Be careful not to quote too much Scripture to an atheist… because he or she may start quoting Scripture right back! There are a lot of verses in the Bible that seem downright, well, anti-biblical. Or at least anti-christ.
You know… verses about killing babies, marrying girls you raped, and slaughtering all your enemies (including their cows and sheep).
Would Jesus command such things? I don’t think so…
Yes! My husband loves to quote me OTverses. I just say, ‘You’re right, that doesn’t sound good.” That’s all I can say.
Sometimes that is the best answer!
Christian theology is much simpler when the Tanakh is discarded.
It’s even simpler when Paulist theology is discarded as well, leaving only the teachings of Jesus, particularly the two great commandments.
It’s even easier when the whole Bible is discarded, leaving only the silence, patience and peacefulness of the Creator to guide us.
We may have been using the wrong term in the above comments. “Discounted” is probably better than “discarded.” All scripture, not just the Bible, has value when read in the proper context.
It would be excessive to discard the Bible forever, but it would certainly be helpful to set it aside entirely, and just listen for the voice of God; at least for a while.
Why not take that last glorious step and discard the need for the imaginary man in the sky?
What are you talking about, Prinzhal? No one has mentioned a man in the sky.
I think the Hebrew Scriptures can still serve as a guide, especially when we realize that it is in some way the foundation of both Paul’s and Jesus’ theology.
I am still trying to sort all this out though…. I have much learning and relearning to do…
Christianity would be a lot easier if we got rid of Christian fairy tales, like the universe was created in 6 days and the earth is only 6,500 years old.
My favorite fairy tale is the Trinity.
Fairy tales? I don’t believe they are fairy tales. Even if the universe was not created in 6 days, there is great truth and wisdom and insight to be found in Genesis 1-2.
I hear you on that one – LOL
Hello Jeremy,
As I read your carefully worded title to your article I wondered why would your write it in such a way as make to unbelievers comfortable in their sin and Christians leery about using it when discussing issues about their faith. It would have been helpful if you added scripture to make your point. Christians ought careful how they interpret and use scripture when discussing spiritual matters with non-Christians. If you had written something to the effect of warning Christians not use scripture out of context you would have been immensely more effective in your message. The initial comments seem to be offered by people who may not treasure the word of God. That is their choice and they will be accountable to God for their decision. As you know, 2nd Timothy 3:16-17, states “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work”. 2 Timothy 2:15 also says “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (KJV). There are many more scriptures that talk to the Christian’s responsibility to read, study, and apply the truths in the bible to their lives. If we choose to do so, God will give us the strength and wisdom to lead exemplary lives filled with His love for others that will allow us to speak about God redemption plan through Jesus to those who are willing to hear. May the Lord God and son Jesus bless you as you seek Him through His word.
Thank you for your comment, Roger.
This was simply a light-hearted post about the Bible. It was not meant to be a theological defense of the authority of Scripture or a call for Christians to study the Bible in context.
How would you know the voice of God was truly the voice of God or what it was saying without the Bible? What the folks above are describing is really listening to their own internal thoughts which often leads to some really bad places because the internal thoughts of humans are as bent as we are, marred by the sin of our rebellion against God.
And this is what marks the true Christian from the make-it-up-as-you-go-along pretend Christian. The true Christian wants to understand what God is saying and to follow it rather than just assume that whatever comes into their head is a godly thought. True Christians sometimes find themselves challenged to obey God and that is how we know that He is not us.
I’ll try to answer your question, Lela. And I won’t make it up as I go along. My answer is based on years of seeking, questioning, learning, prayer and study. But first, let me turn it around and ask you a question.
How do you know that the Bible is the word of God?
Jews have never described the Hebrew Bible, known to Christians as the Old Testament, as the word of God. The only part of it claimed to be written directly by God are the Ten Commandments.
What about the New Testament? Much of it didn’t exist when that letter to Timothy was written. Those books that were in existence were not yet canonized into “scripture.” Do you think the author was referring to his own writing? Do you believe he was arrogant enough to think that he was writing “holy scripture”, as he wrote that letter?
Paul, and whoever actually wrote 2 Timothy, must have been aware of, and even familiar with, other scriptures, such as Hindu and Chinese writings. After all, the Levant was a crucial hub of transportation in those times. The author stated that ALL scripture is inspired by God, and beneficial. But he certainly didn’t claim that it was the verbatim, inerrant word of God.
Take this next question allegorically, or take it literally, but it comes down to the same thing: Are you sure that the Devil wasn’t whispering into the ears of the Bible’s various authors, tempting them as they wrote? Are you sure that none of them ever succumbed to any of those temptations? Are you sure none of them were motivated by personal desires and agendas? Even if they were completely selfless, are you sure they didn’t make any mistakes? Who doesn’t make any mistakes?
Then, ask those same questions about the various theologians who interpreted the writings.
Considering all of that, shouldn’t you try to hear and know God for yourself?
So how do you know the voice of God?
Here are some ways that I’ve learned. If the “voice” makes you feel love for others, it is the voice of God. If it makes you feel love for yourself beyond a healthy self-respect, it is not. If it makes you aware of your mistakes and their consequences, it is the voice of God. If it makes you feel worthless, it is not. If it makes you feel fear, it is not the voice of God. If the voice encourages you to focus on yourself, it is not the voice of God.
You make some good points about internal thoughts. But keep in mind that, as mystics throughout the ages have attested, the voice of God is internal as well. Each of us can hear the voice of God, but only after we turn off the internal dialogue, the voice of self. It comes down to a matter of direction. Do you direct your thoughts and actions inward, to yourself, or out toward the One from whom and in whom all things flow? Do you choose to satisfy yourself, or do you choose the greater good? Do you choose the struggle and conflict of separation and selfish individualism, or the harmonious flow of compassionate connection? Your self will always want you to choose the wrong voice.
The thing is, we can never completely silence the selfish voice. That is where fellowship is helpful, but not to promote dogma; rather to have someone who might provide a missing insight, or might lovingly suggest a better choice, or point out with gentleness and compassion where we may have taken a wrong step. But doesn’t even the slightest and gentlest criticism often hurt? And doesn’t pointing out someone else’s mistakes sometimes provide a perverse sense of self-satisfaction? Blame your ego, your selfish ‘voice’, in both of those cases.
No one said it would be easy to listen to God. But once you start, it keeps getting easier, less painful and much more satisfying.
Lela,
I think you may be taking this post too seriously. It was just a light-hearted post about how the Bible is difficult to understand sometimes.
Like it or not , the Bible is the word of God/Christ/Holy Spirit, just use it wisely as Jesus did.
Jesus didn’t have “The Bible” as we know it today. He had only the Hebrew Tanakh, the Old Testament, which he wisely interpreted spiritually, often in stark opposition to the commonly accepted theological interpretations.
To simply say that the Bible is the word of God, without explaining that, is meaningless rhetoric.
Is it words spoken by God? No.
Is it words dictated by God? No.
It is a record of thoughts and insights inspired by a desire to know God, that is, to know the truth of the ultimate nature of reality.
The Bible is the record of that quest within one specific culture. Other, similar writings are the Tao Te Ching and the Baghavad Gita, to name just two. Each such scripture has something special to contribute. In the case of the Hebrew Bible, the special contribution was the concept of monotheism. In the case of the New Testament, it is the Christ as experienced by Paul – a concept that was immediately misunderstood, perhaps not by Paul himself, but certainly by his followers and scribes.
Yes, “use” the Bible wisely. Rather than using it the wrong way, it’s better not to use it at all.
Genius
Love this explanation, Lutek. Thank for weighing in here.
Well,I think it is safe to say that Jesus quoted the Old Testament often and also says that it actually is about him. This would be in contrast to a lot of other scripture in the world. Jesus is explicit in John 14:6 that there is no way to God, but thru him. None of this adds up with your statement that Jesus wisely quoted just the spiritual parts. Jesus and the apostles are fairly explicit that they are the answer to our eternal destiny with no other options. You are looking for a gnostic take on this, again something the new testament writers were opposed to, as well as those that met to canonize the New Testament. Why did the Jews spend so much time making sure that the copy of an old testament document was pure, if they did not believe it was sacred? I was brought to the knowledge of Christ from reading the Old Testament and understood the gospel by the time I got to Isaiah, my depravity and need for a savior. I will speculate that you can not find that answer in any other document. One needs to look at scripture thru the eyes of Christ, to see and find the truth. It is there, our job is to come together with the spirit and find it. There are truths in other world religions and this should not surprise us, because the Devil is in all of the details. The difference is all true natures of God, Satan, and mankind are in the Bible. When I began reading the Bible, I had zero knowledge of anything about Christianity or any faith, because I was unchurched and never read a thing on any religion. What form of religion I had would now be considered a crude form of Hindu/Buddhism. Once again I developed this on my own, but was transformed quickly, after almost giving up reading the old testament, because of all of the killing that God was apparently orchastrating in the early books. But somehow, I was brought in to the fold by this book and recognized God in Jesus by Isaiah. I kept coming back to this feeling that everything was about Christ, never experiencing or reading the new testament. Once again, this seems to fall into the whole idea that we need to understand what we are getting in the Bible from Christ’s stand point, not ours.
Dino,
The Bible definitely can lead us Jesus. I am glad God used it in this way for you. But for many, certain parts of the Bible lead people away from Jesus. That is the point of this post (if there is a point).
It’s hard to believe that anyone could interpret Isaiah as referring to Jesus without the coaching of Christian theologians. I’m guessing your bible had those annotations at the top of each page, as is common with a lot of bibles.
I didn’t say that Jesus quoted just the spiritual parts of scripture. I’m not even sure what that would mean. I said that he interpreted scripture spiritually, rather than theologically.
You wrote, “One needs to look at scripture thru the eyes of Christ, to see and find the truth. It is there, our job is to come together with the spirit and find it.” If by Christ you mean the spirit of God within us, I couldn’t agree more. But the eyes of Christ are not necessarily the same as the eyes of theologians or even the eyes of the N.T. writers themselves. Paul may have seen through the eyes of Christ at times, but the writings attributed to him indicate that he often did not. Even by the second century there was little indication of “seeing through the eyes of Christ” in the early church.
In general, your comments make enough sense if you assume the inerrancy of scripture, especially the New Testament. The problem for me is that I see no reason to make such an assumption; quite the opposite in fact.
It seems to me that it was mainly in the Gospel of John that Jesus reportedly said that the O.T. was about him. I think there was something in Luke as well.
The writings of Luke as well as those attributed to the Apostle John are among the latest-dated of all the New Testament books. By the time they were written, the Paulist influence was well established. It can be clearly seen in the Gospel of John, which is so different from the earlier, synoptic gospels.
Paulism is a major deviation from the teachings of Jesus. Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God; Paulism turned Jesus into God. I used to think that Paul himself was a Paulist, but now I’m not so sure. I think Paul probably differentiated between Jesus, the Christ and God, but his followers, scribes and later theologians eventually lumped the three into one.
Criticisms of the principles of inerrancy and divine inspiration are usually met by accusations of “cherry-picking” the scriptures. But that’s exactly what the early church fathers did, to come up with the canon of the New Testament. That was a far-from-unanimous selection, and the process was a highly political power play involving ploys such as persecution and even murder, both notably un-Christlike activities.
The Devil is in the details of Christian theology, as well.
The devil is in the details, that is for sure. Studying theology wearies me because it seems like just about the time I think I get it figured out, I learn something new which throws all my theology up in the air again.
The Bible lead me to Christ pure and simple, I had no idea that Bibles existed with theological concepts. I was listening to Cassette tapes in 1988 from the NIV version. No coaching here. It is obvious that Jesus is claiming deity and that all the writers are claiming it as well. As far as the spirit and eyes of Christ, because he is the word as the Bible claims in the New Testament, it is fairly obvious that you can only find its reality with the help of the Holy Spirit. This is common sense theology and is every where in scripture, both old and new. The Devil and the fallen angels all acknowledge this, but don’t want us to know. Yes I believe in the are inerrancy of scripture, both Old and New. There are a lot of apologists out there that can argue all day for inerrancy. You sound like you have gotten a lot of your information from Christian Theology classes taught in Philosophy classes in Universities. These classes have ruined the life of many. I am living testimony that the Old Testament leads you to Christ. I had no background in Christian or Jewish thought. You have to form an opinion from the evidence. Evidence almost always points to polar differences. Take evolution and Biblical Creationism. Both theories use the same evidence and come up with two logical perspectives. It all depends how you want to use the evidence. You keep trying to find a way to prove my statements wrong and I am just sharing with you what happened. But if you don’t want to accept it, you won’t see it. What do I personally have to gain? You talk about who the writers actually were and the development of the theology over two centuries. Remember that more manuscripts exist of the Old and New Testament than any other ancient writings, and the texts have a better than 90 percent line up to one another, better than any other copied documents in ancient texts. I interpret this as the super natural helping us out, but you interpret it as something else. I am using my personal experience as the starting point. Once again something that is seen thru out the 66 books that have an unbelievable common theme.
Jeremy, your theology is a lot better than you think. You are 100% that many are lead astray by what is in the Bible. This is one of those areas where I really do believe you need the Spirit working in you to understand the evidence being presented. I understood the point of your post, my posts are directed at lutek, who I feel is presenting the other side of this debate. I may be wrong, but it is my conjecture that God is using your life experiences and knowledge to help us all understand the evidence, not excluding you. If your choice of Till He Comes has anything to do with working this all out until he returns, considering what Daniel wrote about in the increase of knowledge as we get closer, this site you have orchestrated fits in quite well. I will be surprised if it doesn’t keep growing.
Dino,
Thanks for the encouragement. The blog title is actually an acrostic, which I cringe at a little bit today, but when I first put it together 15 years ago (or so), it meant this:
Truth in Love, Letting Him Equip Christians to Obey, Minister, Evangelize, and Send.
Dino, I don’t deny that the Old Testament may have led you to Christ. Each of us arrives by his own path. I’m just suggesting that there may be yet to come a deeper understanding of the Christ. Theology is not a one-time revelation, but a continuous process of learning and growing; for each of us.
I’ve taken no theology or philosophy classes (other than a year or two of Catholic Sunday School as a child), though I’ve done a a whole lot of reading in both subjects.
I think it’s overly dramatic to say that “Christian Theology classes taught in Philosophy classes in Universities” have ruined the lives of many. Can you give any examples of lives that were ruined by philosophy or theology classes?
Is there no place at all for philosophy, or for theology other than your own, in your scheme of things?
The Q’uran is seen by fundamentalist Muslims, and the Bible is seen by fundamentalist Christians, to be completely inerrant. But considering the extreme fallibility of any human being, it is illogical to consider any writing to be inerrant. So I’m curious. What led you to your belief that the Bible is inerrant? Do the identity of the writers and the historical context and development have no significance, in your view?
If there really are any sides to this discussion, then from any one side it will look as if I’m taking the other. That’s because I try to find the common ground of truth, which is usually somewhere in the middle. For example, I don’t find evolution and creation to be contradictory, if both are properly understood. Nor do I find the basics of Christianity and Islam to be at odds with each other, or with other major religions, for that matter. They’re all different of course, but not irreconcilable. Again, the key is proper understanding.
It is not God that judges and condemns non-believers in any given faith. God knows, no one person or religion has a full understanding of, or monopoly on, the truth. God’s love extends to everyone, not just Christians, Muslims or Jews.
In regards to the thought that the Bible is not needed or should not be used in evangelism, I would have to point out Romans 10, and conclude that there is no other way to come to faith in Christ.
Lutek’s Quote-“It’s hard to believe that anyone could interpret Isaiah as referring to Jesus without the coaching of Christian theologians.” Response: Isaiah 53.
Lutek’s quote “To simply say that the Bible is the word of God, without explaining that, is meaningless rhetoric.
Is it words spoken by God? No.
Is it words dictated by God? No.
It is a record of thoughts and insights inspired by a desire to know God, that is, to know the truth of the ultimate nature of reality.” Response: John 1, 1 Cor 2:14
These verses address Most of what Lutek has brought up. One must first accept the inherency of scripture first of course for these verses to be able to address the issue.
Josh Mcdowell does a great job in regards to this, so I will use some of his works-
WHAT MAKES THE BIBLE SO SPECIAL?
Christianity believes and teaches that the Bible alone is the revealed Word of God. Even though it was written by men, the ultimate author was God Almighty. This claim was not invented by the Church, but is the claim the Bible makes for itself.
“The word of the Lord endures forever” (1 Peter 1:25, The Modern Language Bible). “All Scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16, MLB). “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:21, KJV).
Over 2,000 times in the Old Testament alone there are clauses such as, “And God spoke to Moses,” “the word of the Lord came unto Jonah,” and “God said.” Moreover, the Bible claims to be a record of the words and deeds of God, thus the Bible views itself as God’s Word.
The mere fact that the Bible claims to be the Word of God does not prove that it is such, for there are other books that make similar claims. The difference is that the Scriptures contain convincing evidence as being the Word of God.
One reason that the Bible is different from other books is its unity. Although this book was composed by men, its unity reveals the hand of the Almighty. The Bible was written over a period of about 1,500 years by more than forty different human authors. These authors came from a variety of backgrounds, including Joshua (a military general), Daniel (a prime minister), Peter (a fisherman), and Nehemiah (a cupbearer).
The authors of the various books wrote in different places, such as the wilderness (Moses), prison (Paul), exile on the Isle of Patmos (John). The biblical writings were composed on three different continents (Africa, Asia, and Europe), and in three different languages (Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek).
The contents of the Bible deal with many controversial subjects. Yet, the Bible is a unit. From beginning to end, there’s one unfolding story of God’s plan of salvation for mankind. This salvation is through the person of Jesus Christ (John 14:6). Jesus Himself testified that He was the theme of the entire Bible.
“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. . . . For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?” (John 5:39, 46, 47, KJV).
In another place: “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself (Luke 24:27, KJV; see also Luke 24:44).
The Old Testament is the preparation (Isaiah 40:3). The Gospels are the manifestation (John 1:29). The Book of Acts is the propagation (Acts 1:8). The Epistles give the explanation (Colossians 1:27). The Book of Revelation is the consummation (Revelation 1:7). The Bible is all about Jesus.
The entire Bible is a unity with each part needing the others to be complete. Dr. W. F. Albright puts it this way: “To the writers of the New Testament, the Hebrew Bible was Holy Scripture and they were the direct heirs of its prophets. It is, accordingly, quite impossible to understand the New Testament without recognizing that its purpose was to supplement and explain the Hebrew Bible.
“Any attempt to go back to the sources of Christianity without accepting the entire Bible as our guide is thus doomed to failure” (cited by Roger T. Forster and V. Paul Marston, That’s a Good Question, p. 67).
Lest anyone think this isn’t something marvelous, we’d like to give you this challenge. Find ten people from your local area having similar backgrounds, who speak the same language, and all are from basically the same culture. Then separate them and ask them to write their opinion on only one controversial subject, such as the meaning of life.
When they have finished, compare the conclusions of these ten writers. Do they agree with each other? Of course not. But the Bible did not consist of merely ten authors, but forty. It was not written in one generation, but over a period of 1,500 years; not by authors with the same education, culture and language, but with vastly different education, many different cultures, from three continents and three different languages, and finally not just one subject but hundreds.
And yet the Bible is a unity. There is complete harmony, which cannot be explained by coincidence or collusion. The unity of the Bible is a strong argument in favor of its divine inspiration. The unity of the Scriptures is only one reason among many which supports the Bible’s claim to be the divine Word of God. Others which could be explained in detail are the testimony of the early church, the witness of history and archaeology, and the evidence of changed lives throughout the centuries, to name but a few.
These factors led the great archaeologist, W. F. Albright, to conclude, “The Bible towers in content above all earlier religious literature; and it towers just as impressively over all subsequent literature in the direct simplicity of its message and the catholicity of its appeal to men of all lands and times” (The Christian Century, November 1958).
The Bible is special. It is unique. No other book has any such credentials. No other book even comes close. “England has two books, the Bible and Shakespeare. England made Shakespeare, but the Bible made England” (Victor Hugo, cited by Mead. Encyclopedia of Religious Quotations, p. 49).
In regards to differentiating between Jesus, The Christ, and God. I am having trouble following where you are going with that thought, could you potentially elaborate?
John 1 and 1 Cor 2:14 do not in any way prove or even claim that the bible is “the word of God” according to your interpretation of that phrase.
The gospel of John was greatly influenced by the Paulist theology which had developed in those 50 or so years between the crucifixion and the time of its writing 15 or 20 years after the death of Paul. I suspect that Paul himself would be annoyed if he read it.
Jesus never claimed to be God, by the way. Even in the gospel of John the closest he comes to that is identifying himself spiritually with the Father.
1 Cor 2:14 simply points out the difference between human nature and spiritual nature.
“The word of the Lord” is not the bible.
“All scripture” is not the bible.
Prophecy is not the bible.
You claim, in effect, that “The bible is the word of God because it says so in the bible.”
Firstly, it doesn’t say so anywhere in the bible.
Secondly, that argument is meaningless. It is circular reasoning.
As for elaborating on differentiating between Jesus, The Christ, and God, I’ve done that about as well as I can in the forum’s theology section, under “The Beginning of Wisdom…”.
All this brings us back to some of the earlier posts on this thread: Instead of memorizing biblical verses and studying theological arguments, shut off the noise in your mind, and just listen. Shutting off the noise is extremely difficult and takes a lot of effort, but with practice you can do it. Then you’ll be able to hear God “speaking” to you through your holy spirit. Be on guard though, that you’re not listening to your physical, human nature rather than your spiritual nature.
The bible is full of wonderful wisdom and knowledge, but it must be read the right way, beginning with giving up preconceptions of complete inerrancy and verbatim divine inspiration. I could sit at this keyboard for days on end debating individual biblical verses with you, but unless you take that first step you still won’t see the overall picture – and yes, there is one, even bigger and more wonderful than the one you currently cling to.
Re Isaiah 53:
http://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suffering-servant-isaiah-53/
Another good way to prove the Bible’s authority IMO is the fulfilled prophecies of scripture:
Josh Mcdowell again does a good job in the following:
WHY DO CHRISTIANS APPEAL TO FULFILLED PROPHECIES TO PROVE THE BIBLE IS GOD’S WORD?
Believers in Jesus Christ are constantly being asked why they believe the Bible to be inspired, and a common response is because of fulfilled prophecy. The argument from fulfilled prophecy is one of the strongest imaginable.
The apostle Peter, after testifying that he had seen Jesus Christ in all His glory, said, “And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts” (II Peter 1:19, NASB). Peter here is appealing to fulfilled prophecy as a witness to the truth of the Scriptures.
The Bible itself gives the purpose of prophecy, “Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done… ” (Isaiah 46:9, 10, NASB).
“I declared the former things long ago and they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.… Therefore I declared them to you long ago, before they took place I proclaimed them to you, lest you should say, ‘My idol has done them, and my graven image and my molten image have commanded them’” (Isaiah 48:3, 5, NASB).
The New Testament spoke of the coming of Jesus Christ, “Which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures” (Romans 1:1–4, RSV).
The testimony of the Scriptures is that the purpose of prophecy is to let us know that God exists and that He has a plan for this world. By the foretelling of persons, places, and events hundreds of years before their occurrence, the Bible demonstrates a knowledge of the future that is too specific to be labeled a good guess. By giving examples of fulfilled prophecy, the Scriptures give a strong testimony to their own inspiration.
An example of this would be the prophecy of King Cyrus (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1). The prophet Isaiah, writing about 700 b.c., predicts Cyrus by name as the king who will say to Jerusalem that it shall be built and that the temple foundation shall be laid.
At the time of Isaiah’s writing, the city of Jerusalem was fully built and the entire temple was standing. Not until more than 100 years later would the city and temple be destroyed by King Nebuchadnezzar in 586 b.c.
After Jerusalem was taken by the Babylonians, it was conquered by the Persians in about 539 b.c. Shortly after that, a Persian king named Cyrus gave the decree to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. This was around 160 years after the prophecy of Isaiah!
Thus Isaiah predicted that a man named Cyrus, who would not be born for about 100 years, would give the command to rebuild the temple which was still standing in Isaiah’s day and would not be destroyed for more than 100 years. This prophecy is truly amazing, but it is not isolated.
There are, in fact, literally hundreds of prophecies which predict future events. The idea that the fulfillment of the predictions is a result of coincidence or chance is absurd, in light of the evidence. God has given sufficient evidence of His existence and of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures by means of fulfilled prophecy.
ADDITIONAL REFERENCE SOURCES
Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Moody Press, 1958 Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, vol. 1, ch. 9, rev. ed., Here’s Life Publishers, 1979
In regards to the old testament killings, It isn’t Man’s place to declare something necessarily good or bad. God clearly states that all of our righteous deeds are as filthy rags before him (Isaiah 64:6). So we do not have a full understanding or grasp of what good and bad is. God ultimately decides.
I think we limit God to our own understanding of what we determine good and bad to be. God is not limited by us. God does not operate by karmic design. He is the author of life and so therefore he has the authority to take life. Life is God’s to take (human life. God gave man charge of the earth and animals) So this is why one human taking another humans life is wrong. But God does allow and demand instances for human life to be taken, and he does it for the best interests of humanity and his chosen people ultimately.
God has the right to do what he wants with anyone he wants. (Isaiah 64:8, Romans 9:20, Jeremiah 18:6, Isaiah 29:16)
Think of king Ahab. God describes him as the most evil King (1 kings 16:30) and yet God uses him to win victory for Israel to show his Glory. (1 Kings 20:13) Everything is about God. Everything points to God.
Same could be said about the apostle Paul. A murderer and “Chief of Sinners”.
In the reverse, you have Job’s friends who all seem to make the same assertions of what people today do of what is good and what is bad, yet God rebukes them. The pharisees followed the law and were probably “good” people, yet they failed to recognize Jesus and their ultimate need for him.
Ultimately, God’s ways and thoughts are higher then our ways and thoughts. (Isaiah 55:9, Romans 11:33-36)
Also I find this interesting knowledge as well :
Unlike us, God knows the future. God knew what the results would be if Israel did not completely eradicate the Amalekites. If Israel did not carry out God’s orders, the Amalekites would come back to “haunt” the Israelites again and again. Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king Agag (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously Saul was lying…just a couple of decades later there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men’s families captive (1 Samuel 30:1-2). After David and his men attacked the Amalekites and rescued their families, 400 Amalekites escaped. If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred. Several hundred years later, a descendant of Agag, Haman, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated (see the book of Esther). So, Saul’s incomplete obedience almost resulted in Israel’s destruction. God knew this would occur, so He ordered the extermination of the Amalekites ahead of time.
In regard to the Canaanites, God commanded, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:16-18). The Israelites failed in this mission as well, and exactly what God said would happen occurred (Judges 2:1-3; 1 Kings 11:5; 14:24; 2 Kings 16:3-4). God did not order the extermination of these people to be cruel, but rather to prevent even greater evil from occurring in the future.
Probably the most difficult part of these commands from God is that God ordered the death of children and infants as well. Why would God order the death of innocent children? (1) Children are not innocent (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). (2) These children would have likely grown up as adherents to the evil religions and practices of their parents. (3) By ending their lives as children, God enabled them to have entrance into Heaven. A strong argument can be made that all children who die are accepted into Heaven by the grace and mercy of God (2 Samuel 12:22-23; Mark 10:14-15; Matthew 18:2-4).
Below are three posts, from many many similar posts by journalists writing for The Times of Israel. Notice the rhetoric:
Title: “APPEAL TO ALL JEWRY: “WAKE UP””
The very reason that the nations of the world have historically risen against the Jewish people is for this G-d given gift of intelligence – of being a light unto the nations – “אור לגוים”. They know we possess G-d given powers and want to exterminate us, as we pose a threat to their inferiority.
Title: “Striking While Hot”
“The Netziv on Deuteronmy 1:2 explains that at the time of the Exodus, the nations of the world were terrified of Israel. They had all heard of the ten plagues, the parting of the sea and the miraculous and complete destruction of the armed forces of the Egyptian Empire, the mightiest nation on the planet. The countries on the border of Canaan, specifically the nation of Seir on the southern border, would have scattered out of the way to let the Children of Israel cross through their territory. However, forty years later, Israel was no longer feared. Seir stood fearlessly in the path of Israel. Israel had to take the long road. They needed to march all the way around, eastward and northward and then to head back west towards the Jordan River and only then start their long withheld conquest of the land. May our leadership and our soldiers strike well, strike hard, strike fast, and may all enemies of our people be destroyed quickly and thoroughly. Shabbat Shalom.”
Title: “Can empathy prolong and intensify human suffering”
Empathy is a crucial human emotion. It’s a prerequisite to any meaningful and lasting human collaboration. But can empathy, in certain situations, actually prolong and intensify human suffering? Sadly I’m afraid the answer is yes…. However, if we use the tremendous empathy we feel, when we see such painful and tragic images, to further our resolve to rid the Palestinians (and the world for that matter) of organizations such as Hamas, then it will serve as the powerful and positive emotion that it is.”
The Jews are hated by their inferiors — every other nation
Using the Exodus story to call for shock and awe war, Shabbat Shalom
The double speak of war being an act of empathy
I share these quotes with you Dominic, in the hope that they will help you to hear yourself when you write:
“Why would God order the death of innocent children? (1) Children are not innocent (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). (2) These children would have likely grown up as adherents to the evil religions and practices of their parents. (3) By ending their lives as children, God enabled them to have entrance into Heaven.”
Attitude 1
“Why would God order the death of innocent children? (1) Children are not innocent (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). (2) These children would have likely grown up as adherents to the evil religions and practices of their parents”
Attitude 2
“Record of a shooting
Watchtower
‘It’s a little girl. She’s running defensively eastward’
Operations room
‘Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?’
Watchtower
‘A girl of about 10, she’s behind the embankment, scared to death’
Captain R (after killing the girl)
‘Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed’
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel
Same attitudes.
Any children born in this day and age will grow up influenced not only by their parents, but to a much greater degree by the evils of contemporary society, which are now spread so quickly by our almost instantaneous communications. We see so many children of godly, fundamentalist Christians falling into the evil ways of this world. By your reasoning, ending their lives as children would enable them to have entrance into Heaven. If we don’t have the courage to kill them ourselves, we should at least pray constantly that God does the dirty deed for us.
Understanding just the concept of God is challenging enough. Trying to ‘explain’ God often leads to absurdity.
There is a lot there in all the commentary posted. You have elected to just cherry pick one thing. What about all the evidence that has been presented? As with me, you fail to see the evidence before you. What happened to me really happened, so you can accept it or you can rationalize it with all kinds of what ifs and maybes. But if you search the evidence with a mind that can accept that the majority of what is explained in Christianity is true, you will see that it leads to a rational faith like no other. You rarely quote scripture to counter or for that matter any of the information contained in religious documents. Whats up with that?
“I could sit at this keyboard for days on end debating individual biblical verses with you, but unless you take that first step you still won’t see the overall picture…”
You want scripture quoted?
– Matt. 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
– Matt. 13:13 Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
– Tao Te Ching, ch. 19:
He who knows, does not speak.
He who speaks, does not know.
I took the first step 26 years ago, and it would seem that the issue of abortion kind of falls into the arguments I am hearing related to Dominic’s thoughts. I would say the quotes from Matthew would refer to you as the way I intepret the evidence and I am guessing Tao and I would not get along that well, because I have the gift of gab or at least I think it is a gift. I will admit, many do not see it as a gift.
So I am taking that troubleunderfoot does not accept any specialness of the jewish people or the jewish state? And it sounds like you feel that Dominics statement on the children would coinside with with the current mentality of the Jews. What do you think about the abortion issue? Don’t you kind of see a similar pattern as that of the early Old Testament period? Do you agree that it is all about how you want to look at the evidence and everything is polar?
“So I am taking that troubleunderfoot does not accept any specialness of the jewish people or the jewish state?”
“The state of Israel does not represent Jews or Judaism” True Torah Jews.
Which Jewish state? You mean that zionist state, full of Europeans, which many orthodox Jews oppose:
“The Spinker Rebbe comments: “We must not force the end, arise on our own and seek power; nor may we take the Holy Land, emigrate to it and rule over it until the king moshiach comes,”
http://www.truetorahjews.org/spink
But still, you ask a question that deserves an answer. Let me think, a special people, superior to other races, with a “divine mission”, unfairly persecuted, “theologically justified” in violence, war and genocide against their neighbors – you mean like Hitler’s Aryan master race. That kind of Nazi special? I have to tell you, I can live without it. How about you?
“And it sounds like you feel that Dominics statement on the children would coinside with with the current mentality of the Jews. What do you think about the abortion issue?”
I think the abortion issue is a distraction from the issue being discussed, which is theological fascism and genocide, actions that are completely immoral but which religious apologists attempt to justify by using the name of God and their religious book. That’s the issue, is God a genocidal tyrant or not? if we can stick to that issue I’m interested to know what you think.
Lutek & Trouble:
You both are putting Human thoughts and reasoning about morality and what is ultimately right and wrong above everything.
If you did not understand that from the point I was trying to make, then you have missed everything.
There is a ultimate truth. The Bible does indeed claim to be that truth. How that was missed in my previous post I fail to understand.
SO…. Lutek, That is where the the debate needs to start in my estimation. Not starting from your own human reasoning, but from a higher power. The question is what is ultimate truth and how do we know it. The Bible claims it, either accept it and we will use the Bible then as a grounds for this argument or prove that the Bible is not the inherent word of God That is TRUTH.
You are using the same argument that all Jehova’s witnesses use when they claim that Jesus is not God. So I will Address that and prove that erroneous fallacy.
In John 18:5-6 Jesus sais “I AM he” and The power of his declaration of BEING GOD brought them to their knees… This clearly coincides with Exodus 3 when God appeared to Moses and Declared that his NAME was “I AM who I AM”
Do you REALLY think that that is not by design??? Is this not also a very clear foreshadowing of the future (Romans 14:11, and Philliapians 2:10-11) Please oh please see how the Bible is so intricately intertwined and full of the The masters handiwork… Everything, all of life’s questions are all within this book, not other sources, if one but will accept them, pray over them, and get the Lord’s guidance… This is why I brought up 1 Cor 2:14, Which you took EXTREMELY out of context in the way I meant it to be discerned, which the verse itself explains I might begrudgingly add…
John 8:24 after he tells them I am not of this world.
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins.” ( he is not in the original). He is communicating to them he is the same I AM that Moses met at the burning bush which commissioned him.
IS THAT NOT ENOUGH?!? I will go on
Titus 2:13- Clearly Links Jesus as God
If that is not enough, then how about the I use the clearest reasoning possible: Revaltion 1:8, 2:8, 21:6-7, and 22 12-16 CLEARLY link JESUS as being the ALPHA and OMEGA, THE BEGINNING and THE END.
And who does the Lord God in the Old Testament claim to be??? Isaiah 41:4, and Isaiah 48: 12… Just read it
So is Jesus a liar??? Or is he God???
I have already asserted why The Bible can be taken as a WHOLE and is reliable, which you failed, NAY, did not even attempt to debate… You got up on your high horse and assumed you were/are right in your HUMAN reasoning.
The Verses I previously outlined described how human reasoning is faulty and in error, yet you tried to make a counter argument asserting the same thing in essence.
The problem with what you did is simple, and I will say it again- You claim that the Bible is NOT the TRUTH, which IT DOES claim to be- I gave numerous verses that showed this claim, so you obviously neglected or did not care to do your research- SHAME ON YOU. So either prove that the Bible is not the whole Truth as it CLAIMS TO BE, or your arguments are meaningless. And this is not me who is saying your arguments are meaningless, this is the Bible (GOD) who is making this claim….
To say that Prophecy does not prove anything is absurd and naive. Plain and simple. You may also note that prophecy was not my whole argument for the Bible’s inherency.
As for your Citation text- EXTREMELY WELL WRITTEN. I agree with it entirely on it’s point that it addresses the nation Israel. However, it is common knowledge that the MANY Bible passages have twofold meanings AND that The Nation of Israel is used as a idiom for multiple facets… This is clearly seen in ROMANS 9-11, where modern dispensationalism has found its roots. Without Understanding Romans 9-11 in such a manner, one is entirely lost, which I would then use your own sources words as my own in explaining just how intimate the relationship between THE WHOLE BIBLE (Old and New testament) is…. Your Source therefore shows how complimentary The Bible works as a whole, and how one needs the New Testament to explain the old, and the Old testament to verify the New.
So to be clear, your source is entirely CORRECT in what it asserts, but is Entirely wrong in what it denies… This should be easily identified and common sense.
Dominic, you ask for proof that the Bible is not the inherent word of God. I refer you to your own argument, for you ask us to omit reason and morality as elements for consideration. Under what influence have you come to require such a dark sacrifice?
Human reasoning and Morality is corrupted by the fall and sin. The Bible makes this clear.
I gave numerous evidences for the validity of the Bible in its entirety. You are still appealing to your own reasoning. For your sake I hope you can save yourself, which I already know the answer to, because the answer is in the Bible.
You have elevated yourself and what you perceive about things above truth.
Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” After he had said this, he went back outside to the Jews and told them, “I find no guilt in him. John 18:38
“I am the way the TRUTH and the light, No one comes to the father, but through me.” John 14:6
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 1:1-4
God is light. God ordered baby’s killed. God being the AUTHOR OF LIFE has the right to take life, since he made it.
If I build a bench I have the right to do with it what I want. It is my bench. If I choose to destroy it That is my prerogative. no one else has the right to destroy that bench, but if I told someone else to destroy my bench, they then have the right to do so.
“If I build a bench I have the right to do with it what I want. It is my bench. If I choose to destroy it That is my prerogative.”
This is the argument off the abortionist, complete with dehumanizing metaphors. Let us put the human back in:
“If I create an embryo I have the right to do with it what I want. it is mine. If I choose to destroy it that is my prerogative.”
No. God does not create so that He can murder. Did you lean this from the Bible? Then truly you have been deceived. That is what happens when you reject reason and morality.
I think it is safe to say if we were in Athens in New Testament times, Dominic would be Paul arguing against the gnostics, I would be converted to Paul’s thinking.
You mean the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers in Acts 17? They are quite different from the gnostics. Gnosticism doesn’t predate Christianity but rather emerged as part of the early church. Valentinus (100 – 160 AD) the Christian gnostic theologian was a candidate for the bishop of Rome.
The belief in the unknown God has a long tradition, and one that has certainly been embraced to Christian theologians. The most famous treatise on the subject was De Docta Ignorantia, (on Learned Ignorance) by Nicholas of Cusa. Well worth reading.
I believe Mr. Costanzo was referring to Greece as a whole.
Writers of the New Testament (the apostles) condemned the Gnostic teachings. There are numerous epistles that address this ancient heresy. Paul emphasized a wisdom and knowledge that comes from God and does not concern itself with idle speculations, angelic visitations, fables, and a amoral lifestyle (Col. 2:8-23; 1 Tim. 1:4; 2 Tim. 2:16-19; Titus 1:10-16). Paul addresses the Gnostic influences in portions of Colossians as a direct threat to Christ being our salvation and His being sufficient in all things. To overcome the indulgences of the flesh (the “Colossian Heresy” ) the Gnostics taught a false philosophy, which denied the all-sufficiency and pre-eminence of Jesus Christ (Col. 2:8). When he wrote that “in him dwells All the fullness of the deity bodily” it was a rebuttal against the Gnostics.
Dominic, you are the one claiming that the Bible is the “inherent word of God” and the “ultimate truth”, so it is up to you to back up your claim with proof. For all the scriptures you quoted, you still haven’t done that logically.
“One must first accept the inherency [sic] of scripture first of course for these verses to be able to address the issue.” That’s exactly the problem with your purported proofs.
You disparage human thoughts and reasoning. Do you not see the intellect as a divine gift, or as that divine image of Genesis 1:26?
How do you suppose the Bible came to be the way it is today? Certainly, its authors were inspired by God, as are all of us who post here; but that inspiration leads to thoughts and reasoning, of course! Are the thoughts and reasoning that you yourself present, somehow inhuman or superhuman? I’m guessing they’re just as subject to error as anyone else’s, especially when ego and judgmentalism get in the way.
You should read Karen Armstrong’s “A History of God.” It contains words “of God” and was certainly inspired by God. I think it will enlighten you as to how various theologies, including the package known as the Bible, developed, and the futility and danger of trying to capture the boundless, ineffable and eternal with words.
Is there a Bible verse about the worst to the best person ?