Christians are notorious for bad behavior. Some Christians and church people are just downright mean. Why is this? Why are Christians so mean?
In some recent surveys (reported in books like unChristian
And I will admit, I myself can behave pretty badly at times, and many of the Christians I know behave in far worse ways than many of the unbelievers I know. I am always amazed at the grace, love, support, and forgiveness that is found among the “unchurched” which is rarely found among those who go to church.
There are numerous contributing factors to this.
Reasons Christians are Mean
Some of it is our theology. Many Christians develop a sense of entitlement because we are the “chosen ones” the “elite” the members of the family of God. We feel this gives us the right to look down upon others who are not one of us.
Sometimes, our behavior is a result of our understanding of God’s grace and forgiveness. We feel that because God forgives us for all our sins, we can treat others in terrible ways, and God will still forgive us. While it is true that God will forgive us for such behavior, His grace is never a license to treat others so shamefully.
Then there is the critical, judgmental, legalistic attitude so often taught and practiced in churches. Since we feel we have a corner on the truth and that we are the ones who are always right, this makes us believe that it is our responsibility to be the world’s policemen, going around pointing out where people are wrong and how they are sinning. This is rarely received well by anyone, especially when we have glaringly obvious sins in our own life.
Finally, there is the fact that Christians love to pick and choose which sins are the worst – things like homosexuality and murder – while ignoring sins that are prevalent within our own congregations (which might actually be much worse) – sins like gluttony, greed, and pride. The watching world sees our blatant hypocrisy and criticizes us in return for our unjustified criticism of them.
But over the years, as I have personally engaged in hypocritical and sinful behavior, and as I have watched other Christians do the same, I have found that there are several excuses we give for our poor treatment of other people, and for sin in our own lives. When we treat others badly, we give excuses for why our treatment of them is justified.
Here are the top ten reasons I could think of:
1. We Christians are sinners too.
There are other versions of this excuse, such as “Hey! Nobody’s perfect!” or “I’m not perfect; just forgiven.”
The idea behind this excuse is that the watching world has put unrealistic expectations on us as Christians. We complain that they seem to think we should live perfect lives, which is impossible. So when we sin, and our sin is pointed out to us, we excuse our actions by reminding others that we are sinners too.
Theologically, this is correct.
But such a statement should never be used to excuse our sin. When our sin is pointed out to us, either by a Christian or a non-Christian, the proper response is not “Hey, I’m a sinner too, so get off my back about my behavior” but rather should be, “You know what? You are correct. I messed up. I am sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. With God’s help, I will do better next time.”
2. It’s nothing personal; it’s just business.
Sometimes people say, “This has nothing to do with my Christianity.”
Christians who say these things reveal a deep misunderstanding of what following Jesus is all about. For a follower of Jesus, there is no such thing as “it’s just business.” Truly following Jesus requires that we make changes in all aspects of life, not just in our behavior and dresscode on Sunday morning. If we are treating others shamefully at work and through our business practices, we are not properly representing Jesus in our lives. We must not divorce our spiritual life from our personal life or from our work life.
3: Judge not, lest you be judged.
People don’t like their sin pointed out to them. I know I don’t. And it is easy to get defensive and tell people to mind their own business. But if we are failing to be salt and light in the world, then we are supposed to be held to higher standards, and sometimes this means people will point out to us our failures.
When this happens, it is easy to get upset, lash out, and tell people that they have their own sin to take care of (which is likely true). But such arguments about who is the worst sinner rarely lead to anything good.
4. It isn’t illegal.
I know a Christian lawyer from New York who steals money from others legally. I challenged him on it once, and he said that he is not doing anything illegal, which was technically true. He had the law of the United States on his side, and he had figured out a way to legally swindle people. Nothing he was doing was breaking any of our nations’s laws.
But there is a big difference between not breaking the laws of our nation, and treating people with love, respect, and dignity. God’s laws are higher than man’s laws, and even though a person may be following man’s laws perfectly, this does not mean they are following God’s laws. So be careful when you justify your actions because you are not breaking any laws.
5. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. I’m just treating them the way they treated me.
It is funny how we often feel that retaliation is within our rights as Christians, and we quote Scripture to prove it. Quoting Scripture in this way is similar to how the devil quoted Scripture to Jesus in the wilderness: the Scripture is ripped out of context and completely misapplied.
If we are truly following Jesus, we will forgive our enemies, and love, bless, and pray for those who mistreat us.
6. They’re not Christians.
Some people have the misguided belief that we are only to treat those within the family of God with honesty and respect. Those outside the family of God can be slandered, abused, and swindled. Sometimes Christians will say, “When in Rome, do as the Romans.” In other words, the world operates on a different set of ethics than Christians do, and so when we deal with Christians, we must use their set of ethics.
All I can say to this is…. “Where is that in Scripture again?”
7. I have righteous anger. In your anger do not sin.
Be careful if you ever find yourself quoting this verse. When this verse is being quoted, very rarely is the anger in question actually “righteous anger.” Usually, it is self-righteous anger, and we are sinfully lashing out at someone who slighted us, and then justifying our anger by calling it “righteous anger.”
8. Don’t throw pearls before swine.
I actually know some Christians who say this. They say that all non-Christians are swine, and should be treated as such. We are only to treat Christians nicely.
9. What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.
No. It doesn’t. Enough said.
10. Hey, I’m not in church!
As with some of the other excuses above, this excuse reveals a deep-seated misunderstanding of what the church is and how followers of Jesus are supposed to live and function. Church is not a place you go to for a couple hours on Sunday morning. It is not an event at which you temporarily change your clothing and behavior.
Church goes with you wherever you go, and so no matter what you are saying or doing, you are representing Jesus and His church.
Bonus: We must please God rather than men.
I love this one, especially when Christians quote it as a way to justify being mean and rude to other people. Somehow the twisted logic is that we can please God by pissing off other people. Or something like that. But I have a feeling that if we are trying to please God and in the process are making friends, family, coworkers, and neighbors hate us, we probably are not pleasing God either.
Any others?
Are there others that you know of which didn’t make it on this list? Include them in the comments below.
And remember: of course Christians still sin. But when our sin is pointed out to us, the proper response is not to make excuses, but to say, “You are right. I am sorry. Please forgive me.”
I grew up in a home with no religion. I was saved in my 20’s. I went through many trials of my faith, including my child becoming very ill and disabled. None of these things, while incredibly hard, shook my faith. At the absolutely hardest points of my life, I have been mistreated very badly by Christian people. I was taken advantage of in business dealings, where I operated with the highest of workmanship and moral code, to the point that my savings were wiped out and I almost became homeless. At this point I was the equivalent of a poor widow with an ill orphaned child.These people knew exactly what they were doing, but the people they went to church with wouldn’t know. I believe the most important aspect of our life on earth is our relations with others, and our fairness, mercy, kindness, and compassion towards them. I find very few “Christians” who live by any kind of moral code when they are alone. They may go on a “mission” trip where their fellow churchgoers can see them, but put them in dealings with hardworking, honest people and they behave worse than the people one would expect to swindle or harm them. Cheating, lying, deceit, injustice. They truly act like ravenous wolves feeding upon the blood of the weaker, or the not so well connected. I gave up on my faith, not because of the Lord, but because I could not see how those who espoused Christ reflected anything but malevolence. Over and over and over. I still just cannot see how these people reflect anything loving or good. I decided that if this was the family of Christ, I would be much better off without it. And I have been. I do not need promise of reward or punishment to treat human beings with love, kindness, or compassion. Christians have done a grave disservice to the God they profess to follow. They have thrown me dead in the ditch, and then refused me aid. Do I forgive this? Yes, but for my own survival in this world, I will not forget. Being crucified with Christ is noble, but even He did not spend his life upon the cross. I have been greatly hurt, but I am entering a nursing career where I may be of service to the ill and dying, because I love my fellow man. Not those who can do things for me, but those who can’t. Lose money, fall ill, be in a time of misfortune, and they can smell your blood. I prefer lawyers, at least you know what you have there. I don’t know if I believe that intentional acts are sure to be forgiven just because someone is a Christian. Many Christians would do well to stop believing this, they might inflict less harm.
Some, but not all, of the meanest, most unkind people we know attend church and call themselves Christians. That’s why some of us who really do follow Jesus often hesitate to use the term to describe ourselves.
I know a man who worked for a “Christian Business Directory” company a few years ago. He sold advertising. Many of the ads featured Christian logos and symbols. I asked him if the directory was featured businesses that were run by Christians, or businesses that wanted Christian customers.
He told me that often neither the businesses nor customers were Christians. The businesses advertised and pretended to be Christian because they assumed people would think the business was honest and would do good work. Often, the customers pretended to be Christians so the “Christian” businesses would give them a discount. He had many stories to back up what he said.
Even though churches and the world are filled with pretend Christians, that does not negate the reality of Jesus, God in flesh. We do not look at churches or Christians, but at Jesus. Maybe other people don’t act like Jesus, but we can. You too can follow him and let the ill and dying you will be serving see Jesus in your love, kindness and service to them. May he bless you.
I have noticed even more lately how some people in our church pick and choose who they consider to be their “friends”. It seems many times they choose friends by how rich they are financially and not by their kindness. It hurts sometimes, but I have to remind myself that I serve God and we will all have to answer to him in the end.
My wife and I have seen the same thing. We later learned that the people who chose rich or popular friends were often salesmen and people who wished to borrow money. Money and fame have a way of “attracting” friends. We have little of either and rarely attract those kind of friends.
Thank you for your comment, Sam. It makes sense what you said about money attracting people. I am just thankful there are still some kind, true Christians in this world. I believe kindness will prevail as long as we all unite and keep our eyes upon God.
I wonder if “entertainment Church” of the evangelicals is creating a false impression of what Christianity is–you show up for a “rock concert” where some young, flashy people play upbeat music, usually some gorgeous girls, young, attractive men. And then Kids’ Church–what’s the deal with that? One Church we attended served popcorn and made it seem like the kids were at the movies. Shallow, vapid evangelical Christianity. You’d be better off at the actual mall or movies because at least that’s honest, right? The same “popcorn Church” didn’t even make a point of introducing the children to each other–the most basic of manners. What are new Christians or seasoned Christians supposed to think? How are you supposed to grow in your faith in environment’s like that? Or how about Care Groups? usually run by some inept volunteer leader. . .I like to call them “lack of Care Group”–out in the “world” people receive a lot of training to care for others–but in Church it’s something of a free for all. I think modern evangelical Churches simply have systemic problems that can be traced all the way up the ladder to the seminaries. Churches want to be cool and instead have become cold. Do you know what’s cool? Integrity, character, warmth, kindness.
David, Agreed. It’s difficult to know what to call some of these organizations. Maybe movie night and popcorn churches? On the other hand, we know many Christians who do indeed display “Integrity, character, warmth, kindness,” who are indeed dismayed by those who call themselves Christians, yet do not display those characteristics.
i always ask god to give me and my family just what he knows we need, not what we want and so far god is always there if not he’s not that far away.
This also happen to me but what I learned from it was to seek the ones that no one seemed to noticed. I wanted to make sure no one felt hurt, that they felt wanted. I think a lot of times we go through things because we would not see the need. This way we have a deeper empathy for what others are going through and can be the hands and arms of God by showing love. I asked God to fill me with His love and what I have learned is I must get over myself. that is a trick of the enemy we get all caught up in our emotions. look at Jesus He was treated worse then any of us and we did it to HIM!! All of us put HIM on that cross but He looked beyond the pain and the hurt. He asked that we would be forgiven!! We are in a war!! look beyond flesh and fight in the spirit!!! No one said it was easy but it is a commandment to LOVE. See when that person acts that way, they are under attack. PRAY for them and watch GOD MOVE
“Under attack” isnt that an excuse too?
Amen. God also impressed upon me that when I see a problem, I am to intercede through prayer, thanksgiving and supplication…Then Praise Him. We do NOT know the hearts of man…
I absolutely hate how the enemy works!! He loves separating people who praise God. He hates us a d wants all of us to NEVER succeed living like our savior Jesus Christ. Lets NOT GIVE HIM THE POWER TO DO THAT TO US!!!I love u all!
Your words moved me to tears. To reach out to those in NEED of love. Maybe many people act so badly & meanly because they do not know what it is like to be loved. The ones who act out the worst are often those who seem hardest to love & be kind to but aren’t they maybe the very ones who need love most? You reminded me of this with what you wrote and gave me the motivation to try and seek out those who might be most in need of being loved and included and noticed and listened to. Thank you.
Christian churches have people in the church that get hurt by Christian friends or partner and completely dismiss them as unbelievers. If people don’t do things that are exactly the same as them they are treated as unbelievers and cast aside and they use scripture to justify this. Treat him as an unbeliever. But they completely strip a person of their rights to have a relationship with God saying that they are not truely saved
Sam, don’t EVER be hesitant to be called a Christian. What the Bible teaches us is that we are NOT to judge the world, but to judge the Church in a right manner.
The problem really lies in that 80-90 of the entire world-wide Christian church is FALSE Christians. False Christians are what the parables are all about, what the separating of wheat and tares are about, and so forth. Most think those things are about saved and unsaved, but it simply is not true.
Stand firm, but be humble and never be upset about someone pointing out your sin (when you do), as no true Christian would ever respond with anger. I want to know if I have/am sinned and not noticed, since I live for Christ and will never want to sin any more than a bare minimum. Our perfection will not come until Christ returns.
iv been in Church since 1977. iv yet to make but one or two friends. it’s 2023. when my son passed in 2021, I never got one phone call. I still follow Jesus. no friends. I call these two, they never call me.
I’m very sad to hear you have had this experience. I wish you peace and love in your grieving over the loss of your son. Although I’m only fifty, I am an old school traditionalist so I prefer hymns to rock concerts. What I have found is that I want nothing to do with these mega churches and sadly, more and more I don’t want anything to do from the shallow people who seem to be attending these days. The pews seem filled with people more concerned with policing their versions of what God wants and judging those that disagree as apostates. The hypocrisy shown by many who are leaders in these churches as well as congregants leaves a disgusting aftertaste. The coldness shown to you is precisely why the churches are dying right before our eyes. Are there enough of us who are trying to live the life Jesus explored us to live? Will evangelists to stop putting their faith into a false profits? Will “Christians” find their humanity and humility before it chases us all away?
Yes, this sure describes what happened to my best friend, who was swindled out of his childhood home, through deed fraud on the part of some ” Christian real estate guys” and their mortgage company. This ultimately led to my friend’s death,under suspicious circumstances too. I was so angry when this happened, that if it weren’t for the fact that I fear God enough not to resort to violence and revenge, I’d have killed everyone involved in that scam, I can tell you out that ! I’ve since found out that the behaviors listed in this article are often unique to American ethics and attitudes. American Christianity is now universally despised as a culture ! And this is WHY so many people, who are afraid of giving up the faith, and allegiance to Jesus, now refuse to attend church anymore, and are called ” nones.”. My poor friend let his guard down, believing that those people in this real estate fraud would NEVER cheat him or harm him. He though they were his pals ! All because they were so skilful at conning people, and yeah, they are regular church goers. They have no fear of God punishing them after death,they assume all will be forgiven on their expensive,designer deathbeds ! All America does is crank out the cults, and export them all over the world. I’ve gotten to the point that I hate hearing English spoken. I’m going to leave the country anyway. Had enough ! And now, toxic people in churches who have big bucks want to make the U.S into a theocracy. No way in hell am I staying here. I know where to move to, and I’m out !! Anyone getting involved with real estate deals,need to take their paperwork to a real estate lawyer, before signing anything ! Ditto for any other situation concerning money, business. It’s not being paranoid to protect your house or employment security. Don’t give your trust so blindly. The Native Americans did that, believing the hype spouted by colonizing European visitors, and we ALL know how THAT turned out !
I am so sorry you are hurting so much and for the loss of your child and for the fact that people have not been good to you as your friends. I cannot imagine what it is like to lose your child. I just cannot imagine. I am going to be praying for you and I’ll think of you often. I know relationships are SO very important to God – both our relationship with HIM but also our human relationships with others too here on earth. I pray you will be led to the person or people who are genuinely very interested in you and your life & I bet there is someone out there right now who needs YOU right now too. As a friend. SPECIFICALLY you! I pray God draws you to know this person who is needing YOU right now. I know God will draw y’all to one another. I live in pretty much total isolation these days – the last five straight years, which is unlike any of the rest of my years before now. But I believe it is a time God got me quiet & to myself & away from my former idolatry to be in the position He needed me to be in for whatever it is He will have me do for Him next, whenever that will be & even if it will be done, still isolated & alone as I am now, but still in some way useful in His Kingdom. Yet I do long for a friend too. And I bet someone is waiting to meet me too because they also need a friend in Christ as well. God be with you & give you peace & joy. I have experienced the pure JOY in being very in tune with the Lord & with His Word & with his people. Gratitude of Him & in thanking Him in ALL circumstances brought about this joy before. Whatever I FEEL is still okay because God’s ways, His plans, His will are perfect. It’s not about how I think I’m feeling because it is all about HIM and many times, what I think feels AWFUL & what circumstances I find myself living in may not actually be BAD. They may just be the springboard to the next chapter of my journey on this earth. I pray you will also have the joy of Him inside you too.
How sad is that!
I was baptized and raised in the Methodist Church. Kindness and being generous to those less fortunate was how I was raised.
It never even entered my mind to be less generous to those who didn’t go to the same church.
What has happened to younger people today who now claim I’m not a Christian because I haven’t been “reborn “!!!!!!
When Living in the “Bible Belt” it is assumed that you were saved on a specific date (the day you decided to take Jesus in to your heart), and also that you have a “personal relationship” with Christ. Those of us who were raised as Presbyterians or Methodists for example have been seen by many as not being “real Christians” bc we weren’t “dunked” and instead had a Christening as an infant.
The problem occurs bc some people insist on believing that there is only ONE way to believe and interpret the Bible and their version is THE way. When what we should be doing as Christian’s is learning to be more accepting of other’s views. You don’t have to change your views just bc someone else has different views. Nor should you expect others to change theirs. Fundamentalism in any religion is dangerous. My way
Is the ONLY way is a fast track in that direction and it hurts EVERYONE…not just those that “don’t have the right interpretation”
Hi,I believe you do have to be born again, have jesus give you a new heart which you can feel, only our lord can purify us so we can go home with him when our time here is over
thank you so much for that last part. I have read many stories online of people who throw it all away. I am so glad you didn’t, separating, our Lord ,creator ,and redeemer from people who treated others thoughtlessly. Many things i’ve experienced were hard to defend ,but then i will blurt something with out thinking it through. I’ve had more trouble fromIFB church members overzealous behavior, like claiming to “read people “ and pastors that believe people who are (thoughtful, have things on mind or emotional baggage/ unresolved trauma ) are actually either unsaved or unrepentant sinners and preach at you.
Great comment Sam. I too have grown so disgusted with people who claim to be Christian, but act the same (mostly worse) than folks who have no stated faith at all. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had people call me names on blogs and then see them posting scripture and telling people about their faith. It literally has made me ill at times and we have stopped looking for a new church because of it. Keep loving God and believing in the sacrifice of Christ. Don’t worry about humans as they will almost always let you down.
I have been greatly hurt by my brothers in Christ. My testimony of deliverance from homosexuality has been thrown into my face as a “thank you”. I have His Baptism in the Holy Spirit! But they treat me like dirt — and they claim they love Jesus! Baloney! I have sung for my Lord for 52 years: a rich Anointing upon me! I never take any credit for what God has given me. But pastor called me arrogant! How dumb can he be? I love little children, for 2 years I thought I would some Sunday go upstairs to be with the little ones, just be silly and love them! I went upstairs: got called on the carpet for doing so! Also he said you hold people, Bob. So what! I love them so! You swear, Bob. No I don’t. Tonight I feel like just giving church up. I will never give Jesus up!! I love to write: one of my writings is: “Walking With Jesus will cause You to Adore Him”! How can they say they love Jesus but ignore their hurting brother seated beside them? I am not ashamed of my sin! It was hell! I refused it, and for 38 years I suffered — one day Jesus entered my car as I was driving. I had Christian music going on the radio. And I was crying! When I got home I saw a miracle had happened!!! It felt like I was looking over my shoulder and that stinking homosexual burden was gone! So I wanted to give my testimony, and pastor said no, “They’re not interested, Bob,” he said to me! What the heck is wrong with him? I have always said that I will not walk in religion — but that I will walk with my Jesus who is real! My singing is awesome! And nobody gives a dam? Sure does feel like it. So when I am buying my groceries at Walmart, I sing in full voice to the lady at the cash register! .
Bob.
I’m sure you had good intentions at heart but, people get real funny about older men hanging with little kids when they’re not cleared to do so. Do you have a current working with children/police check? Are you on the kids church roster? Churches do this to protect their smallest members. It doesn’t mean that you would do anything to them, it’s just common sense to have those protocols/boundaries in place.
I can’t comment on the other issue of your testimony as I don’t have enough information on the church and to say anything would be judgemental of me; maybe discuss with him a proper time and place. Also my opinion on the matter of your delivery and testimony are irrelevant.
And singing to the checkout chick can be viewed as a little creepy. No matter how awesome you perceive your singing to be, please stop.
I am saying this in love to you please humbly listen and not take it the wrong way.
Jess
Jess: Thank you. If I had it to do all over again, I would have asked to be with the little ones. I did not realize, I guess. I do know this: most saved people say: “I believe Jesus can do anything!” But they balk at the thought that a homosexual can be delivered by Jesus or anyone else. Any other sin does not bother them. But tell them a gay guy is freed, they do not believe it. I say, that is very sad, indeed. It is hard enough to fight homosexual off of you, it is like pouring gasoline on the person all over again! THAT is pain! You feel like have been royally crapped on, Jess! I definitely forgive them! I know how to give the testimony under the Anointing of the Holy Ghost! More later maybe for you; I do understand: you are not trying to hurt my feelings. Sincerely, you may think of me as OVERCOMING Bob! All praise to Jesus!! I do have more to share.
Hi Everyone,
As I read the responses, I can totally relate as I’ve been hurt in Church at my lowest point. The first was when I was kidnapped and raped at age 18. Me, believing that there are two places I could find peace and comfort was in my house (because I invited God in) and God’s house…..I was told “What happened to you was a punishment from God”, so for years I was “Angry at God”.
When I finally seeked his word for myself and learned how to “forgive”, I lost a duaghter when married, still…….Christians were “so judgemental”however the people that “embraced me” were the “unchurched” through introducing me to therapy with a personal counselor as well a providing emotinal support through checking on me daily or taking care of my home and child when I couldn’t. Something the church DID NOT.
The final draw for me was the fact that I was in Hurricane Katrina, I ended up in Atlanta. I was literally “pimped” as the “littel Katrina evacuee” to obtain donations from the congregation, yet little or no help for me as I resided in a hotel with four kids, working three jobs. My former employer blessed me with a home. It gets worst…….because God had delivered me from so much, I was so greatful. I didn’t have the “money” but I had a “will to servce the least of these”, so I became very active in church, using my gifts for grant writing and program development. To make it worst, my ex spouse found out he was dying from stage 4 cancer, so I was flying between Atlanta and Austin to care for him and offered to more him here to cafe for him. I thought church was “safe” and became vunerable, thinking a certain group of women would help……they helped alright by spreading rumors that were “ungodly”” because I had favor with the pastor.
It gets worst, I left as it was affecting my 4 children and went to another church. There, I let go and started using my gifts again. My ex-spouse got worst, and I became ill and was diagnosis with a rare neurological disease that is fatal without treatment. As a result, I lost my job and had to become self employed becaue no one would hire me due to the amount of sick days I would need. I stopped child support because I wanted him to use the money to care for himself. I would make sure the kids had, and I went without, and shopped at second hand stores for myself. I had to start a serious of infusions for the the disease and it caused me to gain weight quickly. At the new church, the first lady decided to call a “sister talk” meeting. I was “excited” as I said “YES!!!! Finally a time to bond and let my hair down and be real with my struggles”. I got there and soon realize that them meeting with about 40 women was about “me” and the “tight” clothing. NO ONE ASKED HOW I WAS DOING OR CARED TO KNOW ABOUT THE LOAD I WAS CARRING! I was bashed. From that moment on, I became “mean” towards “church folks”. It is was not right, but it was for my survival. I found myself praying more than ever before.
I am telling this story in hopes that “church folks and leaders” will change as the word states “in the last days, there will be a great falling away of the church”. The Saviour is returning soon and satan has “up the anti” in his warfare to keep people from God. I am now an ordained Reverand, alone with my spouse, not a pastor, and both myself and my new spouse work in ministry outside of the church so I don’t have to fight church politics. I pray for those that hurt me in the church and I have forgiven them, however people in church……Christians…….must learn to have discernment.
Sorry for the typos : ). Fast typist. Thought the computer had auto correct.
Rev YO I am so sorry all of that happened to you (((gentlehug))) Yes this article is sadly relevant to so many of us like you who have experienced angry, unsanctified, untransformed-in-thought-life and unsubmitted-to-the-Holy-Spirit people in churches and christian businesses who are supposed to allow Holy Jesus to be magnified in them while they decrease. Yet they insist upon hanging on to their religious family traditions, pride, selfishness, habits or flesh and end up hurting women and other innocent people who deserve the love, mercy, tenderness and assistance of Jesus like yourself. Since this article and your comment was posted, a few years have passed. How have you been, if you don’t mind me asking? Since 2020 I think many tares in churches received a stark wake up call, conviction and, hopefully, a true softening of their hearts to the Holy Spirit during covid. Holy Jesus bless, protect and provide for you dear precious child of God (((gentlehug))).
Bob, I am sorry you were treated that way. When Jesus was asked in Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
I would say to you brother find another church that preaches the Gospel. Our testimony is what Jesus has done in our lives to show we have changed from the old man to the new. That preacher was wrong in my opinion. Sorry, you were treated that way.
Bob I agree with HL Manning’s comment. If you haven’t already, you deserve to be treated with the same love, dignity and affirmation that Jesus Himself gives you through a pastor and church leadership that is honestly interested in submitting themselves to Jesus and not the other way around. I hope since your comment was originally posted that the Holy Spirit has led you to a much better different church. Jesus bless you my friend.
Bob, let me say I am happy for you and I believe your conversion was real. I also think you had the best intentions when you wanted to be around the children, although I also understand why the precautions are there, since the kids must be protected. But that does not mean they would not have done the same with any other unauthorized visitor, no matter their orientation, now or in the past. Every church takes precautions in the nurseries and children’s groups. Homosexuality is not the unpardonable sin, as many people believe. Of course God doesn’t want anyone to stay that way, so it’s up to them to ask Him to change their hearts. And until hearts are changed, still being attracted to members of the same sex is not necessarily sinful unless the person acts on it and lives a sinful lifestyle. Sometimes it takes time to change; not every deliverance happens overnight. But as long as someone is trying and yielding to God, He alone knows their heart. Some people, even Christians, will remain ignorant about certain things, but don’t let it bother you. And singing to the lady at the cash register might just make her day. There’s so much doom and gloom nowadays, it might be just what she needs, as long as it doesn’t interfere with her job or gets her in trouble. I’m sorry you’ve been hurt so badly, but use it to be the person that treats others the way you want to be treated. Those hurtful people are teaching you how NOT to treat others.
❤️🙌🏻
Bob I think that is awesome that you share your spiritual gifts and talents with the world ! Being the salt and the light ! Spreading joy and love ! God is love 1 John 4:8-16 I hope you moved on Bob and found a church that embraces you for your unique qualities! Forget your brutish brothers and sour sisters !Don’t cast your pearl before swine ! If they are judgmental than they are shameful ! Legalism has poisoned many churches it stems from religiosity ! I taught Sunday School for many years and VBS and we had this sour puss leader that would tell us to side hug and other insane rules ! Yes I know you should protect the kids but that’s overkill ! Bob you should join a choir and sing for the Lord !You where a caged bird but now your free ! Broken and beautiful! Psalm51:8 Live for Christ be free to love ! Share your testimony with others that are in darkness in chains ! Wipe the dust from your sandals Bob and move on ! Sing for the Lord and praise and give him glory and you will rise like a phoenix from the ashes ! Hallelujah! Thank you Jesus!
I’m sorry that others made you feel as though you should deny who you are. I truly don’t believe that Christ was against homosexuals and since God created man in his image…that includes the parts of us that are geared towards homosexuality. I don’t believe that God would create humans to have a life of self-hatred and doubt and fear about being accepted as a Christian by HIM or any of the people you attend church with. I hope you find some support and love to help you on your Christian journey. I would encourage you to find a Christian Group for LGB+ people to help you sort out some of your feelings. Don’t let others make you feel wrong or dirty or bad or anything negative bc of who you are. With God’s help, I wish you hope and love in learning to accept the part of you that is crying out for acceptance. I think you will find even more friends when you are honest with yourself.
Again. As a true Christian. Who treats others well. My only hope is in a better afterlife. I hate it here on earth.
I’m so sorry for the way you were treated! I am in the same boat with you, we started a business with some fellow christians who lied, cheated and stole right out from under us! All in the name of doing business ! The end justified the means was their way.
But boy do they look great in church!
I am now an atheist and I talk about christian hypocricy whenever I can.
Consider being an agnostic, rather than atheist. At least then you will leave your heart open for Christ to do His work while still ignoring those who are hypocritical, fake followers.
That’s not what being an agnostic means. It’s about knowing, not believing. There are agnostic believers who say “I don’t know, but I believe.” And there are agnostic atheists who say “I don’t know, and I don’t believe either.” There’s also those on the fence in various uncomfortable positions. I’ve never yet meet an atheist who isn’t also agnostic. The most they’ll say about gnosticism is that the lack of evidence makes the existence of any gods highly improbable. That’s my view.
I had a taste of this situation this month. Fortunately, the financial damage was be repaired. The ‘Christian’, , however takes no responsibility and did the textbook smoke and mirror act, deflection the wrongdoing to my side and said she would pray for my soul. Sad, really.
Ma’am, I suggest you letting her know she should pray for herself first. Good luck!
I’m sorry for your experiences, but usually it is better to hear the other part in the conflict, too.
Generalizing (“the church is…”, “religion is…”) is always wrong.
If you left Christianity because of some bad people, I am sorry to say this, but you never understood Christianity.
It’s important to understand that there is a battle between good and evil for each soul on this Earth. In this battle many are to weak to resist the evil, many are deceived and few prevail. Don’t expect the church to be a nice club, think of it as a hospital where people who admit they are affected by sin in various degrees, come to be treated. We are called to be pure, to be better, not to compare with others.
The atheist hypocrisy is much bigger, since they pretend to be moral and in the same time they support a system of beliefs that has no place for moral. They have no objective standard to judge Christians, so if they would at least be honest, they would shut up.
Ah, found the sanctimonious christian. Pearls before swine?
Well, the poster used some emotionally charged phrases (never understood, hypocrisy, shut up) but I have always agreed with two fundamental points they raised, which I will state as quickly as possible for your consideration, no pressure or judgment intended:
– yes, hospital is a good analogy, human nature is flawed and plenty of ancient documents support this…people can question whether Christianity or some other hospital or no hospital is better.
– C. S. Lewis who went from atheist to Anglican felt that if the universe is just cause and effect, the unfolding of physical laws without creative or guiding actor, then nobody can criticize someone else for any action or belief, since all of it is inevitable and could not be any other way given the initial conditions. They can threaten or coerce if they have strength, but they cannot prove or persuade since that would require some fundamental principles that would not be obtainable from the universe. This summary may be poor but I think you see the point.
You’re not alone. If the issues remains unresolved and things remain unchanged, people will continue to leave the church and Christianity altogether. “Never understood Christianity” my foot!
So according to you, atheists – or any others you define as non-believers, have no rights and should just quietly accept whatever abuse gets heaped upon them. Yeah, that’s really Christian of you. Your charity is showing in a big way.
Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18
Pride and prejudice. People don’t realize Jesus socialized with bull-headed sinners more than those who boasted about how holy and sinless they were. Years with Jesus and one of his disciples was quick to attack with violence and another sold him out for money. We have to look at Jesus and try to be as close to him as possible, not those who pretend to be holy followers of Christ. But instead we tend to wave our privilege and chosen one status in everyone’s face to deflect how awful we ourselves are. Being Christian isn’t about doing good, it’s about doing as little bad as possible and being an example for rather than a hindrance to the fellowship of Jesus. Matthew 7:1-2 says it best in Jesus’ own words:
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
Christians continue to forget one of the most important statements in the entire bible when they do whatever they want with the excuse that they love Jesus who will forgive them. Murder everyone on the street while singing and MEANING “Jesus Loves Me”, they will still never experience eternal life.
Matthew 7:21-23 states “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.”
Actually, that is “mighty Christian of him.” That’s pretty much have I experience practitioners of the faith as of late, especially those who subscribe to the Evangelical denominations: if one is not full on-board with you, you’re about ready to crucify US. :0
Really? This is how you respond to this person? You have just proved his/her point. You would have done better to leave it alone.
Generalizing is always wrong is a generalization.
What keeps coming up about abusive Christians,as they seem to dominate most churches, especially in America,is the toxicity of American culture in general. The rest of the world thinks Americans are crazy. Abuses of all kinds are rampant in the churches. It’s an actual value,almost promoted. Americanism is what’s wrong in these churches. And that’s why so many are leaving. Meaness,cruelty,and greed.
It saddens me that someone would reject the only hope we humans have – Jesus, to save us from ourselves, because somebody in a church, or on a FB page hurt them. If you turn to atheism because flawed humans reject you, please ask yourself these questions: Who was I really following? Did I even genuinely know God? Did I really seek HIM, or did I seek acceptance of men?
If you sought the acceptance of man – inside AND outside of church, it is a guarantee for disappointment. I can attest to that fact, as I write this note. My own church rejects me on a regular basis, but never will I reject my Lord because of their cruelty. If you know God genuinely, if you really understood who He is, what that incredible sacrifice that Jesus allowed Himself to go through is all about, you could not have rejected it. Ask God to show you the REAL truth and not some religiously flawed version of it. He will. He did that for me, when I was in a very dark place.
We humans are all in the same boat. Some just don’t realize that, yet. I know I’m flawed and need my Savior. Most don’t think they have flaws, and only the other guy does. That’s why they’re cruel and reject you. They really DO think they’ve got it all together , and you don’t. But just don’t let their stupidity destroy your hope in the only One who can save you – and all of us, and that is Jesus. Please – reconsider rejecting God because of some human.
Thank you for your post! I was encouraged by it, but am curious why your church members are rejecting you. I feel the same about many of the members in my own church. I don’t think they even believe I’m really saved because I don’t always live up to certain standards and MAYBE don’t quite fit the description of a truly born again believer. Could you give me your story on your experience of rejection? Thank you, Diana
Good morning all. I agree with you my sister. Our walk on this earth is a walk of faith. Sometimes our faith gets tested and tried at all costs and the devil is definitely cashing in on if we as Christians allow him to control us through our way of thinking, our behaviours towards fellow saints and the man on the street. But that doesn’t mean we should reject the one person who taught us what love is. Who demonstrated to us how to love, when to love and to whom we must share our love with, Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour who willing was crucified for us. He reconciled us to Pappa God, for us to stand in front of God without a sense of guilt and condemnation. I know like all of you here I have been mistreated, rejected, abused verbally, cheated and robbed also by fellow saints, and people of the world too and have become sad, angry, confused and all, but that does not justify me to run away from Pappa God because of what others did. No one has paid the price for me on the cross except Jesus who loved me enough to give Himself up for me and He alone has made me righteous. Pls I want all of you to realise this, this is not the hour for us to run away from our faith and the Word but for us to live the Word. Doesn’t matter what others do or say to us. Keep reminding yourselves who you are and where you are going to. God is not interested in our beginning or the end because He knows that already,but His interest is in our journey towards the end and how we get there. Ask yourself before any decisions of becoming anything less than a child of God. Who is a Christian, a Christian is not someone who calls himself a Christian or who does things contrary to the Word of God. But it is a person who is called the adopted son of Abba Father, the one who lives a Christ like life. What does it mean to be born again. To live, think and reason like Christ. Its the pulsating life of Christ in humanity. It’s an extraordinary life beyond what the eye can see. a life of the miraculous. Don’t let others steal your joy, your blessings and your purpose, calling and plan that God has for you. You are the voice crying in the wilderness, the one who should go out into the field that was already bought and bring back the captives into the captivity of Christ. We are at the last of last hours to win back the lost for Christ even our fellow brothers and sisters whose eyes and ears that has been blinded not to hear and see. Even them cause silently they are crying in their bossoms. Its for us to help them. Pls Jesus is coming very soon there’s no more time for us to leak our own wounds, but to dry our tears ourselves cause He has done it already two thousand years ago and has given us the power and authority to do it ourselves in this our by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Walk in the newness of your calling in Christ as a new man a new specie. Its not people we serve but God and when we serve people we do it with love, care and humility. Shalom Shalom. Peace and blessings remain in your houses…mwhaaaaaa
Amen!!! All the way. Others have stepped all over me in their sinful attitudes.
I’m a gentle, kind, caring, sensitive person. So, I remember to make allowances for people hurting my feelings.
Some people have NOT been transformed. Their hearts are just as cold as the day they met Jesus.
I find you can’t apologize to some either if their is a misunderstanding either.
Don’t even think of trying to have a two way conversation about something that happened!!
But, still, and yet..
I can’t give up!!!
Why because They Are Human as I am.
God will put them in Check!!!
I’m not giving up on the BEST THING I EVER HAD.
PERIOD.
I suggest you remember they are flesh too. No excuses. But, there are still good believers out there that are loving and kind.
Like you.
The evil one wants you to quit.
That means you are saying everything you once said was true is a LIE.
Now, how are you any better than those people who are sinning against you.
Yes, they need a Spanking. Let Jesus do it. If you got an ought, go to the person, and take someone HUMBLY if it requires another person.
If they act like an idiot, shake the dust of your feet, and treat Them like and infidel( because they apparently have not changed) and Take your peace.
But, Do not…Give up Your Faith in Jesus!!!
This is unrealistic, and actual gaslighting. If WE…are the light, then WHY is the world so dark. We are those who are commissioned to go into the hedges and highways and compel them to come. Why on earth should someone follow anyone who keeps a “get outta jail free card in their pocket.” ” Uhm don’t look at us, we’re fallible. Follow HIM. But YOU were sent to tell me of him. Bad witness all the way around. Don’t wear His Name. Rather where a shirt that says…” I’m flawed and need a Savior So don’t follow me…I’m lost!”
Please don,t turn your back on God. Sadly too many churchgoers have gotten the wrong ideas about Christianity and their behavior is shameful! I worship at home and i spend time talking God,s ear off . Thankfully , he doesn’t mind me being a chatterbox. You Don,t have to go go church to be a Christian. It,s about your personal relationship with him and following his examples.
I agree the whole point is to have a personal relationship with God. People will always disappoint, but God never will. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Our family also worships at home and spends time in our bibles and have a group of kind good hearted friends. Jesus is saddened by the way many church goers are treating eachother..they end up pushing those away whom they are trying to bring in (they are blind to this). There are still good churches and good people in all churches, but yes there are also many wolves in sheep’s clothing and often it is not those accused..it often are those high up in the church. Prayers for finding where it is he is calling you and also a cleansing of the corruption within the church.
I am an atheist nothing hates like Christians ie Orlando reply to the shooting of the lgbt community
A long while ago a member of my family tried to take his own life. Now, I say member of our family not because I am ashamed of him I say that because I believe its not my right to point him out also I know how mean people can be.
When we found out why he tried to take his own life it opened my eyes to what gay people go through and the fear of acceptance among people in the world even their own family. He though that we would hate him because he is gay. We were raised Catholic but at the same time we were also raised with morals knowing the difference between right and wrong and to disown him or dislike him just because hes gay would be wrong. I dont care what the bible says. I love him and my faith tells me God does loves him too. I dont need a book to tell me what I already know.
I was honestly relieved he was ok and he was able to unburden himself of his fear. Happy to report hes doing good and im very, very happy for him.
God bless you richly, Jenny. Yes it is wrong to be against gay people. Love them! Share Jesus with him. I was gay! Jesus set me free! It took 38 years to get there. You see, now I know that nobody is born homosexual! It does feel that way, it sure does. But that is a deceptive lie from satan! I have a remarkable testimony! I was born-again by Jesus — then I received God’s baptism in the Holy Spirit! I overcame by Him! To our Lord be all the praise! You can contact me at here. — Love Bob
so true. Jesus would be seen as “radical” these days. When being radical to them (the christian listed above in the article) is literally being understanding and kind to your friend.
The honest truth is, Christians are very dangerous to our earth and society. They are anti science and anti reason. Of all the spiteful, angry people I have met in my life, Christians are always the worst. To quote Dr House, if you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people. Being raised into blind faith, from birth is no gift, it is a curse. Turning your eyes away from the wonder of this vast and incredible universe for a silly, ancient dogma is so shortsighted and again, dangerous. Our earth needs smart, compassionate, scientific and loving people to take the reigns and bring us back on course for a just and verdant future.
I was a christian and loyal church member for 35 years. Then I was diagnosed with aggressive prostate cancer, need I say more? Fortunately I have an enquiring mind and in my search for the best way to live in order to survive for as long as possible, I learnt that in any belief system one can get sidelined into dead ends, and in the process delay recovery. Going to church, and being abused was stealing my life from me.
The cancer is still with me, but I now know that I will die with the cancer, not of it. Needless to say, I am happy and healthy now, and helping others in ways that were not possible at church.
Not always true. This is an assumption made by those having met a few closed minded believers. I’m a believer and for that reason, I’m not threatened by science or psychology.
We aren’t meant to be lobotomized in our thinking to follow Christ.
I find my faith in Him gives the right place to all things. You can’t make broad statements against any group of people and claim you are intelligent either.
It’s not wise. There are people on all sides spouting and spilling negativity. Be It beyond me to decide who doesn’t deserve to live on this Earth.
I agree with you completely!
I agree with you completely jjc.
I agree with you completly! You said it all for me! Thank you!
Well that was a pretty horrible and mean comment. Christian’s have had people of all sorts around the world. We’re just people just like you. Our faith is just believing the unseen . It is glorious. But remember not every president was a good president. And there are times when we are labeled something as good then there are those bad days that we have . And people like you gather that as evidence to persecute a person amongst others and as a whole responsible for something they have never experienced. If you are into the universe and science you probably shouldn’t be so concerned with someone’s else’s faith and beliefs and find evidence that could support your bias opinions. Anyways I love you my brother and God loves you too.
It truly saddens me to hear people talk about being “healed” from their homosexuality. Is it that somehow GOD made a mistake when he made you? Or did you begin to believe it was wrong bc others INTERPRETED it to be wrong?? And if so, aren’t they passing judgement?
We are who we are meant to be. Yes there are things that we can change about ourselves, but our inherent identity isn’t one of them. Or at least it shouldn’t be.
Jesus wanted us to love each other as MUCH as we love ourselves. Despising yourself bc of your sexual identity doesn’t seem to fit here. How can you claim to love something that you have allowed yourself to define as dirty, wrong, and sinful, essentially labeling yourself the same. Learn to love yourself as He loves you.
And yes, you were born that way!! 🥳
Wow…Unfortunately, I can totally relate. The worst abuse I suffered was from christains. I have done a lot of research since and have found that yes, the main stream churches are filled with non followers, like masons, witches and carnal christains who just want to soe and gossip , just like the world. I worked with a couple “so called christains”, whom it took over a year for them to finally confess they were. I wouldn’t have guessed that they were. I saw their weakness in testifying, and so would duck them into a room at the school where we worked to pray with them. It was only in the presence of God, I would see their tears. Their lives were a mess, not from serving Christ but from no serving Christ. I always still try to lead these “church goers” not church doers, into a closer relationship with Jesus. They don’t even see or understand that talking about their church is more revelant than their relationship with Christ. How sad! Yes, they caused me a lot of harm, so much so that I was banned from many churches and had to leave my city. The rumors were so bad, and it spread to my work place. I helped the poor around me, took in the homeless, spread food around to group homes, prayed for all who were burdened, but they were not interested in knowing how God was using me, they were full of jealousy, greed and hatred for me. God just blessed me all the more. Jesus was so good to me and I had many testimonies which I shared with co-workers and many people in my end of the city. When I left the “so called church”. Not one person called me . My husband whom I left was a pastor and he was abusive in all ways. He got worse when I tried to leave, but I got away. The “church” calls him a godly man, give me a break! So , yea, we are in the last days for sure, and I am glad that I have been taken out of the “so called church”. It’s a lonely, but blessed life, and I have seen answers to prayer that most would not believe. I have seen many great answers to prayer especially for the unbelievers whom have allowed me to pray for them. I have seen God’s great love and mercy for the unsaved. I am always amazed of His great Love for the world in which I live. Love is the Greatest!
This is impossible based on the teachings of Scripture!!! Phil.1:6 (and many others)
Please don’t allow people to stop you from believing in God. God is still as real AFTER you’re been mistreated by people, as He was before; their ignorance doesn’t stop God from existing. We get in trouble when we keep our eyes on people, who are fallible, instead of on God, who is not. You knew God was real at some point and yet you’ve allowed some dishonest person to rob you of your belief in God. Why change your mind because of some fake Christian, who probably isn’t a real Christian at all, but only calls himself one? People have been known to do that, calling themselves Christian just to get an edge while they do shady dealings . It’s the devil that wanted to trip you up and get you to doubt Gods existence, and he’s succeeded. You fell for it, hook, line and sinker. He sent you someone who only pretended to be a Christian, to steal from you and lie to you, but don’t let him win. The devil HATES you. and there’s nothing he’d like more than to see you turn away from God. It’s not too late to turn back to God, as long as you still have breath in your body. *And for anyone else who is reading these comments, and considers themself an atheist or agnostic, please read “A Case for Christ “ (I think that’s the name) written by Lee Strobel, a former atheist who was a journalist for a famous Chicago newspaper, who was given an assignment by his boss to write an article on “why God doesn’t exist”. He went into it fully expecting to have so much evidence that God doesn’t exist, but instead found so much evidence FOR God, and Jesus Christ, including from historical secular records kept since the time of Jesus on the earth, with hundreds of witnesses to the accuracy of the accounts of Jesus as told in the Bible. He, a staunch atheist all his life, had unintentionally gathered so much evidence for the existence of God, and of Jesus, from scholars and even scientists who were once atheist themselves, but had changed their minds, and from historical records, that he could no longer deny it, and became a Christian shortly after that. To this day, he is a Christian minister who has traveled the world and all across America to tell people about Jesus*
Cj I am so sorry that happened to you (((hug)))
It’s been a few years since this article came out and you posted your comment. I don’t even know if you will ever see this. But if you do, I just want you to know that someone who Jesus saved to become born again Holy Spirit filled on 2/19/2003 cares about you.
How have you been?
That’s understandable for you to feel that way, and choose the path of atheism. I might have gone that way myself, but, I’m used to having God, as I was a former pagan before my converting to Jesus. So I’m not able to go back to my old beliefs. This is more beneficial for those who caused my best friend’s death, than it is for me. The legal system is a joke, it works mostly for the wealthy. I STILL will go after them legally. I’d have preferred the Russian way of vengeance, it would have felt better personally,lol. Anyone who is in your position, I feel for you. Most churches are toxic, and focus on money and possessions, instead of character and mental health. Abusive people get a free pass, there’s lots of injustice in churches, especially where survivors of abuse are concerned. The perps are supported,over the victims ! After seeing this for years, and hearing other people’s stories, I’m so done ! No more church,ever ! At least in America. And another thing I observed, is how if you are facing tragedy, like the death or disability of your loved one, you are ignored, or criticized for being sad, left to flounder in the matter of handling the legal issues. No compassion expressed. The ONLY ones who are noticed are if they are wealthy. They matter. If you’re single, or an orphan, or have a low- paying job, you simply don’t count, and you’re a waste of space. After years of all that, it was great to drop church. Especially American ones. Sundays are for coffee and the paper. While not atheistic, my belief is now private, and one- on – one. I’m in a better place, emotionally and spiritually. Yeah, I read the Bible, and listen to it read on You Tube. I pray daily. People need our praying for them. No more ” Christian culture” though !
My heart was hurting when I read what you wrote. I truly hope you can email me back, because many things of what you said, is happening to me. I don’t want to go around judging anyone, I do need to know if I am being bullied by the church or not.
I hope you respond to me ASAP.
Thank you!
In Christ,
MaryAnne
Well, yes, you’re being bullied. You aren’t imagining things. It’s a real problem in churches, it seems to be encouraged too. And if you don’t fit the ” American family stereotype, married, upper-class, a homeowner,with good job, two cars , kids, grandkids- you just not wanted ! Oh, they’ll be glad to take your tithes or offerings, always. But, they don’t want YOU. I loathe American Christianity ! Most bad things that happened to me, are from the time I began church attendance. I really believe now, that the twisted ethics of Old Europe, those Pilgrims, Puritans and Columbus and his crimes against humanity, are the reason that churches here are so awful. Because no one questions all those things they did, they are worshipped, practically. Slavery and genocide are just fine. Their attitudes from the 1500’s are still passed down in preaching, in family life. Anyone with time to research this will see this for themselves. If you wonder why people are so nasty, it comes ultimately from history,as well as crazy family dynamics. Lots of people stay in church out of fear, like God will kill them if they leave. I did hear some preacher’s say that would happen to those who refuse to come back. Like a logging truck would clip their car,or something. Or a sudden heart attack. Loved ones killed. More people would quit going to church, but only stay out of fear. It’s better to still keep your faith, but not go to church anymore- depending on what you feel you can handle. Each situation is different. It almost feels like I have to wait until I’m overseas, before going to a church again.
I’m so very sorry for your pain. My heart breaks for you. These things should not happen! Oh, that we would all sincerely follow the teachings of Jesus. GOD IS LOVE, and he wishes that we all love each other with His love.
We have to be careful to operate in his love. To do this, we must remain connected to him. Pray constantly, be in fellowship with God daily, and meditate on his word, so that it can shape our lives and characters. Because humans are flawed, some more than others, depending on what has been learned and experienced though out life; also the kinds of sin and wounds we have been exposed to, which determine gateways that give access for evil to dwell in us.
We have people at all levels in the church. None are perfect, even those that think we are. All of us are in process of change and the extent of our submission to God determines the character of the person, especially those with more of a bend toward evil in our character. We all have missed it at one time our another, even the best of us. The key is humility and we can only achieve humility through our relationship with and submission to God. If we are not submitting to God, being “true salt” cannot be accomplished especially for those of us that for some reason or another learned the wrong way to treat people.
Warning: There are also those that Jesus calls “wolves in sheep’s clothing” lets not forget that evil in lurking everywhere to discourage the followers of Jesus and to prey upon the innocent. Do you not think that satan does not have his followers too? That have their assignments as well to infiltrate the church and cause the type of pain you have described? Jesus warns us to be gentle as doves yet wise as serpents! We have to be careful to pray about everything and ask God to give us discernment about everything and everyone we get involved with. Jesus said he would give us his spirit to guide us into all truth. He will! We should not make a move until we feel his peace in every situation. That really requires a level of intimacy with God that we can have if we only avail ourselves to him. He’s ready for this level of intimacy with us any time we are willing to go there with him.
God is not to blame. Please, Please don’t give up on God because of the plan the enemy worked against your life. Yes, he also has a plan for our life and will gain the advantage when we do not use the weapons of our warfare, which are unceasing prayer, worship and the word of God both as an offensive and defensive weapon. We need to understand and be aware that we are in a war. Satan and his demons hate the followers of Jesus and plan and carry out strategies against us! We need to be prepared for the attacks of the enemy by knowing our God through prayer and hanging out with him so that he can do his work in us and so that he can let us know the things we need to know about ourselves and our lives; and reading and meditating and getting to know his word so that when things come up that are against us (attacks) we can quote his word and remind ourselves and the enemy of his promises to deliver us from our circumstances, and give us peace when we are in turmoil. We will see the salvation of our God!
Please, Please don’t give up on God because of satan’s strategy against your life! God loves you! Let him love you, heal your wounds, fill you with his spirit, help you and bless you. So that you can live in his peace and his joy! There are good people out there that are Christians. People that love God and are sincere in our love for God and others, no we are not perfect and our actions will not always reflect love, we all have our bad days. I know I do. I know that my behavior is not always a perfect reflection of the ways God would have me act. Sometimes I’m downright cranky! But as soon as I ask God to forgive me and help me do better, and he does, when I submit my bad attitudes to him every time. Of course, that’s not the type of evil you are talking about. When you find that kind of evil, go another way, God will lead you., And know that when bad things happen to you God has got your back, he will work all things together for your good! Trust that! He will help you find a good church because he does want good healthy fellowship for you with other believers.
Please don’t give up on God or the Church because there is good ministry within the Church for you, but make your relationship with God your first concern and he will lead you into good relationships.
God Bless you,
In His Love,
Your sister in Christ.
I am in the same boat have been rejected by the church of England because I was relucted to love a fellow beliver because he was pushing me to go to him. I house share with a non christetn but we live in peace.I have adult children who have health isures so need the support from me which obviously is gods will. I feel so hurt that the church thinks that I should a brother first before duty to family and have got acused of not loveing Christ which is unfair I know I am a sinner and need a savouir and I have no wish on turning my back on him.he came so we all can live.
Thank you for your encouraging and uplifting words. At times it is much easier to see the positive side when you are not involved in the situation. My husband pretended to be a Christian while we dated, and boy did I fall for it! He reeled me in good. I’m sure there were times when he got home after a date with me and had a great laugh at how easy it was too fool me!!! From the day of our wedding he has been nothing but mean, selfish, and evil towards me. He spiritually, emotionally and financially abuses me. I am ready to give up. I told God I have no hope left.
Hi Susan-
There is always hope with GOD’s love. I am sorry to hear that you are dealing with a non-believer in your husband. Since he does not believe it makes it easier for him to be abusive, he fears no repercussions to his horrific behavior. In the majority of situations working through a marriage is the right choice, but not always.
Please take care of yourself, I can hear the sadness in your words and no one deserves to be treated badly. Personally, I am in a very similar situation but am making plans to get out and go on with my life. After going to marriage counseling by myself the counselor actually advised me to move on.
Check into your options, I know many women in our situations feel they have no way out, but there always is one. Consider asking your husband to go to a counselor with you. If he refuses, then you will always know that you tried your best to make it work. You can always go see on by yourself too.
You deserve happiness and I will pray for you every day. May GOD bless and keep your spirituality intact. I pray that very soon, you are emotionally free from the turmoil that currently exists and that joy surrounds you.
Best wishes!
Well, yes, you’re being bullied. You aren’t imagining things. It’s a real problem in churches, it seems to be encouraged too. And if you don’t fit the ” American family stereotype, married, upper-class, a homeowner,with good job, two cars , kids, grandkids- you just not wanted ! Oh, they’ll be glad to take your tithes or offerings, always. But, they don’t want YOU. I loathe American Christianity ! Most bad things that happened to me, are from the time I began church attendance. I really believe now, that the twisted ethics of Old Europe, those Pilgrims, Puritans and Columbus and his crimes against humanity, are the reason that churches here are so awful. Because no one questions all those things they did, they are worshipped, practically. Slavery and genocide are just fine. Their attitudes from the 1500’s are still passed down in preaching, in family life. Anyone with time to research this will see this for themselves. If you wonder why people are so nasty, it comes ultimately from history,as well as crazy family dynamics. Lots of people stay in church out of fear, like God will kill them if they leave. I did hear some preacher’s say that would happen to those who refuse to come back. Like a logging truck would clip their car,or something. Or a sudden heart attack. Loved ones killed. More people would quit going to church, but only stay out of fear. It’s better to still keep your faith, but not go to church anymore- depending on what you feel you can handle. Each situation is different. It almost feels like I have to wait until I’m overseas, before going to a church again.
I have heard of that happening. So much so, that I ruled out marrying ever. It’s rare to see people who are in a happy marriage. Whether in the world of unbelievers or the church. It spooked me, so I feel for you ! If this guy has cheated on you, that’s your chance to escape this marriage,if that’s what you want to do. Every time I considered marriage, I got cold feet. I’m single, and though not free to play the field like a typical American, I don’t regret it. I get no sex, of course, but there’s no one in my life at home abusing me either.
Amen, Sister
I wasn’t raised within a religious family either. I have been described by other people while I was growing up as being very altruistic. My dad and aunts and uncles where raised Catholics. Every single one of them rejected that religion as they reached their teens. My family are the most loving generous and humble people I have ever known. As I got out into the world myself,I was stunned by how petty and (for lack of a better word.)?evil the majority of the population is. When I was a child I thought all families where like mine,but they are not. I’m X generation and my older extended family are baby boomers. I think the turmoil of the sixties created a very beautiful and selfless generation. I try to cherish the time I have with these dearly loved relatives and their friends because they are fast disappearing. I believe that we all have souls and am not an atheist.I mention this because Christians that I have met and talked with in my lifetime immediately assume I am because i’m not a christian. I believe that in the not too distant future, we will move away from organized religion and mankind will benefit greatly from that spiritual exodus. Maybe then my family will be everybody’s family.
Christianity was created by the Romans as a way of controlling the people, rejecting Christianity does not make you an atheist if you believe in G-d or a higher power, it shows you can see thru the bs. So I guess if you the only way to G- d is thru jesus then Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and others, are they going to hell?
The Romans fed Christians to the lions. Christianity came out of the Jewish sector of the Middle East and was part of the Jewish religion . Even Jews denounced Christ as the true son of god and Christ was rejected by them.
Christianity took off in the Roman empire as the Roman empire started to decline. Ordered Christianity became a way of still living an ordered life in the face of the chaos and filled a power vacuum of sorts.
Christianity started out as Jewish but changed when it became Greek and Roman. It changed again with Thomas Aquinas. It changed again during the Reformation. It changed again in the United States. It changed again in the sixties. It is different now then it was 30 years ago.
One thought I have on this matter is that we are all on separate journeys. Do not look for approval from people, look to God. Build a strong relationship with the heavenly Father. Listen to Him. Another thought is that if you are looking to people for approval you are sinning also as you are looking to be held high in the eyes of others. Look to God. Yet another of my many thoughts on this matter is that if the worshippers are not able to fulfill your expectations of what they should be doing for God, then you should endeavor to become a leader in the earthly church and help them find their way to our Saviour. You can’t become the Pope, but you can do small things leading to greater opportunities to be a positive force for good. You could save many souls. Do not give in to your human frustration and turn away from God because of people. God will turn away from you. One final thought is this question – How can you know what people think of you? Most people would never tell their opinion of you if it is not good. As for the person who said two Christian business associates stole from them, do not judge all Christians by those two. I pray that God will bless all who are feeling this variety of doubt and pain. May He bring you peace and comfort.
I feel badly for what you are going through or have been through. Jesus said the foot steps of a good man is ordered by the Lord. I don’t think the world knows the definition of a Christian anymore. So if someone says they are a Christian does that mean they are A Christian? What I am seeing is a generation that would not know Christ if he walked up on them. The person that wrote these comments about angry Christians I believe was angry their own self. Rather than having a relationship with people we need to have a great relationship with Christ not with our mouth but with our hearts. Because Christians have failed to judge sin they just become content to live in it rather than separating theirselves from it they become a part of it. What the world considered a Christian is the very opposite according to Scripture. Taking the scriptures out of content we live by the Golden Rule and we fall short of that. Liberals in our government has taking up arms against Christianity. Our president says he’s a Christian however does the very things that no Christian should ever do. What God tells us is a sin or an abomination Obama tells us remember the golden rule. We will not be judged by the Golden Rule however man will be judged by his actions upon what he does and does not do. According to the Word of God. Putting the blame on others only leads us in despair but when we turn to God in prayer and fasting there is always an answer. While there is so many living in sin God himself will present a glorious Church without spot without blemish it will be holy and those that want to be apart of the church will separate themselves from the world come out from among them and be separate saith the Lord. That doesn’t mean that we should ignore them but we should live an example that makes them want what we have by being kind to one another. I hope all works out for you God bless will be praying for you and your child. People let us down but God never fails.
Don’t give up on Jesus. Please! You won’t be better off without Him. He loves you so much!
I’d tell anyone who wants to give up on Jesus and dump him, that I can’t blame you. Churches suck,for the most part. It makes sense,given the era we are living in, to keep Jesus, but cut out church going. If it comes down to that choice, it’s a serious mistake to walk away from Jesus, but if you’re being bullied, abused or swindled in church, just don’t go anymore.
This is a reply to the article, not others comments. Personally, I feel it is highly probable that there is a spiritual dimension and that g-d exists. I also feel it is extremely unlikely any religion is accurate. With that said, I wanted to say that I thought this article made the world a little better.
Why are Christians allowed to rape women and children just because they are considered property? Does God really think that? Or was that added by the men who wrote the bible? I think I speak for all victims when I say that no person should be called property and treated as such. A lot of us suffer from being abused and exploited because of the fact that we are suppose to be property to the man. At least, that is what the church enforces. I of course would never follow the church again now that I am an adult. But, it just sucks to have to deal with trauma because of this.
Christians are not allowed to rape women and children and they are not considered property. God loves every single person and is not a respecter of persons. He loves us all equally. What kind of church did you go to the “enforced” this kind of twisted activities? I have been in church my entire life and I have never witnessed anything like this, but am very sorry that you did and have had to live with this kind of abuse.
You are a Christian that God has called, your name is one written in the Lambs book, how do I know? Because by their fruit you will know them. Your wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit. I’m sorry for your pain I too have had much pain and continue to get hurt by … So called Christians… But remember it’s Jesus we are to follow and go to for our pain and suffering. We are to trust the Lord. Go to Him for strength and trust, for it is YOUR Christian walk… People always fall short. Remember He will hold your right hand and not let go. Read Isaiah 41. Trust and be strong in the Lord who has called you and go out and change the world. You were called.
I worship at home because of the behavior of churchgoers. I got fed up with being welcomed as a visitor then I become a mission / charity case in order for them to score points with God. I follow ,or at least try hard, to follow the examples of Jesus with my conduct. When I goof up, which I do, I pick myself up and start over.
Patty there are no bad Christians that would be impossible if you think about it a Christian is to be christ-like so how could that be bad. That’s number one. Number 2 not going to church can be harmful to you not to them this is the problem with many Christians claiming they can serve God at home rather than going to the house of God it’s not a social service you are doing when you go to Church you don’t go for hypocrites they are not Christians they are wolves in sheep clothing your example of worship is always needed. The Apostle Paul charged you forsake not assembling of yourselves together and even the more as you see the last days approach. There are strength in numbers and it could be your example of doing what is right to change the mind of one soul. I don’t know what kind of a church you go but if you are unhappy maybe God is trying to lead you to a better place keep searching. But whatever you do I pray the best for you find a good church I myself go to an Apostolic Pentecostal Church and have for years. There’s always a great spirit of worship and love for one another lifting up the name of the Lord Jesus Christ he is worthy and deserves Our Praise whether we are at home or in the house of God. May God bless and I hope you find peace in the house of the Lord. Don’t let Hippocrates or how you put it someone trying to achieve brownie points God knows who’s telling truth. Remember the lady that only gave her little penny and the Lord said she gave more than you all. The reason was she gave all she had so give it your all and give your all to Christ.
I don’t no where you live, but from where I am, I never meet a mean Christian. Jesus talked, the other night about” Why are people leaving my churches.
We’ll Churches have gotten to political. Those with money seem to be the ones that take up the priests time, and the poor are left to fend for themselves. He spoke about how priest are to deal with everyone equally.
The Lord loves small, people that are small, by that I mean people who have nothing, people that have nothing to loose, no money, no car, no house.
Usually the Christians that can buy everything, take offense to the Priest spending time with the poor.
The Church has become a political playing field, where the wealthy who donate large sums, begin to believe they own the Church and the priest, then the poor get rejected by the Priest, and leave. Often enough by words saying, you don’t belong here, go someplace else. The poor are rejected, even by the Priest and leave. Remember what he said, “The meek shall inherit the earth while the rich will go away empty.
Some of the meanest people I’ve known were Christians!
The meanest people aren’t.
I grew up believing in the goodness of Christians and the Church. I accepted Christ as my savior from that day on god planted a song in my heart about comfort and how he is always with me. years of mental illness young widowhood and being thrown out of churches because mental illness can be so ugly that little song implanted by god cannot be extinguished. It is gods way of telling me that I don’t need judge mental churches to let me know he is still with me. God did not do this to you man did. Let the song play on in your heart go on believing in god. Like u I hope I never have to go back to church
The religious right in America has always embraced a philosophy based on bullying, pandering, pride, concealing weakness & justifying dangerous, aggressive ignorance towards equity, science, truth and reason. That largely explains how a dishonorable, vulgar, crackpot criminal like Donald Trump could get elected. The whacko fringe Evangelical lunatics have decided that this loathsome creature should serve as their Dark Lord. He was chosen by their god to fulfill their mission of cruelty. He exonerates them from accountability for their dull witted bigotries. Some of you christians are starting to recognize the venom you have injected into American culture. Good. If so, then vote the bum out in 2020. We are a democracy, not a theocracy. Prayers & religious hokum belong in church, not in government.
It has been the non religious left who has been the meanest to me.
May God bless u and keep you.And dont give up. God is on your side. He will never leave you.
I am very sorry you have experienced this with Christ followers. Please forgive us. It breaks my heart to read this and I have no doubt that there are those who I may have treated similarly, thank you for bringing this to my/our attention.
This makes me feel the need to seek forgiveness not only from you, but from God and to ask Him to help me walk in a way that is more Christ like.
May the Lord bless you and your child, He truly loves you!
I am so sorry that you have experienced this in the church. You are not alone. All I can say is this: what happens in church is not automatically God. Please don’t judge Christ on nasty people that lack understanding of who Christ really is. He deeply loves you. The shortest scripture in the bible is “Jesus wept”. Why did Jesus weep? Because his followers lacked real understanding of his true nature. Be angry at the sin, but forgive the sinner. But please do not turn your back on Christ. Those people will be judged by Christ in the end. You will be judged by Christ. Christ said, “If you do not forgive others, then you will not be forgiven.” I hope that you can see past their blindness and unkindness. God loves you and Christ died for you.
I don’t think he cares about your worthless opinions!
Read a good American Indian book and leave us alone!
I don’t force my religion on you your reply is an act of bullying, a disgrace and shows the exact disrespect we have learned to ignore!
I couldn’t have said it better, except, I just don’t believe in Christianity what so ever! I don’t hate those that do, unless they stand in my way!
OSAS (Once saved always saved) is a doctrine of demons spread all across North American churches that effectively removed the fear of God.
Look up Fear of God and see how many times and how critical it is.
The church is far from perfect but it’s even worse when good people leave. The people who miss out on you not being at church are the people in your shoes. Instead of having you welcome them, they have to deal with the same fakes that you did. The cycle continues.
I agree with your comments totally. I have found that people who attend church often are the absolute opposite of what is taught in scripture…Christ only gave one commandment that is written in the Bible..”a new commandment I give you, that you LOVE one another, by this shall all men know that you are my disciples” and again in scripture it is written that “love is the fulfillment of the law.” Love for our fellow man regardless of who they are is what we are supposed to be about. That doesn’t mean that we always agree with them or their lifestyles, but it does mean that we treat them with kindness honor and respect..like the good Samaritan, he didn’t ask the man what he believed before helping him, and neither should we..the time may come for that if asked…but at any rate, they will be drawn to the person who loves them as they are…perhaps wanting to know why we are this way.
I am a Preacher’s kid, 66 years old now. I have experienced things like you have, there were times when I didn’t go to church because I felt if I got hurt one more time, I might lose my faith and end up in hell. I have been so low in faith that I went knocking on Preacher’s doors looking for help and found no help, experienced even more hurt and insult. But God kept me. I am still a believer. I hope that you are still a believer in Jesus, in the Holy Bible which is God’s Word to us, in the Holy Ghost that Jesus left as our Comforter and as a Down Payment. I go to church, I haven’t found a church yet that fully lines up with my beliefs or where I feel I can openly discuss any differing beliefs. But I know that Jesus is my Savior and I am to walk in his ways always and to read his word and talk to him daily until the time comes that he returns and I see him face face and he sets up his Kingdom. Hold on to your faith! There is 1 God, 1 faith, 1 body of Christ. Even though there are many differences here, when He comes let us be known to Jesus and be welcomed and not be told, sorry I never knew you.
Stick to Jesus!
Please remember that Jesus is a Personal Savior & your relationship with Him is worth more than the sins of others. Why not show others how to live for Him instead of giving up? Don’t let others cause you to lose out on a relationship with Him!!
Yes, this sure describes what happened to my best friend, who was swindled out of his childhood home, through deed fraud on the part of some ” Christian real estate guys” and their mortgage company. This ultimately led to my friend’s death,under suspicious circumstances too. I was so angry when this happened, that if it weren’t for the fact that I fear God enough not to resort to violence and revenge, I’d have killed everyone involved in that scam, I can tell you out that ! I’ve since found out that the behaviors listed in this article are often unique to American ethics and attitudes. American Christianity is now universally despised as a culture ! And this is WHY so many people, who are afraid of giving up the faith, and allegiance to Jesus, now refuse to attend church anymore, and are called ” nones.”. My poor friend let his guard down, believing that those people in this real estate fraud would NEVER cheat him or harm him. He though they were his pals ! All because they were so skilful at conning people, and yeah, they are regular church goers. They have no fear of God punishing them after death,they assume all will be forgiven on their expensive,designer deathbeds ! All America does is crank out the cults, and export them all over the world. I’ve gotten to the point that I hate hearing English spoken. I’m going to leave the country anyway. Had enough ! And now, toxic people in churches who have big bucks want to make the U.S into a theocracy. No way in hell am I staying here. I know where to move to, and I’m out !! Anyone getting involved with real estate deals,need to take their paperwork to a real estate lawyer, before signing anything ! Ditto for any other situation concerning money, business. It’s not being paranoid to protect your house or employment security. Don’t give your trust so blindly. The Native Americans did that, believing the hype spouted by colonizing European visitors, and we ALL know how THAT turned out !
Christians are not Christ. And most who proclaim don’t seem to have the heart. My belief in the Bible is the only hope I have for a better future and my hope doesn’t rest in this world. I am a true believer. Who ponders suicide often.
Jesus did suffer in His life much rejection and hatred and much more and He was innocent without sin. 💔 He did it for all. It’s a time for us to be merciful as the Bible says.
we all have hard crosses to bare in life and the things done to you, were hard
but lessons we learn is FORGIVENESS, for your healing as Christ forgive you.
I’m sorry that you gave up your faith because some of us (and maybe most of us) who call ourselves “Christian” behave badly. Jesus said that He would not lose one that is truly His, so perhaps, in your inner being, you still have “Faith.”
I do profess to believe that Jesus died for my sins, and that He was raised from the dead and that He now sits at the right hand of God making intercession for the saints. However, I must confess that
I do behave “badly” at times (too much). Often it’s due to pride or something else selfish. However, as I look back over my life, even though there are “bad” behaving “Christians,” there are some really “good” behaving ones also, who really love God and behave in a manner that befits a “Christian.”
This is a fallen world and often we are confronted with issues and possibly people that “trip” us up. When we fall, we have to get back up. And I hope and pray that as I continue on this Christian journey that I will fall less and less. I also hope that I will not be “ashamed” at his appearing. I pray that the Holy Spirit become more real and “active” in the lives of those that really desire to glorify God in our daily living.
I too have been swindled and driven to homelessness by church people…even somehow continuing this abuse across state lines. They took everything from me, told enormous lies, slandered me and left my son and I for dead.
I was a Christian since I was a little girl, and at 41 I am free from this evil cult. Not one person who is NOT a proclaimed Christian has ever harmed me as much as Christians.
Business owners, landlords, realtors, lawyers…in the end if they are known and upfront about being Christians or promote church in any way…run. They are the worst of the worst. And the ones who aren’t actively swindling and oppressing, are too busy enjoying the spoils that their religion has justified them to in the name of providence.
“Also, I think that many of Jesus’ statements and teachings were quite “political.” ”
And I think that most of Obama’s statements are/have been non-political as well.
What’s relevant are the political statements, and there are quite some political statements in the bible.
With a lot of the so called Christians I have encountered,it seems that they distort scripture to fit a political agenda.I am convinced that if Jesus were walking the earth today,and came into the home of a born again,with his message of mercy,forgiveness,charity,and love,they would call him a pinko or a hippie freak,and throw him out on his backside.Constitutionally, our government cannot create a state religion or interfere in the inner workings of the churches.It should work in both directions. There is no religious litmus test for elected ofice,but there should be. That would be,anyone who says they base their voting decisions on what they hear from God,is automatically disqualified from public office. Most born agains I have met who say they have a personal relationship with God,and ask him what to do all the time,usually get exactly the answer they want to hear every single time. A bit too convenient to suit me. That,to me is a human making God over into their own image.
That is simply not true I pray for things and I don’t always get it. This nation whether we like it or not was built on judeo-christian values and that is a fact you can search out history Congress had prayer meetings and sought God for guidance every time they came together and they read the Bible together. I do not agree that Jesus was a political person for his kingdom is not of this world it is a kingdom where sin and disobedience has no place. The Bible tells us the footsteps of a good man are directed by the Lord. I know there are people that say they pray over every single decision in their life we know that’s not true. Do they pray before they stop at a stoplight or pray before they pull over when an emergency vehicle comes up from behind them no we do things based on the decision that is morally right. We don’t need a prayer meeting to do that. The United States government is going in the wrong direction especially under Obama and that is a fact he has misquoted scripture interpreted under his own authority. When the Bible tells us there is no private interpretation it simply means what it means.
However he has never missed quoted the Quran. Whether we want to face it or not the world is always going to be political mingled with religion you cannot separate the two that’s why we have so many radical religious people in this world. But true Christians are not religious they simply walk in the steps that God has ordered and they don’t need a prayer meeting to do it. Moral conscience is built within us but our love for God is the only thing that can wake it up and keep it alive. Without a prayer life we are walking around dead. Spiritually speaking our government has a lot of dead people walking around leading the nation down a path of hate and civil disobedience and it’s their own fault Obama has split the nation what his radical thinking over same-sex marriage boys and girls bathrooms. America needs a wake-up call or we are going to go down the tube very quickly. Woe B2 the nation that Calles evil good and good evil. Obama has created many of these issues with lifting up criminals. However he is reversing the role cops bad criminal good. There has not been what I would consider a good Christian president in years. Anyone that oppresses the poor man steals from the middle class to give to the rich is just a thief that has no moral conscience. Have a nice day
I agree with Mr. Eagleshield. Whether it is/ was Obama or the Bushes, or Trump, none of them can be trusted, because they are all corporate elites, and look down on average citizens. They discuss the Bible when it’s convenient politically. That includes false Christian Trump, especially. He’s been playing the Evangelical leaders like a piano. And he’s also trying to implement Fascism ( Project 2025, blueprint for dictatorship) please look that up ! I don’t trust Biden either. Certainly Christians shouldn’t support dictatorship. That said, the church in America basically is not encouraging people to be non – toxic. There’s a lot of books promoting abusive behavior as ” masculine identity.” That you aren’t even male, unless you are a ruthless s.o.b. Small wonder that people, especially young ones, dropped church like a bad habit !
I served 12 years as a teacher and principal in 5 church sponsored Christian elementary , middle and high schools. It was the worst years of my life. Vicious, abusive, cruel, unjust treatment by church overseers of staff, school families and students. Most teachers felt very called, as did I, but “What is your Christian school horror story?” was often asked among fellow teachers.
I felt like a soldier of the Lord as I was often recruited to troubled schools, so I learned to cope. On the plus side there was always a person or two, male or female, who came forth as “the real Christian deal”. You never forget those Christians.
Previous to teaching my job required flying light aircraft in mountainous terrain. With no real out in case of emergencies, God intervened. Very clearly He directed me to Psalm 91. I was to use good airplane maintenance and follow best practices and He would pick up the unknowns and give me a way of escape when I needed it. My uneasiness dropped away and I flew for four years in confidence with He being faithful to always make a way (and there were a few such times).
So that prepared me for the coming hard years of ministry. My faith was forged in the airplane. Play acting Christians were easy to pick up on, but still they literally put my family out on the street twice . One group got tired of a church school and, abruptly before the spring field trip, told me I had no school there for the students when we returned. I was devastated and worried. True to form, one of the dad’s showed us his Jesus–we got a new better building and only missed a day of school.
As all posts before me have said there is “the good, the bad, and the ugly” but in the worst of times there is the way of escape and often brought forth by the most unlikely people in the Church.
Unfortunately, every reason mentioned above is true. That is why I don’t blame people who do not go to church. I used to go a protestant church,and every member in that church, including my best friend from school (who invited to me join this church) was bad in how they treated people. As far as my friend is concerned, we really aren’t that good of friends anymore. Over time it became obvious that she did not have time for me outside the church just because she “conned” me into joining her church. We all have some of the faults mentioned above. I, myself am guilty, particularly 3 and 5.
Another one that I have heard Christians say in the Lutheran Church pretty often is “what I do, it does not matter if it is wrong, Jesus died for my sins, so I am forgiven.” I believe that if that were actually true, we would not have a reason to go to church; unless the church part is just an approval for the bad behavior.
When Christians behave the way they do in church, it makes me wonder how they act when they are in the real world, i.e, their friends outside the church, job, family, everyday life. I am sure that if anyone were charged with a crime, or is on trial, I am sure that if any of those lines were used in the presence of a police officer, judge, jury, etc., that person would be ticking off that person and hurting his own case. So, when people are in church, they should think about their conduct in how it impresses upon others, and start caring about what others think. You never know when you will come across a member of your church in the real world and how you will be received in that person’s life.
Thanks, Ellen. Was in Ghandi who said, “Jesus I love; it’s Christians I cannot stand”? I think it was.
I think that many of us who claim to follow Jesus are not the best representatives of His name. There are numerous reasons for this, I suppose.
This is maybe just one more reason why it is important to not “invite people to church” but to introduce people to Jesus, our friend.
Ghandi actual quote was “I would have become a christian if not for christians”
I also agree it is more important to introduce people to Jesus than try to force and guilt them in how they should be in church.
“Preach the gospel and when necessary use words” ~Saint Francis of Assisi
:}
Yep! I wrote something similar a while back:
https://redeeminggod.com/would-jesus-be-a-christian/
The entire basis of Christianity is based on the fall and redemption theory. We were born bad and must spend a lifetime trying to redeem ourselves. Shame and guilt are the theme of the day. I am not a Christian. I am a pantheist. (Everything is of God,and God is IN everything)
I am saddened to see all of these comments, and more saddened to see believers turning away from church. If they continue to leave, how will the church be reformed?
Christianity IS based on the fall and redemption story. It is also based on a belief that God created the world and called it good, that created humanity in God’s image and with free will, and that humanity chose to turn from God. We are born into a broken and sinful world, INCAPABLE of redeeming ourselves. God loved the world so much that he sent his only son into the world to bring redemption. The church I worship and serve with teaches that we are a part of the redemption plan, and that when we feed the hungry, visit the prisoner, and clothe the poor we are following the Christ whom we profess to be our savior. Do we mess up? Of course! Knowing that we are loved gives us the strength to ask forgiveness and try again.
Sounds good but I too have grown tired of people in the church. They gossip, backstab, hold you in contempt, have envious attitudes towards anyone with talent, browbeat you if you don’t conform to their superficial standards, most of the volunteer positions saturated with women while the paid ones men. Believe lies about members they don’t even care to know. Don’t even call to check up on you if you leave because of all this behavior. Have inner cliques and will continue to treat newcomers that don’t have the look they are after as outsiders.
Good point, and a logical one. Thanks.
Many people go to a church expecting something FROM OTHERS. They assume a consumer position, in which all THE OTHERS are obliged to give them something, but they are not obliged to to anything. Always THE OTHERS owe them something. They just have to sit and receive. When they don’t receive what they expect, they leave.
Well, that’s wrong. YOU are part of the church, too. If the others are bad, why don’t you provide an example by being good? This is Christianity. Follow Christ and the best Christians, don’t use bad examples as an excuse.
Let them treat and do to *YOU (Christians)* what was done to *US (non-Christians/former Christians)* and I’ll bet you’ll change your tune *REAL* quick.
I am done with church attendance. I am a Christian. I love Jesus for my salvation and hopefully my son’s salvation. I attempted church attendance again about 2 years ago. It was a disaster. The smiling churchians were so condemning and full of it. The men’s group was ridiculous. The very young man who was the “leader” would say that once somebody came a Christian then if he sinned he can go to hell. Another man in the group said the same thing. Once somebody disagrees, or is not as likeable as others, the group think occurs and the person gets ostracized. Jesus did not intend his church to behave like this. I will not attend a church and wear a phony smile and treat others in that manner. I quit church, but of course never quit Jesus Christ. I can say much more about my experience but I won’t here.
There are millions of people who feel exactly the same way. Be ready for the church people to continue to condemn and criticize you, saying that you can’t truly follow Jesus unless you sit in a pew on Sunday morning.
I say “Follow Jesus, and He will never lead you astray.”
My belief is if God need you some where else this is the kind of thing that he might use to start you looking else where. Sound doctrine from the pull-pit is becoming more nonexisting everyday ! Pastors are more worried about numbers and money than Souls and Salvation !
Exactly! This is why people are ditching Christianity in high numbers (as per Barna Group).
I agree with you 100%!!!! I worship at home and I talk to Jesus everyday. Thank goodness he doesn’t mind me being chatty. Churches have become all about money and less about scripture. SHAMEFUL!
I’ve heard this (from a family member in reference to my family) to justify their actions/words: “Well, I’d rather offend someone into heaven than flatter them into hell”… really?
I am a follower of Jesus, but I have refused to call myself a Christian because I am ashamed of what has become of that label…
It’s okay to not call yourself a “Christian.” I wrote a post somewhere on this blog called “Would Jesus be a Christian?” The term carries so much baggage that few of us want to be associated with, even though we truly want to follow Jesus and love others like Him.
So it’s okay to refuse calling yourself a christian but a mortal sin to call yourself an athiest?
“Atheist” has a bad rep too, just look at youtube. Many people that lack belief in god are ashamed to associate with this label.
It’s a label that has no belief. It represents nothing. Christianity represents love, hope, faith, mercy, and truth. All good things.
A perfect man who was and is God was not tortured and crucified for nothing.
Jesus never mentioned christian, that phrase was first mentioned in Antioch , we are supposed to be followers of Jesus and live as He has given us instructions to do so. People
want to follow every wind of doctrine and not study the words of the bible. As you know
opinions are like noses everyone has one and they are all different. The bible tells us to study to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the word of TRUTH.
Wow, I can’t believe what I just read. I could’ve written it myself. I’m struggling with all this “I’m a christian” stuff but turn around and treat others so ugly. I work for a woman like this and she is downright hateful. She gives thousands of dollars to her church weekly, puts a smile on her face, then turns around and treats her help like they are her slave and proceeds to talk about and put others down. She is OCD and obviously narcissistic personality disorder. She can’t see herself ever doing anything wrong or if she dies, she laughs at herself and truly finds it funny. She is the most toxic person I’ve ever known, along with her kids ho have little to do with her.
The only people who come around are those who make lots of money from her; Prostituting themselves. They participate in her games and laugh along with her while talking about others. I had enough of it today when she was telling her landscaper that he won’t go to heaven if he doesn’t believe. I chimed in and asked, if you believe but treat others badly, will you still go to heaven? Not quite realizing, yt, I was referring to her, she tried to chalk it up to a person just having lost their way. I said, there must be a whole bunch of them cuz I’ve met many! This woman and her family are wealthy, greedy, judgemental and never ever offer to help others with anything! I just don’t get it and am feeling so bitter! They truly contribute to giving Christians a very bad name!
I understand your frustration. It’s that kind of attitude towards others that has me completely disillusioned with the state of modern Christianity. Unfortunately I feel that this is the lasting image that my generation and future generations are going to have when the poster boys of the Christian name are those who flaunt it for gain in the political arena. What thinking and feeling person would want to share the name of those who seem to fight tooth and nail for the sanctity of life by protecting the unborn but refuse to help better our education system or quality of life for those not as well off. Those who welcome with open arms people who commit greed, lust, thievery, etc. but cross their fingers and hide when approached by a homosexual. These things have caused many of my good friends to reject Christianity.
But what I feel we need to remember, in order to not become a bad name to Christianity ourselves, is that our job is not only to enter the lives of sinners and to show them the love of Christ but to lovingly edify those we feel are hurting Christ’s cause. Often times I am guilty of pointing my finger and showing judgmental anger at them as I feel they would to me. That only divides us further. Remember that a miserly Christian who hurts others is just as loved and desired by Christ as the most loving Christian in the world who struggles with a sinful addiction. If we can all realize that while we hold different opinions on everything under the sun we can be an overwhelming positive force for Christ’s love that would be impossible for the world to ignore.
HJW,
I am so sorry she is behaving this way, but as you point it, it happens far too often to be coincidence. I think it has something to do with “chosen people” theology that many Christians get taught in church. We Christians sometimes think that we are better than others because God has “chosen” us. It’s BS of course…
Anyway, please know that Jesus is nothing like this woman, and nothing like most people who bear His name. I hope that although Christians are not like Christ, you know that He loves you, accepts you, and is with you, no matter what.
Well, I’ll be… I have just read exactly what my own sister, married to a Methodist pastor, have done to me for the last thirty years! I could never understand it. How they could “preach the gospel” and “teach the children” and go on mission trips and help all the poor people but treat me like dirt. They have slandered me and berated me for all these years all because I wrote to my mother and father about what was done to me many years ago growing up as a child, and I wrote that I would take steps to protect any innocent victims if the same thing happened to them.
For this, D. & G., of the Methodist church persuasion, have attacked me and vilified me and ostracized me for more than 25 years. How can this be? Because I “told the truth.” But I am still to blame. I can never again trust anyone who says they are “Christian” because of the horrendous treatment I have received at the hands of my own youngest sister and her husband, who I met all of two times in all these years for about an hour each time.
They were forced to apologize when I notified their director that I intended to sue, due to the ongoing slander they were perpetrating against me, but their one sentence “apology” was so empty as to be more salt in the wound. Then they set other relatives against me, all because I wrote a letter to our parents – not to them, not to anyone else – that I would take action in the present day if any harm came to any innocents again.
How can these so-called “Christians” be willing to approve of and allow child abuse? All in the name of WHAT? And preach each week from the pulpit?
This is the worst kind of hypocrisy. They are as bad as the Catholic Church that we grew up in, who allowed pedophile priests to abuse whole generations of children. All I can say is “God save their soul” and God pray for them, because I surely can’t.
I pray for anyone that turns to them for consolation or comfort, for their hearts are as cold as stone. Reconciliation is not a word either of them know.
One day, D. & G., you two will stand in front of the Lord. I don’t think God is going to fault me for taking steps as an adult to protect other innocents from harm. I couldn’t do it when I was growing up, but I surely can now. Until people stop accepting, enabling and hiding child abuse, it will never end.
And “Christians” like these are sure to keep it going… it’s the Devil’s work they are doing; not God’s. The Methodist church is in grave danger. God save their souls.
Catherine,
I am very sorry for the way you have been treated, especially on such serious issue like this.
You are raising some very serious accusations, some of which are prisonable offenses. Have your reported your concerns to the police?
Though you have been treated unfairly and unjustly for raising your concerns, please be careful about posting these sorts of details online in public places like this, because it can cause big problems whether or not it turns out to be true.
For that reason, I have removed the personal names of the people you mentioned and just left their initials. I just don’t want to get named in a libel lawsuit…
It is always a tragedy and a horrific crime when people try to sweep such terrible things under the rug and ignore them, and I hope that you are able to help the police unveil the truth of what is going on.
Please feel free to edit my response as you see fit. here it is as I wrote it. I just had to respond as I am shocked that anyone would suggest that what I said “might not be true.” What on earth in my post would make you think that? As a grown woman who has worked with survivors for years, I have never had anyone question me in the way that you have. And then throwing in a threat of potential punishment… It’s really quite hurtful.
This is EXACTLY why so few people come forward, when they are met with silence, disbelief, or outright scorn. And then add in the threat that I might be in “big trouble.” Perfect way to make sure people keep silent and say nothing, and the abuse continues unabated in the church and everywhere else. Just ask the Catholic church. I’m sorry, but your response is exactly how the Catholics and Christians have always behaved. It is very distressing to read your response.
In any event, here’s my response.
* * * * *
Jeremy, I have reported these things and I am not “lying about this.” With the amount of shame and backlash heaped upon people who do come forward, there are very few people that “make this up.”
You wrote: “please be careful about posting these sorts of details online in public places like this, because it can get you into big trouble if it turns out to not be true.”
What makes you think that I would post this if it wasn’t true? Especially in a public place? Did my statements sound like a crazy or vengeful person made them?
I understand that you are afraid you might “get named in a libel lawsuit…” but what about the “ten excuses Christians make?” It’s only alright to report on things that are criminal, or criminally negligent? Or is it just the use of real names, so that the wrong-doer is pointed out?
It’s the secret of silence and shame that keep incest and abuse happening. Until people start naming and claiming what happened, nothing will change.
Reading your web page was very enlightening, as I could never understand how my own sister and her Methodist pastor could say and do the things they have. Imagine my wonder at finding out that many, many so-called “Christians” behave this way!
At least your article cleared up any confusion. Thank you for posting it and explaining why you removed parts of my post. Until people come forward and tell the truth and evil-doers are exposed, those devils will continue to have their way. At least talking out loud is no longer taboo. Someday everything has to change, and it needs to start with the churches.
Catherine,
I am sorry for the way my comment came out. In no way did I intended to imply that what you were saying is not true. I believe you. I do.
All I was trying to say what the the way to approach this serious issue is NOT by posting comments on public blogs about the people and naming them publicly on these blogs. You can post comments without naming people, but as soon as you make accusations like this in a public place, you (and I) can get into serious trouble.
If what you say is true (maybe I should say SINCE what you say it true…) you need to report what you know to the police and let them handle it. Naming people in public as child molesters, or as people who cover up child molestation, is not going to help the situation. You need to go to the police and to Child Protective Services and let them sort it out.
Catherine,
Jeremy is correct on this. I worked child protective services and law enforcement. You need to report what you are saying to child protective services and law enforcement. Posting it on a public forum such as this does not help your case. Instead of the guilty parties being prosecuted, you could possibly end up being prosecuted for libel/slander for anyone you are directly or indirectly naming. Unless you have the kind of proof a court requires to prove the child abuse/molesting allegations, there could be a problem. If you name names in a public place such as this and allege that those people committed certain offenses, it is reasonably certain what you are doing. I would suggest you ask Jeremy to remove all of what you posted here and make this a private conversation between you and Jeremy.
Thanks for your response. I won’t post again with any names, but I do want to point out that I in no case accused anyone of committing a crime. I have said that these people helped cover it up, and the people cannot be charged with a criminal act for “aiding and abetting a criminal act” as yet. This is what needs to change and why people need to be named for their actions.
I understand that you are concerned you “might be sued.” I sincerely doubt that this could happen, as I wrote and posted my own comment.
But the sad thing is that I have taken all the steps you recommend. What makes you assume that I didn’t? Naming people in public DOES HELP. Why do you think we have National Registry of Child Molestors? Why are they required to notify the police in whatever area they live in?
Police and Child Protective Services have been contacted and action was taken. My post is not about “how to turn someone in” or “what to do if children are being molested.” My post is about how it is impossible for me to understand how a Methodist pastor and wife could engage in a coverup and slander and libel the person who has reported it.
I really don’t understand why you believe “naming names in public” isn’t going to help. Criminals don’t have the right to privacy. Courtroom and criminal records are public records, in both civil and criminal court.
I have worked with survivors for more than 30 years, and I can assure you that as well-meaning as you must want to be, your responses (including this one) does nothing to help the situation. You continue to repeat that naming the people involved is somehow “wrong” or “dangerous” or “useless” or “incorrect” in some kind of way.
This is your blog and I definitely intend to respect that. Please, feel free to delete or remove names as you see fit. But don’t pretend to know how child molesters should be treated, or what the law is.
You can’t be sued for a comment someone makes on a blog. You shouldn’t assume that a survivor is “lying” and you shouldn’t tell them they can get in “big trouble” if they tell. You shouldn’t tell them to “keep silent” and “let the police and child services handle it.” Child abuse is rampant and endemic, for all the assumptions and statements you have made.
Until this silence is broken, nothing is ever going to change. And change it will and change it must. The enablers who protect the abusers must also be brought to justice. That is when families, churches and other organizations will realize that if they do not take action, they too will be held liable.
It’s not the truth that we have to fear. It’s the taboos and lies that keep us in the dark and keep us in danger.
I hope you can understand what I am saying here. I am really sorry I posted about my own experience with “Christians.” I didn’t know that this might cause a problem for you. I guess it’s only OK to post about certain things that Christians do?
In any event, thank you for your explanation and response. People have to begin to realize that we are ALL responsible for the children in this world. Not just the police and child services. Churches and other organizations will have to take a stand, if they want to stay in the light of God. Just ask the Catholics in Rome
Hi Catherine. The Freedom From Religion Foundation has a monthly newsletter in which the is a section entitled “Black Collar Crime Blotter” where those in positions is ecclesiastical authority who have been found guilty of crimes against their parishioners, not just accused, are listed along with their crimes. It’s extensive!
Interesting how the non religious trend to be more decent human beings than the religious. “I’m not violent, hateful and murderous, I’m just a fan of a book that advocates violence, hate and murder.”
PS: But I do want to thank you for your responses. They have been very important to me to show my CLEARLY why this “minister” and his wife have not taken any action to protect the innocent and bring the guilty to justice.
SELF-PRESERVATION and FEAR of reprisal.
That’s it in a nutshell. They won’t break any taboos no matter how Grave the danger is. They won’t take any action out of plain and simple FEAR. They will attempt to destroy any person or facts that would force them to stand in truth, because of “what might happen to them.”
They too must believe that any responsibility for protecting children belongs to the “police and child services,” and if they speak out they “might be sued” or they may be accused of “lying.”
I can’t tell you how sad this makes me feel to find out why they have kept silent all these years… but if it took your responses to show me, then I must thank you for that.
I have never had anyone react the way you have on this blog outside of family members and the Methodist pastor and his wife. Their church and all their flock that is in it are in Grave danger, but there is nothing I can do about it.
I won’t post again here for fear of crossing some other line, as it is your blog after all. But I do want to thank you for it. The Ten Things Christians can now become ELEVEN.
In God’s good grace we ask for help and protection.
Sincerely, Catherine Todd
Anonymous, apparently you and others reading my post are “ASSUMING FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.” There is NO CASE, as it has already been prosecuted many years ago.
Making a child molestor’s name public does not lead to being sued, especially when they are listed on a national registry. You decide to use the name “anonymous” so you are welcome to post without anyone knowing who you are. That’s not what groups who are working for change do, and obviously I am one of them.
No one needs to tell me to go child services or the police; that was done many years ago. Yet the Christians involved have attempted to bury the truth and that is what I am objecting to. If you re-read my posts I am sure you will see your assumptions are in error.
Where does I say a report “has not been made?” Where did I say that the guilty party has not been prosecuted? What I said is that a Methodist pastor and his wife have attempted to bury the evidence. I did not say they were successful at it. In one particular case was over 30 years ago, and this pastor and his wife (no names used as requested) are STILL trying to bury the truth. Yet you all seem to think that I am “damaging my case.” I don’t have a “case.” I took the steps necessary to protect the child. The pastor and his wife all took your ostrich stance: bury your head in the sand” and do nothing… it’s not “your responsibility” and “you might get sued.”
My post was about CHRISTIANS WHO ACCEPT CHILD ABUSE, CLOSE THEIR EYES AND KEEP SILENT ABOUT IT.
All the comments, excuses, assumptions, threats, intimidation and fears in the world won’t change the fact that until CHRISTIANS PROTECT THEIR OWN, ABUSE WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN. And Christians will be as responsible as the Catholic church is now for hiding their pedophile priests.
You are all so far off base here. I was not sued 30 years ago and the criminal has been brought to justice. Yet the family members and the church pastor who allowed this perpetration to continue have continued to attempt to punish anyone who speaks about it out loud. That seems to be the “Christian Way” in their lives. And this is why I no longer go to church.
I can’t believe that my comments are being taken out of context and being treated this. I have belonged to anti-child abuse groups for 30 years and we have worked very hard to bring child abuse out of the shadows and break the taboo. Coming onto a Christian site with a story about “10 Excuses Christians Give for Treating Others Badly” can now be changed to “11 Excuses Christians Give for Treating Others Badly.”
It’s responses like yours that keep it hidden, and therefore keep it alive. Please stop telling me what I should or shouldn’t do. The deed has been done and the guilty have been prosecuted. BUT the minister and his wife have not “seen the light” or taken steps to prevent child abuse in their family or in their church. There is a judgment against them as we speak. So telling me “I might get sued” has nothing to do with the case.
I won’t respond again, and I am sorry that it appear that people have jumped on the bandwagon here, with erroneous assumptions and admonitions. But I am grateful to find out how “the mind” of the “Christian” operates, as this is something I could never understand. Now I do, at least a little bit more. Hide your head in the sand, don’t make waves, don’t take responsibility, and above all, SELF-PRESERVATION.
Let Jesus take care of the children, right?
Amen.
Catherine, go back to the beginning of what you posted here yesterday and reread what we can read. Nothing you wrote says these people were prosecuted and found guilty. You did not say that until the previous comment dated today at 2:14pm. No one here is trying to accept or close their eyes to child abuse. No one took your comments out of context. You did not provide the context, which would be that these people were prosecuted and found guilty many years ago. That changes everything. No one here is assuming anything about you or the situation.
What about Christians who hide child abuse and then blame the mother who spotted it in the first place?
Sad very sad. Praise God for good mothers – and anyone – who spots and reports abuse. Shame on churches, christian school or any christian business that doesn’t take reports of abuse or potential abuse seriously!
This discussion is turning into a real mess… but no wonder the “church people” have acted the way they do, if this is how discussions are treated.
Now another one chimes in, telling me to “calm down.” What??? And goes on to say:
“You did not provide the context, which would be that these people were prosecuted and found guilty many years ago. That changes everything. No one here is assuming anything about you or the situation.”
I did not provide the context because it wasn’t important to me; what was important is that the church pastor and wife took no action and were accomplices in the cover-up, just as the Catholic church had done for so many years. That is what my comment was about.
This blog asked for comments about other things that should be added to this list, and silence and participation in child abuse is what I was writing about, that I felt should be added to the list.
I was NOT writing about how to report child abuse, or how to make a civil or criminal case. I had no idea that I would have to defend or explain anything about the actual incidents that went on for so many years. People have also apparently assumed that things have happened to me, or that I was lying about things or that I or others could be sued, and on and on and on. And I’ve been told that my comments should be removed; should remain “private” and I should “calm down.”
This is incredible! Talk about assumptions and judgments and “rushing to judgment.” I am really shocked to discover that I should have had to “provide the context, which would be that these people were prosecuted and found guilty many years ago. That changes everything.”
Yes, it does. But if you read my original comment, it is solely about church pastors and church members KEEPING SILENT in the FACE OF ABUSE.
IT IS CLEAR that people here are “assuming anything about you or the situation.” Just look at what people have written! This pedophile abused many, many family members and children. What makes you think this is something that happened to me? Where does it say that? I, as the one who brought this man to justice, have been “punished” by the Christians in his family. That is my complaint, and has ensured that I will never set foot in any church again. This was pointed out by other commentators with their own experiences they shared on this blog, as requested by the blog owner.
Once again, I am talking about how “Christians” behave in the face of adversity. This entire discussion is a perfect case in point. Three people have now chastised, admonished, judged or picked what I said apart. Assumptions have been made left and right, and I have been told by three people that my post is “incorrect,” even to telling me to “calm down.”
I can tell you this: I am sorry I ever posted anything here, but it’s been an excellent lesson in how Christians behave. This is exactly the same kind of judgment, assumptions and run-around I have witnessed with the pedophile’s “Christian” family members who are still angry that he was brought to justice. But I’m not. I’m just sorry to see that interacting with “Christians” is not necessarily a safe place to be.
I didn’t come here to be judged or to have to defend myself. My point is that churches and families will have to begin to take responsibility for the safety of children, no matter what. You cannot expect police and social services to take complete responsibility. Social Services can be overwhelmed with cases and police don’t always do their jobs. It’s all our jobs to watch over the little children, as Jesus said, “Let the children come unto me.”
If you want to continue to find fault of pick apart my posts, of course you are free to do so. But I am not here to defend or explain myself. If you can read what I’ve written you *may* be able to understand what I am saying.
But as long as people say “this should be private,” “your posts should be removed,” “you didn’t explain yourself sufficiently,” “you or I could be sued,” “you are making accusations that might not be true,” “you need to calm down…”
Well, guess what? Statements like these ENSURE that no victims are going to come forward. If I was a child, I am sure I wouldn’t in the face of such judgment, disbelief or scorn. I belong to many groups that work tirelessly to prevent child abuse, and when I saw this blogger REQUESTING other things that should be added to the list, of course I naturally believed it.
I am sorry to find out I was wrong. You can do what you want with my posts, as I guess child abuse by Christians just doesn’t belong here.
This is very disheartening to me, but it’s exactly how these so-called Christians that I have been talking about behave. Just one argument and negation after another. If this is the culture in the Christian church, and this is how people talk to each other, telling each other what they should do and when they should be quiet and how they should behave and what they should say… well, no wonder pedophilia is alive and well in churches across the land!
In the case I have been describing, it took going to the head of the church diocese to get attention and action, and finally they did after the threat of a lawsuit. I was relieved we didn’t have to go that far, but I will never forget that this is what it took.
It’s a shame to find out that these stubborn balkers aren’t the only ones. I really thought that this was an aberration, but I can see now that it isn’t.
God bless the little children, and God save them because it’s clear that many Christians surely won’t. Judge me all you want, but the fact remains: We are all responsible for the children in this world, and it means standing up for them even when disapproval – for whatever reason – reigns.
I am saving this conversation as a perfect example of how assumptions, judgement, directions, admonishm, accusation, disbelief, fear and denial works.
It does a good job of putting out all but the brightest fires, and I thank God every day for the good people who do take child abuse seriously. Judge me all you want, but God wants us to look out for both the children and each other in this world.
Amen.
Hi Catherine, I totally understand how painful and frustrating and infuriating it is when dealing with something as terrible as the sexual assault of a child, especially by those whom Christ has specifically pointed out in His word are to take such good care of those precious little ones. The same thing happened in a church that I attended. Not once, but about 3 times. I found out about it years later, or I would have done what you did, turned them in to the authorities. It is not just the churches though that do these reprehensible things. Think about the guy at Penn State. They knew all along that he was molesting children but the reputation of the school and football team mattered more, and so it was allowed to continue. We have a morally despicable problem in America and that is that the ‘sacredness of the institution’, weather it be a church, school, sports team, you name it, has more value to be ‘protected’ than the individuals who’s lives that are being destroyed. My heart goes out to you in the pain of being shunned by your sister and her husband. That is one of the cruelest and most ungodly forms of abuse. Please don’t give up on Jesus, He is NOTHING like that. The Jesus I know, who has helped me through my own abuse, is loving, forgiving, gracious and He does all to restore the broken persons dignity as a human being with worth and value. Know you are in my heart and prayers, I feel your sorry and pain.
Thank you too, Mary… (I’m reading a few of the earlier posts). You wrote: “The same thing happened in a church that I attended. Not once, but about 3 times. I found out about it years later, or I would have done what you did, turned them in to the authorities. ”
Unfortunately, I have been “stripped, whipped, tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail” by my own family members for simply STATING that if I found out, or “heard a whisper of a finger being laid on my niece” who was going to stay with my abuser and his enabler, I “would go to the authorities and this time I would and legally could have him put in jail.”
Back in the day in 1965 and earlier, whenever I did go to the authorities, nothing was done. Children were not believed and thanks to Freud, any child reporting incest was determined to be ‘having sexual fantasies about their father and in need of treatment.”
The child! And there were no child protection laws at all: the man, as head of the household, could beat his children and his wife, and if the wife was killed, well, that wasn’t against the law either. Child or spouse, they “shouldn’t have got him mad.”
Just like rape. “If rape was inevitable, lie back and enjoy it.”
It makes me sick just to repeat those phrases that I grew up with. And these were just two of the ugliest thinking and attitudes that men could come up with.
How is this possible? Where was the church in all this? What church took a stand against the terrible crimes that were perpetrated daily on women, children and people of color?
What church took a stand against slavery in the South, in an unpopular area? Did any, really? I know some did “back East” but many in society in the East were opposed to slavery.
How has the church (and I mean this to include any or all denominations) taken a position for what is morally right, other than admonishing their members with words and few if any deeds? Missionary work to “save the heathens” who use a different word to praise God, any word that is different than their own… even though the other peoples and cultures don’t speak English and have their own words of prayer… How many churches respected other cultures and how many do now?
I have given up on religion and would like to have this reversed. We had the nicest most sincere nuns teaching us when I was a child – apparently I was one of the “lucky ones” as there are so many stories about the “mean old nuns” wrapping knuckles with rulers and more. But that never happened with us. We just were taught that any baby born and not baptized was going to “limbo” forever because their uncaring, heathen parents did not wish to save their souls committing them to the Catholic religion, and we prayed on a daily basis to those poor innocent children abandoned by their parents to eternity forever outside of heaven and the love of God.
How unfair and criminal of those uncaring parents, who may well have worshipped at a different church or even worse, in a different language!
I had greatly hoped that the Methodist religion was different, but apparently not.
And to the person who said “I wish you could have heard my tone of voice…”, well, words cut deeper than “tones.”
That’s all I can say for now. This is a huge discussion and may well not be “appropriate” for this website, but there you have it.
My own continued search for The Divine, and my own personal experience of “learning how to pray” from some of the poorest people in the world in Guatemala, and the indigenous Mayan Indians, who really do have FAITH in spades. They have to have “faith” because they have little else, and they live by what I call the Three P’s:
Patience,
Pardon &
Prayer
And they say that “patience and pardon” IS “prayer.”
And I have learned to believe them, as I have added one more “P:”
Practice.
With these four, I am on my way.
Again, Thanks for writing… Sincerely, Catherine Todd
Catherine,
I read the conversation from the start and you did not perceive wrongly from my perspective how you were being responded to. Thank you for all of the insight you have revealed through your post and the really pain inflicting conversation it spurred. It is very helpful to others. Sorry about it being at your emotional expense. I too have suffered rejection and isolation for pointing out the lack of the Emperor’s clothes in a similar situation. I am sorry for the pain you have suffered. I pray that you are overwhelmed by what Christ is really like.
Your fellow Earth traveler,
Amy
Dear Amy,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful and considered response!
At times I had wondered if I was somehow “crazy” as how could these people be responding to me in this way? Confirmation from others always helps us keep things in a more true perspective, when things are viewed from more than one side.
I have given up on “church” to be sure. After being abused by my own sister, married to a Methodist minister in Maryland, who both choose to believe the lies, distortions and slander about me based on twisted stories designed to protect the abuser, when the facts are as plain and clear as the sun on their faces… all because they are “in relation” with the abuser, and I should have “kept my truth within the family” and not made it “public.” I never knew what “public” they were talking about, as I only wrote to my mother and father in an attempt to protect my niece from harm. What more could I do? What else was I morally compelled to do?
My parents made it “public” in their zeal to attempt to destroy my character and life story, and it only worked with other siblings in my so-called biological family. But why would a “child of God” married to a minister want to continue this chain of lies? Why on earth would a minister who had met me twice and could clearly see no evidence of the accuracy of those miserable stories which he “knew had to be true because he had heard the same consistent stories about me all these years?”
Since when does repeated gossip, slander and libel constitute “truth” simply because it has been repeated “all those years” by people who had not seen me in over 30 years? How can this be? What kind of thinking can a reasonable, intelligent person use to justify this kind of character assassination upon someone they hardly even know and had never had a hard word pass from my lips to theirs?
It’s beyond me. And my sister teaches Bible study to her young charges, and her husband preaches from the pulpit. Their directors know what they have done to me and forced them to write apologies to me, and then transferred them to a larger church in a different town. Just like Catholic priests were transferred when they were found out in their child molestations. And these two have continued to attack me via other family members, making sure to never have their own names attached to the hate mails I have continued to receive. So nothing changes.
And then I see the same words, attitudes and behaviors here from some of these commentators, and I realize – once again – why I do not belong to any organized religion and why I will never believe what a self-professed “Christian” will say. So many hypocrites, using their “religion” to hurt and destroy. Just as the Catholics “planted religion at the point of a sword.”
And I say this as a “lapsed Catholic” who was in the convent to become a nun when I was young. Catholic Church says you “can’t quit,” but guess what? I DID.
I still believe in God and the Divine, but I so rarely see it in practice and in action… it’s heartbreaking to realize they harsh judgment and hypocrisy, racism and slavery hiding behind the so-called “word of God,” but I know my own God and my God is a God of Love.
And I strive to be like that, even though I am a long way from it.
As you said: “I read the conversation from the start and you did not perceive wrongly from my perspective how you were being responded to. Thank you for all of the insight you have revealed through your post and the really pain inflicting conversation it spurred. It is very helpful to others. ”
What a great way to put it! As long as this conversation has been “helpful to others,” then I can say truthfully, now that the wounds have healed, it was “well worth it.”
But you can be sure that I don’t divulge my heart or thoughts to any “Cristian site” anymore. Once was enough and I won’t make that mistake again!
Isn’t it a shame that human nature, being what it is, has special words for people who act in truth and kindness, showing courage for others instead of only self-righteousness or self-preservation?
There are so few of them, these are the people we call “heroes and saints.”
I am glad to have known a few.
Dear God please show me The Way.
Gracias for all gifts, both large and small. Gracias, Amen.
And thank you again, Amy, for writing, and saying my name so I knew exactly who you were writing to. Sometimes when people don’t it’s impossible to know. You have truly made my day and my night!
Your friend, Catherine Todd
PS: Thanks to anyone else for any support offered here, in case I missed reading their response(s). I haven’t dared to come back here after some of the comments that were posted. But I do / we all do appreciate support of any kind, when it is based in real truth and fellowship. Gracias, Amen.
You wrote on your blog:
“Any others?
Are there others that you know of which didn’t make it on this list? Include them in the comments below.
And remember: of course Christians still sin. But when our sin is pointed out to us, the proper response is not to make excuses, but to say, “You are right. I am sorry. Please forgive me.”
What are the “acceptable” violations “to make it on this list?”
Obviously I posted one that is “unacceptable.” Please forgive me.
If I had known that I was “opening a can of worms,” I would never have posted here. Obviously I did not (and do not) understand the point of this blog. I did not come here to defend myself or make a case. I was and am talking about Christians denying and burying child abuse, including a pastor of a Methodist church and his wife. This makes me sick, more so than the gossip mongering and complaints listed in the comments above.
In other words, there is still “no room at the inn” for anyone who doesn’t willingly go on the rack or “stand in judgment” by the Christians in the room. This is so sad, but it’s clearly the way of the world… this world, at least. It’s quite a shock to me.
* * * * *
“The taboo against talking about incest is stronger than the taboo against doing it.”- Maria Sauzier
And until this ends, nothing will change.
Child sex abuse is a taboo topic for some parents [and churches] – CNN.com
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/29/…/sexual-abuse-talking-to-kids-parents/
CNN
Apr 30, 2014 – Child sexual abuse is a taboo topic in some families, but experts insist that parents must empower kids to speak up about inappropriate … until a guest speaker stood up to talk, shattering the banality of the ….. In a recent survey, more millennials than Gen Xers or Baby Boomers said kids are better off when …
Awareness – Voice Today
http://www.voicetoday.org/awareness/
“Finally, there is the fact that Christians love to pick and choose which sins are the worst – things like homosexuality and murder – while ignoring sins that are prevalent within our own congregations (which might actually be much worse) – sins like gluttony, greed, and pride. The watching world sees our blatant hypocrisy and criticizes us in return for our unjustified criticism of them.”
AMEN. HERE YOU GO: OVER AND OUT.
You are right. Christians should not be cherry picking out the worst sins. We as Christians should be a lamp set out for the world to see. A person who lives their life by the word of God. Jesus told the disciples to judge not lest ye be judged. But that doesn’t mean we should not call out sinful behavior.
It really saddens me to hear all the pain that Christians have caused. The only truth I can say to these people is to not let their faith suffer because of someone else’s actions. Churches are full of sinners. So it makes sense that you would come into contact with a bad person at church. Yes it is true that some Christians use their faith to abuse other people so the answer to that is move to another church and find mature people in their faith. You have to know we are out there. Also ask God to bring the right Christians into your life. God does answer prayers. People in churches are just a community of people from the worldly realm. Jesus described people like this. He said they are like white washed tombs. They are full of dead men’s bones. So remember God is aware of these things and He is just a prayer away as is the Holy Spirit. Ultimately your connection to the Lord is personal and you will answer only to Him. No one else.
Exactly right!
I also try to make sure I am not offensive to others. I don’t always succeed, of course…
i see a lot here. i’m a christian, and go to a great church. i have been one of those bullies mentioned here. i see sin in other’s lives and point it out (not angrily), but have so much i need to work on myself. i go to christian dating sites and send a friendly hello…but when they dont write back right away “hey, what kind of a christian are you? i said hello..and you walk by with your nose in the air?”. one woman DID write back to me about that, i’m glad she did, cause she pointed out where i myself was rude to her….and then accusing her of being stuck up. i had no right to do that. i sincerly apologized to her, and we actually had a pleasant conversation. she isn’t stuck up at all. the issue was that i was impatient and rude…i thank her for pointing it out.
In response to Catherine Todd, I have had a VERY similar experience. I used to have a decent sister. We went to church against our parent’s wishes. As adults, she joined the Catholic church, moved to a small town and slowly lost all of my respect. While visiting a relative’s gorgeous new home in a city, my sister looked out the window at the ‘brown-skinned’ family in a nearby backyard, and said, “How can they afford to live here??” with all the derision she could muster. I was disgusted by her thought process. When another sister had a pre-school aged niece visiting, the niece was raped and sodomized by a 12 yr-old nephew of my sister’s husband, (in my sister’s home) My two sisters decided not to tell our other sister what had happened to her own daughter. They kept allowing this awful kid in the home, and made my poor little niece sit with her abuser every Sunday in church. Of course, a few months later, the little girl told her mom (and the healing began), but my older sisters would have never done a thing to protect a tiny little helpless girl – a blood relative – all at the expense of their own comfort level.
Catherine, I understand your need to tell your story and shine a light on the danger of ‘family secrets’. It’s a shame that the readers assumed you needed their advice, rather than see what you need is to simply keep the story alive by retelling and, hopefully help motivate someone to do the right thing when their chance comes.
Thank you for sharing part of your story, as well. I wish Catherine could have heard the tone of my voice. I think my comments were read much differently than the spirit in which I wrote them. I have nothing but concern for her and her situation. Anyway, you (and she) are right. When things like this happen in our churches, we must expose them and stand up for the truth rather than sweep them under the carpet to protect those in power.
It’s difficult to convey/conceive ‘tone’ in writing. I belong to a couple of support groups (one is online only) and something I see happen a lot is when a person will say, ‘I am dealing with this issue right now….’ an unbelievably large portion of readers/listeners will somehow hear this instead, “I have an issue and I need advice on what to do”. The listener will then be shocked, surprised, hurt, and even hostile when the person doesn’t receive the unsolicited advice with the amount of gratitude expected.
Jeremy, it’s clear from your subject matter and the words you choose that you are a sincere, caring and open-minded person with the best of intentions here. I imagine readers across the entire spectrum of beliefs have benefitted from your posts. Please allow me to add my gratitude to Catherine’s. You do good work, please keep it coming.
I am a former believer, believed myself to be a christian, and deconverted. I have been conditioned to include “believed myself to be” so as to avoid the “you were never really saved” conversation that always distracts from whatever the discussion originally intended 😉 .
I have seen a lot of bad behavior from christians, (or those claiming to be 😉 ) I was also incredibly surprised to find so many nonchristians, whether they be from varying religions, or agnostics and atheists, to have good behavior, and even exhibit “fruit of the spirit” ,what I once considered to be a way to test the faith, or rather character of a christian, (they will know them by their fruit).
The only thing I would emphasize is that it is certainly not all christians who badly behave. And I haven’t found it to be quite so rare as you imply. And to be clear not all nonchristians are well behaved.
Something interesting is that many christians seem to have a problem when an atheist points out their ill behavior, saying they are picking on the christians. Why not look to themselves. (pick on the bad behaving atheists)
Being a former believer, led me to the thought, that christians were held to a higher standard than others, by the bible, and the Jesus portrayed in the bible. As an agnostic atheist humanist, I still see no reason not to call a christian on not following what their leader commanded. (just as even though I am not a football player, I can read and understand the rules to the game, and comment on whether the ref was calling by the book, or passing over some of the rules)
You asked for other reasons we have heard given for bad behavior.
I didn’t see this one, (don’t know if i over looked it)
I have been told that the bad behavior is “tough love” . God is using certain people to be “pricks” ,
poppers of puss pockets that need popping to get the puss out of peoples lives.
Or, the fire that burns others into purification.
That god needs both types, the kind sweet loving, and the pricks. Because so many people need different methods to be brought to their knees.
I consider it a justification for ill behavior.
But in turn, when I am pointing out what I consider hypocrisy, I like to mention that if the god one believes in could use a jack ass to make a point, then certainly he could use an atheist. 😉
kind regards,
holly
Great comment, Holly! I agree with you completely! In fact, later this week I am posting a video from Bill Maher where he criticizes Christians for not loving our neighbors. Ironically, many Christians viciously condemned him for criticizing us… It’s laughable if it weren’t so sad.
I often think that many atheists are closer to God than many who claim to believe in and follow God.
When an atheist does a good deed is because of the kindness in their heart not because it’s what G-d commands,
I like the post. Good list. I think you left a few out but still pretty good. As an atheist I’m mistreated, judged and demonized as soon as people hear the word. Some Christians give me a chance to get a few words out but most of them just jump down my throat and beat me over the head with their religion. Usually it’s people of different religions or raised in different religions who treat me with more respect and who seem to be nicer people altogether. Even when I was classified in a religion, Christians were hateful to me and each other. Just vicious. Then they act shocked when someone doesn’t want to be a part of that?
I think it’s general arrogance and self entitlement. They think they’re the ones who have this little secret about God and heaven and the devil and such and oh, how stupid are we for not simply believing it the way they do. They don’t even need to use their brains and think about it, because the less they actually know about their religion and the less they think about it the more pious they are. They act like they are just soooo holy and that gives them the right to rain judgement down on everyone else and look down their noses at people. Lecturing and wagging their fingers. Regurgitating bits of phrases and half digested arguments around as if that somehow makes them smart as well as holy. They usually don’t even have half a clue about the ideas, evidence and science they are rejecting and they know even less about the religious dogma they are backing up. Their ignorance is only highlighted by the passion and anger they use to yell their God’s name and recite their hollowed verses. >.> I’m usually just sitting there, having only said three little words thus far, ‘I’m an atheist.’ and they’ve already gone into this crazy tirade and threatened me with eternal burning and torture and told me what a horrible person I must be and splattered ignorance all over the place. After they’ve finished venting on me I calmly right down some resources on whatever convenient mode of writing I have to offer and just walk away. If they’re interested in learning something they will check out said resources but usually these types of ‘Christians’ I generally don’t even bother trying to have a conversation with. They’re too up their own arses to listen to anything I have to say.
Then there are those Christians who are self entitled. They believe that being a Christian gives the lease to basically do whatever they want, say whatever they want, treat people whatever they want. Since you can use the bible to back up just about any behavior, considering it’s so contradictory and ambiguous ‘Christians’ just jump all over that opportunity. Plus, they can just be forgiven for whatever anyway, right? They don’t have to make amends to those they’ve wronged or get forgiveness from them, they just go to a priest to get forgiven by ‘God’.
I’m not saying all Christians are like this. I’ve met a few pretty awesome ones. Ones who don’t act like this, ones who are intelligent and thoughtful. It’s just been a rare encounter in my life. In fact, I’ve had better luck with meeting kind and understanding Muslims than I have Christians. I’ve had better luck meeting kind and understanding criminals than I have Christians. Same with atheists and such. Christians have been the meanest, cruelest, most hate filled, ignorant and shameful group of people I’ve come across in my 30 years on this earth. I think that’s saying something. As this poster has laid out, they have many reasons for being deceitful, and cold, and nasty. They often think only their group of people are worthy of respect and caring, and even then I’ve met many Christians who are bullied in their own church. That reads hate group to me. That reads bigots to me. As I said, not all of them, certainly. I think for the most part you can’t judge an entire group of people all together in a lump, however when most of them act a certain way and the way is contemptible behavior, I think it’s time to take a deep look at it.
I have my own issues with the religion and beliefs it’s self but it’s your choice if you want to believe it. However, your actions based upon those beliefs should be held accountable. Believe what you like but when you start making decisions and taking actions that affect other people based on beliefs that have zero evidence to back it up there’s a problem. When my freedom ~from~ religion is being violated, there’s a problem. When people are being abused inside and outside an organization, there’s a problem. When a tax free major and powerful organization are doing questionable actions, there’s a problem. I think it’s time for people both inside and outside the religion to take a step back and question what’s really going on, if it’s okay or not and what we can do to protect the rights of both sides. I am in favor of freedom of religion as long as freedom from religion and separation of church and state are being protected. Your freedom extends only as far as it does not interfere with other people’s freedoms. That’s something we need to protect in this country. Just because you feel some kind of holy entitlement does not mean you get to do whatever you feel like to whomever you feel like.
*write down
Wow. I am so sorry you have had these encounters with Christians. It really should not be that way.
My experience has been similar to yours. Though I do believe in God and follow Jesus, I am not a “normal” Christian, and when I meet “normal” Christian, they often treat me the way it sounds like they treat you.
I have met with and talked to many atheists. It almost seems that just as most Christians are militantly angry, mad, and judgmental, but a few are gracious and kind, the opposite seems to be true for atheists. I rarely meet a militant atheist. Most are gracious and kind. You yourself seem to be gracious, loving, and kind as well.
Anyway…. GREAT comment. I love your thoughts and your insight.
Something brought me back here today; and I’m glad it did. Thank you F. for your most appropriate and supportive comments on July 2, 2014, including:
“Catherine, I understand your need to tell your story and shine a light on the danger of ‘family secrets’. It’s a shame that the readers assumed you needed their advice, rather than see what you need is to simply keep the story alive by retelling and, hopefully help motivate someone to do the right thing when their chance comes.”
I am just horrified that the other people in your story swept abuse under the rug but given my own family history, that is exactly what they do and I am still being punished for “breaking the code of silence.” And this is by my “Christian sister” married to a Methodist Pastor! Both of them have gone after me for not “forgiving” sufficiently. And as far as they are concerned, that is the END OF THE STORY.
One day aiders and abetters of child abuse will be criminalized just as aiding, abetting or harboring an other criminal is. Rapists cannot be shielded by family members any longer.
I also appreciate Jeremy’s mention of “wishing I could hear his tone” and the other response that “tone” is impossible to “hear” online. Both made me feel better. The know-it-all who told me to “calm down” was way out of line, and I still can’t believe that they would sit in judgment of me, especially on a website devoted to the “wrongness” of judging by Christians! But in a sad and sick kind of way, it brought the problem and painfulness of this into sharp relief. I guess even scorpions have their place.
I wish that Jeremy would put a “email me when new comments are made” button on this site, as I would have been much happier to read the clear, concise and compassionate responses that were posted after my last comment. I have felt pretty bad ever since I got the “calm down” admonition and it just “proved my point” which I wanted to be DISPROVED. Thank you to EVERYONE here who helped prove me wrong, as I for one want peace in this world, and am glad to see that (some) others do, too.
Gracias, Amen.
PS: What brought me back here? I was wondering myself… I just had another run-in (“attempt”) at reconciliation with my sister and her Christian Methodist pastor, and her only response to my request for reconciliation is that I have apparently “not forgiven sufficiently.” And she teaches bible classes in Sunday school, and her husband gives the sermon every Sunday!
I don’t know many Christians to begin with, as they always start spouting off about how everyone else is going to hell because they haven’t accepted Jesus in His name or some such nonsense, even when I point out that the word “God” is said in different names due to different languages. So I must have come across this website in my attempts at understanding my sister and her Reverend husband of the Methodist Church persuasion.
I am so glad (sad) to read about the other people sweeping child abuse under the rug in the family… I swear, to this day I can’t believe that people continue to do so. Do they not care about children at all?
At least it’s being talked about along with the “crimes” of the Christians who say they practice “religion.” I thought God loved EVERYONE, and I know I try to. Or at least I leave the ones I don’t alone.
It’s been very healing to read through all these comments after all. Glad I came back today. And Jeremy, please add that notification if someone else comments. You’ve done a really good thing creating and maintaining this website. Perhaps there is hope for us all!
“The winds of grace blow all the time; all we need do is set our sails.”
Dear God please show us The Way.
Thank you for returning Catherine, and for your comment. You have been in my thoughts.
It truly is tragic that people try to sweep child abuse under the rug…. especially when churches and Christian leaders do this. May we all stand up against such terrible abuse.
As for email notifications when new comments are added, there is in fact a little check box at the bottom of the comment form for this very thing… I believe that if you check the box to receive updates about comment replies, you should get them….
Thanks… I don’t see a checkbox on my comment box to get updates (although I did get your update – I don’t know how). What I do have is a checkbox for ” Please send me free eBooks!” It also says “You are subscribed to this post. Manage your subscriptions.” So maybe I checked the box one time. I didn’t get any updates at all until I happened to check back here, but either way it is working.
And thank you for thinking about me and my situation. It’s hopeless, at least at this time, as I gave it one more try even using “Biship Tutu’s methods for reconciliation,” to be met with it’s “my fault for damaging our relationship by bringing up the past” (what she and her pastor husband did, and have been doing to anger and ruin my reputation with my entire family for the past 30 years). She bears “no responsibility” as she says “she has forgiven me” and until I “forgive her I will never find peace.” And her “forgiveness” does not require “my acknowledgement or consent.” It was quite a slap in the face, but at least she laid it out in uncertain terms. She is “willing to be on a friendly basis with her as long as I follow her rules.” It’s unbelievable, coming from a woman who teaches Sunday school at her husband’s Methodist Church. Until I found your website, I really thought “Christians” were different, but now I see they aren’t. So at least I know better what to expect, and more importantly, what NOT to expect. It’s so sad.
I am grieving greatly right now, and having to see the end of a relationship and bury it for good, and realize that this relationship NEVER EXISTED as I thought it did. I was wrong about her and her husband and that is something I have to live with. I ask God to remove the scales from my eyes and stop my wishful thinking that people would WANT “reconciliation” more than “being right.” I have to learn to ACCEPT THINGS AS THEY ARE and truly “put them in God’s Hands.”
What more can we do?
thanks for your website. The insights here, ugly though some of them may be, have really helped me understand some of the “Christian” mentality, especially the people who jumped right in passing judgment on me, telling me to “calm down” and more. Talk about supercilious! But one of them sounded just like my sister’s husband, and no wonder he got me so upset! I don’t have people like this in my own life, and now I have something else to be grateful for. The people in my life speak from their own experience and what worked for them, and never tell other people what they should be doing. So many of my friends have worked through, or are working through, difficult family members and they “know what it feels like.”
I am even more grateful for them now, after my experience here. Your site has helped me in more ways than one, and I thank you for it.
Gracias, amen.
“The winds of grace blow all the time; all we need do is set our sails.”
Dear God please show us The Way.
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Bishop Tutu’s approach was a good one to try. I am sorry it did not work.
I think that all you can do is forgive the other people in your heart and move on. Otherwise, the pain and hurt you experienced will begin to eat away at your own soul too, which makes you a double (or triple) victim of what happened.
Thanks, Jeremy… I agree on all counts. I am especially disappointed in Bishop Tutu’s own recommendations being ignored, but I can see that for some people, following “their rules” trumps everything else. Perhaps in the next lifetime things will be different, I don’t know. I do know that I have to ask God to help me “let go” as there is absolutely nothing more I can do. Sometimes people insist on being “the victim” and will never see or accept responsibility for anything they have done, and I have to just agree and move on. “Christians” or not.
That was the hard part… I never thought a minister and his wife would be so stubborn in this case, but they are proud of it and true forgiveness is not in their vocabulary. It’s more like they have “forgiven themselves” and I don’t count at all. But apparently God loves us all, so that’s what I am going to try and focus on. This will be a “new world” for me.
Gracias for everything that comes our way… and this website. Yours, CT
The terrible thing about child abuse in church is that when this happens to children and it is swept under the rug, they grow up thinking that this is normal and is what happens in church. Sometimes, peopel who were abused as children become child molesters themselves. I am not saying this always happens, but sometimes it does.
True. Of course, being abused as a child does not excuse the one who abuses children when they are adults (and I know you are not saying that), but it does make one wonder about the cycle of sin that happens in people’s lives.
Greg Laurie, a prominent pastor in California, once cautioned his church to be careful about how they acted toward others because, “you may be the only Bible people read”.
I’m sorry for all of you who have had bad experiences. I have, also. Not only with other Christians, but, of course, with non-Christians as well. I am repeating some of what others have already said in this blog but also including scripture which I think is always important when we voice an opinion based on God’s word. There are many more, of course besides these. I hope the following will be helpful:
First of all, ‘Churches’ are not only for fellowship, but for worshipping God: Through hearing the word, song, and prayer. As long as the pastor is an accurate teacher of scripture and you find God speaking to you through that person, it is worth being a part of. God will lead you to the right people for fellowship if you keep your eyes on Him and not other Christians.
At times some of you refer to Christians as a whole based upon your experiences with a few misguided souls. One stated that there are millions of Christians who feel the same way (about being mistreated). Then, what about those millions? What about the people who responded to this blog who feel the same way? The Bible says not to attempt to lead a monastic-type life or a secluded one:
“And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another–and all the more as you see the Day approaching.” (Hebrews 10:24, 25)
Please keep in mind that within any assembly of uncommitted, backslidden, or misinformed Christians, will also be committed ones who are truly living the faith as God intended and are looking for the same fellowship as you. Please don’t turn away from the love and support that fellow Christians can give you which is so vital to the Christian life, based upon the actions of the few you have had bad experiences with. It is also an act of disobedience because God has made it clear that we are to interact with one another:
“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all it’s parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.” (1 Corinthians 12:12)
“Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.” (James 5:16)
“Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God’s grace in its various forms.” (1 Peter 4:10)
“Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.” (1 Thessalonians 5:11)
“It is actually for our own good that God wants us in fellowship with other believers. We need each other to grow up in the faith, to learn to serve, to love one another, and to practice forgiveness. Though we are individuals, we still belong to one another.” “…the unity of the body, your own spiritual growth, protection and blessing are all at risk when you’re disconnected from the body of Christ.”( From, “What Does The Bible Say About Church Attendance”, by Mary Fairchild.)
And, Jesus himself, went faithfully to the synagogue:
“He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom.”(Luke 4:16)
The body of Christ are the believers called His ‘church’–not a physical place. But, where do we assemble? We also call this a ‘church’. It’s just a name. It can be a home fellowship, a gathering in a coffee shop, clubhouse, or any other venue. And, there must be a leader anointed by God:
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28)
“Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.” (Hebrews 13:17)
“To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder … Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.” (1 Peter 5:1-4)
The organization of a group is not a bad thing, just an essential component in order to create structure and identity. Every group works their way into that even if it wasn’t initially intended. As long as a ‘church’ keeps God at the forefront at all times, professing that Jesus died for their sins, and is lead by the Holy Spirit, the opportunity for many within those borders to flourish in spiritual growth and unity is there:
“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.” (Matthew 1:21)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
And please remember also, that God hates hypocrisy more than you do, especially where His holy word and His people are concerned. Misrepresenting God kept Moses out of the promised land, even after all he went through on the Lord’s behalf because of a moment of anger when he was supposed to be representing God and he acted in a fleshly way. It’s very important that people know who God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit really are. That’s why it’s crucial we keep our eyes upon the truth, read and meditate upon the Bible, pray with humility and ask God for forgiveness and insight into our hearts and His, and act in ways that He leads us no matter what other people do or say. The Bible also states that there will be people who will seem sincere, but who will not really be who they profess to be:
“And he said to them, ‘Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.” You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.’ And he said to them, ‘You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!’” (Mark 7:6-9)
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice iniquity!’” (Matthew 7:21-23)
“Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.” (James 1:21-27)
Whomever reproves anyone should very clearly feel and show the love of God while doing it. That they have the best interests of the person at heart. That they are concerned first for the person’s well-being. If not, they have other motives that are not of God. And, keep in mind, we are all human and prone to slip if we take our eyes off of Him for a moment, which we all do at times. Respond in kindness. Quote scripture. Turn their eyes toward God. His word won’t return ‘void’:
“So is My word that goes out from My mouth: It will not return to Me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11)
God bless all of you.
Good reminders here. Especially the part about us being the only Bible some people will ever read. We are to represent Jesus to others, and if we are hateful, spiteful, and hurtful, then people get the idea that this is what Jesus is like as well. It is so sad when we present God in this way.
I am sorry. But when god commanded us to stay in fellowship with each other he did not want us to go thru torture doing that. God does not want his children to suffer at the hands of other believers. We can share our faith with others by letting others see Jesus in our actions. Assemble with the needy
This is the very reason that Jesus says to test the spirit of a man to see if they are of the Light of Christ or darkness of satan. If we have been crucified with Christ and have been raised from death of sin and flesh then we are a new creation in Christ Jesus and have been given new Life. That new Life is Jesus working in and through us. Its all of Him in our life and none of the old man. This is how we know whom we belong to. We are not to judge the world and sinners cause they are judging themselves but we are to rightly judge those that claim to be of Christ by the fruits of His Spirit in order to protect ourselves and others from wolves in sheeps clothing that have crept in unaware. Whether we are part of a man made church fellowship or Christ centered church fellowship we are called to love and to be light in a dark world. Its up to those in church leadership to weed out the bad ones that cause harm to people and if they dont they will be held just as accountable as the guilty. Jesus did say that there would be tares mixed with the wheat untill He comes to judge and put away sin for good but until then we have to discern evil among us and cast it out for our own safety.God bless you all as you walk in Christ and He in you until the day of completion.
Sherry,
Thank you for these words of insight.
Let me just warn you though about church leaders who say it is their responsibility to weed out the bad people in our congregations. This is a warning sign of an abusive and manipulative religious leader. Usually this sort of talk is just a “spiritual” way for leaders to say they want total control and don’t want anyone to disagree with them. I am NOT saying this is going on in your church, but am just inviting you to be careful.
I think your post hits the nail on the difficulty of being a Christian. Christians hold each other to a higher standard. I think sometimes we are more concerned with appearing sinless to others than actually being sinless. No matter how far you get as a Christian, you can always be better. Sometimes I think charity can be found more outside the church. Perhaps we have too high expectations from each other. I am not saying chill out, don’t correct a brother. I do see why sometimes other Christians avoid each other. Obviously, some people do need correction because they are obviously leading a sinful lifestyle. People make mistakes, even Christians. People sometimes say a bad word. People lose their temper. While I wholeheartedly agree with your post. I think there is need to be something said about how Christians expect each other to be perfect.
To MaryAnn, You wondered if there was such a thing as being bullied by someone in your church. Google”spiritual abuse” and see how many items come up.
I was shocked the first time God led me to look it up. Literally hundreds of testimonials from true born-again Christians reporting verbal and spiritual abuse
in the churches they attended. I honestly thought I would have to do research to find out anything, but there it was in black and white….if you truly believe you are
being bullied you will have to join with a trusted christian friend in prayer and ask God if you should stay or go. He told me to leave but he may tell you something
different. This is never meant to divide the church…on the contrary, the ones who are scattering the sheep are the divisive ones. God may have you leave an unrepentant
church; anyone that enjoys hurting someone is not hearing from God. In my case, it was the pastor who was the bully…even to the point of trying to blackball me with
other churches in my area by spreading rumors with these other pastors who believe everything they hear without coming to me to find out what was true and what was false.
Please forgive them all no matter what, but don’t stick around to be bullied, unless God tells you to stay.
“Finally, there is the fact that Christians love to pick and choose which sins are the worst – things like homosexuality and murder – while ignoring sins that are prevalent within our own congregations (which might actually be much worse) – sins like gluttony, greed, and pride.”
Gluttony is worse than murder?? You want to try that one again?
Did I say gluttony is worse than murder? I said we like to choose which sins are the worst… while ignoring prevalent sins…
You want to try reading that one again?
There is nothing in there saying one is worse than the other.
This article is a perfect summary of a key reason why I have permanently quit church.
One that I think can be added might fall under the last one “We must please God, and rather than man.” I don’t mean to label or brand any particular church, but the Lutheran Church was and might still be very guilty of having this belief as their credo. The way it was always phrased was when someone hurt or offended someone, the response was usually, “I only need to apologize to God, so I DO NOT need to apologize to YOU.” To me that destroys a big foundation in any church, and that is why I left. It might sound like one detail, but it kind of set the tone on how they handle everything, which is why almost all of the excuses above sounded familiar in that church.
To be fair, I realize that not all Christians or Lutherans behave in the way; it could very well be that the people I was associating with in that church were immature, misguided, and not properly trained or educated in the teachings to be making such statements. I remember when I was in the Youth Group in that church, the youth adviser, and Sunday School teacher was not much older than we were, and did not have the proper background/education to be teaching us. One of the things he would always do is make up a scenario for each kid in the class in Sunday School. An example would be, “_________, you went out with some friends to a movie, after that you stole a car and crashed the car and died. Where would you go, Heaven or Hell?” The answer would always be Heaven because Christians are always forgiven because Jesus died for sins once and for all. Whenever he would do this, everyone in the class would always laugh and snicker because they never took anything seriously and took more joy in pointing fingers. Looking back on this, it conveys a poor message in a few ways. First, he was sending a message to all of us that it doesn’t matter what we do, because as long as we are Christian, we are saved. Second, I feel that he was in a sense labeling/judging his students by suggesting that they would do such a thing. Third, he was sending a message to these kids that they would never have to answer to God on Judgment Day, which I think we all know that we will. I even asked one time, how do you know that Christians will go to heaven? He asked me what I meant by that, and I told him that every week he says the same thing, so how does he know that God would never send a wrong doer to Hell. His response was “It is really between you and God”, “Church teachings will never tell someone that he will go to hell for doing wrong.”
Another thing that I did not like about this church were their extreme prejudices towards other religions and even races and cultures. They were always persecuting non-Christians, particularly Jews and even call Catholics non-Christian. Being half Jewish, is should have not tolerated it. My dad who was Jewish is no longer living, and my mom is Christian, so she never defended or protected me from this. Our Youth Leader and Sunday school teacher is also part Jewish, because he said it. But, he would still persecute Jewish believers. I am going to assume that some of his family is Jewish, so I wonder how he might talk about them. Hopefully, he doesn’t and may be capable of setting religious beliefs aside for the purpose of peace in relationships.
If any Christian church is correct in saying that we are saved simply because we are Christian, especially if we do wrong and don’t have to own up to it, then what is the point in even going to church? If church is supposed to make people better and more moral, but doesn’t, isn’t everyone wasting their time by going to church in the first place?
I would curious to know that if people who call themselves Christian really believe that their actions don’t matter and that they only have to answer to God, how they would handle any matter if they were dealing with Law Enforcement, or any Court system. I would imagine that if anyone were to say any of the ten things above to a policeman, firefighter, judge, prosecutor, etc, that they would just tick them off and risk getting a harsher sentence for being disrespectful to (the Law) or Justice System.
Hmm, my mother called my wife a ‘heathen’ because she doesn’t go to church. Mother slept with men before marriage and then abandoned her children after getting remarried when dad passed. She is genuinely not a naturally caring or loving individual or one that makes you feel comfortable or good about yourself. Granted, she was raised in a broken family and overcoming a young life without love is difficult. She does study groups at the church, goes on mission trips, organizes coffee, gambles, works for a plastic surgeon, has lots of material possessions, and is one of the major reasons I have a bad opinion of Christians. She prays for my soul and wants me to find god. I am not blind to my mother’s behavior or those at the church. The church is filled with people with smiling masks that cannot hide their beady and judgmental eyes.
The three people I know with the greatest moral character include my wife’s Christian grandmother, a Muslim man, and an LDS follower. Perhaps not relevant, I myself am a white Agnostic who was raised baptist ( saved by faith, not works ).
When I was more active in the church, asking questions, and reading the bible for answers…i came across passages that described the notion of leaving your material possessions behind and sharing the good news. With great excitement, I started looking for examples in my church where that was going on. Sadly, no one was doing it. People shared that you don’t have to leave your home, job, etc behind. You just share the good news as the scenario comes up naturally in things you already do. Hmmm, the Jehovah’s Witnesses come to my door but you won’t find a Methodist doing it. WTF people? If you truly believe in GOD and his teachings, you will be a shining light that inspires others. There are so many proclaimed Christians that the world could be flipped on its head if they simply acted as Jesus did.
There is a an excerpt from Luke that allows one to see the hypocrisy of ‘followers’
Luke 9…
As they were going along the road, someone said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” 58 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” 59 To another he said, “Follow me.” But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” 60 And Jesus[g] said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” 61 Yet another said, “I will follow you, Lord, but let me first say farewell to those at my home.” 62 Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”
To me, buying new cars and fancy houses is evidence of rotten fruit. Its okay to have money but it is better spent on helping others in need and spending quality time with the people in our lives.
To jeremy, Sam and Anonymous..i stopped reading after Sam wrote against Catherine along with u other 2..i don’t know if there was more sheep in wolf’s clothing to follow but what is your problem..are u even paying attn to what Catherine is saying. Have ears to hear and slow to speak. The way u have treated her on this blog has made me sick. She was simply posting her position in relation to the tittle of your blog..i think u better calm down and take her advice. Your defensiveness and persistence is exasperating and breaking of one’s spirit. Wtf is wrong with just supporting someone’s reply..u didn’t attack any others before hers..was only a matter of time and it doesn’t take long is my experience with most Christian ppl. Self preservation..yep. and snake humility in a nutshell.
Jim,
Sam didn’t write against Catherine. I know Sam quite well, and know his heart, and what he was saying, and the tone in which he was saying it. Nobody was attacking her on this site. We were (and are) quite alarmed at what happened to her and think it was absolutely terrible, and never should have happened. We fully support her and think that the people who treated her this way should be brought to justice.
The only point we were trying to make is that she needed to be careful about what she said about whom in public places like this. She has every right to go to the police or do what is needed to get justice, but if she goes onto public blogs like this one and starts posting names of people and organizations, it can get touchy if they decide to take legal action.
Within the Truth of God’s Eternal Living Word, it cannot be disputed that there has always been two types of Christians in this most deceitful and wicked world. These two types of Christians are: 1) The Christians that believe in God and His Living Word, and that is as far as they go. These are they, who believe that they can save themselves and their family by just attending Church services and giving their tithes. Yet they refuse to believe, that the devils also believe in God, and these devils just love to put these Christians to sleep. (Matthew 16 v 24 to 27, etc.)
2) Then there are the true dedicated reborn Christians who do not only believe in God, but they also serve God in Spirit, deed and in Truth, obeying God’s every command given in the New Testament. These are they who put righteous actions to their faith, knowing and accepting that faith without the works is dead. They are the useful tools in the Master’s Hand, who do not command or question their Master what to do. These Christians all willing and obedient, lay down their lives for God, His Living Word Jesus Christ and for their neighbour. (James 1 v. 22 to 27, James 2, 1 Peter 3 v 8 to 17, 1 John 3 v 11 to 24, Matthew Chapters 5, 6 and 7, Matthew 25 v 31 to 46.)
True dedicated reborn Christians accept their God given responsibility, by becoming cheerful givers and not deceiteful receivers, knowing that God is the supplier to the giver so to do His good works to the Honour and Glory of His Holy and Righteous Name. Unforetunately, there are many Christians today who have blindly fallen by the way and have pierced themselves with many sorrows to come. They believe in God, but expect God to be the servant and they the masters, by commanding God to give, give, give, so that they can satisfy their selfish needs as it stands written in 1 Timothy 6 v 9 to 10, 2 Timothy 3 v 1 to 9, and much more. (Philippians 2 v 13 to 15, Colossians 1 v 10 to 13, Hebrews 13 v 1 to 21, etc etc etc.)
I wish they would have had that sermon at my old church before we decided to leave it.
I have one more thing to add, well 2.
My pastor actually encouraged the congregation to watch fox news. (Now my father watches fox news and something very wrong is being perpetuated by him doing so. He is no longer approachable on any subject without him getting angry and throwing things around. His views of discrimination and racism has changed from when we were growing up. He used to be an open and appealing guy to be around now he is intolerant of gays and lesbians to the point of violent suggestions.)
My pastor wants everyone in church to vote republican. ( I cannot with all honesty do this act as paying taxes to me anyway is like joining the military to repay my country for its defense of my freedoms. My taxes pay for a lot of things that we take for granted, police officers, teachers, public schools, our highway systems and bridges, roads and light fixtures for our everyday usage and our countries defense by way of paying our men and women who are defending our lives right now both here and abroad.) Republicans are always complaining about paying their taxes and they cut jobs without looking at other means to better the economy. They also are perfectly OK with shutting down the government to make a political statement. This to me is treasonous and wrong. They constantly oppose the acting president of the united states. It is perfectly OK to not like what the president is doing or not doing, but it is not OK to take it to the levels where it effects American jobs and well being. They don’t like economic programs as they believe it is a waste of money. I thought the right thing to do was to help the poor and needy. I cannot with all my heart and soul be a republican and I resented the fact that he even suggested it. I am unbiased politically as I don’t trust anyone in politics. But as a soldier under Bush Jr. I can honestly say that I am never going to vote republican again. I have watched too many of my men die to protect something that was beyond our need to know basis. Thanks for listening to my rant and have a blessed day.
You say you’re no preacher but still you preach,
A wonderful sermon each day.
The acts of your life are the things that you teach,
It isn’t the things that you say.
You vowed to serve Christ, and men know that you did,
They’re watching the things that you do.
There isn’t an action of yours that is hid.
Men are watching and studying you.
Oh Christian remember, you bear His dear name
Your life is for others to view.
Men are constantly watching; they praise you or blame…
And measure all Christians by you.
Well, I don’t feel like I think other Christians must feel. Sometimes I look at myself and say, “Barb, you are not very self sacrificing or caring. In fact, you are pretty flat out pre-occupied with your own goals and problems. It’s all about you, isn’t it Barb?” Then I think Jesus is everything I am not.
Barb,
This is probably healthier than thinking that everyone else must serve you. Don’t beat yourself up too much, though! Focus on Jesus, and He will lead you to love and serve others.
I am a female in my late 30’s. I was raised Catholic and now label myself as a “recovering Catholic” because of the abusive childhood I endured. My father would physically, verbally, and emotionally abuse me in the name of God. (No sexual abuse, just to be clear about that.) I have found that most Christians, which include Catholics, follow the “rules” of the church, including the 10 Commandments, and then stop there. They do just enough to be “good with God” and then treat everyone disrespectfully.
I just had to unfriend my cousin’s wife on Facebook because of a photo of a baby snake. The snake was not venomous, but all of her friends told her to kill it, to have “a good snake massacre”. When I chimed in that a non-venomous snake in the wild should be treated with compassion and respect, they all criticized me.
My cousins words: “Animals kill animals all the time – its how they survive and how God designed the world. Are they all “disrespectors” of life? Ridiculous. Animal lovers……your view of the world is distorted. Take a look for yourself and see what God has said about animals and man’s position over them.”
How is killing innocent animals, “God’s creatures”, Christian? Why should I be criticized for my message of compassion and respect?
Animals do kill animals all the time, of course, but since God has given us the responsibility to tend and care for the animals, this does not mean that we can just kill animals whenever we want.
Of course, in this fallen world, some killing may be necessary…. I mean every time I put anti-bacterial soap on my hands, I am killing bacterial creatures… But anyway, people should not be criticizing you for your views. I am sorry that happens.
To “Anonymous” who wrote concerning the snake picture posted
on Facebook. There is a scripture that says in Proverbs chapter 12
that righteous people take care of their animals and are compassionate
towards living creatures. I for one, would not know a poisonous snake
from a non-poisonous snake, so I might kill a snake if I feel threatened,
but I would not enjoy doing so. I wouldn’t make a joke out
of it. The only reason I would do it is to save myself or another person
if I felt threatened. I do believe that human beings are
created above animals but that only heightens our responsibility to treat
them with care and kindness. The more power and authority a human
has over another person (or an animal) the more compassion they are
required to show. Since it sounds like the woman
was informed that the snake was non-poisonous it was not
necessary for her to kill it. Some non-poisonous snakes are actually
beneficial to the environment, I’ve heard. God says not to “lord our
authority” over anyone with a ‘lesser’ position.
That means a pastor should not be
cruel or abusive to a member of his church, a husband should not
be abusive to his wife, and a parent should not be overbearing to their
children. Pet owners should take good care of their pets and treat
them with kindness. Farmers should treat their livestock with respect
and give them the best medical care they can afford. There is never a
reason to disrespect or treat any other being, human or otherwise, with
contempt. Abuse is never acceptable. At the risk of offending cat lovers,
I don’t like cats…I’m a dog lover instead. I recently had to care for a cat
for a couple of days until it could get to it’s new owner. But I treated the
cat with kindness and made it as comfortable as I could until it left
my home. As Christians we should be soft hearted towards others, and
even toward animals. God made them too…..He said His eye is even on
the sparrows.
Thank you, Mary. It helps to know I’m not the only one, even though it still hurts. It’s a wound that has never healed, and having it be a pastor and his wife, my own sister, passing judgment on me all these years while heading a Methodist church makes it so difficult to believe that “Christianity” is real. I’m glad to find out that all Christians are not the same. We all pray for peace and I’m glad you, do, too.
Gracias, amiga! Catherine Todd
Please send replies to my email address.
Christians are notorious for bad behavior.
>Hmm. Most notable for bad behavior: Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Mao Tse Tong, Heinrich >Himmler, Joseph Goebbels, Vladimir Lenin, Mohammad, et. al., none of whom were Christians.
>
>Christians: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them >which despitefully use you, and persecute you.” Mt 5:44.
>
>And, when those who were at least officially Christians (e.g., Ivan the Terrible), acted wholly contrary to the >Christian tenets.
In some recent surveys (reported in books like unChristian and They), it appears that most people in our culture believe that Christians are about as trustworthy as car salesmen and lawyers.
>Such cynicism speaks to those who would judge.
And I will admit, I myself can behave pretty badly at times, and many of the Christians I know behave in far worse ways than many of the unbelievers I know.
>Tis’nt christian to judge.
I am always amazed at the grace, love, support, and forgiveness that is found among the “unchurched” which is rarely found among those who go to church.
>Rare? Statistics show that the most litigious countries are those in the West with nominal Christian presence
>(Sweden, Germany, Austria)
Reasons Christians Behave Badly
Some of it is our theology. Many Christians develop a sense of entitlement because we are the “chosen ones” the “elite” the members of the family of God. We feel this gives us the right to look down upon others who are not one of us.
>“Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am the worst” St. Paul. 1 Tim 1:15.
Sometimes, our behavior is a result of our understanding of God’s grace and forgiveness. We feel that because God forgives us for all our sins, we can treat others in terrible ways, and God will still forgive us.
>That interpretation can be put forward is beyond me. “Keep me safe from willful sins; let them not rule over me.” >Ps. 19:13
Then there is the critical, judgmental, legalistic attitude so often taught and practiced in churches. Since we feel we have a corner on the truth and that we are the ones who are always right, this makes us believe that it is our responsibility to be the world’s policemen, going around pointing out where people are wrong and how they are sinning. This is rarely received well by anyone, especially when we have glaringly obvious sins in our own life.
>Actually, it is the liberal Western society which has no qualms about invading, bombing, and destroying >societies that do not comfort with so-called Western “values.” Should I begin listing the countries?
Finally, there is the fact that Christians love to pick and choose which sins are the worst – things like homosexuality and murder – while ignoring sins that are prevalent within our own congregations (which might actually be much worse) – sins like gluttony, greed, and pride. The watching world sees our blatant hypocrisy and criticizes us in return for our unjustified criticism of them.
>Recognizing some sins (as you say, murder) as worse (more damaging to oneself and others) than say, falling >off your diet, is not something one ‘loves’ to ‘pick’ as you say; but it does apply a measure of human ability and >accountability.
But over the years, as I have personally engaged in hypocritical and sinful behavior, and as I have watched other Christians do the same, I have found that there are several excuses we give for our poor treatment of other people, and for sin in our own lives. When we treat others badly, we give excuses for why our treatment of them is justified.
Here are the top ten reasons I could think of:
1. We Christians are sinners too.
There are other versions of this excuse, such as “Hey! Nobody’s perfect!” or “I’m not perfect; just forgiven.”
The idea behind this excuse is that the watching world has put unrealistic expectations on us as Christians. We complain that they seem to think we should live perfect lives, which is impossible. So when we sin, and our sin is pointed out to us, we excuse our actions by reminding others that we are sinners too.
Theologically, this is correct.
But such a statement should never be used to excuse our sin. When our sin is pointed out to us, either by a Christian or a non-Christian, the proper response is not “Hey, I’m a sinner too, so get off my back about my behavior” but rather should be, “You know what? You are correct. I messed up. I am sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. With God’s help, I will do better next time.”
>OK. This commonality of sinners properly represents Christianity.
2. It’s nothing personal; it’s just business.
Sometimes people say, “This has nothing to do with my Christianity.”
Christians who say these things reveal a deep misunderstanding of what following Jesus is all about. For a follower of Jesus, there is no such thing as “it’s just business.” Truly following Jesus requires that we make changes in all aspects of life, not just in our behavior and dresscode on Sunday morning. If we are treating others shamefully at work and through our business practices, we are not properly representing Jesus in our lives. We must not divorce our spiritual life from our personal life or from our work life.
>Yes, as Christians it is incumbent upon us to forgive sins. But, saying, requiring payment on a business debt
>(which is duly owed) is not sinful. To forgive the debt out ones mercy may be the Christian thing to do in some >circumstances; something you’d never expect out of a businessman who does not hold to such tenets.
3: Judge not, lest you be judged.
People don’t like their sin pointed out to them. I know I don’t. And it is easy to get defensive and tell people to mind their own business. But if we are failing to be salt and light in the world, then we are supposed to be held to higher standards, and sometimes this means people will point out to us our failures.
When this happens, it is easy to get upset, lash out, and tell people that they have their own sin to take care of (which is likely true). But such arguments about who is the worst sinner rarely lead to anything good.
>OK … so how is practicing “judge not, lest you be judged” made into “practicing hypocritical behavior”?
4. It isn’t illegal.
I know a Christian lawyer from New York who steals money from others legally. I challenged him on it once, and he said that he is not doing anything illegal, which was technically true. He had the law of the United States on his side, and he had figured out a way to legally swindle people. Nothing he was doing was breaking any of our nations’s laws.
But there is a big difference between not breaking the laws of our nation, and treating people with love, respect, and dignity. God’s laws are higher than man’s laws, and even though a person may be following man’s laws perfectly, this does not mean they are following God’s laws. So be careful when you justify your actions because you are not breaking any laws.
>OK…this ‘higher standard’ praises Christian practice, it does not belittle it.
5. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. I’m just treating them the way they treated me.
It is funny how we often feel that retaliation is within our rights as Christians, and we quote Scripture to prove it. Quoting Scripture in this way is similar to how the devil quoted Scripture to Jesus in the wilderness: the Scripture is ripped out of context and completely misapplied.
If we are truly following Jesus, we will forgive our enemies, and love, bless, and pray for those who mistreat us.
>OK. Good. Let’s also put in the whole quotation:
>
>”You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If >anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. (Mt 5:39)
6. They’re not Christians.
Some people have the misguided belief that we are only to treat those within the family of God with honesty and respect. Those outside the family of God can be slandered, abused, and swindled. Sometimes Christians will say, “When in Rome, do as the Romans.” In other words, the world operates on a different set of ethics than Christians do, and so when we deal with Christians, we must use their set of ethics.
>How much of a straw man is this? This speaks to Pagan Rome (or its Western successor), not Christianity.
>All I can say to this is…. “Where is that in Scripture?”
7. I have righteous anger. In your anger do not sin.
Be careful if you ever find yourself quoting this verse. When this verse is being quoted, very rarely is the anger in question actually “righteous anger.” Usually, it is self-righteous anger, and we are sinfully lashing out at someone who slighted us, and then justifying our anger by calling it “righteous anger.”
OK. If it’s not righteous anger than Christian tenets indict you, not justify you.
8. Cast not your pearls before the swine.
I actually know some Christians who say this. They say that all non-Christians are swine, and should be treated as such. We are only to treat Christians nicely.
>Tssh. This is for those who are bigoted against Christian teaching—don’t try to force it on them.
9. What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.
No. It doesn’t. Enough said.
>Agreed. “You spread out our sins before you–our secret sins–you see them all.” Ps. 90:8
10. Hey, I’m not in church!
As with some of the other excuses above, this excuse reveals a deep-seated misunderstanding of what the church is and how followers of Jesus are supposed to live and function. Church is not a place you go to for a couple hours on Sunday morning. It is not an event at which you temporarily change your clothing and behavior.
Church goes with you wherever you go, and so no matter what you are saying or doing, you are representing Jesus and His church.
>OK, you’re speaking straight.
Bonus: We must please God rather than men.
I love this one, especially when Christians quote it as a way to justify being mean and rude to other people. Somehow the twisted logic is that we can please God by pissing off other people. Or something like that. But I have a feeling that if we are trying to please God and in the process are making friends, family, coworkers, and neighbors hate us, we probably are not pleasing God either.
>Again, you’re speaking straightly.
Hmmmm…. what can I say? Thanks for taking the article so seriously? I won’t try to re-refute your point-by-point refutation of my article.
One of my favorite prayers. “God save me from my fellow Christians hate.” Of course I don’t mean all Christians. But many churches complain about low attendance. My intentions for going to church is to be with others who try to be Christ-like. To hear wonderful music and learn from the message given. However with the clicks, the jealously, they judgements and the money hungry prosperity teaching today, I feel better worshiping at home.
This irritates the church goers in my family. They truly believe I will go the Hell because I refuse to go to church and be abused. I never tell them about my private business either and that really makes them mad. So they gossip and make things up about me. I don’t even try to defend myself anymore because what God knows about me it so much more important than what they say about me. Not fitting in can sometimes be hurtful but at least I can live with myself.
That is very sad. Many church-goers feel that non-church goers are not following Jesus. But as you have found, people can (and do) follow Jesus quite well even if they do not sit in a pew on Sunday morning. One can easily and fruitfully be part of the church without sitting in a building on Sunday.
I saw your post used to advantage by atheistic bloggers. Not sure if that is your belief (suggesting refutation suggests so). In addressing hostile audiences to Christianity, I would suggest the format:
(a) Christian tenet, followed by (b) don’t do X instead.
The reverse just gives fodder to those who are anti-Christians.
Perhaps you thought of taking the example of Jesus when he said, “Woe you hypocrites, …” , He called-out institutionalized holiness “teachers of the law and Pharisees,” not those who are striving yet may fall short. This is not hypocrisy, but weakness.
> “I saw your post used to advantage by atheistic bloggers.”
Because it plays in to our experience. Religion doesn’t make people evil or immoral or hypocrites however it does offer cover for them to behave like that and claim “it’s for Jesus”.
If every (or almost every) Christian behaved like (Mr) Fred Rogers I might consider joining the group. But don’t talk to me about Jesus – I am certain he was a myth and never walked the earth. That’s why I never care WWJD – I ask “What would Fred do?” It really works – try it.
I am an atheist and have been sense I reached the age of reason, And I am so glad my parents didn’t force it down my throat, I try to lead a good life and only need let my conscience be my guide, I have known many people that say they are a born again and to me, that’s my cue to walk the other way.. I have had nothing by bad experiences with any of them.. seemed like the kind of person who smiles at you face to face, and as soon as you turn your back. the next thing you know you are pulling their knifes out of your back.. it’s so sad that they think as what was mentioned above that they can do unspeakable and cruel things to people and it’s ok because they can just say a few hail mary’s and it makes everything ok.. I don’t mean this to bash.. it’s just my opinion. I think religion …all religion is destroying the human race… it has caused more deaths than any of our wars combined and still does to this day.. look what happen to Israel years ago.. some religious nutbag calls math the work of the devil.. So it caused them to regress instead of progress. their culture is over 150 years behind in development to this day. And can you imagine how many great minds were lost because of fear from prosecution and back then that meant DEATH to them and their families.
All of the points above sound exactly like a church that I used to go to. The people in that church environment made it very clear that they did not care about people as much their church and what they could get from people. I wasted probably 15 years of my life at this church. One time, after I wasn’t attending for a while, a woman from this church called me to say that someone in the church died. I did not know who she even was (her name meant nothing to me), and I did not know who the deceased was either. So, it is beyond me why they would automatically expect you to attend a funeral for someone you do not know. I also, find it a bit rude for someone to call and expect you to do something, when they do not take the time to know you or to first make sure that you know who they even are. She even had a snitty tone at the beginning of the phone call, like she is bigger than life. I could tell by her tone that if I dared say that I don’t even know who she was, she would have just said “well, if you would come to church, you sure (as heck) would know who I am (and the deceased). I got nothing from attending there. That is probably why a lot of these churches drop people’s memberships after a few months because the church figures they won’t get anything from them. This church never bothered to call me to hear my side of the story on why I stopped going and doing things for them.
Will there be a follow-up on why Moslems treat others they way they do – you know, the beheadings, immolation, and so on?
Same reason christans killed so many during the Inquisition,
Yea, I’ve been a Christian for 28 years and come to find out the longer I’m a Christian the more backstabbing and lies I found are made behind my back. Biblically speaking this should never happen, but even pastors have treated me in such a way. It’s strange that I still have a strong faith in Christ especially after what they have said and done. They have made me feel worthless and treat me like a criminal when I have done nothing that would justify such action. I of course have made some mistakes, but I do find the whole ordeal frustrating.
Wanted to say something to Christian. Did it occur to you that maybe God doesnt want you to be christian? Maybe you went through all that BS because God was trying to teach you that you dont need Jesus to be a good person. I came to realize that yes people are imperfect and flawed, but some of the kindest people are not Christian! I wonder why that is? Maybe life is trying to teach you something, you just refuse to listen. Jews and Muslims pray to god as they see god, other non christians have their own ideas about god…maybe there is a good reason for it. Everyone sees god in their own way.
I think you missed the number one reason for this behavior. It’s only the conservative so called xians who behave like this. Conservative Christianity says you must vote republican, be sexist, racist, hate gays and Muslims, the highly educated, be judgmental and legalistic, selfish, greedy, ignorant, fearful, anxious, negative, contentious, watch Fox News, etc. In order to be a Christian. All others are going to hell. I go to a mainline protestant church where none of this occurs and there is true love and acceptance. And there a lot less sin in this church as a result. When we focus on the sins of others and too much on sin, we become sinful. When we focus on the love of God, then sin truly dissipates. I will never step foot in a conservative church again.
Gandhi said it best, be the change you want to see in the world. Christians are the same as they have always been, and I for one vow to be a better person than the person I was raised to be. I would like to point out that nobody, even christians dont know what happens to us after we die. Its just an assumption on their parts that they go to heaven, and they might not be right. Anyways, it is better to be a good person now than it is to try to fix yourself later, because later might be too late. Which reminds me, anyone who tries that line, accept Jesus now or it will be too late, should rethink that policy, because if god is so forgiving it wouldnt really matter.
I found this article comically contradictory at best. The fact is 99% of the human population are judgmental, stereotypical hypocrites, not just limited to a single group. Most humans still suffer from an unevolved “tribal” trait of wanting to belong to a certain group, while desperately looking for reasons to hate the other in order to stand out amongst the other groups. It’s sad actually.
In the defense of your “target group,” Christians are human just like you, a human who is judgmental of others not apart of their “tribe” and may stoop so desperately to define separation will resort to hypocrisy. But other Christians, like a fair amount of other humans, try to quiet these urges.
Though most, if not all, humans are guilty of thinking judgmental and hypocritical thoughts, those making up roughly 60% 0f the population who are truly ignorant, narrowminded, with lack of a personal identity (easily manipulated by peers) tend to go to the extreme of blowing the horn of self-righteousness by pointing out the flaws in other groups instead of focusing on their own flaws, which is an increased epidemic in this day in age especially in the age groups of 15 to 33.
I wish you had included something about satan having his own followers peppered among true believers in the church. Wolves in sheep’s clothing, if you will. We will know them by their fruits. If the fruit is rotten, even just a little bit, then it is likely rotten to the core. Then, there are some people who are true believers, but they have a flawed theology. These folks’ fruit may just have a bruise, but once it is removed, their fruit is good. Determining the difference between these two types of people can help salve the pain caused when you are wronged. So the true believer who has been wronged also has a responsibility before condemning an entire organization to not just be “mad” or “hurt” but to examine the ones who hurt them to determine if they are even a true member of “the church.” I have been wronged terribly by fellow believers and by those pretending to be. But it doesn’t reflect on my Jesus, because I have a big beautiful book that tells me what He really looks like.
Reading the replies from others has done much to lift my spirit. I have learned that I am not alone. I’ve been hurt so very badly by various members of my church. These “Christians” behave worse than anyone I have ever encountered outside the church. Shannon’s comments regarding, “wolves in sheep clothing,” is so very true. I was not reared in any church. As a child, I always felt God with me and wanted to learn more about him. My family simply did not attend church. While in college I began attending a local Church of Christ located in North Nashville. It is a very large church. I was there six years prior to deciding to be added to the church. I was comfortable with my decision. Since that time, I’ve noticed leaders, relatives of past generations and founders, and individuals considered “elite” in society are provided extensive privileges over others. These people can say what they want, treat others in the most despicable, cruel and out right evil ways, and their supporters, (friends and other leaders) will justify the wrong doing without any regard to the word of God.
I’ve searched for many years to understand what it is that God desires from me. I have made mistakes, sinned and fallen. During these times, I have not hurt anyone other than myself. I have disappointed GOD, and I have repented. I’ve concluded, that God desires me to be decent, forgiving, compassionate, and kind, but NOT to my own detriment. All these character traits, were taught to me from the beginning of my childhood. It is sad that it has taken me over 20 years to realize my mother, whom by the way, was single, poor, depressed and overlooked, had the decency to rear her children with character traits that are reflective of all that Christ Jesus desires in his followers. What I have learned is Christianity and God are within. I knew God and behaved accordingly years PRIOR TO BEING BAPTIZED OR ATTENDING CHURCH. Once added to the church, I saw evil and misuse of scripture to justify the ill treatment of others.
My faith in Jesus Christ and my ONLY Father, God in heaven, is all I have and all I need. He has always been with me. I have truly forgiven those who have hurt me. For me, forgiveness was easy. However, the continuous ill treatment (bulling behavior), lack of repentance, and arrogance has cleared the clouds enough for me to receive the message. That is, for me to realize a building is not a church, nor is it a congregation simply because it is called one. It is the behavior, the following of scripture, the actions that make it authentic.
It has taken me a number of years and an equal number of attempts to try and look beyond the behavior of the “Christians” in church, to realize that a church unreflective of God’s word, cherry picking which scripture to apply and whom it applies to, is NOT what God desires from his children. It is simply a building…a building with good people and a building with bad people, but still a building. As far as I have learned, as stated by Shannon, there are always wolves, but all it takes is one or two growling wolves, to drown out the timid cries of an entire flock of sheep. I have hurt so badly, tried so hard to understand, followed scripture, and I truly have forgiven. But, I cannot believe God wants anyone to remain connected to a group (not congregation) that simply “states” they are a church without demonstration or at least attempts of demonstrating the expectations that Jesus Christ has of his children.
Simply Me, you may want to read the post “I Hate Church Bullies” from a couple of years ago and the comments and discussions on the post: https://redeeminggod.com/?s=church+bullies
I tried reconnecting with my estranged father who became a Southern Baptist when he married my step-mother. I was recently diagnosed with MS and my father had prostate cancer so I thought it was time he and I buried the hatchet. The past few years, I have made the effort to travel and see my dad, keep in more regular contact. My dad and step-mom would make me feel welcome in their actions, but would make weird, negative comments out of no where as if I was doing something wrong? Several times we would be out in public and would run across acquaintances of theirs. No one would introduce me, make eye contact with me or acknowledge my existence which I found very odd and had never before experienced. I was raised Catholic, my father’s choice, and was never interested in converting. My father met my step-mother, converted and moved away. Even though he begrudgingly paid child support, I grew up without my father. I would have never opened myself up to emotional hurt, especially while dealing with MS, if I would have known I would never have been treated equally because I am not a Southern Baptist? I know that their church is their social life. I know their church helped them out financially. I know that a lot of church members also live in my dad and step-mom’s same subdivision…I just didn’t know that regardless of the circumstances, at no point in my life would I have been accepted as a part of my father’s new life with my step-mom unless I joined her church. I still have good memories of my father before he married my step mom, which are comforting. God is my true father, the father who is always available, the father who is eternally there, a honest father who does not play games.
Dee..that’s a beautiful thing to say…about our true Father…and He is our anchor when beset and besieged, by others and ourselves sometimes..It doesn’t matter where we go or don’t go..what we do or don’t do …for most things will seem wrong and askew here..until we get home. The more *we* that are called, try to make sense of this place, the more despondent we can become. This is not our home and we are strangers in this place..I can rest easy on that and on my beloved. May we all meet again..when we are truly home. Until that time..just have faith and try not to become so entangled in what we see as being rights and wrongs…for we know so little…..Love……x
This sort of entitlement and illusion that “fake Christians” have is exactly why I am proud to be a fire brand atheist. There are good people who do good things, bad people who do bad things. Christianity should be kept at home and I think children should not be pushed (indoctrinated) into any religion. Let them grow up and get a sense of the world on their own. They are going to become the person they are to become with or without you shoving any type of theology down their throats. Christianity has become simply another business model especially in America. People say churches do so much good, that is true in individual situations but in the grand scheme of things those people who gather and donate at church could just as easily donate to a charity in their community without the stigma of going to a church where someone else “interprets” and “cherry picks” the bible for people. Most people I know are only Christian when something bad happens, or they really want that new car or promotion, otherwise they live their life like I do as an atheist. The social stigma of being an atheist or ill will from family members I think is the ONLY reason most people even refer to a god. Christianity was just something that was real when I was a kid because it was such a normal thing. It is time for that to change. I absolutely loathe that Christians cherry pick certain passages from the bible to assert their own personal opinion and morals. Being anti-gay because the bible says so is what I hear so often but what about the part where it says he without sin shall cast the first stone? The bible is full of hypocrisy and the people in today’s society I think have actually shed most of their belief but it’s the eternity in hell that still gets people. The whole Pascal’s wager which some people haven’t even heard of is a premise that if I am wrong as an atheist, I spend an eternity in hell. If Christians are right then they get to live in Heaven and live happily ever after. The problem with this is one of two things in my opinion. Issue #1: This notion of 50/50 is understandable in a world where there is only one religion. The problem is what if Christians are wrong about WHICH god is real? There are easily over 2500 various gods and deities and for Christians to really think they are so privileged and “righteous” is laughable. Issue #2: These same Christians who say that I am going to hell along with all the non-believers and the people who follow all the other religions. All the gay people are going to hell. Do they not forget all the sins they commit? Greed? Vanity? Many people show up to church with those fancy new clothes to look nice, your telling me that you sit down every night and seriously repent DEEP in your heart that god surely knows you repent the fact that you like to get your hair done and have those nice new clothes and big fancy house? Sin is sin. So I guess I will see 99.8% of the population in hell if I am wrong. I do not think people understand how devoid of life Heaven will be with no sin. This god of the bible is not someone I would want to worship and if I am wrong Satan most likely is running hell and has higher yelp reviews than god. People in social media passing around stories of heartache asking for prayers when it is a proven fact that prayers do not work at all. I agree that to someone who believes, a prayer when they are at their lowest can lift their spirits and I understand that, it’s a placebo effect. I envision a world in the future where religion has receded to a more personal level and not so main stream allowing society to evolve where it has been held back for so long. Where humans have made giant leaps in genetics and medicine so we live to be 300 years old and healthy. Super clean technology and expanding into the universe to branch out and really truly become a better species of human. We won’t have countries and borders and turmoil amongst ourselves. It will be amazing, it’s too sad I will not get to see this in my life because people cannot free their minds. I want to envision my children being a part of my vision of a unified world. People say we will never get to that point and I say it’s because people think it’s impossible and are unwilling to try. I live my life in the hope that I am helping this idea no matter how crazy it is to come to fruition because otherwise we are living an infinitesimal life and what is the point. I want something better for my kids and humanity. I have accepted that when I die I am going to be gone, I will cease to exist, my conscious will die with my brain. That does not limit my ability to see the branches of my family into the future and knowing they will one day look back and say their father was one of the few people who believed we could achieve so much. I will still be talked about and my memory will bring nothing but smiles and happy memories. This is why I feel the way I do and I encourage anyone reading this to really think about life and beyond the day to day. I really would like to be a part of something fantastic and I think simply starting the conversation and getting people to think a little more is my calling. Life is hard and I know people have so much to do but all I ask is think about it. Thank you everyone for your time and this is no way to offend anyone I cannot stress that enough. I simply want someone who has doubts to sit down and read the bible and think about it. Then determine if there is no god how should we as a species live our lives? It is quite a thing to think about but intellectually challenging. Once you are not afraid to die even though dying means I will cease to exist, think of it as the nanosecond you fall asleep and then wake up in the morning. You don’t really remember sleeping so dying will be the same as falling asleep except there will be no realization the next day that you were sleeping. It really will not matter because in the 8 hours you were sleeping and only existed in your bedroom the world continues to move without you. Release those shackles and the world will suddenly become a much more beautiful place and one that you should feel an inherent need to protect and better especially when you have kids who have no idea how bad things really are. It is our generations turn to carve out a place in history.
Justin, we can identify with many of the things you say. “Christian” religion often does not look like Jesus. Many people have and do use it to advance their personal agendas, just as happens with other religions. Those of us who follow Jesus cringe at much of what is said and done in the name of Christianity. We also cringe at the ways the Bible is used to support almost anything someone can think of.
However, we think that none of those things disprove that Jesus was who he claimed to be. Deciding if he was the Son of God is admittedly a personal decision. However, even if you think he was just another guy, maybe you would agree that if we follow his teachings we will be better for it, as will be the world around us. Unfortunately many who claim to be part of the religion seem to have invented their own version of Christianity to serve their own purposes, rather than loving God and others in line with what Jesus said. Some of the angriest people we have known claim to be Christians. Follow “Christian” blogs and read the comments and you will find these people. We don’t think they look like Jesus. However, we don’t think that disproves god and that he put in an appearance on earth in a real human body to show us who he really is, as opposed to the explanations of religion. If he is who he claimed to be, if he did rise from the dead, then we can choose to believe him when he says that this life is not the end. We too shall live.
Look at Jesus, not Christians.
My heart hurts reading so much venom here. The truth of the matter is simple. Love God with your whole heart whole mind and whole soul and love your neighbor as you love yourself. The definition of Christian is to be CHRIST-LIKE. So a Christian is one who imitates the life of Jesus. If we fail to live as Christ we cannot in all honesty call ourselves Christian. Christ love is pure love. To be a loving Christian as a human is to be in a constant state of repentance for acts that are unChrist-like. There is no room for excuses. It’s also not about what he or she did or didn’t do for me. It’s about loving in spite of. So if you stop going to church because you were hurt, remember what Jesus really did for you.
FATHER, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still not my will but yours be done. Maybe we need you back to be the true Christian example we so desperately need. Not out if spite or what you need but what the Church needs – bring back the LOVE.
Agreed. May we all follow Jesus’ greatest commandment. Unfortunately, many have been poorly treated by people who call themselves Christians. Maybe they are Christians. Maybe not. I don’t think we really know. However, whether people have actually been harmed by Christians or if it is merely a matter of what some might call a “persecution complex”, should we not allow those who feel they have been mistreated a chance to tell their stories?
Regarding those who have stopped “going to church”, we have seen many who have not abandoned Christ, but rather have left to follow Jesus in the world. That may not be the way you have chosen to follow Jesus, but there are many of us who have chosen to take Jesus and church to the dark corners of this world, to those who would never consider darkening the doors of what you might call “church”. How shall they hear lest we go to them with the love of Christ?
“There are good people who do good things, bad people who do bad things. Christianity should be kept at home and I think children should not be pushed (indoctrinated) into any religion. Let them grow up and get a sense of the world on their own. ”
This is one of the most idiotic theory. There isn’t a “blank state” of a person, or a “neutral state”. If you don’t educate your children in one way, they will be educated by the media, the street, etc etc. How do you think they’ll “get a sense of the world”?
Atheism is a world-view, too. Stop deceiving yourself. And “keep it at home”.
“Christianity has become simply another business model especially in America. ”
Christianity is about following Christ, not other Christians.
“The social stigma of being an atheist or ill will from family members I think is the ONLY reason most people even refer to a god. ”
Sure, other than that atheism is such a nice belief system. It’s so comforting to believe you appeared by a random accident, you evolved from chimps and you will die sooner or later and it doesn’t matter. It’s so comforting to believe that you can do anything, the fittest will survive and this is all it matters. Because of that you can have so much trust in the people around you, knowing that they might rape you, or kill you, or rob you at any moment.
“I absolutely loathe that Christians cherry pick certain passages from the bible to assert their own personal opinion and morals.’
Then follow Christ and the good, true Christians (there are many), not the bad ones. Do you know any field with no bad people? I don’t. I know many good and noble Christians, who sacrificed themselves for others, but I don’t know a single atheist like that.
“Being anti-gay because the bible says so is what I hear so often but what about the part where it says he without sin shall cast the first stone?”
And because the biology says so. Naming a sin and rejecting it is different than “casting stones”. Why do you think God gave laws and punishments, if there is no one on Earth to respect them (all are sinners and cannot cast stones)? The passage you mentioned has another meaning. And Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery “go and sin no more”, not “go, you didn’t do anything wrong, be proud of it”.
“The bible is full of hypocrisy and the people in today’s society I think have actually shed most of their belief but it’s the eternity in hell that still gets people.”
Of course, when you don’t understand something, it’s Bible’s fault, not yours. There isn’t an “eternity in hell” anywhere in the Bible. For that to happen, the punished must become immortal. But it’s very clear they won’t get immortality.
“There are easily over 2500 various gods and deities and for Christians to really think they are so privileged and “righteous” is laughable. ‘
Your ignorance is laughable, if you don’t see any difference between those so called gods. Anyway, it’s up to you and your conscience. Also, the logic “there are 2499 lies, so it means a truth don’t exist” is more than laughable. It’s ridiculous.
“All the gay people are going to hell. Do they not forget all the sins they commit? Greed? Vanity?”
And your point is?? If you are going to hell and they are going too, will you be happier? Nobody says “only gays are going to hell”.
“So I guess I will see 99.8% of the population in hell if I am wrong.”
Sure, because you know 99.9% of the population…
“I do not think people understand how devoid of life Heaven will be with no sin. ”
Relax, nobody forces you to go there. I don’t think you understood what Heaven is and what sin is.
“This god of the bible is not someone I would want to worship”
God is the source of life, and at the end, he will set you free (of life). He won’t force you to worship Him. You’ll get what you want, don’t you worry.
“Satan most likely is running hell and has higher yelp reviews than god.”
That is just advertising.
“it is a proven fact that prayers do not work at all”
It is proven by idiots. You can’t possibly prove that.
“Where humans have made giant leaps in genetics and medicine so we live to be 300 years old and healthy.”
Such a leap, yet people die of cancers, depression, suicides and other old and new diseases. The planet is destroyed at an alarming rate. Also people on the highest levels in all the fields are corrupted. People lie, steal, rob, kill, rape etc etc etc. No “leap” in the morality field. But you still believe SF movies.
“We won’t have countries and borders and turmoil amongst ourselves. It will be amazing, it’s too sad I will not get to see this in my life because people cannot free their minds.”
Keep dreaming. When you’ll wake up, maybe you will see THE REALITY. The society is going down, not up.
“I want something better for my kids and humanity.”
Why? They will also die, and that’s it. Why bother?
“Release those shackles and the world will suddenly become a much more beautiful place and one that you should feel an inherent need to protect and better especially when you have kids who have no idea how bad things really are. It is our generations turn to carve out a place in history.”
The problem is that when the effects of the drugs fade out, you must face REALITY. The effects of the way of living you promote are not the one you dream of, but the opposite. It has been already tried and failed, if you care to read some history.
Hi! I agree with mostly everything you say. How would Jesus treat the gay community? Something tells me he would treat them with love and grace. But there are a couple of things that I have to disagree with.
You said: 1. And Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery “go and sin no more”, not “go, you didn’t do anything wrong, be proud of it”.
You must understand what Jesus did was revolutionary at that time. She should have been stoned to death. But what he did was offer his love and grace by blessing her with the Holy Spirit, giving her another chance at life. In many ways she was cured of that sin. So what he meant was “go and you are now free from this sin”. Jesus was not irresponsible, he would not let her go on her way without being filled the Holy Spirit.
2.”but I don’t know a single atheist like that” when referring to any sort of good works.
You do not have to be part of a religious affliliation to do good works. I know countless athiets who are are more loving, forgiving, generous, non-judgmental than many of the Christians and leaders in my congregation. I have two atheist friends who travel around the world as volunteers helping and building poor communities. So what you say is a little far-fetched.
Now you may say “I doubt you are a Christian, because you would not be friends with an atheist!” Didn’t Jesus hang out with prostitutes, tax collecters and criminals?
I know I come late to this discussion thread, and I do agree with the author’s points. But from my life experience I would like to add three points:
1) The G. K. Chesterton’s quotation: “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.” I say this not meaning to accuse others, but to accuse the bulk of Christians including myself. Looking back I now realize I have been uncaring and unfeeling and self-indulgent an infinite number of times, and even though now I am trying to do better, my best efforts go wrong on a daily basis. As John Piper wrote once, the Holy Spirit needs to work from the inside out by making us humble, and from the outside in making us see the truth and love and power of God. Most Christians, including myself, do not cooperate well with this kind of transformation, and this is sad but true.
2) In my opinion, the easiest way to prove my 1st point above is to just look at drivers on highways. Many weave in and out of lanes at very high speeds sometimes in bad weather and/or text on cell phones or drink and drive, risking harm to others and possibly destroying families. At least in my country, statistically speaking, an awful lot of them must be Christians (by name at least). The harm they are risking and the physical fear they are causing others is far worse than most of the immoralities that pastors preach about.
3) In my opinion it boils down to truth. These days everything is supposed to be relative, politically correct and flexible. I find that funny because that’s not what the universe is like. I find Christianity, at its heart, has that interesting quality of truth. I’m not saying factual or historical or practical or provable or even followed by many people (in reality). I am saying that I believe it to be true. As a science-fiction reader I am always amazed that some people will say that a book brings into focus human nature and future trends and a possible scheme for the salvation of the human race from our own self-destructiveness. But if you make the same claims for a religion that’s been followed (granted, often poorly) for a couple thousand years, then it’s looked upon with skepticism.
In short, I think humans ruin things by their nature, and they even ruin things that are meant to (or at least have the potential to) save them. They ruin it on a personal level and an institutional level. I would recommend the C. S. Lewis book “Mere Christianity” for a calm look at the topic.
My two cents.
I agree with the article and would add that one category that is missing: the way church leaders treat their people in terms of allowing them to serve in ministries. Add to that the fact that if you question their leadership decisions, values, the way they spend money etc. you end up getting blacklisted and labeled as a troublemaker. Of course, they won’t come directly to you (as in Matt. 18) to work it out and reconcile; they just won’t allow you to do anything in the church without ever saying a word to you about it. Ironically I teach my ministry students that as leaders they should follow Eph. 4’s model of leaders equipping the saints to do the work of ministry. But I’m fed up with leaders who are such controlling people that they won’t allow anybody else to do the “important” jobs in the church. Goodbye church… and I’m not looking back. I don’t even know why I care about the church, but for some reason I still do.
I have only one thing to say on this subject. If a person does the things above I question if they are true Christians. I wonder if they have read their bible and prayed for understanding. Maybe they have only listened to the preacher and he has taught them wrong. Our Lord is all about love and we are suppose to be like him. Of course we can only try to be. It isn’t that Christians are above doing wrong they do. They have to set a example because we are looked upon to do the right thing. But when they do wrong and are a true believer you better believe they know the minute they have. The Lord whips them and they can’t forget the wrong they have done. It rolls over and over in their minds. They have to go to that person and tell them what they have done wrong and ask them to forgive them. There is no peace until it is done. I am afraid to many people play at being a Christian and don’t realize maybe they need to get back on their knees. I am sorry that the above things have happened to others. It breaks my heart. But I have been treated wrong by some who think they do no wrong. Just pray for them that their eyes and hearts are opened. The flesh is weak but being mean is something else.
As fellow brothers and sisters, we are called of our Heavenly Father to care for one another, to succor the wounds of one and another. This extends to those who are not of our fold. Those who know not Jesus Christ, or even our own names.
8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—
This particular scripture is of prodound importance to me:
26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.
Notice how it says WANTS. This means, going above their needs. Fulfilling a need, might sustain their body and their life. But fulfilling their wants, might improve their perspective, and attitude. If they need 1 glass of water to make it to tomorrow, but they want 2 glasses of water, why can we not do such a thing? 2 glasses, might save this person, and succor their wounds.
This scripture makes it obvious: You cannot be saved, while not caring for others. If you do not care for others, you are not saved, and their is no excuse or prayer that will ever change that.
I was saved in my teens and now I am 60 years of age. All my life there has been criticisim and rejection from churches and fellow Christians. I chose to remain single and never wanted children. What a freak, right? I was turned away from my church’s Christmas party because I was single. I’ve also been spoken to very nastily by other women in the church. I assume because they thought I wanted their husbands. I didn’t even want my own husband, why would I want yours? When I skipped a few services another woman called to tell me that God told her to call and advise me that I was disobediant. When I said, but you’re not going to church either, she stated that it was ok for her to skip church because she was married. I’ve also had men, that I hardly knew, tell me that I had to submit to all men. Excuse me? I don’t think so. Am I on planet Earth or have I dropped into the Twilight zone? With all due respect, I am done with Church, done with Christians, and as much as it pains me, done with the God of the bible. No religion or belief system should cause such emotional pain or drive someone to contemplate suicide.
Jean, yes, some “churches” and “Christians” are like that. I think of them as odd third-cousins and wonder if they’re really part of the family.
We’ve had similar experiences. One example: The head “elder” at a church we attended at one time told me I needed to be rebaptized (they counted how many people got baptized every year for some report or the other), and that I needed to submit to his authority. When he discovered that I knew the Bible and theology better than he did when I pointed out the fallacy of his demands, he got angry and never spoke to us again. As you might note, that was about bean-counting and his attempt to assert his “authority”.
Get away from such people. From what you have written, apparently you have. So have we. Yes, it’s easy to chuck the entire God, church, Bible and religion thing. But it’s also possible when you step back a bit to recognize people like that for what they are, and divorce ourselves from them and remain connected to Jesus. Read about Jesus in the Bible, about how he treated people. If self-described Christians behave otherwise, move along. No need to try to reason with them or to try to figure out their motives or if they’re even what they claim to be. Find green pastures, not fields of stinkweed.
You are better off for leaving those controlling, manipulative situations. Your last line is right on target. Jesus wants us to fully become who He made us to be …
I read quite a few comments and after thinking of how I believe in God I wanted to ask a question and post a statement. My statement is I love Jesus and believe he is the creator of the world and our Savior but I do not believe in Christian ways so my question is what am I called? I do love God I am somewhat a Christian I do not go to church, almost every Christian I have met are rude, cruel and down right judgmental and I support gay rights which I know Christians do not. I don’t want to be called a Christian if I don’t like the ways Christians believe in ways of honoring God. (I know I didn’t provide much detail and my grammar isn’t accurate. I am not great at explaining things. Bear with me.)
I sometimes think that Christians are just as mean, hypocritical and judgmental towards other Christians than we are to non-Christians. We forget that we are the light of the world and are suppose to set an example for other believers and for those we are trying to teach about Jesus. I have to catch myself many times and ask God to forgive me for my behavior. No, we are not perfect but we are representatives of Jesus, so we must behave as children of God. I do know some Christians who are filled with so much pride that they will never admit when they are wrong and will never apologize for hurting another person. Our main purpose in life should be to honor God and to do his will, love God and love others just as we love ourselves.
when it comes to Christians who are two faced, gossipy, or think they for some abnormal reason can tell you what you should be reading or doing etc ect…… always tell them that is NOT what God wants for me , I have my own personal relationship with him and NOT through a third person…. and as for there gossiping …… It is NOT scriptural God hasn’t told anyone to do it or to listen to it…… which is usually followed by them saying… ah we all do it…. Really???? then don’t ….. we all stand or fall before God on Judgement day and if it’s a continual sin your likely to fall into Gods governmental dealing…. and you won’t get out of it………………….. another thing people say is……. The bible is written by man not God……………. oh please..(.but not a Christian answer, usually none Christian that one)…..It’s led by the holy spirit through man to write it….. it’s not difficult to understand…. and yes there will always be some who say… but times have changed blah de blah…. it doesn’t fit………….. YES it does, it’s just people who say it have absolutely no understanding….. the Bible is same today as when first accomplished…. it is GOD’S word…… but just the fact some people don’t like it that’s all…. but we all have a choice……. God Bless XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx
Very confronting. If we are all founded on Gods spirit we are all precious and the same but confused and hurt. Maybe that is why we hurt each other but God doesn’t let us down. Don’t forget the betrayal and treatment Jesus experienced from people yet he still chose to die for us.
Have you ever heard the saying “Going to church and calling yourself a Christian is like going in the garage and calling yourself a car.”?
The cruelty and exclusivity of some groups claiming to be “Christian” is appalling. For all those who have been hurt and taken advantage of by these artificial congregations, I send you my love-sincerely.
If you are not kind. You are not a Christian, period.
You can drink the blood of christ and eat the flesh of christ.
You can get on your knees and pray.
You can volunteer to build homes in impoverished countries.
But if you are unkind to humankind as a rule.
You are not a Christian.
Granted, everyone has “bad days”. Some are struggling. Some off-looks or mistreatment you may have received were unintentional or misguided due to personal conflicts. To error is human, most Christians look to god to improve their ill-considered ways.
For these things they repent. To be human is to constantly stumble. The mindful seek to learn from their mistakes. So every fall along the way is turned into a valuable lesson.
Maybe how they treated you, one day, will be a valuable lesson to them. Maybe someday how they treated you- they will be treated that same way and they will see how cruel they have been.
Either way, I would not put any stock in the way that these individuals have treated you.
There are genuinely good Christians out there.
You are one of them.
You’re not going to let their turned up noses overshadow Divine Light are you?
You’re strong after all. You are not made of glass, you can take life’s knocks. You cake take their criticism, their malicious actions, their mirage of the perfect Christian.
These challenges are here to make you strong.
Remain steadfast under trial.
I am so different from the rest of the people at my church. When I first started there, I accepted every thing everyone said as gold, instead of comparing it to Scripture. I never questioned any of it…I went in blindly. I got caught up in “reformed” culture, reading dead guys and puritans and quoting John Calvin and becoming hyper spiritual. After being there for a year, I got married. My marriage started having issues and we asked for help. All of the advice we’ve been given almost caused us to split because no one was willing to give us actual solid marriage advice for the problems we were having. The only Christians who helped us with our marriage issues were my parents who live in a different state and have no affiliation with our church. I no longer talk to anyone at church about any issues we have because it is automatically the wife’s fault or responsibility to make it right. Every wife has been told to be her husband’s cheerleader and do everything he says without question, but the husbands are never questioned. According to one wife, she had to apologize to her husband for having an opinion. Another wife says her husband only wants to have sex and doesn’t want to talk to her. Is that a Christian husband? I can’t go into all the details, but other people have visited our church and have left saying the message was sexist. I no longer pretend to agree. I recently was approached by a wife in our church that I do not have a close relationship with and never have. We just never clicked. She gave me the cold shoulder for the longest time when I started there, despite my attempts to be friendly and bridge the gap. Recently she approached me and bombarded me with a bunch of questions about how I’m treating my husband, how I’m talking to him….mind you, I am also going through a very hard time right now with pregnancy and am very physically weak and sick…she has done this to other people before too…I was taken aback by her questions. There were no grounds for her to ask and no advice had been sought from her. She admitted to me she had based it off of something I posted on facebook, an article and a quote about husbands. It had nothing to do with my husband, but she assumed it did and thought she would exorcise my bad wife demons by questioning me and making sure I’m living right. I have many other examples of this kind of thing that have gone on but I’m just too tired anymore to care about it. I would just like to leave.
I don’t however blame God. I can’t. Not after the love He has shown me, after all the years of my life I ignored Him. I can only wonder what I am supposed to learn from this or what it is preparing me for. I don’t feel like a victim. I just don’t enjoy being surrounded by people who are into marital cultural traditions that reflect the thinking of the 50s rather than what the bible says. I haven’t decided to leave my faith or God….I know there must be a reason why I am so alienated by these people….God will show me the reason….
Might it be time to find your place among followers of Jesus who concentrate on following Jesus, loving others, and helping those who need help rather than among those who spend their time worrying about “marital cultural traditions” and similar things?
Cher … it is possible to leave the church you are “attending” while at the same time becoming more active and involved in the Church as the Body of Christ. I am not saying you SHOULD do this, but know that there are about millions of people around the world right now who have done this very thing. They stop attending church on Sunday morning so they can better BE the church in their community and neighborhood. Feel free to search this blog (using the search area at the bottom) for “be the church” and similar terms.
I’m sorry this has happened to you. Make sure your husband knows and let him support you and protect you. Together you are a strong team.
That wife=second-class citizen teaching has done the rounds here too. I know it’s hard when you’re pregnant, but that rude lady has dug a deep pit that, scripturally, she risks falling into; and she risks facing the judgement on herself that she tried to pour out on you. I would rather be you than her.
This once would have been my critique of the church in Australia, but things have changed as our culture has become more secularised and selfish.
My person opinion is that it’s starting to take more commitment to go to church and be labelled a Christian. I now meet very few churchgoers who (from the commentary on this page) might be facing serious trouble when the sheep-goat thing happens, or the accounting for every stray word time comes (let alone the millstone thing for people who lead children astray). The more difficult people, as we could call them, seem to have stopped going to church.
It could be because the church no longer offers social progress, so love of money and power take people elsewhere (which is politics in this town, and there’s another story!).
“6. They’re not Christians. … Those outside the family of God can be slandered, abused, and swindled.”
Perhaps the cause of this is the Christian tenet that people should be punished based on what they do or don’t believe. In fact, a recent study shows that religious children tend to prefer harsher punishments toward others than non-religious children. Maybe if you rid yourselves of this harmful paradigm, you would stop this behavior.
http://www.oregonlive.com/faith/2015/11/religious_kids_are_harsher_and.html
Thanks for posting this article. I’m glad I’m not the only Christian who is (beyond) frustrated with the way some other Christians behave. I’ve talked to a lot of people this week who were burned by the Church or by Christians. Their view of God is either that He is not good, He is not powerful, or He is not real. It grieves me to hear about people who take Christ’s name and yet throw mud on it with their words and actions. It’s diametrically opposed to what Jesus taught! It’s completely against what the Bible teaches! It’s hard to know how to understand this issue. I’m so sorry to everyone who has suffered pain from someone who says they follow Jesus. I hope you won’t give up on God because of people who don’t know how to treat other people. I really don’t get it.
Hi my name is Lindsey and I’m recovering heroin addict and my mother is a very devoted rightous Christian her favorite saying is I am the head and not the tail meaning she is the head is far better than me and I am the tail and because the way Christians have treated me recently through my struggle I have felt that I should convert to Hinduism when I brought this up to my mother she told me I will go to hell because Jesus is the only God which I do believe to an extent but I also believe in having peace within your own life and treating others equally fairly with love respect and dignity which my mother and my sister do not do the act as though they are better than anyone they do not sin they do not make mistakes and they are perfect in every way another one of her favorite sayings I’m not perfect but I’m going to try to be BC Jesus loves me that much. I love Jesus and I do feel that he had died for each and everyone of our sins and I feel we are all loved equally no matter what we do rather it be for murder to just plain old coursing He loves us all honestly I’ve debated in my mind that if Christianity is about being mean hateful and thinking that you’re going around better than everybody then that’s not the religion for me
Peace Lindsey. I would only ask that you think about the difference between power and hate. Hate is the opposite of love, but is usually very obvious.
There are people who seem to hate me but also seem to avoid me and if they are doing things against me (maybe talking bad about me) I have not heard or seen that.
But there are people who try to control me and that is usually quite obvious. Some have a right to, and if they have my best interest in mind (one aspect of love) then their need to control me is not usually a problem.
But there are people who want to control me for their own reasons and they have no right to, and have no interest in my needs. That is both obvious and very difficult to deal with, because to find peace in that situation requires you to partially become their slave.
To bring this back to Jesus Christ, keep in mind how much of his life required him to deal with abuse of power as opposed to hate. Those who wanted to control Jesus were political leaders (Roman, national), religious leaders, revolutionaries (zealots), his own disciples (who wanted places at his right and left side, or wanted control of the “purse” or send the children away or punish specific people). Many people tried to kill him or take away his reputation or imprison him. Which of those also hated him? Hard to say.
So my point is this. Those who try to control us can think they are doing right, we cannot change their minds, but they leave us no peace. Also, they try to control us through fear, and fear drives out peace. But those who love us try to avoid scaring us. And those who hate us sometimes just avoid us and do not cause us any fear, just discomfort at being hated. So clearly the power and quest for control is the great enemy of love and peace. Just as it was for Jesus, who ultimately reset the balances and showed us a new way. Imagine what the world over the last two thousand years would have been like if it had just been left to those who wanted power at all costs. They caused enough damage and death as it is.
So yes, Christ called for love of God and our brothers and sisters. But as his own life demonstrated, there can be no love whether there can be no peace. So once again I wish you peace, and will prayer for you. Please pray for me.
For the record, the text of my comment above was changed without my permission. Although the general idea of my original reply remains, many ideas have been changed. I am sorry, but I will not post to this forum again.
But I will continue to pray for you Lindsey!
I didn’t edit your comment … but even if I had, the site’s comment policy allows comments to be edited or moderated for any reason. https://redeeminggod.com/comment-policy/
From our end we can see the history of the comment. Our spam checker put it in spam. We approved it this morning. No one changed anything about the comment. What shows here is word-for-word the comment we received.
It appears you are trying to act in good faith, and so in good faith I will post what I cut and pasted into my Evernote account from my posting (AFTER it appeared on screen). I cannot explain how my comment changed so significantly with you having no record of it. As for you being permitted to change comments, what you are permitted to do and what it is fair to do I leave to your judgment.
Peace Lindsey. I tried posting this reply before but it did not seem to take, so if it ends up being a duplicate, sorry.
Please think Christ’s life and the difference between peace, love, hate and control. In my opinion his biggest problem, was peace and control.
There are people who hate me and seem to totally avoid me. They may be doing things behind my back but I have not heard that. So peace can exist with hate to some extent.
Many others want to control me. Some have a right to (police, teachers, spouse) and when they only have my best interest or the best interest of all involved at heart, there can still be peace. So reasonable control can exist with peace.
But unreasonable control and destructive hate usually try to turn us into slaves of the other people. Slaves to their needs for us to do things, or to their opinions of how we should change.
Christ dealt with many people trying to kill or control him, from before he was born to three days after his death. Some examples: Roman leaders, Jewish political and religious leaders, revolutionaries, his extended family, the rich, etc. Even his own disciples wanted places at his right and left hand, wanted control of the “purse”, wanted him to not associate with the wrong kinds of people, wanted him to soften his message.
Control works through fear, and fear drives out peace. Those who love us usually try to avoid scaring us, and try to show us how to see a situation so that we make the best decision, as opposed to following their decision without question.
Think of how little people the world would have today if we only had the control freaks and haters running it, without any “way” out. As Jesus said, he is the “Way, the Truth and the Life”. Where does overbearing power and control fit into that?
Again I wish you peace Lindsey. I will remember you in my prayers, please pray for me.
Thankfully, Christianity is not about being mean and hateful and thinking you’re better than everyone else. Sadly, this is how many Christians actually live…
If you look at Jesus, though, this is not how He lived. I believe your interest in Hinduism might actually be tied to an interest in living as Jesus lived. I would recommend you not become a Hindu, but instead leave all the hate and judgmentalism and rules of Christianity behind and follow Jesus into simplicity and love. You don’t need a religion to do this. You don’t need to attend a building on some day of the week. You don’t need to read certain “holy” books or say certain “holy” words. Just love Jesus (as you already do) and let Him lead you to love others.
Well said Jeremy Myers !!
I really appreciate you taking the time and thought to write this. I had felt as though I was so unworthy in some Christians eyes. I kept trying to do the right things to no avail and when I’d stand up for what I thought was wrong, or the right thing to do, well you can imagine. I am so sorry to say that when I meet someone for the first time and they tell me they are Christian, I am very much on guard. This is a shame.
So, Today I know there is a Higher Power that I don’t have to go to church to talk with and listen for. I try my best to behave the way they would want me to. I also wait for someone to ask me about my beliefs. And that always makes my heart swell and eyes water when they do.
Thanks Again
Fran, yes, that is my experience also. I find that if someone offers the information upon meeting them that they are a Christian, they usually have some sort of agenda for telling this to me.
Jeremy I am almost embarrassed at how many times I’ve been back to this article. (and comments) I had some hard hate inside me. The hate from the pain caused by family and others, who wear religion like a ~weapon~ and justification for bad behavior.
Just wanted to let you know, the hate/pain is easing up. Thank you.
I am laughing (ok maybe crying a little), because I said in anger to my youngest sister the other day, “I am human, I make mistakes,” and then continued my angry rant! I know I had valid points to make – but I was really laying into her and she was crying (really kicked her while she was down!).
I am so able to show Christian love to people outside my family! But God has been used as a weapon so often in my Evangelical family; that we are so callous toward each other. And the funny thing is that I feel so enlightened after reading your article, that once I post this link on my FB page – – I am hoping my family sees themselves and will apologize to me for all the hurtful things they said – AGAIN LOL or maybe COL (cry out loud)!
Hoping for a way to bring this full circle for anyone reading this comment – but honestly, I’m a constant work in progress! And I have mud on my face when it comes to my family! I have a huge wall up – and when I let it down towards them – I feel vulnerable and really only God can help me! Pray for me!
Now that you’ve recognized the problem (“God has been used as a weapon so often in my Evangelical family”), you can work on it. Isn’t it amazing how religion is so often used as a weapon, whether it’s against our own families or others? Could it be that religion is only our excuse for our unloving actions towards others? Consider the way Jesus could have responded to the people he encountered, such as the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery, as opposed to the way he did respond. It seems his unkindest words were reserved for the religious people who showed no love in their actions toward and treatment of others.
I think many of us are in the same situation. We are all works in progress. Make sure you forgive yourself, thank God for His love and forgiveness, and ask your sister for forgiveness as well. Do not expect others to apologize to you, as (most often) that is not going to happen. But you can still forgive them. After all, your forgiveness of them is more for you than for them.
I was adopted and raised in a devout Christian family, and witnessed 15 years of the cruelest, most disturbing behavior I’ve ever seen. Eventually I had to leave and cut off contact, the toxicity was literally tearing my life and sanity to pieces. It’s unfortunate but its left me with a tainted impression of Christians and religious people as a whole, that I just can’t seem to shake 🙁 I feel awful for it.
BTW when I say “cruel”, I mean absolute CRUELTY. Violence, physical abuse, outright theft, blatant lies fabricated purely to cause damage to others. Unconditional love did not exist here. Nobody was off limits. The majority of my mother’s family was this way. I’ve honestly never seen anything like it.
And it didn’t stop there… It has been that way to some degree (never quite that extent though) with EVERY supposed Christian I’ve ever know…. It just seems like to them, people are disposable “things” to be tossed away at their whim at the slightest offense or inconvenience… They are superior, and will make sure you know it.
That’s just been my experience all my life, growing up going to church 4times a week… I have yet to have anyone SHOW otherwise regardless of what they preach. It makes me sad.
“I received a personal revelation from god to do it, because you are unrighteous.”
I know a woman who, when her son came out as a gay man, called his christian college, told them. This occurred during the 2nd semester of his Junior year. She emptied his childhood bedroom, sent everything to the dump, changed the locks on the house, and didn’t tell him until he called to try and figure out why he had been expelled without warning or explanation.
The above quote is what she said to him, and then she hung up. He was summarily excommunicated from his church, and disowned by almost his entire family and community.
Yes. that’s a big one! The personal messages from God to one person about someone else. Usually these are just someone using God to justify their own wishes or feelings.
I have seen things that defy imagination of the corruption I have seen in the so-called Christian Church.. I am working on posting various situations (without specific names) for now. From out-right theft, manipulations, adultery, etc. Of course we are dealing with sinner, as we are all. But it is a mind-set that some take that they are better than someone else.. Or because of financial status – they have the right to treat bad.
Adding to my comment.. I am in the media business. I witness some things that some others would have no clue about some times.. It eats at my heart to know of on-going situations where people are getting ripped off. A few times when I confront the perpetrator tries to turn it the other way.. I have seen Pastors litterally have a red face – in fear that they might loose their job if they take a neutral stand on some things that they have seen. They have to go along with the elders that hire him or her. I am looking to see those who will honor God to the utmost.
I’ve only just noticed these other comments.
I would like to reply to your comment, Tom.. I have witnessed how so called Christians behave in every church I have been a member of.. I left one church because I could no longer stand listening to them preach a false gospel, and
It was my minister who gave me the final push to leave the last church I was a member of.. Her behaviour towards me was what I call anything but Christian.. Totally disgraceful.. Stormed into my house and treated me abominably because I had not been to church.. I had health and family reasons for not having attended, which my minister didn’t even bother to ask me about. She didn’t even ask me how I was. Just pushed her way in my house to tear strips of me, and then had the nerve to say “I hope you can live with your conscience”…. I allowed her to speak out of respect, then I told her….” Conscience? My conscience is clear.. I owe you no explanation as God knows my reasons and God is the only one I answer to. Not you, or any other Fake Christian who judges people on assumptions and presumptions.
My minister knows she is the reason I never went back.. God knows, she knows!
God has given us different challenges, don’t give up! Don’t wait for the blessings to come. do your part as a Christian, Live for God!
Salvation is Free
I to have left the church sometime ago. I felt betrayed when I looked at scriptures and found they don’t even agree with Judaism teaching. Reading about various church scandals, being treated horribly by people because I didn’t hold the same political beliefs etc. recently I have been going to church biweekly with my daughter. At first she didn’t want to go, she acted out what I felt deep down. Later she came to love going to church me however I feel alien, distant. It’s like watching a movie where the character gets bad news and then the camera slowly pulls away making it feel the person is lost in a crowd, been there done that.
It is really sad. The kindest people I know, some christian and the most evil I know- christian. There is a woman who claims jesus all day long, but has violence in her blood. She is greedy, lies, only considers her own well being, is prideful , arrogant, and deceives others. She has an innate ability to lie and deny, and will NEVER apologize for her sickness. Most people stay away from her – but something is so off by her behavior and singing of god. I think the thing that bothers me most is the ability to lie, the pride of how wonderful she is, at the same time hurt others without any conscience. Any woman who lies, distorts facts- and reinforces those lies – is a person whos father is the devil- the author of lies. What I really do not understand, is that the woman – does not get along with other real kind christians, but associates only with a muslim – the very same individual who has abandoned her own three children, who also pathologically lies, practices deceit, steals and is equally selfish beyond what I have ever seen in my life.
Bottom Line:
There are many professing christians without a conscience, and they are false christians.
There are many professing christians who lie perpetually, and they are false christians.
There are many professing christians who live in adultery, they are false christians,
There are many professing christians who treat others as they hate to be treated : false christians
There are many professing christians who steal, they are false christians
There are many professing christians who deceive others and are easily deceived
There are many professing christians who will say jesus I know you- and god will say – get away from me evildoer – I never knew you. They are whitewashed tombs, with dead bones. Profess god on the outside, but deny him on the inside.
The bible is always right.
Totally agree with you Elizabeth..
This is what I see in “Christians” more often than not. These (most) People just use it as a diversion to distract people away from how they truely are, and ya know what, it works really well on “fellow Christians;” they stick together like glue, like a heard of stupid sheep and baaaaaa baaaa each other, while they go around and treat honest and truthful “evil heathens” like dog crap on the bottom of their shoe.
I know drug addicts that treat people and life better and are more honest, truthful, and upright!!–the only thing bad they do for the most part/overall is the drugs. Jesus didn’t act like these self proclaimed “Christians” as all! And I have a feeling He is saddened and ashamed to be represented by these kind of fake, plastic, jerks.
I’ve been screwed over and hurt by “Christians” more severely and deeply than I have by non-believers.” —even by my own family. My own mother is one of these people. When we go out to eat, every time—she only prays over the food if we go sit inside a restaurant, NEVER even once, has she or will she pray over the food if we sit in the car to eat by a drive through. HA! among other nutty fake rude lying behavior she exhibits. At least non-believers follow the law and the rules, where as “Christians” are just too special and above the rules, they have a pass—they act like–I see this over and over–landlord/slumlords, employers, etc… I really Cannot stand Christians, I will not claim to be one, but I am down with Jesus, and think he is such a cool and beautiful soul. Doing business with a Christian is the worst most of the time, for me anyway.
So, which is better:
1.)A honest, kind and truthful homeless drunk or junky?
OR
2.)A judgmental, corner cutting, hateful, cheating and mean Christian?
Well, in my opinion #2 is not a true follower, but only a fake fraudulent label for the praise of other men, and probably not getting much praise from the MostHigh.
Jesus was, and still is, a very cool, laid back person, with snappy answers and comebacks, who’s been getting !*%# on from the time he started breathing on this earth–IMO.
“Christians” are fake, and the term is polluted. It’s just not a good term any longer.
I think everyone will burn. I like the silversmith example:
When a silversmith purifies the sliver he puts it in the fire and burns off all the impurities, the dross; and, the silversmith knows the sliver is pure when he can see is own reflection in the sliver.
So it is like our souls. God will burn all our impurities away and hopefully there is some purity in our souls that reflects God’s image that he will keep for eternity. We as followers, who have the beautiful gift and the mercy of the forgiveness of Jesus, are so blessed that we can get rid of these impurities before we die so that it does not have to go to the fire and be burned off. I think these “Christians” have a big surprise coming, and some hell to go through that they Think they are getting around because they “claim Christian.” They live in fear, scared of fire and brimstone, which is really the only reason the want to be a Christian; it’s obviously not because they actually love God—they love their own ass much, much more. We will see. In the mean time, just love and don’t be a hater!
~Shine Your Lovelight~
I guess of the two choices you present I would choose number 1. But what about 3–neither of the above?
There were a lot of fakes and hypocrites in Jesus day. There will be fakes and hypocrites when he returns. Remember The Sheep and the Goats.
I battle church hypocrisy from within by waging spiritual warfare and speaking the truth in love as I attend church. I also shun hypocritical behaviors in my own life.
As the pagan philosopher Confuscious said, “It is better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness.”
I’m in a situation right now where a terrible crime was committed against our son when he was 6. The one who committed the crime was a 15 year old that not only went to our church but is also family. We chose to confront the person who now has 2 children of his own that we are worried about. This person not only sinned against God and many people because of this crime, but he could face many years in prison. We chose to confront him about what he did to our son and we have been accused of finger pointed when we have our own sin. An entire family has chosen to sever the relationship between us and them because they think we were wrong for trying to cause trouble. We chose to protect our son who has struggled in silence for 18 years. He spent 24 days in the hospital on suicide watch and now has a mental illness because of trauma from the crime. The persons parents who hurt our son are elders in the church and want to sweep away this crime and we are being blamed for wrong doing because we exposed their sons crime to them. We just don’t know what God would have wanted us to do. Remain silent and help our son to recover in silence or allow him freedom to confront the one who hurt him, caused so much pain and health problems. We so far haven’t pressed charges because of his 2 young children and we only wanted his confession and apology, but he refused and refuses to talk anymore about it. Our son and ourselves have been deemed the wrong doers because we exposed darkness. The elders in church always pull for their own and anyone else is wrong. How is this christian behavior where sin and crime is overlooked?
LOL, when non-Christians see Youtube vids titled “Why I’m Sinless” and abusive, grandiose fundies making comments like “God hates sinners and sin, and so do I” , and clips of screeching, self-righteous morons barging around Target, very, very concerned with who goes into what Target toilet, well, it just reinforces our antipathy.
Then you get the loons who trumpet a date which God has informed them is when the world ends.
Televangelists fleecing their flock and ignoring the teachings about rich men and the eye of a needle.
Nice polite Christians who, when they realise that they;re talking to a non-believer, suddenly feel the need to threaten us with eternal misery and pain because we don’t buy their nonsense.
On and on it goes.
The more I see of fundies, the more I am certain that their brand of religion is actually a mental disorder.
“Amen”. Christians have scared me and many others from Christianity. Every Christian and every church has their own superior doctrine & only their interpretations are right. I was raised Christian and then started thinking for myself. No thanks to all organized religion! That’s how women are held down, human rights violated, & wars/terrorist acts begin…all organized religion. I can’t recall the last time an atheist started a war?
Not that you need another comment here, but you left off the most important part of #1 — “With God’s help, THESE ARE THE STEPS I’LL BE TAKING TO MAKE SURE I will do better next time”…spoken with a request for the one delivering the rebuke (or naming a neutral other person) to assist with accountability and monitoring progress. Words without actions are cheap and worse than worthless.
I stopped going to church due to all of the hypocrisy after 10 years. I helped start this church and helped to build it. I got tired of seeing thing being done NOT according to Gods will and it being excused as “we are all just sinners”. What a convenient excuse for not holding on to Gods commandments. More so if it is the Pastor doing it. God set a standard for all to follow but put special requirements for the leaders. Would God have really call a man into being a Pastor if he continues to sin? So the “just being a sinner” doesn’t work for the leaders of the Church. Being above reproach is very important. When you look around and membership is a revolving door and the only person prospering is the Pastor you may want to rethink the Church.
Normally I have a lot to say or add to an article, but this is that one, rare faith-based article that covered all the bases! So all I can say is, AMEN!
Im not a Christian…..never was….had absolutely ZERO interest in being one. But did that stop my mother from forcing me at the age of 13 to lie to a priest and tell him I wanted to be baptized? Oh ho ho noooo that didnt stop her, she used fear on me. When i turned 18 I finally put my foot down and told her she would no longer drag me to church. I reclaimed MY freedom as a HUMAN BEING.
My mother uses her religion as an excuse, an excuse to act hateful, cruel, manipulative and biggoted towards others, and myself. I’ve also seen others use their religion as an excuse for their disgusting actions as well.
I will never call myself a “Christian”…because that is what Im NOT. And I’m HAPPY this way. Of all the religions in this world…..Christianity is one Im VERY unimpressed with.
And before anyone tries to tell me to “reconsider”…..I’ve told my unhappy experiances to Christians who know how to act like proper human beings…..and not one of em…could blame me for how I feel…and were 100% okay with me not being apart of their faith. And not one of them tried to argue with me.
Love this comment. I’m not Christian either, and I hate most Christians because they use their faith to excuse their actions. I read The Satanic Bible and love what it has to say. I recommend you read it, not being a Christian.
You may hate some Christians, but you can’t say you hate most Christians if you haven’t met them or had some kind of exchange (in person, email, text ..) with them (and that would be quite a number). I disagree with atheists, but I don’t hate them. I’m not sure I’ve ever met a true atheist so I can’t say I hate or even dislike them.
I am an atheist, but I don’t like to call myself an atheist because so many Christians think lesser of atheists for the lack of a belief in a Creator. Most Christians are so stuck up and rude that I just despise them. Aren’t Christians supposed to be kind to everyone? That’s not the way it works. It’s just dumb I think. And I think it’s dumb to argue with someone over religion, which is what most Christians do. It’s just a dumb thing to argue or fight over. Just really, really dumb
Also, not to make anyone mad or anything, but I think everyone should read what Anton Lavey has to say in The Satanic Bible.
So “random atheists” who swear by themselves that God is a “sky fairy” and the Bible is a farce have their own bible and believe in Satan, who technically was created by the non existent “sky fairy?” Atheists don’t want to believe in other beings let alone higher beings than humans, but they are like Carry-Ann, the FIRST to go into the light as soon as someone calls their name, SMH. I’m amused, to say the least!
Nobody wants to read what Satan has to say when we can all see his exploits on the news. Besides, the field of experts on humanity, love, heaven and hell is already pretty crowded. Satan will only detract from the main attraction — you know — terrorism, racism, sexism, debauchery, hedonism, fellatico, rebellion, derision, confusion, control, greed, selfishness, pride, abuse, lying, killing stealing and acting a plum fool. Like what value can Satan add to any of that? If you say sorcery is compelling, the astrologists already have that market cornered along with most Disney movies and Harry Potter everything.
FYI: Just because Christians have not been the best brand ambassadors for Jesus does not mean the concept should be ignored. Deep down you want something greater than you. Don’t default to Satan because Christians have been reckless. God is greater than us all!
I am a fairly financially poor Christian and am being sued by a sister-in law (Christian) who has been robbing me for 18 years by refusing to settle my father’s trust. She has lived free in his house for 23 years. she is now, having reached retirement, decided to sell and is trying to get everything plus. She feels she was entitled to the house because she says “she took care of my father”. He actually took care of her and my brother who lived there rent free. No one took care of him. She is full of lies and has gotten my two sisters to lie for her and give her their inheritance at great consequences. That doesn’t bother her in the least as she feels she is entitled and it has been her ‘blessing from God”. I am very discouraged at what has happened to my family. My brother, her husband has died of a heart attach, defending her, my sisters has encountered great illness, I am depressed and feel totally alone. This woman will not stop and wants to punish me forever because I would not give her the inheritance from my father (whom she hated).
It reminds me of the story of Jezebel in the Bible, as she controlled my brother and every one by tantrums, whining and manipulation and is a liar and a thief. I wonder if such a person can possibly be a Christian as they have no conviction of sin. I want what my father left me. It is important to me.
She feels if she wins in court, as she can afford lawyers since she lives free, and I cannot as I am old and retired and poor, that it is God’s will for her to win and she will be greatly blessed with my money. This is an atrocity and I have seen it before happen to a friend by her bother and sister-in -law (so-called Christians). They both died in torment indescribable. She continued living to 87. I wonder if these people go to heaven. I know God does not allow me to get away with things like this. How can they be Christians? and does God’s judgment fall upon them?
I am being bomblasted by this woman and cannot even find a lawyer to help me as I am poor and they say there isn’t enough money in it for them to get involve. What can I do? I have left churches some time ago as I find the same behavior there. I often wonder if God is there or if I have done something wrong and am being punished for wanting my inheritance.
That’s so horrible! Stuff like that happens so much in the American church. We need real repentance on a national scale.
This stuff is a disgrace to the name of our LORD. I make no excuses to you atheists, for there are none. Judgment begins with the household of God, as it says in 1 Peter.
If you despise Christians why should you care WHAT they think of you? If you hate them because they are “awful” their opinion shouldn’t matter.
I don’t hate or despise you, since you’re my fellow human and brother through Adam. I’m a rotten sinner myself and it’s only by God’s grace I have any hope of Heaven.
I certainly hate Satan though. He seems to be clouding your mind. He’s the Father of Lies. And he HATES your guts, btw.
I asked my sister in Christ to pray for a little boy with very serious cancer and she said she didn’t need to hear that because her grown son has a fractured rib and she is very worried about him. I was shocked and saddened to hear that response. Should I tell her that or should I leave the matter alone.
I love God and everything Jesus stands for. But I don’t believe in organized religion or Christianity any more. Of course as humans none of us are perfect. We all sin. But I try to be honest‚ open and repentful of my sin. When I see a fellow brother and sister suffering in sin all I feel is compassion for this person. But what I hate is hypocrisy especially in the church. I have never witnessed any of this compassion or empathy there. All I witnessed was hate‚ dishonesty‚ judgement and misinterpration of scripture. Just because I was different (I am living in Colombia) I am pretty much judged and labeled as a non-believer or a “spiritual baby” because I don’t jump around or speak in tongues. I received nothing but bad testimony from my girlfriends family. They disliked me because I was an outsider and not “christian” enough. They would do anything to seperate us. The mother was literally an evil person. In church during worship she would have her hands raised glorifying God. But outside the church I did not see that love. All along my girlfriend would defend her mother and family’s bad behavior with all of the excuses listed in this article. It is funny many Christians go to church‚belong to worship teams or are church leaders. But I feel they truly do not follow God’s word or exemplify Jesus’ love. They all have motives and sin more than any non-religious person I have known. Again we all sin. But it’s like they are in denial of their own sin and they constantly pass this judgement onto other people. I don’t mean to generalize because I know there are good Christians out there. But the Christians I have known in my life have been the most craziest‚ untrustworthy‚ unreliable‚ opportunistic‚ money hungry /selfish people I have ever met. I can tell you countless stories but it is enough to write a book. Too much to write here. Anyway‚ it is like a cult. I am sorry but this is not God or Jesus to me.
That is exactly what you should feel and that is the very example that you should give inside the church and outside. The example you gave about your mother did you feel compassion for her or anger because what she did had nothing to do with organized religion organization is unity religion can be just religious until you began a journey with Christ. Many people use the excuse I’m not going to church because of all the hypocrites this is precisely the reason why you should go because then they will have no excuse when they stand before God in judgement. Where does judgement begin? The Bible tells us it begins in the house of God. And the Apostle Paul told us that we should forsake not the assembling of ourselves together even the more has we see the final day approach. David said I was glad when they said unto me let us go into the house of the Lord. The temple of God should be the person in which the Holy Ghost resides in. It is required that the steward be found faithful the Bible says to obey those that have the rule over you for they watch for your soul this is speaking of a pastor. Churches Peter James I do agree that sometimes people come to church just for the show but that is the opposite reason that I go. There are strength in numbers miracles signs and wonders I don’t know where you going to church but apparently you have not found a happy place then maybe you should ask God to help you find the place where you should go.
Hi Timothy,
Thank you for your response. I do understand your point. I completely understand the human conditioning. I have been down that road many times. I am just trying to say, I want to surround myself with good-loving people. Of course our jobs as Christians is to spread God’s grace or love, to go out and help people. I know we live in a fallen world. Not one man is completely righteous. But I am sorry, if you are going to a church for 20 years, you participate in church activities, or you are a church leader and then during the week when you are outside the church you treat people horribly… lie, steal, con… What is the point? These people I talk about have no clue what they are doing as if they don’t have any self -awareness of what they are doing. They are in denial. Of course I pray for them and when you try to talk to them in a non-judgemental way… they become defensive and deny everything. Again, I am not talking about a kind person who sins and needs help. I am talking about people who are supposed to give testimony and are just plain mean. Please.. I do not want you to misunderstand what I am saying. It is not about sinning. we all sin.. it is about the hypocricy. Also, The more they view you as a “good” person the more they envy you, talk badly behind you back and ostracize you. Do you think they care about us setting a good example? They don’t because in their minds they are good and faithful Christians. And again it is not about me being self-righteous. It is not, “look at me I am so holy” because I am not and far from it. Please, excuse me because there are some great Christians and pastors our there. But the churches I have been to…If they are not condeming you to hell, they are just collecting your money. I also feel, many pastors over a period of time become greedy and have a different agenda. They focus more on collecting the tenth and become obsessed with only expanding the church. They just lose focus on what is the most important and that is God. Actually, me and some friends were talking about staring a church group. Everyone is welcome. We will not collect money. It will be place where we can talk about our day to day struggles with sin. Noone has to be ashamed or feel judged. The difference would be is that we try to be brothers and sisters and we treat one another with love and respect.
I fully agree. Blessings !!
Maria
I left the established churches twenty years ago and an Evangelical free church ten years ago.I think I have always been kind to others, others say so but i became very ill, still am struggling with health issues, and church people lost interest and in fact then through neglect made me worse.
But I believe love costs and if it doesn’t cost something, some sacrifice, time, energy, patience, money, then it is not love . I also believe love can heal.
I tried to protect my kids from seeing behaviour of Christians from church when I was deadly ill, survived , but husband was unemployed,but couldn’t when they got older and saw for themselves who were true friends.( 4 Christians, secularists and new agers)
Some Christians then say ” don’t judge’ And one said ” my mother always said we don’t go to church for the people we go for God”
That is not new nor is it ‘wise ‘ just something her mother will have heard and I didn’t want to insult her mother but disagreed.
Of course we meet with each other for each other ! We can meet with God anywhere and pray alone and when two or more meet together Jesus said He was there.
The community of believers as in Acts had instructions blatantly ignored today , every man for himself and ‘ I am praying for you’ If no miracle then too bad must be your fault ? But they forget James and the harder sayings of Jesus.
They tell me not to ‘ judge’ call me ‘ bitter’! when I was just hurt. I was not bitter. Throwing it all at me I now know is in fact narcisstic behaviour. An excuse to not help others ( too busy they say when I asked for help with another member in church with huge problems, husband had a stroke you name it. I had to help then myself,sick and lived further away. )
But I must ‘not judge ‘ However, telling people truth is not judging When I said we must be there for one another, one said ‘ it’s not about works’ !
Jesus said to pray in our rooms . So we do, small group when we can, no pressure let it flow. Jesus said we must God and one’s neighbour. It could not be simpler really.
I understand atheists when they criticise Christians. Not though when they are sometimes hateful. But the reasonable ones have a point as I agree Christians need to show some fruits and try to be an example.
A Christian can sin , I do ! and if a Christian truly , will prove this by apologising repenting and make amends.And we need one another for help and encouragement not condemnation or rejection !
Corrie Ten Boom the wartime heroine and one of my favourite authors said:
Don’t worry too much about what you don’t understand in the Bible worry instead what you do understand and are not doing”
I think we live amongst the luke warm and apostate church, but if I say that I am also ‘ judging’.!
The pre-trib rapture people tell me I worry too much as we will be whisked away before trouble. The ME And African Christians aren’t though but Western Christians, the most prosperous and safest in history will be? I am not sure.
Sadly, the Christian women I’m meeting lately do not understand the following phrase:
Do unto others as you would have done to you.
Let me put it another way:
What ye sow, so shall ye reap.
Karma beats out the Christian version of god. Forgiveness does not trump karma and there are three mean forty-something Christian women just up the street who decided they could go all psycho on me.
Karma at them.
My totally inculcated ex-Christian friend was just as mean, and I put up with her mean spirited games for decades. I’m done with that now, I dropped her. I told her we are unequally yoked, hers is very heavy, but mine is light. I wish I’d remembered to tell her the example she and many other Christian women are setting these days, is not bringing honor to their family or their religion. Any woman who treats me like I am a lessor being? Will get the karma they deserve even if they believe they are entitled to be mean in their version of a god’s name.
Whatever it is the Christian men are doing to abuse their women and families and make the women attack each other is very rotten, too. I know Christian men are used to getting away with whatever they want, even physical abuse, but guess what? I don’t let the men off the hook..
Now the little Christian girls are leading the bully parade allowed in the US schools, and WOW, are those little munchkins mean, too. No wonder no one wants to be a Christian, anymore. Y’all are turning out to be as fascist and fundamentalist and rude as the other two main Abrahamic religions. I know, WI has a supposedly Christian Governor, now, and verily, his sins will be finding him out.
I was given a book when I got married something along the lines good girls guide to sex. I didn’t read some of it until recently. The author is a christian woman. I found so many issues with the book it had the meanest views towards other women. Mostly opinion based and filled with lies but presented itself as absolute truth. The author called entire groups of women bad girls and at one point compared them to prostitutes and other negative examples in the bible. She used many examples to generalize and belittle other women. I tore the book apart and threw it away.
I no longer am religious because of women like this. Throughout my entire church-going experience I was regularly glared at by women because my knees were showing. My chest was always covered but I got so much negative attention towards it too. As a young girl I was taught in church that my body was a shameful and sinful thing to be disgusted at. They succeeded and I grew to hate my body. I was ridiculed my whole time while I was a christian by other girls and women. I always followed the rules and did what was considered right. I was still never one of them or good enough. I will never take part in the “righteous” hate towards others. I think there is rampant jealousy and women pitted against each other especially among the religious.
The amount of vitrol towards other women I had to look the author up. My view you put out hate then you are fair game to be judged. Like I suspected because of her hateful views and lack of photo in the book she is not an attractive woman. Some use Christianity to fuel their jealousy and mask their hate towards other women. I feel many women hide ugly behaviors in the name of religion the same as men can do.
I think many in the church struggle with basic friendliness and hospitality. It might be because they themselves have been “burned” in other church settings, so they have their guard up. It might be due to poor leadership. It might be due to the lack of training. It might be the church is simply located in a very provincial and unfriendly cliquish town full of mean people generally.
Recently, I noticed one of the pastors at the church I attend is often the one at the door to greet people as they leave the service. He always refuses to shake my hand. He shakes others’ hands but not mine.
I suspect it is due to his views on “purity” and not wanting to touch the hand of an unmarried woman (or any woman). However, the leaders nearly *always* insist that the people in the congregation “extend the hand of friendship” and shake each others’ hands at the beginning of the service, before the sermon begins. It’s a bit ironic.
I mean, do they imagine that no other person seated next to me could ever be overwhelmed by my attractiveness and fall madly in lust with me after a simple handshake? (Unlikely, given that *no one* in my 47 years has ever been overwhelmed by my “attractiveness”…) Are they not leading their own flock astray by insisting on a ritual in which they themselves refuse to participate? (I’m being sarcastic…).
It seems to me most sexual misbehavior rarely starts these days with a handshake. Most of it seems to occur via smartphones, via texting indecent photos to someone you shouldn’t.
I think (western) Christians struggle with simple hospitality – something that in ancient times was simply taken for granted – it was deep in that culture.
I am a bit offended. I grew up in a UMC church and no pastor of either gender (we had both!) *ever* refused to shake my hand. It is really weird and makes me feel unwelcome and very uncomfortable. I’ve stopped going to Sunday services, although I’m still in touch with my small group there. I will probably just be unchurched again for an indeterminate period of time (the last time I was unchurched stretched over 2 decades, so who knows, I might never go back to church again).
Some of the most “Christ Like” people I know are not Christians at all and some of the most evil, self centered, selfish, irrational science deniers are almost always Christians. I find that very strange.
I am sorry you feel this way, but not all Christians are like that.
I was raised in a Christian home. Going to church was central to my childhood, my family life, my socialization and more. Although my family was considered ‘saved’ my home life was really dysfunctional & there were also times of abuse within the church, and outside of that too…There are really bad people everywhere. They can be religious or not. They don’t necessarily have to be Christians either. I think it just hurts a lot more because it’s familiar. I was also abused by a member of the Moslem faith…this was a big deal. Prior to that it was mostly Christians I guess, or people who would call themselves Christian…I don’t really get that at all! The split is really a shock, to me, to see people call themselves Christian and yet…and yet they are the most greedy, sick, sadistic, cruel, and devilish kind you could ever witness this side of the grave. And then there’s me. I am NOT perfect either. I struggle with so much anger, and hurt it’s just awful at times. I do some of the things listed in this article too. I try to remember that it’s not JUST Christians who act this way….this is just the spirit of the world, or the flesh you could say. Human nature in all of it’s misguided, bombastic, selfish ambition! I know that Jesus is my Advocate, and even when nothing seems fair, and there’s not any community, and no one to help, He’s still working for me, and He’s not going to allow a bunch of show pony, religiously confused people to break my faith, or my heart. And yes I have to remind myself of this a lot–that there is no perfect system, or religion, there are a lot of other people of different faiths who’ve been severely hurt too, just like me. It still makes me sad though, but this is the best I can do right now. Oh, and I think it may be an American thing too, maybe? I don’t know….
So I work with this lady, who claims to love jesus. When she does wrong she lies to everyone, boldly to their face, and when evidence shows she lied, she then accuses people of lying, of sabotage and NEVER says sorry. She is wrathful and hateful , demanding SHE IS THE POOR VICTIM OF EVERYONE, when it is her that is selfish and unkind . Worse, anyone who tries to help in in any way, will be accused of all types of wrongdoing. No body wants to work with her, because of her lack of truth and decency, to which she further scolds people – we are supposed to love one another and collaborate.
I do not see Jesus in her, but I see lies. She is so disturbing to my soul, everything jesus taught, love, kindness and honestly is absent.
I realize it’s hard to work with a liar but I would rather be accused of something I didn’t do than to be accused of something I did. When it comes to these kind of people the best thing we can do is to do good unto them this is what the word of God teaches us to do. They’re always going to be these type of people but when you do good unto they’re evil you win anyway no matter who’s looking because God sees and that’s what counts keep up the good work. Some men trust in horses others trust in chariots but we will trust in the name of the Lord.
My husband always use this everyone has to be judge I’m not the only one or when he emotionally abuses us he will say I’m doing the best I can everything’s a process. Well if everything a process, why is it not a process to act out wrong but its a process to act out in right behavior?
Thanks for this article. My least favorite and often heard execuses are:
1. There is no condemnation for those in Christ, which translates to…I am not accountable for any of my actions. You must ignore the evil I am doing because I prayed a prayer and I am forgiven, so I have zero consequences for my choices. That passage goes on to say there is blessing for those who live according to the Spirit and not the flesh. Those who sow to the flesh will reap destruction. We do not teach much on character, accountability, growth, and behavior in church any more. That is considered legalism, though the apostles addressed conduct with the churches. We need to really teach the word as God intended, not just tell people they can pray a prayer and live like the devil.
2. You can’t judge me. Mostly people want to get away with living how they want and desire no accountability. They believe God is watching them hurt people with no desire for them to change. I have heard pastors teach, “God just sees Jesus when He looks at you.” I can not find any scripture to affirm this. God sees our hearts and every silly thing we do. Though our eternal seat is confirmed through relationship with God, He is not blind to what we do nor applauding our bad behavior.
I pray the church (myself included) acquires the character traits of God. We are to become like the Son…not just sit around taking up space until Jesus returns. I am against teachings that lead us to be as sinful as we were when Jesus found us. What a waste of life if do not grow at all and have no fruit for Him.
4th Commandment
Remember, the Sabbath to keep it Holy……
So many good people who truly do love Jesus have been hurt. I also read of those of you who were appalled at their church serving popcorn during the service, little mention of what was missing, loud worldly saturated music that has nothing to do with the Holy Ghost. I know why: they have not died to self: being very selfish and really don’t even care. They do not know Him, period! You can go thru the motions: but most of that is just your flesh and not your spirit –When you get saved, He comes into your Spirit! I highly encourage you to watch Jack Van Impe Presents Friday nights: 8 PM in Boise — on Daystar. He lovingly and powerfully gives the truth. First you must repent of sin — then you ask Him to forgive you because you are ashamed of not serving Him beforehand. — You ask Him into your heart with is your spirit. Immediately, Jesus comes into you. Then if only you will get hungry for more: and that comes via the Baptism in the Holy Ghost : which gives you His power annointing. — brings you into His very presence and all that Jesus is about. I know some who just won’t listen. Folks: take your eyes off of religion: place them completely on Jesus for real. Those churches that treat others so terrible: they will pay for it. God is not mocked. I am Brother Bob. I love people from a clean heart which Jesus has given to me.
You forgot to mention that Christians must believe by tenant of faith that all other religions are doomed to burn in hell forever. How can you be kind to others while simultaneously subscribe to a God that is going to send them to be tortured forever in hell?
Even the Christian book’s number one character Jesus made this inarguable , non debatable with extreme clarity.
The best response we as Christians can give when confronted with sin in our lives is, “I have sinned.” King David is the best role model when it comes to repenting. Christ could not be a role model for that behavior since He never sinned.
Why does anyone need to believe in a god to treat others with dignity and respect, the way they themselves wish to be treated (you know, like “The Bible says”). I am not a Christian. I’m pretty sure I don’t even believe in God, though it’s something I don’t really think about. All this discussion about “sin” is something I find disturbing. It’s as though we are using a religious model to justify the existence of people’s bad behavior, as though this “sin” is something to be overcome in seeking salvation from a creator. What is referred to as sin is simply people behaving selfishly. Nearly all biblical references to “sin” are merely examples of this. Proper behavior is about asking oneself, “would I be okay with being treated this way?”, and if the answer is no, then not engaging in that behavior. Seriously, it’s in nearly every religious text in the world.
One of the most frequent commands in the New Testament is “love one another”.
Isn’t it interesting–people take a stance that we are to treat those in the church one way and those without another way (in terms of being mean), when Jesus said, “love your enemies” (Matt. 5:44), and we have instruction in New Testament books similar to Romans 12:14, “Bless them which persecute you: bless, and do not curse”, and I Peter 3, where believers are not to render evil for evil, but blessing, and to have a right response to those causing harm (apparently opponents to Christianity).
It comes down to this–people are giving excuses to keep doing the opposite of what the Bible says. If someone has hate (in opposition to God’s commands to love), it is possible for that person to also violate these other commands.
As I John 4:10 says, “If a man says, ‘I love God’, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?”
Their issue is with God and they are saying false things to “get away” with what they are doing.
This is a great great input and I have to concur! Loving no matter what, comes down to the core of who we are and reflects that we aren’t like Jesus but God can get the changes done within us and then it becomes that much easier to love which covers a multitude of the sins of others!
What should I do with my church call new beginnings worship because other people are talking about me behind my back to pastor Bill and he is doing the same thing as the other people is doing… Will you please help me out with this
Get out and serve God elsewhere!
i think its a disgrace. Just be a good person.
Why are Christians so mean? Because they have no moral compass. Example:
Exodus 20:13 “You shall not murder.”
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
So, it’s no wonder Christians are confused about morality and act the way they do.
There are other examples. Christians are Christians because they are afraid to die, they are afraid of a super powerful being that will throw them in eternal fire, they are afraid of non-believers, they are afraid to live. Fear, fear, fear. And then the bible reads:” do not fear”. lol
Hmmm, I wonder why.
I love this article…I needed some confirmation of what I have seen Christ followers do and say, plus I needed veracity, some rebuking, and help on staying on track…many I run in to, try to give me permission for even being me, all I can do is ask God for grace, and keep my mouth quiet trying to not become self entitled and tangled up with them. I don’t need to offend nor hurt unbelievers who may already be hurting nor understand who He could be for them.
Another one is ‘we are broken people’! Should be people with broken jaws learn some manners.
Really enjoyed reading your article, not to mention the lawsuits brought against the church for abuse of power, cruelty, mistreatment, physiological intimidation, harassment. I’m reading the leaders will be held accountable for rejecting conspiracy to manipulate that rejection, closing the doors that need fellowship, prayer, worship. Every church should be equipped in the ministry to help pray for the healing, deliverance, salvation of the hurting, helpless, defenseless. But of course political influence and greed for some are more important. The fear of men over the fear of God.
I am a Christian who goes to church alone, without my husband. This is very hard. The Christians who have their entire families go with them are snobbish, uncaring, and sometimes downright hateful acting. One of them stood up and stated she would not make and take food for a funeral for people she didn’t like and she is featured at the church. Why do they act like this?
The pastor of my church came to my home uninvited and demanded that I tithe. When I refused he turned me over to the devil permanently. I know that pastor will burn in hell along with all the other evil Christians because Jesus said lawless people will not be allowed into heaven. I am praying for that and God always answers my prayers.
Dear Lynn:
I realize this is very late, and you will probably never see this remark. I leave it for others, who may discovered this page.
Jesus fulfills the law. So Jesus is my tithe. The end.
Take care and keep safe!
As a convert, this has confused me. My non-Christian friends are much more trustworthy, kind, supportive, and nonjudgemental than most of the wonderful Christians I know. I do not say “wonderful” sarcastically – they are wonderful people – but they are just more selfish and uncaring than my non-Christian friends. One theory I have is that the devil attacks them harder, and that while trying to live the life of the Cross, it acts like testing metal in fire – the worst will come out, burn brighter, they may have more suffering going on and less wordy things to turn to as crutches – these aren’t excuses, but possible reasons. It is sad to me that I don’t feel I can truly trust brothers and sisters in Christ the way I can trust my non-Christian friends.
Wow, so many comments in response to your article. I have to admit, when you said “I am always amazed at the grace, love, support, and forgiveness that is found among the ‘unchurched’ which is rarely found among those who go to church” it struck a chord with me. I don’t think I have ever met any Christian who has treated me just as well or better than my non-Christian friends. And this is during a period of when I was a non-Christian and after I became a Christian. The evangelical world loves to throw around catch-phrases because it showed up in the Bible, “family,” “brother,” and “sister”. But they are only that – superficial catch-phrases.
The only thing that is truly relevant in this topic is weather or not THE Christian is a TRUE follower of Jesus Christ (those that follow him in deed and not word only). I’m not talking about that person who goes to church every Sunday and read’s out of the Bible every week, or every day for that matter. I mean those that honestly seek to follow the will of the Lord. As James describes Pure religion as “undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”(KJV James 1:27) In one of his final opportunities to teach his disciples in his mortal ministry the Savior said this “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”(KJV John 13:34-35) True followers of Jesus Christ understand that it is only threw his infinite love goodness that we become anything like what he is. That is what a true religion is, and what we are expected to live through faith on his name.
That is like saying, why was God so mean to us innocent people when we never did anything wrong to begin with.
Good question … from the wording, the question is actually pretty peculiar.
It’s worth noting that everyone of us (yes, that includes me) has done at least one problem thing that we probably regret later on. So if we’re being technical, we aren’t really completely innocent, and a God who wants love does not really like any action that causes trouble (which we all end up doing at some point). However, it’s worth noting that the levels of sin are different among different people, which I think is what the “innocence” may be referring to. In particular, there is a difference between a person who accidentally bumped into someone and a mass murder. Granted, all sin is similar in that it separates us from God, but not all sin have equal effects (and God took note of that in the Mosaic Law with different penalties).
It’s also worth noting that we live in a messed-up world separate from God, so all sorts of bad stuff happens. However, Jesus reassures us in the famous shepherd analogy that “the thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy”, but Jesus gives life so they can “have it to the full” (John 10:10). In summary, the vast majority of the bad things come from the broken world rather than God wanting to screw us over.
This is a pretty big question that many people ask, and I won’t be surprised if there’s any follow-up questions.
Greetings, Reality Check!
It’s more like asking, ‘if God is so very gracious toward sinful humanity, how is it that those most like God are disposed toward people so gracelessly.’
The whole need no physician. If we were sick, Jesus would heal us. Since we are whole, therefore our sin remains.
Those excuses are no good at all, I once heard a Christian excuse like “it’s just business”, but then growing up Christian I renounced the faith, repeatedly, and don’t want to be Christian again. I can’t accept all that bullshit that it’s merely a faith and you say faith all the time never with any proof, that’s a shitty way to do Christianity and no Christian church supports that bullshit. If I was Amish then it’s almost a “goodbye” to the internet, but not quite, because I have to buy an oil lamp, an Amish book (already paid for), Amish clothes, etc, all on the internet, I won’t find these ideals elsewhere, it’s probably the only non-sentimental, honest Christianity that doesn’t have its followers go on and on about bullshit of the Christian faith, I can enjoy that life, I think, I’m just not sure, something doesn’t smell right, I’ve been attacked by Christians so much, perhaps technology is a sin, but God doesn’t care if you’re ordering Amish merchandise online or talking to your mum on the phone.
I am a lapsed Christian verging on an agnostic. I grew up Catholic, but was put off by the same observations that you have made about many Christians. It seemed to me that Christianity had been subverted by people lusting after wealth and power and who then used their Christianity to persecute other people. People who ultimately can only be judged God. Maybe if there were more people like yourself representing Christianity then I and many others like me, would still be Christian.
Thanks, David. I think that probably what is happening to you is that you are thinking about rejecting the god of Christendom (the god of power, money, wealth, etc), and are just beginning to see that this is not what God is really like. Instead, God looks just like Jesus! So feel free to reject that god of manipulative religion, and instead start following the God of love, grace, and mercy that is revealed in Jesus Christ.
Never met a christian that won’t burn in hell.
Just wondering – If God is love, why does it appear that the American Evangelicals use fear and hate to control their flock? Reminds me of a man in the White House!
Yes, fear and hate should not be used to control people. It reminds me a lot of the liberal news media and Antifa.
‘…the liberal news and Antifa.’
And the other half of the planet ties the fear, hate and control to the reactionary and fascistic movements emerging across Western societies.
Thus we demonstrate T.F. Torrence’ point…
Taking the great commission message of reconciliation in Christ into a divided world, the church allowed the divisions of a broken world to penetrate back into the church, fracturing and secularizing Jesus’ body.
We overlay alien, heretical ideologies on the cross, breaking the theology of the cross, and obscuring the Glory of Christ.
How can a broken, divided church be God’s agent of reconciliation in a divided world?
It is one thing to speak against the church of ‘Christendom.’ It is another to escape its seductions. And I’d not expect expect otherwise given John’s critique of the power and wealth that was imperial Rome.
That may be why many eagerly push the theology of the Revelation into the future. That makes it easier to avoid some of the implications of the incarnation.
And yes. You are seeing Stringfellow here. So you needn’t ask…
Peace and grace to us all.
Short answer — just because a Christian group does something doesn’t mean God approves it.
There are multiple instances in the Bible when groups are called by God to do good (Israel, disciples, churches, etc.) yet completely drop the ball. In fact, many parts of the gospel involve Jesus rebuking the Pharisees because they are overly legalistic — kinda like the American Evangelicals.
We know that we shouldn’t rely on fear because from 1 John 4:18 that “there is no fear in love.” Granted, there are passages in the Bible that talk about nasty stuff (i.e.: judgment). However, in the majority of the sermons to the public, the Bible speakers put the most emphasis on JESUS and the resurrection, not judgment (and most judgment is accompanied with talks on justice).
From a psychology perspective, it seems as if some leaders focus on membership. To be fair, fellowship is important. However, there are also selfish motives thrown into the mix. As seen in John 15, just because a Christian is saved doesn’t necessarily mean that they abide in Jesus all the time (AKA living according to his will with his grace).
Alright I grew up Lutheran I’m not a fan of denominationalism at all . Why is it that fake Christians always complain but say they have faith but dot practice it and always want to argue? What am I arguing with you for ? There is nothing I or anyone else can say to change your mind or mentality are you scared of your own sins? Yes I was into witch craft for a minute but witches don’t attack people for what? Because it says in several bible verses do not try to change other people so don’t force your beliefs on others why are you doing good deeds for brownie points because in the end you are going to be just as dead as the next dead person in the hole next to you. It is like the Spanish inquisition all over again . Are people going to start kicking peoples doors in again
Sound like a bunch of Paulians to me. As long as you have faith, you can shoot someone in front of a Trump Tower I suppose.
Let us render souls unto Ceasar rather than coins.
I actually really appreciate this article, mostly. I hope you can read what I wrote below with an honest and reflective mind. Please don’t take it personally, but try to understand my perspective.
“Many Christians develop a sense of entitlement because we are the “chosen ones” the “elite” the members of the family of God. We feel this gives us the right to look down upon others who are not one of us.
Sometimes, our behavior is a result of our understanding of God’s grace and forgiveness. We feel that because God forgives us for all our sins, we can treat others in terrible ways, and God will still forgive us. While it is true that God will forgive us for such behavior, His grace is never a license to treat others so shamefully.”
Many “christians” seem to believe that they are the exclusive “members of the family of God” because they go to church and call themselves “christian”, though all living beings are His children equally.
The biggest problem I have with “christians” is how unlike Jesus they are. Honestly, when I read articles like this I wonder if you have actually read the entire bible…or even the four gospels. (This isn’t an attack, but an honest curiosity, because some of the things you say seem contradictory to Jesus’s teachings…)
Jesus said to never give any thought to the clothes you wear. Yet you pointed out multiple times in this article how you dress up in your best to go to church each week, as though your appearance is how you represent Christ, and as though God cares about your external appearance. Do you also dress “professionally” for work? Jesus explicitly said, don’t do that…so why do “christians” do it? Why disobey this simple command? The reason he said it is so we would have no reason to judge each other on the basis of appearance. Because our clothes, our hair, our makeup, the shape of our body, etc has nothing to do with our soul… What hypocrisy that so many are so bound by appearances, and so influenced by the world that they allow themselves to BE bound!
The church described in the book of Acts explained that “The congregation of believers was one in heart and soul. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they owned.”
They shared houses, food, money and every object they owned, and there was not a needy person among them. Whenever there was collective need, the people who owned property and houses sold them and gave ALL of the money to the apostles. No object was “owned” by anybody. The reason being we bring no thing into this world and we will take no thing with us when we die. We (our spirit selves) literally “own” no thing. If the soul is our True self, then how can our body truly “own” anything? While we are alive on this planet, we are meant to share all of the resources which God placed here for ALL of us equally…including all of the other life (animals, plants, etc). How arrogant to hoard any thing for ourselves!
I have NEVER met a self-professed “christian” who shares this way. I have NEVER met a “christian” who was not concerned for the “security” of their non-living possessions. I have NEVER seen a “church” which is like this. Why are modern churches so removed from the original Church which came directly from Jesus? Why have they been so corrupted, and why have “christians” allowed this?
What makes you think you have “grace”? Because you dress all nice and go to church each week? Because you said “Jesus save me!”? Because you read the bible? Because you’re “nice”?
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES the will of My Father in heaven.
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’”
Jesus makes it clear that many people will believe they are saved…will believe they have “grace” and will believe they are “christian”…but in truth their hearts will be far from him, and the evidence will be the way they spend their lives.
“They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”
This is the impression I have of “christians”, because I see them reciting prayers in churches, always in monotone emotionless voices, saying things like “I believe in Jesus Christ” blah blah blah, but then they are NOTHING like the Jesus who is ACTUALLY described in the bible, and in fact many do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify NOT doing as Jesus said. That’s not True faith OR belief. What will your excuse be to continue dressing “nice”? What will your excuse be to keep your possessions as your “own”? What will your excuse be to continue calling the leader of your church “Father” or “priest” or some other title (which Jesus also said, DON’T DO because we are all equally God’s children and no one is greater than another)?
Why do “christians” allow and participate in an entirely //divided// political system? One of the seven things God Hates is a sower of discord. Yet /every//single//politician/ IS a sower of discord, by the very nature of the “left” vs “right” political system which has torn the bonds of people in this nation.
Why do “christians” continue to support a deadly military complex? Why do they support police who carry guns? Do not kill. That is a simple command. Jesus said “if one strikes on the cheek, turn to them the other cheek” even if it costs their life, because then they have a moral argument…because one struck and the other did not. Jesus was the perfect example of this, and he was brutally tortured and killed, yet never struck back. And the legacy which that created is arguably the most powerful in human history. Yet I hear “christians” pray for //our// troops (as though God favors people in the US over people in other parts of the world…and as though God //wants// us to kill each other…we are all God’s children, yet those of you over here ask your Father to help your closest siblings kill those children of His who are far away. Do you think God doesn’t love them equally? God doesn’t want ANY of us to kill ANY other! Period!). Those prayers are blasphemous and wicked.
Jesus said to give up everything or you cannot be his disciple. I have never met a “christian” who has given up their place in the world, their job, their home, their vehicles, or their love for things and possessions and money. I’ve met people who HAVE done this, who truly have given up everything…but they do not often call themselves “christian” (though they are more like the Jesus described in the bible than ANY “christian” I have ever met). They glorify God by their deeds because by their very existence, all who do NOT obey Jesus’s commands will have no excuse for their sins. They give Truth to God’s Word by their lives, and every person who denies this will be recognized as a liar before the congregation of saints and angels; all other paths lead to destruction, and those who refuse to obey will be damned because they suppress and destroy life through selfish consumerism. Babylon is capitalism and consumption, and the angels in the book of Revelations tell all people to “flee Babylon!” for Babylon will be destroyed by God’s wrath. How many “christians” are also “consumers”?
There is a lot of iniquity in this world. Frankly, religion is to blame for a lot of it. There are definitely other factors, but this idea that you are somehow distinct, or separate, and elite from the rest of humanity //because// of your religion (because you attend church, recite prayers, etc) is one of the most divisive influences on earth right now. It is destructive. It is counter to God’s Will.
So many “christians” justify all manner of iniquity //because// they “are saved”…I’ve heard that excuse so many times to justify utterly despicable and cruel behavior. I think the true gods of //most// “christians” are the economy, the government, and the media.
When will christians BE Christian?
The one I’ve heard most often is the “Jesus’ words are not for our time” excuse. Because things like loving our enemies and blessing our persecutors are hard, we play the dispensational card and relegate them to a future reign of Christ when, of course, living like Jesus will be easier.
My sons in-laws, especially his wife, is always telling me she’s a Christian women, but at the same time, she and her family, keep me from seeing my grandkids, because they make up things about me and accuse me of ridiculous things when I start getting to close. The mother wrote me a very offensive message on Messenger and her daughter, my sons wife, scolds me on texts. I only see them on their birthdays , never have had them with me. My granddaughter always asks, “who r u” or “do I know u”, she’s now 3, my grandson is 6 ( it’s my sons wife’s kid from a different dad, but calls my son dad), and we have bonded. Right now, my son, he’s a very passive man and he works full time , takes care of his kids, and his close to getting his bachelors degree next summer which he’s done on line. His wife just goes to school full time for her masters. And wears the pants in the family and her family almost feels like a cult in a way. All their gatherings are their family members and a few close friends, but no in-laws except me, when my granddaughter was born and I wanted time with her, than all this started.. my son is t even speaking g to me now. Any suggestions? I worry about my granddaughter .
If there’s one takeaway to get — PRAYER. Honestly this isn’t my best area in my Christian life, but prayer helps us connect with God, realign our desires, and recall God’s provision. The Apostle Paul has also been through some comparable challenges (prison), but he wrote in Philippians 4:6-7 to “not be anxious about anything” but rather “present your request to God.” We know that God hears our prayers and has a plan, so we can ask God and grow close to him.
Regarding the wife, just because she says she’s a Christian doesn’t necessarily mean she’s a Christian. The ultimate test for being a Christian is if one is convinced that Jesus is their personal Lord and Savior, and only God knows for people outside of herself. Even if she is a Christian, she would have to account to God for all of her actions. In fact, when talking about not being overly judgmental, Paul stated that everyone stands before God and has to account (as seen in Romans 14:10-12).
As for the conflict itself, maybe it’s a good idea to ask why the conflict originated in the first place. If they make accusations, don’t let that affect you (as your identity is in Jesus) but maybe ask why they thought so (AKA what is their reasoning). Stay calm along the way — getting easily triggered for personal matters adds fuel to the fire. For the granddaughter, maybe take time to explain who you are (if you haven’t done so already). Finally, if you know that you have done some serious thing to them in the past, try to reconcile, confess, and/or ask for forgiveness.
Hopefully this helps. God bless.
I know someone who was a member of my faith. But she wasn’t really active and not really into the scriptures. All of a sudden she found a new faith and was more aggressive in Bible studies telling me “my new faith had changed me and gave me new hope” and she told me to do the same. I refused as I’m happy where I am and am pretty active in my church and adequate in scripture knowledge. She began to express to me that I may have been blinded and lost touch of “salvation”. She even told me that my current faith was of the devil and she made a mistake being a member of it. I could say I was like her when I first got indoctrinated to my religion. I think most of us actually become nasty when we have discovered our new found inspiration to the point of not caring about other’s feelings. A mark of a true Christian is to unite everyone to Christ as what Paul mentioned to the Ephesians. A division is not something Jesus himself welcomes.
why are preachers getting rich begging money off poor people an robing the poor I read a message what they are worth millions of dollars but they cant help us they are to rich they onlyon am on disability care about there money an there wallet but that’s ok be cause they are making god house a money market we will see who goes to hell. also they say you don’t give no money then god wont bliss you show that in the bible they are full of shit.were is god did he retire 2000 years ago.were is he when desaters happen in floods an fires an hurcanes . god must be on a 2000 year vacation I guess the preachers asking for money to feed the poor but building 100millions dollars churchs.
As a Jewish person, I want to say that Christians are the reason that I feel safe. I don’t know what you mean by “mean” but it sounds to me like you expect people to give you unfair advantage because they are Christians. I highly doubt that if you walked up to a Muslim and asked them to give you stuff for free, or to allow you to cheat them it would work out any better. As for “righteous anger” it isn’t Christians that murdered thousands of innocents on 9/11. It wasn’t Christians that killed a cartoonist that made fun of their prophet. It wasn’t Christians that killed a film maker who criticized FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION. It wasn’t a Christian who murdered his two lovely daughters because they dated American boys. Your point is that Christians do what anyone else does. Correct. They are not perfect. They can cheat and steal like anyone else. In fact, the only “mean” Christian I can think of is the current Pope Francis. The only mean one here is you, because youre lying.
Nice article! VERY TRUE!
From what I’ve learned through the Holy Spirit which sometimes revealed to me through Men and just everyday People, Many of Us Have the Most Difficult Time With The Understanding and Applying of the Scripture Let this mind be in Us that was Also in Christ Jesus. It’s So Sad how We Claim to be Followers of Christ y Act as If We have Absolutely, Positively No Understanding of Holiness, Oftentimes I wonder about Our not UAlls but Our Salvation.
Christians are some of the most sanctimonious, mean, stupid, ignorant people I have ever had the displeasure to know. Hypocrites, most of them. I believe that this religious attracts toxic people and is a convenient place for pathology to hide out…in churches. Look at all the child abusers/molesters/ addicts who never change, sickos in the pulpit and in the congregations. I could site some specific ones, but I won’t here. Oh, yes, and it also attracts shysters akin to car dealers, rip-off artists. It’s now all big business. Just turn on the TV and see how everyone has written a book, “Just send us your money.” It angers me and is disgusting. I am NOT the only one who feels this way. Remember Jesus in the temple! Christianity is BIG BUSINESS.
Granted there are a few genuine people who call themselves christians, but I’ve found they’re few and far between. Truly. And a lot of times, I haven’t found them in churches. I would call them “believers”. They walk their talk. Most of the time they don’t talk. They just act, and then you find out how much they love the Lord Jesus. “And you shall know them by their fruits.” They help the least of these and don’t need to be praised at all for it: they help the poor; do pro bono work to help someone out who is needy, no thanks needed, no recognition; they are honorable in their business practices, their personal lives. They keep covenants. They may not be saints, but neither are they trying to buy a stairway to heaven either by their shallow “good deeds for all the world to see”. I will never ever forget attending a Baptist church one Sunday morning (back in my church-looking days). Some little children were in the choir to sing and the pastor announced (right in front of them) that they were poor children in the community (inferring their inferiority in the way he said it) who had been bused in by some wonderful members of their church whose names were named. It was revolting, to me. His little speech showed no regard for the feelings of those children, they must have been humiliated and embarrassed. “Poor” children. He didn’t have to say that to make that church look good without regard for those children’s feelings!!!
I have been hurt numerous times by these people who flaunt their so-called superiority before me. They don’t know me. They’re quick to judge and mean in their words. They don’t know how I love the Lord, truly love Him. I am no saint and no angel, but I love him. He has become my very best friend. When humans have walked out on me because I’ve had hard times (financial, grief issues, loss). Jesus has been there and he’s done miracles and he’s real. I don’t need his churches. I have him. I fellowship with him and a couple of other like-minded people. That is enough.
People in his churches have been downright mean and cruel at times.
I know I will have to forgive them, but it is hard. I have forgiven a LOT, trust me. One thing I don’t like about them is their anti-Semitic hate-filled, anger-filled, nasty behavior towards Jews and other people who aren’t like them. Sometimes it is subtle. Sometimes it is not. I happen to be Jewish, my mother was, father not. Judaism makes much more sense to me and is a MUCH kinder religion than christianity. They also go much deeper into things. However…I choose to be NO religion. I believe in Jesus, in God, I call him Abba, in the Holy Spirit, and worship every day before him because I love him. In private. I believe that he was the son of God, the true Messiah, and I would go to the wall for Him, and may some day. But when I started getting to know some christians and revealed my background, they changed. I could write in great detail about it here, but I won’t.
Don’t tell me anti-Semitism isn’t alive and well in your churches. It is, unfortunately. And it stings. And it’s dangerous. It’s like a poison arrow. I have found this over and over in the last eight years back when I was “looking for a church”. I feel much more at home in synagogues, reform ones, actually. But I choose not to go anywhere at all. I worship the Lord God every day. I read His Word. I pray in Hebrew sometimes, the Shema twice a day. I believe every word in the Bible is from him. You either believe it or you don’t. Some churches and church people have a convenient way of choosing what they like and running with it, never mind the rest. Jesus didn’t come here to start a religion. He came here to save us, because he loved us, and he died for us and rose from the dead. He came to teach us how to love, how to really love. Judaism does that too. LOL, Jesus was a Jew! Fancy that!! Christians need to get off of their sanctimonious, pious high horses in their nightclub-esque churches with money-grubbing coaches posing as “pastors” in a lot of cases — not all — and read the Torah and realize their christian religion came from the Torah, Jesus was a Jewish rabbi in his lifetime, and drop their meanness. Look at the Holocaust. It is scary. Mean people who felt superior caused that. Many of them were christians, church goers.
I gave up on christianity, the religion, a long time ago, but I love the Lord. Just because I don’t go to church, who are they to judge my heart? God and God alone, only, knows hearts. He also looks at motives.
Christians are mean people. They’re often shallow, angry, hate-filled. Ignorance breeds fear breeds hate. Church people need to go read the Book of Revelation and the letters to the churches. They need to realize that Jesus was a Jew and God loves us Jews too, and he loves Israel as he loves everyone else. You can’t imagine how it feels to be hurt by a so-called christian after they find out about my family background. I went to a christian counselor for over a year. Before he found out, he would pray for me in our sessions very sincerely, fervently. I was impressed and thought, well, maybe christianity isn’t so bad after all. After he found out, though, his prayers were shorter, without the prior sincerity. Things changed in the way he counseled me. I knew he didn’t really care about my welfare. That was palpable. Fact. I quit going to him. He wasn’t helping me. He couldn’t get past his anti-semitism. I knew exactly. If my family hadn’t been afraid of mean christians, maybe they wouldn’t have changed their name and assimilated. We remember the Holocaust. We will never forget. Christians are often narrow-minded, judgmental and hateful, and hide behind their pious masks. It is sickening. I will never set foot in a christian church again.
Anti-semitism is one aspect of christian meanness that you didn’t mention in this article. Tsk, tsk. Shame on you. I mean that. It is a huge aspect of their meanness. You need to quit sidestepping it and look at it and go before God and deal with it. He chose to send Jesus to Israel as a Jewish rabbi, after all. Your christian religion is based on the Jewish one, the Torah. Jesus was a Jew. Are you going to hate him because he was a Jew? Over in the book of Luke where Jesus goes up in the hills overlooking Jerusalem before he was crucified and looks out over Jerusalem, in that passage it says, “Jesus wept.” I weep when I think of Him weeping. It just breaks my heart. I know that he is weeping for the Jews who will not accept him, but also, I think he weeps for the suffering that he knows that they’ll have to face in the centuries ahead, the times ahead. Jesus is love. He is pure love.
It (christianity) should be all about Jesus. Nothing else. Just Jesus.
I don’t do well hearing people being called names because scripture says ” Yet while we were sinners Jesus died for us.” If I call someone a name, they will never want to come to Jesus. I lived a hard messed up life when I was younger. People have pain and their pain can lead to a lot of different behaviors. Jesus said ” repent of your sin”.” Go and sin no more”. There is another scripture in the bible that I have read and it says ” I give the same seat to the poor man that I give to the rich man. ” I was honored to sit at the table one day for lunch with a lady that I had taken out for the afternoon. I was her home health aide. I was always the one setting the tables, cleaning them and the floor. To sit there dressed up was an honor. That scripture proved true to me. Take evil and do good. Amen
I was saved at age 17 and I should of listened to my grandfather when he said not to get to involved because they will try and run my life. He was right and because I did not listen to him. I got involved with going toa bible study given by Richard Schmit who seemed to care about us young people who was not like most christians WASP. Most of the christians (secular Christians) where cold and not friendly. Well Mr. Schmit feel in love or lust to this beautiul woman who was Arab desent. It seemed after being married he had no interest in us. His wife who looked Mexican dislikes us and he moved along with other Christains to San Fanciso to start a Christian commune trying to get back to the orthodox Christian . He invited me but I did not like the christians in his group. They did not like outsiders. He hurt alot of us kids and know his wife hates me
I enjoyed reading this article and found it helpful, but there is always more to the story. I try hard to be a good christian but I am also in a supervisory position in my job. I have a few staff that need a bit of prodding and one that is often taking advantage of situations to spend time talking and gossiping and not sharing in the hard tasks. In trying to get all people to work fairly, I have been maligned and had unfair accusations made against me and my personality. As a result I feel sad that my Christian witness had not been perceived as positive and that I have a reputation as not being a “good Christian”. I do try and seek Gods guidance on how to handle the situation better, but I seem stuck in a no win situation.
“I am always amazed at the grace, love, support, and forgiveness that is found among the “unchurched” which is rarely found among those who go to church.”
Just how patronising is this comment???
Here’s another one: “We’ve got to keep the young people in the Church.” ( Do it my way or you’re a horrible person.)
Planet Earth is loaded with disasters. Why ?
Why has the creator allowed that to happen ?
“Not everyone who calls Me ‘Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven… many there will be on that day…what you did ( or did not do) to the least of these, you did to Me…
“And I will say to them, ‘I never knew you’”…Matt 7:21-23
I’ve encountered plenty of the Christian’s who are jerks. I have even encountered Christian leaders are also jerks. They always justify their poor behavior with selectively chosen bible verses. I have even dealt with Christian coworkers and Christian customers who’s behavior is downright heretical. I once had a Christian attempt to berate me, by quoting scripture, informing me that my behavior was sinful. When I started quoting scripture, right back at her, informing her that her arguments were invalid she couldn’t get away from me fast enough. I was once eating lunch, in a fast food restaurant, And suddenly A very dish shoveled woman started Thing scripture at me telling me that what I was eating was sinful as per God’s commands to Moses on mount Sinai. I looked at her, squarely in the I, and informed her that she was committing biblical heresy by inaccurately coding scripture. I then unloaded on her with what the bible actually stated about the subject.
Righteously indignant Christian’s really tick me off.
I am the youngest of seven sibs. I grew up in an agnostic family. I am the ONLY one that attended any Christian Church while a youth. I was loved at the little church on High Street. I wasn’t loved at the large church two blocks down. No, I won’t disclose which did what. However, I can tell you one was/is Nazarene, the other Baptist. Forward 57 years. Nothing has changed. Many that know me want to know what I’m on or why am I different. I tell them meet me on Sunday morning and I’ll show them. 99% never have. That’s a bummer. It was 5th grade, Mr. Rickert’s class, in 1966 I suppose when I realized I am a mortal. I set back hard against the seat back and practically flailed. This is a memory I will keep to my grave. The Lord touched me then. Every morning I wake I thank him for another privileged day on earth. I have waffled more than a IHOP at noon on a Sunday as much as the next person. However, my extremely close relationship I have with our Lord and Savoir started in a classroom many years ago in a little Mid Western town. Church? I consider it school for the lost soul AND for those who’s responsibility it is live a honest, humble life with a message of salvation. He (JESUS) and I talk a few times everyday. I think He may get bored. I never do.
I think one the biggest excuses I heard is from my dad who was a minister but left the church and as he gets older he gets more judgemental and grumpy. When he was a young minister he had a gay friend and treated him as he treated himself which God taught us but now he judges gay people like no tomorrow. I’m intersex and I changed my name to female 14 years ago and he won’t accept me even though he knows there is medical evidence to back up I’m more female than male. He knows he can’t use the bible against me cause there is nothing in the bible about intersex. But God loves intersex ppl and he created them because there are intersex animals. But the excuse Christians like my dad and all my family use if they can’t find it in the bible is “I know God thinks what your doing is wrong”. This is a major excuse for anything even if it’s in the bible Christians love to use it to make people feel like they know what gods thinking of them which is blasphemy and the worse kind of judgement sin. To say your a sinner cause you know God thinks so.. As if God is judging his people just because they were born differently. My dad even thinks I was born aa a sinner cause I have autism… Anything that’s not normal to Christians it’s a sin. And as you said allot of Christians think they are elite or higher than other Christian’s or non Christians. Jesus never taught us to be like that and it makes me think do these people not understand the bible, are they reading it and taking jesus word and translating it to something that it’s not?
So called Christians are big sinners bc they think their sins won’t be accounted for. They are judgmental towards people who think outside of the Bible. In reality it is good to think outside of the Bible since the Bible is sexist. Also these so called Christians do not believe God is everywhere. They think God was taken out of schools. Lol. Also, they do not care about global warming. They continue to have lots of kids bc they are greedy. They think they are doing God a favor by having lots of kids yet what they are really doing is hurting the planet and taking big tax breaks and over loading schools with their offspring. If you don’t go to church, they assume you are a sinner and/or don’t believe in God. They are close minded.
I agree; however I don’t think the Bible is really sexist – the way people lived & the cultures they lived in long ago (Old Testament times) are different from now & even in the New Testament which we’re in. The Bible just say for wives to submit to husbands but I don’t believe it means that husbands have the right to mistreat them, force them to become pregnant, force them in anything & men don’t have the right to cheat on their wives either.
If you’re lucky enough to have a truly wonderful Christian husband he won’t hurt you. He’ll care for you best he can & he won’t abuse you or use you or mislead you.
The Bible refers to God as a he. If that is not sexist, I don’t know what is. God has no gender. Teaching little girls that God is a he is a way of telling them that boys are more like God than girls are. Also, a married couple should have equal partnership. The husband is not the sole head of the household. Besides, many men fail in that area so the wife ends up running the show.
Hello Dee! Do you think the Bible should be rewritten to make it more acceptable?
Technically the Bible is a collection of stories, parables, and poetry about many different people, both real and allegorical, who expressed many different viewpoints. As Ila said, the views as expressed in that time weren’t sexist, that was just how things were. By modern standards, however, the book is full of pretty morally questionable things. That being said, at least from what I can remember and find with a quick internet search, Jesus himself was actually kind of a feminist for his time. As he (and by extension God and the Holy Spirit) are the final word in divine mandates, I’d assume he overrides the rather misogynistic views of Paul.
I’ve been to churches (these are typically smaller ones too & some were right wing extremist churches) that preach poor people aren’t entitled to have anything or get a decent job or a decent home, car or anything else. I’ve witnessed jealousy, gossip, nosiness, self righteousness & arrogance raging thru these institutions, esp amongst women who call themselves “born again”.
These fake Christians will say having things is sin & gets in the way of focusing on God, while these very same ones own million dollar homes, have good jobs (except the ministers of course but they do quite well financially), nice clothes, motorbikes, nice vehicles etc.
I know of Christian women living with their boyfriends & that’s accepted in their churches but they chastise other women outside their churches who have been in that position. That’s wrong. I used to attend a smaller church that hosted lots of events for the congregation, Christmas events, Sat breakfasts, women’s luncheons etc. The woman who was an usher there & made herself in charge of cooking for the breakfasts & luncheons, & hosted a Christmas cookie/presents drive for orphaned kids, was found to be stealing Christmas cookies, & stole a bunch of gorgeous little teapots the ministers wife had bought for the ladies’ lunches & other events there. This usher woman had the key to the kitchen & no one else except the ministers wife & minister, had the key. She was one of the biggest meanest hypocrites I had ever seen in my life & so were some of her buddies at that church.
Then some time after I had departed ways from that particular church I had gone to a rock concert, where I was working as a Security/seating attendant(Staff) in the grandstand.) I was taking someone to the front rows of VIP seats which are pricey, & i saw the young woman who’d taken over that church’s missionary fund. She was standing in the VIP seating area w/a biker guy & her girlfriend (who’d been to church also a number of times) & her date also a biker guy. They were all soused & swaying – faces red & could hardly stand straight. I had gone to eve Bible studies & she’d been in the class also. Talking a bunch of self righteous trash.
There’s other incidents there that happened but I’m not going to discuss the rest. It was awful tho.
I tried other churches here & they are loaded with the same. Self righteous judgemental liars. I ended up returning to one I’d been to yrs before. This one had moved from its orig building then moved again til it got its final home. Right now it’s online due to the virus. There was a outdoor svc at Thanksgiving Sunday, but I didn’t go. Then afterwards I learned there were about 80 attendees there, in a small parking lot, & that several church members who hit COVID (but minister doesn’t know how they got it).
I’m not even sure I can trust this one either but I’m trying to. My husband labeled the minister as a cult leader but I’m not sure he’s right. He said he thinks the minister will just do stuff to help himself. I don’t know. Being poor doesn’t help my situation any & I feel I’m a target for predators. And they exist in churches & more than 1 kind of predator too. I have been attending online eve Bible studies as well & it’s small in attendance & the few other members who are present are very sincere. None are poor – all lower to middle class. Maybe I should give it a chance. I don’t know. I hate being told that poverty can be what God has in store for me & I don’t believe it. I’ve tried hard to get jobs & am having a lot of problems landing one here. My husband has done physical issues which will be treated soon now fortunately. He could have already been working tho if he tried. There’s ways to go about it & he could get assistance with it too but he won’t. After 20 yrs of marriage he’s finally decided I should be able to drive. And maybe get a car. And I’m so infuriated with him.
I sure could use prayer.
Do you mean that there a hypocrites in the Church? My goodness. Consider this. Adam and Eve sinned resulting in the fall of humanity – while living in innocense and a perfect world. Noah got drunk and exposed himself, Abraham told tremendous lies, and Sarah joined in with him. Lot got drunk and committed incest with his two daughters as part of their scheme. Jacob deceived his father Isaac to receive the father’s blessing with the help of his mother Rebekah. Jacob deceived many including his uncle Labban, who turned around and tricked him. Jacob’s wife Rachel stole her father Labban’s pagan idols and lied about it. Judah had sex with his daughter in law who disguised herself as a prostitute. David had multiple wives and commited adultery with Bathsheba and then had her husband killed. Peter denied Jesus and cursed and said he did not know him. The Bible is very honest and true. It does not candy-coat the actions of the saints. We are saved by grace (thank God) and not by being perfect. Still, it is important to live in a way that gives God glory and to do justice. If you are not saved, you will not understand that it was Jesus’ death and resurrection that paid the price for our sins and enables us to change and to live a (more) godly life.
Help me. I love to worship God and be assemble to the church. Just one Nancy Pelosi can destroy your reputations with full of lies and never stop. I move to another church but the all the preachers seems gossip believers and attack you to their preaching. I wish they ask question and hear my side also not to just trust all the gossip they’ve heard. This Nancy Pelosi lady is full of hate but her appearance is look like an angel. Everybody believes her drama, tears, and all the minions are also hated me without asking my side. My personality is I never participate with the gossip, never bow down to the gossip, I never buy anybody to like me, and I speak straight to the point. In Matthew 18:15-17, preachers ignoring that now a day. The reason the gossip is very powerful because the preachers are gossip entertainer and gossip believers. If you don’t participate to their gossips, your the bad guy. I stop going to church because gossips follows me and I keep whipping through the preacher preaching. When I confront the preacher, just gave me a lie excuses and avoiding the questions. Independent Baptist church is not really independent because the preachers depend to each other and gossiping people they dislike. I felt unhealthy the church so I quit but I never quit worshipping God. I still go out talking to people and give them bible if they ask me. My question is; is it a sin if I don’t go to any churches any more but continue to tell the good news about God? Anywhere I go the gossip follows me and preachers believe one side of the story without taking my side also. Do you mind to teach me how to kiss-up so the preacher will not angry at me by believing horrible gossips from evil gossipers? I just want to learn more about God. I like to go to church to hear the preaching about God, not to be whip by a lie story from the evil gossipers. Thanks for reading my problem.
Nancy is a kind sole. Trump is the problem. Stop watching Fox News and get a brain!
Just responding to pleasing God over men. I have to disagree on this one. For example, if a Christian is asked to do something by non Christians that he knows is not biblically sound or something God has told him not to do, how can that be non pleasing to God because it peeves other people. If you, as a Christian we’re asked to worship idols, and you said no, and that peeved non Christians that you said no, how is that not pleasing to God? You’re obeying God’s commands and, like it or not, that’s going to annoy certain people. Not having a go at your writing, but I can’t agree on that one. Sorry.
I have long said that Christians are the meanest and most dishonest people on earth. It is because they are not held to any personal standards at all, any standards they may have are tossed out the window when the situation becomes difficult. They “give it to Jesus” and go on they’re way trashing others, stealing when ever it looks like they can get away with it. If you are elderly and have them in your family you had better set up a trust or something to protect your assets because they will rip you off of everything you own, all your real estate, money and chattel. It was done to my mother by the good Christians in the family, terribly sad but a cautionary tale. Mortgage your property to the limit and make it so no one wants to take on the note, spend the money on yourself and grands and skip the generation of good Christians. If you look unattractive moneitarily you will manage much better and you will see the Christians drop off like sated ticks.
Hi I really appreciated your blog on this subject, as a new christian almost three years now, I have recently made acquaintances with another christian believer, he has been a follower of christ for 17years however has only been strong in his faith most recently again. He has told me his testimony and how badly treated he was and all types of abuse. He feels as though the church has written him off due to his past record and even women in the church have accused him of some inappropiate behaviour. I think police have been involved though he denies anything happened. I have spoken to a few people who know him that have been telling me to be weary, God has told me to keep a steady eye on him too. Which I am doing, I am a little worried but where God says to love and forgive I am willing to do as those who are meant to be guiding him are creating fear and judgment. If God is willing to forgive him then why aren’t other Christians? It’s a tough one as we are from the same church and I have been encouraging him and know that God has a plan for him no matter how far gone we may have been. He quotes scriptures and plays worship music when we do speak, he listens to testimonies that encourage him to know those who are out of prison are used for the Glory of God, he has the desire to preach too. I suppose it links to the blog being mean to someone who wants to change and feels guilt when he isn’t in alignment with God, though I also wonder if people are warning me out of caring and safety for myself.
I really want to thank you for the article you wrote! It’s very hard to have to deal with Christians that feel they are superior, better, or more privileged than the world. I also find it very hard for Christians when they attack, censor, shame, alienate, bully, intimidate, and exile a person that does not worship the way that they do. Another thing that is very irritating about judgmental Christians is the old adage excuse that they are not judging a person, the bible is! Another popular saying that Christians have is that “You’re not a true Christian!” if you do not follow their dogma to a tee. It seems that judgmental Christians are doing everything they can to drive people away from God with beliefs that: “You’re not good enough” “You’re a sinner” “You have to repent” “A Christian can’t yoke with a non Christian or be their friend, um doesn’t that defeat the purpose of having fellowship with people outside your faith to give an opportunity to show your love for God and for them?” I can go on and on but I have a few questions of my own if I may?
1) Why do Christians have so little faith in themselves and in God? Are they so afraid to have a relationship with a person outside their faith because that person might tempt them to leave Christianity?
2) How can a Christian understand or help the outside world if they stay in a cult setting? When you are in a cult you are cut off from the outside world and the only information you will have of a person of a different faith is the one you make up in your mind. Before you know it you will be so paranoid that you will think these people are out to get you, or that they sacrifice 10 billion babies for the devil, um the world only has 7 billion people so how is this so? I actually had Christians tell me this!
3) Why do Christians disqualify people from loving God, I have heard people say a person can’t love God if they are gay, a witch, an alcoholic, a back slider, angry at Christians because they were hurt by them, confused about God, curious about God but not yet accepting of Him, or worse, they believe that you can’t come to God until you repent, say 10 hail Mary’s, kiss the ring of the preacher’s finger, read the bible, pass the “Revised Sanctioned” church test and bully and shame non Christians that refuse to worship God the way the “Sanctioned” Christian church tells you to worship Him.
4) Why do Christians focus on a person’s sin instead of their love for God? If a person professes their love for God, focus on their love and encourage that love to Grow, don’t tear down a vulnerable fragile person that’s just starting to come to grips that they are starting to love God! That is exactly what the devil would want a Christian to do! Tear a person down and disqualify them from being a Christian, “Your not good enough to love God” “You have to clean up your life before you can come to God!” “You’re not obedient so you have no right to come to God!” “Faith without works is dead so you can’t be saved by grace alone!” Really? That is so disgusting! Sorry!
I’m going to leave these concerns and pray that you understand my frustrations with judgmental Christians. I am a Witch, I love God and yet Christians are going to condemn me because they think their interpretations of the bible justifies them to judge me? They don’t understand my circumstances! They haven’t a clue of who I am, what I been through or even why I love God! The only thing Christians need to know about me is that I love God, I trust in Him, I believe in His son Jesus and what He did to forgive my sins! I don’t think Witchcraft is a sin, but if it is I guarantee you that is not my worst sin against God that is what I find so amazing about Christians Naïveté! I also want Christians to know that Wiccans and Pagans do not worship the devil and are not plotting to destroy Christians in their religious services or personal life. If Christians understood people of other faiths perhaps they could stop “Demonizing” them and see them as human beings that chose to see God or Goddess in a different way. A mature Christian can have fellowship with people of other faiths and still hold on to their values of Christianity! Pagans and Wiccans are not in the recruiting business, they believe it is up to each person to decide for themselves what is right for them. Even if it means their desire to leave Paganism for Christianity that is fine with them because a person has to follow their heart, to chose from their own free will of what God or Goddess they should follow even if they want to follow the one True God that Christians believe in! That is fine because a person can’t be coerced, bullied, threatened, or mistreated simply because they are following their own free will. In conclusion I chose of my own free will to love God! My Witchcraft and other alleged sins is something I have to deal with on a personal basis with God and only God. Christians can’t help or condemn me with issues I have to work out with my God. The only thing a Christian needs to do is have faith in me and in God and not to meddle unless I ask for help. The only thing I need to know is that I love God, you love God and that is great! You are part of my family, and if you totally reject God that is fine too! You are still part of my family, because God is very patient and understanding and will always be there when you need Him, isn’t that a better message then the hate judgmental Christians have in their proselytizing of Him to people of other faiths?
I live in South Bay,. California.
Christian people are very mean.
I always wanted to believe in God but these christian people are really mean.
I read of one super secularist who later converted to true Christianity after an Asian prison camp experience say that the religious people in the prison camp had the absolute best excuses for their selfish behaviors during tough times like during that prison camp experience. It was rare to see unselfish Faith (like the main character from Chariots of Fire who actually died at that same prison camp)because those with official church titles seemed to feel the most sanctified in their self-centeredness. Grotesque stuff but believable all the same. Praise the Lord who puts up with us.
It’s good to hear the admission of truth with Christians. I have had terrible experiences with Christians and it seems it’s on going.
I would trust a person living in a shelter or a drug dealer before I would trust the word and actions of a Christian. Isn’t it suppose to be Christ-like?!
Sadly I will not count my self as a Christian, although I have been one, but I keep that quite, so I am not judged by non believers.
Isn’t it about the great commission,to tell others, who wants to be part of that when you look down your noses at the single mother, prostitute or some one in the LGBQT community.
Is God’s love and grace not given to those sinners, didn’t the teaching with the woman at the well show the right way.
Is there such thing in this world today as a church that accepts all for worship. Would Jesus while on earth turn any of them away, why do church and its people feel they have rose above God as if they were sinless.
We are living in trying times and as the world fills with people and we approach the same wickedness at the time of Noah, you would think there would be a difference.
Where can one go, to learn, to grow in faith and love, if not at a church… are the true at heart forced to worship alone and in private.
I used to goto church till about 3 years ago when a visiting missionary said that taking meds for anxiety and stuff is evil. I walked out of the service and church that night. I finally came to terms that the church is a bad place for people with mental illness.
To be fair, they weren’t following Jesus’ commandments. Something I’ve noticed is that the less paletable Christians often completely forget Matthew 4:5-7. To save you the time looking it up, here’s the NIV version:
[5] Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. [6] “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'”
[7] Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'”
Jesus himself says that you can’t just let God fix all your problems, he’s got a universe to run. He gave us the tools and doctors to fix ourselves and wants us to use those big squishy brains he gave us.
I’m not a Christian, but it’s dishonest to say that all churches are bad.
Love your take on us Christians it’s true
I’m learning to love all and clearly fall short of Jesus way looking the people he helped and helped me
Just two things when I’m aware of my sin I ask God to forgive me and accept his forgiveness this takes yet another burden off me.
Plus I have let the sun go down on wrath many times in my life rejecting many people this also needs healing bit by bit and I have benefited from it thank God
God bless your ministry richard
Hurt people hurt people
Last year, in the midst of lots of people behaving reeeaaally badly, was when I made the choice to walk with Him. My reasoning was that I’d rather associate with people of a higher moral caliber who were possessed if an actual moral compass. In the last year, I’ve been reminded of why I was Godless and avoided church like the plague. My walk with Him is deeply personal and I don’t wish for it to be corrupted by what I see in churches; a cult like mentality whereupon judgement is freely passed upon those who don’t measure up, whether in the church or not, and the woke virus infecting churches terribly. I’m far from perfect, but I’m struggling and striving to be a better man, and I fail to see how going to church can somehow aid in that. While I’m far from giving up on this, I’m doing it on my own terms, without a middle man between me and Him. Churchgoers can insist I’m doing this wrong all they want, but who are they to tell me so–simply because I disagree with them? No thank you.
When I looked up “Woke Virus” on wikipedia, it took me to an article titled “Superhuman Samurai Syber-Squad”. Wonder how that happened.
Not trying to nag or anything, I just found this wildly amusing.
I would like to have a serious discussion with you. No blaming or self-righteous judgments. I think you misunderstand Christianity. There is noone perfect or blameless. Nonetheless, I believe that many persons expect anyone who is a Christian to behave perfectly and when they don’t (which inevitably happens with all human beings) they immediately consider that proof positive that Christianity is a joke, fraud, hypocricy, etc. I would like for you to be able to understand what it really means to be a Christian and to have spiritual peace and connection to God through Jesus Christ. This is a moment of decision for you. Everyone HAS to decide what they are going to do with Jesus. You must make a decision, is he a Liar, Lunatic, or Lord – or you could decide he was just a mythical person who never lived. One thing you cannot do is NOT make a decision on this issue.
If it makes you feel any better, as a non-religious person, I don’t typically associate one’s attitude and actions with a religion unless they openly say so, and even then, I just see it as them misusing their religion to hurt others. People who assume a whole group is evil due to the bad behavior of a few select individuals are dumb dumbs. :p
And I know I don’t speak for everyone, but I do believe this is how the vast majority of…*adult* atheists feel. A lot of us are hurt by these bad “christians” and we speak out in anger at our past abuse, but wounds heal and we eventually learn they don’t really represent the religion as a whole. Try not to let them upset you too much.
I know christians who deliberately alienate the more unfortunate members from the rest of the world. These christians do what they can do to cause more misery than a catastrophe would do and I definitely do not appreciate them. This is a major reason why I refuse to join anyone’s church; they call themselves “children of God” when, in fact, they are doing satan great favors by their actions. I wouldn’t step foot into a church today if you paid me. I wouldn’t want to be tainted by their very FALSE premises and I don’t see a church member as a “child of God” either.
Oh come now, not ALL churches are bad. Hell, I’d go so far as to argue the vast majority of them do good work. That being said, I do agree that the Christians who often think they’re obeying God’s word harder than other Christians by being jerks to everyone else do make the religion as a whole that much more off putting.
We need to condemn the churches that hurt people in the name of their twisted religion, but don’t discount the works of *good* Christians.
…and this is coming from an atheist, geez.
The damage incurred is the work of Satan. So much pain has been endured from men inflicting their own brands of what is right in the name of Christianity. It has to be God who puts it all back together because the damage is so great.
Hi,
I’ve seen a lot of people benefit from religion…of many different faiths. I spent the first 8 years of my life being forced to go to Christian churches that spoke of kindness, forgiveness, trust, loyalty, love, family and many other good things. Then church would be over for the day and families who appeared eager to arrive were now eager to leave. Many, including my father (who studied to be a priest) had anger issues and used religion as an excuse to behave poorly, usually to their own detriment.
My parents divorced when I was 8 and my grandparents would try to make me feel bad if I didn’t read the “Portals of Prayer” pamphlets they sent. I’ll go down painful tangents if I continue. I understand many benefit and I encourage them to continue, but to keep their eyes open for the tropes of religion that often trap people into a puritan based life style where they miss the best that life has to offer in lieu of acceptance into Heaven as long as they ask forgiveness for their wrong doings. While no other religion is acceptable to them.
At its core, this behavior is un-christian. As are well over 3/4 of the self-proclaimed “Christians” I met after going back to Church when I was 17-19 years old. It’s a money scam at best.
Real religion is found in one’s heart. Never in a physical building. Buildings, priests, churches etc didn’t exist at the start of humanity and they are not necessary to prove one’s dedication to the betterment of humanity. Which is what religion was original created (by man) to do.
Humans wrote the bible and edited it for thousands of years. Imagine a 30 minute telephone storeygame. Now imagine a multi-millenia story game.
It’s not the same story now as it was when it was first told. It will be vastly different 1, 2, 3000 years from now. We can’t even keep a 150 year old book like Tom Sawyer in its original text because people disagree about its effect. Same deal happened and happens with the bible.
It’s a lot of mixed up words there and I can I could care less about Tom Sawyer I’m sorry but The Bible and its translations can be traced back to the original text and there is no doubt it is the original text. I’m 57 years old And I promise that there’s only 66 books in this world that are Original and that is the 66 books Of The Bible. Steve you can set and judge others but what they do However you will not use that excuse in judgment. It’s all I can do to take care of me and you and using God’s word is a foundation and a building block for blessings and love and shed that love Abroad. I can’t help what you feel about The Bible but I know that it is infallible. And one reason I know that it is infallible God spoke about his word that he protected it more than his own name. I have never found one scripture that failed However with Tom Sawyer We are depending on men that were not inspired by God so therefore no book could be assured. But that is just the opposite with the word of God. We can make this argument all day long but it is not for me to argue but to love And to love mankind. But if you think God’s word is untrue and I look at the prophecies of the Bible and how that they are coming to pass And I know what’s getting ready to take place and how many people are going to die. Because it is written in scripture and we are facing pandemics like we have never faced as a whole and a world with such technolog all of this written over 2000 years ago and some of it 3500 years ago. I put my hope and trust in that word more than I would put in any word today Even to the point of having something in my hand. I am sure of God’s word. It has never failed me.
Not to be mean, but that’s objectively false. Along with the canonical scriptures, there are also several books referred to as the “New Testament Apocrypha” that were basically removed by the Catholic church around 500 AD. I’m not saying you have to view them as books of the modern Bible (as Steve said, it does change over time), but they’re at the very least worth checking out. There are some interesting stories in their about Jesus’ childhood.
Our family is christian. we read the bible. we dont go to church. ever. and the absolute worst christians we come across are “missionaries”. Impossible people drunk with their christianity high horse.
One only needs live the way of jesus. nothing else need apply.
They all seem to be this way. I have not met one “missionary” that can just be a normal human being.
Hi, random atheist visitor here. This was an interesting read and exposed a lot of truthhoods. Often times one of the main reasons I avoid a particular christian is if they tend to display, well, basically any of the above, for any of the above reasons. Having been raised in a southern baptist home, I was forced as a child to read the entire Bible front to back multiple times, watch preachers literally all day 5 days out of the week, etc. The thing that instantly puts me off most of the time is when a christian will pick one particular verse they agree with while ignoring one literally two verses over. Or when they justify crime or injustice using some out of context line from the Bible.
Should mention, I have no ill will to Christians as a group. Just the ones that try to use their religion as a weapon rather than a message. You know the ones.
Hi Nemo,
I am genuinely curious about your thinking and want to say this in a nice way.
If in fact there is no God, as you say you believe, who are you to decide what is “injust” or “criminal” for someone else? If we are just bio-matter that for some inexplicable reason have consciousness for a short time, but soon will cease to exist all together and later all consciousness will cease to exist, why shouldn’t we be illogical or justify whatever we want to, as long as we feel like doing it? Are not all things, including those, “permissible” if there is no God or objective standard for morality?
Thank you for a reply that may help me understand your thinking about things.
Peace,
Here are two extra reason why people who call themselves “Christian” might be mean.
1. They may not actually be Christians. I believe it is possible, even likely, that many people who call themselves Christian are not actually saved. They may in some sense think they are, but do not truly believe that Jesus is Lord (which they show by willfully choosing not to follow His commands) or they may be out right hypocrites, who are using the name of “Christian” or Church attendence in order to look good to others or to network.
2. If people are actually Christian, it is likely, I think, that to some degree they are being regularly harrassed by enemy spirits or by the world system. It is easier to be kind, polite, and live a “nice” life, when you are going with the current and the world and the “prince of the power of the air” are happy with what you’re doing. (This goes both for secular people with well managed lives and for religious people who embrace a false gospel.) It causes a fair deal of stress and “friction”, though, to “swim against the current” and follow Jesus. This is not an excuse, but I think it is why true Christians may some times not be as kind as we should.
My own experience is that I lived a fairly secular life until my mid-20’s and have lived a fairly “Christian” life since then. I have friends who are Christian and who are not Christian, socialize a bit among “church people” and interact with people in the world. My take is that although there are differences between people in the chruch and people not in the church, it doesn’t necessarily strike me that one group is “nicer” than the other. Perhaps if I were not a Christian, though, I would have a different experience, since I suppose people tend to “like their own”.
God bless everyone! In any case don’t let mean Christians keep you from being saved from hell – believe in Jesus anyway! (He truly did rise from the grave, as can be supported by research and logic.)
We must become vigilant even in church. Secular music has no business in any church function, Jesus is supposed to be the Focus of why Christians unite not because of a function that is supposed to be a refreshing time and turns out to be a money raising event.
When this occurs it’s time to make an exit.
Matthew 21:12-13
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Sorry, but there is some excellent “secular” music out there. If you can’t see the good and the wholesome in the world, you are not looking. Jesus called us to be in the world, not of the world.
I love god and put my full trust in him he comes first and relay on him not just as a person but to look over my family and that’s NO excuse
This article brings to memory a Sunday morning incident in the foyer of a church where I was assaulted physically and told I do not belong there. This was the word given supposedly directly from GOD and further he also said I was to leave ASAP. Not understanding what was going on and confused I began questioning what was happening. Then the strong arm routine started with nearly being knocked backward plus attempts to strike my face. It escalated immediately with my parrying and counter moving to render him unable to continue(a fisticuff). So this is showing love as an ambassador for Christ? Praise the Lord and pass the offering plate! No explanations were offered but the commands from the throne were enforced after the onlookers came to his rescue. After all, birds of a feather flock together, right? A sly follow-up to FYI my curiosity revealed the church was polluted with members of a certain world wide secret society of dubious origin and beliefs . No small wonder the actions done were so austere.
What about a fellow brother or sister in Christ calls out your sins in front of a bunch of other Christians?
Well my sons daughter lied on me. I asked her about her lie, she laughed and said no reason to lie, just say you did it. I’ll still love you. I said no. She. Her mother and brother stopped speaking to me. So I obliged them. They became upset because I spoke to others and not to them. I say the Bible says to separate yourself from the wrong doers. I am not trying to treat them as they treat me but I dont want to be a part of their divisive behavior. If they speak to me. I’ll speak to them but they still complain that I only speak to them if they speak to me.
Misleading others to believe their missing out on something and presenting things or actions to cause the downfall of another Christian. I saw a lot of Christians ween their way into other’s relationships or giving advise that set someone up for failure and the people they did it to had lookup to them for spiritual guidance. Also getting upset when something is said to them about their own display of judging others . I saw my church totally torn apart because of mean hearted Christians in the church. Everyone we think is on their way to heaven we may be surprised when we get there.
Sad how your own church members don’t interact with you on social media!
How about Christians who openly show their disdain for others right in front of everyone. Even in church. They act polite but they are fake.
Well have a got a story for you. True. This senior lady at our church gave us a coat. She didn’t say who it was for just gave it away. Well that coming Sunday I wore the coat and noticed she seemed angry about it. Didn’t take me long to find out that the coat was for my mom and not myself. This lady is supposed to to be a seasoned Christian, as they say. About 75-80 yrs old. You know if I had a coat to give away I wouldn’t mind who wore it, as long as they got use of it. And I’m way younger. Hmm you’d think being older and wiser she’d been nice about the situation, like I would have. I guess that some Christians have good personality and others don’t. And one last thought came to my mind, what must God have thought about her actions?
This was a very good article. I have been raged at by a fellow believer. It’s very hard to recover from. She is a member of our family. Making it doubly hard. Maybe I’m just wanting sympathy. I don’t know. I’m trying to deal with this as Jesus would. He was despised and rejected…..
Don’t think for one second that everyone that says they’re a Christian is really a Christian. I remember being a teenager and thinking I was a Christian simply because I was born in a “Christian “ country, the U.S.A.
Fast forward several years, and I realized I was not a Christian, after hearing my Aunt say we must be born-again (John 3;3).
I’d never heard that in all my years of attending a (certain denomination I won’t name) church, all my life, every single Sunday. I did all the religious things, and would have sworn on a stack of Bibles that I was a Christian, but I was not!! Not until I was in my late 20’s, did I truly ask Jesus to save me, and THEN I became a Christian. What passes for Christianity is not real Christianity, and that’s why you’ll see clergy that molest little children with no remorse, for example. It’s because they have never had their HEART changed, they’ve only practiced religiosity, and that’s two totally different things. Only true faith in Jesus can change a heart. When the heart changes, so does the behavior. Christian’s have been handed a bad rap sometimes, even though, yes, we need to work on our behavior, often people associate us with bad priests, or bad church members, who may not be actual Christians at all. Just calling oneself a Christian doesn’t make it so. No true Christian would molest a child, and would do everything they could to protect children from abuse of any kind.
It’s not a sin to stay away from abusive people, relatives or not. She may simply be a narcissist,or have other issues like that. Stay away from those who try to scapegoat you. True we can’t hate them,are supposed to pray for them, but they don’t have to be in our lives. That kind of abuse is something to avoid. You got wounded, it’s not a case of just looking for sympathy. Find those who care for and about you. Hang around them, instead of scapegoaters.
Thank you for your comment. This brought me great comfort. Bless you
I live in Utah. I find Evangelicals who come here are very ignorant about Mormons. Somehow they think because they read some book or anti Mormon literature that they are experts. Mormons or Latter Day Saints are not stupid. They have reasons for what they believe. They think Evangelicals are the members of a cult and are not Christian. Mormons do not say this because they are trying to be polite or realize it will only lead to more persecution of Mormons.
Hi Larry,
People in general are not stupid, but that doesn’t mean they are correct about everything they believe.
Let me ask you a question: Is Jesus the same as the God of Israel from the Old Testament who called Himself “I AM”?
John 8:58 would make you think ‘yes’, because Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” But in John 8:54 it is recorded that Jesus said, “It is My Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.'”
Is it Jesus or His Father that is the God of Israel who spoke with Moses? Or are They two Persons of the same Being?
Don’t Mormons say Jesus was only a prophet, and not the Son of God, as the Bible states!? Unless you believe in the Jesus of the Bible, whom God calls His Son, and that He Died for the sins of the world, (to those who believe in Him), and rose again on the third day, you are not saved. A man who was merely a prophet can not save the world from their sins. Jesus is not merely a prophet, nor was He only a “good man”. (Flesh cannot save flesh). If you don’t believe in THAT Jesus, through whom God says ALL men must be saved, then you’re believing in a false “Jesus”, and not the real one….But don’t take MY word for it, do some research and ask God Himself to show you if what I say is true or not, in a way that only HE can do it. But be willing to hear what HE has to say, and keep an open heart. You might be surprised.
After at least 50 years in an evangelical church and went to their seminary the lies and abuse was so terrible I had to seek psychiatric help and feel I will never be well again even though I am a born again Christian. Another pentecostal church I went to off and on at the same time for 50 years with no incident and gave them lots of money said I was no longer welcome and would not give a reason. I would never go near a church again no matter what. I am 72 now and in good health and will continue to send money to God’s work but would not touch these born again evangelical Christians with a 20 foot pole. They discriminated against me for my marital status when I was the innocent party and then because of being bi polar when I never caused any trouble for them. They have absolutely no integrity at all to say the least.
Thank, you! That is why I am VERY selective about what ministries I give to. I have stayed out of these so called Church buildings, for wrong teachings and giving, but being treated, like a criminal by certain people there, because I needed help. Not the Pastors fault, but the finacial dept at the Church. “(I guess they were afraid of me taking money out of their buiding fund or something?) Again not the Pastor, but the finacial dept of all places. ALL about money with so many of them; an so many are not even that focused on helping people in the community. Be Blessed in the Lord Jesus Denise!
On behalf of Christians, I apologize for that kind of hurtful behavior. Its too bad many divorced women (and men) are discriminated against even when the spouse is at fault. Just know that not all Christian churches are like that. In fact, having been a member of a Catholic Church, and then of a more evangelical church, I can say when it came to that, the Catholic Church was much worse about it. That’s what I witnessed; I’m only going by my experience. One of my aunts was not divorced herself but married a divorced man, and she was not allowed to take communion with the rest of the congregation, but there was no such rule in the Christian “evangelical “ church I attended. Her husband had divorced his wife ONLY after she’d abandoned him and their young son and stayed gone for several years. In that case it was his spouse that was at fault, not him, but he and my aunt were treated like second class citizens of the church, which caused him to not want to attend. But in the evangelical church divorcees were not treated differently than widows, or single women, or married women for that matter. And the same for the men. Everyone was allowed to take communion as long as they had confessed any known sin beforehand. It’s not normal behavior (discrimination against divorced people, I mean) in most evangelical churches. I’ve never come across it, except in the Catholic Church. Unfortunately it happened to you, and I’m sorry it did. I pray it causes you to get even closer to God because I can guarantee you, HE would never condone such hurtful behavior.
Christian Family members that scapegoat another causing chaos and destruction to the scapegoats life then claim, “it’s God’s plan for you.”
Yeah; talk about “wolves in sheeps clothing!”
I think a lot of Christians act like to go to church they’re already supposed to be shaved & or a Christian. When you’re supposed to welcome all how am I supposed to be able to ever go to a church & possibly get saved if I’m made to feel a bad type of way?
Sorry for any typos!
Yeah, very good point; I remember hearing of an incident several years ago, when a Pastor went “incognito,” to a Church somewhere in Texas. (he was wanting to test the character of the Church first; “testing waters and all of that.) Getting to the point; he went as a dirty homeless person, sat outside of the building on the steps, before and after the service.
At one point, one of the Deacons I guess, came out and told him that he needed to leave because he was upsetting people there. (Here comes the “undercover Boss part…) The Pastor, wasted no time, getting up and upon removing his disguise, began to speak about how he WAS going to be the new Pastor there; now however, after seeing how people there treated homeless people, he flatout REFUSED to Pastor there! A tree is known by it’s fruits, saith the Lord Jesus. This is how the enemy, satan AKA (LOSER)fer, has set up these types of Churches, to make people who would otherwise convert, not want anything to do with Christ at all, because these people make Christianity look very bad, whic in turn makes God and Jesus, look very bad… Be Blessed Cassie!
So the pastor refused to be the pastor of a church that didn’t welcome the homeless, and he thought that was the best way to handle it? Wouldn’t it have been better to become the pastor there, so he could change the attitude of the church and make it BETTER? He could have led by example, and maybe his leadership would have been exactly what the church needed. Maybe God wanted him to show love and concern toward the “least of these” and in so doing, change the hearts of the congregation. I say if that’s a true story, that pastor sure missed the point by a country mile.
“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” Matthew 10:22
That is the reason some Christians think, that if they are persecuted.. (after they treated someone bad – and thought it was out of love) that it really is because they are fulfilling this verse.. Or that this verse is becoming real in their lifes.. And it even motivates to let them be more harsh, more egoistic and even more selfloving then before..
Don’t belive God is happy about this.
Boy ain’t it the truth! That is another one of satan aka (LOSERfer’s) tacitcs. He causes people who believe to become self rightious and act as if they are doing God a favor, when they treat others this way. Christ clearly states that we are as believers, to LOVE one another and to “treat others, the way we would want to be treated!” I cannot understand, why so many professed Christians are not reading this and getting the picture; what I think might be causing this, is that many Churches are cherry picking verses from the Old Testament and telling people that you have to do this and that ( basically performing to earn your Salvation,) instead of actually seeking to live and walk like Jesus clearly said to as a “true believer;” which means loving others, seeking to forgive others for wrongs they have done, being kind to others, showing grace and mercy to others, as they themselves would like to have shown to them. This of course in this struggle with the flesh is always as they say “easier said than done.” (And every believer deals with this.) Be blessed in the Lord Jesus!
I think there’s a place for popcorn and movie nights in church fellowship practices, not as the message.
Also, I’m sorry David had a rough go of Care Groups – I was in a clunker once, but a few others that were spectacular for creating community. One with a young married couple who felt a lot of pressure by well-meaning family members to have children when they knew they weren’t ready. They desperately wanted them, but also wanted to provide a stable home. We prayed for them to find strength in God’s plan, honored their mature decision to plan thoughtfully for children, and prayed God’s Providence for when the time was right.
Fast forward 6 years, two new jobs with insurance, a house, a three year old and 6 month old later, they’re loving being parents. I’m blessed to know them on a deep level and get to be Auntie T!
Yes, I’m a fellow believer, I was so shocked when I would ask a sister out for a cup of coffee, or go to a amusement park. She rained down on me with fury. They read, I kissed dating goodbye, by Joshua Harris. I really had honest intentions, I was a divorced dad of two kids, missed having a wife. The x is on her third marriage now, we were not yolked. I was new to that church also, non denominational. Who wants to go out with evil woman like that. She was over thirty and full of anger and hatred for men, wether a brother or not. After awhile you just want to leave the church. Men going out with men seemed the norm there. My dad and I had a good relationship, he was my best friend besides mom. They stayed together till death. We all went to church together when I was young, that felt like a family. I don’t know what’s wrong with women now, it’s a throw away society. I’m from the older generation, we had respect for women back then. I can see why people are leaving the church. I sat in the pew alone every sermon. Women just stay away in their clique’s. Complaining that nobody asks the out, OMG we have tried. Some men are to scared, me I’m out going, and pray 🙏 first. I know men who have given up, now very old and still single. They were hurt and never asked again. I’m tired of all this pride in the churches, you give your time and money to them, then they forget you. Seems like they are wearing blinders on. Better to move on then to stay in a toxic church.
Psalms 18:47-49 (KJV) 47 [It is] God that avengeth me, and subdueth the people under me. 48 He delivereth me from mine enemies: yea, thou liftest me up above those that rise up against me: thou hast delivered me from the violent man. 49 Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name.
Belief in “hell”. Especially ETERNAL conscious torment leads many people to treat non Christians the way they believe God will treat those not interested in the FREE gift of forgiveness and grace. The Good News really is GOOD. If Christians would just start loving and treating others as Jesus did we wouldn’t have to threaten them.
homeless unemployed alcoholic/drug addicted CHRISTIANS deserve government charity
The Protestant Mafia (Southern Baptist Convention) makes organized crime look like child’s play. You’re either on their bus or it WILL run you over.
Excellent piece. I’d like to add that Jesus was a “fisher” of men. He didn’t club them (“fish/men”) over the head to follow him. The “lure” he used to “hook/catch” them was the example he gave in living his truths.
A church building is a coliseum of the lost, the saved and a multitude of personalities,of different ages, put it together and the gladiators our out to fight. In all this trying to get along , to witness ,and the lost wondering why there where they are. If the church does not start loving each other and be examples to the lost; remember the lions are in the arena also!
The only part of this article that I contend with, is when the writer states that Christians are sinners.
Romans 5:8-9 states otherwise for Christians…
8.But God proves His love for us in this: (While we were still sinners,) Christ died for us. 9.Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!… Yes Christians do still struggle with sin, but Christ Justified believers with his blood. I do see how many Christians take this as a “green light,” to treat others with a sense of being beneath them. A (true Christian,) will actually strive to walk and act the way Christ did, while here an Earth. This is the key factor, in determining who is a “true Christian” and who is just wanting an excuse to look down on others… Be blessed in the Lord Jesus my Christian Brothers and Sisters!
To Mr. Meyers: I read through each point. Although I agree with some, it’s hard to tell that you’re a Christian yourself. Sorry but how is it okay to bash Christians while making it sound like unbelievers are “better people?” First of all, salvation is not about behavior, it’s about believing. Some of the so-called nicest people you know may not get to heaven because they thought “good behavior “ would get them there. They’re the ones that believe all they have to do is be “good people”, and nice, and that somehow paves their way to heaven. I’ve met some mean Christians, I’m not gonna lie. But I’ve also met some mean unbelievers. I don’t know where you hang out but where are you finding all these nice and forgiving unbelievers?….Christians should be a better example to unbelievers. I agree with that, but one thing I’ve noticed is unbelievers always criticize Christians for trying to preach the gospel to them and convert them to Christianity. Even that can be “mean” according to unbelievers. But haven’t you ever encountered an atheist who is trying to convince others that God does not exist? I know I have. Often it’s THEM that brings up God, (or rather their insistence that God does not exist) while after a while it’s you that’s trying to change the subject. Atheist in my experience have been worse about pushing their “religion”, atheism, than they claim Christians to be. If and when we mention God and Jesus it’s because we are more concerned for their souls than they are for themselves. We know we are not perfect, but it’s because we know that, we are eternally grateful for Gods gift of salvation through His son Jesus Christ. We know we can’t earn it and don’t deserve it, and no, that’s not an excuse for bad behavior, but we are all a work in progress. Always pointing out how “well behaved “ unbelievers are compared to believers does THEM no favors, since that’s all they need to deny that believing in God through faith in Jesus doesn’t make any real difference, because they think they can be nice on their own, and surely if they’re nice God will admit them into heaven, so why bother with all that “religious “ talk? If you know mean Christians, pray for them….but don’t give unbelievers more excuses to not come to Christ, by agreeing with them about how mean Christians are. Oftentimes, no one has the guts to tell them that something they’re doing is wrong, but if they turn to God and Jesus, He can help them change. They call us homophones but I’ve never hated a gay person in my life. It’s not the person we hate, it’s the sin. If a mother has a child that has cancer, that mother will hate the cancer. Does that mean she hates the child because he has cancer? NO, it’s her love for her child that causes her to hate the cancer because the disease has the power to harm her child. Gay sex is a sin but so is adultery, pornography, rape, fornication, pedophilia, etc… Everyone wants to cry when someone says homosexuality is wrong, but have no problem saying adultery between heterosexuals is wrong. Guess what? They’re BOTH a sin according to the Bible. (To anyone doubting that, google scriptures that mention homosexuality in the Bible. God has nothing positive to say about it, in fact He says it’s unnatural and an abomination) if that makes us mean, then I guess never saying anything at all is better, right? For real though, I’d rather tell someone they’re headed for a cliff, than watch them fall off the cliff because warning them might “offend them”, and I want them to like me. Imagine if us being nice, according to them, causes them to feel comfortable in their sin, because we never say anything, and because of that, they don’t think they’re doing anything wrong. They feel no need for Jesus because they’re lead to believe they can be good people without Him, even better than those mean, “pesky” Christians, right? I’ve been embarrassed by the behavior of some Christian’s, but one thing I’ve also experienced is people CLAIMING to be Christians who aren’t Christians at all. True Christianity has been “framed” by people calling themselves Christians, but really aren’t.
You’re right, Louisiana lady. I hope Jeremy is not pretending here. Great observation.
Hi Louisiana lady,
I hope you’re doing well and staying safe in 2023.
You made some very good points in your comment here, and I resonate with, I think, pretty much everything you said. Here are my thoughts:
1. Let’s face it, Christian or non Christian, we all possess a talent for unkindness, both with family as well as with strangers and others. It doesn’t make it right, of course, but as long as we live in this sin filled world, unkindness will always be an unfortunate part of human nature until Jesus returns.
2. With regards to sharing Jesus with others, here are my thoughts as to why some (perhaps many) non Christians are so opposed to hearing a gospel presentation:
a. They have what I believe, is a pretty common misconception that we are “trying to convert them”, when the fact is, we can’t. We don’t have that power. Only God, the Holy Spirit, can convert a person and lead them to Christ and repentance. All we can do is give them the facts, the gospel (we broke the Law, the 10 Commandments, Jesus paid our fine) and leave the decision up to the individual.
b. Atheism, as well as agnosticism, is sometimes nothing more than an excuse for a sinner to continue on with their sin. As long as an unbeliever can stay convinced in their belief that God doesn’t exist, then they are “free” to continue to sin. To them, no God, no Judgement Day, until the moment they die and find themselves standing before, and being judged by, the very God they denied. And then it’s too late for them. No second chances and no salvation; only God’s righteous wrath for their unconfessed sins.
c. Because non Christians are blinded by their own sin (as we once were), they don’t understand that their definition of love is far different from the biblical definition of love. True Christian love is not affirming a sinner’s sin, making their descent into hell (unless they repent) more comfortable, it’s having the guts to confront unrepentant, self-righteous sinners *about* their sins, in love, with gentleness and with respect, the way Jesus did:
-the rich young ruler
-the woman at the well, Jn 4
-the paralytic, Jn 5
-the adultress, Jn. 8
d. “For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will (Romans 8:7).”
Share Jesus anyway.
God bless you, Louisiana lady. I look forward to meeting you in heaven someday.
Maranatha!
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You’re sweet. And you’re right, we aren’t saved by works. But you are still way wrong. If you are going to choose an example of sin, choose a real one. Had to smile at ‘homophone’…that’s a word that sounds like another word…new and knew are homophones. You meant homophobic…meaning uncomfortable with gay relationships…which you may or may not be. Not for me to say. But you are wrong about it being sin in and of itself. If something is not harmful then it is not sin. Period. Two mature adults who commit to fidelity, honor and support are not sinful.
So, if I point out your use of “pissing off” as vulgar and sinful language, you’re really going to say, “You know what, you’re right! I’m sorry-I should have used another word?”
I’m waiting…?
What about God being such a rotten evil low life scumbag when he punished many of us men with singleness for no reason at all? Many of us really wanted to be married with our own family just like so many millions and millions of others that were very lucky when they met their loved ones. What in the world did we do wrong anyway when i know other single friends that feel the very same way just like i do? Then again had God created many normal women like the old days which then we would had met the right good woman for many of us as well. Most women nowadays as it is are so very rotten and evil as well when it comes to many of us very serious men looking for love. There will be times when these low life loser women for no reason at all will curse at many of us single men when we will just try to start a conversation with them by just saying good morning or hello, and i know other single friends that had this happened to them as well. What is that all about anyway? Very mentally disturbed women all over the place these days unfortunately since God created these real pathetic fools in the first place. Everyone of us deserve to be loved as well as give love back in return. Not to mention that many of us men aren’t single by choice in the first place. Just too many narcissists and feminists women everywhere now, and such real basket cases altogether too. God what in the world did you do to these women today?
This makes me sad and sick, how Christian people act towards each other and non Christians. There is still snobbery and exclusivity, and that is NOT what Jesus taught. We are not perfect, but there is just no excuse if we want to show people who Jesus is and what he did for all of us. I hope we can do better, but that is up to each person, especially Christians.
Kristi, that guy above your comment is very right by the way. And the way women have really changed today has really caused this problem why so many of us men are still single today, and not by choice either. OMG, most women back in the old days were very completely different compared to today. And then everyone wants to know why so many of us men are still single today. Now i know why our parents and other family members were very lucky back in their time when they met one another. A very different time back then since it wasn’t all about looks and wealth that most of these very pathetic foolish women want today.
My 2¢. My father got “saved” when I was 10yo. This was around 1968 or so. Up until that time he drank a lot and I saw my mother with a black eye every once in a while. My sisters were 6 and 2 and we never really witnessed much violence, but at that age we really didn’t know what was going on.
He changed overnight and quickly it was Church twice on Sunday and prayer meetings on Wednesday. We went to a lot of different churches over the years. For a while we made a 45 minute drive to Rex Humbard’s church near Akron. They all seemed sincere enough, but I never really got “into” any religion. One adage I’ve always tried to follow is “don’t do anything your Mother wouldn’t want to see you doing” This, along with the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments seems to cover every situation I’ve ever run across.
I suppose I’m classified as an agnostic. I know some “higher power” created/started everything. I can respect anyone who is truly a religious person, but the scandals and money grabs are really off-putting to a lot of folks. The most Christian-like man I ever met was an older gentleman named Rev. Pryor. He began his own church and my father followed him and the family attended for a while. It was a small church and he never passed a collection plate; there were boxes by the door if you wanted to pitch in. He was a humble man, drove a decent car and had a modest home. I guess he is my “model” Christian”, not in it for the flash or the cash but a genuine interest in helping people and bringing the message to his congregation.
I like the way you put it, Jeremy.
In summary, those are babies in Christ. They’re the immature. No matured Christian is mean, because he or she is always able to control him or herself. Yes, always and in all things. They know, understand and walk in the Word. Remember, “My people without knowledge perish”. It’s all about growth in the Word.
Great post; thanks for sharing.
Francis Quarshie so true, Amen
Some Christians treat the poor, the addicted, the abused and the desperate as if it is all their own fault. They do not see what backgrounds and challenges these people have had to face. Nor do they care to. Many people do not have the same opportunities that many Christians have. Many public schools rely on property taxes which discriminates against the poor. Many Christians want a fortune for their private schools and want taxes to help pay for them even though they already don’t have to pay any taxes for their Churches. Many Christians are racist and justify it with their bibles. Many are above the less fortunate who need advocates not judgment and are hateful to those in other political parties despite their own lies. Most people just want to have purpose – affordable training, good jobs, living wages, affordable housing and medical care. They don’t want to be outcasts. But the club doesn’t want defects and losers. Just build more prisons. I want to be a better person but life has not been kind and I did not fit into the world. I don’t believe Christ would turn his back on me, but for the longest time, I have turned my back on the church- any of them as they don’t get along anyway. When the hurricanes came through, large stone churches downtown on the highest hills would not open their doors as shelter. And people wonder why people are turning away from the churches. It’s terrible to not know what others expect from you because you come from a different place. I am not a leper, but if I were Christ would not turn His back on me. You can have the prosperity churches too who apparently believe if you are poor or I’ll it’s because you have lost favor with God. There are plenty of evil rich people.
M Jesus doesn’t turn His back on you. He loves you. Holy Spirit please fill M with your love, guidance to other true followers of You, and with Your perfect provision in Jesus’ Holy Name I ask according to the promise that you provide all our needs according to Your riches in glory by Christ Jesus. (((gentlehug)))
Well said, from a recovering addict of the alcoholic variety. Sober 9 months.
The only “apology” I’ve ever gotten from uppity church goers went something like this; “I’m sorry that you’ve taken offense at what I’ve done.” Church goers (especially baptists) are so full of pride, and self righteousness they are unable to fathom the fact they are capable of committing an offense. These are the ones Christ will tell to depart from him because He never knew them. Hell is real, and the majority of church goers are going there.
Bill when people apologize like that, it’s not a true apology. There is nothing heartfelt about it. I really wish tares would read the Bible from cover to cover and stop playing churchianity. Jesus bless you Bill.
….jealousy, resentment, low self esteem, lack of confidence, cliques, social status, snobbiness, legalism, poor social skills, mental problems, attitude problems, unhappy in their life so they take it out on others.
Isn’t it true her’ Reich Marshall that you once told the Luftwaffe that if one bomb fell on Berlin then the German people could call you Meyer .
I wish I were a Herman Goering wiener and everyone could live under Nazi tyranny .
You raised some good points here regarding unbiblical and ungodly Christian conduct from those who profess Christ as Savior and Lord, yet do not represent him in his true light to our unsaved neighbors: godliness, compassion, and abounding in love, just like Jesus.
The only thing I can add to what you’ve already said is this: regarding the “Christian” who made (makes?) a habit of legally swindling non Christians. Just because you can do something without it being a sin, doesn’t mean you should, nor does it make it right. I would hate to be in that guy’s shoes on Judgement Day.
Just one more thing I want to say and it’s this…
In the same way that it is a terrible witness of Christ’s holy nature when we act like jerks to others, people for whom Christ also died, not just non Christians, but fellow Christians as well, it is also a terrible witness when we use the gutter language the world uses the way you did in this article. I am referring to your use of the phrase, “p_ _ _ _ d off.” That is such an offensive phrase, I can’t even bring myself to say it, and it was very offensive hearing it come from another Christian.
Christians are so mean because GOD is so mean and he made all in his image. think he don’t have a mean Streak?
Look at Job, God knew 1000% job would be faithful and nothing could turn him away from God, so how did God reward this? gave Satan full charge to put job through every kind of misery for as long as he wants and do anything but kill him, wow thanks God what a great friend you are just so you can say haha Satan I win if you don’t believe me treat my number 1 loyalist truest buddy Like crap. still not sure? OK God’s mean bc he has all power and control and commands us even when I allow you to be constantly miserable and everything falls apart and your prayers for my help are ignored, thank me and be joyful and if you don’t, I’ll make you burn forever in hell, He’s a mean narcissist
How about the rampant abuse of babies and children,emotionally, physically,and even sexually ?? It’s almost never addressed,but this is the main reason that young adults leave their churches and parents. They are too big to beat. And can’t be bullied anymore,so they make their great escapes.
I think a lot of Christians don’t understand where this is coming from.
When I say ‘Christians are evil’, I don’t mean they make the same mistakes as everyone else. I mean they are disproportionately more likely to try to take away the freedoms of everyone that is different, and start gaslighting if you call them on it, trying to say you’re persecuting them by not allowing them to act with prejudice. I don’t mean they make mistakes when I say, I mean a majority of them are OUTRIGHT EVIL and somehow believe it’s righteous.
And yes you can say ‘well not all Christians…’ but I have certainly never seen ANY Christians actively stand up to the bullies within their own religion. It’s completely acceptable, it seems, for them to do nothing about it until someone else points at it.
Many Christian’s spend a lot more time in church than they do around worldly people, so of course they’ll have more opportunity to notice bad behavior amongst Christians, than they do amongst unbelievers. So what we see as “kindness “ amongst worldly people may simply be indifference. We Christians just haven’t been around unbelievers often enough or long enough to see their true colors. Many unbelievers will seem nice, but mention the Bible or Jesus in the wrong crowd and they’ll change their tune on a dime. As long as you stay in your lane, in most cases they’ll leave you alone. However, I do agree that Christians can also be mean. I’ve encountered many of them. There should be something different among Gods people but the church has become more like the world every day, instead of the other way around. After attending the same church for almost 40 years I’m at the present time not in any church. I still love God and I’m still serving Him but I couldn’t bare the hypocrisy any longer. That doesn’t mean I’m siding with the world over the church because I’m not. They can be even much worse in the long run. Besides, if a person doesn’t know Jesus, their “nice” or “good” deeds are like filthy rags in Gods sight. One of the fruits of the spirit listed in the scriptures is kindness but I can’t say I’ve seen a lot of that in church, even, or if I’m being honest, ESPECIALLY amongst, church leadership. A pastor sets the thermostat for a church, and if a pastor is mean-spirited (mine got increasingly meaner over the years) the congregation will follow. I had to get out because I saw too much. I needed to guard my heart. After all those years, in his eyes I had no clout, even though I’d served in many ministries, most were not necessarily connected to that church, such as a certain prison ministry, (many inmates got saved over the years, even their wardens would comment on how they’d changed), but my pastor was not interested in things he himself didn’t initiate. So if we didn’t teach Sunday school or lead a missions group directly tied to the church he treated us like second class members. Never mind that we’d spent the Saturday before telling crowds of people about Jesus, and leading them to know Jesus as their Savior; pastor wasn’t interested unless HE initiated it. I served for many years on staff at a pro-life crisis pregnancy center and saw many babies and women get saved, yet, even after getting many invitations to our yearly banquets or our breakfast events, he never once attended, nor did he ever mention the issue of abortion in any one of his sermons. Everything I did there, I did without my pastor’s support, when I could have used it at times. I know God anointed me and appointed me to be there, and I had HIS support so that’s all that REALLY mattered. But sometimes it wouldn’t have hurt to have support from my pastor also. I know for a fact that if it had been one of his “pets”, (his members that constantly fed his ego and always agree with him, no matter what), doing those SAME things, he would have been all about supporting them in the same endeavors. Only he would have done it in a way that made it look like it was HIS idea.
Yes, I have another one I see quite often. I call it, “If I Have to Live Unhappily, So Do You”. This usually applies to people who were in a lifestyle that they loved, but from getting too old for it, or having health issues from it, had to give it up. So they converted to legalistic Christianity. I have usually seen this in cases of alcoholism, drug abuse or being gay and getting too old for, and shunned by their peers in the lifestyle. I think the old adage, that there is nothing worse than a reformed smoker aptly applies here.
Here is a thought!
‘Christian’s’ aplenty behave as they do because having never themselves experienced grace, they are in a pre-converted condition and remain essentially untouched by the Gospel.
If seeking incontrovertible evidence of this, the place to look is their family lives — with all their glorious dysfunctionality and brokenness.
And the ‘way out?’ Quit the social snobbery and begin the fool’s pilgrimage to the celestial city.
How profound. Now I’m not a Christian and I’m far from being a saint. But reading this wonderful article, I felt like it was reading an article about my own life while I was married to a “devot Christian” that was holier than thou, could do no wrong, along with her “devot Christian” cronies. Our marriage counselor called her on that B.S., as did her adult children. Nonetheless, denial!…
What comes to mind is this form of reasoning for disobedience to God’s direct Word, to disguise our cruelty toward also our own spiritual family: ‘It would open a can of worms to invite So-And-So to be heard at an elders’ (or all-church) meeting, to specify to him if and what sins of his remain that he could still repent of if given final confrontation: So, let’s skip that step in Matthew 18: 15 – 21, send him a brief message of dismissal from fellowship without explanation, and without clarity on the exact perimeters of that dismissal, nor on means of possible, future restoration; HE’LL FIGURE IT OUT.
If anyone inquires of us, we can blame his rare emotional outburst, any possibly unstable conduct of his (or any suspicious behavior) to say he left us no other choice and therefore TRUST OUR HUMBLE ASSESSMENT AND OUR REPUTATION FOR GODLINESS, WE DID EVERYTHING WE COULD.’
Another excuse to cement lack of concern for a beloved[?], cut-off member: ‘My pastor (and/or influential churchmembers) said Not To Acknowledge to a banished member his Farewell message to any of us where he asked (1)forgiveness [for whatever we’re not directly telling him is offending us – HE should know if he’s got a brain – of which we’re not sure if he’s repenting or not], (2) for our prayers for him, and (3) his hope to someday reconcile with us in fellowship.’ (The above content is from one who is seeking out a wounded member to repent of similar wickedness in myself, toward her).
A p.s. to my previously submitted comment: Still another supposedly benevolent excuse for some pastors and elders (and whole congregation) to avoid granting especially Matthew 18: 17 to an errant but repentant believer (I hurriedly included verses 18 – 21 previously, when I meant to only reference verses 15 – 17, re: church discipline), is to claim Reluctance to Shame or Embarrass the said member in the open, even when that person begs the leaders for that hearing even before the congregation, following a church leaders’ premature decision – and who also offers to peacefully accept whatever outcome afterward.
“Christian” cruelty is frequently, subtly disguised as gentle, pious treatment which – seen in its true colors in light of scripture – should be at least questioned if not finally exposed, for church leaders and flocks to repent of.
Two other reasons. One: they sometimes focus on theology at the wrong time. When I was hospital chaplain family members in a crisis…grieving, frightened, angry, shocked…would sometimes say something perceived as critical of God by another more distant or religious member. I would elect that person to be the worker bee…you need to move their car for them, you need to make some calls, you need to bring some food up here, you need to go get this that or the other thing…etc.
Two: they choose to believe the Bible against all reality …hence two mature adult devout Christians who vow a lifetime of honor, support,and fidelity in shared Christian faith can’t be married because the Bible says so…let’s love them dearly, but no no no marriage. That’s just mean no matter what the Bible says.
So what the hell is your point?
They Bible is just mythology. And like all world-wide mythologies since ancient time, these stories act as a guide, or show us guideposts if you will, for how we should live or navigate through life. And there is nothing wrong with studying or reading mythology, but to take any mythology as a literal, actual fact is engaging in childlike/magical thinking. For example, the Virgin birth represents the move from animalistic living and thinking to being “reborn” at a higher level of consciousness, that which allows for compassion and empathy with one’s fellow man. And indeed, in some depictions, Jesus is “born” from Mary’s side. There are no virgin births of course. All the stories are often beautifully tied together…there must be death (death to your animal self) for their to be new life ( a new life represented by a higher consciousness). Indeed in some ancient cultures, people were sacrificed, pieces of the person were “planted” and from their body parts new life/food grew from the ground. The symbolism doesn’t get more “in your face” and potent than that. (Enter the image of Jesus on the cross, stage left.) And yes, it is through the contemplation of Jesus on the cross that many who identify as Christian develop empathy for their fellow man.
Wow you said that Right! My Parents Always Treated Me like I was a Piece of Shit! And to them I Did Not Deserve to Live let alone Live Happy or Well Thankyou telling the Truth of this Religion Crap, as My Mother use to do me in when I was 6 years old and I was the Only one Cleaning the House My Sister would Tell Mother a Lie about Me on Supposedly of Not Clean! My Mother would tell me I had a Choice ether The Metal Hanger, the Leather Bult, or a Swich from the willow Tree to Beat Me with! But she Claimed to be a Christian as she Beated Me to a Bruise Bloodly Polp! They Hated Me all me life! I was in Loyalsock Elementary School sitting edge of the School Property next to the road and I was asking God what would Happen if I Stood in the Middle the Road and the Fast Cars to hit Me dead ? Would I be Missed by My Family; would they Gave a Damn about Me being Dead and Gone! I was only 7 years old when this was going on as I was Questioning God about their So Called Bullshit Moods about Me Living in their House and Live and how I was Treated like Shit everyday of My life! Sad Excuss of a Family and I am Surprised that I am still Alive Today at age 53 about to be 54 in September 6st, 2023!
@Lori Hammond words can’t even express correctly the anger I feel at them for treating you that way. I’m certain God feels the same way about them. I don’t know why He lets bad people abuse children but I know that He didn’t intend life on earth for us to be this way.
The devil is an asshole and he manipulates humans, lies to them and gets them to do things that anger God. God still has mercy and sends His Holy Spirit out to convict people of being bad. And He is patient, waiting for them to apologize to Him and to the people they hurt. But when they don’t, God is not forceful like the devil and He won’t force anyone to repent. God truly is a kind gentleman. If bad people continue being that way, remember what Jesus said about people who abuse children: “It would be better if a millstone were tied around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.” That’s like having legs and arms bound with a huge cinderblock chained to their necks that they can’t remove and being thrown into the middle of a cold, dark ocean. God doesn’t want anyone to be cast into hell. But if they never apologize for abusing you or any children, He’ll let them go there.
I do know in my heart thought that God is on your side. God cares deeply about you and what you have suffered. Ask Him to take your hand and show you the love and healing that He wants for you, if you haven’t already. He loves you. So do I. Holy Spirit bless you always Lorie <3
Please feel free to contact me if you ever want to just talk. I'm here for you.
How about “you HAVE to forgive me cause “God says so” and if you don’t HE won’t forgive you.
I love how people who are cruel on purpose use this scripture, Luke 17:3 as an excuse to treat others horribly then expect them to just say “oh. Ok. No problem.
God does NOT expect us to just “forgive” and keep allowing others to continue to abuse us.
He would NEVER command us to allow anyone to treat us horribly and then stick around for more.
Luke 17:3-4 defines a precondition of forgiveness of our Christian sibling: repentance! Of course, we cannot hold the World to that standard, so make sure you’re talking to a Christian (1 Corinthians 15:1-8 & Romans 10:9-14a).
I think another reason church people are mean is because they are ‘commanded’ to love and do good to others, even enemies, so I think that command sometimes makes the church person do just the opposite, since of course it’s not easy to love unlovable people.
This statement is why people donnot like supposed christians! There is always some excuse for not loving thy neighbors as Jesus told you! Lets face it, you would rather worship at the alter of Trump than actually follow the teachings of Christ! If Jesus was here he would run you and him out of the temple, shame the people calling for Christian nationalism you cannot force your beliefs on others, that is not Christ like!
Part of the problem, I believe, is that we just assume that Christians are automatically filled with the Holy Spirit when they are born again. Instead of testing ourselves, we just assume the Holy Spirit is in us, and we go merrily along our way attempting to serve God in our flesh, instead of being filled with and led by the Holy Spirit.
It is worse than that!
Christianity has a history. Organized Christianity – the religion itself, under its supreme leaders – burnt hundreds of thousands of people to death for various sins and crimes. Torture was as routine in the medieval church as rape of boys is common in the Church today.
There is something malignant in and of itself in the way that Christian authorities comport themselves. Pagans, by contrast, in recent centuries just have sex. The Church, by contrast, has committed countless murders. This makes the Church much worse than paganism in terms of actual concrete real world behavior.
Just look how very rotten and evil that God is today, and he is working with the liberals to destroy our America now as it is. Go figure.
oh my dear, I hope I speak for millions of Christians who aren’t mean at all.
I’m sorry you’ve encountered such people; they are a product of whatever upbringing/experiences, etc .. and it’s no reflection on an entire faith. As for thinking we’re the ‘elite’, HAH!!! I’m alive ONLY because Jesus chose to save me. It’s got diddly-squat to do with anything good in myself.
I’m not better than others. I’m worse because I know God loves me, yet I’m a nincompoop.
If God had a ‘bang head here’ sign …
Anyway, it constantly boggles my mind that anybody would be deliberately mean and snobbish.
I don’t understand that thinking at all.
God bless.
This may not be what anyone’s looking for but I’ve not been able to think the same way since hearing the quote “every man’s conscience is vile and depraved – you can not depend on it to be your guide when it’s you who must keep it satisfied” . I don’t understand anything when it comes to organized religions. From “dressing up” to go to Church or building churches with the “finest” materials, it all seems ridiculous. Even the Bible talks about Heaven’s “streets being paved with gold”. People seem to be projecting what’s valued on Earth onto God, when Jesus had quite a lot to say about riches making it harder to “get in” to Heaven, and giving all possessions away. He also dressed in rags and went barefoot. Christians like to say that dressing up for Church is a sign of respect, but God, in my understanding, isn’t looking at our clothes, but at our souls. What if the best clothes a poor man has aren’t the best there is? if he’s clean and his clothes are clean, even if torn and old, churchgoers will judge him, be offended. There’s too much emphasis on what’s visible, too little on what can’t be seen. Organized religions put too much emphasis on tangible things that have nothing to do with a God of Spirit. They’re also like cliques, everybody so concerned with what their fellow parishioners think. Then there are the clergy with their costumes, like uniforms. it becomes all about conformity, and people are deceived by priestly collars and the like, thinking they must be good, when we all know too many clergy are just sick predators. Then there’s the Pro-life movement that is only pro-human-baby-life. They put all this energy into being morally outraged over a pregnancy termination but aren’t protesting against killing people AFTER they’re born, i.e., Wars. They aren’t protesting against things that kill the planet God made, or its other life forms, and don’t seem to care that we’re overpopulated and don’t have enough resources for life that’s already here. It seems to me there’s too many Christians who take “spreading the Word” to mean speaking for God Himself. Everything is taken out of context. “Be fruitful and multiply” was a directive given when there were only (supposedly) 2 people in the world, not over 8 billion. Not only that, but they’re forcing new life to be born into a world that these kids are going to wind up victims of, where the resources are used up, and many are going to be victims of adult pedophiles in the Church because IT hasn’t been cleaned up. Religious thinking discourages thinking itself, when God gave us brains to think with. Generations before my parents were filled with guilt over their sexual feelings, when it was God Who made us to have them. In fact, He made them so strong there was really no need to tell anyone to “be fruitful and multipy” – they couldn’t have not done so. I wish I could take comfort from the idea there’s a God, but my brain just won’t let me, not when the story of Jesus wasn’t the first tale of a savior born of a virgin who did miracles and was crucified and came back to life. There are many stories of all the same things dating before Jesus was born. I think people are simply afraid of death because we don’t really know what happens after that, and that we have a need for a belief in something that comforts us. But the way people create God in their own image, as opposed to the other way around, has been one of the most harmful ideas ever invested in. There’s so much suffering being justified by organized religions and its thinking. People take what they want to from the Bible and leave the rest. I wish I could be comforted by this idea of God, but, unfortunately, I have thoughts and questions. I can’t be satisfied with wishful thinking and I don’t like what’s been done in the name of God and religion. I understand people’s need for it but I don’t like how they come to conclusions and stop there, or how they think it gives them the right to tell anyone who doesn’t agree with them that they’re wrong and will burn in hell for all eternity. I don’t like how they blame one woman for all the evil in the world, when her partner did just the same thing – believed something he was told. Thinking about just that one story, I can’t help thinking that believing a talking snake is less punishable than believing a talking human. But, of course, men wrote these stories and had a reason for blaming a woman: they wouldn’t have to be responsible for their own weaknesses, nor for their desires for females. Think about those countries that force women to cover their bodies from head to toe – it’s their own lust they don’t want to be responsible for, among other reasons, like concluding they should be in charge of everything because they’re physically stronger. They miss the whole point of their having greater strength, physically, if there is one. Men still rule the world, men want war, make war, and the world suffers mostly because of men. Certain kinds of men. Even Jesus had to be God’s son, not his daughter. None of it makes much sense, if any. But its been proven that the less something makes sense – religious-wise – the more readily it’s believed. If there’s a Supreme Anything at all it’s nothing like we’ve been led to believe. Tho Jesus was a good man, and very wise, most Christians in organized religions aren’t living and doing what He said to. There’s more evil going on in the name of Jesus than any I can think of. Same with some other Gods. I guess I really don’t have one clear point to make, and I doubt my long comments will even get posted. I just couldn’t help responding, because everything I read seems stuck in the same old backwards thinking. I need a new definition of God, and if you think I’m happy with not being able to believe in the God these people are talking about, you’re very much mistaken. I’d love it if I could believe in something I can’t explain, but I don’t like the idea of a God Who expects so much without making things obvious to everyone so there’s not all this disagreement about Who He is and what’s expected of us. And then there’s those expectations that are based on stories that don’t make sense, while He gives me a brain to see what doesn’t make sense, too, but if I can’t honestly lie to myself, I’m going to burn eternally in some Hell? What kind of Love is that? The God men have written about seems like a projection of their own desires – a King on a Throne who’s never questioned, a God of jealousy, when Jesus said Love is NOT jealous. And even Jesus expecting me to believe in things that can’t be proved or seen. It’s one thing if I’d been around to witness his miracles, it’s another to give the Apostles the power to do miracles but somehow they weren’t allowed to pass that power on? And then say, if I don’t believe, I’m condemned? What if I couldn’t believe, honestly? He’d know that, wouldn’t He? All the church-going in the world wouldn’t hide my doubt from either Jesus or God, nothing would. I think it’s arrogant for people to say they “just know”, when it’s a lot more humble to say, “I just don’t know”. And if what’s important is being truthful, kind, generous, humble, and you be those, but you don’t believe in the things Jesus said you had to believe, because you just can’t, there’s something wrong with that. All the other religions who don’t have Jesus as their central Deity, but are doing good in their heart and actions, they’re doomed to Hell because they didn’t follow Jesus? Then His message DOES become “it doesn’t matter what you think or do, so long as you get baptized in my Name and “confess” ME as your Savior” ( that’s another one I don’t get: “confessing” he’s my Savior. Confess means to admit, as if I knew it beforehand. Weird. Or to admit some guilt – even weirder). But it’s no wonder people who take Him as their Savior think they can do whatever they want. And this Conscience stuff (where I came in), can’t be counted on, when each person determines what satisfies it, as in the quote. If God is real at all, He’s much more unconditionally loving and forgiving, and much more understanding, than any religion teaches. How can Heaven be made out of things that we value on earth, when it’s supposed to be where your soul goes? And raising our bodies at the end? What’s our bodies got to do with our souls? If Heaven is anything it’s nothing like we’re expecting, not by a long shot. And, I personally think I’d miss the beauty of Earth, where it hasn’t been spoiled by human activity, that is. When I’m out in nature, far from civilization, that the only place I feel close to God. We aren’t taking good care of this place, and I think that hurts God, to see how we’ve killed over it, poisoned it, sold it, and claimed it and what it produces for only those who have the might and money to claim it as their own, when it belongs to all.
So, as far as what Christians are doing that aren’t Christ-like, I think it’s almost everything. Religions just separate people, and do more harm than good. I think Jesus must be appalled by how misconstrued everyone has interpreted His message. And I was raised Catholic- the most intolerant, SMUG, wealthy church of all, whose moral crimes on children boggle the mind when they’re screaming prolife and insisting on bringing more children into their vicinity to be victimized by their sick, unpunished clergy. What are they doing, thinking the Pope is infallible, living in a palace? It’s insane! No less insane is the Mormon Church – they’ve got a lot of money in common. Money, the thing Jesus preached against having too much of. Dresscodes, hypocrisy, sexual predators – there’s too many of the wrong things being touted as right; Christianity has become synonymous with all the things Jesus preached against, and is the perfect hiding place for wolves in sheep’s clothing. I’m just as lost as anyone; I just can’t pretend I don’t think what I think, or take comfort in something so nebulous. I wish I could, believe me. I’m just as afraid of death as anyone else who can’t believe with all their heart that there’s a Supreme Being watching over me. I can’t believe in anything that would allow people to get away with the mass murdering of Jewish people during the Holocaust. And I can’t ever help wondering what their experience with praying for help from God must’ve been like during that time. If anyone suggests it’s because they didn’t believe in Jesus, I just can’t understand that at all. God should be bigger than that. He should be so big and so good, and if love is unconditional, like Jesus said it was, why is he making belief in himself a condition for God’s love? No, sense should make sense. Otherwise, what’s the use in giving us a brain? Why should we be taught to fear punishment from God? I can’t understand Jesus saying “Love is unconditional – but if you don’t believe I’m really God, you’re screwed”. I envy anyone who can find peace with Jesus, and/or God, but it shouldn’t be license to get away with killing anyone who believes in God, but not Jesus, or believes in No God, but does good, is good. All religions do is separate groups of people from other groups of people. No one can agree on everything and where the disagreement becomes reason for doing anything a Good God wouldn’t condone, it’s time to rethink the whole thing.
Reply to A. Burrell: It’s uncanny how your comment is exactly how I think and feel too – so much so I feel that I could have written it myself. All the thoughts and feelings and questions and doubts that you express, I have had every one of them too, and like I said, I feel like I could have written your comment myself. I have struggled with doubt in the existence of God myself because of the contradiction between what is supposed to be the word of God and how people who call themselves Christian or other religions behave towards humanity and this earth. American Christianity is so far removed these days from the teachings of God and Jesus that I am not surprised it leads people to become non-believers. I would just say don’t give up on believing in God because of what others are doing and saying – God isn’t just an idea. Don’t let anyone tell you that you are wrong in what you believe or in having all the questions you have. Your journey is your own, between you and God, and if God gave you a questioning mind you were meant to be a thinker and searching for answers. Just don’t count on getting answers from anyone who is afraid of the questions. I believe that if you pray and talk with God, wherever you feel close to God (eg. in your home, in Nature, in a quiet chapel…) your heart will receive the answers from God that are meant for you. God is everywhere and we are all from God. Peace and love be with you. Good will to all.
“We must please God rather than men”. Yes. Very important. It shows that they are really only concerned about themselves.They want to make sure that they get into heaven, they think. But it only shows that they do not care about other people. It also shows that they are actually being controlled and therefore are not thinking about what they are doing.
Christian is now a trigger for me bc it’s bs. They lie chest and steal… best so called Christian’s stole from me and they know it
My husband abandoned me, leaving me with no way to repay all the loans and pawned items he’d made to support his drug addiction. His long time Christian friends, who I had thought were my friends as well completely turned their backs on me without an explanation why when I asked. They refuse to answer the phone when I call or respond to my messages. However, they couldn’t wait to let my husband read the message I’d written to inquire if he was ok. I wrote them one last message telling them I was deeply hurt and disappointed in their nonresponse and reminding them of Job 6:14. i also said I wouldn’t bother them again. Was I wrong in calling out their ubChristisn-like behavior?
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi
It really is unfortunate that Christians are such poor advertisements for Christianity. I’ve had it with their anti semitic attitudes and behavior toward Jews. I’d much rather worship with Jews who believe that everyone who has a good heart is loved and accepted by God. When I see a Christian business, I make sure to pick another one. Live by the 10 Commandments and forget the rest of the religious propaganda and you will have a good life.
1John :4-10; 2Timothy 3:1-5;Matthew 7:15-20
The most hurtful spiritual abuse that a pastor or church leader can do is to mislabel a victim as a narcissist and place ‘church discipline ‘ on the victim. The pain and isolation is so terrible and the lack of understanding so deep that the true victim is broken and the isolated. Then the abuser is given all the power to distroy the family and turn the children away from the victim. The worst part of this is that the pastor controls the outcome by threatening an control ing the victim .
in Biblical times Christians were persecuted at the hands of heathens and idol worshipers. That is happening now. All Followers of God and our savior should be mad that a few devils decides influence those who are weak in mind.
I have often wondered whether as Christians we cannot be ourselves.
We have to act in a particular way and perhaps that goes against our nature, and causes frustration and stress.
Or maybe it’s Western Christianity.
I was poorly treated by Christians in my home country, and was relieved to have left them and my country behind.
I know that I was verbally mistreated shortly before I was meant to go visit Christians on the mission field.
They would say really mean things.
I didn’t end up going – mistakes with one way ticket, visas – which has never happened – so I was hindered and I didn’t end up going.
A couple of other Christians called me and said that it was very fortunate that
I didn’t go because of the way previous missionaries had been treated – ugly Christianity.
I was so relieved !! The Lord really took care of me.
I am grateful to be attending a home church where we love each other, pray for each other and others.
The Lord knows I have been yearning for a loving home church. So He has blessed me with the desires of my heart. Alleluiah!!
Unfortunately, MANY people say they’re Christians who are not. They’ll hear Jesus say some day, “I never knew you.” (Matt. 7:21-23) True Christians have been changed from the inside out, and the Bible says they are known for their love. It’s not unloving to believe in a literal translation of the Bible and to not accept certain lifestyles, but it’s NEVER loving to be mean.
I say this as respectfully as I can, you people apparently have not met too many people of other religious faiths. I’m not being sensitive, either. I reject the whole ‘these people are worse than those people’ assertion, unless you have spent significant time and study with Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, animists, and pagans. Even the title of this article screams middle school in its lack of scientific analysis and to make unfounded conclusions.
I agree… I’ve been living with a Christian and passive aggressive mood swings are regular. Be little me and point out a crumb of dirt on the floor. I just vacuumed and swept… of course I didn’t see it so bossing and rude seems be too be normal. loving unconditional is not the way of some.
I do notice left alone the person has guilt for or just plan out don’t realize Jesus would complain about a crumb of dirt.
I do see if your not in the christian gang then your a outsider..?
Dressing up on Sunday and eating out after for friendship too me say a person needs people… I need only God and me to be peaceful.
God?… I don’t think would want humans to actas if there above any other but love all no matter what.
just the same I appreciate the place to live in this time but sure is harder walking on egg shells.
It is a shame that I find this article bit reversed, and focused on groupings rather than individuals. This really has nothing to do with Christians. Or Muslims. Hindus, etc. This has to do with people.
For example, when I have been the target of ” deceptive tactics I find it hard to immediately assign any connection to their religion. Why? There are good and bad behaving people in all walks of life and throughout history. Bad behavior is a personal choice, it has no specific affiliations and therefore cannot be rationally linked to one.
So, is the Question “Why are Christians so Mean” I suggest replaced by “Why are People so Mean” (including ourselves at times!)
The other question that comes to mind, is why do people who profess a belief system not always follow it? And more sadly, why are some people so “bent” that they would profess belief in a system, an association with a system, only with the intent to exploit others.
Then again we find ourselves really speaking again about good vs evil. Which most would concur is of individual ownership and behavior. While Organizations, affiliations, churches, countries may be labeled evil or good, it is the individual(s) who must be held accountable for actions.
We should always be sure that we are not following the Fallacy that A implies B, A is false, therefore B is false”
In other words, “Joe lives in a trailer. Joe is mean and cannot be trusted. Therefore, people who live in trailers cannot be trusted.
In a word and in context to this article at least, lets hold individuals to accountability, and not make the transference of that behavior on the organizations and affiliations to which they belong.
We attended this church approximately 19 months. We filled out our visitor card but no one ever reached out to us. We enjoyed the services and choir and always tithed! My husband became I’ll with cancer and within two months passed away. Pastor was by made aware . Pastor visited us once the 35 days in hospital. My husband underwent a four hour high risk surgery and no pastor nor one member of this church reached out.Two weeks after my husband passed away this same pastor called and said he was real busy and family situation with his daughter and had no idea my husband had passed away. Not one member reached out to us !! I am so hurt and crushed!! Even during our absence from this church we still sent in our tithing. I am so bitter! My thoughts of attending a church are not of fondness!!!
I’ve heard, your supposed to forgive me no matter what. they want to say whatever even if mean. constantly. I would rather work for non Christians at least there not foney. non Christians were more respectful than Christians. go figure
In response to a pastor quoting from Jesus’s sermon on the mount a man approached him and asked where he got all that lefty bullshit about love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek? When the pastor explained it was Jesus the man responded that Jesus didn’t apply anymore and we had to treat these people as the scum they.
Why do “born-again Christians ” feel so entitled ?
I have left three churches because of severe church hurt by the leadership in all three. Now I have no interest in ever attending church again. The first church we left, the church was becoming cultish. In fact it was a sin to go to another church. We immediately found another church and immediately got plugged in. My wife was asked to become the head of children’s ministry. It was only supposed to be part time about 15 hours a week but turned out to be 30 instead. After 14 years of being the children’s church coordinator, a couple of ladies got together and decided to complain to the pastor that my wife was bullying them to work in children’s ministry. None of it was true but the pastor bought into the gossip and blindsided my wife by firing her. He would not allow her to make it right with these gossipers and say goodbye to the children. Apparently Matthew 18 did not apply.
That was even the worse. I ended up retiring from my public school teaching job and took a position at a Christian school teaching math. My wife took a position at the elementary school and my son volunteered there. My son enjoys working with children and he was teaching Sunday school at our church. My son is like a kid magnet (especially rowdy boys. He enjoys working with them the most). But in this perverted generation where every single male who enjoys working with kids is a pedophile until proven innocent, this was no different. A couple of parents got together and decided to make false accusations to the school and the church. After many fruitless meetings with contradictory statements. At one time they said he did nothing wrong but we are removing him for his protection. Later they said we think he did something wrong. The church also said that they had no problems with him but they wanted to put him on hold. We asked if they talked to the main parent involved. My son was working with her son off campus. They did not and never did. My son wrote some emails showing where the church and school were in error using Matthew 18. If you ever want to tick off the clergy, quote scripture to them. Again Matthew 18 did not apply. I wonder if churches believe that church discipline as outlined in Matthew 18 is part of the apocryphal. And then I resigned my position and they went into overdrive with their vengeance. I don’t even want to talk about that. For those reasons I have said, “see ya” to church.
I agree fully of what you wrote. As Christians we are supposed to be the light in this world.
As Christians, we are not sinless but we sin less each day as the Spirit of Christ transforms us into His image. To Christ be all the glory!
10 stars, I really think n agree all this is truth. Thank a lot, for this posting it is so helpful to me.
God bless
Patriarchal, authoritarian, and mean.
Churches are judgemental, hateful, and if you’re poor and can’t afford to pay you’re shamed for it when I was a child our pentecostal church had my dad paying offerings by getting my dad to go buy food for them with back then food stamps now snap benefits and when we took the food to them their freezer’s were already filled with food and we those months many a nite went to bed hungry the way it was we only could afford one meal a day dad was disabled. this is why I don’t go to church also church teaches hell and the devil not God, Jesus and the holy Spirit and talk constantly about themselves very rarely teaching but a verse. they chase people away from God. and the church because they twist Gods truth I know a lot of verses in bible that proves my point if you got a life time of time I could spend days on end stating many things in the KJV. of the Bible that pokes many holes in all church doctrines. the Catholic don’t go souly by the bible and they’re supposed to be the so Called church that Jesus set up with Peter whom I think is very same peter that denied Jesus 3 times church won’t even answer that question. I could go on and on but u get my draft I also have many more experience with church that I have not mentioned that all churches say they’re the one and only church also they are the churches of separation, desegregation, many denominations and religions which all branches off the Catholic church out of roam which are very ones who crusified our lord and savior Jesus Christ. So u tell me why in bible it’s says in the end times there would be a falling away from the church and that the church will be looked at first.
I have alot of troubles with religion. Not only did I wholeheartedly try to follow it as a young child (my parents seemed so taken with it). It seemed like a truly beautiful thing. A way to be kind yet humble, pious not snobby. I went to the same church every sunday with my family, praying and praying, making a little den, trying to read the storybook bible. Yet being dropped off at the kid colouring sessions never appealed to me. I was rather.. ambitious for a kid.
This stopped as I grew. My parents made bad choices (in terms of business), my mum becomes more and more christian and while I was not aware, this was due to a cancer. Rather than use religion to confront some mistakes she made, she turns furious, bitter and wanting to warn me against all the pains of the world.
Not only that, but after moving schools alot, I began talking to people of all backrounds. And then engaging with these people (namely the gays) and found something like belonging there. I hung out with them more and more, impressed with their boldness, their courage to stand up for what was right.
Mum’s gone now. It was only a short space of time, but my brain gets muddled thinking about it. I am truly trying to stay neutral, but what if neutrality is freedom for all? The only issue is how to get there.
I am going back to the same church now. My dad’s trying to cope. I have been thoroughly disillusioned and I genuinly want to understand their reasoning and point it out to them. But even the thought of it makes me tremble and I don’t know what to do. I’m scared that I will be shunned (not by the church, but by the family. The only parent I have left.)
Yet, there are wonderful people in this church. A woman who used to teach me was talking to me. I find out she disapproves of what the sermons say, especially because her daughter is bisexual. I know people who go to cambridge, extremely intelligent and thoughtful individuals who have helped offer insight to what God means for me. While I may not be able to confront this trauma just yet, all I know is that my God is justice, morality and understanding without judgement. What a christian God SHOULD be. Not a puppet for some twats to convey biases they’ve never confronted.
This is the Christianity that’s so beautiful. I miss it alot. I hold a strange fascination with religion in general now, especially Christianity. Like a snake that I’m too scared to get near, for it might poison me. But Dostoevsky’s writing of the character Sonia from Crime and Punishment truly helps guide me. Sonia is a prostitute. Forced into her horrible situation due to circumstances competely out of her control. Yet she is the most pure character in the book, ironically. An unconventional Virgin Mary. She helps guide Raskolnikov to redemption.
I don’t know what I’m trying to get at here. Maybe someone will come upon this and read what I’m saying, maybe it will be buried. But if anyone does relate to my situation, stay hopeful, stay curious, stay critical. It’s difficult, but truly worth it.
I have been a part of organized religion all of my life – I did take a break when I was in my teens & we moved from a small town in Mississippi to a large city in Alabama. It was a complete shock to my system. It was my introduction to wolves in sheep’s clothing filling the pews on Sundays. The church was their hunting grounds for more victims. It was unthinkable to me that people would take communion and refer to themselves as Christians while simultaneously robbing true loving naive Christians. What was worse, was discovering that the leadership was aware of the behavior & yet did not join the Christians being hurt & sinned against in confronting the non-practicing Christian liars, thieves, etc. If Matthew 18 is to be taken literally, then we should support our practicing Christians rather than allowing the Christian criminals to continue their behaviors in secret and exposing other vulnerable Christians to them within God’s house. I have seen far too many people (young / new Christians) walk away from Jesus to other religions, cults, or become agnostic because they were so devastated by the actions of well seasoned, life long church goers.
The word Christian, in and of itself, often invokes a negative connotation in the minds of the masses because it has been exploited for decades, especially in the US. I generally answer any questions about my faith with “I am a follower of Jesus.” I really do not care to be clumped in with today’s ‘business as usual’ Christians.
Addendum: Witnessing is most effective when done through attraction rather than promotion. Are we living a life that others would be attracted to? Are the fruits of the spirit evident in our lives? People notice when anyone lives with love, integrity, joy, peace, contentment, generosity, kindness, etc. on a daily basis. Those people are attractive to everyone as being gentle, dependable, responsible, and full of love for their fellowman. It provides the perfect opportunity for witnessing when they are asked or comments are made like, “I don’t know how you do it. You are always happy “ I am a Jesus follower & we start everyday together, communicate throughout the day, and end each day together with gratitude & thankfulness.
Can you imagine anyone desiring to have a life of chaos, secrets, hiding, cheating, relationship-less as in no long term friendships, daily anger & blaming, etc? So those professing Christianity & living everyday in opposition to the teachings of Jesus, are not only not being a witness for Christ but become the stumbling block for others looking for something/someone to believe in. It is perfectly fine to be a miserable person & opt for the promises of Lucifer – it was God himself that endowed humans with free will. It would just be preferable if they did not associate their behavior with Christianity. I don’t know anyone searching for something to believe in that would choose the faith of the latter.
Christians aren’t supposed to tell the World to stop sinning – they’re dead in their trespasses and sins – right? So, how can they stop being enslaved through a force of will for no discernible reason? If they had a reason to stop sinning beyond attained more comfort in their lives (which is a reason that some have found out, and they’ve benefited by resisting *certain* sins that they find hurt them, like drunkenness for a famous instance), if they did realize that sin in general is harmful, they might believe 4 things and do 1 thing to be saved! We’re supposed to tell each other our own faults and to also be firm in telling each other their own faults but with a firmness that starts out one on one, increases to no more than three on one, and then in front of the whole church – but even then not as an enemy, because we want our sibling in Christ to repent and be welcomed back after we shun them. That’s all biblical. That’s proper care and concern. If we all followed that, there’d be a whole different mechanic at work, and we’d be a lot less mean. Of course, first, we’d have to get together on the dividing line between Church and World to know whom to treat in what way. But most don’t seem to realize we have to believe 4 things (1 Cor 15:1-8) and do 1 thing (Rom 10:9-13;14a ties the two together) to be saved. Until we get a firm grip on that, how can we act right?
Do these people have the Holy Spirit in them? After years and years of going to church, the Holy Spirit would teach them and convict them, so fruit would manifest in them from the guidance of God. I too am a sinner but when I sin, the Holy Spirit will get a hold of me loudly. My peace of mind leaves me! I hate that!! I am very perplexed because my daughters are like that. The Holy Spirit who is God is more important than church churchgoing. My daughter cries when she is rejected by them! She is a Christian and I see themanifestion of fruit. She is sick emotionally too! We do not go to church because of the commendation she receives from them putting themselves above her. She has depression and as a mother, I do not want that for her. We have friends we fellowship with who are kind and loving! And we pray. My daughter and I pray! When she feels really bad I cast out whatever is tormenting her regularly. No matter what I treat all my daughters kindly and with respect for the Lord’s ask, I hope The Lord heals us all. Glory to God!! Please pray for us!
Agree! Christians need to hold a mirror up.
I’ve been verbally abused by my so called Christian sister in laws. I said fuck off and did not mind it. They thought I was supposed to anything they said .
One called and said your a terrible wife. I said, I m not supposed to fix him. Also said you just want me to put up with it so you do not have to.
She shut up.
He messed up and my fault line of thinking.
Women create men.
Wow! What happened to his mother?
He had no parenting .
I think Christian’s sound mentally ill.
Never mind their physical abuse of children.
Spoil the rod spare the child : does not mean to take a switch to a child who keeps making mistakes .. I was always in fear as a small child of being spanked bare butt with a thorny rose stem by an aunt , my moms , brothers’ wife because she sent me there to live , so she could unload me and an older sibling because drinking was the issue for her .. I lived in fear every day and I mean every day because she’d spank me for getting a note that I was talking or staring out of a window in class .. I’m A.D.H.D and it doesn’t matter if they knew what it was back then .. I was meek and shy and wasn’t being mean to any other children .. Infact they were allowed to make fun of what they called my cross eyes without getting any notes given to them at the end of school .. She was cruel and also did things like peel potatoes making me wait to get spanked to make it scarier .. She didn’t spank anyone but me and I was little ..
The ROD they are referring to , is the Shepards rod used to GUIDE their flock in the right direction .. Not a rod to hit your kids with .. Your supposed to talk to them 😒
I believe an eye for an eye..is always taken out of context.
How do I talk to a lady in our church who has criticized and belittled my teenage son for a second time in a year. All he asked was how her family(specifically her son) was doing in his new public school he just started attending this year as a freshman. Before this he had attended a private Christian school since kindergarten. He also asked how the church renovations were going since we haven’t been attending regularly like before due to personal reasons. And now we only go one service per month. She was offended because my son was a little childish in confronting her about “ignoring” his message according to him he told her didn’t appreciate being left on “read” . I understand he was out of line and I dealt with him about that. But she called him insecure and said she didn’t even feel obligated to respond. So I get it. But the first time she scolded him she said that a good Christian boy talks to his mama first before telling everyone else his childish problems telling some of his peers that he has had a bad childhood. Which was “here say” because he told me he never said that to anyone. I’m offended too for the fact that she’s a Sun school teacher and her son is autistic as my teen here in question. I thought she was more compassionate about our special boys. They are both high functioning. But the fact that she was mad and trying to correct him in front of me last time is now making matters worse this 2nd time around. Please help me with your good advice. I just don’t want to lose my testimony and be a bad example for our boys and our church and more importantly give the Lord Jesus Christ a bad mark here. I’m just a sinner saved by His grace & mercy. But the flesh gets in the way sometimes. Thx in advance praying for us all.
People of the world don’t have the guts to stand up for what the bible say’s,and so they want to bring every body down to thier level,by putting other people down by degrading them. Wouldly people don’t realize that the air that they breath,even tho you can’t see it,you know it’s there because they are still breathing in the air,well GOD is the same way,just because you can’t see him,does not mean that he is not right there beside you,waiting for you to realize that he is a spirit,and he can see and hear every thing you say and do.You can’t see the air that is in your tires,but because of the tire not being flat,you know the air in in your tire,well JESUS is a spirit that you can’t see,but he knows you,and he see’s every thing you do, and every body on this earth will take thier last breath,and then they will see JESUS,and they will be judged by him, and every thing you have done and said on this earth,will determine where you spend eternity! I have seen men die,in viet nam, and some died kicking and screeming,while others died at peace.
I agree with your statements..not all Christian’s are true to staying on track in following the purpose of God’s will and what he had in store for humanity. Niether are other religions. No one is perfect in this world.
This is why God send Jesus to show us the way. For example the rules are written on the ten commandments. Follow those rules and you will find peace within is what we all want.
I think that because Satan plays a huge part in our own demise and tries to abuse us mentally and trick us that all people are confused not knowing why people act so cold and distance unfriendly. See it for what it is it is written in the Bible. Your own family members will go against you. We must not allow Satan to confuse the world we are all one.
It’s all a very evil game that can cost you your life. Man kind is being good and bad. Not all people are bad, but all people who believe in God and Jesus will be tormented. Jesus told us that. It’s how you deal with it and how much faith you Carry in your heart.
We are in bondages still inslaves by society. Pray stay strong and rest. Read your Bible love one another and do not Coral.
How can I get a copy of the 10 reasons Christians are so mean
As someone who grew up with not so nice Christian parents, I’m glad I didn’t end up blinded by lies of thinking that they’re right and everyone else is wrong. In my opinion, it does not matter if you’re not a Christian or believe in God, what matters is how you act towards others and talk to everyone in the world. Anyone that’s having a bad day today, I hope you someone in your life to make you feel safe and happy. 🙂
how can you say christians are chosen when the Bible clearly says Jews are chosen and you don’t have to be born Jewish you can convert and will be as much jew as anyone else.maybe the reason christians are bad people and they all are is because they chose to listen to pleasant sounds from regular men instead of the words of prophets as prophesized by the prophet Isaiah . gospels and epistles are not written by prophets just regular men whom have claimed no divine intervention instead they spoke with their own sound mind. on John of Patmos is a prophet in the new testament and if you read his book “revelations of Jesus Christ”(which means reveal the truth) you will see he’s not saying christ is the real messiah he’s the beast and false prophet which undeniably he was a false prophet by definition. convert to Judaism child the old testament is in every religion and Jews are Gods people.
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I don’t know about some of the things you are saying but I point out I am a sinner
And I do not act self righteous or indignant. But as a Christian if I see some one I know who claims ro be a fellow Christian acting or saying something unchrist which goes the opposite of what a christian should be doing I will in a gentle christ like way tell them it is wrong. And I am not saying this because I think I am entitled or self righteous or better then that person only to help that verse you used judge not least yea be judged has been used by many who do not want to hear the truth so they mis quote the real meaning of the Bible verse
I have been a Christian for 30 years. All these years, I have put up with more jealousy from believers then anyone else in the world. It is so upsetting. Everyone wants to own you and if you try and pull away, they get all upset and angry. The American church should spend more time focusing on these end times and the Lord’s coming and less time on how important they are in the church. I am really tired of the American christian church.
I haven’t thought of another excuse Christians use bit I do want to add to the excuse Christians use “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth”. Even though it’s nother way of saying what “what comes around goes around”, but there are two ways to interpret that way of saying it. One is the excuse of stooping to the level of the first jerk but it is just as bad to be a jerk in return because a jerk is a jerk weather it’s action or reaction the behavior is still wrong. It’s the behavior itself, not the timing of the behavior that makes us a jerk. Also don’t we teach our kids as a preparation for school to always treat people with the same RESPECT you WANT them to treat you with and NOT to treat others with the same DISRESPECT they ALREADY treated you with? “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” as well as “what comes around goes around” if looking at it the right way can also be interpreted as “be the positive change you want to see in the world. If you want your enemies to see God’s light you have to set an example of how God would want you to make that look like. In other words lead by being a positive example of a more productive way to act as a faithful God loving human being. If you lead by stooping to the same level of behavior as your enemy you just became the enemy. It’s really a no Brainer if you really think of the way God’s way would be. You can’t beat hate with hate it just makes double the hate. You can only beat hate by showing love, compassion and true respect not street thug level of respect. There is a huge difference. Decent humans earn respect while street thugs force respect by retaliating and beinga jerk just because your enemy did is retaliation just like a street thug does and calls it respect and last I checked the Bible says nothing about God being a street thug so you have no business acting like one ether. By retaliation to force and demand respect is not God’s way. And if a Christian can’t tell the difference between God’s interpretation and man’s interpretation then does that mean your a true Christian? If you claim Christian then behave like your Bible is your baby and God is the one you will be answering t on judgement day and not your enemy you are answering to. How you react is just as important as how you act. Your jerk isn’t the one doing your evaluation on judgement day. God is. So be te positive change you want to see if you truly love God. He just wants us to be responsible respectable adults. Isn’t that what we want for our own children? That’s why we raise our children with rules and that’s why God raises us with rules. To grow up to be the best versions of ourselves we can possibly be. He’s is our maker, our heavenly father, a dad’s child who wants his child to grow up the right way. Just like we don’t use God’s name in vain nether should God’s words he said to us should be. It’s a no brainer guys. Not rocket science. I just felt the need to put that all out there that God’s way is not really all that complicated. I’m no exception to the rule ether. I’m not saying I don’t screw up but that doesn’t mean I should withhold insight that might help someone see multiple perspectives to help reduce the twisted ways people look at the obvious.
Just because you have been baptized doesn’t mean you are chosen but you are called. You must be born of the Spirit to be born again. With the burning in the breast you are brought to death (slain in the Spirit) and when the Spirit fills you, you are born again.
Thank you so much. I found this very helpful. I too have been guilty at times of most of the above. My aim is not to misrepresent Him as the world watches us and I would hate for a non Christian to be turned away from Him and potential salvation over something I said or did. If I hurt someone, Christian or non Christian, I’d feel convicted and would want to make it right. Humility is the key I believe. I used to be a non Christian once too and I understand how daunting it can be to be confronted by my own sin and depravity. Excellent article. Thank you again!
It is the smugness of fundamentalist Christian’s that really gets my goat! They want it all ways : when they are suffering they are paying for my sins, and when I suffer they say it is my comeuppance. What sanctimonious claptrap! As if they KNOW the «mysterious » ways of god… which is in itself a sin, no?
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Another attitude common among Christians is, “it’s ok she/he will understand she/he is a Christian…”.
I remember the incident that I waited for almost 2 hours to meet a newly ordained pastor and his wife in our meeting place outside a fastfood. I stayed waiting, thinking it could be something really important. Only to know that they were late because they forgot the time, they enjoyed eating and chatting on their fellowship with other Christians. When we met no sorry or remorse on their part, their reason is that they know I am a “matured” Christian and I will understand; and because I am very much interested to meet them to discuss about a bible study ministry is a good reason to wait.
But when the time I was late for about 15 minutes, they reproached me and asking why I was late. I should “understand” that he is a pastor, very busy… And yet, I was very sorry for being late and it just happened that my son was very sick , besides, they gave me a short notice to meet them. I was trying to call them to inform them I would be a little late but they forgot to bring their phones.
That was the last time I meet with them and totally abandoned having them on our bible study.
What Christian values will we get from them, their attitudes never reflect any of Jesus Christ’s attitude.
And every Christian should understand that understanding is always two-way
and repent. When our sin is pointed out to us, we should apologize, thank them for helping us see our sin, try and make it right, if we hurt someone (which we DID, if we’re being mean), express our regret, repent of our sin to God & before those that are pointing it out to us (“Confess your sins to one another…”). Easy for me to write here. Much harder in practice, I suspect. But my own personal experience of admitting I am wrong to other people when I know I am (& I ALWAYS know when I am; it’s just how long will I be prideful and not admit this to another person & try to make AMENDS, try to make things right….), to tell them I was wrong & to humble myself has proven to be one of the most invaluable lessons I was ever taught & then put it into practice and the most free-ing feeling, when I’ve done it! I keep in mind, too, that, while free-ing to ME to humble myself & admit my wrongs to others, I have still stepped on the toes of another & probably hurt them also, in some way(s), so I must be sincere & genuine in my confessing my sins & wrongs & failings to others, mindful that actions and words are hard to forget when someone has been hurt by them, by me.
as imperfect people we make mistakes too, and are often frustrated by the lack of love and selflessness in the world. Also the lack of common decency. As a true believer in Christ you tend to find good deeds met with whips on the back, and spit in the face, and the blame put on Christ and you. That’s generally what True followers of Christ are met with.
It’s also frustrating constantly serving other people, remaining humble, doing your best, minding your own, and then getting punched in the gut for doing what’s right. You can’t afford the gun to blow your brains out, and don’t own a permit. People don’t care. And then you go online, or even in the Bible for comfort, and the answer you get is “one day”. On earth it’s maybe one day, but according to the Bible it is “one day.”
I have just read this post about mean professing Christians. I am puzzled as to who is being described.
My small group has studied some issues that may apply re:error, false doctrines etc. And as a genuine Bible believer of a number of years, I have had to discern error in a couple of churches I visited when off at college.
So my questions is “What specific doctrinal errors are indicated; and by whose teaching?” Some portions of the NT indicate that gently discussing these issues can help.
i am very relieved to find someone else i consider a true follower of god because lets be honest en masse christians do not follow god they follow their individual perceptions leading to misguided rituals and beliefs,behavior ,etc this is exactly what god the true creator of not just this universe but all of them is trying to get us to turn away from.I truly believe that humans have one belief right about god not just christians but anybody that believes in a single catalyst creator is that we are meant to grow and learn from mistakes we are not meant to accept what we are as is we have been given this fate for a reason i dont think any humans know but i firmly believe we are capable of learning the reasoning for this.its definitely not the adam eve story because think about it of course they would say its the womans fault think of the conditions that existed when the bible was written.it was not a time woman were allowed to even publish literature and is when that type of thing even was invented.before the bible they really didnt have to “publish” anything.
I reluctantly call myself a christian as i have a horror of being connected to the church.
In my family we have 3 church people who are the most unforgiving and mean spirited people i know, they have proved they’re pious so can be as they want.
My neighbour who goes to church 1 sometimes twice a week voted against landlords being legally required to only rent habitable homes.
i would love to have the help and friendship of a church that reguarded this highly but have not found ONE and i have tried many times, ( surely there must be some christians in the christian church?!)
I think the bonus point is a little off base, no you shouldn’t be mean or rude to other people & claim to please God while pissing other people off but sometimes just being a Christian pisses people off without you being rude or mean
All points, very well made. Our “new” Pastor (in his 2nd year, anyway) presses this a lot. He likes to quote the Barna polls, showing that the unchurched complain that Christians are “judgemental”. Needless to say, this is deemed ‘bad’.. (Which, in context, it may often be.)
But, flip side… our Gospel cannot be understood without the warning of the severe judgement that is coming. Think back to before you came to Christ. Did YOU want to hear of God’s judgement against all sin?
I figured as much. Neither did I! So when the World says that we are “judgemental”, and we start wringing our collective hands over our own sins, self-righteousness, unkindness or excessive legalism, let us not forget how things stand.
JESUS HIMSELF warned of Judgement to come. He spoke more of Hell, and the reality of it, than anyone else in the Bible.
And the sinful World blamed, accused and condemned Him.
You will never find a more mild-mannered, polite and inoffensive man than James Dobson, founder of Focus On The Family. But both Dobson and Focus are now on the Southern Poverty Law Center’s official list of Hate Groups. Right along with the Neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.
Why? Because they uphold biblical marriage. They refuse to endorse same-sex and transsexuals relationships.
It is here, folks. You will be told you are judgemental and unkind. That you are a Hater and a Bigot and a Phobic. You will be denounced and condemned. And all you need do is disagree with the World’s agenda. Tell them what the Bible teaches about sin and judgement. Warn them to “flee the wrath to come” by coming to Christ.
You do that, and they will denounce you as being “judgemental”. No matter how “nice and polite” you are.
“Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” Is a crafty little excuse I’ve heard and seen used. But I think it is useful to keep the apostles words within their context on that one. Remember Christ afforded 12 thrones of Judgement specifically to the 12 apostles. And, in Revelation there is noted 24 (double the number Christ foretold) upon which 24 elders (of Israel) sit. Likely the the other twelve occupied by prophets of Israel who were telling us about God’s judgements in the first place (old testament), since that is the business they are set up on to begin with in their calling. Further more, these 24 elders are not judging the tribes by personal opinions and whims, but by the things written in the books. They judge by the book. Thus we have every reason to expect fair and righteous judgement, since they are in this line of work by the appointment of God and by His knowledge of what is in the heart and mind of each citizen and subject of the Kingdom. Thus, the obvious last point: The judgement is the Lord’s; and God is judge himself. When the apostle says: what do you have to judge those outside? Do you not judge those within? But those outside God judges” He is speaking expressly to those who would by 1382 AD. be calling them selves by a newly invented word:”churche” . That’s right, the word “church” was never in the original scripture, bible translators made it up in 1382 AD and inserted it into the “scripture” via English Bibles. This is a very important issue, though I won’t get into that because it is not responding to the query of this post. Other scriptures in the bible that Christians would be well enough to keeping in mind that would put their judgemental or tyrannical sinasaurus behavior to rest once and for all come from Jesus in the Gospels and those who speak rightly of him there. He said all authority is given to him on earth and heaven. For judgement he came into the world. His words that he has spoken (not that he will speak) shall judge man on the last day. Even his enemies or opponents noted that he accepted no man’s person. And there is that also noted why he entrusted himself not unto the Jews when he was come into that certain city “for he had no need of man to testify of man, for he knew what was in every man.” Keep sound wisdom and instruction friends in Christ. The secrets of mens hearts will be judged at the *revelation of the *righteous *judgement *of *God. If men knew it (the righteous judgement of God) then it would be a revelation but a confirmation.
As long as you believe there is a magic man in the sky that speaks to you, directs your life, and forgives you when you sin, you can justify anything. Which is what humans have been doing for millennia. Today’s angry and bitter Christians are on the same sound theological footing as those in the Crusades and Inquisition. God is speaking to them and guiding their actions. If you don’t think so, just ask them.
All of my life I’ve been put off by christians. It seems to be a green light to a lot of hate, slavery, oppression of women, unimaginative clothing, fear based cooperation, worshipping other peoples opinions over god, an excuse to prey on the vulnerable, cover up sexual abuse, manipulate ppl about status, sexually abuse the youth, control other people so that they are as boring as they are, being pushy, thinking they are better than thou. It’s as if they need rules to follow to the road of perfection.
I appreciated the article here. I would add that there is a difference between “Christians” and “People who acknowledge the existence of Jesus.”
A believer is one who changes there life everyday, not just Sunday. A Christian is moved by the spirit of holiness to do things that are reflective of their gratitude to God for being saved.
Modern day “Christians” – or rather – “People who acknowledge the existence of Jesus” who use being Christian as an excuse to condemn others are no different than the people that killed our LORD, that he warned us of, the Pharisees. They used their knowledge of the scriptures and their religious, political, and social standings to make themselves feel better, and categories those that Jesus met with – “sinners.”
The fruit of the spirit – meaning, the results in the characters of those devoted to our Lord – are love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, virtue, and faith.
How about the wolves in sheep’s clothing that attempt to blackmail peer pressure badger mock and slander their neighbors into sexual submission and then have the gull to look you in the eye and tell you it’s help, this is the way it works! No one ever has the guts to address this issue. Like the rhetoric of date rape, “You dressed that way, you know you wanted it, it’s all your fault. The world sees this as their being lied about, and leave your hypocrisy little churches too.
I gave up on churches/fellowship years ago. When I turned to Christian “friends” for help I found indifference. Told to go to therapists. More often I have found more empathy and compassion from non-Christians more often than not.
“it’s just my personality” 👎🏼
Last night I met a christian at a dinner party. I spoke with her for one hour about our different beliefs. I was left with a feeling of violation when the conversation ended. She used the above statement you mentioned, about “righteous anger”. Several times during the dinner party she gave off energy of severe judgementalism and disgust at the rest of us there. She was really hateful towards the government (which is fine if you hate the government) but also seriously argumentative towards anyone who tried to find a middle ground when it came to all of her opinions. And she openly denigrated the other religions of the people there. Everyone else was diplomatic and tried to focus the conversations around what their religion and christianity had in common, but she just kept arguing how christianity had nothing in common with any other religion and how god was the only way and that’s that. I honestly left feeling angry at her and disgusted at her hatred of other religions, people, sexualities, races, political beliefs, and more. I already try to avoid people who follow abrahamic faiths because of how dogmatic and judgemental I feel they are when I meet them, but I’m going to double my efforts from now on. I really don’t want to meet or speak to another christian as long as I live, because I haven’t met a single one who has behaved like a well-adjusted, kind human being. I think their Jesus would be ashamed of them.
The Real Person!
The Real Person!
That was a great article Bless you,you told everything with truth. Let’s all learn to help and love one another
The Real Person!
The Real Person!
That was a great article Bless you,you told everything with truth. Let’s all learn to help and love one another