this question: “What is God like?”
Having said this, it must also be noted that there are scores upon scores of quotes from well-known and noted Calvinists who have said similar (and worse) things about those who are opposed to Calvinism. That doesn’t mean we should make such statements in return, which is why I tend not to make them. I try to remain civil, loving, gracious, and kind, because that is how I see God behaving toward me… (which also tells people what I think God is like).
Having said all this (if you really want to know exactly where I stand)….. it is not too surprising that I agreed with him because I also think that “Christendom” is “satanic.” Both terms require definition.
Christendom: I think that Christianity as a religion, which purports to call people to follow Jesus, but uses money, power, and political prestige to force “Christianity” on others, is nothing other than the adoption of all the things which Satan promised Jesus in Luke 4, but which Jesus turned down. Christendom, meanwhile, accepted the satanic offers with both arms held wide. Since Calvinism (with its Augustinian roots, and Augustine was the great justifier of the marriage between the church and state) is a belief system within the stream of Christendom, it falls within these same critiques.
Then, of course, you need to understand how I read the word “satanic.” Satan, of course, simply means “accuser” and so “satanic” is an adjective meaning “accusatory.” To say that something is “satanic” is to say it is “accusatory.” Much that falls under the Calvinistic title is also quite accusatory.
Am I accusing Calvinism of being accusatory? I am, I suppose, which makes me “satanic” as well. So even though I may point the finger at my Calvinist friends, I always try to remember that when I do so, three fingers are pointing back at me (to recall a truth we all learn in Kindergarten).
Sue says
A late reply, but you made an indellible point! ‘Accusatory,’ …. I found myself in a church I didn’t realize to be Calvinist. What was this odd feeling I was getting of being under a microscope? I was subtily being ‘accused,’ or ‘judged!’ Huh, thanks for shedding light on this!
Pastor FedEx says
Jeremy,
You are right about the three fingers pointing back at you, unless of course you are Count Rugen, the man with six fingers on your right hand then it would be four fingers, and then I would also have to say
“Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.”
david russell says
Bingo!
That’s the bottom line.
And that’s the problem, and should be the focus of discussion.
There are MANY good verses on BOTH sides (pro and anti). Hence to enter such debate is frustrating and usually unprofitable. I know, I’ve been through it. I’ve learned to go straight to the “bottom line”: “Real” Calvinism teaches that God, in His sovereignty, determines and renders certain that most men will finally go to the lake of fire – without regard to anything they do or think. That is a damnable heresy.
Aaron says
I used to have heavy leanings toward Calvinism….
A friend of mine once said:
A Calvinist believes God can save whomever He intends to, but He only intends to save His elect.
An Armenian believes God desires to save all men, but allows the will of man to override this desire.
I now believe a mix of these two…
Jeremy Myers says
Most would say there is no way to mix them, but it seems there just might be…
Ward Kelly says
Well I may be the odd ball here as I am not a pastor, have not gone to seminary, and was never taught the principles of Calvinism vs Arminianism. So in an effort to get up to speed I did a search and read the point by point breakdown of both camps. http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/
As described in the above chart I am definatly not a Calvinist. I agree with almost all the Arminian points except their statement on eternal salvation “Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith.”.
I will be eagerly awaiting Jeremy’s breakdown of these points. I am curious if this two camp system is really of import in most Christian circles? In 30 years of sitting under church teaching have had very limited exposure to this system.
Jeremy Myers says
Great summary there, thanks. Yes, maybe the two-camp system is not as firm as it used to be (or maybe it never was).
Tony Vance says
I have never been a Calvinist. I am a very hard leaning Arminian. I have explored, studied and debated about Calvinism and have never been able to overcome a God who chooses to condemn someone, before that someone exists. That is unfair, unjust and unmerciful-unlike the God of the Bible.
Jeremy Myers says
Tony,
Not being an Arminian myself, I would LOVE for your input on this series as we go along.
Ken Soderlund says
I find myself uninformed and lacking scholarly credentials to add much except an observation. Was Calvin anti-Semitic? If so then I’d not give him a moment’s pause in his theological views if he is so off the mark from the heart of God. Couple that with the fruit of Calvinism causing so much sin with it’s hypergrace emphasis it is a nonstarter. I do commend you Jeremy for your talents and your sincerity. God bless you and all who have written comments here.
The Real Person!
The Real Person!
But is that not you coming to the bible with your own preconceived notion of what a just, merciful etc God actually is rather than letting the bible show you who the God of the bible is?
Bud Brown says
I started this journey as a 4 point Calvinist, having learned that POV from a pastor who later became a friend and mentor.
But the real linchpin in Calvinism is their doctrine of total depravity, which actually means “total inability.” Once you begin unpacking the OT concept of death (starting with Genesis 2 and 3), you discover that “completely unable to respond to God” is not part of the biblical field of meaning for that term.
Once total inability falls the whole system collapses.
I tell people I am a Zero Point Calvinist. That always generates interesting conversation.
Jeremy Myers says
Great input, Bud. For me, Total Depravity was one of the last points to fall (for the reasons you state), but as you say, it is the linchpin which holds the system together.
truthseeker00 says
After being in a Calvinist church for over a decade, and witnessing person after person and family after family leaving the church in a more broken condition than which they came, including several divorces, one woman abandoning her family to become a sex slave, and many rejecting the faith altogether, I discovered, to my great chagrin, that it had taken a toll on my family as well. We are still nursing our wounds, and hoping for healing.
I just want to testify, for those who are questioning or unsure about Calvinism, that it asserts a false and unlivable theology, teaching that God loves only some, and cruelly punishes the rest, whom he rendered unable to do good for – yep – not doing what he made them incapable of doing. Believing in such a cruel, harsh tyrant of a God leads to coldness, legalism, arrogance, self righteousness and despair. After a few short-term gains, it leads to mostly unhealthy and un-Christlike attitudes. Although this may be less true in moderately Calvinistic churches, these essentially ‘gateway’ churches very easily lead to more hardcore Calvinism.
Total Depravity is definitely the linchpin of the system, and is also the least supported scripturally of all of Calvinism’s 5 points. It is, like all of Calvinism’s doctrines, not explicitly taught anywhere in scripture, but extrapolated by taking a few verses or partial verses out of context and granting them a meaning never intended by the authors. It is contradicted by nearly every narrative of scripture, as God urges, warns and sends prophets to call people to turn from sin, rewards those who obey and punishes those who refuse. We do not see an arbitrary, cruel God randomly choosing to compel some men to obedience while heartlessly abandoning those who are unable to help themselves to their predetermined fate.
The best advice I can offer to those who are seriously seeking to understand God, not merely looking to defend one system or another, is to read scripture with a heart open to seeing the obvious messages that appear in narrative after narrative.
The fact is, anyone can take a verse, or group of verses, and interpret them to mean nearly anything, if they are clever. The insurance against deception is the marvelous method God used to reveal himself by giving us simple, easy to follow stories that do not require advanced degrees to understand. Understanding scripture is not a matter of properly defining a few difficult, multi-syllabic words, as Calvinism insists, but seeing the simple message told in the heart-wrenching stories.
I believe if you read scripture with seeking hearts, you will see repeated, again and again, the message that God loves these creatures he called men. So much so that even when they rebelled against his will, resisted his instructions and performed the most wicked and despicable deeds, God continued to pursue and call them to ‘come home’. He loved men so much that, even knowing many would reject his offer, he freely provided the costly atonement for all sin, so that no man need fear punishment and death, but could repent of their wickedness and be restored to loving relationship with God. All they had to do was believe in his genuine goodness, trust in his promises and follow him accordingly.
There are no stories that depict a cruel, partial God that loves only a select few and hates all others. The view of Abraham’s fleshly descendants as God’s sole ‘chosen people’, that the Judaisers taught, was soundly repudiated by Jesus, Paul and the other disciples. They quoted the prophets to reveal that salvation had always been intended for all people, and Israel had been ‘chosen’ to produce the Redeemer and bring this good news to all the world – not to be the only recipients of God’s favor, as their false teachers proclaimed. Story after story in the bible show God seeking lost sinners, wooing them, urging them to turn from their freely chosen evil deeds, be forgiven and walk in his ways. His wrath was only visited upon those who stubbornly refused to hear his voice and heed his call; those who continued in their ways of violence, oppression and wickedness.
From what little I have read so far of Jeremy’s writings, it seems he understands that the institutions of ‘The Church’ and ‘Christianity’ are not the true ekklesia of God, just as the nation called ‘Israel’ was not the true ‘Israel’ of God. God’s people are all whom he foreknew would believe in his Son, and whom he predestined to someday be fully conformed to his righteous image. Whenever hierarchy, infighting, traditions of men, power and authority enter the picture, you can be sure that what you are looking at is something other than the Body of Christ.
Not only Jeremy’s teaching, but the many comments will tell you pretty much what you need to know about the results of adopting Calvinism. The principles asserted in Calvinism’s TULIP cannot hold up to an unbiased, thorough examination of scripture, and they do no lead to a healthy, fruitful, spirit-led life. That, too, you will hear in testimony after testimony of those who once were persuaded by the teachings of Calvinism only to be happily freed upon further prayerful study of God’s life-giving Word.
Miss says
Thank you so much for posting this comment!! Some of our family members have started following Calvinism. We have watched as their personalities have changed. They have separated themselves from those of us who won’t embrace Calvinism. Your story gives me both additional concerns and hope at the same time. Like you, I can’t read the Bible without seeing all the stories of God’s mercy which show Him in such a completely different light than our Calvinist children see Him. I know a God of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and more chances. They believe in a God of zero chances. Just trying to imagine that I am walking among people that have been sentenced to hell prior to drawing their first breath leaves me so sick. I can’t imagine going through life that way. Some of our adult children who are now Calvinists are expecting or have just had children. They freely acknowledge that their children may have been assigned to hell prior to birth. Why are they having children?? I can’t imagine how these children will be raised. Do they honestly teach children what they believe? Do Calvinist churches teach children that God may or may not love them – that it’s too soon to know. They will have to wait and see if they are irresistibly drawn to grace? Do they teach them that Jesus may or may not have died for them? I am still in shock that my children have been so deceived.
Elizabeth says
My husband and I just left a hyper Calvinist church. We joined a study called, “Foundations of the Faith” by John MacArthur. We had no idea the study was based on his teachings. Our Pastor was a graduate from Master’s Seminary. We, then, understood why we had red flags go up every time we went to church. Limited Atonement teaching left us hopeless. What was the point of having five children if they were not the elect? Why would God answer our prayers for a big family, only destine one or more of them to hell? We do not interpret scripture this way. Also, we were instructed that our “family” is not necessarily our natural family, but rather people of our church who believe as we do. It is a very divisive doctrine and wrongful. Please pray we will find a sound church. It seems the churches here are liberal, Reformed Calvinistic or extremely legalistic.
Joel Kessler says
I literally made people cry (my little brother included) with the ferocity of my debates and theological “know-how.” Then I read Donald MIller’s book ‘Blue Like Jazz’ and it flipped my trajectionary around from trying to know and debate a perfect arguement and win people over through theological submission, to wow, God not only Loves me, but He likes me? It was SUCH a relational breath of fresh air. It inspired me to pursue ‘love,’ philosophically from Shakespeare to romantic “chik-flik’ type movies. Finally what really broke the straw was finding a website about Christus Victor vs. Penal Substitionary Atonement. The person who wrote the piece totally left Penal Substituationary Atonement looking so weak in comparison to the Christus Victor view. It was what gave me the energy to move forward and look beyond Calvinism.
Jeremy Myers says
Yes! The first time I tried to read Blue Like Jazz, I literally threw it across the room against the wall, then tore it up and tossed it in my trash can. Later, after my theology started to shift, I read it again, and like you, I found it to be a breath of fresh air.
Then, as you say, Christus Victor helped as well, though I am relatively new to that perspective (only the last two years or so).
jeremy edmondson says
Do you happen to have any of the notes you accumulated from your study of Ephesians that you would be willing to share?
Love the blog! Keep up the sound work!!!
Jeremy Myers says
Um. Yes…. Let’s see. Some of them are here: https://redeeminggod.com/text_sermons.htm
Just go down to the Ephesians section. (Don’t you love that old website???? Yikes!!)
Vic Lortz says
I have migrated in the opposite direction from most expressed here, but that is beside the point. Most of the objections to “Calvinism” seem to boil down to expressions of preference (gut feeling, if you will). I don’t know about the rest of you, but I don’t consider that sort of thing as a sound basis for deciding difficult questions when we have actual scriptural evidence to use instead. Based on my understanding of scripture, Calvinism is aligned with what the word of God actually teaches. Of course, it is possible to extrapolate from Calvinistic principles and arrive at erroneous conclusions (like there’s no need to preach the gospel), but that is not a necessary consequence of those principles as much as an example of faulty reasoning.
Jeremy Myers says
Vic,
I am glad you know where you stand.
Do you really think that most who object to Calvinism do so only because of a gut feeling, while those who teach and hold to Calvinism do so because they have studied the Scripture? I think some in both camps hold to their beliefs out of a gut feeling, while some in both camps hold to their beliefs for exegetical reasons. This is what makes the debate so difficult (and heated).
Regardless, I hope you will stick around and see that I left Calvinism because of a very careful and detailed study of the Scripture, and will be sharing many of the results of this long study here on this blog.
gerriemalan says
I too, was raised in a Calvinistic tradition – in South Africa’s mainline Dutch Reformed Church. Looking back today, I conclude I was just a cultural Christian and that the Christian faith that I professed was little more than doing what I was supposed to do. My true faith conversion came much later in life.
For the past few years my wife and I have been reading the Bible again, as if for the first time. Now we are simply called by other -isms. I have yet to find – even among my friends – someone who disagrees with my views and does so with the Bible as their source. Whatever happened to Sola Scriptura among them?
Jeremy Myers says
We do tend to exchange one label for another, don’t we?
I think almost all Christians think they hold to sola Scriptura. I mean, maybe not those words, but almost all Christians think they use the Bible as the main or final authority for their practice. Even Catholics, who give great authority to the Pope and Tradition, do so by appealing to various Scriptures which seem to support this practice.
gerriemalan says
In my childhood and teenage years (and perhaps even way past them) I solidly believed the members of other churches than our group of 3 reformed denominations were going to hell. I mean, they practised the sin of baptising adults instead of babies! In fact, I would not even accept an invitation to attend a service in the Baptist Church.
“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” – Hosea 4:6. It is such a true principle even if it was spoken to Israel. Many people regularly quote that, but how many read the rest of the verse?
Mieke Brunt says
I grew up from birth under the Calvinistic teaching,Reformed (gerefermeerd)in Holland.then migrated with my parents at 18 y.o.age.
I was avery troubled girl,i now realize the effect the teaching had on me over the years.
Try a little harder,always a rotten sinner,no hope.
I fell into depression,spiritually,so burdened,till one day with my marriage in the pits i cried out to the Lord from deep within.
He came to me and spoke 3 things:
I have done it all for you on the cross
You need to be baptized in water.
I still have a plan for Israel
I came out of this experience with the LIGHT turned on,in love with Jesus,knew i was SAVED,the Bible became a living book etc.
Sadly my Calvinistic husband became my persecutor,this was all of the devil”How dare you claim salvation” etc.
I stayed in my marriage even though he wanted me to leave,but the Lord had told me to submit.
Thanking Him,6 children to bring up,my husband softened towards the end of his life but remained a Calvinist,died suddenly of a heart attack.
Then I was free,a long healing journey,finding true freedom from legalism.So these last 20 years have been amazing,so many discoveries of the Fathers love.
Calvinism had me shackled,and slowly one by one these shacles have been removed,not quite there yet,but now at 83 y.o.i am more hungry then ever to know Him…….
I pray for the blindfold to be removed from of the eyes of the Reformed believers here in Australia.
Instead of it being REFORMED it should be TRANSFORMED
by the renewing of the mind,new wine poured into new wine skins.
I praise God that I am living in these days of the coming of the great outpouring.
Am believing for many more years to spread the oh so good news of the full gospel.Mieke
Terry Jones says
I just happened across your webpage and found it interesting. I do not consider myself to be a Calvinist but also certainly not an Arminian. Mostly, I try to better understand the Word without trying to rely too much on other’s commentary unless it is dealing with a fuller understanding of the original languages or culture. I have tried to gain a better understanding of Calvinism mainly so I would have a basis of understanding when listening to other’s viewpoints. I had heard about Daniel Akin, president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and his dealing with the points of Calvinism. If you get time you may enjoy reading this: http://www.baptisttwentyone.com/2012/06/dr-danny-akins-article-on-calvinism/
Jeremy Myers says
Thanks for commenting, Terry. I hope you will stick around and provide input about what you are learning from Scripture. There is so much to learn, and so many people to learn from!
Terry Jones says
Thank you. I find the more I learn from God’s Word the more there is to learn. I only desire to be consumed by Jesus. We can indeed learn a lot from one another. I’ve always liked the saying, ‘Knowledge is knowing where to find the answer.’ I know the Bible has all the answers we need to know. It does, however, also say there are some we cannot know. I look forward to being sharpened.
Proverbs 27:17 (ESV) Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.
Gail @ BibleLoveNotes.com says
Thank you for this post. It confirms many things in my own experience. I have never been a Calvinist but prefer to say that certain aspects of God’s sovereignty and man’s free will are mysteries to us here on earth. But one thing that has made me more repelled by Calvinism is the rudeness with which many Calvinists express their doctrine. I have sat in church services where Calvinist preachers said all non-Calvinists believe in a “works” salvation and believe in “nonsense.” I’ve been told by Calvinist preachers, who weren’t even born when I started my faith-walk with Jesus, that as I “matured” I would see the truth of Calvinism–that only immature Christians are non-Calvinists.
I have always been amazed that a belief that teaches total depravity produces so many arrogant followers and teachers.
Having said that, I appreciate the contribution Calvinists have made to Christianity apart from their fixation on Calvinism.
Jeremy Myers says
Thanks, Gail!
Of course, many Calvinists are kind and gracious, and I have known many rude and arrogant non-Calvinists, and I often fall into rudeness and arrogance as well.
But there does seem to be a fair number of out-spoken and loud Calvinists in the Christian sphere today…
Elizabeth says
This is my experience, as well. I’ve walked with the Lord for 37 years, and was shocked at the arrogance of some of these ones who have only known the Lord a few years but are well-versed in Calvinistic doctrine. The sarcastic comments were too much for me.
Darryl Van Dyke says
Your comments above explaining what “satanic” means is bang on and exactly represents my intentions in my previous statement re Calvanism’s charicature of God. Thanks.
Jeremy Myers says
Whew! Glad we are tracking…
walter says
goodness me….where to begin? how about i’m a Calvinist and I find this post equally as in-accurate as the comments you guys have lashed out at the theological system. I never quite believed someone might sunk his teeth into calvinism fully then soon after attack it as a faulty theology. Doesn’t calvinism answer or the least make sense of paradoxes which you have such as how free-will might co-exist with omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresent? doesn’t it stretch out God’s sovereignty as wide as it stretches His Love? doesn’t it make the main point of the bible the main point of the bible by screaming out Lord “to God be the glory”??!! isn’t it consistence with any translation of Proverbs 16:4 that God created some for destruction or Romans 9 along with a summation of Paul’s messages throughout the 13 letters?? the only thing i can sum up from all your views is that you dismiss calvinism for its political incorrectness and note in the same fashion Jesus was dismissed by religious leaders of His days. I could write a library of books in response to every thought or idea against calvinism you have raised but alas!! at the end of the day one will believe and see what one wants to believe or see, just try not to do it in a manner that screams out “we don’t care about the truth”!!!!
Jeremy Myers says
Walter, how can my personal history with Calvinism be inaccurate? It’s my personal history.
And I think I sunk my teeth pretty fully into Calvinism. I was taught it in Bible College and Seminary. I read scores of books on Calvinism from Calvinists. I taught it for years as a pastor.
The “you didn’t study it enough” argument is commonly used, but quite weak.
Brian Christensen says
I guess I was predestined to find this blog. It seems the whirlwind has become more fierce – or at least in my own view. The church I grew up in was not dogmatic about it compared to the church I attend now (my pastor when I was in SoCal became DTS president after I moved.
Usually when I have talked with or heard some things from Calvinist regarding some of the ‘scriptural evidence’ I think…really…never ever heard it translated/described that way. That and the new testament fathers must have been pretty poor teachers.
I was trying to find a 5 pointed box to put God in….but alas only seem to find 4 pointed ones so far.
Not a Calvinist…Nor a TULIPThonian….
A student of Gods unfathomable Grace.
Chris Chapman says
Don’t you find it interesting that you never hear a Calvinist say that they might not be one of God’s elect? For me, to be an authentic Calvinistic, they would have to be humbly admitting that they too may have been chosen for destruction and not salvation! Only God knows.
Imagine John Hagee telling his congregation that!
By the way, I’m not a Calvinist, not sure what I am, other than trying to be more like Jesus who I believe was the exact representation of the father, and what he did through his death, was enough for all men for
all time! Good News!!
maggie says
I came upon your website today. I was a happy born-again believer (thru Billy Graham) when our family’s church hired a calvinistic pastor. Never having heard of calvin’s teachings before, we learned from this pastor that we were “free willies” and “semi-pelagian” and “humanistic” and above all “man-centred” not “God-centred”. To make a long painful story short we ended up leaving because there simply was no tolerance for anyone who did not accept the 5 points and reject the ” heresy” of free will. We lost many friends and family over the division. I still keep in touch with a few of the more charitable ones, however, it is apparent that we are not considered to be on the right spiritual plane as them. Calvinism is in fact growing. More new churches are springing up, attracting young people who are unaware of any difference to what they may have learned before. Calvinism is heady stuff. It appeals to our pride to be considered more intellectual than those simple types who don’t accept its esoteric teachings. Arguing with a calvinist is futile. After leaving we went to one of the simple “grace” churches they so despise. There we found people who love Jesus and believe He came to save everyone who believes He died to save them. The love for the lost was genuine. Their humility was too, as they realized His gift of salvation is a free gift to all sinners who repent and believe. The emphasis is back on the cross and off of the mysterious gospel Calvinism presents for only the elect chosen ones.
Sue says
Maggie – This is the best of all the blogs found here as far as I’m concerned. I just now posted two other comments, but this reply to you will be a third one. I was also a saved, born-again believer (albeit one who struggles with full assurance issues), but I was not prepared for the shock of finding myself in a Calvinist church. I moved to a new state in May of last year and just started attending where my son and his family as well as my nephew and his family were already attending. It was during a teacher training class that I found out that this church is ‘Calvinist’ but I didn’t even know what that meant. Since then I have been researching, reading, praying, blogging, and mainly crying because this has just blind-sided me. I tried a couple of other churches and then felt I was deserting friends and family at the Calvinist church, so I went back. I’ve decided, however, that I must seek out a church of like-minded believers. You so eloquently described the gospel I believe in. To me, Calvinism represents ‘another gospel’ of which we are warned to steer clear of, or at least that’s what I’ve come to think. God forgive me if I’m wrong. Thank you for posting this, it is helping me to make the painful decision I am faced with. God bless you Maggie, and may we glorify God more as a result of this trial!
Adreeonah says
Hi Maggie!
I am definitely late as I am writing a response to something you wrote in 2016 as the year 2017 is coming to a close. Nonetheless, I just had to comment on your post because your words really resonated with me. I am a young African American female who is deeply in love with Jesus and desires nothing more than to become more like Him and implore others to be reconciled to God through Him. I never knew much about this Calvinist vs. Arminianism debate until about a year ago. Even though some have ridiculed the statement in their rebuttals above, I’ll just go ahead and say it anyway… the Calvinist debate just does not sit well with my spirit, I feel an uneasiness that I can’t quite put into words. I just a “gut feeling”. I may not be as eloquent and theologically astute as others on this thread and that’s okay because the common folk were just fine for Jesus. Anyways, what you said about young people in particular being drawn to the theological stance of Calvinism due to it being “heady stuff. It appeals to our pride to be considered more intellectual than those simple types who don’t accept its esoteric teachings.” More than ever I have become aware of the Calvinistic beliefs of some of the most brilliant bible scholars and people I consider mentors and friends! My spirit has become grieved even though most of my friends are like “what’s the big deal”? “Something” inside… dare I say the Holy Spirit (still praying and would never want to say something is a revelation from God and it is not) is leading me to think it is a “big deal” and that these people whom I love are being led astray and spewing false doctrine that appeals to their own prideful proclivities and demeans others in the process. This was just a long reply to say thank you, your post mirrored some of my same thoughts and I’m glad I stumbled upon it in 2017 at 9 o’clock on a snowy Saturday in Philly. God bless you!
Rod Rogers says
Hello, Jeremy. I just got on your website and have only read this article, “My personal history with Calvinism”. Growing up as a teenager in the 60’s in a Fundamental Baptist Church we never heard of Calvinism at church. So, when I was challenged with Calvinism, it was culture shock. I think mostly Calvinism has survived based upon the strangle hold Calvinists have on the discussion. When you are offered the choice of either being Arminian (Lose your salvation) or Calvinist (Sovereignty of God and Eternal Security) it is a no-brainer.
I just reread Pink’s, “The Atonement: Was the Sin Question Finally Settled at the Cross?” Everyone who commented on your page here should read it. The truth is that when a Calvinist gives you a couple of choices to decide from, you can be sure the correct answer is not one of those choices. It is embarrassing to list all the scriptures that Calvinists don’t believe. That is, they don’t believe them as they are written. Calvinist have to change the definitions of words in order to accept them. If you take all the man-made theological words (external call, internal call, effectual call, prevenient grace, common grace, reprobation, permissive will, et al) away from Calvinists, they couldn’t say a thing.
I hope your website challenges many to study their bibles. The truth will set you free, 2 Corinthians 3:17.
Sue says
You’re so right! I never heard so many man-made theological terms! The only one in my non-Calvinist understanding of the Bible (that I’m aware of) is ‘rapture!’ I just questioned where in the BIBLE ‘general call’ and ‘particular call,’ (or something like that) are found and the Calvinist Pastor nearly bit my head off and said, “I’ll get you the LIST!”
Jim Swindle says
My own history is different from yours. I’ve slowly moved to Calvinism, though I am sure that no theological system can do full justice to the Lord and to all that he’s revealed. There are surely truths in the Bible which some others have seen, but which most Calvinists have not…and vice-versa. I learned of God’s love as a child in a very non-theological church. I made a commitment to the Lord through a campus group and started learning bits of theology. I went through theological seminary as a four-point Calvinist. In the next years, I learned wonderful things from Mennonites and Pentecostals. I went to a memorable weekend conference at a Charismatic Episcopal church. Along the way, I’ve seen the enemy at work in the church, but I’ve seen the Lord at work in churches of various kinds and sizes. Now I’m in a church that’s Calvinistic. Calvinism isn’t the most important thing about my faith. My passion is for people to know the Lord and to know him better.
So, what’s Calvinism to me? Mostly that the Lord really did predestine people, since that’s what a simple-minded reading of the Bible says. The Bible seems to teach that he truly loves all people, and that Jesus died for all, but that there’s some special sense in which he died for his own. Mankind apart from Jesus is so broken that he can’t even respond to the gospel without the Spirit’s intervention. The Lord will finish what he’s begun, so that every true believer will not end up abandoning the faith. Predestination and perseverance in the Bible are used to encourage the believers, not to puff up their pride. It’s possible for someone to convince all those around, including himself, that he has real faith, and then to lose whatever it was that he had–so we must take the warnings as seriously as we take the assurances.
Craig Giddens says
Predestination in the Bible has nothing to do with God choosing who would be saved. Predestination only applies to an individual after they have been saved. God has predestined that all believers will be conformed to the image of his Son.
Tilùèn Kendhal says
“I didn’t want to be an Arminian, but at the same time, I knew I could no longer be a Calvinist.”
the story of my life ! I still don’t know what view I hold. I hope i’ll find what I need on this site ! Maybe God help me
Craig Giddens says
It may surprise many to learn that you can be a Christian and not be a Calvinist or Arminian.
Jeremy Myers says
Not a surprise at all! I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian.
Tatjana Virant Kramar says
I embraced salvation in Jesus Christ in my 20s. Until then I was an atheist with cultural background in catholicism that I thought was nothing more than politics and opium for the masses. The church then tried to make me arminian (and partially succedeed), while I thought I was still only christian.Then I rebelled and discovered other aspects of truth, calvinist ones, in another church who kind of made me a calvinist. Then God made me discover what I now consider real truth about unlimited atonement or universal salvation in Jesus Christ. (God bless tentmaker.org).I guess my heart always knew it, but I got sidetracked by being bombarded with different “theologies”. Now I study Bible myself, loving it! And reading everything from various protestant sources but taking for granted nothing . God gives me His revelations from His written Word, which His Spirit is confirming inside of me. I don’t have many answers yet. But He teaches me step by step and carries me on. 🙂
Jennifer says
I am also neither. We go to a Calvinist church, that is supposed to be non denominational, but Calvinist. Yeah I dont get that. I believe that both put God in a box. And to think any man can dwindle Gods plan for salvation to 5 points is silly. Isaiah 55:8,9 tells us that Gods our thoughts are not His thoughts and our ways are not His ways. For as the heavens are higher than the earth so are His ways and thoughts higher than ours. I have always struggled with Calvinism. It feels like it cheapens Jesus.
John Brillantes says
Why Gen. Santos City Missionary Baptist Church
REJECT CALVINISM AND ARMINIASM?
Lesson Text: John 3:14018.
Devotional Reading-Subject: God is Longsuffering, 2 Peter 3:9.
AIM: That the pupil understand that Jesus died for all sinners.
HOME READING
All Guilty, Romans 1:18-20.
Whosoever Shall Call, Romans 10:8-13.
Election of Grace, Romans 11:5, 6.
Not of Works, Eph. 2:1-10.
No Condemnation, Romans 8:1-4.
Believer Secure, Romans 8:35-39.
1. Because of What Calvinism Is.
The term Calvinism and similar terms come from John Calvin, the founder of the Presbyterian Church A.D. 1535. That is John the Presbyterian, not John the Baptist. Calvinism claims five points as a basis fellowship in doctrine.
First, there is total inability, the teaching man is so lost he cant respond to the gospel. A sinner is totally unable to save himself; however, that does not mean a sinner is unable to hear, repent, and believe (Rom. 10:8-17).
Second, there is unconditional election the teaching God determined in eternity whom He would save and who would be lost forever without any consideration of repentance and faith. That doesnt harmonize with the Lords teachings (Luke 13:3, 5; John 8:24).
Third, there is limited atonement, the teaching Christ died only for those whom God determined to save. Calvinism considers atonement for all mankind being wasteful with the blood. Part three will deal with this matter.
Fourth, there is irresistible grace, the teaching to elect cannot resist Gods grace when it is time for them to respond. However, the Bible gives many examples of people resisting God. In fact, Hebrews 4:2 speaks of some who resisted the gospel by their unbelief.
Fifth, there is the perseverance of the saints, the teaching of security of the believer for every true believer. All true Baptist accept this point, But it was a point of Baptists long before Calvin lived (John 3:27-29).
2. Because of What Arminianism Is
The term Arminianism comes from Jacob (or James) Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived most of his life after Calvins death. His doctrine is also stated in five points and one can see they are directly opposite to Calvinism.
First, there is mans ability to work with God in spiritual regeneration, a strong denial of the total depravity of man. Also, it is an indication of salvation of works. One who studies the Bible should know total depravity is a Bible doctrine (Eph. 2:1-3). Also, he should realize salvation is Not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph. 2:9).
Second, there is election on the condition of Gods foreknowledge of who would believe and endure to the end. One can accept an element of this if this doctrine doesnt go so far as to have God decreeing some to believe and others not to believe. The fact is people are elected to salvation by faith in Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:26). Also, the idea of enduring to the end is salvation by works, pre and simple. It wont work, because the Lord finished all the work necessary for salvation (John 19:30).
Third, there is unlimited atonement, teaching Christ died for all people. Assuredly, not all people will receive Christ, but all people could receive Christ. He did die for all mankind, which will be the point of part three.
Fourth, there is falling from grace, the natural result of teaching salvation by works. It is the direct opposite of security of the believer. It is also the direct opposite of Bible teaching (John 5:24).
3. Because Christ died for All Mankind.
At the heart of Calvinism is limited atonement. Christ dying for the elect. The Bible offers ample proof Christ died for all mankind.
First, Isaiah 53:6 predict God would place on Christ the iniquity of us all. That would be unnecessary, if He died only for the elect.
Second, Luke 19:10 states, For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. How many humans are lost?
Third, the lesson text indicates salvation is available to all mankind (John 3:14-18). How many indications of this can you find in the lesson text?
Fourth, 2 Corinthians 5:14 states, For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead. That is self-explanatory.
Fifth, Hebrews 2:9 clearly asserts Christ tasted death for every man. Christ died for all mankind.
Sixth, 2 Peter 3:9 portrays God as not being willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. That would be strange, if God decreed certain ones would perish.
Seventh, 1 John 2:2 teaches Christ satisfied the just demands of the Holy God for the sins of the whole world.
For Discussion. Examine 1 Timothy 2:4; 4:10 in regard to this point.
4. Because Salvation Is by Grace.
At the heart of Arminianism is salvation by works, the idea man must work to be saved and to go to Heaven. Along with that is the teaching one can lose his salvation. The Bible will not support either view.
First, a person is saved by the grace of God. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8). If it is the gift of God, man cannot be of works (Rom. 11:6).
Second, a person is saved by the mercy of God. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5).
Third, the believer is eternally secure in Christ. How could it be any other was as long as the believers life is hid with Christ in God (Col. 3:3)?
Besides, Missionary Baptist are not obligated to accept either classification of Calvinism or Arminianism. They need only be Missionary Baptists.
For Discussion. Do you reject these classifications?
Patty says
Both this article and the comments have been very helpful to me. Our family has become divided because of Calvinism. Some of our adult children have become Calvinists and have become very hard hearted and judgmental. They refuse to find “common ground” that they can agree with us on. We have watched their personalities change before our eyes and realize we are going to have to let them go. Reading many of the comments here show me that our experience is rather common. So many have experienced similar things from the Calvinistic churches they have attended. I don’t mean to take comfort in others’ misery, but it is somehow comforting to know we are not alone in the things we have experienced.
r. yates says
Ask them this…”Would a just God send a man or woman that he has created in his own image, into an everlasting burning hell of torment when they are faultless and have committed no crime? If they answer “yes”, they haven’t read enough of the Bible to know that God is just in all his ways…so show them he is just and never changes. If they answer “no”, then tell them what the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination declares….i.e., it declares that God by a sovereign act of his will, unconditionally elected and predestined some to be saved (which they call the elect), and the rest of mankind he predestined and elected to burn in hell forever through no fault of their own before they were born….then remind them that the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election says that God couldn’t and didn’t even use use his foreknowledge to look down through time to see who would and wouldn’t accept Christ because that would have made Gods foreknowledge of mans acceptance of Christ a condition of salvation…
Craig says
It’s not about putting people in a Calvinism or Arminian camp. It’s what the Bible teaches.
Since I believe God is not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance, that does not make me an Arminian. It makes me a true Believer who correctly handles the word of God.
Jonathan says
For me, i became enthusiastic about soteriology only about 1.5 years back and one of the first issues that got me interested is the lordship salvation vs free grace debate. By and large i hold on to a free grace orientation except that i do hold serious reservations on the issue of apostasy especially when it involves the believer fully renouncing his faith in Jesus Christ. Now to the topic of calvinism, while many calvinists are rather heavy handed in dealing with tough passages of scriptures (e.g hebrews 6 and 10 warnings), I think it would be a gross generalization to say that all calvininists neccessarily hold on to lordship salvation. It is to my understanding that chuck swindoll, rt kendall and charles ryrie are all calvinists but when listening to their preaching, its quite clear that they lean towards the free grace perspective and they are some of my favorite preachers by the way
Nicole says
Hi! I am semi new to all this and was wondering if you could help me understand- because in my head it’s all jumbled! If God is sovereign wouldn’t He be the one to draw us to him and so guess the term is “elect” us? If he isn’t fully sovereign and we have choice whether to accept him or not, would we then have some sort of sovereignty in us? Please help this newbie!!
r. yates says
John 6:41-45…God does draw us…but how? First you have to understand that Calvinists, Lutherans and Arminians and Catholics for the most part say that God saved you before your were born by giving you a gift of prevenient grace…prevenient simply means grace that preceded your salvation and was given to you before you were born…and grace simply means unmerited favor, which is favor that can be justly withheld without impugning the integrity of God who is just in all his ways and never changes. This doctrine of prevenient forces us to look at their Doctrine called Total Depravity, which simply alleges that you were born a guilty sinner because of Adams sin and that his sin caused you to inherit a fallen nature or a sin nature like a disease, so that all you could do when it came to salvation was to sin…in other words, you lost your free will to fully obey God and there was nothing you could do to save yourself….you were born a dead guilty sinner under a sentence of eternal hellfire, torment and damnation, through no fault of your own. So what does that mean? Well. you have to understand their doctrine of Total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and eternal security and know what they mean when they say saved by grace alone, faith alone through Christ alone to understand…and when you understand those things, you will see what they are really saying is that God elected and saved you before you were born by a sovereign act of his will that disregarded your wants, desire, or co-operation….in other words, you had no say in whether or not you would be saved. This is known as the debate between those such as arminians who hold man has free choice in salvation and Lutherans and calvinists who say man has no free will choice in salvation…thus, when you know the lingo you will understand that when calvinsits and lutherans and catholics say that you are saved by faith alone, what Catholics means is that it removes the stain of original sin so you can hear and respond to the Gospel while calvinists and lutherans mean that because God predestined and elected you to be saved before you were born by giving you a gift of prevenient grace, you will be able to hear the Gospel message when it is preached, and respond to it s because God elected you to salvation before you were born ….thus when they say saved by faith through grace they mean you are saved by prevenient grace before you are and will be able to walk that salvation out by faith because you were sovereingly elcted to salvation before birth…there are some subtle differences among these groups but that is generally what they are saying…Now to a novice that will be confusing but your understanding will begin dawn when you learn the difference between grace and mercy as they apply to the doctrine of total depravity….So if you want to learn, look at it like this….if “Grace” is unmerited favor, which simply means favor that you don’t deserve and that can be justly withheld without compromising the integrity of the giver, how can we be saved by grace when they define the doctrine of total depravity as follows…i.e., because of Adams sin, you were born a guilty and totally depraved sinner headed to eternity of hellfire and torment through no fault of your own, and there is nothing you can do about it…you simply inherited a sin nature from Adam, like a disease, and that disease removed your free will and made it impossible for you to do anything but sin when it came to salvation. Now ask yourself…would a person born into that horrible state of affairs merit grace or mercy? Lets define Mercy. It can only be seen in the legal setting of the great Judges court room. Mercy is the opposite of Grace. Mercy is favor that a person merits and that can’t be withheld without compromising the integrity of the Judge. If you agree that such a person born under a sentence of hell merits mercy, then you admit they are not saved by grace (unmerited favor) but by merited favor…and the Bible tells us Eph 2:8, that we are saved by Grace…Once you understand all of that, you can start to try and understand how God draws man…The key scripture is Heb 2:14, 15…God draws all me through the hopelessness that the fear of death created. In other words….when Adam ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, the knowledge of sin entered the world Rom 5:12, and through sin, physical death fell upon all man. The knowledge of sin permeated the atmosphere with the knowledge of evil i.e., Pride, Sloth, Lust, Envy, Wrath, Greed & Gluttony. The Devil used the fruit of lust to draw Eve into sin, and get her to disobey God….and the devil has used the same 7 deadly sins to draw all of mankind away from God. The devil uses the evil fruit in the world and mans fear of death to draw us away from God, and God uses the fear of death to draw all men to himself. In our hearts is a desire to live forever…until despair sets in…that the devils endgame…he wants to steal your joy and hope in Christ and get man to despair. Try to focus on learning about Christ and his word and try not to tackle these protestant reformers until you are well versed in Gods word…for salvation has nothing to do with mans wisdom, it simply asks, “Will you put your loving trust in Christ”? Do that and read the word and you will fare well…for it is the word of faith as stated in Rom 19:9, 10 that is preached….i.e., if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved…for with the heart man believes which makes you righteous in Gods eyes, and with your mouth you confess Jesus before man and the heavenly host which causes God to deliver you from darkness.
r.yates says
it gets worse…eventually you come to realize that if grace is actually unmerited favor, then Total depravity is actually merited favor i.e., what the Church calls grace is actually mercy… sad but true…the Church has the doctrine of Original Sin backwards….and we wonder what keeps the body divided…the abandonment of reason…
Charles Snyder says
Human conjecture can easily become theory, opinion, or what I call gray areas of human thought. Reliance on the Scriptures in whole is the key to knowing God our glorious creator. The Word is a more factual representation of who God is and what makes Him tick. I lean heavily on His Word as a whole to help me navigate in this sin sick world. Human interference can muddy the water on many issues that the Bible as a whole seems to be clear on. There is no question that there are mysteries about God that we will never know and as His creation we are not to know. It appears that many over analize or seek to pick apart and explain like scientists at every twist and turn all actions of God. To some degree that can be good, but more importantly that can be also be dangerous. Trust in God, communicate with Him in prayer seeking answers and help from Him in decerning His Word.
r.yates says
You sound like a politician…nothing concrete to be said…thus, what you said makes you appear to be a non-freewiller i.e, a Lutheran, Calvinist or Zwinglian that believes salvation is by arbitrary Sovereign Unconditional Election that excludes God foreseeing who will choose Christ, Christs grace (John 1:17), mans faith (Eph 2;8) or any other condition, desire or co-operation on man’s part….If that’s true, try to understand that unconditional election means there is no condition a man can perform or fulfill to be saved because salvation is Unconditional Election…and anyone who believes salvation is by unconditional election has not yet separated from the pack to take an objective look at what that means and what they are asking others to believe. Said another way, Unconditional Election is an Oxymoron because when it declares that salvation is by sovereign election before birth, it admits that salvation is not by grace through faith, which means that when such a person responds to the Gospel invitation they are forced to view the gift of salvation by grace through faith as a work or duty that has to be performed and that is required to walk out the salvation they sovereignly received before birth. .
Maryann says
Not sure how long ago you wrote this post, no date, but our family has never been Calvinist. Now we go to a very popular Calvinist church that we did not know was such initially. We enjoy the preaching and the fellowship. We do not like the fact that the youth pastor tries to railroad the youth into his Calvinist beliefs. Youth pastor is leaving soon, but it doesn’t change the fact that we face a choice of remaining in the church as straight up Bible believing Christians and try to make a difference or if it’s just pointless. People are even questioning our prior church an our children’s understanding of our faith, which all of our teens dedicate their lives to Christ years ago and two of them want to be missionaries or Bible scholars. My eldest has done a lot of research on the reformers and all of those Scriptures that Calvinists use to defend their ideas. We can see their fallacies and have furthered our conviction. Now I would like to ask you how do we go about finding a church that isn’t Calvinist? Are their good authors for my teens to read? And for myself, you mentioned a way that you study Scripture, in what way is that exactly? Thank you for your time.
Barry Sanzone says
I do owe calvinism a debt because when I first heard of it I was so offended, I went on an eight month bender just studying soteriology/the nature of salvation so I could refute this execrable blasphemy. However, I found the bible stepping on my own(Arminian) toes. I was seeing that Arminianism is just as unbiblical and blasphemous as Calvinism. You yourself stated, “But it was scary because I kept wondering how deep the rabbit hole went. I didn’t want to be an Arminian” I didn’t want to be an Arminian- you are very wise and have great wisdom to have known such a thing back then.
Berkley says
I am so happy that you humbled yourself unto the “understanding” which the Holy Spirit imparted unto you. Piper-ish Calvinism distorts the character of our Heavenly Father. It blurrs the reality of the “Gathering of the Bride” prior to the upcoming days of wrath, and, inserts itself as the supplanting entity for “classic Israel” as the “elect.” This said, every Reform preacher should do a better job at preparing their congregants to lose their heads in the upcoming Tribulation. This twisted Christianity will sap your joy, as its endgame is to teach the suffering of the saints as identification with our Christ. While this is factual, it is a minimal portion in the life of us who experience John 10:10
Kurt Bendixen says
Very interesting testimony, it is really challenging to find error once it’s fully rooted in. I didn’t experience Calvinist teaching till the church we were in sort of hit the stage were they preached it in all its glory, at which I first thought it was just a matter of semantics… nope they meant it like they stated it. Most of the shock is a distant past since we left that tulip church 8 years ago, in good standing, but alas even the church I’m in now is mostly Calvinist. Even this month I read a book that compared the beliefs of Calvin with John Wesley… As far as that comparison went I’m well fitted to Wesley, but I’ve never studied anyone’s theology formally, but have just stuck with the Bible and that seems to have served me well. That said, your classes in discipleship does intrigue me. I have been thinking of finding more formal training but I haven’t found anyone I trust given bad theology seems to never be advertised up front. Seems like you pick your theology the day you enter a college… Fortunately, much of my beliefs are formed now so I’m not to gullible, but I still feel more study is wise. Really I’m not afraid of opposing views, but I also don’t want to pay a bunch to start finding everything is somehow focused on Calvinism… Or some other lopsided perspective…
So anyway, quite surprised to see you are in animosa, I’m in cedar rapids!
Ed Kennedy says
Thanks for sharing your experience and valuable insights.
When I discuss the scriptures of the New Testament with Calvinists, it seems they have never heard of the scriptures I quote.
I pray that the body of Christ, wakes up and focuses on the teachings of Jesus Christ.
The doctrine of Christ.
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9
God bless you.
Ed
Stephen Becker says
Hi Jeremy. From the outset let me say that I think it best we not plant our feet too firmly in one Christian camp or another as I think you have already found out. For this reason we should not identify ourselves under any sectarian label for this only serves to divide Christ as Paul pointed out to the Corinthians at the start of his first letter. This isn’t to say there won’t be differences among Christians. But on what ground do our differences lie? And how do we handle those differences? Since we see know only in part(1 Cor 13:9), and see through a glass dimly(1Cor 13:12), we will error or stumble in many ways(James 3:2).
Therefore we should follow the lead of the Bereans and search the scriptures daily(Acts 17:11) in search of the truth, and be in much prayer about it(Ps 119:18).
Randy says
I find it difficult to find free non calvanist commentary on the internet. It seems like every web site is a calvanist site. Would you refer any free non calvinist sites for bible commentary?
Joseph Phillips says
Not a Calvinist, Cannot understand why a person want to be followers Of Calvinist theologians and only read Books written by Calvinist. God’s Word is all you need to Believe and live by. Gods Word will teach you and show you all you need and you not understand it until It is in God’s timing for you to understand and apply it to your life the glorify the Lord. Gods Word is for rebuking , correction, praising and Judgement For all mankind.
Terrance says
Raised Lutheran. Thought Calvinism biblical until John MacArthur said obedience and love have no part in salvation only sanctification. Author of eternal salvation to those who love, those who obey me. John also claimed we can never be righteous but Jesus said we must be righteous. John said Pharisees were perfectly righteous so impossible to exceed their righteousness. Wow! They were unrighteous sinners and this is what he said to claim that Jesus was just kidding. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ was righteous. No condemnation to those under Christ’s righteousness or is it those forgiven of sins and who now walk in the Spirit, in the righteousness of the law, in the obedience of faith as Abraham did? Jesus said you are not of your father Abraham or you would do the works that he did. Obedience is not an option but it is not a work it shows our love for our Master and it is about salvation. Raised up for our justification to intercede to the Father all our life long enduring until the end.
Adam Roach says
So I had a very base understanding of theology somehow I fell into calvinist teachers like John MacArthur and I really enjoyed Paul washer RC Sproul as well but I did not know there was such a debate from my reading of the scripture and I assumed it was unboxed because I’ve just recently figured out what Calvinists actually believe and what Armenians actually believe and I must say that from an unbiased non-intellectual reading of the scripturethat there is no doubt in my mind that God is completely sovereign over salvation and that are free will was corrupted in the fall that is obvious in the life and history of man which leads me to my final point why would Man’s Free Will have anything to do with the sovereignty of God I believe this Armenian line of thought is dishonoring to God and once again like the Roman Catholic Church puts way too much power in the hands of man also in the Gospel of John it says that the work of God is belief which means believing is a work there are no works attached to salvation so belief must happen after regeneration this is from a simplistic reading of the scripture by a non-trained layman by saying you must believe and repent to gain salvation you are saying you must earn it and what does Paul say about adding to the gospel?
Donna says
It has been an eye opening experience for us especially @ beginning of the pandemic. We had heard it touched on several times in sermons but, we overlooked it because the other teachings were so good. And then down came the Gauntlet with Ephesians.
We had meetings with the preacher and elders … yup there it was no denial of calvinism … and that is the way he wanted all of his pastoral team to preach . We feel it was hidden .. given to congregation as gradual….. (cultish) .
Joseph Smith started on his quest of mormonism …. then we have John Calvin all after the bible was written … changing it to there beliefs. Have you ever read , what John Calvin did to non believers!!!
So we are still looking for church after a year .., being very careful. Thank you for your post and honesty.
Abraham Thiessen says
I would only be a Calvinist if I listened to and read the scripts of human authors… I’ve been in a church for the last 15 years where the teaching switched drastically to Calvinism when a nee lead pastor came on board and I would assistant pastors then were selected for support… The 5 years prior it wasn’t a Calvinist Church… I left for a year to deal with it personally but returned… For the 15 years under the teaching I tried heartfully, emotionally, prayerfully and scripturally to except the Theology… I understand why they are so convinced in their Calvinist belief… After the 15 years I am now more convinced they have take God’s Word out of context and ascribed a human thought/reasoning to the term election and “injected” salvation as a direct consequence of election… All of the people of the Jewish ancestry were “elected” to be God’s chosen people, but not all Jewish people will be saved, Paul makes that clear in Romans… So then, when Jacob was elected, didn’t imply he was saved, and the counter part, his brother Esau who was not elected, was condemned to hell… Those thoughts would be human reasoning, for the Word doesn’t teach that… To get over indifferences the pastors defense was the following… Some of God’s words are like to fists coming together, difficult to understand… I would argue they are only fist/knuckle butting because they preach the word in error… I would ask, what kind of God would “hate” a child/baby in the womb even before it had a chance to sin, not yet born, only conceived, and then tell his followers to love even your worse enemy… Now that’s knuckle butting and contrary to a God of love… Simply said, don’t add to what’s not already there, period, for that’s what God really hates and he said so, twice, in the old and new testament… God bless…
Daniel Pyle says
I’ve gone back a forth on this for a long time. Currently attend a Calvinist Baptist church. More convinced now of Classical Arminianism however, but it’s not a deal breaker for being involved in the church. For that I am thankful.
Michael Davenport says
Twenty-two years ago I was “brand new.” I was hungry, and I attempted to suck up everything. It didn’t matter if it was MacDonald or Hagee, Spurgeon or Meyers, if someone called themselves “Christian,” I was listening. Regarding Calvinism, I admit, I was confused. Then I began to focus on God’s character, and things began to jump out at me.
My dad always taught me, “A half-truth is a complete lie.” So, did “whosoever” (John 3:16) really mean “whosoever,” or did it hide “…whosoever I chose from the beginning of time”? Did “…but you would not” (Luke 13:34) really mean “…but you could not”? Was the LORD forgetful or just deceitful when He asked, “…how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?” (Num. 14:11) I mean, if Calvinism was true, signs alone were not enough. They needed regeneration. If He had regenerated them, “irresistible grace” means signs were, well, unnecessary! There are countless examples of this idea. Then I went a step further.
Yes, God is sovereign. So we did not choose to be born. We did not choose to be slaves to sin. According to Calvinists, those headed to hell cannot choose to respond to God because He chose not to “regenerate” them. So, because we were born (not our fault), because we are guilty (not our fault), and because He did not regenerate us (not our fault), and because it is His right to do as He chooses, He chooses to send the vast majority to hell. I created my own little parable too long to add here, but that more than turned me from Calvinism. That may be the Calvinist God, but it is not MY God!
For me, Calvinists impugn God’s character and call evil good. I pray for them.
Kevin K says
I am a first generation Christian and started reading the Bible at age 18. I honesty do not understand how a person can read the Bible Genesis to Revelation and come away with “ANY” of the 5 points of Calvinism but mostly Exhaustive Divine Determinism. I used to think I was an Arminian until I really learned what they believe. I believe Jesus died for ALL and the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation and whoever believes and puts their trust in Christ can be saved. So not sure what that makes me. Your testimony was very interesting and encouraging and your articles are good study material. Thanks for sharing I found your site looking for a study on the Prodigal.
Blessings, Kevin
Christian Weiss says
I was born again in 77’ adopted Calvinism in 91’ was a pastor in a reformed church from 2006 to 2010. Left Calvinism in 2015. Sproul states the essence of Calvinism stands or falls on the understanding that regeneration precedes belief. That is crucial to election and the rest of the points. The thinking goes that if you are dead spiritually you must be made alive before you can hear and believe the gospel. And yet the scripture says that the gospel (the birth the life the death the resurrection and the return of Jesus) is the power of God unto salvation. God created the creation through the power of the Word ((Jesus). God said let there be light and there was light. Did the physical elements of light, protons, neutrons , electrons and electrical charges have to exist before Gods said let there be light for the event to happen. No. God said let there be light and there was light, something out of nothing or better understand something out Himself. The theology of regeneration preceding belief does not stand up under scripture. We got after the church of Christ because they believe that salvation happens at the time of physical baptism. They have fit God into an understanding of how God operates. And yet that is exactly what reformation theology does. RT tells God how He has to operate. It is a system of belief. Isn’t that complete craziness that we humans think we can explain and prescribe how God operates. Were we there when God set the stars in the sky. Anyway, thanks for letting me respond. Christian Weiss
P1 says
My study of Ephesians was life-changing. Now, the pieces fit so beautifully together. I pray my notes will bless others…
Ephesians
Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles as well as the Jews:
“But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:”
Acts 9:15
Ephesians 1:1 KJV
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are at Ephesus, AND TO THE FAITHFUL in Christ Jesus:”
Paul was writing to two distinct groups. This is clear in the older translations prior to the corrupted Greek text written in 1881, which is the basis for all modern translations (except perhaps the NKJV).
1. Saints: the believing Jewish people as he recalls the promises of God to the nation of Israel in 1:3-12 – blessed with all spiritual blessings, chosen, predestinated, adopted, heirs, who first trusted in Christ; in Gal 2:15, Paul contrasts “we Jews by nature” to the “sinners of the nations (Greek: ethnos).”
2. Faithful: the believing Gentiles, which is clearly stated in 2:11.
“Saints” in NT Greek = holy ones
“Saints” in OT Hebrew = holy, godly; the Jewish people
The definition of the word “saint” has evolved through the centuries. Catholics, of course, redefined it to apply to holy, canonized individuals. Protesting Protestants, not liking that definition, changed the meaning to include all believers. But how did Paul use the word?
PRONOUNS
Watch carefully for Paul’s use of pronouns in Ephesians (and in his other letters): we/us (Paul includes himself) vs. you (defined in 2:11 as Gentiles; Paul excludes himself).
1:12 we [believing Jews]…who FIRST trusted in Christ.
2:12 That at that time YOU [Gentiles] were without Christ, being ALIENS from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Verses 13-16 go on to explain how God has united these two groups (believing Jews and Gentiles) into one.
2:19 Now therefore YOU [Gentiles] are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens WITH THE SAINTS [believing Jews] and of the household of God.
Ch 3 goes on to talk about this mystery age when the “the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel” (3:6) of which Paul was made a minister.
3:8 Paul is “the least of all the saints [believing Jews].”
[Emphases and brackets mine.]
Ephesians 1:1-12 describes the nation of Israel who:
•received ALL spiritual blessings (Gen 12:2-3, 22:18; Isa 61:6-9, 62:1-2; Rom 3:1-2, 9:4)
•was sovereignly chosen before the foundation of the world, God’s elect (Deut 7:6-7; Ps 33:12, 135:4; Isa 41:8, 65:8-10; Matt 24:22, 24, 31; 1 Pet 1:1-2,…) to be holy and blameless (Lev 19:2; Isa 26:2; 1 Pet 1:16, 2:9,…).
Keep in mind when reading Peter’s use of the word “elect” in 1 & 2 Peter that he was an apostle to the Jews (Gal 2:7-8). Jesus also called the Jews “the elect” in his description of Great Tribulation events in Matt 24:15-22.
•was predestinated (Rom 8:29) unto the adoption of children (Rom 9:4; Gal 4:5, 28)
•is accepted in the beloved (Isa 45:25; Jer 23:6)
•has redemption through his blood (Zech 9:11; Rom 11:26)
•received abounding wisdom and prudence (Rom 3:1-2)
•obtained an inheritance (Eph 1:14 states the Gentiles were sealed to the Jews’ inheritance; Gal 3:14-18; Rom 4:13)
•FIRST trusted in Christ (Jn 1:49, 12:13; Matt 16:16,…)
Bevin says
I am not a Calvinist. My journey is similar to yours. Calvinism is very easily acceptable to a new believer as it is seems (not actually so) logical. I have come to the conclusion now that it is built of philosophical structures and not theological ones.
Like you, my first roadblock was limited atonement and currently my biggest objection to Calvinism is the root of TULIP where they push the boundaries of the depravity of man so much that it impinges on freewill, making man a robot.
Calvinist bypass this automaton pit by saying that man is free to choose what they desire and then they go on redefine depravity saying man is free to choose what they desire but what they desire is always against God. Unless God steps to “regenerate the elect” man cannot exercise faith! Then why did God give us the Bible. God wants us to accept him by listening to his Word and making a choice (Is 1:18), just as Adam did. I find the Calvinistic reasoning here to be clever, but circuitous as they introduce another variable, “desire” into the equation.
Calvinism makes the gospel impotent, God a capricious despot and humans to be puppets.
Wayne says
Hiya,
I’m just curious if you can recommend specific books looking at predestination/Ephesians that don’t assume a Calvinist perspective?
I’m struggling on what to believe at the minute, thanks for any recommendations 🙂 .
Jaw says
You don’t need a book to decide on Luther’s idea of double predestination or Calvin’s idea of Single predestination.
Predestination can only be answered after you decide if man is born with freewill or without. That’s the question you have to answer first. To do that you have to understand Calvins TULIP doctrine. … specifically the “U” , which stands for Un- conditional election. Calvin says you are pre-destined by unconditional election where he means that God created some people for heaven, and some people for help, who had no say in where they would spend eternity. Versus Luther who said that God predestines men to heaven who have no say in the matter, but does not predestined men to hell. He says men who go to hell do so because they chose hell. He said that, because he realized by Calvin saying that God creates men in his own image for hell that he’s making God the author of evil. But if you’re reasonable you can see that Luthers argument wouldn’t stand up in any court because you can hear the cries of those on their way to hell Crying out judicial bias, I want to retrial…your honor , It’s not fair that they get to go to heaven because they had no choice in the matter, but I have to go to hell because I had a choice and chose wrong. Please take away my free choice and send me to heaven too.
Paul C Draper says
I have difficulty comprehending how anyone with a brain can tread so many verses in a Calvinist perspective.
I come from an RCC background and served in the UMC 24 years in pastoral ministry. But biblically, it seems so stunningly simple. Calvinism in a nutshell means predestination. Nothing short of this. And by definition predestination is double predestination. God secures not only the outcome but every single step and every creature and atom in the universe and beyond.
As an analogy Calvinism is a hermetically sealed system of logic. It allows for no true variance. Biblically, there is absolutely no room allowed for inconsistency. The tiniest pinprick of free will in this Calvinist package will let in an immeasurable amount of corroding oxygen. Oxidation ages anything organic, and rusts and corrodes metals. It allows everything to be ruined. Fruit, vegetables, meats, breads with yeast, coffee… everything! One strong biblical suggestion of free choice and the pin prick ruins the entire purpose of the hermetically sealed package. Thank God! If the scriptures EVER use the words.. CHOOSE..REPENT .. OBEY… DISOBEY… REBEL… HARDENED… and the game is over! Very clearly there are dozens of such pin pricks in the package. Mold, rust, corrosion, oxidation of every sort is occurring and Calvinists still wish to discuss this imaginary hermetically sealed package. If it’s ruined, bad stuff was placed in there BEFORE it was sealed. HUGE PROBLEM! There was no “before God”. Satan actually began the corruption. He is the first prick!
jawbone says
true..God would not create a being in his image and deprive it of freewill…for that is what single or double predestination does. scripture zealously affirms freewill.
Masibo, Kenya. says
Still finding out.
But I’m currently noncalvinist.
I can’t stand their nuendos.
Ajit says
The scripture that helped me most is one of the ‘Kingdom of Heaven is Like’ examples Jesus gave in the Story of the Wedding Banquet invitees. Jesus concludes it by saying many are called but few are chosen, thus giving the clearest picture to me of what God means by called and chosen.
Bob Sharpe says
I came from a non-Christian home. I was saved at 16, and became involved in an evangelical church that didn’t take a doctrinal stand on anything except the “biggies” – the Trinity, the inspiration of the Scripturas, salvation, etc.
I entered Moody as a 14-month-old Christian. At that time I learned most of my Bible doctrine from preachers (mostly Baptist) on the radio and from reading Moody Colportage books. I had never heard of Calvinism or its peculiar take on election, predestination, etc.
The first time I heard of Calvinist predestination was from another student in the dorm. My classmate showed me some Calvinist proof texts and gave me his interpretation. I was dumbfounded. Although I had read the New Testament through a couple times in my first year as a Christian, I had never seen the Calvinist spin.
Through several discussions, I became a Calvinist. After all, he was showing me the Bible, and I couldn’t argue against God! I felt uneasy about the teaching, however. I had a strong passion for soul winning, and I couldn’t reconcile my new belief in Calvinism with evangelism.
I was only at Moody for one year before I transferred to Detroit Bible College. I didn’t take Systematic Theology at Moody, and I didn’t hear much about Calvinism in the classroom or in chapel there.
My dip into Calvinism didn’t last long. I looked at the proof texts long and hard, and within a few months, God had delivered me from Calvinism through studying the Word. I didn’t read any books pro or con during that period. I just wanted God to speak to me from His Word.
The next year, at Detroit Bible College, I was taking a class on the Book of Romans. One day our teacher read the proof texts in Romans 9. Then, with a wierd look on his face, he hesitatingly said, “Do you know what this means? I’m afraid it means double predestination.” He sounded apologetic when he said it.
That was more than 50 years ago. I’ve had a lot of conversations with Calvinists since then – especially during the years I lived in Canada, where I planted a church. Calvinism is rampant there.
I’ve noticed a few things when dealing with Calvinists:
1. They are name callers. They have pejorative names to call any Christian who does not believe Calvinism.
2. Many of them are arrogant. Like the gnostics of old, they think they have a higher level of spiritual knowledge than other Christians.
3. Many of them don’t seem to have the capacity to look at Scripture without looking through the lens of Augustine, Calvin or their minions.
4. They find their doctrines by taking selected passages of Scripture out of context.
5. They defend their doctrine by redefining certain Bible words. Redefinitions, by the way, that are not supported by the Greek.
6. Most of them are less evangelistic than other Christians. They will point out to Spurgeon and some other Calvinists who had a heart for evangelism, but they are the exception, not the rule.
I’m thankful that God delivered me from Calvinism. Calvinism would have kept me from the ministry God has given me:
Please understand, I am not trying to boast when I list the things God has done. These things would not have happened if I was still a Calvinist.
1. I have planted churches in the US and Canada.
2. God has given me the privilege of winning hundreds of souls to Christ over the years.
3. I have been able to train hundreds of soul winners.
4. I was able to write the book, How Your Church Can Change the World (I never would have written that if I was still a Calvinist).
5. I have trained many pastors in the Philippines to lead their churches in Evangelism by Multiplication.
6. I’m 74 now, and in 3 weeks I leave for the Philippines again to plant two new churches and to conduct Evangelism by Multiplication Training for 150 pastors for the Southern Baptist Convention of the Central Philippines.
I’m in the 9th inning of my life, and I’m swinging for the fences!
James Chanbonpin says
God Bless you. My leave of Calvinism was gradual, much like yours.
Sermons from Joe Schimmel sealed the deal for me.
God Bless you and thank you for your work. I have cited it before in referring Calvinists to the Word of God in proper context.
God Bless your ministry.
Richard W. Newman says
I am in a Calvinism bible study now. I am neither a Calvinism or a Arminism christian. I go to a non denominational church which teaches the bible. But because over the years I find non denomination churches are teaching false scriptures. I came up with a name for what I believe I am, a “BITAJITOW” , (Bible Is True And Jesus Is The Only Way.)
MR says
I’m assuming this comment box would be limited on how much I could actually comment about. 88 I stumbled upon what I thought was some good Bible teaching, started attending that church in O.C. CA. I eventually stumbled upon one of their many other church plants that was closer to where I lived and became much more part of that fellowship. Over time young people from CURE started influencing everyone with Calvinism. For a lot of years from that time I started reading their books – mostly R.C. Sproul and other resources from Ligonier. I wouldn’t call myself a former Calvinist – I was just researching and kind of accepting a lot of it. But I also was becoming confused with it all too. I kind of shut the door / closed the book on it all after hearing R.C. Sproul making fun of people who say we need to receive Jesus, and especially finally after I had processed through their opinion that we are so dead in sin that we have to be regenerated so we can believe. Years later I read a book that further pointed out that if God unconditionally elects certain people for salvation before they are born he also unconditionally elects other certain people for damnation before they are born. NO WAY! CERTAINLY NOT! I agreed with that author – Where’s the love?
James says
I was raised in Calvinism but left the idea of faith in my teens when I asked a leader why God did not demonstrate His supernatural power as in Exodus or Acts. His response was that He simply chose not to by his sovereignty. I came to the conclusion that religion was really a matter of culture passed on from person to person, family to family. It seemed inconsequential and irrelevant compared to the world.
Decades later I experienced Gods supernatural love and power. I became a fastidious adherent to church and bible study and consumed recorded sermons continuously. I learned much.
Eventually, through a series of circumstances I came to a major crisis in faith when I realized that much of what I had learned about God and theology was borrowed second hand knowledge. My understanding of scripture was heavily filtered by theological bias and religious pride. It was instantaneously stripped and I had to begin again a journey to know God. The only foundation I had to build on was the very fact stated in John 3:16 and my personal encounters with Love.
In all this I would say the best place to learn about God and theology is not among believers and theologians although they are valid teachers but rather among unbelievers and walking closely with God. Otherwise theology is just theory.
God is truly manifestly good always. The accuser has been working from the start to convince us otherwise.
Jeff Strobel says
I just found this website today, 09/03/23. I, too, am not a Calvinist, nor ever was. I am wondering if you have ever read George MacDonald, 19th Cent. Scottish novelist, pastor, non-Calvinist theologian. I have studied his theology and faith perspective quite a bit.
Carolyn F Aleven says
I have been back and forth on Calvinism for decades. It wasn’t until we joined a 5 point group of believers about 4 years ago that those beliefs began to change. It was limited atonement that went first; in fact was I was originally challenged when MacArthur taught “God so loved the world/whoops the elect —”
I chose to ignore that until election was taught. Now I’m looking for truth.
I hesitate to read books on all this and yet I feel like I’m spinning my wheels. Then when I came across a universalist website your website was recommended. So here I am. I’m a bit nervous cause I don’t like my beliefs challenged but I seem to be unable to stay in the ‘status quo.’
Elizabeth I. Yap Imperial says
Is John Hagee a Calvinist?
Daniel says
When you 1 Timothy 6:1-5 on false teachers and look at Calvinism, it sadly describes Calvinism.. conceited, understand nothing, having an unhealthy interest in quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, and evil suspicions.
Jesus is right when he talks about false teaching in which you will know false teaching by their fruits.. if the fruits of Calvinism leads to elitism, arrogance, lack of joy, grace, compassion, and love, is it really true teaching or false teaching? True teaching should lead you to become more like Christ.
Carole says
I am struggling. In all my 54 years of life I had never heard the terms Calvinism or Arminian. I was a believer and that was that. I was actively involved in a church and hosting a Bible Study. When we were talking about predestination in Ephesians I said I believed in the foreknowledge of God knowing who would follow Him, but that He gave us a free will to choose whether to follow Him or not. I was then told I had bad theology. This has rocked my world. I couldn’t believe another believer would ever say that to anyone. There are mysteries in the Bible we will never understand this side of Heaven and maybe not even in Heaven. We are now in search of a new church because they are 5 point Calvinist even though nondenominational.
David says
I have a great story about calvinism…..would love to tell it!
Michelle says
Hi! I came upon your blog as I was looking up a greek word from the Bible. I was a mormon, then a Calvinist and now, I am prayerfully reading the Bible with as much non bias as possible. My desire is to come to my own conclusions and convictions based on the text itself. As I read the text of the Bible and the more I analyze Calvinism, I believe it is not biblical
Peter Macharia says
Thanks alot Brothe Jeremy. I would say that God is never limited and he can show Love generously. Therefore he created human beings with full functional freewill which He loves and gmhave respect for. our relationship with Christ grows from both fronts, our initiatives and an invitation from the Lord. If Satan was not at work, still men would be at liberty to make that choice of Loving God by themselves individually. But now the enemy devil complicates and hinders us from freewill choice, he force human to reject Christ through despair and confusion.
I quote a Scripture of how God used Peter to destroy his original idea that God wasn’t for the gentiles..
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days