RETREAT!!!!!
I give up.
I wave the white flag.
I surrender.
I hang my head in defeat.
I slink off into the woods with my tail between my legs.
Over a year ago I set out to put a theory of mine down on paper about how to reconcile the violence of God with the self-sacrificial non-violence of Jesus Christ. The theory had been percolating in my mind for over a decade, and I finally decided to tackle the issue head on.
After 100,000 words, I give up.
If you read this blog much last year, it is almost the only thing I posted on… up until October 13. Then the posts stopped.
Why?
Because I hit a road block. A pot hole. A speed bump. A dead end.
What was the road block?
Only one little thing called…
…Scripture.
Most of what I had written was a hypothesis, a theory, about how to reconcile the violence of God in the Old Testament with the sacrificial love of Jesus in the New. My book was called When God Pled Guilty, and I was basically arguing that just as Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross, so also, somehow, the violent portrayals of God in the Old Testament is God taking the sins of Israel upon Himself through the testimony of inspired Scripture.
In other words, to the outside observer, Jesus hanging on a cross looks guilty (even though He wasn’t). So also, a casual reading of the Old Testament makes God look guilty (even though He isn’t).
I thought that there were enough hints and clues scattered through the Bible to show that the violent portrayals of God in the Old Testament are really just Him taking the blame and shouldering the responsibility for the bad things that happen in this world which He does not prevent from happening.
I thought I had a pretty good theory going…. until I tried to get the theory to match with the violent portrayals of God in Scripture. I soon found that all my theorizing hadn’t gotten me past the 1 yard line… of my own side of the field. I still had 99 yards to go, and the defense was shutting me down faster than the Seahawks shut down Peyton Manning…. (sorry Bronco fans…. I wanted Manning to win too).
Sigh.
Honestly, I should have seen it coming. Want to know why?
My wife was never convinced.
My wife is the greatest theologian and Bible scholar I know.
She has what I call “intuitive theology.” She doesn’t read a lot of books or spend dozens of hours each week studying… but she always knows more theology than I do, and always asks penetrating questions which shoot holes through all my acadamagician ideas (Yes, I just coined that term… it’s a cross between academic and magician… because that’s what most theology is. We throw some verses in a pot, mix in some fancy Greek and Hebrew and a quote from Barth, mix it up, blow smoke in people’s faces, and then Voila! — A book that everyone must buy!)
Anyway, my wife was never convinced of my theory, and so I should have known it was doomed from the start.
Another nail in the coffin though, was when I was recently interviewed by Drew Marshall (listen to the audio) and when I briefly mentioned this idea to him, he asked if I had been smoking marijuana. Ha!
But aside from my wife and Drew, there are a few other reasons I am abandoning this theory.
1. Occam’s Razor
No, this is not a new razor put out by Gillette (Now with 8 Blades!!!).
Occam’s razor is a principle used in science and other problem-solving fields which states the simplest solution is often right. Specifically (according to Wikipedia), Occam’s razor states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected.
If you did any reading of my hypothesis, you know that it was not simple. It is not a hypothesis with the fewest assumptions. To the contrary, my hypothesis was so complex, so difficult to grasp, and so full of details, I myself had trouble keeping it all straight in my own head!
Heck, I had already written 100,000 words on the topic, and was only about half-way done. (A typical 200 page book is about 60,000 words.)
2. Modern Disasters
A second reason I am giving up is because ultimately, I had no good explanation for the most difficult question of all… which is why bad things happen today. My hypothesis did very little to provide an explanation for this.
In my (abandoned) theory, I argued that the Old Testament portrays God holding back disasters upon people until, as a result of their great evil, they departed from God’s protective hand. I think that this can actually be seen time and time again in Scripture.
But then, what does this mean for the victims of Hurricane Katrina, or the December 26, 2004 tsunami that killed almost 250,000 people? How does my theory explain people like Hitler and Mussolini getting to live so long while they brought incredible amounts of evil upon the world? How comes they seemingly hadn’t departed from God’s protective hand?
What did my theory have to say to the millions and millions of little girls who are sold into sex slavery to be raped by as many as 40 or 50 men every single day?
Nothing.
Other than that “God didn’t do it,” my hypothesis could say nothing helpful, loving, kind, or hopeful to such situations or such people caught in a living hell.
3. Couldn’t Even Refute the Calvinists
I am actually not that interested in “refuting” Calvinists, but one area of Calvinistic theology which has always troubled me is the insistence by some that since God is sovereign, He is the cause of everything. If you press them, some will say that while God is not the “author” of evil, He is the primary cause behind all evil, sin, and suffering in the world. (For examples, see John Piper’s quotes here and here.)
Calvinists say that everything that happens in the world is because God’s wills it to happen.
So when a family gets in a car accident and the husband and wife escape, but their children die in a ball of flame when the car explodes, their Calvinistic pastor says that while we don’t understand why such things are God’s will, we must trust that God knows what He is doing because everything happens is according to His will. (This really happened, by the way).
The same argument is applied to Katrina, tsunamis, Hitler, and the raping of little girls.
In my opinion, such a god is monstrous, and is not worthy of worship.
But in the hypothesis I was presenting, I was saying that God “inspired” human authors to write negatively about Him in Scripture so that He could take responsibility for the bad things which happened on earth which He did not prevent from happening.
If that is true, then why I am upset at Calvinists for saying that God caused the bad things that they were ascribing to Him? If my hypothesis is true, isn’t saying “God willed your children to die in a burning car while you watched” the same thing as saying, “God sent a flood upon the earth so that everything which had breath died a horrible death by drowning”?
In my view, of course, God didn’t actually do either thing, but also in my view, God is willing to take the blame for that which He does not prevent, so I shouldn’t get too upset when people blame God for the evil things that happen in the world. After all, God apparently inspired some biblical authors to say the very same things about Him!
If God takes the blame for that which He does not prevent, then it is not wrong to blame God for the horrible events which happen in the world which He does not prevent.
This I could not accept.
4. Back to Ignorance
Last month I spent several days reading, editing, revising, and arguing with myself about the 100,000 words I had written.
I got the end (which was actually the middle, because the second half hadn’t been written yet), I realized I could have saved myself 99,997 words, and just written, “I don’t know.”
My fancy 100,000 word answer turned out to be little more than a long way of saying, “I have no idea how to reconcile the violence of God in the Old Testament with the self-sacrificial love of Jesus Christ in the New while still maintaining a conservative view of inspiration and inerrancy.”
Yes, I know. Many of you think I should just abandon inerrancy.
I would really hate to do that.
Pray for Me, Please?
Believe it nor not, this is a crisis of faith for me.
I cannot, CANNOT believe that the God revealed in Jesus Christ is the same God who drowns millions, burns cities, and commands His people to slaughter women, children, and animals.
Something else is going on in the text, but I just cannot figure out what.
My wife, with her intuitive theology, says it is something that cannot ever be figured out.
But my brain, which God gave me, cannot live with the tension. Something must give.
I seem to be left with only two options: Either Jesus truly is violent like God and He was hiding this dark side from us during His ministry, or Jesus truly revealed God to us and the violent portrayals of God in the Old Testament are in error.
The day after writing that post, when I was at work, a new thought occurred to me. A key, I’ll call it. It allowed much of the original hypothesis to remain intact, but organized it all around a central thesis which simplified and clarified the entire idea.
Although… just as I am writing this paragraph… a new thought has occurred to me…. what if? No. It can’t be.
Hmmm….
A brand new theory has just presented itself…
It seems simple…
Memorable…
Elegant…
…Heretical.
Hmm. I better run it by my wife…
If I decide to share it, you’ll be the first to know!
As a side note, many who read my blog tell me that Greg Boyd is coming out with a book later this year that sounds similar to what I was arguing. When I first heard this, I read some of his blog posts and listened to some of his sermons, and honestly, I cannot tell if he is arguing the same thing or not. I guess we will see. Apparently, if the ideas are similar, he has not hit the same road blocks I have… I look forward to reading his book… I think it is called The Crucifixion of the Warrior God.
Note: I wrote the preceding post last Saturday. As you see at the end, in the process of writing the post, a new idea occurred to me. I thought more about it on Sunday, prayed about it, looked at some key biblical texts, and (maybe most important of all – ha!) talked to my wife. She is still not convinced, but she sees promise in the idea. So, I’m back in the saddle again. Hopefully some new posts on understanding the violence of God will be published soon… I am still not sure my new approach has adequate answers to the four problems I stated above, but I think it is a move in the right direction.
“Either Jesus truly is violent like God and He was hiding this dark side from us during His ministry, or Jesus truly revealed God to us and the violent portrayals of God in the Old Testament are in error.”
That is exactly the same crossroads I found myself at.
I did consider something else though.
Maybe God can be violent because that is within his nature, for whatever reason he is that way. Maybe God is truly great because he is the ultimate capacity of all things possible, including evil. Maybe there is something about Jesus being a human that changes how the spirit of God behaves.
I think inherently, God functions drastically different than Jesus would. Perhaps the 2 cannot be connected because they’re not confined to the exact same natural laws.
Isn’t it possible that Jesus and his followers were originally planning a revolution after which Jesus would begin his messianic kingdom? But then Jesus was arrested and executed by the Romans when they were just getting started. And in their despair, the whole “death on the cross to atone for man’s sins” concept was just a post-hoc way of explaining away the defeat of their movement.
Same God. Different people.
Lets assume the best of those who wrote and probably edited the writings we often refer to as the Old Testament and allow that they accurately reported what they believed had happened. Let’s also allow the same measures for those who wrote and edited the New Testament. Let us also recognize that beliefs and perceptions had changed.
Perhaps the problem lies with our understanding of the ideas of inspiration and inerrancy. Is it possible that we have forced these constructs upon those writings?
I understand why many people need a totally inspired and inerrant book. Then they have a final, ultimate authority. The very thoughts of God. How can one challenge that? We become the people of the book. The book rules over all we think and do.
On the other hand, there are those of us who find our relationship with that God the most important. Our relationship with the book is secondary. We find wisdom and understanding in its pages, as well as portrayals of the god an ancient, warring nation worshiped. The same God? We think so, even though we do not think of him as our warrior king, but as the lover of our souls, the one who desires relationship with us.
Yeah. While I still hold to a basic idea of inerrancy and inspiration, I suspect that where I might be headed with this view will lead to a lot more flexibility on the doctrines of inspiration and inerrancy, which many fundamentalist Christians will not like one bit…
Why not just bite the bullet and look at the texts for what they – the collected writings of a bunch of people over many decades that were never intended to be reconciled. Yahweh was the warrior god of the bronze age nomards in the Levant. Jesus was a zealot in the same area. The Christians adopted Yahweh to give themselves street cred with the Romans – it made them look much older as a religion than they were. The God of the Hebrews was a monster and a sadist. Jesus was a wandering preacher who may have said some good stuff and some bad stuff. There is no God, there is no son of God, there is no second coming, no heaven, no hell. Grow up.
Jeremy, you attract a curious bunch of Christianity-haters to your comment section.
Hey guys – why the angry attacks at a pretend God? Maybe there’s a better use of your energy?
Anyhow, I don’t think they are different. I think they interact differently with the situation on the ground, but not inconsistently. This short comment can’t fill in for your tens of thousands of words, but might offer a footing for further thought. For your consideration:
1. The Creator is amazingly restrained throughout the OT. In the several thousands of years of history recorded there, do you have God constantly (ie some large portion of the time) smashing about and being randomly violent? I don’t think so. If you added it all up, you’d probably come out with not more than 100 years of God-directed or God-enacted violence. That’s a pretty small percentage of the time. Mostly, God is exercising long-suffering.
2. The violence that God demonstrates is a fiercely protective anger. He is not being violent wantonly, or for random pleasure, but to protect a remnant of humanity from being wiped out. Think Mama Bear with an eternal purpose.
3. If He is Love and Justice (and I think so), then I’ll argue that the death of relatively innocent Canaanite children and animals is reconciled in eternity. That is, if a Canaanite child who hasn’t personally been involved in abominable behavior dies at the hands of the Israelites at God’s instructions, that child would be treated justly in eternity.
4. Jesus is not fuzzy and gentle. He is a fierce warrior, as depicted in the imagery of Revelation. The nature of the violence is different (it’s shifted to the spiritual realm since the mission of establishing a Bride has been accomplished via the triumph of the Cross), but it’s no less real.
God has had a purpose from the get-go. He’s not ultimately un-just in any of his dealings with his creation. He has brought a remnant of humans through many thousands of years of the spiritual and physical danger of sin, finally stepping into the picture in human flesh to break the power of sin.
Yes, there seems to be a recent outbreak of comment accusations. I want a cordial comment section even where there is disagreement. If it gets worse, I will have to block some people.
Anyway, I completely agree that Jesus is not fuzzy and soft. Though He is gentle. However, I don’t read Revelation as it is often read in some churches. I don’t think there is a future bloodbath awaiting on the unrighteous people of the world.
Whether or not I continue to develop my hypothesis, I will eventually write some posts about Revelation.
You make good points which need to be considered. Thank you!
I take a amillenial partial-preterist view of Revelation. The imagery, though, includes a warrior Christ. How that works out (in the past, present, and future and spiritual/physical realm) is up for discussion!
BTW, are you at all familiar with Steve Gregg? http://www.thenarrowpath.com He’s on KWIL at 2pm. You might find some interesting thoughts there…
I might end up with partial preterism also, but we will see. Either way, I think there are non-violent ways reading Revelation.
I have not heard of Steve Gregg, but will check him out. Thanks!
Occam’s razor points to Sam’s explanation. As well, how many of us are willing to give up free will in exchange for constant policing by God? Answer honestly.
I have a list of my own maybes that may be helpful, or maybe they’ll just add to the confusion:
Maybe God can be violent because it is he/she walking on earth in each one of us, contending with the devil, also known as the self or the ego, at every moment. Maybe the significance of Jesus was that he was the first to be fully aware of that. Maybe he was right that the Kingdom of God is within us, but we don’t recognize it.
Maybe we can only grow spiritually when we are free to make mistakes and learn from them.
Maybe God is not unchanging, but ever-changing, ever-growing. Not a fixed image, but a kaleidoscope. Life, after all, is change.
Maybe karma and reincarnation fit into the explanations somehow.
Some years ago a local radio host asked, “Where was God in the Tsunami?” Maybe the best answer was something like, “God was right there, drowning in the waves, being smashed against rocks and trees, and clinging to rooftops. God was rescuing people stranded on top of houses or buried under rubble. Half a world away, God was shedding tears of compassion and emptying piggy banks to help out. We are all temples of God.”
Maybe the Calvinists are way off base.
Maybe it is time to give up inerrancy. It doesn’t mean giving up everything else, just seeing from a different angle.
I’m looking forward to reading your new idea – after the Mrs. cleans it up, of course.
Those are some good maybes, Lutek.
I am not comfortable with karma and reincarnation, but I can see how someone would accept them as a “maybe.” I am considering the the rest of your maybes and would appreciate your input and comments as the posts are published in the future (if I continue them). Thanks!
The fundamental issue is that contemporary Trinitarian theology demands that Jesus be 100% congruent with, and otherwise identical to the Holy Spirit, which, in turn, is fully congruent with, and otherwse identical to YHVH. A theological position that has neither scriptural support, nor the support of the Early Church Fathers.
What it has, is the imprementeur of The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, Militant, and Triumphant.
It depends on what you mean by 100% congruent and identical. Trinitarian theology teaches that they are three persons in one nature.
Regardless, the Trinity can be defended from both Scripture and the Early Church Fathers.
None of the Ante-Nicean Fathers were Trinitarian.
The First Nicene Creed supports Modalism.
The Second Nicene Creed is a compromise beween Modalism, and Trinitarian theology.
The flood it’s the most obvious example of what I am about to say.I may have v wore to you on another blog about this but I feel the need to say this again just In case Ivan thinking of someone else I asked and told about this. It was commoly taught in the past but not now. Fallen angels throughout the old testament were trying to contaminate bloodline of humanity by intermingling with humans. Destroy the human bloodline the human DNA you destroybthe ability for the birth of a human Christ. Noah’s flood was the most easy to see the world in thec120 years God gave instead of refusing to Michelle with demonic fallen angels people. We see Noah found grace which of course means salvation then later he was perfect in his generations. Meaning his DNA had not been contaminated by fallen angelic DNA. Christ had to have pure human DNA absinthe bloodline coulD not be contaminated. Many argue angels are non sexusl, but that’s in their pure housemate job 4:13-18, Jude 1:6-8, 2 peter_______ Because of the words of the curse(gen 3:14-15) Satan knew h his end would come through the seed of the woman. He was trying to directly that seed. Genesis 6:4 tells us that the original fallen survived the flood as they are immortal, but the offspring died. Therefore the attempt to destroy the bloodline continues. Belgium are mentionedcagain in numbers 13. Islands in Canaan. Gen 10:-12 refers to nine of as mighty one Which same as Nephilim. 1 Samuel 17:51. So we can see all throughout old testament we can trace the fallens’s steps. We see jesus casting demons out calling of people calling them by name driving them out of society. He was born so there was v no longer a need to call for mass killings of entire tribes to protect the blood line and we no longer see it. Please nobody take my word for it study and dig come to your own understanding of this. I did not v come to this belief lightly. I did not come to it simply to” make excuses” for God. I truly believe this. It was love off God always as He was proving the blood line all so Jesus could die and bring us grace.
Wendy.
You have a very difficult style of writing Wendy so I don’t understand a lot of it.
I am sorry. I do have a unfortunate habit of writing excitedly and forgetting to proof read. I also in my excitement forget that ideas are well pieced together in my mind I forget to give readers all of the pieces in my mind. I do apologize.
I do lean toward the idea of Noah’s uncontaminated bloodline, but take a different view of 1 Samuel 17:51. It is an interesting view, for sure!
The first point I want to make is that science and theology complement each other. They should work together to bring us answers to life’s basic questions. The problems arise only when the worldviews of either scientists or theologians crystallize into rigid, unchangeable, “final” structures. Learning is never complete in this world, and probably not in any other.
It may seem that I’m about to discount Wendy’s comment about angels and demons, and perhaps side with Harold, but I’m not. On the contrary, I want to point out that science has only had a problem with a spiritual realm, inhabited by spiritual beings, for one or two hundred years. Zealous scientists with atheistic biases have managed to shift the current worldview into one of materialism and moral relativism. Even many spiritually aware people have been somewhat swayed toward a materialistic explanation of spirituality.
Quantum theory now postulates multiple ‘universes’, or ‘realities’, – though in my thinking, Occam’s razor indicates that two is enough. The same theory also states that nothing exists physically without an observer. So cutting-edge science is back to the realization that the material proceeds from the immaterial.
In recent decades several authors, notably Jacques Vallée and Graham Hancock, have presented evidence linking angelic and demonic manifestations, fairy and elfin lore and UFO experiences as coming from the same, alternate realm of reality. Because these experiences have common basic elements even though they have been reported throughout history in unrelated cultures, they cannot be mere hallucinations.
But back to Genesis. My view of scripture is as being inspired by God, but written by man and thus never a completely accurate and perfect explanation.
Jesus has been referred to as the ‘second Adam’. The first Adam was the first complete human being in a physical sense; a culmination of the process of physical evolution, which resulted in a body capable of housing a spirit conscious and aware enough to attain the knowledge of good and evil.
Jesus, the second Adam, was the first complete human being in a spiritual sense; fully aware of his own spiritual nature and where it came from. He was also aware that his physical nature created an illusion of being separate from God, or even of being his own, individual god. That was the essence of his struggle with the devil in the wilderness.
The veracity of the details given in the accounts either of Adam or of Jesus is not important. What matters is the spiritual knowledge to be gained from those accounts.
Here is where I diverge a bit from Wendy’s final statement. As I see it, Jesus did not die in order to bring us grace, but by dying rather than submitting to the devil (whether real or metaphorical), he led us to, and showed us, the grace of God.
Right. I do believe that natural revelation will not conflict with special, divine revelation, and when they seem to, it is only because we have misinterpreted the data of one or the other.
Jeremy, do they (violence and love) need to be mutually exclusive. What is your take on Luke 13:4 on the Siloam tower event? If Jesus was there while the even took place, then his reply says a lot. What do you think?
I suppose it is possible that love and violence can coexists, such as when a parent spanks a son or daughter to discipline them.
As for Luke 13:4, I don’t read this as saying that God toppled the tower on these 18. It seems that Jesus is saying that we live in a sinful world, and in this world, bad things happen. If we live in sin, we can expect there to be consequences for our sin.
I have come to believe that he was saying God doesnt do these things to “zap”sinners. If He did all of man would have a tower toppled on them. I have been thinking for about the last year He was saying that the world is fallen. Bad things happen because it’s fallen. None know when something bad may happen to them. Repent so if it does you will be in heaven Be ready to die because the fallen world is as awful and unpredictable as fallen man.
Right. I agree. God does not topple towers on people. I absolutely agree that bad things happen because we live in a fallen world. That is why we must always be ready. Great input, Wendy!
Jeremy, I am praying for you as you asked. I also went thru/am going thru again, this same crisis of faith. Years ago I gave up on ever reconciling the violent images of God with the Jesus of the cross in the NT. Now I’m trying to understand NT Wright’s theory that “the coming of the Son of Man” should be associated with the destruction of Jerusalem. Seems to me his theory puts a sword in Jesus’ hand, but so many of my colleagues have no problem with that. I’m thankful for your blog, thankful that you’re honestly wrestling with God and the scriptures, as you’re helping me know I’m not wrestling with these things alone. Thanks, and you have my continued prayers, and I look forward to hearing your new theory.
Glenn,
Thank you. I may have to give up. Wright’s theory is tricky too, but for me, I am consumed with how to understand the violence of God in the Old Testament.
We have looked at this before. for me the question was “did God know that when He put Adam and Eve in the garden that they would succumb to temptation and rebel against Him”.
For me the answer is yes, assuming Yes, then Jesus already knew he would have to become flesh and die a horrible death some time in the future, in the very act of being there and speaking the universe into being.
When God created Lucifer did He know he would rebel against Him, again for me the answer is yes.
From the beginning God has always been perfect as He is, always has been, is now and always will be, unconditional love.
When Gods love inevitably exploded and created, it would be inevitably flawed as choice was added into the equation. When we read in scripture the “all have fallen short” the All includes the universe, angels, nature and mankind.
God did not create and leave, far from it, He did the total opposite as he knew a helpmate was needed to direct and aid His creation and a saviour.
Our Flesh has always been in opposition unto God so all the killings were necessary in the universes journey back to The Creator.
Calling God bad names in no way helps us to understand His ways. We, think we are better than God, we judge everything with our limited mindset, thinking we can create a world of freedom through love and peace. Look at the marvels we humans have discovered, the amazing scientific inventions that have transformed most of the worlds peoples, safer ways of working and every day life. God said come to me and I will give you life in all it’s fulness. That applies to everyone. Lets do it for our benefit and His Glory.
What is this freedom that everyone bangs on about. Paul wrote about it and concluded that freedom is a gift that can only be received by giving up our worldly freedom and receive true freedom from God The Creator. What does this freedom look like? Jesus explained it through a question and the answer the man gave and can be found in luke 10 v 27 “you must love the Lord your God with all your heart all your soul all your strength and all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself”. Jesus said” YES, do this and you will LIVE”. That word live when said by Jesus was more than saying keep breathing it meant this is The Way to live and if the man and we did, we would be as close as we can ever be at one with God.
When I left school and became an apprentice gas fitter. I was put with a fully qualified 1st class Fitter and also went to college to learn. When I saw the skills required I was certain there was no way I would ever in a million years qualify. After three years of reading, writing and receiving cuts, burns and bruises I to became a first class fitter. However i continued to learn, making many mistakes on the way and learning from them to become even better.
It’s a bit like that with the command to love God and our neighbor. We are all on a journey and while all the arguments and discussions will aid us to our ultimate destination we need to acknowledge that if we stop moving forward and get stuck on one of many difficult questions where we have not received an acceptable answer, we are never going to get there. However in spit of our arrogance God never gives up on us and never ever says, “your a lost cause” or “your a waste of space” Peter asked how many times (in a day) should we forgive, seven times? Jesus said No, seventy times seven. and we don’t start to calculate this equation because seven in the Bible is the number of completion, perfection, so, until Gods purposes are fully carried out, He never gives up on us. Thats one reason we don’t have the death penalty, because while there’s life there is hope.
I’ve probably gone on a bit, but I have never disrespected God in what has been written in scripture or how he manifests Himself through His creation, I don’t believe he has a problem when we do, but it effects Our walk when we do. As I said, when we build a wall in front of ourselves we need eventually to knock it down, sometimes with a friend who knows God more intimately then we do.
I am a bridge builder and a wall destroyer until i shake off this mortal coil.
Love divine all love excelling, Joy of heaven, to earth come down
Fix in us thy humble dwelling, all thy faithful mercies crown
Jesus thou art all compassion, pure unbounded love thou art
visit us with thy salvation, enter every trembling heart.
The final verse brings it all together as we become perfected
Finish then thy new creation, pure and spotless let us be
let us see thy great salvation, perfectly restored in thee
changed from glory into glory, till in heaven we take our place
till we cast our crowns before thee, lost in wonder, love and praise.
We are never ever in a place of no return to God, no matter what we do. I have heard so many say of themselves “I’m beyond saving” or “I think I have committed the unforgivable sin”, The first is a lie from the evil one the second is a misunderstanding of what Jesus meant when he said in Luke 12 v 10 “those who speak against the Son of Man may be forgiven, but anyone who speaks blasphemies against the holy Spirit will never be forgiven” Jesus was saying that if we disrespect the works of the Holy Spirit by attributing them to the devil continually, even unto our death, there is no way for us to enter into Gods rest because of our unbelief.
Those who say “have I committed The sin” have not because no matter how they feel about themselves they still believe and are in a place of repentance for their manifold sins and will be forgiven their sins, even if they are like scarlet. Isaiah 1 v 18 “Come now, let us reason together” says The lord “though your sins are as scarlet, they will be as white as snow, though they are red like crimson, they will be like wool”. Does that sound like a vengeful God to you? “Come on, lets reason together”. Would an earthly father not say this to his child who said “I hate you, I don’t love you anymore, I wish you weren’t my dad” “I wish you were dead”. God loved us so much he gave his One and only begotten Son so we could be saved from separation from Him.
Love Him, love Him back. Love Clive X
Hi Clive,
when you said : We have looked at this before. for me the question was “did God know that when He put Adam and Eve in the garden that they would succumb to temptation and rebel against Him”.
I was given this verse before in revelation 13 : 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.[a]
when it says the lamb who was slain from the creation of the world, is it refer to your question : did God know that when He put Adam and Eve in the garden that they would succumb to temptation and rebel against Him?
Wonderfully put Clive , if we don’t understand something about GOD ,it’s probably because we’re just plain unable to. Thanks for the comment.
Rob
Covenant love or nothing… what else drives us? The term, lions and lambs is two sided. One shreds and kills, while the other remains gentle and denotes protection. Any mixture of sin destroys the purity, as such we are doomed, full stop. There can be no reconciling with corruption. Indeed, we are doomed. Our forefather and mother ate the fruit. We are at the end of the alpha omega cycle where we may once again, decide to eat of the fruit, or to refuse to eat of it. As Gos is eternal, and all things begin in Him, all things return to Him. But we, as independent agents are free to experiment and wander as children often do. Some into darkness and others into light. That Satan chose to abandon his post and be god to people made just a little lower than him is a great challenge to us on every level. The bravado of Jesus to stand in front of death and say, “not so” is the ultimatum we must all face and do. The moment the discovery of love is complete, we are ready to stand at that doorway. The bridegroom is through that door. When the marriage of love and conscious wisdom are wed, the children born there remain immortal and free to choose where they will roam. They may remain in their first estate, or rebel and depart the Father as we have already seen. Are we not a movement and a rest? As we are in omega, are we not also at alpha? We are all of us free to choose in the spirit realm where we may not yet in the flesh. This license has been granted us by Yeshua Ha’Mashiach. Look up into the night sky and see, is it not evidenced by the eternal expanse that we too are free to roam, to create, and recreate? Among the stars are every manner of creation of which we here are many. There is an expanse of choice between heaven and hell to choose from. I choose to be in the light by will. Another believes he will rebel a bit to test the Father. What is that to me? If my words seem off topic, consider the language of heaven. Is it not music and light? Is not being like Christ greater than words? Show me that you love me bests tell me that you love me every time. Up high in the heavens are factories of creation. This is where our Fathers energy is expanding life. It is a very exciting place…!!! Because it is true is overwhelming… So look up, be absorbed in the light until the pain of death becomes a pinprick; and fear but a vapor… Exponential love awaits us all! We are lions and lambs.
Hi Jeremy
Thanks for this – interesting thoughts to chew on, especially as we seem to be from very different camps regarding how we perceive God.
Only comment I would like to make publicly: I would be very interested in reading what your has to say, on just about anything. Please would you pass on encouragement to her to consider airing her comments and perspectives not just in conversation with you.
Thanks, Sarah. I will let her know. She is not a writer, and really does not care for anything having to do with a computer, so it is unlikely she will ever write a blog post or even respond to comments. But she does read most of the comments on this blog though.
Hi Jeremy,
I thank you for your honesty and brought up this subject.. it is another good topic to ponder again 🙂
When I am trying to comment on this topic, I have a little bit question to ask. The violent portrayals of God in the Old Testament. I have read about God told the Israel to kill all of the tribes in the promise land. And what else in the Old testament shows us the violent of God?
In my own understanding, God is not only God of love, but also justice, patient, long suffering, etc.
When I ponder your struggling between God in old testament and Jesus, It comes to my own conclusion ( which is still guessing… I can be 100% wrong but, it makes sense to me…:)
It comes to the creation. Human was created in His own image. That means we are also created with the gift of free will , which actually comes together with consequence. I think God created consequence which go together with the gift of free choice. And I realize the consequence which we have to carry takes a long time… and when God interfere with the suffering, that can be God mercy ( for God people) but it is a judgment for ( people who reject God)
I still believe God in the old testament does not contradict with Jesus. This is what I learned.
In genesis 15: 13 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. ( it is a prophecy about Israel in Egypt)
In genesis 15: 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.
I was showed that in genesis 15: 16 God was still waiting for the Amorites to repent, not waiting for Amorites to compile their sin and waiting until their evil is reach the maximum ..:)
This make me wonder: why God allow his chosen people Israel to suffer for 400 years for the sake of Amorites people.. then I realize that this does not contradict with John 3:16 For God so love the world….so He waited and waited probably with hurt feeling to see how sinful they were.. at the end of the day, amorites is His creation…
This also happen in Noah time, where God, patiently waited for people to repent and believe in Him, and I believed He already knew that only 8 people who will saved from the flood, but He still instructed Noah to make extra bunks…..
To me that shows God’s love, long suffering, patient, does not bias…. but of course, when the disaster comes, means the God judgment arrive.
What I observe from the bible, when God gives judgement, He always warn people before hand.
It is different with the Tsunami now ( genesis 3 = God curse the earth because of Adam and Eve sin), hitler, child and woman abuse etc.. I think it is the consequence of sin, separation from God. I sometime ask a question, why God did not take away or prevent the sin or suffering? right after Adam and eve chosed to not obey God… He could destroy the sin straight away and the satan, right? then I ponder again… it must have something to do with the relationship. As Jeremy described God trinity in His blog….. I can not put the finger on it.. but..I know from my experience when I life was smooth without trial, I intend to take for granted God’s grace. My faith was so small, where I always put trust in others that God. After I went through the struggle, sin, etc, and called on God.. and asked Him to be my master, I knew now, my faith grows and grows in Him.
Shifera,
You have some good insights there. I am in basic agreement about the origin of violence being inherent within creation and God’s gift of free will.
As to passages of violence in the Old Testament, there are scores of them! I have gotten this question a few times recently, so maybe I should write a blog post or two about the violent passages in the Old Testament.
yes please.. it because.. I am so sure, God has a reason…. and His reason is actually make sense..:)
One more thought – just as we can’t possibly understand exactly HOW the lion will lie down with the lamb, until that time when we know all things fully even as we are fully known, so we can’t fully understand how the Lion of the Violent OT God is able to lie down with the Lamb of Reconcilng NT Jesus. Not until the end, even though we’re not wron to wrestle to TRY to understand.
All that to say, I agree with your wife. And there’s something to my lion/lamb connection.
Cheers
Sarah,
Definitely. That lion/lamb imagery is one of my wife’s favorites. She also cannot fully understand how it will all work, but she believes that it will. She often says that she just has faith like a child. But when I press her on some of these other theological issues, that’s when I realize she intuitively knows more than I do…. Ha!
I just spoke to her and told her what you said. She says, “Hello” and says that she wouldn’t mind writing more, but right now, most of her time is consumed with raising our daughters and homeschooling.
I have been trying to answer my son’s questions about my faith for some years now and in trying to do so have had to seriously look at what I believe. Also I went into school (7-11yr olds) for two years every now and again to share the journey with them by looking at what I believe and having interesting dialogue. I also run a Day Nursery for children 5 months to 5 years.
So with all this background and a passionate faith in who we call God and the God made man Jesus (as I believe Him to be), these are a few ideas I have come across and taken on board:
..the OT people are like toddler human beings – I want it, I take it…by physical force if necessary – and the God they believe in is like the adult in the Nursery – there, as far as they believe, to sort out the problems in their favour. A long long time without physical presence means that it takes a long long time for them to realise that the adult (God) is not necessarily there just for them.
…having spent some time with children discussing how their classroom was like a community, or a family, and how God wants us to live as family in the world we looked at the problems families have and came up with the fact that most of the pain is caused by things people do or say. That taken further, it is the internal affected by the external that hurts. When Jesus died, was it all about giving us a way to be one with God or was it a dynamic earth blasting example that the external will hurt, will destroy, but can never touch the true internal essence of who we are – and we go on to more?
…taken on, this then suggests that possibly all the evil in the world is just that, but whatever evil comes our way, in whatever form or intensity, just as Jesus took so much in his life, so we can have God’s peace etc etc internally no matter what life throws. I don’t actually believe that the world necessarily ever ‘started’ but our minds cannot contain that so how evil got here not a question to be dealt with here other than to say that apparently (and physics is a mystery to me) something needs an opposite to exist? Others can sort this one – it only needs for me to know evil does exist and so does God and God wins out.
Now, I have not experienced much grief in relative terms – but then again child birth is pretty full on, I have done that three times twice with no pain relief and the joy of it outweighed everything else. I saw my father live through the gradual failure of his muscles as his mind stayed fine until it eventually took him – but his faith shone out to the end.
My point is this: we say that God is spirit…do we really know what that means?
We say that God is all things good, is love, can this live within someone even when they are being raped, or tortured, or whatever? Or is it limited to easy life relatively and anything gross will shut it down?
My faith is quite simple – I believe that there is truth in the Bible to be found for the person reading it as they read it asking God to teach them something about their life and how to live it. I believe God’s spirit lives within me as I breathe in and out, that whatever I need will never be more than a breath away but I need the belief to own it.
I believe the spiritual, the internal, will always overpower the external but in order to experience that we have to have an upside down view of everything in that the physical is not ever as important as the spiritual – and this is something special a gift a freedom that is amazing and in our world of Ugg boots and cars with amazing technology, with the million catalogues that drop through the door or show their wares on our screens…to discover and experience the joy of the internal spirit life is nowhere near as easy as it sounds – and once experienced it is an effort to hold to it and feed it for it to grown and be the power it is meant to be.
God’s wrath? I feel God’s grief would be more in line with my feelings.
The God I believe in and have experienced could not kill or harm directly. And if one of His children has been harmed in any way, His peace love strength and ability to hold the internal safe in spite of the external would be enough.
Naive. Innocent. Misguided.
It’s what I believe….in relative terms when my heart has been breaking, He has been there for me – in my heart to heal it. The physical, visible is nowhere near as real as the invisible, the internal, the spirit, the essence of who I am – I AM.
We are on a journey of discovery – this is where I have got so far. It works for me. I offer it in case it makes sense to you.
Moriel,
There is great wisdom in what you say. You sound a lot like what my wife says on the topic.
I really like your point about God’s great grief. I think that describes His feelings in the matter perfectly.
Thank you for this encouragement – I feel much more misguided than wise most of the time though God encourages me on – this time via your work – so keep it up and I pray He leads you on to continue to challenge and inspire others and that you feel His pleasure as you do so..
Moriel
Jeremy, maybe God is not ‘violent’. Violence is most assuredly displayed in the OT. I deny not this fact. But I was studying 2 Samuel 7 and it seems curious that God denies David the privilege of building the temple because of violence (blood shed). Is it possible our lense sees God incorrectly? A thought. Very insightful, none the less, your research that you’ve shared with us.
THANKS
Tony,
Excellent insight there into 2 Samuel 7. I do think our lens is darkened somewhat, and Jesus helps us see clearly. I also think that the non-violent “Jesus type” God frequently breaks forth in the pages of the Old Testament. How do see and discern this is the issue sometimes, I suppose.
Jeremy,
reading this it appears you are at least heading somewhere and will probably arrive there with or without this modest contribution but I would direct you to several pieces of writing that it appears you may be ready to read. I don’t mean that in any intellectual or scholarly sense but in one that may coincide with the search and journey you are on.
Rene Girard; Probably any of his works but notable are The Scapegoat; Violence And The Sacred; Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World.
And two Girardian Scholars that so far I’ve read (or reading) James Alison: The Joy of Being Wrong, Original Sin Through Easter Eyes. And Michael Hardin: The Jesus Driven Life.
The questions you admittedly wrestled with in your effort are, in my mind, settled by these works and this direction. But beware the rabbit hole is deep indeed.
Simple, elegant, subversive. Just like Jesus.
Peace,
Mark
Mark,
Wow! Thank you. I actually have not read any of those books, nor (much to my shame?) ever heard of them. I have heard of Girard, but never read anything by him.
I am not certain, but it looks like his idea may help me as I think through my own. I may even end up flat-out agreeing with him. Thank you for the recommendations. I bought the books today.
Mark, Thank you for the book suggestions – I shall look them up too – in all this, sharing the journey with others trying to make sense of stuff is so encouraging
Moriel
Hey Jeremy, I also emailed you, but have more to add to what I said in my email.
I’ve been watching you and Greg Boyd with some interest around this topic, while doing my own study.
The most interesting thing I’ve discovered lately is that Deuteronomy is all in Moses’ words and there is a case for separating the 10 commandments from the Law (teaching) of Moses. I’m not convinced of it yet, but one can build a case for it based on the actual text itself.
The most interesting case, I believe, is when we see how Jesus treats the law. We all know the sermon on the mount, but notice the conversation around divorce – Jesus explicitly says that it was Moses’ commandment, not God’s. We might be able to nod our head at that, but that has some kind of implication on everything else we read in Deuteronomy, including commandments for what some label as genocide.
I suspect Moses, being middle-eastern and all, would probably use a sufficient amount of hyperbole in his commandments because he felt that the Israelites were stiff-necked and the rest of it. We’re happy to accept Jesus’ hyperbole when it comes to cutting off our arms and legs; there may be good reason to believe that Moses uses hyperbole too (note that when it comes down to it, it seems that Joshua still offered the Canaanites some option of peace, as per the law of Moses).
This going theory does fit Occam’s Razor quite nicely and in all honesty lines up with how we treat other books of the Bible – we take note of the writer, their context, etc. and see inspiration coming through that lens. In other words, Moses was coloured by his particularly tribal ways, and didn’t necessarily get the commandment wrong (so it’s not inerrant) he coloured it with his own language (hyperbole) and views of Yahweh and was perhaps looking to garner some kind of faithfulness from the Israelites to Yahweh by painting him as a conquering God of sorts. We can come to these conclusion by looking at this through the lens of Jesus.
I think you can see where this might go. I’m not sure about how heretical it is, but it may lead to us to being able to reconcile Gospel and Law in several other ways too. I’m not sold yet, but there appears to be something here…
Take care man and all the best with this study!
Ryan
I am way behind in email, Ryan, so I am reading this comment before I read the email! I will get to it though. Hopefully.
Anyway, I like your line of reasoning here. I think there may be some hyperbole going on. I really like your observation there with Jesus and the Law of Moses.
You say you are following Greg Boyd on this? People keep telling me he is writing a book on this, but I don’t see how you can know what he is writing. I post my book on my blog as I write it, but as far as I can tell, Greg doesn’t really do this. How are you able to follow the development of his idea? I would like to know so I can go check it out …
Hi Jeremy! I realize Revelation is a book of metaphor and symbolism, not to be interpreted literally. That said, Christ Jesus is laying some heavy stuff down, the metaphors are extremely violent.
Personally finding violence to be repugnant does not change Scripture or God.
God is accepting us as He finds us. Shall we not do likewise? He does not need to be justified by man.
Yes, Revelation is violent. The question is why. I’ll get to it (hopefully). I agree we need to accept God as He is. But that’s the question, isn’t it? What is God like? I content that He looks like Jesus.
Wow so much reply’s on this blog. And so much insite. I love it all. Keep them coming.
Jeremy, I posted this comment to your Facebook page on April 2nd, but haven’t heard a response yet:
“Jeremy, here is an article you will appreciate showing God is never violent, entitled, “SATAN: Old Testament Servant Angel or New Testament Cosmic Rebel?”
at
http://www.clarion-journal.com/clarion_journal_of_spirit/2013/11/satan-old-testament-servant-angel-or-new-testament-cosmic-rebel-by-richard-murray.html
Richard Murray is a criminal defense attorney outside Atlanta, and holds a Masters of Practical Theology from Regent University.”
Jeremy, this is the single most important article I have ever read. I sent it to Greg Boyd last summer, and he responded: “…My own approach (in the forthcoming Crucifixion of the Warrior God) to this problem isn’t all that different from Murray’s….”
I certainly hope Boyd’s book will indeed be in line with, or at least acknowledge, Murray’s approach/revelation.
God is not violent. He is not bipolar. We need to completely purge Satan’s activities from our concept of God; this includes how we interpret Bible passages that indicate “God” is violent.
Hermano,
Thanks for posting the link here as well. I somehow missed it on Facebook. I will check out the article.
Hi Jeremy,
The problem you deal with in this post has bothered me and many others. Below I have outlined what my father taught me about them. The explanation satisfies me, but I’d like to know what you think. Please pass it by your wife too… 🙂
NATURAL DISASTERS – When innocent people die in an earthquake men and not God are to blame. But isn’t God in control of the earthquake? Yes, but God has given us real FREE WILL. That means we have the POWER to do good or evil. God limits this power, in part, by bringing death to all men. But God DOES give us real power which we can use to do evil. Adam had the power to bring death into the world (the curse). He was duly forewarned of his power, and chose to exercise it anyway. (Genesis 2-3) The result is all the “natural” suffering in the world.
THE CANAANITES – There were three kinds of Canaanites that were killed:
1) Adult Canaanites who were deep in evil (killing their own children as sacrifices to idols, etc.), and refused to repent. These deserved to die for their own sins.
2) Adult Canaanites who were deep in evil (practicing prostitution, etc.) but choose to repent. Such people, like Rehab and all her house were rescued by God from the slaughter. NOTE: The God of the old testament was not an “angry God”. Ezekiel 18:23. The God of the New Testament is not a “nice guy” – Christ talks more about eternal hell than just about anyone else.
3) Under-age Canaanites (who were not yet old enough to refuse good and choose evil). I presume this is the group of people you are concerned with. I believe that this group of people went straight to heaven. God will judge us according to what we have done (Romans chapter 2). Any child too young to have chosen evil, cannot consequently be cast into hell. You may still be concerned, however, that God commanded these children be killed (we aren’t allowed to go on shooting sprees in Preschools because “they’re all going to heaven anyway”).
God has the authority to decide when we will leave this earth. Armed with omniscience, he exercises this authority only for our good. God’s choice was not arbitrary or made in a fit of temper (e.g. Genesis 15:16 God tells Abraham that his descendants will not possess the already populated land because the iniquity of the inhabitants was “not complete.” Only at a certain point is a society so depraved that every individual in it who will not repent must be wiped out.)
In Him,
Jeremiah
Thanks for the insight, Jeremiah! It looks like you have done some good thinking and studying on the subject. Keep working at it!
I am not comfortable with the idea that society can get to a point where it is so depraved that it must be wiped out. I know this sort of thing seems to happen in Scripture (the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc), but I just struggle with what this says about God’s ability to work with any sort of person, society, or culture….
As I see it, how violent does a culture have to be, before God says: “Have it your way”, and withdraws whatever protections He has in place, that prevents that culture from destroying itself.
One book I recently read, claimed that every ice-age, and pre-ice-age door ever found, was either littered with arrowheads, or bore evidence of being the subject of s sustained assault by arrows, and other implements of violence. A different book claimed that every fossil (construction) of homo sapians, and its ancestors, bore evidence of injuries substained through being physically beaten upon.
I don’t know how accurate those claims are, but if true, they provide an interesting supportive backdrop to Genesis, and various other books about that era of history.
On the flipside, there is a theory that crime, and by extension, violence, is triggered by bio-chemical activity in the brain.
A different theory postulates that spiritual experiences are triggered by psychedelics being absorbed by the pineal gland,
Ponder on the implcations of both of those theories being falsified, and found not-wanting.
Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for the encouragement! I believe the Bible can explain any important aspect of God’s character, including how he deals with individuals and societies. I think that the scripture stories below, might explain a part of how He does this.
ANY individual from ANY society can turn to God for grace. God teaches this important lesson by specially recording the obscure stories of people like Ruth and Rehab.
But equally important, God deals with societies in the exact same way. If the Canaanites or any other people group were willing to give even a pretense of repentance, we may expect that God would have spared them as a group. This is taught in the book of Jonah where the Ninevites (who we know to have been about as bad as the Canaanites) were spared destruction because they repented as a group.
On the flip side, those that sinned collectively were punished collectively. The Israelites who refused to go into Canaan as a group were destined to die in the wilderness as a group. The INDIVIDUALS among them who went against the group decision (Caleb and Joshua) had their lives prolonged so that they could enter the promise land.
Hence God works with individuals and societies in much the same way. There is one difference. When God is forced to punish a collectively bad society, the righteous minority in that society will also suffer. Caleb and Joshua still had to wander in the wilderness for 38 extra years before they entered the promise land. The righteous Rechabites were not exempt from Nebuchadnezzar’s invasion.
But
1) God brought Caleb and Joshua into the Promise Land, and God promised that the line of the Rechabites would endure forever (Jeremiah 35).
2) God gave those around the righteous real free will, and hence they can make us suffer. Only be removing this free will could God exempt Caleb, Joshua, and the Rechabites from any kind of discomfort.
Conversely, when a society as a whole is righteous, individual evildoers may live in peace. This represents the free-will ability of us as the righteous to create good for those around us.
In the long run, of course, every individual will stand before God and be judged according to his deeds. “To those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality – eternal life. But to those who are selfishly ambitious…” (Romans 2)
In such a way – in every case I know of – God offers mercy and dispenses justice.
In Him,
Jeremiah
I would like to mention something that gets easily overlooked in our would today. Bad things happen like you mentioned (Katrina, sex trafficking, ect.) but God does not cause those things to happen. God may allow those things to happen but the cause of those things is sin. The original world that God created was perfect. The worlds perfection was lost due to sin. Sin does not only effect humans but also creation. God gave Adam and Eve a free will without which they would not have be able to sin. The exercise of that free will in choosing someone other than God has corrupted all of God’s creation. Look at things from the other side of the coin. How many bad things could happen or should happen that don’t? How much is God not allowing to happen that should because of our sin. If you look at things from that perspective God doesn’t seem quite as wrathful but more merciful toward His creation. We must always remember that God is not somewhat merciful and somewhat wrathful but He is both in their complete form at the same time. In short I don’t see a real difference between the revelation of God’s character in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Thanks, David. I agree for the most part. I just cannot imagine Jesus (the ultimate revelation of God) commanding His disciples (or us) to go slaughter people in His name. This is where my trouble came from. If Jesus reveals God to us, and Jesus would never command such things, how could God?