Yesterday I wrote a long article about Bounded Sets and Centered Sets. In an attempt to simplify and summarize that post, here is a brief chart which I pulled from page 50 of Shaping of Things to Come
Underneath the chart is a brief video which you might also find helpful, and following that is a quote from C. S. Lewis which, although he doesn’t speak of bounded sets or centered sets, seems to address the concept. I have also written about this previously in my post, Belonging before Believing.
Bounded Set and Centered Set Approach
|
Bounded-Set Approach |
Centered-Set Approach |
|
The evangelizer is the expert who has special knowledge regarding God that the lost person must take in to be saved. |
Each person is the expert on his or her own life and has the God-given ability to seek for the truth. The evangelizer respects this. |
|
The “lost” person is viewed as flawed in character and sinful. |
Each person is viewed as created in the image of God–precious, valuable, and loved by God. |
|
Seeing people as simply lost or saved, it tries to paternally “fix up” sinners and make them like us. |
Seeing people as seekers, it tries to stimulate others to ask, seek, and knock, while understanding we don’t know it all ourselves. |
|
The goal is to get them to sign on, to profess belief, to become part of the team. |
The goal is for the process of discovery of Christ and the search for truth to be furthered in the person. |
|
A cataclysmic change occurs in people called “conversion.” |
Conversion is a process that does not begin and end with the profession of faith in Christ, but begins with the Holy Spirit’s prevenient grace on the person’s life and continues through repentance for a lifetime–the Kingdom comes. |
|
We Christians know and have the whole truth. |
We don’t know everything about life or God–humility and wonder remain. |
Bounded Set and Centered Set Video
Here is a video that also explains the concept:
C. S. Lewis on the Bounded Set and Centered Set Concept
[The] situation in the actual world is much more complicated than that. The world does not consist of 100% Christians and 100% non-Christians. There are people (a great many of them) who are slowly ceasing to be Christians but who still call themselves by that name: some of them are clergymen. There are other people who are slowly becoming Christians though they do not yet call themselves so. There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand…. And always, of course, there are a great many people who are just confused in mind and have a lot of inconsistent beliefs all jumbled up together.
Consequently, it is not much use trying to make judgments about Christians and non-Christians in the mass. It is some use comparing cats and dogs, or even men and women, in the mass, because there one knows definitely which is which. Also, an animal does not turn (either slowly or suddenly) from a dog into a cat. But when we are comparing Christians in general with non-Christians in general, we are usually not thinking about real people whom we know at all, but only about two vague ideas which we have got from novels and newspapers. If you want to compare the bad Christian and the good Atheist, you must think about two real specimens whom you have actually met. Unless we come down to brass tacks in that way, we shall only be wasting time.
C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
Thank you for introducing me to this 🙂 I look forward to learning more about it!
This is absolute nonsense, Jeremy, and you know it. The entire Bible is about God setting a boundary around His sheep and what they will eat (the Greek word for Law means “food for livestock”) and what they will evidence in their actions to show they belong to Him. The doctrine of “inside” and “outside”, “Jew” and “non-Jew”, “on the Way” or “off the Way”, “of the Kingdom” and “not of the Kingdom” is the very essence of the Word. The way is narrow and few are they who find it. At the end of time, the vast majority of humankind will be outside the New Jerusalem; only a comparative few will be inside with the Lord. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
You are treading a dangerous path teaching doctrine contrary to the Doctrine of Christ and anyone to whom this false doctrine appeals had best examine themselves and see just what’s wrong with them that they find it appealing.
God help you all.
You are preaching a different Jesus!
2 Corinthians 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
You “emphatically reject the Jesus that said:
Matthew 10:34-36
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
You want nothing to do with that Jesus. You are offended at that Jesus!
Frost & Hirsch is a good reference for what does not work. The centered set churches they describe all folded within a year or two. At least one folded before the book was even published.
I agree with Martus – following in the footsteps of the Apostles is the proper course.
But they didn’t give up on the centered set approach. Furthermore, there is a cycle to church planting and church dying which is very helpful in many ways. More churches can and should die. It would be beneficial for everyone.
Jeremy, I love this…and the quote by Lewis. I agree with Sam, Lewis was ahead of his time. Thanks you for this chart…my I use it…share it?
Absolutely. It is not my chart. It came from the book by Frost and Hirsch. Give them credit when you use it.
Interesting video, but Clive Staples knocks the ball out of the park, does he not? I wish I could be so direct and at the same time so succinct. Clive is saying the same thing as we’re trying to say, is he not? Perhaps he was way ahead of his time, an observation that seems to have escaped most of his contemporaries. Now I wonder where he came up with such ideas. Hmmm!
Yes, he hits a home run with every word that comes out of his mouth and off his pen. So clear, concise, and compelling.
Jeremy,
You have done it again. You have managed to find a topic so hot it brings out the calls of “heretic”, “false teacher”, and :going to hell”. It seems that the idea of an inclusive church where people are loved and valued based only on the fact that they are a unique creation of God is threatening to those who thing they alone hold the real truth. I would bet even money that those who agree you are wrong could not agree with each other on much else since they are each convinced ot the correctness of their own particular interpretation.
I have been really busy lately, so I have not been posting as often but I am still reading, and I still thing you are doing some really great things. I just thought you might need some encourageing words amidst the growing chorus of naysayers. I know that having these things said about you is nothing new, but that does not mean they get easier to hear.
Your Brother In Christ,
FedEx,
President,
Men of Praise Motorcycle Ministry
Jeremy “emphatically” rejects Jesus. He said so. He rejects a Jesus that states that he did not come to send peace, but a sword. Jeremy said that.
what happens to those who reject Jesus? What good does “LOVE” do if you reject the Jesus that said of himself that he did not come to send peace but a sword, to set variance against people?
Love won’t get you to heaven. Jeremy does not believe in preaching how one gets to heaven, and how to avoid going to hell. He just wants to love people. Even Evil people love people. What is their destination in the end? It doesn’t seem to me that Jeremy is concerned about their final destination, just so they love their neighbor and not cause division.
If he was concerned with their final destination, he would be straight with them, emphatically. The only thing he emphatically admits to, is rejecting a Jesus that sets a variance against people.
Where will Jeremy be when he dies? Is that not a concern to anyone? It is me! That, is love. He refuses to preach what about Heaven and Hell and who gets to go to either, and how. That is NOT LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR.
Edward,
This comment was dirrected toward Jeremy and was intended to encourage him. It was not meant for you or anyone else, and was certainly not meant to start an argument. I have learned through the years that people such as yourself are convinced of your own correctness and no amount of theological reasoning will sway you even one inch. Thus I choose to not answer you.
I also do not have to come to Jeremy’s defense, he is capable of handling his own battles. I will say, however, that calling someone a false teacher and condemning them to hell is not going topersuade me to change my position. Your careful selection of two verses ripped from contextual relevance and devoid of careful exegesis do not convince me of you correctness either. Again, I will not engage in unprofitable disputations, so please do not reply to comments that are not addressed to you.
FedEx
President,
Men of Praise Motorcycle Ministry
Thank you, FedExMOP. Even though your comment was directed to Jeremy, it can encourage all of us. We’re on this journey to help each other, not to dump on each other. I was hoping to meet you at Kathy’s WW conference a couple of weeks ago, when I was there. I’ve heard good things about you.
Sam,
I would have been honored to meet you as well. I have much enjoyed your comments here as well as your writings over at Grace Ground. I really wanted to make that conference, but I had a motorcycle accident a few weeks before and was still recovering.
FedEx,
President,
Men of Praise Motorcycle Ministry
Edward, you know not whereof you speak. I know Jeremy personally and have spent many hours with him in person discussing these very issues.
Did your mother never teach you to be nice to people? It is exceedingly rude and ill-mannered to get on another person’s blog and grandstand by condemning them. If you want to do that, do it on your own blog.
Get off your computer and go spend some time with the poor, the lonely, the broken-hearted and show Jesus to them in what you say and how you treat them. You will like life so much better than being a heresy hunter.
I refuse to interact with either you or Martus further (your writing styles lead me to think you are probably the same person) and hope that everyone on here will ignore both of you and not interact with you in the future until you can have a 180 change of attitude.
Hi Sam,
My mother taught me to tell the truth to people. My bible states that Jesus is the truth, and that he is the way and the life.
Your “works” will not get you to heaven, my friend, who wants nothing to do with me. Lord, Lord, didn’t I do such and such in your name? Get away from me, I knew you not!
My writing styles? I quote bible, and you people reject it.
By the way, I am not Martus. But, you should note, that yes, we both say the same things, don’t we? That should tell you something! That should tell you that we speak the truth in love. We don’t sugar coat the truth, and neither did Jesus.
Sam,
Rude? Pot meet kettle!
Jeremy solicits comments on his posts. Who are you to tell people what they should say or how? And who are you to tell others to ignore certain commenters you deem unworthy to engage with? If Jeremy doesn’t want anyone disagreeing with him on his blog, then he should say so. I for one will stop commenting if he asks (or tells) me to. I think you owe Jeremy an apology for trying to stifle discussion here and turn his blog into an echo chamber for your bless-me club.
And your crack about Edward and I being the same person was just juvenile.
FedExMOP,
You know, I am actually quite surprised. I was dreading making these posts because I thought they were dry and drab and nobody was going to care. I was hoping to get through them as fast as I could. I had no idea the firestorm that would erupt.
And besides, the idea has been around for 30 years. It’s not like this is a new idea…
Anyway, thanks for reading still. I still subscribe to yours, and look forward to any new posts that you put out. I think of you often and what you all are doing there in Denver. I think that in several ways, you live out this “all are loved and welcome” mentality.
LOL! Your posts are not dry or drab. The ‘firestorm’ has been instructive – at least for me. 🙂
Hmmm… I was wondering if Martus and Edward were the same guy, too. I guess not. But I’ve been one of their kind in the past, locked into a perspective where the scriptures are treated as though they are written directly to 20th Century A.D. Americans instead of to the various social/historical/cultural settings they were actually intended for.
Even the concept of “going to heaven or hell” when you die they mention is wrested from its context and becomes a newer (false) tradition and is an ignorant, incorrect spin on the good news of the kingdom of God/Heaven/Christ. The good news is so much more than “heaven when you die”, as evidenced by Jesus’ own teachings.
It’s unfortunate that some British translators 400 years ago decided to translate three or four different words into the same English word “hell”, thus obfuscating the original meanings. It’s further unfortunate that phrases like “kingdom of heaven” are confused with the afterlife instead of understood in their 1st century Roman/Greek/Jewish context. And then to wrap all that up in some system like dispensationalism (a recent man-made thing) and you have people getting “left behind” from a “rapture” and all kinds of other nonsense.
The Torah (the “law”) literally means “the way” – it’s not “bad news” – even Paul himself said “the law is GOOD”; it was a collection of guidelines for living in shalom as people of God. It included correctives where shalom was disrupted so people could get back on the right track (the original meaning of the word “repent”).
By not grasping what these terms meant to the original audience, people like Martus and Edward are missing the point and heaping condemnation upon people honestly trying to love as Jesus loved…he saved his condemnation for the self-assured religious types who thought their views were the only correct ones… and that bears less resemblance to Jeremy, Sam, etc. that it does to M&E… unfortunately for them.
One of our kind?…hmmmmm…you mean, a bible believer?
Yes, a so-called Bible believer. A KJV-only type. But that label is self-applied and doesn’t really accurately depict what you really are.
Oh, so you have a problem with the KJV? No problem. What version would you like to use, because I don’t have a problem with other versions.
Challenge me, please. I have been at this for years.
You ignore my paragraphs and want to argue Bible versions? I have issues with most English translations – you ALWAYS lose something in the translation process. That’s not my point.
Your wanting a challenge and your willingness to condemn others for not lining up with your interpretations (based on questionable interpretations and application of scripture in any translation) lines your actions up with one known as “the accuser of the brethren”. Clue: it’s not Jesus.
So I have no interest in challenging you, only in helping others make sense of what you are. Thanks for your help. 🙂
Bob,
Your attempt to carry on Sam’s vilifying us to distract people from the reasonable challenges we made to Jeremy’s post is as transparent as it is self-congratulatory. Your game was exposed from the outset when, through the not-so-subtle ploy of “guessing” it wasn’t true, you reintroduced the baseless accusation that Edward and I were the same person and therefore our comments could be ignored out of hand, then continued in that assertion because, although perhaps not the same person, we are the same “type” of person. Classic. Ignore what he says; he’s one of those! All so you could introduce completely fallacious straw men arguments we never made (who mentioned Dispensationalism or the Rapture here?) and beat them down with your incredible and oh-so enlightened Sword of Biblical Understanding!
Everything you wrote concerning what I think or believe is completely wrong. Take 10 minutes from patting yourself on the back and take a look at my blog/websites, and/or my comments on other threads here, and you’ll be quickly disabused of the notion that I treat the Scriptures “as though they are written directly to 20th Century A.D. Americans” (For what it’s worth, I’m not American, so why would I do such a thing). You’ll see, if you’re being intellectually honest, that I am a great proponent of taking into account the relevant social, historical and cultural settings in which the amanuenses wrote. In fact, one of my major disagreements with Jeremy and others here is their insistence that the word “agape” is synonymous with the 20th Century English word “love” and should be read the same way (and I see that even you, who are so wise in the Critical Arts, make the same 20th Century American mistake).
And, for the record, you’re wrong about the Lord’s condemnation. He didn’t “[save] his condemnation for the self-assured religious types who thought their views were the only correct ones”. He condemned and cursed the self-appointed religious leaders who perpetuated the perverted Judaism of the day through their promotion of the Talmud and Rabbinic Halachal above the Mosaic Law given by God; those who added to the Scriptures (the Pharisees) and those who subtracted from the Scriptures (the Sadducees) and anyone else who changed the commandments of God because of their own human desires for acceptance and the honor of men. Which, interestingly enough, bears a greater resemblance to Jeremy and Sam than it does to Edward and me.
So, do you care to comment on the actual topic of this thread or would you rather just continue to tell us all how brainy, loving and enlightened you and everyone who agrees with you are and how blinkered, rigid and benighted Edward and I are?
Well said, Martus, and your comment is absolutely in line with this thread. All of your examples about the Pharisees and the Sadducees fit perfect for the mind set of those who oppose what you and I are speaking about. The Sadducees do not believe in an afterlife, let alone a resurrection, which is why Paul had to say that if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is preached in vain.
Notice that Christ is preached.
Being Christ-like is not the central message of the Bible at all. The central message is Eternal life vs. Eternal Death.
Bob,
Excellent comment. Understanding the Roman/Greek/Jewish contexts, and the “kingdom of Heaven” idea is so crucial to understanding Jesus and the entire New Testament. When we miss this, we miss the entire message.
I have been trying to read and study a lot on this during the past six or seven years. Do you have any good recommendations for books?
Although this is not directed to me, Jeremy, The Kingdom Principles
by Miles Munroe.
He is a citizen of the Bahama’s, when England ruled the Bahama’s, which means that a King ruled, and the Bahama’s was a colony of England.
He has much insight as to Kingdom in regards to Kingdom of God. A very good read.
Well, I thought so. But Jesus challenged people on the scriptures. He asked:
Luke 10:26 (NIVr)
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
He also asked, “Have you not read?”, numerous times.
See? Once again you twist scripture out of its context to proof-text a point Jesus was never trying to make. And you’re STILL side-stepping all my real points.
It’s pretty obvious to all that you merely want to argue. Trying to “win” a debate online is a very ineffective way to deal with whatever issues are really going on in your life, whether it’s crippling fear, a sense of inadequacy, guilt, shame, or whatever. The good news of Jesus brings shalom to all of these and more. I’ll pray for you that God brings real peace into your life so you can love constructively like Jesus did.
I read your post. You don’t believe in a rapture, etc., etc. What do you believe in regards to what happens when you die. You never mentioned that. And, it appears to me, that you really don’t care what happens when you die, just so you are “Christ-like”.
I don’t understand non-believers rendition of what “Christ-like” means.
There are many non-Christian religious people that adore being “Christ-like”, in such cases of helping the poor, etc. But what is their final destination in the end?
Eternal life exists. If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is preached in vain.
Paul said that.
Wait, is Bob an unbeliever? Lol! Really? Is that true, Bob?
The Saducees are a great example of those who only wish to be Christ-like. They were followers of Christ only in regards to this life, because they did not believe in an afterlife, let alone a resurrection:
Reference:
1 Corinthians 15:12-33…too long to post.
It saddens me when brothers in Christ argue, God Himself was not like this, in Isaiah 43 v 26 He said”let us review the situation together” He had no need to, but he wanted to be able to bless His people. God then continues to remind them in the following chapters how foolish they are. In chapter 48 v 4 He says”for I know how stubborn and obstinate you are. Your necks are as unbending as iron. Your heads are as hard as bronze” in Proverbs 8 v 5 God speaks again. “you simple people, use good judgement. You foolish people, show some understanding, listen to me”. and again in Proverbs 26 v 4 “don’t answer the foolish arguments of fools or you will become as foolish as them”. In 2 Timothy 2 v 16 we are advised to avoid worthless foolish talk. James says in ch 1 v 19 “my dear brothers and sisters: be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry”.
So, lets not try to impress others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than ourselves, as Paul wrote to the Philippian Church in ch 2 v 3, Christ himself did not seek equality with God, in fact He took the humble position. In Paul’s first letter to the believers in Corinth he encourages those with “superior knowledge” to be gentle and not discourage the weak, causing them to fall.
I would like you all to apologise to each other. We are all travelers on the same road at different places, we will all have different opinions, thats OK, God loves seekers. Please don’t fight, lets discuss and if we can not agree, lets agree to differ until such time that God reveals more of Himself to us when we are ready. Sharing ideas is good, change is good. As long as we are honoring God in all things that is good, we don’t have to agree on everything. None of us has any knowledge or authority to say who is going to heaven or hell or who has eternal life.
Lets walk and talk together as Jesus did on the road to Emmaus, as they listened to him opening the scriptures to them. As we walk together as brothers and sisters in Christ, Jesus may just join us in our deliberations, then we can all say Amen together.
Your brother in Christ Clive.
I appreciate what you said, and there is no doubt that this is directed to me, as I am the opposing side. The road to Emmaus was with Jesus himself, and I am sure that when we pray to Jesus, we are not argumentative.
However, we are to contend for the faith. The Apostle Paul debated and argued.
Acts 9:29 (NIVr)
He talked and debated with the Hellenistic Jews,but they tried to kill him.
People didn’t like Paul very much. They thought he was a liar. He spoke boldly, the truth, regardless of the consequences that lay before him. They wanted him dead, because of the message that he was proclaiming.
That same persecution comes upon people like me, who quote what Paul said. They don’t really believe what he said, saying such things as, “Well, that’s a difficult passage to understand, I don’t think he really meant that.”, when it is pretty straight forward in reality.
Contend for the faith. Be instant in season and out of season. Rebuke, Reprove.
Just being nice for the sake of not causing division doesn’t work. If it did, then Paul’s message would have never survived. Because there really is a division. Not everyone here is a brother in Christ, or a sister in Christ.
There is a saying that goes around among the political lines…”IF I offended anyone, I apologize to them.” I don’t recall Paul apologizing to anyone.
Ed Chapman
No, Clive, you are completely wrong. Your milquetoast calls for bonhomie are directly contrary to the commands of Christ. Why would any believer in Christ apologize for standing up for the truth? We are to call out false teachers and rebuke our stumbling brethren. You obviously forgot that Paul rebuked Peter–yeah, the Apostle Peter–for behaving hypocritically. And then there was his argument with the other believers who were “of the Pharisees” that ended up in the council of Jerusalem.
We are explicitly NOT to agree to disagree with false doctrine. What’s wrong with you that you could even think that such a thing is Christ-like? Where did He ever dissemble for the sake of getting along?
There is only one Truth; relativism is for the godless.
Clive,
It saddens me as well. It is not the tone or spirit that I wish to foster here on this blog.
I, for one, am sorry for the argumentative tone of some of my earlier comments. Please forgive me.
I would hate to have to block the comments from divisive people as I believe everyone has a right to be heard, but I am beginning to think that there may not be an alternative…
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Jeremy,
When I was in the prison guard business, we had to take classes on interpersonal communication. One of the things we learned was that there are two modes of communication that can be used in one of four ways.
Child – Child
Child – Adult
Adult – Child
Adult – Adult
Ahother Way of looking at this is this’
I’m not OK – You’re not OK
I’m not OK – You’re OK
I’m OK – Your not OK
I’m OK – You’re OK
Sadly, the only truly effective way of communicating between adults is the last. As long as we approach others as if we or they are not OK in spite of our disagreements, we cannot effectively communicate our ideas and intentions to them.
Sometimes, it becomes necessary to limit the conversation to those who are capable of communicating in the Adult-Adult paradigm in order for those who are less assertive and more likely to communicate from a position of weakness to be able to express themselves in a safe non-confrontational environment.
See, sometimes the psyco-babble we learn on the job is useful.
Your Brother
FedEx,
President,
Men of Praise Motorcycle Ministry
That is an interesting way of looking at conversations. There definitely has to be some level of respect for the views and ideas of others, and a healthy dose of personal humility, in order for there to be meaningful discussion of debated topics and areas of disagreement.
Clive,
Thank you for your well spoken and well reasoned plea. It would do well for all of us to remember that we cannot have perfect understanding of any of these things and take a more pleasant tone toward one another when we disagree.
FedEx,
President,
Men of Praise Motorcycle Ministry
Hebrews 5:12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
“ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel” (mt 23:24), “or in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love,” (gal 5:6). “judge not, that ye be not judged” (mt 7:1). “or how wilt thou say to thy brother, let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye” (mt. 7:4)? “thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble” (jas 2:19). “woe unto you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves” (mt 23:25). “out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. my brethren, these things ought not so to be” (jas 3:10). “ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in” (mt 23:13).
“every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God” (1jn 4:7). “go, and do thou likewise” lk 10:37
Dueling Scriptures… I LOVE IT!!!!!!
word.
🙂