Okay … after a nearly six month break, I am finally starting back up on my series about the violence of God in the Old Testament. Although, … it wasn’t really a break. I was madly reading, writing, and researching that whole time … and now I think I am ready to begin again.
Ultimately, I’m trying to solve the problem illustrated here:
(Note: These number above don’t count the flood. Some estimate this might add anywhere between 20 million to 6 billion people to that tally.)
Since there are many new readers on this blog, and since probably everyone who has been here longer than a year has forgotten the basic argument I am trying to present, I figured I would spend one post summarizing my view and inviting people to go back and read some of what I have written previously only this topic.
Eventually, of course, these posts will make it into a book, although at this time, it looks like it will more likely be books. A normal 200 page book has about 60,000 words. So far, I have written 120,000 words on this book, and I figure I am about half-way done. Sigh.
So, either I need to cut out about 75% of what I will finally end up with, or I will have to turn this one project into three or four books. Maybe I can get it down to two.
Anyway, here is a brief introduction/summary to what I am trying to show from Scripture:
A Modest Proposal about the Violence of God in the Old Testament
If Jesus truly and fully reveals God to us, and there is no violence in Jesus, then neither is there any violence in God.
At times God appears violent, not because He is violent, but because, just as Jesus on the cross took the sin of the world upon Himself, so also God in human history, took the violence of humanity upon Himself.
Why?
For the same reason Jesus went to the cross: to rescue humanity from the devastating consequences of their actions.
Just as Jesus took sin upon Himself on the cross so that He might rescue and deliver all mankind from sin, so also God took violence upon Himself in the Old Testament so that He might rescue and deliver all mankind from violence.
Such an idea might seem scandalous to most Christians today, but this idea is no more scandalous to us than the idea to the first century Jewish person of the Messiah dying on a cross.
Read More …
If this is the first post you have read on this blog about this topic, then my proposal might come as quite a shock to you. Or maybe what I have said doesn’t make any sense. Or maybe you shrugged your shoulders and said, “Yeah? That’s what I’ve always believed.”
Whatever your reaction might be, if you want to learn more, here are some posts to get you started:
How can a God who says "Love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44) be the same God who instructs His people in the Old Testament to kill their enemies?
These are the sorts of questions we discuss and (try to) answer in my online discipleship group. Members of the group can also take ALL of my online courses (Valued at over $1000) at no charge. Learn more here: Join the RedeemingGod.com Discipleship Group I can't wait to hear what you have to say, and how we can help you better understand God and learn to live like Him in this world!
Over the next two weeks, I will be publishing several more posts which attempt to unfold and explain this proposal in various ways. After that, we will dive once more into several of the violent texts of Scripture to see how the violent portrayals of God in Scripture look just like Jesus on the cross.
Hi Jeremy,
I have one qeustion for now. How about the temple cleansing that Jesus did?
Taco.
1. In John 2 – The whip from chords was used on the sheep and cattle.
2. He did not harm anything – he only turned over the tables of the money changers and drove out the sheep and cattle.
3. Read the other Gospel accounts in Matt 21, Mark 11 & Luke 19 – the lame and children would not be coming up to him and cheering if he was really angry and took his anger out on everyone in the temple.
Great question. I suppose I should define “violence” as destructive, hurtful, and murderous acts toward others. The cleansing of the temple might be “violent” but it does not appear that Jesus actually harmed anybody in the process. He made a whip, but did He hit anybody with it? The text does not say so.
I was always taught that God was not responsible for the deaths in the OT including the Flood. But I’m not so sure. Why would God tell Joshua to kill men ,women and children. I can only think that the children were not rehabitable.
Yes, this is one possible theory, one I used to hold, and which I think has lots to commend it.
I think God chastises; you’ve got to pull or peel humanity “time being” apart from God as well as sin and it’s bi-products; death and disorder. At the core He is pure and loving; any movement outside the realm of His purity and love is pushing his written word in our hearts closer to Him. The devil knows He can’t go against His word so the devil uses that to compromise His truth there on many bi-products to this conflict. One day we will see clearly and in instance be knowing.
Imagine talking to someone who attempts to justify the horrific crimes against humanity committed by Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin. What would you think of such a person? Even if they condemned such behavior today, their justification of brutal crimes committed in the past would not be excusable. You would look upon such a person with disgust and contempt and consider them incredibly immoral.
So let’s take a look at Christianity. Practically every version of Trinitarian Christianity, from fundamentalist to liberal, sees Jesus as the God of the Old Testament. To deny that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament is to deny the Trinity. If Jesus is the God of the Old Testament he is guilty of some of the most barbaric, horrific acts of infanticide and genocide known to man. Yet Christians of all stripes pray and worship this mass murderer of men, women, and little children.
Any Christian who refuses to condemn and denounce the God of the Old Testament is immoral.
I am proud of the God of the Old Testament and extol His honor. Condemn me all you like. I am not worried about your judgement, but rather the judgement of the omnipotent one that sustains every breath I take. If you ever take the time to examine the context of what was actually happening when God chose to execute judgement to a select few barbaric cultures thousands of years ago, you might see things a little differently. On the other hand if you are determined to hate the God of the OT no matter what, it is unlikely that you will escape the grasp of confirmation bias.
What “sins” ever merit genocide and infanticide?
Consider in many instances, human sacrifice, baby sacrifice, torture, barbaric treatment of prisoners. Also there is evidence that many of them may actually have been sort of a demonic/human hybrids. Fallen angelic beings, hellbent on rebellion, cohabited with women to form hybrids, and were the ancestors of many/most of these people groups, and then they often practiced these things and warred with Israel. A nation that produced supernatural signs to indicate that God had His hand on them(parting of the Red Sea, plagues of Egypt, etc.)
Then on a larger scale, consider the human condition, that every person is wicked, by nature, their natural inclination is toward evil to begin with, at least when compared to God’s standard.
This is the short version. The full treatment takes a number of books, and is beyond a message board post.
Please give book, chapter, and verse where your God justifies his wholesale, targeted, slaughter of women and children due to a people’s practice of human/baby sacrifice.
Let me save you some time: There is no passage in the Bible where God justifies his targeted slaughter of women and children due to human/baby sacrifice. None.
Let see for what reasons your God justifies the targeted slaughter of women and children:
1. The Great Flood
Justification: generic “evil”. We have no evidence that the people of Noah’s day were committing human sacrifices, yet your God drowned toddlers and infants for the sins of their parents.
2. The First Born of Egypt
Thousands of children were slaughtered in their beds due to the sin of one man—Pharaoh. Yet the Bible states that it was not the free will of Pharaoh that brought about this great slaughter. No. The slaughter of thousands of Egyptian children came about because your God deliberately violated Pharaoh’s free will by hardening his heart, time after time, after time, for the sole purpose of demonstrating how great and powerful he is.
3. The Midianites
The Israelite soldiers rounded up all the Midianite women and children after killing off all the Midianite men. Moses was furious that the soldiers had allowed the women and little children to live. He ordered all the Midianite women and all the little boys to be slaughtered…but…spared the virgin young girls.
What was the justification for this mass slaughter of women and little boys: It had nothing to do with human sacrifice.
4. The Canaanites
Entire cities full of men, women, and children were slaughtered at the edge of the sword. Why? Answer: The Israelites wanted their land.
5. The Amalekites
An entire nation of people slaughtered. Why? Because about 400 years earlier, their ANCESTORS had not allowed the Israelites to pass through their land.
Now, if our God is as powerful as you believe him to be, he has the right to do as he pleases, including committing acts of mass genocide and infanticide. But, please have the moral integrity to admit that he is an evil, psychopathic, blood-thirsty MONSTER, not a good and just God.
Gary,
I also would say it’s very important to remember that the Amalekites and Canaanites were likely descendent from the Nephilim, and the Midianites might have had ties to them as well. You tend to automatically attribute innocence to these and other people groups. I do not.
Gary,
As far as the Biblical record, sometimes God does give us some details about why He judged, other times He does not. After all, He is an omnipotent entity under no obligation to us to do/say anything. He doesn’t dance a jig for us upon request. But fortunately we do have some answers. Not all, just some. I’ll give you three verses that do in fact attribute this type of judgement to human sacrifice:
Leviticus 20:2 – 1The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2“Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.
Deuteronomy 12:29-31 – 29“When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ 31You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
2 Kings 16:3 – 3but he walked in the way of the kings of Israel. He even burned his son as an offering,a according to the despicable practices of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel.
I see a loving, just, and perfect God that probably felt compelled, due to His loving and just nature, to not let such evil go unchecked indefinitely.
Ok. I can admit when I’ve made a mistake. You are right, and I’m wrong on the Canaanites. But no such excuse can be used for the Egyptians, Midianites, and Amalekites.
And even if the Canaanites were killing their children in human sacrifices, is it morally justifiable to kill ALL the Canaanite toddlers and infants to spare some Canaanite toddlers and infants from human sacrifice?? It makes no sense morally. If the parents were so wicked, why not just kill all the adults but save the children and raise them up as followers of Yahweh? Why kill all the little children?
We would never tolerate a leader of a country today committing genocide and infanticide for the reason that the people are “evil”, so why do you let your God off the hook? Once again, if he is all powerful, he can do whatever he pleases, but only someone whose conscious has been stripped of any moral compass would refer to such a God as good and just.
To die early is a gracious act of the Lord. Don’t forget, we all have a record of crimes of which we are guilty of offending a holy God. The longer we live the more extensive the record. For a person to die without the Savior, an Advocate, that record will be their eternal punishment. Therefore, if one were to die lost it would be better to depart from this life early. We have been created eternal beings and because we often do not think this way we often miss the point. God is gracious in not allowing the unbelievers to live very long.
Gary,
For me, the important thing is the principle at work here. This kind of judgment, typically follows extreme heinous acts. Note in 2 Kings 16:3, no one particular nation is specified, rather ‘…burned his son as an offering, according to the despicable practices of the nations…..’ Child sacrifice wasn’t an isolated event. But there’s more to the context, much more.
However, so as not to lose the forest for the trees, let’s take a step back. Let’s look at Deuteronomy 32:8-9
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the bordersa of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.b
9But the LORD’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.
This happened at Babel. The ‘sons of God’ here are not people, they are ‘bene elohim’ in Hebrew and they represent spiritual entities. Fallen spiritual entities. This sets up the Cosmic Geography for what’s going on in much of the OT. These entities have real power and influence over the nations, and their purposes are set against YHWH and His chosen people Jacob. This gets rather complex, but if you are interested, Michael Heiser has done excellent scholarly work on this and explains it in greater detail. Here’s an excellent summary:
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/Deuteronomy32OTWorldview.pdf
More to respond to, which I hope to do later if I get the chance.
So you are saying that it was morally justifiable to kill the Midianite mothers and their little boys (but keep alive their virgin daughters…for some unknown reason…) because the Midianite mothers and little boys were descendants of “spiritual entities” (evil ghouls and goblins) ?? Weren’t the virgin daughters also descendants of evil ghouls and goblins? Why weren’t their throats slit?
Have you ever really stopped to think about this stuff, Dave? This kind of talk is right out of a Sci-Fi flick. Your God sounds like a real psychopath.
Gary,
First, allow me to repeat what I’ve already posted, as you seemed to have dismissed it:
For me, the important thing is the principle at work here. This kind of judgment, typically follows extreme heinous acts. Note in 2 Kings 16:3, no one particular nation is specified, rather ‘…burned his son as an offering, according to the despicable practices of the nations…..’ Child sacrifice wasn’t an isolated event. But there’s more to the context, much more.
—
I am giving you context. You seem to want to do whittle down each instance of ‘violence’ to one and only one reason. It doesn’t work that way. If I give you context, it is a contributing factor, something that casts an event or events in a slightly different light, not the only reason. Second, you seem to be beginning with the assumption that God is guilty until proven innocent, and for each and every historic event of violence, unless we have a full forensics report from the ancient near eastern crime division that fully exonerates God, you seem to be giving God the detriment of the doubt.
I think the verses I’ve mentioned already (they aren’t the only ones) illustrate the principle at work well. Not that you have to accept it, but it is the conservative Christian position. Remember, these documents that comprise the OT were not written to us, they were written thousands of years ago, to different recipients, with a different purpose, in a different culture, in a different historical setting, and the recipients has a different set of knowledge. The author isn’t necessarily going to recap all the details that are common knowledge to the recipients. In fact, in some cases, that would be insult their intelligence. Imagine writing a letter to Jewish people in a concentration camp during the second world war, and you went on to explain what a Nazi was, and who Hitler was. They already know this, and in this case, such an explanation might even be considered mocking them.
You wrote:
Have you ever really stopped to think about this stuff, Dave? This kind of talk is right out of a Sci-Fi flick.
—
Have you ever really stopped to think that unbelievers make the same type of accusations about Moses’ staff turning into a snake, the sea of reeds parting, the plagues, Jesus turning water into wine, the incarnation (God taking on human flesh), and the resurrection? I let the Bible be the Bible. I also believe the historical events recorded in the Bible actually happened. I don’t think I need to protect people from the Bible, a lot of Christians do.
Nevertheless, the view does have the support of rigorous Hebrew/Biblical scholars:
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/ElohimAsGodsFSB.pdf
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/What%20is%20an%20Elohim.pdf
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/DivineCouncilLBD.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHgjGUbFwhE
Dave, the first three links don’t work.
There is NEVER any justification for targeting children for slaughter. Never. To believe that there is, under certain conditions, during some time periods, for certain “evil” people, is immoral and abhorrent.
Fundamentalist Islamists follow the same sick logic.
Your belief system is evil, Dave. Face the truth.
Gary,
First off, to inject Fundamentalist Islam into the equation and play the moral equivalency card is incoherent to me.
Declaring war/judgment on a people group because of the things already discussed (child sacrifice, etc.) warning them, asking them to repent, having the message/messenger being confirmed by overt supernatural signs, being patient and waiting years, sometimes over a hundred years for people groups to repent……that’s one thing.
Randomly beheading people you encounter ‘on the street’ simply because they don’t agree on numerous theological points is another.
The two may be equivalent in your mind. In my mind they are distinctly different.
—
To address your other concern, first I would describe it differently. I wouldn’t describe it as TARGETING children. It was targeting a people group, of which children were a part. You wrote: is it morally justifiable to kill ALL the Canaanite toddlers and infants to spare some Canaanite toddlers and infants from human sacrifice?? It makes no sense morally.
First, you must understand what was at work here. God found the practice detestable for a number reasons, but if saving the Canaanite toddlers is the only lens you view this with, it differs somewhat from the biblical lens. Not that God loved ONLY Israel, but Israel was God’s first love. Israel had primacy, and His promise to Israel and their well being came first. These detestable practices the other nations partook of(and child sacrifice was only one), Israel was influenced by, and at times, Israel unfortunately did similar things. So PART of the reason of the judgment was to wipe out this influence on Israel. Keep in mind too, these nations were in one way or another, set against Israel, and ultimately, they were often hell-bent on Israel’s destruction. God would have rather that the nations repented and lived, but often they did not.
Gary wrote: If the parents were so wicked, why not just kill all the adults but save the children and raise them up as followers of Yahweh? Why kill all the little children?
This is a very good question, and I’ve wondered it myself. Why kill the infants? What did they do? I believe I’ve been given partial answers to this to help me partially understand, not fully. Some things to keep in mind:
This ‘economy,’ as it were, the Cosmic Geography in place during this period.
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/Deuteronomy32OTWorldview.pdf
Note also that I am of the opinion that this economy probably wasn’t primarily God’s choice, but man’s choice. Mankind and the nations, in general, rejected God, wanted nothing to do with God when running their personal and national affairs, so God said, ok, if that’s the way you want it, so bet it. Things will be different now.
2) Yes, God had other concerns, but His primary mission was keeping His promises to Israel, protecting them, and using them to reveal His unfolding plan, ultimately revealed in Jesus the Christ hundreds of years later.
3) The very existence of the Nephilim, Rephaim, and Anakim posed a serious threat to God’s plan of bringing a savior in the person of Jesus Christ. This had to be addressed. We don’t have all the details about this, only a few, but it was an issue that had to be dealt with.
4) When Israel disobeyed(ie. Saul, others) and didn’t completely wipe out certain people groups under the ban, invariably it led to tragedy, suffering and death down the road. So it is possible that God’s foreknowledge played into this.
5) The ancient cultures might have viewed this a little differently. I don’t want to emphasize this too much, or even say that it entered into God’s thinking. I don’t want to presume that, or necessarily suggest it. But as a side bar, I think it’s worthy of mention. Something that is often described as ‘retainer sacrifice’ that was practiced in ancient Egypt(and possibly other ancient near eastern communities), wherein the King, if he died, they might also kill his family and servants too, so that they could be with him in the afterlife. Not suggesting this is a correct belief, or even a good belief. It merely illustrates how different, sometimes radically different, the norms, culture, mores, and perspectives were in ancient times. When we ‘judge’ them from our 21st century armchairs, I think it’s unfair to avoid using the ancient near-eastern lens as we perform our assessment.
There is NEVER any justification for the targeted killing of children. Full stop.
Your god ordered King Saul to chop to pieces every Amalekite child regardless of age. If the story as told in the Bible is true, Israelite soldiers chased d0wn , terrified, screaming Amalekite toddlers and hacked off their little legs, arms, and heads or ran their little bellies through with their swords and spears. That is IMMORAL. Your god is immoral. Your justification of your god’s immoral behavior is immoral.
Your belief system is immoral, Dave. Face the truth.
Gary,
I’ve sensed all along you didn’t really want to have a honest/serious discussion about this, and this latest response just confirms my suspicions. You’re simply looking for a fight and someone you can sanctimoniously condemn. That’s fine, but I’m not your huckleberry. I’m done wasting my time.
The deliberate slaughter of children is a very serious matter of discussion, Dave. The fact that you are outraged at me and not outraged at the evil acts of your god is truly appalling and a sign of the absolute immorality of conservative/traditional Christianity.
Gary wrote: The fact that you are outraged at me….
Outrage at you? Huh? Where did you get that? Nowhere. You just made it up because that’s what trolls do.
Dave,
Imagine your reaction to an interview with an Islamic fundamentalist who uses the same justifications for executing non-Muslim children today that you are using to justify your god’s actions against children in the past. Ask yourself: Why is it morally different other than that the Islamist is not obeying the “correct” god?
I am not trying to make you angry, Dave, I am trying to strip away the layers of brainwashing that have convinced you that murdering children is moral in some contexts.
Sam – Sorry the links aren’t working for you. They are working for me, from multiple browsers and computers so it was either a temporary outage or something on your end.
Imagine growing up in a culture that has never heard of Jesus or Christianity. Imagine a conversation with a Christian missionary attempting to convert you to Christianity:
Christian: Hello, Friend. Do you have a moment?
You: Sure. What’s up?
Christian: I would like to share the Good News of Jesus Christ with you.
You: Who?
Christian: Jesus Christ. He is God’s Son who came to earth to die for our sins and to make it possible for us to live forever with God after we die. He loves you and wants to save you.
You: Save me? Which god are you talking about?
Christian: There is only one God, my friend.
You: Are you joking? There are many religions and many gods. So which god are you talking about?
Christian: The god of the Hebrews, Yahweh.
You: Never heard of him.
Christian: Yahweh is the one and only true God.
You: How do you know that?
(Conversation continued here):
http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com/2015/11/how-would-you-react-to-hearing.html
I went and read that conversation. Very insightful! Thanks.
If only all Christians thought like you, Jeremy.
Peace and happiness.