A while back, a man sent me a question about how he should respond to his atheist son who has nothing but criticism for Christianity. He told me that he had read several books of apologetics, had used numerous arguments for the existence of God, and had tried to show his son all the important things that Christianity had done in the world over the past 2000 years.
Despite all the evidence for the existence of God and the arguments for the goodness of Christians, this man’s son was still not convinced, and remained an atheist. The son pointed out to the father all the hateful things that Christians said and did, as well as all the violent things that God commanded in the Bible. As a result, the son told his father that he could never believe in or follow a God like that or trust anyone who represented him.
This father wrote to me to see if I had any insight into what he could tell his son to show him how wrong he was.
There are two possible ways I could have answered him. First, there is this possible answer:
Somehow, I don’t think the flowchart above would help any atheist. Sadly, such a flowchart is the route many Christians choose to use when arguing with atheists.
So below is the edited and revised version of what I actually invited this Christian father to tell his atheist son:
My son,
You wrote about all the mean Christians you know, and how we have done and said so many hateful and hurtful things in history, and even in our own day.
You also wrote about all the violence in the Bible which was done in the name of God, and apparently by His command, and how abhorrent this appears to be.
Regarding these issues, I have only three words to say:
You are right.
You are right that there are lots of people all over the world and throughout time doing lots of horrible things in the name of Christianity.
And there is no point in me saying that all those people who are doing these evil things in the name of God are wrong, for they would probably say that I am wrong for disagreeing with what they do in God’s name.
So all I can do is agree with you.
Those hateful things should never have been said. Especially not when said “in the name of Jesus.”
Those hurtful deeds should never have been done. Especially not “in the name of Jesus.”
And while I do believe in God, I believe in the God revealed in Jesus, who looks nothing like the violent deity of the Old Testament. This doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in the Old Testament; I do. I just think something different is going on in those ancient texts than what most Christians assume. But whatever the Old Testament texts teach, they do not and should not give Christians a license to act like the devil in the name of God.
Here is what I believe:
I believe that Jesus called us to love people unconditionally.
I believe that any time anybody claims to follow Jesus but they do not love people, they are not following Jesus.
I believe that if what I practice is true, then these practices will help me love others more.
Yes, I know that there are lots of “religious” things about Christianity with which you object. But please know that none of that is important if it doesn’t help me love others like Jesus.
If these other religious activities do not help me love others like Jesus, then I hope that one day I am able to weed them out of my life as you suggest and become more like you. If they don’t help me love others, then they probably aren’t true. And If they do help me love others, I hope you will be able to see it in my life by how I treat others.
I love you,
Dad
I do not think that what I wrote will help this man’s atheistic son become a Christian, but it will certainly help the father live more like a Christian.
And that’s the point, isn’t it?
Christianity is not about proving others wrong, but about proving others are loved.
Do you have atheists friends or family members? I invite you to take a similar approach with them. Agree with our atheist critics! Admit and confess to the numerous places where Christians have got it wrong, and state that the only real goal of following Jesus is love.
If you do this, you may come to realize that maybe, just maybe, atheist are more in tune to the Holy Spirit than Christians are, and that maybe, just maybe, God is calling Christians to follow Him more closely through the prophetic voice of the atheist.
Am still working on my son .
Define “working on”. I’m thinking that working on someone is not a correct approach unless you are working on yourself.
I don’t know where you going with this what I mean is it the odd email now and back and forth with my son I have done all that I think I can do for now now it’s up to God timing and softening of his heart.
Some of the things people do and say “in the name of Christianity” are truly cringe-worthy. In many cases I think their actions reveal their true selves that in their twisted minds they attempt to validate by using the “God card” or the “Bible card”, thinking that both cards are the “trump card” that cannot be bested.
In my opinion the “God cards” and “Bible cards” they use have been modified by them to reveal a God and a Bible of their own making, and do not reflect the God or Bible I know.
The “trump card” is the love card. However, even that can be twisted into something that looks nothing like Jesus.
Right. Some of the things done in the name of God are little more than ways for people to justify their own selfish behavior.
Exactly. Look at all the evil things done by extremists in the world in the name of Allah or God. It makes no sense. They’re not listening to God but are listening to “man.” Because these individuals can’t think for themselves they believe and obey a “Santa Claus religion” where if they obey laws made-up by the “men” they listen to, they’ll go to Paradise and be rewarded with many virgins. Just like the child being told by parents that if he or she is a good little boy or girl Santa Claus will bring them lots of toys on Christmas Day. For these extremists it becomes like adults still believing in Santa Claus. How pitiful but dangerous and a complete waste of life.
If it’s a ‘genuine’ unconditional Love Card, there’s no other card you will ever need.
“Maybe atheists are more in tune to the Holy Spirit than Christians are.”
Thank you for this post, Jeremy, especially the last alinea. It’s a confirmation of something I’ve been experiencing increasingly in my relationship with my non-believing boyfriend. Something I really couldn’t put my finger on, but that you captured in words so perfectly. My partner has an amazingly well-developed bullshit radar (sorry for the words there!), especially when it comes to hypocrisy and false pretentions. He has high standards of equality and justice, and I admire his no-nonsense, non-pretentious way of walking through life.
I can’t ‘win’ arguments about Christianity with him. However, the thing I’ve come to realize, is that he might actually look more like Jesus than I – as a Christian – do.
Thanks. Yes, I believe that we Christians often think that we are the only ones who follow Jesus and try to following the leading of the Holy Spirit, but in reality, it may be people who are “non-religious” who are actually more in tune with what God is doing in the world.
I would not be surprised! Remember the prophets of old.
The prophets of old were not atheists. I think the reason atheists seem more in tune is because they are more in tune with the god of this world. Satan.. Makes perfect sense.
Atheists are no more than those who don’t want to have to answer to God. Everyone intuitively knows there is God and that the idea of no god is like not believing in the existence of builders of the house you’re living in. It’s just logic and common sense. A cause and effect scenario which spells reality.
They’re in denial. Vehemently so. Paradoxically some of who are considered to be highly intelligent are atheists..but should this be a surprise. This life is their reward. Jesus came not for ‘the righteous’ but the sick and suffering…or ..we might well be seeing predestination at work in front of our very eyes. But the bigger question is ‘define unbeliever’.. I don’t care if a person believes in God or not anymore..because that is not the issue..it’s a vacuous empty argument based on a false premise. The question is If a person know Christ Jesus. As far as I can tell, that ups the unbeliever quotient significantly. IN regard to ‘Christians’ who do not ‘behave’ Christian..well ‘maybe’ they aren’t Christians..and that a ‘Christian’ would say such a thing about other ‘Christians’ also has set oneself up to be questioned as well. Jesus stated, ‘you believe in God, you do well, even the demons believe and they shudder’ in other words, so what. And demons also Know Jesus is ‘The Son of God’ (properly understood in regard to what that means)…per one event where I demon said: I know who you are, you are the Son of God. It’s said that a Demon can Know Jesus is the Son of God but a common man can’t even believe in God. What does that say about a person.?
I agree. Someone who denies God can not be speaking for or acting upon the spirit of God.
I absolutely agree that very few (it seems anyway) Christians are even making an attempt to live as Christians as taught in the Bible. Christian churches are becoming so enmeshed in politics they’re just blocking people who want to know God but aren’t able to because they don’t have the correct political views. I’m sick of it all.
here’s the problem in discussing religion with an atheist: “Despite all the evidence for the existence of God and the arguments for the goodness of Christians”.
There is no evidence for the existence of any god or gods. It’s purely belief. You either have faith or you don’t.
Being a Christian does not guarantee goodness. For example, the Charleston shooter was a devout worshiper and he still went into a black church, full of hate and killed 9. To further compound how lacking in goodness, some Christians are, Baptist minister Huckabee stated that congregations should arm themselves in the event this happens again, which is about as far from the teachings of Jesus that I can imagine.
You are right. I agree with you. The “evidence for the existence of God” is not what scientific minds would think of as “evidence.” It doesn’t fit in the same category.
And you are also right that being a Christian does not guarantee goodness. Can anyone imagine Jesus wearing a sidearm while preaching the Sermon on the Mount? “If someone strikes you on the right cheek … whip out your .357 and let the bullets fly!”
Thanks for expressing it so well! Amen to that!
And your point is?
“I believe that any time anybody claims to follow Jesus but they do not love people, they are not following Jesus.”
I think this is the acid test really. Does my faith lead me to love? If not, there is something wrong 🙁
Indeed!
As an atheist, I want to say this is a very kind and considerate approach 🙂
I can only see it leading to both sides being closer.
Thanks for putting it out there!
Jeremy,
Your closing statements are right in line with my thoughts these last couple of days. I too have been feeling in my spirit that a prophetic voice is coming to us from the non churchy culture around us these days. If God can use an ass, He can certainly use anyone else. I would be negligent to mention, however, that there are insidious things happening in the spiritual realm that are entering in through ignorant Christians and non Christians alike. Let us therefore continue to be vigilant and watchful not giving in to the things of darkness that are happening all around us today. Let’s continue to pray with our armor on.
Agreed. From the atheists, the scientists and the gays come the voice of God saying things like ‘Listen to them!’
It does not endanger the essentials of our faith; why be afraid?
“Do not be afraid” is stated in the Biblical Scriptures 365 times, one for each day of the year. I think means it’s important.
I realize why /I/ sometimes sound like an atheist: because people’s child-minds have to be either ‘all-in’ with it or ‘totally against’ it. I also realize (a contributing ‘reason I sound atheist’) that sometimes ‘atheists arguing against Christianity’ is like ‘poor people arguing against Capitalism’—atheists aren’t “at the peak of the Christian mountain” (like poor people aren’t on top of the Capitalist heap), and we rich people aren’t going to give up our money just because ‘we don’t deserve it!’ 😛
As an atheist I appreciate when people act respectfully towards me. I am not argumentative nor do I challenge people’s beliefs in my daily life, but if you enter an atheist site, you will be expected to defend yourself and the objectiveness of many atheists can be seemingly harsh. If you preach, do not be surprised if some asks you to support your views without saying “Because the Bible said so.”
Personally, except for horrible behavior on the internet by both religious and atheists, I have seen more negative behavior towards atheists than religious in actual life. At work someone can get fired for making comments against the religious, but somehow gets a pass when slamming atheists. It happens all the time, just listen to the news. I only need to say “I’m an atheist” and wait for all the negative comments to start. I’m pretty much in the closet except for my freethinkers group since I don’t want to deal with all the abuse and challenges – many of which are poorly thought out, emotionally charged, and make little sense.
I used to be a church lady and knew spiritual principle and positive ways to live in accordance with God. After my minister pulled a “Jim Baker” and caused the church to split, I joined a newly formed church and started to question each and every idea that somehow bothered me though I brushed it aside. I was asked to be on the board and run a prayer group because of my reliability and consistent practice, but declined due to my new agnosticism. I pushed forward questioning everything. It was a dark time for me when I realized the layers of lies.
I learned to sort through views that are universally good whether or not you are religious and could hold up in a secular society. Moral conduct progresses as we learn more about our nature and psychology. We now treat the handicapped and mentally ill with more compassion knowing the cause of their distress. Consider the torture they experienced at the hands of the religious centuries ago. We now know that parents who do not spare the rod are more likely to be limited in using positive words of reinforcement, and non-violent discipline. Parents who use physical punishment tend to use the rod as a fall back because they are unskilled with verbal and behavioral modification and are frustrated with their children and their own limited options. They were never educated on better methods of reinforcing positive behavior. Though many children go on to live productive lives, prisons are filled with abused children who in turn lashed out at others. Question the Bible and it’s monopoly on morality – most of us would not kill our own child if God called on us to do so. We have rational minds that can sort through BS – DO IT!
As a side note: Protect secular society and the separation of Church and State. I always have, even when I was raised Catholic. It allows for questioning, diversity, and the search for truth. Whether you realize it or not, it protects your religious freedom. It creates a neutral ground in which you can be atheist, Christian, Muslim, etc. You will not be able to force your views into law onto others, but you will keep them in your private life. I think none of us wishes society were a Theocracy. Depending on the majority religion, we could potentially lose basic human rights that many died fighting for. As a woman, I could lose my right to vote and ability to dress in a manner of my own choosing. As a single woman, my income could suddenly stop – depending on the ruling religion.
Here is my advice when dealing with atheists.
1. Come from the position that they are good people deserving of respect. You are equals trying to make the best of what life offers. Push aside your judgements, negative comments and come from a place of positivity. You can choose to say here and just enjoy life accepting that you have differences – live and let live.
But if you can’t do this and have to voice your views…..
2. Do not challenge the atheist unless you are well prepared and willing to be knocked down. An atheist will not hold back saying that your view is unfounded, irrational, vapid, is a straw man, “appeals to authority”, and use a variety of Latin debate terms that you might not know. Some are even Biblical experts.
3. Do not attack personally. Push aside your emotional views of the person and comment only on the information, views and ideas. Keep your focus on the information always since you will be tempted divert the conversation as to how you feel as if you are being personally attacked and belittled. If you are being personally attacked, lead the conversation back to the topic. If you feel corned on your position, let the atheist know that you will think about this. Thank them for this insight.
Atheists tend to be highly intelligent, logical thinkers who can easily pick up BS, inconsistencies, flaws in thinking, incorrect facts, and see though many con jobs. Some can seem really harsh and objective, but if you learn to separate the message from the messenger, we can offer nuggets of gold that can help you on your spiritual journey. We can burn away falsehoods and in turn lead you closer to truth. There is nothing to fear about the truth since the truth just IS – it has no agenda. Whether Christian or atheist, we are both seekers of truth. If someone has found out a clear and undisputed truth, listen.
Take Care
Great!
I think the “violence” we experience is do to the fact that religious people do have big questions and doubts, they feel threatened. As you said “We have rational minds that can sort through BS…” Some of us don’t want to.
Bravo Kathryn I never thought I’d see such a well balanced and unbiased article on a shamelessly evangelistic website.
You are the future and hope for us all.
A pleasure to share your insightfulness
Bryan
France
I live in an area where I meet a lot of people who are agnostic or atheists (and not very many people attend church regularly). I understand that many people judge atheists harshly. and don’t understand them ( I have been guilty of that when I was younger). But I get so much criticism from others who are not Christians, maybe because of where I live -my religious beliefs are being criticized on a regular basis. I am not very traditional and I keep my spiritual life personal. Why does anybody have to justify what they believe? I just don’t get it? I don’t want to force anyone to believe as I do (I am a Christian and have explored many religions before accepting one). I respect Agnostics, Atheists, and other belief systems. The way people treat each other and care for one another is my main concern.
You have obviously not been to an open debate forum about atheism vs theology. I went into it with no intention to evangelize. Trying to evangelize to an atheist is like trying to plant a seed in harden concrete instead of good soil.
I posted my christian beliefs, how its a faith based religion and how I empathize with there skepticism, having been converted from an ex mocker of the bible. How did I convert? I was a sinner, recognized that, and repented deeply and whole heatedly to Jesus, and received a baptism of the holy spirit that moment.
This crap in the comment section that atheists are more sensitive to the holy spirit then christians…. What the? First of all a born again christian can repent at any moment when the holy spirit works on him and he/she realizes that they were doing wrong in their attitudes or lifestyle or whatever. But there is more to Christianity then just “being a good person”, you have to be born again and receive the holy spirit.
Loving thy neighbor (and thy enemy) is a big part to it. But if you have been baptized with the holy spirit, the holy spirit will lead you to do these things and change you from the inside out.
Back to atheists…
Atheists love to attack you when they figure out you are a christian. They absolutely love it and come at you in all directions. You can copy and paste this post all you want, and they will mock it guaranteed. They will cherry pick OT scriptures hard and literally call our God evil. They will make false claims like the bible claims the earth is flat, and twist your own words against you. They will search rigorously for the slightest inkling that you do not have all of the answers. They will use this hesitation on an all out assault on our faith, and even the holy spirit itself.
There is a VERY GOOD REASON why the lord told you to plant seeds in good soil, do not try to plant it on thick concrete. DUST OFF YOUR FEET AND LEAVE!!! Its a complete waste of your time and extremely draining on you physically mentally and spiritually. They are not SEEKING, they already know and hate God in their hearts. If you bleed your heart for these dogs they will drink your marrow and rejoice in your anguish.
No, better to just dust off your feet and leave when you figure out they are the worst type of soil to try to plant on. How exactly did Jesus rebuke the mockers again?
Thank you. I was beginning to wonder if anyone has actually read and understood the scriptures…instead of associating Yahshua with a false definition if worldy love? “sell all that you have and buy a sword” and Peter, his beloved desciple, the rock upon which his ecclesia was to be built had TWO. An atheist who consciously professes dark hatred for our heavenly father would NOT BE “loved” by his right hand UNTIL they repented and came into the fold!! Were the Pharisees who preached the dogmatic lies and hypocrisy loved? If you call this love, then yes…”your father is the devil” who do you assume is the father of spiritual darkness and scaled eyes, unable to see the clearness of truth? You guys have done EXACTLY what we are NOT to do..youve called evil good and good evil. Just as he said men would in this time. Gird your loins and UNDERSTAND that the sheep will be divided from the goat. Thanks Shane for sharing wisdom in a deaf congregation. Bless you brother in his precious blood!
If you are not living the unconditional love and forgiveness that Christ revealed on the Cross, to all people regardless of the their beliefs and behaviors, then you are not living a Christ-like (or Christian) life. No words of the Bible or number of rebirths will change that truth.
Amen! Love is the answer every time to every person on the planet.
A perfect example of a dangerous fundamentalist, frustrated in his ability to indoctrinate and retaliate by modern, evolved common law.
Be afraid!
It’s what I hate is that when Atheists deny the existence of God, yet have done no research on the proof itself.
Yet we could say the same to you about the denial of existence of facts. You would have us believe that an all out magical force created everything, every particle, every atom and yet you can’t even prove why. Science can prove allot of things including why, the reason we don’t “choose” to except the existence of a creator being is because the jar of honey is empty. You would have us prove that an empty jar actually contains something that it clearly doesn’t, I would call that that a gross over estimation of practicality and mislabeling a brand.
You have not absorbed or comprehended the substance and logic of the article.
Sorry, read it again.
Everyone knows someone who needs to know God. It is our job to live a life that makes them want the peace that we have. The atheists who write on forums like this are your most difficult target. Start with something easier. No one has ever been coerced into faith.
I began to seriously question faith in an Abrahamic deity when confronted with the discordant nature of the Old Testament. Essentially the problem is this: God knows all things and only does things that are pleasing to him. Therefore, if God created man, he knew that a majority of them would not make it to the wonderful ever lasting heaven. He also knew that those that failed the test would burn in eternal fires. It is logical to conclude that he wanted some to be saved and a lot more to be tormented? So either A) the bible as I have understood it is largely false or B) god puts a gun to your head, says worship me or die. Also kill anyone that refuses this offer…
And thats just one problem of theism in a sea of ill logic and outdated threats.
I think the problem of theodicy is a major nail in the coffin of “faith” mind sets.
God doesn’t chose a fiery pit for people. People choose that place when they deny God. Where did we ever get the idea that God makes the choice when clearly it’s people that choose it?
The reason it seems that some atheists are more in tune with God’s Spirit can be for different reasons. They could have had a good upbringing–either Christian parents/Grandparents/relative, or parents who taught them good morals like consideration for others, kindness, generosity, etc. or they simply choose to be that way, seeing that it brings good results, etc. Also, the Devil fights Christians and Christianity like crazy, whereas he sits contentedly and quietly as he watches and approves of atheists. So they don’t have the spiritual warfare that we, as Christians, have daily, and and we must continually fight our old nature, fight to be loving, unselfish, kind, generous, etc. Frankly, it’s not easy to be a Christian but we need to keep trying, do the best we can with God’s grace, and be loving and merciful to others…treat others as we would like to be treated, regardless of the other person’s religion or non-religion. And, “Blessed are the merciful (not the judgmental self-righteous Christians) for they will obtain mercy.
Love is the only true religion there is–love for God and others.
By the way, has anyone here mentioned the power of prayer? Prayer for others (not self-righteous condemning prayers) IS powerful. This is what missionaries have done always first and foremost of all as they began their mission work in hostile areas around the world. It is still a very needed thing to do, even more than arguing with atheists, besides being a sample not a sermon, as you say.
Thanks for an inspiring article.
I don’t know if God would want us to become more closer to him through an atheists voice. There are numerus reasons for why an atheist is an atheist. You know that right?, “just maybe, atheist are more in tune to the Holy Spirit than Christians are, and that maybe, just maybe, God is calling Christians to follow Him more closely through the prophetic voice of the atheist.”. I find this a little funny. Look through this part again and rethink what you said. I think you might of miswritten something.
As a person who left the church and faith after 60 years in the pulpit, I can tell you that most reasoned nonbelievers do not doubt the love of the most sincere believers. Nor do they doubt the good done in the name of religion (Jesus). What we doubt is the veracity of faith. We simple think that belief in imaginary beings is a waste of time, even sincere belief.
Well said, I’m the son of a pastor and i never believed. I know this is an old site but if any of you think that we atheists just haven’t considered X or heard Y you’re mistaken. Most of us know your religion (some of us actively study many religions) at least as well as you do and reject it. We look at the universe and see exactly what we would expect it to see if there was no supernatural entities.
We challenge your epistemology. We say you rely on logical fallacies. We did not decide to hate God so that we could sin. We do not know in our hearts that your god is real. This is not some conspiracy.
As for loving us despite our atheism, i assure you, we can tell the difference between loving us as people vs manipulating us with love.
If i could insist on one thing it would be that there are good atheists and bad Christians simply because they are people. No God or devil required. I am a humanist, that’s my personal metric for my actions. Humanism will never force me to do something bad. The moment someone tells me that humanism demands i do something that theoretically violates my morals i will find a new system of self governance. Can we say the same of religion? Once a religious person tells themselves that they need to lean not on their own understanding they become a weapon for whatever hateful preacher or horrible scripture that comes along.
Point is, yes i will go so far as to say i am inherently a better person than a lot of Christians i meet purely because i don’t have promise of reward or fear of punishment. Your atheist child is not broken, they are fixing what you’ve done to them. Instead of convincing them to believe perhaps you should genuinely reflect on why you believe without evidence.
As an atheist , here is the problem that Christians (and ANY adherent) faces :
1) Evidence is based on a corresponding epistemology (i.e. set of “rules” against which the evidence can be validated to confirm that it is indeed evidence).
2) To date there is no (non contradictory) supernatural epistemology. Maybe one day someone will produce one – but at present – there isnt.
3) Therefore BY DEFINITION of the meaning of “evidence” (see #1) and the absence of a corresponding supernatural epistemology BY DEFINITION there is no evidence for God (or any other god) , AND CANNOT BE.
Until and unless #2 is addressed, any discussion of evidence for God is moot.
Horrible advice. Since when has the unbeliever the Holy Spirit over those who are truly born again? This is just a philosophical stance you are making. Not set in truth and especially not a biblical one.
no amount of evidence will convince an idiot, MARK TWAIN god does not exist neither does SANTA CLAUS