I sometimes hear pastors and teachers say that Jesus talked about hell more than heaven, and so we should do the same in our evangelism.
In other words, it is is often suggested that Jesus “scared” people into the kingdom. He threatened people with hell if they didn’t believe in Him, and so in our evangelism, we are perfectly justified in using threats of burning forever in hell and other similar scare tactics to get people into the Kingdom of God as well.
And it isn’t just the wacko fringe Christians who say this. I have heard it preached from the pulpits of some relatively “sane” evangelical churches. This sort of approach is also quite common in some of the leading evangelistic approaches of our day. People are trained to tell others that God is holy, righteous, and good, and since one sin is enough to condemn us to hell, God is justified in sending us there if we don’t believe in Jesus for eternal life.
And rather than shying away from hell, we are told to use it as a way to invite people into heaven. After all, we are told, Jesus preached about hell more than heaven, and so should we.
But is this true?
Is it true that Jesus talks about hell more than heaven?
In my book I am currently writing on the violence of God in the Bible, I will be including a full chapter on what the Bible says about hell, and the vast majority of that chapter will find its way here to this blog.
But by way of preview (and because the topic of this month’s synchroblog is hell), here are some of the main points I will be writing about in that chapter:
References to “fire” are usually not references to hell.
Jesus does speak about “fire” several times in the Gospels (e.g., Matt 3:10-12; 7:19; 13:40-50; John 15:6). But these references to fire are not references to a place of eternal torture for the unredeemed, but are simply symbols of temporal discipline and destruction that come upon some people as a result of straying from God’s instructions. Fire can even be for purification of believers (the Greek word for fire is pur) as seen in 1 Corinthians 3:15.
Sometimes Jesus refers to “hell fire” (e.g., Matt 5:22), but these are actually references to “Gehenna,” which I discuss in a later point.
The few references where fire may refer to the everlasting flames of hell are places like Matthew 25:41, and are used in reference to a place created for Satan and his angels. Do some humans end up there? It appears so, but again, this will not be for torture and torment. To explain why will have to wait for the book…
References to “the outer darkness” and “weeping and gnashing of teeth” are not references to hell.
There are several instances in Matthew where Jesus refers to “the outer darkness” and “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt 8:12; 13:42-50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30). These terms are sometimes used in connection with fire and so most people think they also refer to hell.
But they don’t.
A careful contextual study of most of these texts reveal that the image of “outer darkness” is a symbol of exclusion from blessing and honor, and the image of “weeping and gnashing of teeth” is a vivid symbol of deep and profound regret. The events discussed in these places are typically events that will take place at the Judgment Seat of Christ (which is only for believers) and the Wedding Supper of the Lamb (which is also only for believers).
Again, I need full studies to show this, and these will have to wait for my book…
References to “hades” and “gehenna” are not references to hell.
There are numerous references in the Greek New Testament to hades and gehenna, and regrettably, most English translations translate these words as “hell.” But a place of eternal, conscious torment is what modern people think of when they think of hell, this is not what first century Jewish people would have thought of when they heard the words hades and gehenna.
Hades, of course, is the ancient Greek god of the underworld, the god of death. In biblical usage, it is often a Greek translation from the Hebrew sheol, which means “the pit” or “the grave.” Neither of these are references to hell, but simply refer to the hole in the earth in which dead people are laid (cf. Acts 2:27, 31; Rev 20:13).
There is, of course, the story about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, which seems to equate hades with torturous flames in a pit of hell. But there are numerous problems with understanding this text as referring to what really happens to people after they die (for example, Lazarus is there with the rich man and they can communicate), and so it is dangerous to take this text to literally.
F
inally, Gehenna refers to an actual place that existed outside the gates of Jerusalem. It was a little valley in which trash was thrown to be burned. This imagery must be understood wherever Jesus talks about “hell fire” and uses Gehenna (cf. Matt 5:22).
And do I need to say it? … Yes, I know a fuller explanation is wanted on all these terms and texts, but it will have to wait for the book…
When all of this is considered, we see that Jesus didn’t talk about hell more than heaven. He rarely mentions hell at all. As such, I think there is absolutely no place for threatening people with hell if they don’t believe in Jesus for eternal life. Yes, we can warn people (as Jesus did) about the disastrous temporal consequences of their sin, but threatening people with eternal torment in flames is neither Christlike nor theologically correct.
To say that Jesus warned people of hell and so should we is just plain wrong.
Jesus Really Didn’t Talk about Heaven that Much Either
Having said all this, Jesus really didn’t talk that much about heaven either.
Just as we don’t really want to scare people into believing Jesus, we shouldn’t try to bribe them either. While Jesus talks about heaven more than hell, neither have a big emphasis in His teaching.
Instead, Jesus frequently talks about everlasting life, and life in the kingdom of God. Eternal life, of course, begins the moment we believe in Jesus for it, but the longer we live in Him, the great the experience of eternal life gets.
And the Kingdom of God (or the Kingdom of Heaven) is not a synonym for heaven, but simply refers to the rule and reign of God in our lives.
If you want to evangelize, and you want follow the way of Jesus and the apostles, you don’t need to threaten or bribe. Simply lay out the grand vision of what life is like when we live it God’s way. Life under the rule and reign of God is a life of joy, freedom, contentment, fulfillment, and satisfaction. It is a life of laughter and delight. It is a life free from bondage and slavery and addiction. It is life as it was truly meant to be lived.
This is the life Jesus lived, and this is the life Jesus invited people into. If we want to evangelize others like Jesus, we don’t need to threaten them with hell or bribe them with heaven, but can simply invite them into a way of life is that is better than anything else the world has to offer.
This post is part of the May Synchroblog on the topic of hell. Below is a list of the other bloggers who participated this month. Go read what they have to say on the topic of hell.
- Wesley Rostoll – Hell, thoughts on annihilationism
- K. W. Leslie – Dark Christians
- Angie Benjamin – Hell Is For Real
- Paul Meier – Hell Is For Real – I’ve Been There and Came Back
- Glenn Hager – Abusing Hell
- The Virtual Abbess – What The Hell?
- Kimbery Klein – Hell, if I know.
- Michael Donahoe – Hell Yes…or No?
- Liz Dyer – Hell? No!
- Margaret Boelman – Hell No I Won’t Go
- Loveday Anyim – Why the hell do you believe in hell?
- Linda – The Y In The Road
- Edwin Aldrich – What the Hell do we really know.
- Mallory Pickering – The Time I Blogged About Hell
- Elaine – What The Hell?
The only ones who heard the hell hyperbole – were those who thought they were approved by God.
Hell hyperbole. I like that phrase.
Hell is a real place for those who do not repent of their sins Regardless of how much Jesus talked about it the reality is people are dying and separated from the Savior and Hell is where they will be for an eternity not everyone will be in heaven only those who repented it is never meant to be a scare tactic it is reality we need to take it seriously and warn people of the danger
Paul, not sure where you get only those who repented, Jesus is pretty clear the the only condition for receiving eternal life is believing or faithing in Him. To your point, however, If the things that we think we know about Hell and what it is and what it is like are based predominantly on verses that are not actually speaking about Hell, maybe we do not know as much about hell as we might think we do.
Pastor FedEx
When John the Baptist spoke in Matthew, he said, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” When Jesus began his ministry, he echoed the sentiment. It says in Matthew 4, “From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” ” Thus it is clear that repentance and heaven are tightly connected.
Excellent point
My salvation which took place over 40 yrs ago would have been invalid according to some people’s ideas of what is necessary. I said “Jesus, come into my heart and change my life”. It was a selfish prayer aimed at wanting a relationship with Jesus Christ. I was a tobacco smoking, beer drinking, drug using, drug dealer who was involved in occult. I did not trust Christians or the church. Within 6 months I was no longer doing or selling drugs or using alcohol or tobacco or involved in occult or going to church. Shortly after I did meet some very sincere Jesus people and joined the church and since have brought many souls to Christ. I did repent many times after being saved but not in order to receive eternal life. That was a free gift. All of the things like drugs were not removed by a conviction of guilt. After Jesus started changing my life I saw the wisdom of leaving these things behind. They were not a prerequisite of receiving Christ but a result of receiving Him
Repentance is part of belief in Jesus. To say all you need is to believe without repentance is false. Acts 3:19, Matthew 4:17, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30, Luke 13:3, Romans 2:4, Acts 11;18, Luke 5:32, Mark 1:15 to name a few
The lake the fire is the actual final judgement for nonbelievers. We must speak truth and warn of what awaits those who reject the Lamb. Plus the full happy fairytale life proclaimed in this article, is that true of those in the middle east being beheaded and raped and robbed right now? Or the starving in 3rd world countries? Not so sure.
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Jesus taught us to love and forgive, God sees our heart and we are his children. Hell is here and we make it real for us while we are living without love, compassion or judging our fellow human. Knowing Jesus he did not have to bribe us with silly teaching, too bad some are still living in darkness and use his name or interpret his teaching to scare us. Why would I be scared of my God, he knows my weakness and strength and I am part of him. Please do not use your silly ideas about hell and impose your ideas or use our lord’s teaching to bribe or scare God’s children.
Have you ever read Jesus’ words? You obviously believe in a different Jesus than the one in the Bible. And Jesus told you to be afraid of God! The one who can destroy both your body and soul in Hell.
How can I be more educated about Jesus Christ because I Love him
The question that should be asked is why does Jesus even mention it at all. If I’m correct, every time he mentions hell, it is in the context of pharisees or religious insiders. Are we really to think that the pharisees didn’t know about hell? But the way Jesus speaks of hell should make it clear that it is a threat. The pharisees assumed that due to their piety they would never end up there. Actually no one expects to go to hell. Ask anybody, and you’ll find that most think that they will not end up there. I think Jesus’ warnings are meant to strongly encourage us to search ourselves and to repent of attitudes hindering the work of the Spirit in your life.
Excellent insight, Yuri! The references to hell are mentioned in reference to religious people. Isn’t that interesting?! I had never noticed this before.
I am not sure about the facts, but someone said that Jesus never preached about hell to the Sadducees probably because they did not believe in an afterlife…….
Matt. 24.1-3, then 25.31-46.
Only speaking to his disciples. Then refers to all nations (panta ethne) who will be judged.
Hi! Yuri….At times Jesus spoke to the Pharisees directly about fire…..Mt.3:10, Mt 22:13, [Rich man and Lazarus] Luke 16: 19- 31
Other times directly to his disciples as they come to Jesus separately to understand: Mt: 13: 36 -50, Mt. 5: 22,
Mt 7: 19, Jn 15:6, Mt 24:51
Very interesting that Jesus never preaches hell or about the devil to the masses, was all about Love and relationship with God and our fellow man, and for our righteousness to surpass that of the Religious of that day….Even explaining about the “Tares of the field….He mentioned the devil only to the disciples: Mt 13: 39.
Many warnings in scriptures seems to be for us Jesus followers, we are so quick to judge the world when it is us as Christians who will be judge. Not everyone that says Lord will enter….Mt 8:12..was also a warning.
We have a ministry of reconciliation not condemnation…as 2Corinthians 5: 18 – 19.
Yes, we have been called to be in the stead of the Lord Jesus, to reconcile man with God: “…and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation” – 1 Cor. 5:18.
But that is not all:
“Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…” – 1 Cor. 5:11
Also note:
Those who do not believe or accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, their fate is sealed:
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” – John 3:18
Plus, the moment we accept Him as our Lord and Saviour we are justified. But that is just the start of the journey. God expects us to be perfect (Matt. 5:48). He expects us to be holy (Heb. 12:14). However, as and of ourselves we cannot attain unto that standard but Christ in us (John 15:1-6).
Eph. 4:11-16
God is love, yes. But God is also a consuming fire.
Jesus came to inaugurate the Kingdom of God. He came as King of the Jews. If the nation did not accept him, there was going to be a fiery judgment – which there was in 70 A.D. Jerusalem and the Temple were utterly destroyed. Thousands (maybe more?) Jews were crucified and their bodies dumped and burned in Gehenna. It was the end of the nation of Israel and of their worship system. By accepting Jesus, these Jewish leaders could have prevented this. By rejecting Jesus, the leaders doomed their nation. Jesus is holding them responsible and that is why he speaks strongly to them. We do not hear him speak that way to the tax collectors, prostitutes, and sinners. He even calls Judas “friend” as he comes to betray him with a kiss.
Great points, Lisa! So are you saying that the fiery judgment of which Jesus spoke is the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD? That sounds like a plausible explanation.
I am trying to “hear” what a first century Jew would hear listening to Jesus’ words. The Old Testament judgments were all temporal such as sword, famine, pestilence, exile. Death ended in the grave (Sheol). No Old Testament references to fire in Sheol. There were a couple references to Gehenna in the Old Testament but it was a real place on earth where nasty things happened.
I read on a Jewish rabbi’s site that references to “hell” started to appear in noncanonical Jewish sources about 100 years before Christ. So when Jesus refers to Gehenna in the gospels I wonder if he is referring to these noncanonical sources or is he warning like an OT Prophet about temporal judgment and fire? Is there any immediate or imminent context for fiery judgment or must we assume He is speaking of the afterlife?
Jesus clearly warns about 70 A.D. in Matthew 24 and Luke 19:41-44. Matthew’s gospel especially was written to the Jews to prove that Jesus was Messiah and it seems most of Jesus’ Gehenna sayings are found there. The Gospel of John mentions Gehenna not at all and his gospel was written to the world (John 3:16). So the sayings about Gehenna seem to be directed more specifically at the Jews, rather than to the world. So I am asking myself why and what does this mean?
The gnashing or grinxi g of teeth or weeping fir perfectly well in to the human condition of wrestling with sin. Spoilt children weep and wail when they do not get what they want. Seeking revenge and anger causes gnashibg of teeth. Both of these sinful traits cause a self inflicted hell to the actual person. Hell and heaven exist within the person. As states of consciousness they most often are chosen and imposed on ourselves. Eternal life is to infinity and beyond. Starting from the rebirth. In the new testament somewhere it actually states to NOT babble on about heaven and hell. Heaven and hell are extremely personal emotions I summise. Emotions which are actual places in the mind of the individual and very much a here and now reality to many. The kingdom of God likewise is an actual place in the mind and a reality to many also. These places all manifest themselves in a material universe. Created by God on a daily basis. A reality born out by the fact you may not be in tomorrow’s edition. Fact and absolute.
Jesus warned of the consequences of unbelief. For us to do any less is disobedient. Sure He offers life and that more abundantly but the whole counsel of God is needed. I sense a coming off the rails in Christendom lately.
Yes, Jesus did warn of the consequences of unbelief. The question is, what are those consequences?
Jesus warned of the consequences of *self-righteousness.*
Yes… but what are those consequences?
Jesus is not speaking of hell as we think of it. Each word he uses is different and has a different connotation. Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, Tartarus. Unfortunately, in the limited English language, they all translate to the same word: hell. So when those Pastors say that Jesus spoke of hell more times than anything…they have an agenda of fear going on.
Right! Very few teachings on hell bring out these various words, and fewer still point out that few of them (if any) refer to some sort of everlasting torment in flames.
Jeremy, Herb Montgomery over at http://www.renewedheartministries.com has the perspective about the Lazarus and the Rich Man story that it is actually a common story from Egypt, Cannan, all over the area, each with its own distinct flavor, but a common tale known by people of the day, which is why Jesus used it as an illustration, but not to expound on some kind of theological truth about hell or the afterlife.
Hm. I will go check it out. Thanks!
Someone once told me that this parable is the most misinterpreted one and hell believers love it: This person said this is what they think you have to understand from it:
There are three important spiritual truths about the Kingdom of God hidden in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. You are blessed indeed, if you are able to grasp these truths, which are:
1. Gentile Elect, represented by Lazarus, are pictured as spiritually ‘carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom’ after death. This picture shows that Gentile Elect believes are grafted into the spiritually rich Holy Olive Tree of Israel. They, together with Abraham and other Jewish Elect believers, are the Firstfruits who will be resurrected in the First Resurrection to enter the Millennial Kingdom of God at Christ’s Second Coming.
2. All unbelieving Israelites, represented by the rich man, will miss out on the rich Abrahamic blessing of entering the Millennial Kingdom of God with Christ, because they are temporarily cut off from their rich Holy Olive Tree of Israel. They will first need to endure God’s refining, corrective judgement in the age-to-come, age-lasting Lake of Fire, when they rise at the Second Resurrection. This is when they will seek God’s mercy, repent of unbelief and be saved by the Seed of Abraham, who is Jesus Christ Himself. Ultimately, all Israelites who die as unbelievers will be grafted back into their rich Holy Olive Tree of Israel.
3. The powerful truth of Election by Grace is that no Jew can be saved through the Law of Moses or through the writings of the Old Testament prophets, or even through witnessing or hearing about the miracle of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is entirely a matter of God’s will, which He is carrying out in His own time and order. Ultimately, all people without exception will be reconciled to God through repentance of unbelief and God given faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross to forgive the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2, John 4:42, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23a, Colossians 1:15-20).
I’ve enjoyed this posting but it leaves me with one question. What is Hell?
I will try to write about this more in the future.
would love to hear your thought of afterlife! I read this once and it makes sense to me:
To be made alive in Christ’ refers to the spiritual birth, the new birth in Christ referred to by Jesus as being born again (John 3:3). However, Scripture tells us that before a person is made alive in Christ, he needs to first die in Christ (Romans 6:5). So, the important question is what does it mean to ‘die in Christ’? Apostle Paul says that we all need to know that our sinful nature, the old man, was crucified with Christ. What about those who did not accept that – they first have to die in Christ – I believe is the 2nd death – So then, what is the Second Death? The Second Death is ‘the spiritual death of the sinful nature’ of an unbeliever cast into the Lake of Fire for judgement, and it happens when the unbeliever accepts by faith the work of the cross of God’s only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, for the salvation of the whole world. This is the ‘death in Christ’ which every resurrected unbelieving person must accept before that person becomes a believer.
Ok, so if an unbeliever were to die RIGHT NOW, would they just go into nothingness??
No. I do not believe so. There is life after death, even for unbelievers. I am not a universalist though… I will write more on this in the future.
Of course you’re not a “universalist” Jeremy!
You could/should only be labelled one (by others OR yourself) if you professed salvation (now or later) is found in anything else other than Jesus, the Lamb/Son of God.
You’ve never even hinted at such a profession; nor do I anticipate you too.
“Universalism” shouldn’t be applied to ones thoughts on the ages to come (and their resultant judgments/blessings), but rather on how salvation/reconciliation with the Creator can happen.
Pure and simple, eh?
Thanks bro.
M.
Jesus wrote that unless a man believed in Him he would die in his sins. Dying in your sins is another phrase for hell. Jesus didn’t want to use fear BUT He never hesitated in using fear when a person’s eternal destiny was in the balance. For us to not use it is to give the impression that Christ is a choice among many choices and not THE ONLY CHOICE and hope any man or woman has to live. Hell isn’t a fun thing to preach but IS a necessary one!
Mark,where in the bible do you see that dying in your sins is another phrase for hell?
I see in Job 7:21 that when you die you turn to dust and are no more.More of the same in Ecc 3:20 and Pslm 90:3
The wages of sin is death not eternal torment in “hell” Rom 6:23
Hi Emilio Gomez and Lisa! First of all if you are talking about physical death, why Jesus would be bother to say that ” unless a man believed in Him he would die in his sins” if in fact everybody will gonna die physically? Matthew 9:13 Jesus said he didn’t come to righteous but for sinners to call them for repentance, and that includes tax collector (verse 10) that you always brought up. He wanted sinners to repent because in Luke 13:3&5 Jesus said unless you repent, you will likewise perish. And that calling to repentance is for all nations and all people in the world, that is why he said in Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore into all nations and baptized them in the name of The Father, The Son and of the Holy Spirit; and teach THEM to OBSERVE ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED, and I am with you even in the end of age. In order for a man to be forgiven, Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Another thing about the “dead that has turn to dust and of no more”, that is the physical body that has no more, but your soul will be like in rich man if you did not repent from your sins (word, thoughts and deeds) and trust and obey Lord Jesus. Luke 16:22-24 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame….Don’t listen to these false teacher writers, if you listen and will do as you believe, and preach as you believe, it will send you to HELL with him. Jesus said in Matthew 15:14 blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit. Blessings!
Manny
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is just that-a parable.
If the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is literally true then the people in hell will be able to talk to the people in heaven.
Many parables in the Bible start without Jesus saying they are parables
A few examples from Matthew include:
–The parable of the Workers in the Field (20:1–16)
–The Two Sons (21:28–31)
–The Wise and Foolish Virgins (25:1–13)
–The Talents (25:14–30)
No parable spoken by Jesus used an actual name. Abraham’s bosom was emptied of the righteous after Jesus was crucified and arose. He took them up to heaven.
I think you are referring to John 8:24:
“Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
These words are spoken to the Jewish leaders who have been arguing with Jesus for many verses and refusing to accept His claims that God has sent Him. If they continue to reject the Kingdom of God, a terrible judgment will come upon Jerusalem in 70 A.D. which Jesus describes in passages like Matthew 24.
This is a specific warning given to a specific group at a specific time, not a general statement that Jesus is giving to the crowds, the sinners, the tax collectors and prostitutes. Perhaps Jesus says something similar to the crowds at another time? but not in this verse.
Thank you, Lisa, for pointing out the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. You are exactly right in that Jesus was talking to those people in the first century (and that doesn’t mean I’m implying that nothing refers to us now). Nobody else has mentioned 70 A.D., and I’m convinced it is significant. Jesus warned them, the people in that generation, that He would come back in judgment on them for rejecting Him.
The parable of the tares in Matthew 13, for example – am I completely off or isn’t the time of the harvest referring to the end of that age, the old covenant age, which ended in 70 A.D.?
Especially in Matthew’s gospel, which was written to the Jews to show them that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah, I think we have to keep 70 A.D. in mind when we read it.
The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple may very well be “the end of the age” Jesus refers to in the parables. If He were referring to the end of the Church Age, it would have made no sense to the people He was talking to at that time. Why warn the Pharisees or even His 12 disciples about the end of the Church Age which would be thousands of years in the future?
These are excellent points that you are making. Just out of interest, how would you reply to Lyle and Cookie? (About 5 posts above yours)
Oh boy! Now I am on the spot!
I am just recently starting to examine the teachings of my conservative, evangelical, fundamentalist tradition that I have been involved with for 28 years since my conversion. I thought I knew the answers to these questions, but now I am not so sure.
I want to go back behind Calvin, Dante, Augustine, and Platonic dualism to get to what the Bible actually says about such things. What did God reveal to the Hebrews in the Old Testament? How would a first century Jew answer these questions? What would a first century Jew have understood by Jesus’ statements? Could there be an immediate context to what Jesus is saying rather than merely assuming an eschatological context? What do we find in Paul about the answers to these questions?
So I am in process…
Lisa, can you recommend books or writings you are studying on this subject? All I have is a copy of Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin and one of Martin Zender Goes to Hell (a hilarious read, but it pissed off my father). I am studying this too and with great relish ! It is refreshing to read your insights! Praise be to God! I don’t want to part my email address but reply here and I will check back.
I did find a link to the Biblical Examination of Hell by Dr. Max Younce, shared by another reader here. Looks good…
Jeremy – can you give Jennae my email address so we can correspond privately?
That would be great! I can say that you can reach me at my first name written in pig-latin, at gmail dot-com. I don’t think spammers will find that 😉
I am twenty pages into Max Younce’s thesis, and all I can say so far is “meh”. Perhaps I am already too far gone in restoration theology to read his writings objectively…
I am not fully sure what you are saying, and I think you have not understood what I was saying in this post. If you understand the history and terminology behind the English word “hell,” I think that you will see that Jesus did not use fear to bring people into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Yes! You are right. These writer is self deluded and looks like a universalist. He even cannot answer some points and just saying I will make that in future books or writings, etc. The point is he could answer it right away if he really read Bible. I think he should repent or likewise he will perish (Luke 13:3&5).
As far as self righteousness goes- yes Jesus warned against it of course. But of even greater import is eternal separation from God. Self righteousness won’t send you to hell if you trust Christ though it will get you disciplined. The greatest self righteousness there is is not trusting Him.
Mark,when you say “eternal seperation” are you referring to being cut off from God?
Being “cut off” is used in the bible to indicate physical death and of people who will be “cut off” from the next life . the phrase is used several different ways in the OT and is another way God portrays the destruction of the wicked.
1 Sam. 24:21; 1 Kings 18:4; Isa. 53:8
Ps. 12:3; 37:9, 22; Nahum 1:15
Take a look at Luke 18 again.
And your point….?
Yes the tax collector was justified and the Pharisee was not. That has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Jesus in another place called out Pharisees for their unbelief. The fact of unbelief gets you a ticket to hell. Obviously the story of the tax collector and the Pharisee is saying just that as well- the Pharisee sees himself in no need for Gods mercy whereas the tax collector does. If a man is told hell exists as a consequence if disbelief are you implying that that is pride? If so there is plenty of evidence in scripture that is something both Jesus and the Apostles wrote on. I think your focus (if it is your focus) of pride being the motivation for preaching on hell is highly misguided.
I must say this in finality for me. Islam converts by the sword- which is the most prideful way of evangelizing. Christ let others know Who He was and why He came. When dealing with people He was gracious and loving. Once they knew who He was they many times would accept Him and become children of God. If they rejected that He would warn them- He would never force them into Gods Kingdom BUT He also LOVED them enough to tell them the consequence of their lack of belief. That was not “threatening or bribing anyone”! A threat or a bribe would not be telling the TRUTH of their decision-now back to Islam: now that’s a threat and a bribe! We as believers have a sacred responsibility and speaking of the consequence of failure to trust Christ is an eternally fatal decision- if we truly love others we will let them know the WHOLE truth!
This is good information. Can’t wait for the book!
Neither can I, ha!
Many orthodox christian teachings are just traditions and nothing more. How many christians believe there were 3 wise men? How many believe there 2 of every kind of animal on the ark?
Hell is another one of those false traditional teachings. John 3:16 sums it up –Jesus Christ came that we might have everlasting life and not perish. Perish=the end of life not everlasting torment.
I never saw that in John 3:16 before. Thanks for pointing that out 🙂
Great points, Emilio. I love the analogy too.
Right, right right. You are right. You want to be right, right? Well, you are right.
I look forward to reading your posts about this Jeremy. I find it strange that no mention of an eternal hell is made in the old testament. Why didn’t God tell Adam that his disobedience would lead to all humanity being burned in hell forever? All he was told was that on the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die. There was no warning about hell. Why is this? Why didn’t God warn him of these consequences? Why no clear statement? I find this strange.
Why doesn’t Moses warn about everlasting punishment for those who transgressed the law? All of the punishments in the law seem to be temporal. This is interesting as the Egyptians had a concept of eternal punishment which Moses would have been aware of, so why is such a concept never mentioned in the Torah? In fact, from my reading of scripture, it is difficult to find one reference to an eternal punishment in hell in the whole of the OT.
People often talk about the violence in the OT and particularly the violence that relates to the judgement of God via the people of Israel against the people who inhabited Canaan . Some people have suggested that it looks like God became ‘nice’ in the NT. But if our traditional view of hell is right, either God hid the fact that eternal hell is the destination of the ungodly from those who lived before the coming of Jesus and sent them there anyway, or they new about it but never clearly stated it in scripture, or His punishments changed from being temporal to being eternal in the New Covenant. If it is true that he’s changed from temporal punishment to everlasting punish, rather than the NT showing God to be ‘nicer’ under the new covenant, in actual fact the NT shows God to be ‘nastier’ (please forgive the use of such an idea as I don’t think he’s nasty in anyway) than he was on the OT as he has now introduced eternal, never ending punishment.
I’m sure that your looking at the concept of hell will attract a lot of criticism, Jeremy. There are some doctrines that Christians are taught not to question and the idea of everlasting punishment in hell is one of them. But surely it’s right that we look at what the church has traditionally taught in the light of scripture. Scripture and only scripture should be the standard we use in all matters of faith. Church tradition can inform our interpretation of scripture, but it shouldn’t dictate how we interpret it.
At this particular point in my walk with God I’m not sure where I stand on this issue. I look forward to you posts and the debate it generates. Although I fear it may degenerate into charges of flirting with heresy rather than a debate over what the scriptures actually say.
Like you, I noticed no mention of hell in the OT and started to look into that a little bit. I found a website a few weeks ago written by Rabbi Geoff Davis who is at the University of Northern Texas and teaches classes on Judaism. He says that, “Judaism does not teach a doctrine of eternal damnation.”
It appears in noncanonical sources from about 100 B.C. to 100 A.D.
He went on to say that, “Judaism ultimately rejects this idea with a God who is both just and compassionate. What you find in Rabbinic texts is a notion of Gehenna, a kind of purgatory in which the soul confronts its sin and is purified before it returns to God. Jewish hell is about remorse, not despair.”
(I hope I am quoting him correctly, these are notes I wrote in the back of my Bible!)
That’s interesting Lisa. Do you have a link to the article?
It would seem that very few people ever address the lack of OT evidence for an eternal hell, it would be interesting to hear how those who hold this position deal with this seeming lack of evidence.
I wish I kept the address but I did not. If you google Rabbi Geoff Dennis you will find his website and a contact for him.
Interestingly, I searched for other websites and ran across two other rabbis teaching the Jewish view of the afterlife. It boils down to a kind of purgatory in which our remorse (when shown our lives in a video!) will lead us back to God. This particular rabbi says only the very wicked (he names Pharaoh) will go to eternal damnation. The average person will be purified and return to God. There will be a very few on the other end of the continuum also, who are so righteous they do not need any purification and therefore go straight to God.
I remember in the original article by Rabbi Dennis he named Hillel as a rabbi about the time of Christ who taught the longest anyone (even wicked Pharaoh) would spend in this judgment would be 12 months. Then all would return to God.
Of course this was a very brief look on the Internet to see what the Jews believe about the afterlife. I don’t claim to know more about Judaism than what these 3 website showed me – I don’t know if they are typical of Jewish thought or not.
Have fun in your research!
Thanks for the great discussion, Paul and Lisa. I have a lot of reading and research to do on this subject, and the resources and ideas you discuss will be beneficial for me as I move forward.
If you find any of the links you discuss, can you post them here for me? Thanks!
Here’s an article by Rabbi Geoff Dennis:
http://ejmmm2007.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/sheol-gehinnom-gehenna-hell-in-judaism.html
Jeremy, be cautious about saying we are to evangelize by telling people all will be peace & joy if the live God’s way. Jesus himself said, “In this world you will have tribulation.” He promised us that we will be hated & persecuted for his name’s sake. He DOES promise that our ultimate reward will be worth it all. But life is hard, and it can take a lifetime to be deprogrammed from cultural & family traditions & hang up… and we are still “works in progress” til our last breath.
There has been too much “God has a WONDERFUL plan for your life” evangelism. When people discover LIFE STILL HURTS even after the put their faith in Christ, it can cause a loss of faith.
I think Christians in our generation need to keep praying & searching until we find a real answer to what the GOOD MEWS actually is. Meanwhile, the word of our testimony…. what God is teaching ME, and how he is healing and changing ME…. that’s all we really know for certain, isn’t it. There’s power in that. Revelation 12:11. People can argue with dovtrine, but they can’t argue with your experience.
Sigh…. GOOD MEWS??? Did my cat have a paw in my post here?
Robyn,
I am trying to be careful. Yes, life with God is not always a bed of roses and cake walks. It is full of trials, tribulations, nakedness, danger, and sword. I do try to balance this truth with the promises of joy and contentment that is found through living in the Kingdom. Thanks for the reminder.
Your response indicates you character.You can’t engage the argument maturely so you resort to 5th grade retorts.
Don’t be too hard on him. Maybe he is only in the 5th grade.
You’re right.
Jeremy,
Jody Dillow dedicates a large portion of His book Final Destiny on exactly this topic. He really does a great job with Gehenna as well. Have not read, yet, but He comes highly recommended frome some who have pretty much the same opinions as you state.
Thanks. I have his new book, but have not read it yet. Will try to remember to read the pertinent portions.
Hello Jeremy, you have certainly taken on some controversial views lately – I personally believe you have done so in a very responsible manner. Ephraim Currier wrote in 1841 that if we believe it is important to have the Bible, it is also important to understand the Bible. And Dr. Walter Martin stated that whereas controversy for the sake of controversy was a sin, controversy for the sake of the truth was a divine command.
I have lately come across many readers’ letters to newspapers criticizing Christians and “their mythical god” and most of these letters are written in plain derogatory fashion. Sadly, it seems many are from people who grew up in so-called Christian homes. There is not just one simple reason, I believe, but let’s face it, the turn or burn evangelism has done its fare share in causing this.
Gerrie, I love reading and researching controversial topics, and so I write about them as well.
But I don’t like controversy for the sake of controversy.
Ultimately, of course, my goal is get all of us to live in more loving ways toward one another. The controversial topics I bring up are often used by some Christians to bash others over the head and beat people up in the name of Jesus. So as we learn to read and teach Scripture through the lens of Christ, hopefully we can learn to love others like Jesus as well.
You know all this, of course. I am just agreeing with you.
I guess I’m just really confused what you ARE saying. I mean, I know you keep referencing how you’ll explain in your book, but to say Jesus doesn’t teach on heaven or hell really, we are left to basically wonder if anything we believe is true or not. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just expressing how much confusion this article has left me in after reading it. Is there a hell? Do we all go to the same place, according to this article?
When you say he’s not talking about the afterlife in various parts of the bible, how do we even know we WILL have an afterlife if he was only talking about life on this earth? Thanks
And, one more thing, what if you are a believer that isn’t walking in all this freedom and joy and the one thing you look forward to is life after this life, then this news is almost debilitating I believe. What hope is there between now and then if we can’t even know what He left us in His Word?
I would say that we can know what Scripture says. It is just that what is sometimes taught may not be what Scripture teaches. Note that I am not making this stuff up, but have learned what I am writing from reading other authors and from studying Scripture in community with other people. It was challenging and scary for me too at first, but has helped me come to live more and more in the freedom and joy I have in Jesus Christ.
Greg,
Great questions. I do believe the Bible teaches about an afterlife, and I do believe in a place we could call “hell” and a different place called “heaven.” No, we will not all spend eternity in the same place. I am not a universalist or an annihilationist.
I will try to explain more in the posts about hell that are coming up in a couple of months.
I have been in the understanding that at times, Jesus had a two fold meaning to much of what he said, the here and now, and the complete fulfillment in the life to come. Could that not be a possibility here?
Possibly. Though the fulfillment here and now is intended to be a foretaste or preview of the life to come.
how much or how little Jesus commented on Hell or Heaven is really irrelevant. the reality there is place outside of God’s presence that is reserved for those who do not repent. don’t gloss over it preach the truth the people you know who are not Christians will go there
Again with the repentance stuff, you say to preach the truth, preach it, And Jesus said, he who lives and believes in me will never die” no mention of repentance, in fact, when you read the Gospel of John, a book whose purpose is to show people the way to be saved, there is no requirement to repent in order to be saved, only to place faith in Jesus.
The last part of your post is the most troubling, however, since we do NOT know who is and who is not a Christian. Many who may be depending on their ability to repent and turn from their sins may not be saved at all, while those who have placed their trust in Jesus and are still in sin may indeed be Christians. I simply share the truth of who God is and what he is up to with everyone, because I DO NOT KNOW WHO IS AND WHO IS NOT A CHRISTIAN.
Pastor FedEx
To Pastor FedEx
we may not all agree about the subject at hand (Hell) but the Bible, which is my final authority in leading my life, says that there is a final judgment to come and unless you believe you will be eternally separated from the presence of God and the Bible does say we are to repent
Amen brother
To pastor FedEx
yes the Bible does say we must repent of our sins and believe in the context that we believe on the Lord Jesus that he is God died and rose 3 days later and that his sacrifice was all sufficient to take away our sins in that sense is how we believe not mere mental ascent. everybody I have ever talked to believes ( mental ascent) even the demons believe but it is not mere believing as in acknowledge there is a Jesus that saves us . it is a turning from our sin (repenteance) and fully trusting that what Jesus did on the cross will save us as God calls us and respond in faith.
Paul–Where in the bible does it say one must believe Jesus is God in order to be saved?
Can I confess Jesus as my Lord and Savior and believe that God raised him from the dead and be saved?
Paul, I do think that the bible talks about final Judgement for both believers and unbelievers. I do think that there is some verses that point to an eternal judgement for whether or not we “faith” Jesus. I just agree with Jeremy that much of what we think we know about this final judgment is based on verses that may not have that in mind at all.
And I never said the bible does not talk about repentance, just that it is not a requirement for salvation, only placing our faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ is. Repentance appears a lot, and I think that it has a great impact on how we live and experience this “eternal life” Jesus talked about. I will put it this way, our experience of eternal life may be predicated on our repentance, but our receiving eternal life is only predicated on Faithing Jesus Christ.
Pastor FedEx
NO SIR NO WAY Pastor FedEx
repentance and faith are evidence of salvation the point of James 2 is that faith is evidence of Salvation I DO NOT BELIEVE IN SALVATION BY WORKS BUT RATHER THAT WORKS ARE THE EVIDENCE OF SALVATION
Paul,
As much as the word “metanoia” can mean a change of mind about something, then I can accept it as part of our receiving salvation. If we are “repenting” or changing our mind from not believing in Jesus to believing in Jesus, then, Yes. But as for the work of turning away from sin, NOOOOOOOO> this is adding a work to the salvation that Ephesians, and Romans, and many others tell us is through Faith and not through works. If repentance or turning away from sins is required, then it is not of faith alone, it is of works. If you believe that, then ok, but you are teaching a salvation by works, not of faith.
PS, using the verse in James about the devils believing is not going to work. It is first and foremost a category error, they are angelic beings, and no offer of salvation was ever made to them. It does not matter what they believe, they cannot receive the life Jesus was talking about as it was never offered to them, but it WAS offered to any who simply believe in Jesus for it. There is no evidence of anyone worrying about spurious belief anywhere in the old testament. If you believe, then it is enough, the whole mental ascent thing is a red herring thrown by those who do not want to admit that sinful people may just make it to heaven. Lastly, think about the belief the demons have, they need no faith, they have first hand knowledge, they were there when all of it happened, and they know who God and Jesus are, and there is no doubt in them about these things. I wish I could have nearly as much belief as the demons do, sometimes I still doubt, but I have faith(belief in those things I cannot know for certain). To use James as an example of spurious belief that cannot save falls woefully short and misses the whole point of the book of James.
Pastor FedEx
Paul, you are just backloading works onto salvation as necessary in order to “prove” that it is real. But that ignores much of what is actually taught in the Bible. But making turning away from sin a part of receiving eternal life, is making a WORK, repentance, part of getting saved, and we know that by no WORK can any flesh be saved. The whole book of James is written to ‘dearly beloved brethren”a term only used of those who already believed in Christ for salvation, it is not at all about how to receive salvation, but rather what to do with it once you have received it. Paul, Any condition we place on salvation, either before or after that is not explicitly placed there by Christ when he says “pisteuo en” me, and you have eternal life” is troublesome. The repentance you require and make evidence of “true” faith, is nothing more than another gospel, and the Apostle Paul warns us about those in Galatians.
Pastor FedEx
to Emilio Gomez
do yu not believe that Jesus is God and to pastor FedEx if believe or faith are the only conditions for being saved then isn’t faith a work where do you think faith comes if it comes from you it is a work a condition to be saved if faith is a monergistic work of the Holy Spirit then the faith that saves is a gift of God which one would you say it is .please answer I believe that what God requires (faith) he also provides Please think about this before you answer
Paul
I’m having a hard time finding a verse in the bible that convinces me without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ is God Almighty.
99% of them seem to say he is the son of God.
And I dont see any at all that say we must believe he is God to be saved.
Son of God = Yes
Lord and Savior = Yes
That God raised him from the dead = Yes
Jesus Christ is God almighty = Dont see it
Emilio,
Just some thoughts on Jesus being “God”. There are many references in John to Jesus telling his disciples if they know the Son they know the Father. But these are open to interpretation and debate. The following… less so. I hope they are at least helpful as they have been for me.
“Thus saith Jehovah … I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God” (Isa. 44:6 ASV), and, “I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory I will not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images” (42:8 ASV).
Jesus prayed, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5—this is an obvious claim for Christ’s deity, for Jehovah of the Old Testament said, “My glory will I not give to another” [Isa. 42:8 NKJV]).
Jesus also declared, “I am the First and the Last” (Rev. 1:17)—precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 44:6.Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men (John 5:27ff.; Matt. 25:31ff.), and Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, “There I will sit to judge all the nations on every side” (Joel 3:12).
Likewise, Jesus spoke of Himself as the “bridegroom” (Matt. 25:1f.) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isa. 62:5; Hosea 2:16).
The strongest claim Jesus made to be Jehovah is in John 8:58, where He says, “Before Abraham was born, I am!” This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the “I am” of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around Him clearly understood His meaning and picked up stones to kill Him for blaspheming (cf. John 10:31–33). The same claim is also made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5–6.
Jesus said to a paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven” (Mark 2:5ff.). The scribes correctly responded, “Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
In the great messianic prophecy of Daniel 7, the Son of Man (Messiah) is called the “Ancient of Days” (7:22), a term used twice in the same passage of God the Father (Dan 7:9, Dan 13).
The Old Testament clearly forbids worship of ANYONE except God (Ex. 20:1–5; Deut. 5:6–9). The New Testament likewise reiterates this fundamental teaching of Scripture (Acts 14:13-15; Rev. 22:8-9). But in direct defiance (?!) of this command, Jesus accepted worship on several occasions (e.g. the leper he healed as well as the blind man in John 9). Also, Thomas the disciple saw the risen Christ and cried out “My Lord and my GOD” (John 20:28). Jesus didn’t rebuke OR correct him.
Paul,
Not sure that I understand your question, or what exactly that has to do with repentance, but I will say that faith is our response to the convincing work of the Holy Spirit. God is calling and drawing men to himself through the witness of the Holy Spirit, and when we respond to that work by believing the testimony of the Holy Spirit, that is faith. Is it a work, no, does it require something from us, Yes, not work, but a change of mind. Whether the grammatical structure of Ephesians 4:9 means that the faith is a gift or the grace is a gift, is debatable, but the leading, calling and convincing work are definitely God’s work for us, so maybe they are a gift. The response of faith, not so sure,
Pastor FedEx
pastor FedEx
grace is the free choice of God he bestows salvation on whom he chooses
faith is what God requires from us to bring us in to relationship with Him I am saying to you that God saved you first and then you had the ability to faith pisteuo en auton
If it is a mix of God calling and you responding with your own faith then faith is a work thisknown as synergism our faith and Gosd’s grace working together which to me is heresy
the Bile says that Salvation is from God the work of salvation frombeginning to end is the sole of God we were dead and he resurrected us as dead as Lazarus was in the tomb so we were to Him in our sins and God called us and made us alive in Jesus
We are Saved by grace through Faith.
This Jesus, we receive by faith to be saved (forgiveness of sins and spared from the wrath of God to come).
In receiving Jesus, the bible says we are believing the testimony of God that Eternal Life is in the Son and that God sent him and the works of mercy that HE did while on earth was evidence that the Father was with HIM.
Even This Christian life we are the live by faith still just the same as we believed at first.
So its faith THROUGHOUT.Good works(fruit) then are the evidence of ”work of grace” in our soul and spirit.Which I believe God made it so that by the fruit we are known whether we are of GOD or not.
Our works or deeds are not for our salvation but FAITH.Yet these works are the basis of God’s Judgement when HE shall judge people by the ”Man” Jesus whom he he has appointed.
so.
SALVATION by Grace through FAITH (EPH 2 VS 8)
JUDGEMENT by DEEDS .Rom 2 vs 6
Good day Brethren!
Paul, since I reject the unbiblical Calvinistic doctrine of election, I cannot come to any agreement with you on this particular. Grace is God’s gift, freely bestowed upon all. and appropriated by those who respond to the calling and leading of the Holy Spirit. Synergism is not widely recognized as Heresy, but if it was, I am not sure that necessarily means it is wrong.
I am not sure we are going to get any further along when you start by saying that repentance (a work) is necessary for real faith, then chastise me for intimating that any volition is part of faith. Whether or not regeneration precedes faith or whether it happens simultaneously with faith is also not clear, but not really related to our now very off topic discussion of repentance. If as you say, faith is not a work, then so be it, but then this faith cannot necessitate repentance which also must then be a work.
Pastor FedEx
pastor FedEx
Only if faith comes from you is faith a work
we add nothing to our Salvation no faith no repentance no works nothing is considered in God saving us when God saves us it is from his mercy and grace and he supplies the requirement for us having faith and repenting and yes I do hold to the doctrines of Grace or Calvinism as you call it
Paul,
I have never before heard the doctrine of grace and Calvinism used intrechangably. It might catch on, but i doubt it, Calvinism is only the doctrine of grace if you are chosen, if not, then you can just go to hell, literally. Either way, we are talking across each other. I believe that faith is a choice, plain and simple. If we can choose to rebel, and therefore recieve the consequences, then we by necessity must be able to choose faith. Otherwise, if it ia all of God, and God is not willing that any should perish but ALL to come to eternal life, then if He does not cause all to come to Him, He is a liar and not good. I do not believe in this kind of God, yet there is no way to hold Calvinism and avoid these conclusions, except to say “God is God and can do as He wants”. But i say, God cannot act inconsistant with His character.
Pastor FedEx
Emilio
what do you think Lord and Savior mean????? how do you explain the trinity God the Father God the Son Jesus and God the Holy Spirit. You might have to do some studying but Hebrews 1 explains it real clear DO YOUR HOME WORK BEFORE YOU REPLY
THANKS AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF YOU ARE ON FACEBOOK I ENJOY DISCUSSING THIS TYPE OF THING
Paul,
Thank you for being willing to discuss these things with Emilio. However, please note that typing in ALL CAPS is interpreted online as yelling. I don’t think you are yelling at Emelio… but just wanted to let you know.
As for the titles “Lord and Savior,” I am certain that Emilio knows about these in the Bible, and he probably knows that neither one refers to Jesus being “God.” Lord simply means “master” or “ruler” and many thousands of people in the days of Jesus were called by such a title. “Savior” means “deliverer” and several others in the days of Jesus had this title as well, including Caesar.
I am NOT saying that Jesus was not God. I believe He was. I just wanted to share some of the information Emilio might be referring to…
I was considering your point of view until the very end when you said:
“If you want to evangelize, and you want follow the way of Jesus and the apostles, you don’t need to threaten or bribe. Simply lay out the grand vision of what life is like when we live it God’s way. Life under the rule and reign of God is a life of joy, freedom, contentment, fulfillment, and satisfaction. It is a life of laughter and delight. It is a life free from bondage and slavery and addiction. It is life as it was truly meant to be lived.
This is the life Jesus lived, and this is the life Jesus invited people into. If we want to evangelize others like Jesus, we don’t need to threaten them with hell or bribe them with heaven, but can simply invite them into a way of life is that is better than anything else the world has to offer.”
I have 2 questions:
1. What happened to “…take up your cross daily and follow Me…” and “…they hate/persecute Me, they will hate/persecute you…” ?
2. If there is no threat of hell, who needs grace? Does mercy even exist? From what are we saved?
I don’t think you’ve quite “got it.”
I did not say there is no threat of hell. I am saying that Jesus didn’t threaten people with hell, and neither should we. As for grace and mercy, we have nothing without grace and mercy.
And as for persecution, this is obviously part of the life of discipleship as well, but a persecuted life with Christ is better than a non-persecuted life without Christ. So the grand vision of live with Jesus is still what can be offered.
I don’t think you quite read enough of my blog.
“inadequate crock”
“I read all of this entry and it was not…”
Eleanor, you have a magical way with words. Underneath an ever so slightly mean exterior you have the heart of a poet. Judging by your affection for hell and suffering, dare I suggest a heart like Sylvia Plath? I expect great things of you my dear, just be careful not to cheer up.
Oh, some cultural philistine removed Eleanor’s masterful reply. There’s no accounting for literary taste. People are so sensitive today to a little brutality and a stab in the heart. It’s all part of lively theological debate. Censor, you have committed a crime, not just against free speech but also against the pen of a future giant on the literary stage. Eleanor, do not dispair. Keep ripping people apart and one day your starry light shall be raised.
Well, I’m not a Universalist either, but I must correct you here. The definition of a Universalist is that all make it to heaven in the end. It doesn’t entail denial that Jesus is the way to get there. Evangelical Universalists like Robin Parry believe that, given enough time in Gehenna, all will choose Jesus. I think it sounds like confession on the rack but it’s not a denial that Jesus is the only way. There are Universalists who believe what you ascribe to them but those who base their Universalism on the Bible don’t.
I have read some about this argument regarding Gehenna. What are you thoughts of the exegetical evidence?
Just to clarify that was intended as a reply to Mark, but didn’t come out as such.
I think the universalist exegesis is about as strong as the traditionalist, but then I think the traditionalist exegesis is very weak. I believe conditional immortality is the clear teaching of the bible if you don’t approach it with the assumption that the soul is immortal.
You may be right about the biblical basis for the various positions.
For me, I think that many people get too caught up in the question of heaven vs. hell after people die, when we really should be focusing on delivering people from the hell they are in while they live.
Perhaps I should clarify. It’s hard to know when we should talk about “the clear teaching of the Bible” given so many different interpretations. And you say above that you are not an annihilationist and you obviously have studied this prayerfully. Also all three camps have their verses and maybe you have discovered a fourth way? We will have to wait and see.
I should just say I have found conditionalism by far the most plausible exegesis from my own studies.
I do agree with that. There is a Jewish fable about a righteous man who gave away his share in the world to come to rescue some hostages. When asked why he was so happy he said “before I was never sure if I worshipped God for the right reasons, now I know I serve him for his own sake”.
Nevertheless I think many people are driven from God by the doctrine of eternal torment. I could never completely trust him while I believed it. So if one doesn’t believe that doctrine I think that is something worth sharing.
I find this thread interesting. I would love to believe in annihilationism, or put differently, I would love to believe that Hell is not an eternal place of conscious torment….or at least that unbelieving humans won’t have to be there forever. The problem is the text. I have to be loyal to the text no matter what. I’ve seen occasional interesting things from the annihilationists, but overall the exegesis has not impressed me. However, I did come across this fact recently: Josephus supposedly stated that the Romans tossed 1,100,000 Jews in the Valley of Kidron, now, the Kidron Valley is located next to and actually connects to the valley of Gehenna. I also came across this on the internet:
One defector told Titus that their number was estimated at 115,880.
But it doesn’t list the source. In any event, this supports Lisa’s theory that Jesus may have been referring to this judgement in Mathew 23:33.
A book I want to read is “Her Gates Shall Never Be Shut” by Brad Jersak. Have you read this book? He is not an annihilationist.
Jeremy,
No I haven’t, but a big thanks for suggesting it. I found a 40-page preview on Brad Jersak’s website. Skimmed over the whole preview, reading about half of it. Excellent tool to research this topic. Rather than ‘indoctrinating’ the reader into one view or the other, he seems to focus more on giving the reader a ton of useful information which they can use to perform their own exegesis. That’s the style I like. About a year ago I tried to do a little study on Sheol/Hades(focusing more on how things were before the crucifixion), but couldn’t get very far as I couldn’t find any in depth treatment of the topic….his work will help me pick that up again as well. This book is now on my short list. Very cool. Thanks!
How could you miss the fact that in Mathew 13:47-50 it CLEARLY say’s “Shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth”…….any idea what the furnace of fire is??? Take a wild guess???
A few years ago, I went through every teaching passage in the gospels (excluding the birth, John the Baptist, and the crucifixion). Slightly over half of the stories spoke of Heaven, and slightly over half spoke of Hell, with much overlap. Almost all are parables. Thus most have a temporal meaning relevant to the current life, but also a spiritual meaning that refers to the afterlife or related matters. The context makes it clear that the disciples and many others had great difficulty understanding the full thrust of what Jesus was saying. In my own research, I found time and again that I had the wrong understanding of what some of the parables meant. Thus I do not accept anyone’s assertion that Heaven and/or Hell are not pervasive topics in Jesus’ ministry (along with a close third: money.) He meant for us to allow thoughts of the Kingdom of Heaven and all it implies to pervade how we think about all issues of life. Likewise, he also means for us to think soberly about Hell and what it implies. In my study of scripture, I found two spiritual treasures more important than all the others: the Fear of the Lord, and the Glory of God. Note how Hell and Heaven correspond so well to these two? The Old Testament is full of statements about how the Fear of the Lord leads to every conceivable good outcome and blessing: life, health, wisdom, etc. And the Glory of God is what believers in Heaven will thrill to for eternity.
Actually, Jesus doesn’t talk that much about heaven either. People often confuse “the kingdom of heaven” with “heaven.” The two are not the same thing at all. Also, people often confuse any talk about “fire” or “gehenna” or “outer darkness” with hell. Again, those terms are not referring to some sort of dwelling place of the unregenerate dead.
The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man and the fire is obviously based in common Jewish folklore ideas about the afterlife.
It seems that people I have heard teaching over the years cannot accept that Jesus would use folklore to illustrate a real truth.
(In our folklore we have a similar one about Peter at the pearly gates vetting admissions, that is used to illustrate ideas).
Is there any reason why Jesus could not use myth as illustration. No reason at all. It does not detract from Jesus’ truth one bit.
I propose that the story has nothing to do with theology of hell fire.
I wonder why people have not questioned why the poor beggar in the story is called Lazarus. In the Old testament we find “a rich man and Lazarus.” That is, Abraham and Lazarus of Damascus. Lazarus was not a relative of Abraham but stood to receive Abraham’s inheritance. When Isaac was born Lazarus missed out on the inheritance and the blessing.
Could it be that Jesus’ hearers well understood the allusion and point of the story.
The non family ( the dirty Gentiles ) could receive the inheritance and the blessing after all, and the rich man ( the family of Abraham who regarded wealth as a sign of God’s approval for His elect ) could miss out and missing out could lead to a “burning fire” of resentment and regret.
In fact isn’t the point of the story to demolish the Jewish idea of favoured election and call the hearers to self denying faith in God’s forgiveness, revealed in ” the law and the prophets “.
If we have placed our faith in the living Lord who gives life eternal, we have no need to investigate theories of damnation.
I’ve read of Eliezer of Damascus. Where does it say Lazarus of Damascus?
The blind leading the blind. So sad there are all these hyper-grace “teachers”. No matter what, there are verses on eternal punishment that stump all these types of teachers– just as there is no “real” solid proof of evolution. In the end, what was Jesus really trying to say? What was He implying?? It’s really not that difficult and He regularly spoke in parables and simplicity. Yes He’s all-loving but His grace must be understood with balance. He’s multi-faceted.
What are these passages of which you speak? Regarding grace, there is no such thing as balanced grace. Grace is shocking, scandalous, outrageous, and free, or it is not grace.
I agree with Ashley, another hypergrace teaching.. hell is real. We like it or not the truth is the truth
SPECIAL TOPIC: ETERNAL (aiōnios)
Robert B. Girdlestone, in his book Synonyms of the Old Testament, has an interesting comment on the word “eternal”:
“The adjective aiōnios is used more than forty times in the N.T. with respect to eternal life, which is regarded partly as a present gift, partly as a promise for the future. It is also applied to God’s endless existence in Rom. 16.26; to the endless efficacy of Christ’s atonement in Heb. 9.12; 13.20; and to past ages in Rom. 16.25; 2 Tim. 1.9; Titus 1.2.
This word is used with reference to eternal fire, Matt. 18.8; 25.41; Jude 1:7; eternal punishment, Matt. 25.46; eternal judgment or condemnation, Mark 3.29; Heb. 6.2; eternal destruction, 2 Thess. 1:9. The word in these passages implies finality, and apparently signifies that when these judgments shall be inflicted, the time of probation, change, or the chance of retrieving one’s fortune, will have gone by absolutely and for ever. We understand very little about the future, about the relation of human life to the rest of existence, and about the moral weight of unbelief, as viewed in the light of eternity. If, on the one hand, it is wrong to add to God’s word, on the other we must not take away from it; and if we stagger under the doctrine of eternal punishment as it is set forth in Scripture, we must be content to wait, cleaving to the Gospel of God’s love in Christ, while acknowledging that there is a dark background which we are unable to comprehend” (pp. 318-319).
Copyright © 2014 Bible Lessons International
SPECIAL TOPIC: ETERNAL PUNISHMENT (hell, from Matt. 25:46)
The same term (aiōnos) that describes heaven as everlasting is applied to hell as everlasting (cf. Matt. 18:8; 19:16; Mark 3:29; 9:48; 10:17; Luke 18:18; Jude 1:7; Rev. 20:10; also with “eternal judgment” in 2 Thess. 1:9 and Heb. 6:2). Daniel 12:2; John 5:29; and Acts 24:15 describe a resurrection of both the righteous and wicked. Josephus states that the Pharisees believed in the immortality of all “souls” (cf. Antiq. 18.1,3), but only the resurrection of the righteous into a new body, while the wicked have eternal punishment (cf. Jewish Wars 2.8,14). The eternality and finality of the lostness of those without Christ is the impetus and urgency of gospel preaching, teaching, and witnessing! Hell was not created for humanity but for a holding place for Satan and his angels (cf. Matt. 25:41).
An eternal hell is not only a tragedy for rebellious mankind, but also for God! God created humans as the apex of His creative event. We were made in His image and likeness for fellowship with Him (cf. Gen. 1:26-27; 3:8). God’s choice to allow mankind a choice resulted in a significant percentage of God’s creation being separated from Himself! Hell is an open, bleeding sore in the heart of God that will never be healed.
Surprisingly it is Jesus, Himself, who speaks of hell (i.e., Gehenna, see Special Topic: Where Are the Dead?). The word is used only one other time in the NT, in James 3:6. God will finally isolate intransigent evil and unbelief and reestablish the world He intended it to be. The biblical imagery is:
1. a new garden (cf. Genesis 1-2, i.e., paradise restored, cf. Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:14; Rev. 2:7)
2. a new city (i.e., “new Jerusalem,” cf. Rev. 3:12; 21:1-4)
3. a house with many rooms (cf. John 14:2-3)
Copyright © 2014 Bible Lessons International
Thank you, Darren. I don’t know how people can understand “eternal life” but not understand “eternal punishment”. Hell is real. The rich man begged for Lazarus to be resurrected in order to warn his brethren of Torment. That is not just a “common grave”. Also, those who deny the existence of Hell/Lake of Fire also have no understanding of what Jesus went through on the cross when He was made to be sin for us. He cried out, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”, because of the moral and spiritual anguish He felt as if He Himself were cast into the lake of fire.
I do not know if there will be literal flames in the lake of fire. But I do know that it is an eternal separation from God where one will have to live forever with the shame and guilt of his/her sin. That is Torment enough; to be in eternal agony, forever separated from all love, joy and peace that can only come from God.
Because God needs redeeming??? Lol!! Heretical trash at its finest!!
Hell. And my personal account of it.———At 26 I was arrested. No one knew about this except me. So I entered a state of despair. My mouth was dry, my body temperature was nearly uncontrollable, or so it felt. I could not sleep and there was a grinding of teeth and tears. There was no one for me to turn to. I felt like the most desperate person on planet earth. This was a dark, dark place to be in and I was certainly not happy in any sense of the word. This was hell or as close as I ever will be to such a place. In that dark place God spoke to me in several different ways. And over a couple of days he was by my side for strength and led me to jesus and in turn the indwelling spirit of God. And into the eternal kingdom. People can talk about hell all they care to and I, m sure many people have suffered a worse hell than me. But it was as close to hell as I ever would like to be or indeed maybe needed to be for the conviction of sin to do its job. Hell can be and is in many a place and is many a thing. It is just sheer idiocy to reduce it to a Hans Christian Anderson feir pit!! So please. Just wise up. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of WISDOM!!!! !! So if you claim to have fear/”respect for the Lord, let alone anyone else! Lets begin wising up.
Jeremy,
You state that “To say that Jesus warned people of hell and so should we is just plain wrong.” And we should believe you, why? Are you The infallible interpreter of scripture? You raise some very interesting points which are certainly worthy of consideration; if you don’t mind, though, I will take others’ views into consideration and, after prayer and reflection, decide which is the most reasonable.
Like all of us, I will have to wait until Judgement Day to find out if I was right. I would never dare say anything relating to biblical interpretation is ‘just plain wrong’.