We are looking at several passages that are often used to defend the right of pastors to get paid. Frankly, I am not exactly against pastors getting paid. What I am against is the use of Scripture as a defense for the practice, especially when these passages are used to lay burdens of guilt on others if they don’t give more, tithe more, and “joyfully” sacrifice more.
We have looked previously at the Levitical Priesthood and the statement in Acts 20:35 that it is more blessed to give than to receive. Today we are going to look at the statement in 1 Corinthians 9 where Paul quotes from Jewish law: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.”
First Corinthians 9 is about Apostolic ministry
First Corinthians 9 contains Paul’s defense of his right as an apostle to receive money from the people he minister among, but his refusal to do so in spite of his rights. Paul compares that apostolic ministry to soldiers who go to war and workers who tend fields. They enjoy the fruits of their labors, argues Paul, and so also should an apostle.
Paul supports his case with a quotation from Deuteronomy 25:4 about not muzzling an ox while it treads out the grain (9:9-10), and also mentions the biblical precedent of the priests serving in the temple who get to partake of the offerings and sacrifices that are brought in (9:13-14). In such ways, Paul clearly defends his right to receive payment for his work as an apostle. He goes on, however, to explain why he has given up this right so as not to be a stumbling block to anyone (9:15-18).
Apostles are not the same as Pastors
So does this passage mean that pastors of a local church have the right to take a salary? Not quite.
Paul is only defending the right of apostles to receive income from the people among whom they labor. An apostle is someone who does not stay in one area, but travels from town to town, carrying the message of the Gospel with them to new and unreached areas. They plant the seeds of the Gospel, and encourage initial spiritual growth among those who believe, and then after a while—anywhere from a few days to a few years—move on to a new location to spread the Gospel elsewhere.
That Paul is clearly talking about traveling apostolic teachers is evidenced not only by his frequent references to “apostles” throughout the passage, but also the statements in verses 5 and 7 about taking a believing wife along with them, and going off to war. With such images, Paul shows he is talking about the teacher who travels away from his home and place of employment to go serve and teach in other cities and towns.
The Imagery of the Oxen
Even the image of a man who plants a vineyard and the oxen who treads out the grain support this perspective. Most often, we read these verses as talking about a vineyard owner and an oxen owner, and how the vineyard owner is the one who plants the vineyard and enjoys its harvest, and the oxen owner is the one who should not muzzle the ox, but let it eat some grain at the mill. This, however, does not reflect what actually happened in the culture, or what these images mean.
First, a vineyard owner rarely planted his own vineyard. Rather, he would hire people to plant and tend the vines for him. As part of their pay, these hired laborers were allowed to eat of the grapes while they pruned and harvested.
Similarly, no oxen owner would ever muzzle his own oxen while it was treading out the grain. This would be like a modern day farmer allowing his tractor to run out of gas.
So Deuteronomy 25:4 refers to the scenario of a man who borrows his neighbor’s oxen. In such a case, the man should not try to boost his own profits by muzzling his neighbor’s oxen so they cannot eat while treading out the grain. This is cruel to the oxen, and does not show appreciation to the man who owns the oxen.
Again, to use modern farming imagery, this would be like borrowing your neighbor’s tractor, using it all day, and then returning it with an empty gas tank. Such things should not happen.
Paul then is comparing himself (and all apostles) to a borrowed oxen, a traveling soldier, or someone who tends another man’s field.
To take the Gospel to other areas, an apostle must leave their house and job, and travel to other areas where they must usually depend on the hospitality and provision of others. Paul, however, as a tentmaker, had a profession which travelled with him, or at least allowed himself to get work with other tentmakers in the various cities he traveled to (cf. Acts 18:1-3). Not all apostles enjoyed such flexibility with their trade, and so they were dependent upon others to provide for their needs while they travelled away from home.
Nevertheless, when they returned home, to their families and to their jobs, they no longer depended on others, but labored with their own hands to provide for their needs. This, as we have seen, was Paul’s instructions to the Ephesian elders who stayed in Ephesus, and, we presume, the same instructions he gave to all church elders and leaders everywhere he went.
So 1 Corinthians 9 cannot be used by pastors to defend the practice of receiving a salary. It is talking about traveling missionaries and apostolic leaders who have left their home and jobs to teach and support other Christians in other towns. Since they will typically only be in a city or town for a few weeks or months, they are dependent upon the hospitality of the people in that city or town. Ideally, even these spiritual leaders should have “travelling professions” if possible, so like Paul, they do not have to depend on the financial aid of other people either.
Pastors, however, stay in one area, and Paul’s instruction to them is that they work hard with their hands, providing for themselves, their families, and the weaker members of the church with the income they receive from their trade.
Brad Doskocil on Facebook says
The ox is slow but the earth is patient!
Sam says
What do you think Jeremy – Has the church created a position, role or “office” titled pastor that bears only a faint resemblance to the elders mentioned in the New Testament? Perhaps the reason we have to stretch to come up with Scriptures that support paying a pastor is because the concept of pastor as we know it did not exist in the first century, and the concept of paying elders was absent.
What was the role of those elders? Compare that to the job duties laid out by most churches for their pastors. From whence came all the extra stuff? Are not our pastors heads of the organization/institution, much like a CEO is of a company? Has not the church created a new position and that is why we can find scant Scriptural support for paying the people who hold that position? For that matter, can we find much Scriptural backing for the current position of pastor?
Jeremy Myers says
Sam,
Yes, I do think we have “invented” the role of pastor, but it has been 1700 years in evolution. I do think it has some roots in the Jewish priesthood, and also in the priestly class of pagan religions, and then throw in some entrepreneur, politician, king, CEO, office manager, sports coach, and motivational speaker, and we have something close to the pastor of today.
Truthfully, if a church thinks they need someone like that to help them be the church, and they want to pay them for it, I guess I’m fine with it. Just don’t call them “pastor.” Call them the Church Manager, or the Church President, or the Church Organizer, or whatever. And also make sure that everybody knows that he/she is not there to do the ministry for them, but to lead and organize them for ministry.
Sam says
We think alike on this. I should have qualified my statement about paying elders with the words “a salary”.
For at least ten years I volunteered at least twenty hours a week at the church we attended. I accepted no payment. My main reason? The congregation viewed themselves as the employer and those being paid as their employees, employees who should do what they demanded.
On several occasions church people “told” (a nice word for ordered) me to do something. I told them I didn’t think it was necessary or that I didn’t have time, to which they indignantly replied “we’re paying you to do that” (which meant they thought the church was paying me to do whatever they thought they wanted done). I assured them I was not paid and never had been and would be unable to do what they were telling me to do.
Pastor friends tell me this happens to them all the time. Perhaps there is a very good reason Jesus did not set up churches as we know them, complete with paid pastors, pastors paid to take care of those paying their salaries.
Jeremy Myers says
I was once scolded by a lady in my church when I was not doing what she wanted that I better do it, because I “worked for her.” Ironically, she later went on to say that she didn’t tithe to the church either…
On one sense, of course, she is right. The leaders are to serve the people in their care. But I don’t think this means that they get to order the leaders around.
Gigi says
Hi Sam,
Just to add to your comment, Ephesians 4:11-And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.
In a nut shell, Pastors are as significant as Apostles. Pastors are a part of the 5 fold ministry; Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.
We have not invented the Pastors, but God has put them in place. They are overseers of the church and they teach the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now to what extent do you believe a Pastor should be paid, well the word of God says that the one who receives the word should share all good things to the one who teaches. Galatians 6:6-Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches.
God wants you to give from your heart not by compulsion or force. 2 Corinthians 9:7-Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
I cannot speak for everyone but there are Pastors who travel and others who stay and teach in the community and throughout their locality. Please pray for all of God’s leaders for this is what he requires…Ministry is a job…a job from God.
24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen Jude 1:24-25
God Bless
Pastor McGuire says
It is a blessing to see that someone has chosen to look at the Word of God without adding their own spin!
Tomás Enrique Dozier says
Hi Gigi (and others reading this)
Thanks for your comment. I wanted to ask you with the intention of deeper reflection the following questions:
1. In Ephesians 4:11 are these titles to be used by people or are they ministries imparted by the Holy Spirit to be used for the edification and unity of the Church? What I mean to ask is it something that we do or is it meant to be a title that is to be used and then we do?
2. Do we see the title of “pastor” being used anywhere in the Bible, Old or New Testament?
3. Please read 1 and 2 Thess about the distinction of between work and sharing the Good News. Does Paul make a distinction between these two things? Please also read Acts 20:33-35.
4. Jesus reminds us in Matthew 10:8 that what has freely been given to us (the Good News) we are to freely give. How do you think this relates to today and how we now expect to pay those in service and we expect to be paid when we are “in service”? Can you imagine Jesus expecting to be paid for his service? Or passing around a basket before the Sermon on the Mount to be used for himself?
5. If we are His disciples and He did not accept money from others for His work then why are we doing thing?
6. Notice in 2 Cor. 11:8 that when Paul received a ONE time and non-solicited or even desired donation from the poor Macedonia church (the Phillipians) he says that he was “robbing” from them. If Paul did not depend upon solicited support, why do we?
In general I believe the Enemy is content when we monetarize ministry and we give titles because we delegate the great commission that is for ALL believers to a specific few who have the titles thus reducing our effectiveness. Also, we make our “service” and calling conditional upon payment. So although I might feel called to a particular community as a “pastor” but they are not willing or capable of paying what I need to support my family I will not choose to work there. Thus the current model means that the need for money supersedes the call of God in ministry which we never see in Scripture. Is this critique valid for our current context? Do you think it is not a valid evaluation?
Blessings in Christ, Tomás
Donato G. Costes says
I don’t buy the the principle that we “pay salary” to a Pastor. All that the scripture require is “there will be food in my house”. That “food” refers to what the minister needs: Food, clothing, cost of education for his children, and all the basic things that the congregation enjoys in their life. The problem with the above article is that you seem to require the Pastor to earn for himself and then serve the needs of the Church! Is that fair? If a Pastor is full time ministering for the congregation he serves, how could he find time to earn a living?
Kimberly Taylor says
Please explain the specific roles of an elder and a “pastor of today” and specifically explain how you think they differ. Yes there are pastors out there that are not operating as they should however I personally I feel as though you are using the negative feelings you have for certain pastors and applying them to how you see each and every one of them. I believe Pastor C had it correct in regardsto the pastor being synonymous to the elder.
Donato G. Costes says
The Pastor is an elder in the church, however most Pastors do full time ministering to the “demands” of the congregation.
Keith Giles says
Great article! Totally agree. Especially when you take into account that, historically, the NT church did not mandate a tithe until well into the 7th Century (around 770 AD under Charlemagne).
The money the church received was primarily used to care for the poor among them, not to provide a salary to teachers/preachers.
kg
Jeremy Myers says
Keith,
I had forgotten that about the tithe. Thanks for the reminder. I have been enjoying your series on the Organic Church recently. Great articles!
Mike says
Are you Foolish? Do you not know scripture?
1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture says, “YOU ARE NOT TO MUZZLE THE OX WHILE IT IS TREADING OUT THE GRAIN;” and the workman deserves his pay.
Notice how theses two concepts are linked together??????
or This
1Co 9:9 For in the Law of Moses it is written, “THOU SHALT NOT MUZZLE AN OX WHILE IT IS TREADING OUT THE GRAIN.”
1Co 9:10 Is God simply thinking about the oxen? Or is it really in our interest that He speaks? Of course, it was written in our interest, because it is His will that when a plough-man ploughs, and a thresher threshes, it should be in the hope of sharing that which comes as the result.
1Co 9:11 If it is we who sowed the spiritual grain in you, is it a great thing that we should reap a temporal harvest from you?
1Co 9:12 If other teachers possess that right over you, do not we possess it much more? Yet we have not availed ourselves of the right, but we patiently endure all things rather than hinder in the least degree the progress of the Good News of the Christ.
1Co 9:13 Do you not know that those who perform the sacred rites have their food from the sacred place, and that those who serve at the altar all alike share with the altar?
1Co 9:14 In the same way the Lord also directed those who proclaim the Good News to maintain themselves by the Good News.
1Co 9:15 But I, for my part, have not used, and do not use, my full rights in any of these things. Nor do I now write with that object so far as I myself am concerned, for I would rather die than have anybody make this boast of mine an empty one.
1Co 9:16 If I go on preaching the Good News, that is nothing for me to boast of; for the necessity is imposed upon me; and alas for me, if I fail to preach it!
1Co 9:17 And if I preach willingly, I receive my wages; but if against my will, a stewardship has nevertheless been entrusted to me.
1Co 9:18 What are my wages then? The very fact that the Good News which I preach will cost my hearers nothing, so that I cannot be charged with abuse of my privileges as a Christian preacher.
Notice How the Plowman and the Thresher have a share in the value of the Harvest???????
Verse 9: 11,12,13 busts your argument wide open “If other teachers possess that right over you, do not we possess it much more?….”
Other teachers? Pastors? Traveling Missionaries? they are all included here. Or do the Priests not partake of the offering????
Pastors deserve to be Paid, but if they do not Work then Fire them and find one that will. How much the deserve is another question.
Sam says
Mike, carefully reread the post and the comments above. You’re missing the point of what they’re saying. Paul was not their “pastor”, as that term is used today. It’s easy to read into these passages and try to make them say what we want them to say and what someone else has told us they say.
Jeremy Myers says
Thanks, Sam. You read you mind.
Mike, I agree with Sam’s comment. I think you missed the point. And I did try to explain what 1 Cor 9:9 means in context.
Scott Johnson on Facebook says
I enjoy reading your posts because I have to read them carefully and think. Thanks for exercising my brain!
Jeremy Myers says
Brain exercise is good!
Pastor C says
Did you read1 Timothy 5:16-18 it is clearly referring to elders not apostles the question is not about paying a salary but rather honoring those who serve in the house of God. Apostles today are ministry gifts to the Body of Christ but elders are leaders in the church. Thus there is also a distinction between church governance which was initiated by the apostles. In acts 6 it is the apostles that established the function of elders and deacons because of the growth of the church. So these letters were written to the church leadership (Elders and believers) on how they were to conduct the affairs of the church and how they should compensate those leaders who taught and preached the Word of God.. By the way pastor and elder are somewhat synonymous because that is what elders do pastor the flock of God.
Jeremy Myers says
Hmm. No, I have never read 1 Timothy 5:16-18…
Kimberly Taylor says
I definitely agree with you!
Martin says
PLEASE READ YOUR BIBLE WELL. A PASTOR IS A MINISTRY GIFT, HOW IN THE WORLD COULD IT HAVE BEEN INVENTED BY PEOPLE?
Jeremy Myers says
I do read my Bible. Please do not write comments in ALL CAPS. It is considered yelling online. Unless… are you trying to yell at me?
I fully believe in the spiritual gift of “pastor.” It is all the trappings and money and power that has been added to it by men that I have trouble with.
Martin says
Sorry, i wasn’t yelling. didn’t realize that it was all CAPS. My apologies. I understand that some use that office for personal gains but there is the genuine office of a pastor, which is so vital to the body of Christ. One that has a true pastors heart does not shepherd the flock for material gains. If they do, they will stand before God and give account. The bible does instruct the sheep to support the pastor (not just apostles like someone commented) – 1 Tim 2:17, Gal 6:6. It;s not easy to be a pastor….. I know cos i am close to one
Jeremy Myers says
Thanks. Yes, I believe I have the spiritual gift of “pastor-teacher” and I used to be a “full-time” paid pastor. It is a serious gifting with lots of responsibility!
Kimberly Taylor says
I understand But that could be anyone with any title. Even a so called apostle…
Kimberly Taylor says
1 Timowas thy 5:17-18 HCSB
The elders who are good leaders should be considered worthy of an ample honorarium, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says: Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain, and, the worker is worthy of his wages.
If it was only concerning apostles, why is it in these scriptures that they extend this right to all elders that are good leadErs? Also these titles: apostle, pastor, bishop, etc. Are not what is important here. The meat of the scripture is the following:
1 Corinthians 9
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should earn their living by the gospel (APOSTLE OR NOT)
apostle Sam says
bless you Kim, if i SAW YOUR POST EARLIER I WOULD’T BOTHER POSTING
James A Dickson says
Doing some studying this morning, came across this article. I find it interesting that you are against the use of scripture for the defense of the practice of pastors on salary. But Paul used scripture to support the practice of paying those that preach the gospel and the elders in the church. Not only that but if we aren’t to look to scripture and use scripture to justify the manner in which we operate our churches what would you like us to use? The New York Times? For a blogger who wants to bring doctrine to life, its confusing you don’t want us to use scripture to justify our means of survival and ministry. For it is the scriptures that have caused us in ministry to lay our lives down, and work for little, for the sake of the gospel. Strange and imbalanced article…
apostle Sam says
Sir, you need to review your theology about the ox, muzzle, pay idea. You might be doing application with a slightly tinted approach. There is no rule to determine that Paul’s discussion was strictly apostolic. FYI he functioned in several offices at different times and occasions.
How does a non-bi-vocational pastor survive if he doesn’t get paid? If Paul used the scripture repeatedly to denote payment, why should pastor not use it to buttress his point. If the church janitor and secretary gets paid, how should the pastor live.
Pastors should receive stuff for their survival.
Could you please do a wider approach on this thought; the current one is too narrow
Jeremy Myers says
So you think that the churches Paul was writing to had janitors and secretaries?
I have widened my research quite a bit to come to the conclusion I have, and came to realize that the church the way it is today is not at all the way the church was in Paul’s day. You may want to widen your approach a bit, and not look only at the way “church” is done in buildings today.
And be careful about calling yourself an apostle as well…
Kathleen says
Thank you for this post. I am sick of Pastor fleecing the flock! Preaching and or teaching the Gospel is a privilege not a right to be paid for. It makes me mad when I hear preachers try to make people feel guilty for not giving. Using this statement and others like will you rob God? seriously! To many Men are pimping Christ for a price. I dare to say that if preaching was a non paid job, that there would not be many churches or pastors anymore.
Lanias says
My question is…is this saying it’s wrong to go to two different churches & get fed by two different pastors….
brentnz says
Cant see that would be an issue i belong to two churchs one fellowships during the morning on sunday and the other at night.I find it is heathy to mix with other denominations my identity is not in the church it is in Christ.Even if the word spoken conflicts we take it back to the holy spirit to reveal the truth he will reveal what is right scripture does not contradict.That is why we need to feed ourselves and study the word the holy spirit is incredible what he reveals when we ask him.brentnz
Ken says
Think about what it says
Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn
Ox only eat what he could eat that day
Ian says
Lately I’ve been wondering if giving to the church is equal to giving to God. I just cannot find anything in scripture that tells me to give to the church. However, I do find a lot of scriptures that tells me to feed His sheep , give alms, and love my fellow Christians, even enemies.
Lauren says
What about 1 Timothy 5:18, where he quotes this same verse from Deuteronomy not only in reference to traveling apostles but also to those who lead the local body?
Hayley Solich says
I find the whole conversation around money so interesting. Why is that when money is involved people get so hung up about it?
Imagine…a man comes to you with a physical ailment. Would you not do your best to meet his need? At the least praying for him. At the best, praying and attending to his physical need.
If a man comes to you homeless and hungry, would you not try to address his homelessness and hunger?
Both of these you would willingly give to…without expectation of labour.
Yet if your brother or sister, dedicates their workable hours to serving a community of believers and needs a payment to be able to sustain that work, suddenly people have a problem. Why? It involves money.
I think the question here is not should a pastor be paid, but rather, should we have so deep a love for money that we are unwilling to share this resource, without strings attached, with someone who has chosen to dedicate their time to serving.
I have volunteered my time in worship ministry, youth leadership, small group leadership, creative ministries, preaching, events management, evangelism and a whole load more to serve the church over three decades because people have this mindset. I have known full-time evangelistic paid ministry for only a brief 18 months period in that time. It has cost me dearly to volunteer and my four children have been the ones who have sacrificed alongside me while they watched their peers enjoy the benefits of their parent’s labours. They are the ones who will have little to inherit when I pass because I valued the Kingdom above all worldly possessions.
I never look to man for my supply, but to God. Having said that, it is always a joy when a church remembers that we have needs too and gives something, even $20 to cover the costs of our transport to the meeting.
I guess what I am saying is that we often get stuck in working out if something is biblically accurate, when the actual real issue we are having is right there under our noses. What is it in us that is being triggered by the thought of the other person receiving a financial reward from their labours for the kingdom? Is our love of money so deeply entrenched that we are unwilling to pay those who labour?
May I also point out that if we are going to compare ourselves to the Christian church of Paul’s day, then we must also realise that they were a group of Christians who had ‘all things in common’. This meant that they lived with shared resources, which meant that everyone was accommodated in their community and looked after. Our modern church certainly does not have this mindset, unfortunately. And if a pastor wasn’t paid, I very much doubt that everyone would be clothing, feeding, accommodating and sharing to cover all of their family’s needs.
Jeremy Myers says
You raise some legitimate points. And I could be persuaded on pragmatic reasons for why pastors should receive a salary. But this still doesn’t mean that pastors can quote this verse as justification for receiving a salary. When pastors do this, they are often trying to put a guilt trip on people to give to him, which is not good pastoral care.
Hayley Solich says
Agreed, that is, if they are using it as a guilt trip.
I just challenge any person on this page who has a ‘real job’ to consider if they would do that’real job’ if they were not paid? Would they do the really difficult parts of that job if they were not paid? Would they make themselves available 24/7, often leaving their social commitments and family members to respond to someone in crisis? Would they continuously put up with people’s backstabbing, groaning and moaning if they were not being paid?
Personally, I think that most pastors deserve a medal for what they put up with, for the very difficult job that they have to perform to the satisfaction of the people they are serving, I might add, and a wage to me values their contribution. There are only a small minority of pastors who are in it for themselves, yet it seems there is this desire to tar all with the same brush.
To be a pastor in today’s church, you need to be a counsellor, an administrator, a leader, a chauffeur, a children’s worker, a small group leader, a recovery program leader, a social program coordinator, have fiscal management skills, a social worker and also maintain a spiritual walk, whilst preparing sermons that will grow people’s spirituality. And if you are blessed with musical talent, often a worship leader to boot. Especially if you are in a smaller sized congregation.
It is interesting to note that my husband refuses to be a pastor, despite us both being called to ministry. Why? He understands the unreasonable demands of the job! Yet I live in hope that he will one day see the value. 🙂
Robin says
Love your balanced comments, and your love for the church, pastors and leaders as a whole. We need to see more of that.
If we truly love Jesus, we will do what He asks us to do in whatever capacity that is…paying the pastor, serving the church etc..
We must leave the heart of the pastor in the hand of the Father. If the pastor is not doing what he should and we have committed that to prayer, the Holy Spirit will show us what to do. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. He is our Comforter, our Leader and our Guide. It does not take Him by surprise when things are not as they should be. But, He has an answer for us, if we trust His direction with our hearts and our money.
Bob says
Elders or πρεσβύτερος presbuteros and their roles are described in the pastoral epistles. (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus) The preaching/teaching elders definitely are owed a wage for their labor. The word pastor comes from the Greek word ποιμήν poimén. It means shepherd. It was used in the new testament in regards to the preaching/teaching elders. (Eph 4:11) They are under-shepherds to Christ. Tithing is a different issue altogether. Tithing is for ancient Jews, under the old covenant, during the temple system. New Testament believers are to prayerfully consider what to give then do so joyfully and in secret. Some people’s giving far exceeds 10% while others barely give 1%. We are to be financially responsible, pay our debts, take care of our families, provide an inheritance, and after all of that give joyfully. If you won’t, then you haven’t understood what money is for, or who true wealth is from.
Austin Munkondya says
I am called a Pastor and I minister away from my home, but I work hard to shepherd the sheep in the church for eternal kingdom, don’t I deserve to eat from the alter? Should I be muzzled? Should I make only income for an Apostle? Is that what you mean? If no Apostle but have other Ministers and ministries which are not Apostles how would you relate to that?