Several readers have recently submitted questions about “soul sleep.” I have probably received 5 or 6 such questions in the span of two weeks. I am not sure why, since I have never received this question before on this blog. I wonder if maybe there was a prominent radio or television pastor who spoke about it recently, and so that is why I all of a sudden got so many questions about soul sleep, or maybe it was just pure coincidence.
Anyway, here is one example of the questions which have been submitted regarding what the Bible says about soul sleep:
Preachers teach when we die, we go to heaven. I was told my mother was in heaven. Yet the bible says she is asleep and waiting for Christ to return (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
Here is my response:
The Basic Teaching about Soul Sleep
The basic idea behind soul sleep is that when a person dies, they do not immediately go to heaven to be with God, but enter into a state of unconscious limbo. They are no longer alive, but they are not in heaven either. They are not conscious of being dead, but they have not ceased to exist. Instead, they are “asleep.”
In other words, it is believed that after death but before the resurrection, all people who have died are in a state of waiting for the final resurrection and the judgments that follow. They are not conscious of waiting, but are “sleeping.” When they are resurrected, it will seem as if they had just died mere moments ago, when it reality, it may have been thousands of years since their death.
One of the primary Scripture passages used to defend the idea of soul sleep is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, where Paul uses the term “asleep” to describe those who have died. Another text used to defend soul sleep is Ecclesiastes 9:5, which says that the dead do not know anything.
Is Soul Sleep Biblical?
I do not believe the Bible teaches soul sleep.
First, Ecclesiastes 9:5 should not be taken as a reference to whether or not the dead are “conscious.” Ecclesiastes is written for those who are “under the sun,” that is, for those who are alive (Eccl 1:1-3). As such, Ecclesiastes 9:5 is telling those who are alive that it is vanity and folly to seek help from the dead, for we will get no answers or help from them.
Secondly, though Paul does use the word “asleep” in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, this is not a reference to “soul sleep” but simply pictures how a dead person appears to one who is living. To someone who is alive, a dead person looks like they are “asleep.” This imagery is used elsewhere in Paul’s writings to describe death (cf. 1 Cor 11:30). So again, the term says nothing whatsoever about the consciousness (or lack of consciousness) of the dead.
Thirdly, we see various places in the Bible where people talk about what happens after death, and there does not seem to be any “unconscious waiting period” of soul sleep at all. When the thief on the cross asks Jesus to remember Him when He enters into glory, Jesus says, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Can it really be imagined that Jesus actually meant, “Today you will die, and then enter into a state of soul sleep, so that thousands of years from now when you are resurrected from the dead, you will be with me in paradise”? I don’t think so.
Then there is the Mount of Transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-8 where Moses and Elijah appear and talk with Jesus. If they are talking to Jesus, they certainly are not in some sort of unconscious soul sleep.
And of course, we mustn’t forget 2 Corinthians 5:8 where Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This once again seems to teach that as soon as our spirit departs from our body, it is immediately present with God.
There are a few other texts as well (feel free to include them in the comments below), but I think you get the point: Soul sleep is not taught in the Bible.
Here is (in my understanding) what happens after death
After a person dies, I believe their soul/spirit goes to the place where they will spend eternity. People who have believed in Jesus go to heaven. They are conscious and awake, but they do not have physical bodies.
At some point in the future there will be a physical resurrection of all people, at which point, everybody will receive incorruptible bodies. After this there will be a final judgment, and then an eternal existence with our new bodies.
I know, I know … I left out a lot of details. I left the question of hell unanswered. I left out almost everything the End Times and the various judgments that are talked about in the Bible. I left all that out because for the purpose of discussing soul sleep, none of that matters.
Bottom line: I do not believe in soul sleep. I believe that after a believer dies, they are immediately with God in heaven, and are conscious of it, and are conscious of other people there as well. They do not yet have bodies, but will receive them at the future resurrection.
Chuck McKnight says
This is a question I’ve given some consideration. As you know, I’ve come to believe the conditionalist (or annihilationist) view of hell, and soul sleep is often associated with that. However, I’m not convinced of it myself.
As I survey the Scriptures on the subject, I do see a lot of texts that talk about sleep or lack of consciousness after death, but I also see a lot that do seem to imply consciousness after death. So one of the two categories must be taken figuratively, and it’s a matter of figuring out which one. To me, the texts that speak of sleep seem to lend themselves more naturally to a figurative interpretation.
That said, I definitely do not believe that heaven is our eternal destination. Nor do I believe that our eternal bodies will be spiritual bodies. Once Christ returns, he give us renewed physical bodies, and he will place us back on this renewed earth, to tend it and keep it as he originally designed.
I’m inclined to think that the intermediate state will be conscious to some extent, but perhaps somewhat dreamlike—not as solid and real as our physical existence.
Taco says
I like your approach Chuck.
Jeremy Myers says
I think that is a good way of looking at it. I do not believe that heaven will be our eternal homes either. Like you, I believe that heaven is a temporary holding place while we wait our eternal bodies. Thanks for clarifying that!
Darryl says
Chuck, I hope you see this after ten years since you posted. God says through the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah chapter 65:17. . . For behold, I create new heavens
and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered
or come into mind.
After the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth and after God has judged the world at the Great White Throne judgment of the unrighteous and they are cast into hell, God will make the new earth where born again believers will live for eternity with God.
Lisa says
I have a question about Luke 23:43 …”truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (ESV)
A friend of mine believes in soul sleep. She says Luke 23:24 can’t be used to show that when we die we go immediately to Heaven because there is a misunderstanding of a Hebrew phrase that is used to emphasize the truth of a statement. The phrase is “I tell you today” or “This day I tell you”. That makes the punctuation in our translations incorrect and changes the meaning of what Jesus said.
Also she says Paradise is NOT Heaven but rather it is the Millenial Kingdom of God or Eden restored. It is an earthly place, not a heavenly place.
So what Jesus is saying is, “Today I am telling you, that when I come into my Kingdom, you will be with me.” It is a promise for the more distant future, not the immediate future of the dying thief.
Since I don’t know Hebrew (or the Greek that Luke is written in), I am dependent on translators to determine what is actually being said by Jesus in this verse. What do you think, Jeremy?
Susanne Schuberth (Germany) says
I will not stop searching till I have all the answers of Life, but one thing I know,
“Boy, not my day today. Really.”
CORRECTION:
“My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” (Phil 1:23 ESV)
Maybe, the gastric flu I have been sick with – and still am – which forced me to keep to my bed, has had a damaging effect on my brain as well. 😉
So long,
Susanne
Susanne Schuberth (Germany) says
Oops, how revealing (“brain damage”, hmm…).
Sorry, Lisa. This is not a reply to you (I am only soliloquizing currently). Alas, I posted my comment in the wrong place. It should be a bit further below.
Emilio Gomez says
Lisa- I believe your friend is absolutely correct.
The word “sleep” is a common biblical euphemism for death . Here are some verses you can look up. (Job 7:21; Ps. 13:3; 90:5; John. 11:11; 1 Cor. 11:30; 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:14; 5:10).Pslm 13:3)
Also, King David is dead and is said to be asleep but in contrast Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead Acts 13:36, Acts 2:34, 1Kings 2:10
The book of Daniel says the dead are asleep and awaiting the day they will be raised Dan 12:1-2
Deut 31:16 Moses is dead and asleep
Solomon is asleep and buried 1 Kings 11:43
1 Thess 4:13 This is a very important to God that we not be ignorant concerning the dead.
Jeremy Myers says
You probably don’t need Greek to understand this. It pretty much means the same thing in Greek as in English.
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It just seems unlikely that Jesus would say, “Today I am saying this to you: You will eventually be with me in paradise.” I cannot think of another place in the Bible where we find this usage of the word “today.” Do you know of any?
I also cannot think of a time where I have ever spoken this way or heard anyone else speak this way. Obviously, if they are speaking, they are speaking “today.”
Emilio Gomez says
Why did Jesus use the word “today?” In many languages, including Greek, Hebrew, and English, words that we normally think of as being “time words” are often used for emphasis. This happens with the English word “now” all the time. A teacher might say, “Now class, make sure you sign your test.” The purpose of “Now” in that sentence is not time, but emphasis, and that can be the case in both Hebrew and Greek as well (cp. Luke 11:39, Acts 13:11; 15:10; 22:16; 1 Cor. 14:26; James 4:13).
In Hebrew, the word “today,” or “this day” was also used for emphasis, and it is used that way many times in the Old Testament. “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today,…” (Deut. 4:26); “know therefore today,…” (Deut. 4:39); “And these words, which I command thee this day,…” (Deut. 6:6). “I testify against you this day, that you shall perish” (Deut. 8:19). A use that is very similar to Luke 23:43 is Deuteronomy 30:18, “I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish.” There is very little difference between, “I say to you today” (Luke 23:43) and “I declare to you today” (Deut. 30:18). Deuteronomy 9:1 says, “Hear O Israel today you are going to cross over this Jordan (P. Craigie; The New International Commentary on the Old Testament, without punctuation). It is vital that we understand that Israel did not cross Jordan “that day,” and in fact did not do so for another couple months. So “today” did not mean that very day, but was used for emphasis. Bullinger, Companion Bible, notes the punctuation of Deuteronomy 9:1 should be: “Hear O Israel today, you are…,” which is very similar to Luke 23:43. Other uses, just in Deuteronomy, that include the word “today” more for emphasis than for time, include 4:40; 5:1; 7:11; 8:1, 11, 19; 9:1, 3; 10:13; 11:2, 8, 13, 26, 27, 28, 32; 13:18; 15:5, 15; 19:9; 26:3, 16, 17, 18; 27:1, 4, 10; 28:1, 13, 14, 15; 30:2, 8, 11, 15, 16, 18, 19; 32:46.
Joshua 23:14 is another verse that uses “today” for emphasis, not time. As it is punctuated in the NASB, it reads, “Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth.” But Joshua did not die that day, which we can see by just reading the last two chapters of the Book of Joshua. Thus Joshua 23:14, Luke 23:43 and other verses we have seen should have the comma put after the word “today,” not before it
Gail Carver says
For a better translation,why not examine The Complete Jewish Bible by David Stern.
it says,Yeshua said “Yes! I promise that you will be with me Today in Gan-Eden.” The church is slowly embracing its Hebrew roots which is clarifying its understanding.For new insight read Yeshua, A guide to the Real Jesus and the Orginal Church by Dr. Ron Moseley.the American Institute of Holy Land Studies.
Mark says
Deut. 8:19 “And if you forget the Lord your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I solemnly warn you TODAY that you shall surely perish.” I don’t think they perished that day so where does the comma belong? Do a search for the word “today” or “this day” in bible gateway or similar source and you can find more.
Jeremy Myers says
I don’t know. The punctuation is not original, of course, so it primarily is a translator’s choice.
Mike says
Hebrews 4:6 Today? Monday?Friday?
No. The day you hear His Voice
Don’t harden your hearts. Plural.
Also n the Old Testament.
This in Lk. Today? Friday? Is Christ lying?
Or this period of time in days?
The thief would be with Him. Yes.
Hb 4:7 Today saying through KDavid. If you hear His voice.
Also. Did the Holy Spirit put the comma n Lk 23:43?
Courtney says
I feel like in this context He says once you worship other Gods that are not HIM than you shall perish that day you decide to worship them. Not perish physically, but your life metiphorically perishes. As in, “the life I have created for you” perishes
Susanne Schuberth (Germany) says
Unusually for me, this will turn out a brief comment, Jeremy. 😉
I agree wholeheartedly, no soul sleep we ever will see, but a spiritual body, eternally, until the resurrection of (our bodies’) highest degree.
Or in other words (Paul’s),
“My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” (Phil 1:12 ESV) –
Yep, right now, my Lord!
😎
Susanne Schuberth (Germany) says
Or no soul sleep we will ever see? No matter what word order, I know I won’t be sleeping after death. Anyway, how boring such a sleep would be, wouldn’t it?
Yaaaaaawn…
Jeremy Myers says
Right! I agree. Good summary.
Charity says
I agree with you.
But no amount of intelligent debate would ever convince the majority of my family of that (7th Day Adventists). *sigh*
Emilio Gomez says
Google “Hell and Mr Fudge”
Mr Fudge researched the subject of hell while all his life believing that the wicked burn in hell forever. If you watch the movie he mentions the 7th Day Adventist.
Disclaimer: I am not a 7th Day Adventist
Charity says
I have heard of Mr. Fudge. I think that study and resulting book is what started a controversial pastor (um… Bell?) on his teaching that there is no eternal hell — which is seen by many Christians as a heretical view. I haven’t read either book so I can’t embrace or dismiss it offhand. One potential problem I see with that theory having a negative impact on evangelism is that if there is no eternal hell, why strive to get people saved? If there is no eternal hell, they’ll simply no longer exist — so if they never accept Christ, it’s no big deal. They just won’t exist anymore. Doesn’t it undermine the urgency?
Anyway, back to the original topic of soul sleep — I’ve lost all my grandparents within a ten year period, the most recent one last month. As evangelicals, my family handled the passing with less grief because we don’t believe in soul sleep! In our minds, Grandpa passed out of immense suffering into the presence of Jesus and is at peace in heaven — not asleep waiting for the final judgment. He’s happy! But my SDA relatives aren’t handling it as well, because he’s GONE. Not just dead, but asleep — frozen somewhere, and that’s an awful thought for them to ponder. The idea that he’s happy in heaven assists me in overcoming grief, because instead of being simply sad at his non-existence, I am happy for him! The others can’t be happy, because in their minds, he’s not in heaven yet. He’s just… nowhere. (I have a sad but funny image in my mind of an angel walking through a room full of frozen souls, guarding them until the invisible timer goes off and all arise.)
I think it’s possible that soul sleep may have existed pre-Christ, at least for the believers, but that’s just a theory based on Saul’s experience with the resurrected Samuel (“Why did you call me from my sleep?” — boy, he woke up grouchy). I don’t see how Christians can argue with Jesus’ statements on the cross — “This day, you will be with me in paradise.” As a Christian, I think Jesus’ statements carry more weight than any other statements in scripture, because His words are literally from the mouth of God, not filtered through the disciples or apostles. They are wise, but they are not Christ. So, I guess my point is — I don’t see why people would embrace a doctrine that Jesus contradicts, with the end result of prolonging their own unhappiness and grief.
Which, in a way, leads us back to the “is hell eternal?” debate that started off this response. Do we embrace it at the cost of our own comfort level, or do we deny it because it gives us a warmer, more compassionate view of God? I don’t know the answers to those questions.
Emilio Gomez says
If you have ever been near death or someone you love has died you must surely know that death indeed is horrible, it is the end of life. Satan’s first recorded lie is “you shall not die”.
Death is constantly fed to us on TV, Movies, video games etc .. To the point many have become desensitized to it. Eternal death is a deterrent. John 3:16 gives us 2 choices 1. Everlasting life and 2. Perishing which is death not everlasting torment in hell.
1 Thess 4:13-18 says we are not to be ignorant concerning those who are asleep. So it is important to God that we get this right. It goes on to say that our hope is in the resurrection and that one day we will be made alive again and that we are to comfort each other with these words of hope.
Now, if you look at the record where Saul speaks to “Samuel”, Saul has inquired with a medium. What do mediums do? They call up evil spirits which is why God forbids that we speak to the dead. The evil spirit in this case is called “Samuel”. As you reread this, remember that God was no longer speaking to Saul, so Saul goes to the medium who deals in familiar spirits and gets the familiar spirit called Samuel to speak to Saul. When people today “communicate with the dead” they are doing the same thing Saul did.
On the cross Jesus was using a common Hebrew idiom “I tell you the truth today” in the same way a parent may say “Now you listen to me young man”. Jesus was saying “ Now I am telling you the truth” . So that verse reads “ I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.” Yes,I moved the comma. The original word of God did not have commas, they were added by the translators and sometimes they get it wrong based on their theology. More evidence on this verse is that Jesus did not go to paradise that day, he was dead for 3 days.
Now, again, I am not an SDA but they do appear to have this one aspect of the Word correct.
Charity says
(I can’t respond to your last comment, so I’ll respond to this one instead)
Death is only horrible if the person who dies didn’t go to heaven. Otherwise, it is merely painful and sad, because in Christ, we know that the end of this body isn’t the end of the soul.
1 Thess. 4:13-18 can be interpreted in different ways. You can argue as you do that it involves soul sleep, or you can argue that it references the resurrection of our physical, earthly bodies for the judgment. I don’t see any emphasis on soul sleep being the right answer – merely on a desire for us not to mourn those who have gone on before us, because we have hope in their eternal life. It’s meant as encouragement, not as “please get this right, it’s important to God.”
There’s no evidence in the text to support your claim that the spirit that appeared before the witch was not Samuel. The text only implies that the witch was frightened, which suggests she was not accustomed to a) either calling up real spirits, or b) dealing with genuinely resurrected souls. It’s possible that God allowed Samuel to wake from his sleep and deliver this message to Saul.
Jesus’ body was absent of his soul for three days. That does not mean his spirit was not elsewhere. 1 Peter 3:18 suggests that his body died, but his spirit went and preached to the souls in prison. (Some could argue that came later, but again, this is all subjective since no one can prove anything.)
Beyond the message of salvation, the underlining impact of the gospel is that Jesus’ death and resurrection changed everything. Why not the experience of life after death also?
Emilio Gomez says
You bring up another subject which goes hand in hand with “everlasting torment” which is the immortality of the soul. Anyone who believes in everlasting torment must believe the bible teaches the soul is immortal.
Again ,this is the original lie from Satan-“you shall not surely die” he told Eve and he wants us to believe that today. Immortality of the soul has been taught in Christianity for so long that few have taken the time to challenge that assumption.
God did not let Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Life (immortality ) because he did not want man to live forever-it would have ruined God’s plan.
The righteous seek immortality so they must not currently have it Rom 2:7
The phrase “immortal soul” is not in the Bible
The OTsays many times the wicked will be “destroyed”. Destroyed does not mean immortal
Immortality is a big deal and is a gift from God Rom 2:6-8 and 2Tim 1:1. Will God give the gift of immortality to the wicked so they can burn in hell forever? I really doubt it.
The apostle Paul says there will be a future date when man will “put on immortality” which means we do not currently have it 1 Cor15:51-54
Man is mortal as oppossed to God who is immortal Rom 1:23
When we study the whole Bible on the subject of the dead, we learn that no one gets a new body until the Rapture or the resurrections. God promises that each Christian will have a new body (Phil. 3:21), but we do not get it until the Lord comes for us and we are raised from the dead (1 Cor. 15:42-44). People die as mortals, but are raised as immortals.
Ronnie Williams says
Emilio you are so right on! Granted there are passages in the Bible that on the surface appear to support the idea of immediately going to Heaven at the time of death, but there are several passages that clearly support soul sleep! My stance would be to look at each passage to see if they might be taken in another way, because I don’t believe scripture is contradictory. The passage in 1 thessalonians 4:13-18 specifically states that the subject is about the state of the dead! After explaining what will happen to the departed loved one, Paul ends with “Therefore comfort one another with these words”! Don’t comfort each other with ” Mama’s in Heaven with Jesus” but that we can rest assured that Mama will live again and will have a head start on anyone still alive at the coming of the Lord!
Jeremy Myers says
I have read the books by Fudge. He presents a compelling case, but I don’t fully agree with everything he says.
Sam says
However, if time is not as we imagine it to be, neither to suppose that we will “immediately” be with the Lord, nor to suppose that we may exist in some state (sleep?) “until” a later time when we will be with the Lord, may make any sense.
Living here and now in the Kingdom, living and following Jesus where he is leading us now, rather than focusing on what may happen after the death of this body, however, does make sense.
Mark Brown says
Hi Sam,
It does seem that Jesus concerned Himself most with this approach to His life on earth as well, eh? …as He obediently followed the Father’s leading.
I mean, sure, He gave us many words that form our doctrine, teachings, “tenets of our faith”, etc. They also, of course, were only the words the Father gave Him to speak.
But I think overall, James agrees with our Lord, “Pure religion is this: to care for the widows and the orphans, and keep oneself unspotted from the world.”
Simple, eh?
Only if we walk by the Spirit, and thus do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh!
Keep running the race set before you brothers; persevering to the end.
Love in Christ,
Mark B.
Jeremy Myers says
Good point, Sam. Time is not the same thing then as now. At least, I assume it is not. ???
Gerrie Malan says
What we have here is the old (Mosaic) dispensation concept of a temporary destination called sheol in Hebrew (Old Testament) and hades in Greek (New Testament). Sheol/Hades was the temporary holding place or prison for the souls of those who died (went to sleep) within the Old Covenant dispensation. Here the souls of the dead were believed to be waiting in two sections (the righteous and unrighteous) and with a great divide between them, for the resurrection and judgment to come on the Day of the Lord. See, for example, the description in 1 Kings 2:10: “So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David”. The Good News Bible (also called Today’s English Version) renders it, “David died and was buried in David’s City”. As you can see, the word ‘died’ no longer conveys any image of the sleeping idea, and there also is no connection with the presence of his fathers. Unfortunate translation errors have substantially distorted our understanding of these concepts.
Whereas ‘sheol/hades’ referred to a temporary destination, we find in the concept of gā-Hinnom (Heb) and géenna (Gehenna’) (Greek) the place or everlasting judgment and desolation. The word comes from the Hebrew Valley of Hinnom, which really was the city’s sewage gulley, where even the bodies of people were thrown in addition to being used also as a place where human sacrifices and sacrifices to idols were made (e.g.people who sacrificed their children to Molech). Gehenna was thus always associated with a place of bodily and spiritual punishment, not only for the Jews, but for all evil people. In the NT the word gehenna is presented as the place in which the unrighteous will be thrown after the last judgment – a place of matyrdom for both body and soul as declared in Matt 5:29-30. Concepts such as the pit, abyss and pool of fire are different terms, but seemingly related to the concept of gehenna or final judgment. We can safely say it was/is a place of total abandonment from God.
The concepts of the resurrection and judgment that must or was to come, was/is therefore rooted in the concept of sheol/hades. It is no longer part of the New Covenant dispensation.
The judgment of Revelation 20, was the judgement that coincided with the crucifiction of Jesus and destruction of the Temple 40 years later. After that no temporary holding place of the souls of the deceased applied again. See also Daniel 12, which entails the same message pertaining to the end of that dispensation. Please note the statement in Daniel 12:1,2: “…and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt”.
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”. (Rev 20:13-15)
The Mosaïc dispensation was founded on and rooted in works according to the Law.
Only after this judgement was fulfilled one finds John describing the vision of the New Heavens and New Earth – which John Lightfoot and others pointed out in centuries past was the prophetic imagery of the New Testament dispensation. Remember that the most important principle involved in understanding the Scriptures, is that Scripture best interprets Scripture.
• “but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant…”. (Heb 12:22-24)
• “we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord”. (2 Cor 5:8)
Stephen Butler says
Jeremy , it also seems to me that another good scripture to validate your post would be Hebrews 12 and the great cloud of witnesses. Kinda hard to witness us if they’re all asleep.
Jeremy Myers says
Yes! Great point. Thanks!
Emilio Gomez says
Hebrews 11:13 makes it clear all these people died.
Heb11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised.
Shawn says
I am shocked by your analysis.
1. Paul DOES NOT SAY to be absent from the body [means; is] equates to being present with the Lord. I would like to be absent from class and present at the beach. However, to be absent from class IS NOT TO BE present at the beach; think about this.
2. Matthew 17 clearly describes a VISION. A vision, not a visitation by the dead: “As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the VISION to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.” “Cognate: 3705 hórama (a neuter noun derived from 3708 /horáō, “to see, spiritual and mentally”) – a vision (spiritual seeing), focusing on the impact it has on the one beholding the vision (spiritual seeing). See 3708 (horaō).”
3. “After a person dies, I believe their soul/spirit goes to the place where they will spend eternity. People who have believed in Jesus go to heaven. They are conscious and awake, but they do not have physical bodies. ”
What need of the resurrection? What of resurrection and judgment? Are these integral, essential concepts not obviated by your “belief”?
4. This nonsense about disembodied consciousness is not Scriptural; it is Greek, as is the concept of natural soulish immortality. If the “dead” are actually “alive”, self-aware, then they are not dead and they did not die.
If men do not die, Christ did not die and your faith is in vain. If YOU and I do not die we do not partake in Christ’s death and resurrection. To arbitrarily and unScripturally limit “death” to the body, denying that consciousness and personality cease in death, is to gibber — is to make a distinction with no merit; to make a distinction without point or purpose; to make no distinction at all.
5. “Soul sleep” is a bad phrase which confuses the issue. The key to the issue of consciousness in death is to understand that the state of being dead is wholly incompatible with consciousness. Period, no need to probe further. To be conscious is to be alive. The living can be unconscious. The dead cannot be conscious OR be unconscious: they have ceased to exist. THIS is why we have hope, that though we will have ceased to be, though we be not found, He will bring us back from nothingness.
In this, the CONCEPT so poorly expressed by the phrase “soul sleep” is found to be perfectly in harmony with all Scripture. The living die, ceasing to exist except as memories, losing consciousness and volition. Father vivifies us, resurrecting us, we become conscious again — with the perception that no time has elapsed between our death and resurrection, as if we merely slept a dreamless sleep.
Lisa says
Shawn,
I have a question about point #4.
Doesn’t Jesus say that those who keep His word will never see death? (John 8:51) What does this mean if we still must die body and soul before the resurrection?
Sam says
Wow! You’re so certain you’re absolutely correct on all this and everyone else is wrong. Hmmm…… My wife asks if you have read Dan Piper’s “90 Minutes in Heaven”. Obviously Mr. Piper can’t prove that he was there for 90 minutes, nor can we prove he wasn’t. There are others who report similar experiences. I’ve met a few of those people. Then there are those people who report they died and went to hell and then the doctors revived their bodies. Guess we’ll find out how it really works after we’ve died, right? (I’m assuming you didn’t die, were revived and had nothing to report.)
Jeremy Myers says
I don’t really have too much interest in debating this. There is so much to emphasize about how to live in this life now, that focusing too much on what happens after we die is nearly pointless. But regardless, to answer one of your questions, the resurrection is needed because that is when we get our glorified bodies.
Emilio Gomez says
God thinks this subject is important and he tells us not to be ignorant concerning those who are asleep.
1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope
Death is an enemy, and it hurts very deeply. The natural and proper response to death is grief. Even animals grieve, even if it is for a short time. The orthodox belief that the dead go immediately to heaven to be with Jesus has sometimes caused Christians to try to not grieve, but to rejoice. This is confusing at best, can be especially harmful to children, who hurt terribly over the death of a loved one, but are told that they should be happy for them instead of being sad, as if being sad was selfish. If it is proper doctrine to rejoice at the death of a Christian, then this would be the place to say it. But no, Paul writes that we should grieve, but not in the same way as the rest of mankind, who believe that death ends any meaningful life. This points also to the Greco-Roman culture of the time. Although there was among some people a concept of an afterlife, even then it was uncertain and not a wonderful place. The majority of the people, however, were uncertain as to whether there even was an afterlife, so death was very bitter indeed.
Shawn says
Well, I keep His word, and I fully expect to die. But enough about me — Christ’s Apostles and Paul certainly kept His word, and certainly died. Jesus kept His Father’s word, and Jesus died.
When you explain to me how it can be that these died though they kept His word, I will show you what this verse is meaning.
Also, please, do not forget that saying “dying body and soul” is the same as saying “dying body and body” from a Scriptural perspective. Do not make distinctions where Scripture does not, and learn the distinctions made in Scripture.
Shawn says
Oh, ok, I relent.
“Doesn’t Jesus say that those who keep His word will never see death? (John 8:51)”.
No. Jesus does not say that.
Jesus says, “verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see — to the age” (YLT). Here is the Interlinear verse: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-51.htm.
What means this? Jesus is saying, as noted above, that those keeping His word have aionian life, commonly called Millennial life.
He is not saying they will not die — that would be stupid, and would also contradict the Scripture (sit down and take a deep breath): Ezekiel 18:20, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die”).
Lisa says
Thank you for looking up the verse. So it is literally: “death he may not see – to the age”?
The meaning of that is not obvious to me – I am not familiar with Greek sentence structure. I would understand the preposition “to” as indicating going toward or forward into the age; in other words, starting now and continuing “to” the age. I will have to think that over.
I am not referring to the body. I understand it must die as it is unredeemed. We are still waiting for the redemption of our bodies (Rom.8:24). The part of us that doesn’t die would have to be something immaterial. Paul tells the Ephesians they were dead in trespasses and sins and were made alive together with Christ (this happened in their past)….he also says Christ lives in believers (Col.1:27, Gal 2:20) so I would think if we must first die before the resurrection, Christ would have to leave us for that time as He cannot die. Yet He says He will never leave us.
The post is about whether this immaterial part of us is conscious or unconscious until the resurrection. Your understanding is that it is dead or nonexistent. I have never heard that before.
Shawn says
This is not about Greek sentence structure. It is about what Scripture says. This Creation has several known dimensions, the four most widely known being 3 spatial (height, width, depth) and 1 temporal (time).
Time exists here. As with the spatial dimensions, we measure it. One measure of time found throughout Scripture is the “age” AKA “aion”. Aions have beginnings and endings. The Scripture discusses several aions. We are living in an aion, and Scripture describes two additional aions to follow this one. As aions are of limited duration — having a beginning and ending — they cannot also be used to mean “eternity”, as “eternity” has no beginning or ending. “Black” cannot mean “white”. “Span of time with a beginning and ending” cannot mean “forever”. This is not difficult to understand. Nor is it difficult to translate.
However, “aion” as used in Scripture is not translated consistently — nor are the Greek words translated as “hell”. This inconsistent translation is not a matter of lack of knowledge, but of the intrusion of politics and human tradition into the translation process. It was intentional.
“The part of us that doesn’t die would have to be something SIC immaterial [I believe you mean “immaterial” in the sense of “non-corporeal” as opposed to “having no use or value”]”. This is obvious. But as there is no part of us that Scripture tells us is immortal, likewise there is no part of us that is non-corporeal. That is to say, the animating spark that God puts in us, the Spirit that makes us alive, while non-corporeal, is not a part of us, technically. It is God’s; He gives it and He takes it back. When God takes back His breath of life from us, we return to the dust of the ground. Well, our bodies do; “we” simply cease to exist except as memory.
In any event, as there is no part of us that doesn’t die, the supposed nature of this non-existent “immortal” part is not relevant.
“The post is about whether this immaterial part of us [which does not exist] is conscious or unconscious until the resurrection”. WE are not conscious once we die; THIS is what being dead means. We have no consciousness, no volition.
“Your understanding is that [this immaterial part of us which does not exist] is dead or nonexistent until the resurrection. I have never heard that before”. You did not know that we have no immaterial part other than God’s breath of life in us. You did not know we have no immortality of any sort until the resurrection. It is perfectly normal for Christians to not know these things, to never have heard of these things. How could you know these things? It is not your fault. It is the fault of your clergy. Although you are not reading the Scripture to verify the teaching you receive, your clergy are not even reading the Scripture themselves in order to learn and teach correct doctrine.
These things are not “my understanding”. I learned these things from Scripture. These things are true.
Lisa says
What do you think Paul means in Ephesians 2? In what way were the Ephesians dead and in what way were they made alive with Christ?
Shawn says
Please review the PDF beginning on page 16:
http://www.stfonline.org/pdf/rev/ephesians_commentary.pdf
High points:
Scripture often refers to events that will happen in the future as if they had already happened in order to emphasize a point.
“Dead” is here used proleptically, meaning the event (death) is actually future, but it is referred to as a present reality.
“Dead” is used in a figurative sense, as it is clear Paul was writing to living people.
“Dead” has two figurative meanings. The primary meaning is proleptic: it is speaking of the future result of unforgiven sin, which is everlasting [incorrect translation and theology, s/be “aion-lasting”, not “everlasting”] death. The secondary meaning is that the person who is not born again and sealed with the gift of holy spirit is “spiritually dead.” (There are commentators who say “spiritual death” is literal. We agree it is real, but shy away from “literal,” because “spiritual death” only makes sense because we understand actual physical “death.” The phrases “spiritually dead,” or “spiritual death,” do not occur in the Bible).
Lisa says
Thank you for the link to the commentary. I will spend some time on it. Who is the author?
Shawn says
I don’t know who the author is, I found it online while thinking about the reply to your prior post.
Emilio Gomez says
The author is John Schoenheit and he has a book on the subject “Is There Death After Life”?
Lisa says
I find on the Internet that John Schoenheit is associated with The Way International, “a nontrinitarian nondenominational Christian ministry”. Some have called it a cult.
(Interestingly, Shawn, I found two other groups that view this issue of soul sleep/death the same way you do and they are both offshoots of Herbert W. Armstrong’s Worldwide Church of God – and both of them nontrinitarian as well.)
Anyway, I can’t agree with his nontrinitarianism and that casts doubt on his exegesis of Scripture in my mind. (If you are going to tell me that the Trinity is unBiblical I am not interested in that debate at the present time.)
Emilio Gomez says
If one day you decide to question the traditional belief in the Trinity, you will find the biblical evidence against it is overwhelming and the bible will make much more sense to you.
Shawn says
Wow! Sam, if you are asking me if I’m sure I’m correct, yes, I’m sure I’m correct. I’m sure of what the Scripture says, I know most of the process whereby we arrive at faulty doctrine, I am well able to correctly divide the Scripture. Technically, it is not that I’M correct, but that the Scripture is clear and coherent to many people, of whom I am one.
Thanks for asking!
By the way, is your note about me being “certain [I’m] absolutely correct on all this and everyone else is wrong” supposed to be a favorable comparison between me and almost all the Scriptural prophets and Jesus? If so, I’m flattered.
I do have to point out an error in your logic, though. You say “Mr. Piper can’t prove that he was there for 90 minutes, nor can we prove he wasn’t”, but that’s not true. His assertion is disallowed by Scripture. Period. Whatever happened to Mr. Piper — if anything — must accord with Scripture. Human consciousness in death does not accord with Scripture.
Mark Brown says
Hi Shawn,
Are you married? 🙂
Funny question, I know.
I’m just thinking that whenever I get really adamant (and talk with an authoritative and absolutist tone), with my wife… well, let’s just say she finds it really hard not to tune me out (or tune me in, in some way).
How’s it seem to work for you? …with those close to you in your life?
Sincerely,
Mark
Shawn says
For the Love of Christ, Mark. Really?
We were married at 24, already together 3 years. First child at 28, second at 30. We will celebrate our 20th wedding anniversary this year.
I am a member of the Body of Christ. My wife considers herself a Christian Wiccan. My children are free to believe or not as they choose.
I never speak to my wife in an authoritative or absolutist tone, so I don’t know how that would work. I don’t suppose it would work well.
I’d advise you to stop talking to folks like that. I’d also advise you to stay on topic and stop asking silly questions.
Mark Brown says
Shawn,
Thanks for the advise, and sorry for the silly question.
Good reminder to stay on topic too (never been one of my strong suits).
It’s true that we seem to write differently than we would converse with others, eh?
I’m glad that you feel your “children are free to believe or not as they choose.” I believe (concerning all people) that will always be the case! Our Lord Jesus will not ever force anyone to submit to him. We are all simply fools when we do not, eh?
See ya soon!
In Christ,
Mark
Shawn says
No worries Mark. Thankfully, all foolishness will eventually end, all men shall be saved and come into knowledge of the truth, acknowledging Jesus as Christ, to the joy of Father, that God may be all-in-all.
Emilio Gomez says
Come on Shawn ! Me and you were in harmony on this thread but now I’m not so sure. “All men will be saved”?? We may need to start a seperate discussion on that topic.
Shawn says
“But regardless, to answer one of your questions, the resurrection is needed because that is when we get our glorified bodies.”
Soooo — are our glorified bodies alive before we inhabit them or dead before we inhabit them?
Lisa says
Let me make a guess – created new for us at that moment. Why not?
Lisa says
our old ones would be decomposed and have to be reassembled … lots of the original atoms and molecules would be long gone…so isn’t that a recreation?
Jeremy Myers says
There are no glorified bodies before we inhabit them. They are neither dead nor alive. That’s like asking if a human being exists before they are conceived.
Shawn says
Lisa, I like it! Behold, He makes all things new! Also, as you point out with the atoms, molecules, etc., some of those materials have been in different people at different times. How would they be reassembled? If glorified bodies be made of such . . . .
Kibooli Felix says
I Dont Believe, The Soul Sleep Doctrine Is Biblical. First Of All, In Phillipians 1:23, Paul Expresses His Desire To Depart And Be Christ-“For Iam In A Strait Betwixt Two, Having A Desire To Depart, And To Be With Christ: Which Is Far Better:” In Phillipians 1:21, Paul Begun By Saying, “for To Live Is Christ, And To Die Is Gain!” Now How Could Paul Have Gained From Death If He Was Merely Going To Be Non Existent While Waiting For Resurrection! In 1 Thessalonians 4:14, Paul Tells us-” For If We Believe That Jesus Died And Rose Again, Even So THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS Will God Bring With Him” This Means The Deceased Believers Will Be Brought By Jesus During His Second Advent To Receive Glorified Bodies. It Is Only The Material Part(body) That Returns To Dust! Remember Man Is A Triune Being! Having Body, Soul And Spirit
Faith says
After reading these comments, it seems that the controversy lies with those that have non-traditional views of Christianity. Those views are not new, but they are not accepted as true by most of us.
Having lost people that I love, I believe that they are with the Lord, now. All the supporting evidence, for me, is included in the post and the comments from those that also share this belief.
Tim Winston says
This is what I choose to believe concerning death.
What happens to our souls and spirits when our flesh bodies die? Some choose to believe that our souls and spirits are in the grave awaiting the return of Christ and the resurrection of our flesh bodies, souls and spirits. Some call this “soul sleep”. I believe differently based on the following verses, among many.
1 Corinthians 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
(What this verse is saying is, when these flesh bodies of ours die).
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(Our spirits return to God).
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Prevent: G5348, fthan’-o; apparently a primary verb; to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at:—(already) attain, come, prevent.
Asleep: G2837, koy-mah’-o; from; to put to sleep, i.e. (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively, to decease:—(be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead; (The subject of the above verses is what happens when we die; death in other words. It is not about sleeping. Verse 14 refers to the death of Jesus). These 2 definitions are from a Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance.
Try the following website for a good explanation:
https://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html
Other pertinent verses in my opinion: Mark 12:27; Luke 16:19-31; 1 Corinthians 15:40-50; 2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Revelation 7:9; etc. I’m sure there are more.
Margaret Vaughan says
How can you explain:-
1. Ecclesiastes 12:7] “Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.” The words ‘breath’ and ‘spirit’ are interchangeable many times in the Bible. The word in Hebrew is ‘ruach’ and in Greek the word ‘spirit’ is often translated as ‘pneuma’, which means ‘breath’. Translated as ‘spirit’ the mistake is often made that the breath leaving the body is a ghost or spirit.
2. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 “] “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.”
3. [Job 14:21] “If their children are honoured, they do not know it; if their offspring are brought low, they do not see it.”
4. [John 5:28-29] “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth–those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
John T. says
John 3:13 ??
David says
If I die, and have a spiritual body, why would I later want to be trapped in a physical body again?
Timothy says
So I’m curious when Jesus raised ppl who were dead for instance the young girl she wasn’t sleep but she was in heaven with God was Lazarus in heaven already b4 Jesus called him back to life
Ray says
Hello. So, what would be the difference between our soul and resurrected body? Will we just be some disembodied being that has no physical form?
Jack Albert says
For all those who believe in the heresy of Soul Sleep, you should be made aware that the Large concensus and teaching of the the early Church Fathers and the earliest Apostolic Christians taught the complete opposite of Soul sleep. So if you believe in or teach Soul sleep, you are subscribing yo an unorthodox aberration that is completely different than true Orthodox Christianity.
For Example:
St. Ireneus was a disciple of St Polycarp. Polycarp, the bishop of Smyrna, had himself been a disciple of the Apostle John and therefore provided a direct line of tranmission of the Christian Tradition from the Apostles. He writes:
“The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence”
You can see a clear synopsis of the consensus of the earrly Church on the matter here:
https://britishorthodox.org/glastonburyreview/issue-121-the-intermediate-state-of-the-soul/
Darryl says
Gen 35:18 About Rachel. . . And as her soul was departing (for she was dying),
Eccl 12:7. . . and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Acts 7:59. . . And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”