I am a “straight” heterosexual male.
I don’t really have an opinion on whether homosexuality is genetic or a choice.
One thing I am quite sure of, however, is that since I am straight, I could never “choose” to be gay. Therefore Amy’s answer to this Christian mother about her gay son is quite good:
I don’t know what your opinions are about LGBT people. But let me encourage you to follow Amy’s advice. If you cannot change who you are attracted to, don’t ask LGBT people to do it either.
Of course, I think there may be a difference between having certain desires and acting up on them, but that is a different subject altogether…
I wish the words “gay” and “Straight” weren’t invented. I know God never created a “gay” or a “straight” as innate beings. He created human beings, male and female. Here is the crux of the matter. God has called all to repentance. In Christ we take on a whole new identity. We no longer identify according to the flesh and its desires, as that was crucified with Christ when we chose Him. That which called itself “gay” or “straight” is considered dead. That which is alive in Christ presents the body as a living sacrifice according to His will. The Bible says do not be conformed to the patterns of this world but to be transformed by the renewing of the mind. every time the Bible discusses the inner workings of salvation, in a few ways it discusses a change of identity. So then is it wrong for me to ask someone to be “heterosexual”? Yes and no. All things in Christ. Is Christ “gay?” no. Is he “straight?” no. Is He righteous? Yes. We present our bodies for righteousness, not sexual immorality.
Excellent points. Paul might write, “In Christ there is neither gay nor straight…”
No he wouldn’t.
Im sorry, Jeremy, but I do not agree with this stance. Here is why:
I am a pornography addict. I am not one because Jesus made me one. There were choices in my life that I chose to make, and there were circumstances that helped my sin nature to divulge into partcipating in the sin. Though the APA (American Psychological Association) will not do any case studies with people that would reinforce this claim, a large number of individuals who no longer practice or participate in homosexual activity usually come from a family environment that does not reinforce two primary keys in a young person’s life: 1. Identity in Jesus (aka- who Jesus detained, created them, and purposed for them to be), and 2. Identity as a whole (aka- who they are as purposeful individuals themselves in relation to their identity in Jesus). In addition, there are many men and women who no longer practice homosexuality that, upon hearing their life story, grew up in a very abusive household (either physically, emotionally, spiritually, and mentally; many were subject to many different combinations). But all of the recovering homosexuals that I have spoken with have made a decision to live and love as Jesus designed them to (their words, not mine). I do not hate homosexuals. I do not condemn them to a life of sin and hell. But I do not lie to them If they ask what I believe about their choice, just as I would not lie about the choices I made.
My case is this: sin is sin. It divides us against knowing and entering into the fullness of a relationship with Jesus. My pornography addiction did this for me. I have to daily fight against the sin that would easily ensnare me and steal my life (as it has stolen my marriage). However, Jesus offers all sinners the opportunity to change and be made whole. It is not easy, nor without cost, but didn’t He ask of us to lay down our lives as a living sacrifice.?
Brendon,
I basically agree with you. I think we are talking about the difference between choosing “to be” homosexual, and choosing “to act” upon the homosexual desires.
Take porn. Can you “choose” to no longer be attracted to porn? No. I bet you wish you could, though! I am also in the same boat. If you could choose to no longer want to look at porn, you would choose to do so. But the fact that you still struggle with it shows that you cannot choose to not want to look at porn.
You can, however, do your best to choose to not look at it. You can choose to not act upon your desire.
That is all I am trying to say in this post. There is a difference between choosing to be homosexual (or heterosexual) and choosing to act upon these sexual desires. Sometimes Christians tell homosexual to just choose to be heterosexual, which is is just as impossible as you “choosing” to no longer want to look at porn.
The gay man is called to live according to the gospel which requires Him to deny his sexual impulses towards the same sex.
They were never asked to become straight but to deny themselves and follow Him. Heterosexuals are also called to abstain from all sexual immorality(deviant from His will concerning us)
Shawn,
I think Christians DO often ask homosexual people to become straight. They often say that homosexuality is a choice, and so people should choose differently. This isn’t always what is said, but I do hear it from time to time.
Until we stop looking at sex and start looking at lust .Sex was designed for reproduction where as lust is a choice, men choose to wear lady’s clothes, men choose to look at porn. Girls choose to take their clothes off just a few choices people make based on lust or self . My point is that when a homosexual couple wants an offspring they will try only one way that is copulation the way God planed if not from their own loins then from a third party ,Adoption, IVF, this is how they choose. So they choose a way of life and then force all around them to except their way. And this is not a choice. We choose to live or die. Life or death is what Jesus said that is the only choice so please stop the lie of choice. The homosexuals or heterosexuals can choose to live a life based on lust or self they can also live their lives basted on God and his ways that is CHOICE. ONE WAY. THE ONLY WAY. Choose life and stop the lies. Blessings
James,
I am not really quite sure what you are saying. Most of the homosexual people I know are not choosing lust, but choosing love. At least, that is the way it seems to me. I don’t think we have the right to say that someone is choosing lust simply because we disagree with the choice they make. Are some choosing lust? Sure. The same way some heterosexuals choose lust. So maybe it is not about bashing “homosexuality” but about calling all people (whether straight or gay) away from lust. Is that what you are saying?
“In Christ there is neither gay nor straight”? Jeremy Paul would never write that. You must pit Paul against Paul to come up with such a conclusion. There is no question here. You are playing with meaning rather than allowing meaning to have it’s own. In the end Jeremy you are lying to yourself when you embrace cultural trends over and against the plan meaning of someone’s words (in this case Paul’s).
Brett,
What I meant is that as a way of identifying ourselves as a people group, Paul wanted us to consider ourselves “in Christ.” The other labels for people groups, such as slave vs. free, man vs. woman, etc., only serve to divide. I think that the “gay vs. straight” designations are similar… the terms are dividing the Body of Christ, and so Paul might say today, “there is neither gay nor straight, but we are all one in Jesus Christ.” I was not trying to say anything one way or the other on the relative morality of the gay vs. straight lifestyle.
What does it mean to be gay?
What does it mean to be straight?
There is a set of exercises that run for 60 minutes each, that, if completed as described, have a 99% chance of the participants having sexual intercourse, regardless of their attraction to each other, alleged sexual orientation, kinks, or any other points of attraction/repulsion, prior to starting the exercises.
Hm. I have never heard of this, and find it nearly impossible. I would almost like to try this set of exercises just to see….
Rabbinical Judaism has drawn big fences that implicitly prohibit these exercises with anybody other than one’s spouse.
There are major legal, moral, and ethical obstacles in doing the research that would validate/refute the hypothesis.
“And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female. And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:27-28)
How can anyone say they believe in God who created male and female above; and that God said that they should be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth – and claim that the same God has created them with a sexual orientation that makes it impossible for them to reproduce – ensuring no fruitfulness and multiplication which God commanded at point of creation? Enough said. Don’t ascribe to God what He did not do. Self deception is not good for those who say they are followers and believers in Christ and the God of creation. God is never confused – neither does He contradict Himself.
Sexual sins like other sins are not new at all – they have always been there even to the extent that the city of Sodom was the origin of the phrase sodomy. Every sin (including homosexual, heterosexual and such like) is a product of personal choices. No person born again of the Spirit of God goes around fulfilling every desire or thought that comes into their mind and hearts – the Word of God and the Spirit of God have been given to enable us put the flesh to death – Paul would never write to approve homosexual sins.
“But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors–not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” (Romans 8:11-14)
See what Paul could have easily posted on Facebook to the Roman Church Facebook group page; if Paul were around today:
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man–and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. (Romans 1:18-32)
Jeremy how can you in all honesty; and after reading the letters of Paul, claim “Paul might write, “In Christ there is neither gay nor straight…” Where can anyone get these thoughts after reading these scriptures:
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.”(1 Corinthians 6:9-12)
“Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”(Galatians 5:19-21)
You have misunderstood what I am saying. I only meant that as a “self-designation” both gay and straight people need to stop labeling each other and classifying themselves by their sexual orientation, and maybe seek to classify themselves the way Paul instructed people to do, as being of the class that is “in Christ.”
Once heterosexual and homosexual people can stop dividing along the lines of “gay vs. straight” and see each other as members of Christ’s body who are “one in Christ,” only then can we begin to come along side each other in love to help each other follow Jesus more faithfully.
These attempts to glorify and pacify those who are flaunting rebellion against God using sexual sin is not new at all and God Himself promised the deception and delusion that is now rampant -just like in the days of Sodom and Lot:
‘They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to ⌊stay with⌋ you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.” Then Lot went outside and shut the door behind him. “Please, my friends, don’t be so wicked,” he said. “Look, I have two daughters who have never had sex. Why don’t you let me bring them out to you? Do whatever you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, since I’m responsible for them.” But the men yelled, “Get out of the way! This man came here to stay awhile. Now he wants to be our judge! We’re going to treat you worse than those men.” They pushed hard against Lot and lunged forward to break down the door.’ Genesis 19:5-9
The ‘playbook’ of these last days have been written long ago:
“For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:4-7)
Charles,
I think there are a lot more serious forms of flaunting rebellion that goes on in the church today than whatever sexual sin the LGBT people are involved in.
As long as you are quoting scripture at me, I can quote Scripture right back… “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”
The world that the Apostle Paul lived in was accepting of homosexuality. It was well known in Greek and Roman civilizations. That is why in 1 Corinthians 6:9, both passive homosexual partners and dominate homosexual partners are listed (check out the notes on this verse at bible.org or in a Ryrie Study Bible). The passage lists these sins along with fornication, adultery, idolatry, drunkenness, stealing, and being verbally abusive. All of these things you are expected to stop doing if you want to follow Christ. You may be attracted to the same sex and another person is tempted to steal. It is all sin. But the power of God is able to help us overcome our sins.
Unfortunately, Christians have not been very loving towards people who struggle with the sin of homosexuality. We need to love them, because to not love them is a SIN, just like their sin of ungodly sexual practices. May God forgive us all… And may we all seek the power of God in our lives to help us overcome our sins.
Brilliantly put!
Right! I believe that God DOES call people to choose to not act upon homosexual desires, just as God calls me to choose to not act upon certain heterosexual desires. But I hope that just as God extends grace toward me when I fail to choose rightly, we also can extend grace toward others.
Gays are not enforced to be gays but its their choice lord father has created us as a male and female and both are complete by each other but the matter of concern is that being homo is not what lord but he knew such things would take place. So he gave us the redemmer and our saviour Christ .comparably being a gay leads us into the judgemental will of the lord and not in perfect will and about the sexual urges enforced on one being is no greater before the power and might of our living god.And if one feels bad of being a gay then that’s it he has got the answer that he is not and if one really is not ashamed of then he is perfect in all aspects although it steps it into a judgemental will he can go by persistency in his spiritual life and find favour in the sight of the lord oh god one who is filled with compassion
Sorry, Jeremy, but I think you’ve sold out. “If you cannot change who you are attracted to, don’t ask LGBT people to do it either.” Really? This is exactly the mentality that humanism and hedonism would have you ascribe to. It is not the mentality of one who understands the reality of sin. I have family members and friends who are homosexual. I also have friends who used to be homosexual but who have received healing and understand that they were created for SO MUCH MORE! (So, the truth is that one CAN change who they are attracted to) This is the problem when we accept the world’s understanding of love…that love = acceptance. Love calls us to a higher place, it does not leave us in the gutter where we were found. Please stop being deluded and realize that you can be loving towards anyone without having to compromise the truth of the glory of God.
Couldn’t agree more. I would say however acceptance is one thing- approval is another. When the lobby for homosexuals responds they do so with the idea that acceptance means approval and unfortunately Christians are becoming more prone to the same.
Beth,
Do not read into my post what is not there. I have nowhere said that LGBT people cannot change. I think they can.
I just don’t think that heterosexual people have the right to ask LGBT people to change, as if it was so simple. It isn’t simple.
And wherever and whenever LGBT people do change, it is not ever because they chose to do so, but because it was an act of God in their lives. Therefore, if you want LGBT people to change, let God do it. And while we wait for God to act, let’s just love others the way they are just as God loves us in our weaknesses and failures.
What I see as sad are two competing but similar responses in our post modern culture- the absence of feeling and the bathing in feeling. Homosexuality is a sin- it has particular emphasis in scripture. Many homosexuals have been made fun of over and above what any other sin dictates. Just as ridiculous is the post modern response of “they cant change”- which if true would mean that any addiction or sin would be unchangeable despite the facts humans change all the time and I am NOT speaking of through Christ. Yes Jesus is needed for salvation and sanctification and glorification. BUT even men and women who are not believers have changed behavior- impulses and the like. I HAVE SEEN IT IN 12 STEP GROUPS for over 25 years. Our culture invokes this mamby pamby view of self that Christians are buying into. NO WE DONT want to make fun of or scorn BUT NEITHER do we want to fall into the modern trap of victimhood and placation.
I have never said they cannot change. People do change. All I am saying is that just as we often find it difficult to change patterns of behavior in our own life, Christians should not expect that changing one’s sexual orientation is as simple as making a choice.
I think it is important to distinguish between the attraction and acting on that attraction. When Exodus International closed down last year, they said it was because after 30+ years of ministry, the truth was that 99.9% of their clients did not experience elimination of their same sex attractions. Exodus didn’t want to perpetuate the expectation that they could “cure” homosexual attraction. People could change how they acted, but not how they felt.
Many former homosexuals are able to marry a supportive spouse of the opposite sex, but their attractions to the same sex can still be present (just not necessarily acted upon). They are still experiencing temptation in this area after many years of counseling. therapy, and prayer.
I think that is what Jeremy’s article is pointing out…it is unrealistic to think these attractions will just go away at the flip of a switch. Whatever the cause, it is complex and right now there are no solutions. Of course, God can change people…but several Christians I know who experience same-sex attraction have followed the Lord for many years (in some cases, their whole life) without losing these attractions. The group I know are single and living celibate lives and in a support group for discipleship and mutual encouragement which they do not find in the church, partly because of the church’s mistaken expectation that they could “change if they really wanted to”.
Thank you for bringing this up. You have pointed out a critical distinction, and the the findings of Exodus International are revealing.
This post appeared on the same day a friend came out. Many of the comments here mirror things I heard him say in times past. Juxtaposed against that is who he really is.
“Thou doth protest too much” the person who gave me the news and I agreed about our mutual friend. “Somehow he was trying to convince all of us he isn’t gay by the things he said about how people could choose to be gay or not gay. He was really trying to convince himself, wasn’t he?”
Our mutual friend decided that he couldn’t choose to be straight, no matter how hard he tried. It didn’t work. The “sexual fluidity” theory didn’t work for him. He decided his orientation is frozen, not fluid.
I have hundreds of gay friends. I know many who have tried “the cure”. “Did it work?” I asked. “No. For years I tried to convince myself I was straight, but in the end I knew I wasn’t.” “Did it work for any of the people who went through those programs with you?” “No, most of the people in the groups have kept in touch, and it didn’t work for anyone.”
Some people have convinced their families, employers, churches and others that they are no longer gay. They find it easier to live pretending to be straight. But they tell some of us a different story. They say they have not and can not change. I know no LGBTQ person who says that they or any LGBTQ person they know has been able to change.
Incidentally, “being” gay or “being” straight is not the same thing as behavior. To assume that a LGBTQ person is living in a certain way, including engaging in certain sexual activities based on the fact that they are LGBTQ reveals a significant knowledge gap on the part of those who make such assumptions.
Rather than pontificating on how alcoholics should quite drinking, and gays should choose to be straight, we might rather seek to understand these people and learn to love them with the love of Christ. We’d better hope he died for them, for if he did not, why should we hope that he died for us?
You’re right man. . . wish the church would realize how much so much of what they do crushes people who want to follow Jesus. So wish the church would focus more on showing Jesus and how great he is and how being like him is better. Following Jesus today not because of the church but because he came alive and could see him thru his word, and there was some followers of his who showed that that’s OK. Church needs to understand that LGBTQs that Jesus calls don’t need more judgment as we’re living out following Jesus. It’s OK to trust that God is able to work out any changes needed in others’ lives. . . church isn’t able to do that anyway.
You’re right Alan. Let’s keep our eyes on Jesus and follow him, and love our neighbors like he told us to do. That’s our task. It’s not our job to figure out if people think correctly, have the correct theology and live by the same moral code we do. That’s between them and Jesus. I found out a very long time ago that some of the people who appear to be doing everything perfectly are really not at all who they pretend to be.
Hey man, think you said it before. . . perfect in this world doesn’t look perfect, it looks messy, it goes under and loves the broken and hurt whose hearts in their brokenness are close to God. Theology has a place but shouldn’t take the place of the heart. Think it’s Paul wrote that you can know everything but if you’re not loving, you’re nothing. Huge disconnect if knowing the words of Jesus, you don’t become like him in this world.
Yes, yes, yes! That last paragraph is exactly what I was trying to say in this post. Thank you, Sam.
And thank you as well for loving those that many in the church have condemned and scapegoated for our own failures.
There is no lust in christ but just an infinite source of the love of the spirit that’s pure and delightful.Marriage itself is a concession to the weakness of our present being.God designed woman as the companion of man with complimentary attributes.I could justify all kinds of sin through the fact that I’m bonded to them.we were slaves of sin as Paul tells us.I couldn’t come out of sin with all my efforts Jeremy.We have a sinful nature.But,Sin never provides life because the spirit of god is love and life to us.When I cried out to God to save me from this nature,God did by his grace.Now,I detest sin having tasted love of christ.
In the very same way Jeremy,homosexuality is a compulsion,yes.But,it leads to DEATH.Christ’s grace could save people from this nature.We can’t please God with our sinful flesh.The wages of sin are death.Homosexual addicts need Jesus to flee from the clutches of this sin and glory in the life that only our father is the source of.Support homosexuals Jeremy,We are none to condemn them,but DO NOT ENDORSE SATAN’S LIE that it is a way of life and not a destructive thing.The bible out rightly condemns homosexuality as well as heterosexual lustful desires.
Commenting on your last sentence…
My pastor told a story of talking to a homosexual man. The man said, “So, why did God give me the sin of lusting after other men?” The pastor replied, “I don’t know–why did God give me the sin of lusting after other women?”
Your point, as others pointed out, is correct — sin is sin. As a former alcoholic, I once resigned myself to my sin. I setup a life in which I could manage my alcoholism and surrounded myself with a “community” of other alcoholics as a support group. I easily could have justified my “lifestyle” choice, but God had other plans for me and healed me. That was 22 years ago and I’ve never looked back or had any regrets.
Lust and attraction are two different things.
Does every attraction we have lead to lust? Not in my experience. There are people I find attractive but I do not fantasize about them or undress them in my mind. I don’t think that just because I find someone is attractive, that I am sinning. God has made each one of us beautiful in our own way and to celebrate that beauty in another person does not have to degenerate into lustful thoughts about that person. I’m sorry your pastor is struggling with that sin. It is the sin of objectifying another human being made in God’s image.
That’s an interesting point L, that attraction and lust are two different things. We often think that our mothers are attractive (beautiful) but we don’t have lustful feelings for them. Likewise, I could go so far as to say that I find some men in my life attractive in their lifestyles, morals, Christian walks, etc. So could it be that homosexuals and heterosexuals aren’t seeing eye-to-eye? Did my pastor erroneously assume that the homosexual in front of him was speaking of lust when he really meant non-sexual attraction? Are homosexuals speaking ‘philo’ and we’re hearing ‘eros’?
I believe that all humans are equally beautiful and distinguishing people on the basis of their superificial features leads me to favor them more or seek their company and makes me unjust.Christ doesn’t get attracted to a beautiful face but to the crying heart and the true call of the spirit.We are christians called to imbibe the spirit of our father through his grace.
I know several homosexual people, and frankly, there are numerous ways of living which are WAY more destructive, in my opinion.
And most Christians I know are caught up in the deception of these destructive forms of living. Pride, anger, greed, judgmentalism, and gluttony, for example, are condemned all over the place in Scripture (way more than homosexuality), and yet most Christians are content to live in such destructive lifestyles while they point the finger at homosexuals and call down God’s curses upon them. This is truly Satan’s lie.
When I was younger, several things were considered the “big sins”, such as divorce (and remarriage), sex outside marriage (and getting pregnant and not being married) and living with someone of the opposite sex to whom one is not married. As the years passed, so many in the church and/or their families had been involved in those “sins” that I’ve heard them mentioned only twice (in private discussions with two pastors regarding church attendees – I was part of the leadership team) in the past twenty three years.
Pride, anger, greed, judgmentalism and gluttony fell off the list even further in the past.
Today, homosexuality tops the list for many conservative churches. As the laws of the land and public opinion change (which according to all I read is happening at a record pace for such a massive social change) on this issue (as more people come out of the closet and people realize how many of their friends, relatives, neighbors and coworkers are LGBTQ), undoubtedly this too will slide down or off of the list.
I wonder what will take it’s place. Abortion? Assisted suicides? Gene manipulation? Golly, gee. We need something really big so we can focus on “those people’s sin” instead of our own. Instead of investing our time, energy and money in fighting what we perceive as evil, might we instead look to Jesus’ example and his command to love the people of our world (no qualifiers included)?
Heterosexuality leads to death, too.
This issue is more complex than most people seem to realize. It’s not a matter either of choice or of conditioning. In individual cases it may be just one or the other, but overall, it’s both.
We are not born heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual LGBT or XYZ. We are simply born as sexual beings. The innate drive to reproduce is a part of our physical nature. I’m sure we’ve all seen puppies that obviously have no “gender identity” or “sexual preference.” They’ll go after anything that moves, even your leg; or sometimes even anything that doesn’t move. It’s simply an itch that needs to be scratched. Experimentation eventually shows them the natural and most satisfying way to scratch that itch.
However, in addition to a physical nature, humans also have a spiritual nature. The problems arise in the conflict between the two.
Moral and social standards derive from our spiritual nature. They have been historically the domain of religion. However, religions tend to degenerate from the experiential spirituality of their founders into ritualistic and legalistic structures, unable to adequately address the core of contemporary issues. Thus the best that religion has to offer is often a blanket condemnation of homosexuality as a sin, without getting at the roots of the problem. Moral relativism, on the other hand, as Mark R. correctly states, goes beyond acceptance to approval, and even, it seems sometimes, to encouragement.
Thus, even those people whom social pressures and individual circumstances have not steered into homosexuality are now tempted by appeals to their animal natures, which are not differentiated from their spiritual natures in our contemporary society.
About gender identity: Look between your legs. Got an innie? You’re female. Got an outie? You’re male. That’s all there is to it. Genes have nothing to do with it, though society identifies certain genetic characteristics with a specific gender, causing all sorts of identity problems.
Same-sex attraction? Sure! Ideally, we should all be attracted to people of both sexes. We should love them equally. Homosexuals have trouble loving people of the opposite sex. But many heterosexuals have trouble loving people of the same sex. We’re not talking about bisexuality here. Love is different from sex. Love is spiritual, while sex is physical. Unfortunately, we’ve let our society degenerate to the point at which it is preoccupied with sex, and doesn’t recognize spirit at all.
Good insights, Lutek. I know next to nothing about how our sexual attractions develop. The only thing I really know is what you say at the end there, that no matter what we have between our legs and no matter how our sexual attractions have developed, we are called to love one another as God has loved us.
Thank you Jeremy. Jay’s comment below made me think that I probably hadn’t expressed myself clearly enough as supporting your point. I’ didn’t affirm outright that we are called to love one another as God loves us – the main point of your blog post – but I should have. Thank you for the edit.
Did any of you guys who commented here actually read Jeremys Post?
I mean, c’mon, he wrote about reaching out to homosexuals, to embrace them as Jesus would have embraced them. And you have nothing else to do, but to answer this with a theological dispute?
What??? Are you sure???
I mean, don’t you get it? That’s exactly what the Pharisees did, when Jesus asked them to be gentle, forgiving and including to people they would count as sinners.
Why is it, that the evangelical world just goes nuts, if someone is trying to not condemn homosexuals? Did one of you freaked out when some of your friends said they will make an expensive holiday or buy a new TV? I mean didn’t Jesus talked way more about our addiction to money then about sexuality?
Your thinking is confused. Jesus loved people while telling them to stop sinning!! The lame man he healed (John 5), the woman at the well (the man you now have is not your husband).
The problem with the Pharisees was that they denied their guilt 18:9 Jesus also told this parable to some who were confident that they were righteous and looked down on everyone else (Luke 18:9).
Christ followers need to acknowledge their own sin, while encouraging homosexuals to live a righteous life. Not in a condemning way, but in a fellow sinner to fellow sinner way. Which is not the same as condoning their actions.
No Jeff, your thinking is confused. You lost the focus of what is really important: Love, grace and mercy. That is what life is about. And that was the focus on Jeremy’s Post. His goal was not to debate, if homosexuality is a sin or not. His goal was to teach you and me some perspective on how “loving the sinner” could actually get some flesh. How it could get real.
Jesus focus was always on the people and never on the or their sin. Except when he talked to religious folks like you and me, then he tried to show them, that they are (read we are) no lesser sinners than the people they sorted out with a sinner-sign around their neck.
I would argue, that Jesus would do today the same. And homosexuals are the people with the “sinner-sign” that have no space in the church. They are the lepers of the church.
And most of the comments in this thread where about to make sure, that this “damn Homos don’t dare to take the sinner-sign off”. And not about what Jeremy was talking about, how to let them in and embrace them.
I’m with Jeremy on this one. I think he gets Jesus here.
Jay, I noticed that you did not cite any passages of the Bible, nor did you interact with the passages that I cited. Which raises the question, “what authority do you use to decide questions like this?”
For me, I am a slave of the King, and I live in his Kingdom. The King is Jesus, and it is not for the slave to tell the King what to do. I don’t get the same attitude from you. You talk about love, grace and mercy. It is not loving to not at least tell homosexuality is a sin, and they will have to face God about this sin in their life (just like I will have to face him over my sins).
And unless you admit you are sinning, then there is no need for grace and mercy. Mercy to not receive the punishment you deserve, and grace to receive all the spiritual blessing that are found only in Jesus Christ.
But to get those blessings, you have to make Jesus your King by joining yourself to him by joining the New Covenant.
Now, the whole point of the original post was can you choose to be something else, i.e. can you choose to be a heterosexual, rather than a homosexual? And the answer, from a Christian perspective, is YES. You may still struggle with that sin, but Jesus can give you the power to be celibate, or to get married to a fellow Christian of the opposite sex. Jesus can give you the power to do that.
Jeff,
When is the last time someone pointed out a personal sin to you? Did you feel loved?
What about if someone came up to you and pointed out a sin of the heart such as greed, pride, lust, envy, covetousness, materialism, etc.? Would you feel loved?
Would you even be in the position for such a thing to happen? Are you transparent with others about those sins of the heart that you may struggle with?
In reality, how much pointing out of sin is being done in our churches other than the sin of homosexuality? Are there no other sins to point out to people? Are the sins all hidden so that we can’t point them out? Does our “love” only extend to those who sin by homosexuality? What about the sin of divorce and remarriage? Are we lovingly pointing that out – that Jesus says remarriage is adultery?
It just seems to me that all this “loving” pointing out of sin is only directed at ONE sin. Have you personally pointed out someone’s sin of gluttony?
I am all for lovingly pointing out one another’s sins if we do it consistently and are willing to put ourselves in the vulnerable position of letting others point out our own sins.
Jeff,
Jesus does want people to stop sinning, but He didn’t go about it the same way we Christians do. Anyway, here is a post to consider: https://redeeminggod.com/go-and-sin-no-more/
Thank, Jay! I was having the same questions, but didn’t want to say it. This post had one point and one point only: Love others.
I agree with you Jeremy. I think its wrong to judge people based on how others feel.
I have come to the conclusion we are sexual, i.e. not homo or hetero, just sexual. The idea of homosexual (Gay-Bi or whatever) is a relatively new concept. In Paul’s day, the Greek language had no word for Gay, just for the activities. That is the condemnation, not what you feel, the lust or the action upon it. If 1 Corinthians 6:9 is not clear, that sexual sins are condemned, throw out it all. Anything out of God’s design (a man/wife male/female) is an aberration and to be repented of.
I like this distinction. I do not know much of the history of the terms, but you could definitely be on to something.
Lots of great discussion here. I have been away from the internet all week, so only just now saw the comments. I should probably write a clarification post about what I was and was not trying to say with this post.
Essentially, it comes down to this: telling a gay person simply to choose to be straight is not a good approach.
Jeremy – the fundamental issue is that homosexual act is proclaimed as a sin by God. It is a sin (as the Word of God teaches both in the Old and New Testaments -Leviticus 18:22-28, Leviticus 20:13, Deuteronomy 23:17, Judges 19:22, Romans 1:18-32, Jude 1:7, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10 Revelation 21:8); and we are to ask people to repent from homosexual sin just like we do with any other sin, including fornication, adultery and any other sexual sins.
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)
“But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. ” (1 Timothy 1:8-11)
Jesus came preaching repent for the kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17) – to repent is to change and make a different choice. Jesus also said to the adulterous woman (John 8:11) and the man at the temple (John 5:14) to go and sin no more lest a worse thing may befall him. If your position is that we can not tell anyone to choose a different lifestyle – then we are not to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to anyone. And if we choose to be silent – we disobey Jesus Christ. We can show people the way and the choice that leads to eternal life, without condemning them. We can love people without compromising the truth or condoning sin.
A life lived in Christ and to follow Jesus Christ is to make choices daily:
“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” (Matthew 16:24)
“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;”(Deuteronomy 30:19)
It is about choosing light or darkness, good or evil…..Jesus said “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”(John 3:19)
Charles,
I think maybe you did not read the post. I am saying nothing one way or the other about whether homosexuality is a sin.
Regardless, if you want to quote Scriptures about sin, anyone can do that, and there are thousands of verses that could be quoted about the numerous sins that Christians engage in every day, so let us stop pointing the finger at homosexuals and condemning them for a sin which is mentioned only a few times in the Bible when we ourselves are guilty of much greater sins.
Jeremy, I would tend to go your way, and say, that there are so MANY sins people overlook. To me there is a homosexual agenda (political) and a homosexual culture (personal). The agenda is pushing a…well… agenda. Those who struggle with homosexual feelings and desires are dealing with difficult problems. I have the approach (toward the gay) of asking about their soul. God wants us to be more concerned with that than desires of the flesh.
I think (hope) that we as believers all choose to bring our sexuality under the control of the Spirit in a lot of ways regularly. If someone’s not a Christian, there’s another issue that is far more important–faith in Christ, but for Christians, my hope is that we would all find some freedom from the sin that indwells us.
Yes, I think that one of the freedoms we gain as Spirit-filled believers is the ability to choose different ways of living. I was only saying that a person does not choose their sexual orientation. At least, I don’t think we do… But despite our sexual desires, we can learn to choose to act upon them or not.
The practitioners and defenders of homosexual sin are the people who make it an agenda and try to intimidate anyone who calls it what God calls it – sin
The practitioners and defenders of sins like pride, arrogance, greed, lying, theft, gluttony, and judgmentalism are the people who make these things an agenda and try to intimidate anyone who calls it what God calls it – sin
Jeremy, have you read Dr. Brown’s book, “A Queer Thing Happened in America” or seen his DVD’s on “Homosexuality, Church, and Society”?
While we certainly aren’t called to convert people to heterosexuality the problem and solution is the same for any of us addicted to our sin of preference whatever that might be. The Bible certainly has a whole list of them and I am sure the human race has invented a few new ones since it was written. The problem: We are born in sin. We all are born in a fallen state. We cannot save ourselves. We cannot be good enough in and of ourselves. The Solution: Admit to all the above. Accept the salvation that was bought at the high price of the only one who could save us and redeem us. Lean on the power He gives to live as sinlessly as possible. Have a relationship with God not a religion. Love enough to see all people like God would see them not like your predisposition would see them.
Do that homosexual or heterosexual and you will find your desires aligning more with His desires day by day and you eventually will not even miss those sins you so loved before Christ came into your life. We all need discipleship no matter what sins we committed before Christ came into our lives. Some take longer to lay some things aside. We must believe God can take them from where they are to where they need to be. And that journey is different for us all.
I know this is an old blog, but I need some advice on what to do. I struggled with being attracted to guys and caring for them too much (I didn’t want to call it falling in love, but I only felt that once with a friend, I would do anything to make him happy everyday.) But I’ve never been in a relationship with a guy or kissed or done anything physical. For 22 years now I’ve wanted to more than anything though and it’s still a struggle. Before I cared for this guy, it was an easy enough fantasy to ignore but when he came along suddenly I felt something I had never felt – I actually wanted to get to know this guy and walk beside him through all the good and bad things going on in his life. I ignored it the best I could although no doubt he could tell how I felt and his parents could tell. Eventually I got over it, knowing he was straight and he couldn’t like me in return any more than I could stop liking him. But I tried and I prayed over and over about it. I even got married to this wonderful woman for 6 years and I was lucky to have her. She is hardworking and loyal and optimistic and faithful. But I wasn’t affectionate enough; I tried but I just couldn’t stay turned on as much as a husband should I guess.
Anyway, I’m not trying to end the long debate that went on in this blog entry or put my two cents in or pick a side. I want to know what I’m supposed to do. I prayed for 22 years, I’ve been married, I ignore thoughts daily, but I’m all alone and have no interest in marrying again ever. What do I do? Should I be alone and have no significant other?
Of course you can chose. Sexuality isnt all that defined. Of course today gender isnt all that defined. If transpeople can decide on their gender, how can you say your sexual attraction. is immutable. If gay men are supposed to be attracted to transmit, then they can be attracted to trans women. Im a straight woman, and if I thought I would have a more fulfilling life, and helped society be more moral by sleeping with women, you bet I would do it. Who wouldn’t? Obviously we are going in a. bad direction as a society. Suicide rates are going up. So is violence, so is depression, especially with kids. The more acceptance for different sexual identity, the more accessibility to mental health care people get, the worse things are for everyone. So something we didnt expect is happening.