This is a little follow up post from yesterday where I said that Jesus did not in fact speak of hell more than heaven. Note that if what I proposed is true, then most of the passages in the Gospels that people think refer to hell, do not actually refer to hell.
If that is true, then there are very few passages in Scripture which do teach about hell! In fact, there may be only two or three.
And these rare passages use highly symbolic terminology which tells us that we basically know nothing about hell.
One Bible teacher whom I used to listen to a lot, believes that hell is in the center of the earth. His argument is that when the Bible talks about the grave, it uses terminology about people going down into the earth, and therefore, hell must be in the earth. I find this almost laughable, for it shows a complete disregard for biblical imagery and symbolic terminology. “Going down into the earth” refers to getting buried and returning to dust, not going to hell.
Anyway, the few passages which do in fact refer to a place of punishment speak of flames and a Lake of Fire. Does this mean that hell will actually be a place that is burning? I could be wrong, but I really doubt it.
Fire in Scripture, when used symbolically, always refers to judgment. Hell is simply going to be a place of judgment, and it is usually temporal in nature.
Hell will not be a place of torture or torment as depicted in the 1997 Science Fiction movie Event Horizon (If you haven’t seen that movie, I don’t recommend it. It’s about a group of space travelers that travel to hell. And hell is very graphically depicted in the movie.)
So since hell is not a place where God tortures people for eternity, I almost literally shake with anger when I read these words that Jonathan Edwards preached:
The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment.
Aside from his abhorrent view of hell, Edwards reveals a monstrous view of God and a despicable view of men. Forgive me for saying it, but this kind of evangelism can go to hell.
What is hell going to be like? Scripture doesn’t give us much indication.
Personally, I see a lot biblical and theological merit to the way C. S. Lewis portrayed it in his book The Great Divorce. He claimed he was not writing a theology of hell in this book, but I suspect he said that just to keep people from calling him a heretic. He pictures hell as a place where people live and exist because they want to, and where everybody gets exactly what they want. It is not torture. In that book, he wrote this:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.
Lewis wrote elsewhere that the doors of hell are locked from the inside.
If you think about what life would be like if everybody got exactly what they wanted, it would be hell. Eventually, people couldn’t stand to be around each other. The longer they are there, the most disconnected they would become. In this sense, hell, ultimately, is eternal loneliness. It is eternal separation from God and others.
That, of course, is pretty hellish, but it is not the same as God torturing us for all eternity. Instead, it is God granting our desire to live apart from Him and live our lives exactly as we please.
Anyway, I will write a lot more about this when I get to the subject of hell in the current book I am writing on the violence of God, but I wanted to just give a short preview of my views on hell, and provide a follow-up from the post yesterday about whether Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven.
It”s an insult to God when peeps assume the only way to add another scalp to their evangelistic belt is to scare them into thinking God is mean and unapproachable (Wow my spell check let that word go through!!!).
Right! A terrible insult to God and to the people we are trying to evangelize.
The trap-door lever has “unbelief” embossed on it. 😉
This is a prototypical straw man argument. You take a fringe group that might be focusing excessively on fire and brimstone and state that “many” Christian groups engage in this. Most don’t in my experience. However the biggest issue I have with Mr Myers is this “better life” motif that he has substituted for the gospel. Jesus in John 3:16 wants to save us from perishing -that’s the primary reason for His coming and dying on a cross- and once we are justified we have everything we need to have a better more fulfilling life- BUT putting the cart before the horse does not change the truth of Jesus primary purpose “To save us!” From what is He saving us? A less fulfilling life? Think again.
Mark,
Have you done a study of the word “save”? Very rarely (if ever) does it refer to deliverance from hell. In fact, though I may be wrong on this, I will hazard a guess that the Scripture nowhere teaches that we are “saved from hell.”
As for fringe groups, my experience is the exact opposite of your experience. It seems that every group I run into seems to require talk about sin and hell as part of the evangelism message. So I am not sure which groups you are familiar with, but all the groups I am familiar with (Evangelism Explosion, Billy Graham crusades, The Way of the Master, all Calvinistic/Reformed presentations, etc, etc) include discussions about the consequences of sin being eternal punishment.
Ourselves.
Brother you are extremely confused. Sin and hell are real- yes He is saving us from ourselves Why? What is in ourselves that we need saving? Sin and a hellish present and future. We need HIS justification to get us IN HIS PRESENCE! Without His presence life and eternity are hell. No way around it. You cannot euphemize words to take away the truth. Hell is real whether we want to mention it or not. I feel sad about this argument and this article. Its so disingenuous.
I agree Mark, this person is beyond confused !! If you don’t understand that hell was made for Satan then perhaps you also don’t believe that we as Christ followers have an enemy and his role here on earth…most unbelievers are living a hell down here so when I preach or do one on one evangelism, I most certainly inform them of hell…I could quote verses here but really you just need to have solid theology….I have been misguided in my life so my prayer is that you would search out for yourself to have solid foundations….then pass it on bro!! It will help tons in life!!
Mark and Arlene,
I have absolutely no idea where you are getting the ideas from that you condemn me for believing. I feel like you didn’t read the article and are simply posting a comment based on the title of this post and your misconceptions about what I might have said.
Au contraire on confusion.
Best of luck.
With all due respect, Mark, It’s a waste of time to discuss this with you. You’re just going to regurgitate a mess of Calvinistic systematized groupthink (which I once did at a point in my life). Your pontificating responses are symptomatic manifestations. Let’s save our processors some energy.
To each his own.
It’s certainly looking like that. 🙂
Jeremy, I have to depart from you on this issue. Paul makes it very clear (2 Thes 1:9) that the fire, hell, damnation and separation are all the same. The idea that there is no eternal punishment, is foreign to the scriptures. Did Jesus use symbolic language, places that existed on earth to describe Hell, yes, he most certainly did. But that was Jesus’ style, i.e.parables. In this notion of fire being not literal fire, is interesting, for I believe it is as best as could be described to us. The punishment, eternal as described in 2 Thessalonian 1:9, is called flaming fire in the previous verse (vs. 8). And this punishment, that is everlasting (i.e. lasts for ever as my 9-12 year old class told me everlasting means) is described in very clear terms. I know that the notion of Hell, a Lake of Fire and everlasting punishment flies in the face of an eternally loving God, it is none the less THERE.
Those who study Greek say “aionos” (which we translate eternal) does not mean forever but rather “an age” such as we would say the Victorian Age (the Victorian Aion). So the punishment does not last forever but for an age. Eternity probably doesn’t have “ages” as it is beyond time. Just some food for thought…
Fire is also used in Scripture to show purification – like when dross is burned from silver and gold in a refiner’s fire. In those cases it’s the bad stuff that gets burned up and what remains is purified. There is a similiar idea in 1 Cor.3 : 11-15 where believers will have a judgment of their works by fire. I think it is worth it to study these things thoroughly and I appreciate that Jeremy is asking the questions.
The problem with your use of the Greek is the word for eternal is used for eternal life also. So are we to believe Jesus gives us an age long life? Poor exegesis
Well you and I are both dependent on those who actually study Greek for our exegesis – or are you a Greek scholar?
The answer to your question (that I understand from teachers) is that eternal life does NOT mean forever! It describes a quality of life, not a quantity. It describes a life characteristic of the next age and the quality of life in that age. “Eternal” is a poor English word to translate a Greek concept because of hoe we define “eternal” in English.
I am only repeating what I read from others. I do not speak classic Greek.
When the Bible mentions “eternal punishment” it is the result of the punishment that is eternal not the actual punishment.
Heb 5:6, Heb 9:1, Heb 6:2, Matt 25:46, 2 Thess 1:9
Notice that in all the above verses, the result is eternal not the action
Lisa ,here is a commentary from Mat 25:46 concerning aionious. I have more if you are interested.
Another misconception that must be cleared up about this verse is that it does not teach that people burn forever in the Lake of Fire. The “goats” are thrown into the fire and burned up; annihilated. The phrase that has caused the confusion is κόλασιν αἰώνιον, which usually gets translated, “eternal punishment” (kolasis aiōnios literally means, “age punishment,” because in Greek the adjective (aiōnios; age) usually is after the noun (κόλασιν; punishment)). As we stated above, because of the context, which is the start of Christ’s kingdom on earth, we feel that the primary emphasis of this verse is, “the punishment associated with the Age to come.” However, the adjective aiōnios can refer to duration as well as a specific age, so there is a sense in which “everlasting punishment” is a good translation, but it must be properly understood.
The Greek word kolasis, “punishment,” is a noun, not a verb. The phrase is not “everlasting punishing,” as if the “punishing” went on forever, but rather it is “everlasting punishment,” because the punishment, which is death, goes on forever. For those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire and experience the “second death” (Rev. 20:14), their punishment, death, will never end. They are never given life again; they are annihilated from existence forever.
There are times when the noun “punishment” is used for the process of the act of being punished, so how do we know that this verse does not use “punishment” in the sense of “punishing”? The way to know that is from the scope of Scripture. Does the whole Bible, taken together, teach that the unsaved are annihilated in the fire, or survive in the fire and burn forever? The clear reading of Scripture is that mankind is given a choice between life and death. There is no verse that states that God gives people a choice between living forever in a good place or living forever in a bad place. John 3:16 gives the choice between “perish” or “everlasting life.” Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is “death,” but the gift of God is “life.” Jesus said the believer has passed from “death” to “life” (John 5:24). The orthodox teaching is that people burn “in hell” forever, but that mostly comes from the unbiblical idea of the “immortal soul,” a concept that does not exist in the Bible. (For more on annihilation in the Lake of Fire, see commentary on Rev. 20:10).
“life in the Age to come.” [See Appendix 2.]
I’m going to complicate the issue even more…and I’m sorry not to have a link to give you. You seem like someone who is interested in these kind of word studies so maybe you know if this is accurate or not:
Someone else pointed out to me that the word for “punishment” in the sheep/goat passage is a Greek word that has more of a correction/discipline/child-training/restorative/purifying focus than “punishment” does in English. They said there is a much harsher word in Greek that is often used for punishment but that is not the word used here.
Re: your message above this one to me on aion
Strong’s concordance: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity
I am not denying that “eternal” means forever. I am wondering if the English “eternal” is the best translation of the Greek “aion” I saw someone on a website today state that there are some Bible translations that are beginning to translate aion as “age-long”. (Haven’t had time today to hunt down all these Web rumors LOL)
Anyway I have just started looking into these types of things and I am amazed at how many views there are and how heated the debates can get! It is frustrating that the church cannot come to a consensus. I do like your view of annihilationism better than the eternal, conscious torment my tradition teaches! ( Hope those terms are OK – not sure what the politically correct ones would be.) Well, enjoy your studies. Thank you for the time you have spent to respond to me.
Lisa, here is where I get my bible commentary from.
http://www.stfonline.org/rev/
Also of interest concerning this thread are appendix 4 “The dead are dead” and Appendix 5 “Annihilation in the lake of fire”
Tony, Lisa, and Emilio,
Great discussion here!
Just for my own personal clarification, I do believe in eternal separation from God. I do not believe in universalism or annihilationism.
As for the places in the Bible that seem to refer to “hell,” what we need to do is study the words that are being used and the original contexts in which they were used. One of the main reasons people believe in a fiery suffering torment for the unredeemed today is because of terrible English translations of the various Greek and Hebrew words, and because people do not understand the symbolism behind words such as “fire” or “outer darkness” or “weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
I will write a lot more about this in the future to explain my view more fully.
Oh, I love everything you write and was surprised to see that you do not believe in universalism (christian universalism I mean, which is salvation of the world in Jesus Christ-restoration of all things)!! Please read:
“You are dust and into dust you shall return”, God said to Adam after the fall. Perishable cannot inherit unperishable. All our earthly lives and bodies are perishable, starting from Adam on. And that “eternal result“ of going back to dust is indeed eternal. That’s why we need to become NEW creation. That are NOT created from the dust that is perishable in the first place. If God made Adam from the dust, is it impossible for Him to re-create all those who perished (are dead, or annihilated) into new creation? What or WHO will prevent Him to fully complete His will of salvation of the WORLD? Perishable humans? Satan? All the perishable stuff in human race is bound to PERISH, to die, to be annihilated if you will. Indeed, „By the SPIRIT put to DEATH the deeds of the body“. What?! What kind of death this is? The BENEFICIAL death of perishable, or annihilation of perishable that is GOOD ! There is no annihilation of that which is eternal. Adam was still alive in his flesh when God said he was dead. How come? Because he had no God’s life in him as he missed to “LIVE by EVERY word that proceeds out of His mouth.” In the beginning that word of life was: “do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” So in “Adam ALL die(d)”. But the same verse continues: “so in Christ all will be made ALIVE.” If “all” in Christ are not actually “all” – then all those who die(d) in Adam are not “all” either!!! But the thing is: “If you are in Christ your body is DEAD because of sin, but your spirit is living because of righteousness. “EVERYBODY in Adam is DEAD because of sin! But not everybody is made alive by His Spirit in righteousness… YET. In God’s eyes, YES, they are ALIVE in Christ, as He sees the work as finished already. For Him, the world is already reconciled with Him in Christ, meaning ALL is bound to be „made ALIVE“. But since the flesh of many still rebels against God -only when this flesh comes to nothing (perishes, dies, or is annihilated), and man’s stubborn will is silenced- God’s will (salvation of the world) will be fully complete. Otherwise, if Jesus does not actually save 100% of the world, how on earth is He the “Saviour of the World“? Mission uncomplished ?? Mission accomplished only “potentialy”?? 99,9% of the world is simply not enough! God gave His Son for 100%!! Was it invane? Too big of a sacrifice for mission uncomplished?!? The question is: will God get LESS than He paid for (excuse me for speaking in commercial terms)?? Whose WILL then will prevail? God’s will is for all to be saved! Are you saying that it will be satan’s will at the end? Because Satan’s will is destruction (annihilation) of human race! He will be successful even if there is 1 person lost or „eternally separated“ from God.
Revelation 21 says „there will be NO MORE DEATH for the former things have passed away.“!! I believe THAT is the end. Annihilation or destruction of perishable is NOT the end yet. The NEW CREATION is the end (of old) and the new beginning. The book of Revelation is NOT chronological, I believe. So whenever I see that there is „death“ in some form, it means the new life is not yet fully in place. Because in Christ ALL will be made ALIVE and God will be ALL in ALL (1st Corinthians). Death does not go “forever” (whatever the greek actual meaning is), LIFE does, since God is LIFE. Only the death of perishable and rebellious stuff is eternal (its consequences are eternal, which means „old has passed away“).
The 2nd death is, i believe, the cleaning, purifying DEATH of the 1st DEATH that killed us all in Adam! 2nd DEATH, that purifying death by which „we put to death deeds of the body by the Spirit“ is death of „old“ and „perishable“ – which finally result in life. Yes, the flesh indeed suffers when immersed in that kind of death! The fire is burning among us.
But everyone who negates that 100% of the world will be indeed made alive in Christ – demeans the authority and will of God to make ALIVE and upholds the ability and will of the one who is destructor and annihilator of human race, who is a liar since day one. I reccomend articles and studies on tentmaker.org.
I will tell you what. I will leave after this post. Your assertion of “Calvinistic system used groupthink” is nothing more than a theological curse word to avoid the issue . Post modern mindsets that avoid legitimate argument in order to maintain views are nothing more than non rational emotion laden tantrums. That being said I wish you well.
“Fire in Scripture, when used symbolically, always refers to judgment.”
I have heard it said (although I have not done the research to verify it), that when fire is used symbolically in scripture it usually refers to _purification_, like the ‘refining fire’. I like this view of fire — that which is not of value is burned away, and what is pure and holy remains. So it leads me to view the ‘fire of hell’ in a different light. What if that process is one of purification, instead of a means of eternal torture?
Another problem I have with eternal conscious torment is that it assumes that all mankind is immortal (or that God grants immortality to those who he then proceeds to torture). I haven’t seen a good basis for this made from scripture. Mark, in his comment above, notes John 3:16 — whoever believes in Jesus will not… be tortured in a lake of fire forever? No; whoever believes in him will not perish/cease to exist. Following Christ is compelling enough on its own without the need for someone to scare me into the kingdom with the threat of burning in hell forever.
Yes, I think that “purification” might be a good synonym for the word “fire” in the Bible. The Greek word for fire is “pur.” In fact, this is the origin for the word “purgatory.”
I, of course, don’t believe in a purgatory, but the concept is there.
I am also not an annihilationist, though I fully understand why some hold this view and I do not criticize them for it.
Maybe I’m scapegoating – and for that I apologize. There’s such a long track record of “debating” – that ends up being endless words that represent concrete classical dogma. Your responses suggest it. Maybe you are more reasonable than that. I hope. I just see that when you say Jeremy is substituting a “better life” for the gospel, you portray yourself as one who knows what the gospel is – without any wavering. Do you not “know in part?” I certainly do. You do come across as if you have no questions concerning the mystery and hidden aspect of Jesus’ teachings of the Kingdom of God.
No I AM NOT THE ORACLE. When Jeremy writes so definitively that the most important thing is ” but can simply invite them into a way of life is that is better than anything else the world has to offer.” that is heretical. I know that’s a strong word- but let God be true and every man a liar. John 3:16 states “For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not PERISH but have ever lasting life”. If you notice PERISH comes before life- He wants men and women not to perish- If one doesn’t believe they PERISH- which means they are out of God’s presence and care for all of eternity- that is HELL. After accepting Christ they have life and can live life in a better way than what the world has to offer. The way Jeremy talks would be no different a claim than a person from Scientology or Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons or any cult or change your life psychologically manipulative group. I use heretical because the primary purpose of Christ’s coming is so clear- it was to SAVE us. After we are saved our life truly begins. HELL is something I NEVER start with- but is it sometimes effective? Martin Luther and Augustine struggled with it to lead them to Christ. I struggled with it- is it the first choice? Probably not. But when Jeremy suggests its wholly illegitimate I say the Word of God says that’s not true. –Finally NO I AM NOT THE ORACLE ON THEOLOGY BUT I am called to be discerning and I have no problem with theological differences and disagreements, however to me this is fundamental. Again I state if we approach a non believer and offer them a changed life they have MANY MANY choices in the market places of ideas to choose. If however we offer them the Crucified and Risen Savior as a way to be right with the Living God- we give them the whole TRUTH! -I know in this day and age its unpopular to be dogmatic however God calls us to speak THE TRUTH IN LOVE- never one without the other.
I didn’t get past your first sentence before this verse came to mind:
“I came that they might have life and have it abundantly” John 10:10
….so I don’t think Jeremy is wrong to invite people to a better way of life. Jesus described His mission the same way.
Well played, madam, well played!
Nice.
Mark, it is time to back off. It is appropriate to disagree and to explain your viewpoint, but is is not appropriate to go onto another person’s blog and call them a heretic or a cult. If you think you must do such things, then your blog would be the appropriate place to do that. Everyone understands your point. Argumentativeness and name-calling are not advancing your position, but rather detract from it. You are going to have to become accustomed to the fact that not everyone agrees with you, and so it will always be.
I’m new to Christian forums–is there an equivalent to Godwin’s Law on these forums? Godwin’s Law states that if an online discussion goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism. Is there an equivalent rule on Christian forums when someone pops the pin on a holy hand grenade and accuses another Christian of heresy, blasphemy, apostasy, etc.?
You are funny. Yes, such things happen on Christian blogs, but are often deleted by the moderator.
Godwin’s law. I love it! We need one for the comment sections I guess.
I don’t mind being called a heretic. It just saddens me that people would rather condemn others as heretics than discuss kindly, graciously, and lovingly the disagreements they may have.
Oh well, thank you everyone for the discussion here while I was gone from the internet this past week.
Wow….
Mark – when was Nichodemus saved?
Was Dismas saved?
Irrelevant to the argument. The argument is whether hell is ever a legitimate way to convict people of their need for Christ. No one is answering that. Nicodemus was saved after He understood the message of Jesus. Born again . The Pharisees were warned that they would need to trust Jesus or the consequence would be they would die in their sins. The fact is once a legitimate use of stating the consequence for disbelief is made then it is legitimate to use in evangelism- maybe not first but definitely a part of the message.
So it *is* relevant to scare people into grace – correct Mark?
I’m not afraid of hell. But I DO fear God, the all consuming fire who CAN destroy body and soul in hell.
That is probably a text I should try to explain in my future study of hell.
I guess Jesus did it with the Pharisees. –
Jeff I am through my friend. We disagree and its okay to disagree. God Bless.
I am sorry you are withdrawing. You made some great points, and I hope you noticed that Jeremy himself was not the one responding with outrage. He is happy for people to make their point provided it is not abusive. Hopefully you will return soon.
Suzanne,
Part of my lack of response was simply because I was gone for a week…. But even still, I tend not to get upset by people disagreeing with my view, even if they get upset and start calling names.
I just don’t want readers to start being abusive to other readers!
Grace and peace to you too.
The interesting thing about this whole debate is how our ideas of how we interpret what the Bible says about what hell would be like have changed over time. Modern Western Christian writers tend to think being alone is the worst thing ever. Writers from times gone by seem to have focused more on the physical torment side. Christians from parts of the world where life is harder can sometimes have a different view of hell again.
There’s no theological view in this comment, just some impressions from my own reading. Happy to stand corrected with a detailed bibliography containing more than one publication.
i am convinced that each of us will have the experience of God’s love and if we are rejected by God, we will spend an eternity regretting our actions that caused the rejection. That is as major part of Hell.
Leroy,
Yes, I agree. I think a huge part of “hell” is not necessarily physical torment, but the separation and regret that comes from willingly living apart from God.
Cathy,
Very interesting! I really like how you have noticed some of the values of our society, and how these values have changed over the past 2000 years so that the worst thing we can imagine may not be the worst thing they could imagine. Hmmm. This requires more thought…
I find it interesting that whenever one challenges the traditional interpretation of scripture there is always someone who will shout ‘heretic!’ Of course in the past the church has followed this up not with debate but by burning the heretic at the stake. After all a few minutes suffering being burned alive is nothing compared with what God is going to do with them in hell, so the reasoning ran. Fortunately we live in an age where we can examine doctrine against scripture without the fear of torture and I’m grateful for that. The worse that can be done is for us to be excluded from our local church. Why do some Christians feel so threatened when things like the churches teaching on hell are challenged? Surely, if the traditional view of hell is correct, and completely lines up with scripture, why the worry when someone dares to look at the belief?
I remember reading The Great Divorce a number of years ago, and at the time I thought it had a lot going for it. For one thing it seems to line up with the way God judges the world as Paul reveals in Romans 1. In that chapter he repeatedly talks about God’s judgement by saying he ‘gave them up to’ Rom1:,24,26,28. In these verses we see how God punishes humankind by granting us our own way. By no longer restraining the worst of sin. What if the burning is the burning away of all that is good, like the opposite of 1cor.3: 12-15? I am speculating here of course.
So for me the idea that hell is the ultimate ‘giving up’ of people to their evil desires, so that all that is good in them is removed, has some merit. To have every restraint, and every good thing taken away because God is no longer there to hold back our excesses or to make the ‘sun shine on the unrighteous’, would be hell indeed. But ultimately it will be their choice.
I think this is at least worth considering. What do others think?
By the way, at the moment I’m working my way through http://youall.com/HELL/index.htm as well as reading Jeremy’s blog. I’m still open minded about what I believe at the moment, although I do find myself moving away from at least some of the traditional views about hell.
I like the idea of “giving up” of people to their evil desires. We see this terminology ALL OVER in the Scriptures, and I think it accurately reflects what God really does not only for the judgment that comes upon as as a result of sin, but also what God does regarding people’s eternal destinies.
I am going to check out that youall.com site… Thanks for the link!
To Lisa, I am a student of Greek (no claim to being an expert) and those who know more than me, Strong, Vine, etc.. claim the Greek word aiónios, means ageless, and unending—John 6:47 uses the same Greek word, and Jesus is NOT promising an age, a term or some set period, but because time does not apply, i.e. never ends, eternal is the perfect English word.
Jeremy, does not Jude declare pulling out of the very fire those who are in danger of it, with fear, on our and their part. I will wholly agree that love is the best motivator (and evangelism toll) but fear can help, too.
Love you Brother, God bless
Tony,
Yes. I am in agreement with what you wrote here. We are not too far off from each other. I just don’t read the word “fire” in Jude as a reference to eternal punishment in a firey location…
Jeremy,
I so appreciate your post. I am of the opinion (yep my opinion) that hell is seperation and that seperation may be the fire that we often associate with hell.
Thanks for thought provoking BLOG.
Is it the separation that Jesus vocalized on the cross? “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Would you say He was experiencing hell when He became sin for us?
Tony Vance, I am not trying to argue – I am a learner and trying to understand these concepts.
If I type “aionos – Strong’s” into my search engine it takes me to Biblehub.com and the definition there under the heading Strong’s Concordance is:
an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity
I don’t understand how I am misinterpreting aion to refer to “an age” based on this definition from Strong’s Concordance. I will look up Vine’s. Thank you for your time.
infinity-you missed infinity
I am reading it this way:
infinity refers to the series of ages, it doesn’t define an age
each individul age is not an infinity
each age has a beginning and an end, there are an infinite number of ages
Revelations 14:6 answers it very clear-the gospel is eternal not for an age
the question is whether punishment is “eternal” in Matthew 25 or whether it is age-long
we have not been considering the phrase eternal gospel
Tony , I apologize. I went back to our original thread and realized we have been talking past each other!
I have been trying to understand the phrase “eternal punishment” in the sheep/goats parable of Matthew 25. I have been in other conversations about this passage and confused you with those.
I see your original post was about another verse and I had responded with my understanding of “aion” and we went from there…..I have had Matthew 25 in mind all along but you have had other verses. Perhaps that is why we have not been understanding each other’s questions/comments.
My study right now is focused on understanding “aion” if indeed, it refers to a cycle of time as Strong’s states. That is where my head has been and I thought you were there to. I am sorry for the confusion. I will have to go back and reread where i got off track.
Lisa and Tony,
I love the gracious, kind discussion you both are having! This is the way it should be when two believers have disagreements. It is a beautiful thing to see and read.
I agree with points that both of you make and am studying all of this right along with both of you. Let’s all keep challenging each other and studying more!
Strong’s is useful, but you have to know its limtations.
One of those limitations is that it only segregates words by their root.
A second limitation is that it only provides a scant minimum of secondary and tertiary meanings.
Jeremy – have you read “Hope Beyond Hell”? I found it very helpful and would be interested in your thoughts on it. Free download at http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/pdf/Hope_Beyond_Hell_Unabridged.pdf
Thanks. No, I have not read it, but am headed over to do so right now.
Jeremy,
Have to pretty much agree with everything you said in this post and the previous post. Instead of seeing Jesus drawing the dichotomy of heaven and hell, I am convinced that He is instead drawing the dichotomy of Life and not life. He promisses over and over again the experience of real-fulfilling-never ending-God connected-life here and now, or you can have a living hell here and now. I see his ministry more of inviting people to experience life as it was meant to be lived by the Loving-Creator-God instead of continuing the futility of a life without God. Thank you for your study and faithful exegesis,
Pastor FedEx
Thanks, FedEx.
Have you talked much about this with some of the guys in your Bible study groups? I am curious to know what they think too. It sounds like you and I are thinking in parallel.
Maybe you heard the saying that says, Preaching the good news is like building a mansion next to their shack. What is going to happen is the people hearing the gospel are going to want the mansion. It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance. I agree the hell message is unfruitful.
If I could see in scripture the evidence for a hell of everlasting torment then so be it but not only do I not see it but I do see overwhelming scriptural evidence that the fate of the wicked is death.
Death is the absence of life.
If anyone is interested, I have a quiz on hell that might help. Email me and I’ll send it to you in a Word document.
em*************@co*****.net
Thanks Emilio and Martin,
I love that imagery of the mansion. When we truly understand and preach the Good News of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, it is exactly like building a beautiful mansion and then inviting people to come live in it.
The Gospel, when rightly presented, is compelling because of its beauty and grandeur.
Psalms 68:2 – As smoke is driven away, [so] drive [them] away: as wax melteth before the fire, [so] let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
Ok? What are you saying by quoting that verse?
I find this post disturbing on several levels. first, I don’t see hell fire and brimstone preaching used as an evangelistic tool by churches. Do some churches teach it as you’ve described? Yes, it is a remnant of a bygone era. What I see today, that has overtaken the scare tactics of churches, is the seeker sensitive mentality. The mega church environment that wants to bring people to Christ with nothing but teaching on the benefits of a loving God. No demands. No suffering. No service. Lets remove the cross because it is too disturbing, and no mention of hell or punishment!
Second, I disagree with your views here. I am going to say this with reservation Jeremy…I sometimes wonder if you look for Biblical discussions that contradict tradition, and mainstream beliefs so as to generate response and blog traffic. If the most important aspect of the gospel is sharing God’s love, and a better life, then why post a blog on hell fire teaching and in doing so place the focus on the very thing you disagree with?
Lastly, I find it disturbing the way many Christians interact on blog sites. The bickering, name calling, and argumentation on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin does not draw people to Christ.
Ward,
Maybe I have just been in different Christian circles than you. I find this approach to evangelism and the Gospel everywhere. It seems to be everywhere I look. If your experience is different, then that is fine. I do not doubt your experience. But I am truthfully stating my experience.
Anyway, do I look for controversial topics? No. I write about what interests me. I have questions about hell, so I write about it. I have questions about the violence of God, so I write about it. I have questions about homosexuality, the church, and female pastors, so I write about it. If I did not write about things that did not interest me, I would not write at all.
I am definitely not a traditionalist, though I do hold to nearly all the main traditional, historic, orthodox doctrines of Christianity.
Hi everyone,
I was considering a couple of places to post this but I had a hard time deciding.
I’ve read a lot of the more controversial postings recently (such as the recent ones on Hell and Homosexuality as well as some older ones about the definition of the gospel) where it seems that the debates in the comment section always fail (at least for me) to help those who are trying to learn. There’s often just too much heresy hunting and both sides failing to acknowledge the good in the opposing positions which makes for a bad learning environment. I’ve also read the posts on war and even saw the military mentioned in the sinful employment post. I mention this because I believe there’s an important lesson about spiritual warfare that we as Christians need to understand in order to be gracious to each other yet learn truth together.
If you ask a soldier why they fight you may get an answer you were not expecting. It’s not to destroy and kill an enemy, it’s not to serve the powers that be, especially at the expense of the people (as someone in another post believed), and it’s not just for freedom. No, we fight for our brothers and sisters who are right next to us. That’s why those soldiers in wars past marched forward in the face of destruction and that’s why soldiers today show the innumerable examples of courage they do today.
Obviously the overall objective of a war is to win it and thankfully Jesus Christ has already won the war for us, but there are many battles for all of us daily. We do well to seek victory in those battles through God’s strength and promises but we too often not only forget our brothers and sisters in these battles but we even wrongly direct our attack towards them when they are confused on scripture or have a different understanding. The enemy is not your fellow Christian but Satan himself who uses his attacks to confuse us and then cause us to bicker, point the finger, and condemn. If you want to effectively defend from the attack you should not only set up defenses but also have a plan to counterattack. When confusion and disagreement is the weapon the defense is to stop the name calling and bitterness and the counterattack is to approach the tough scriptures together one at a time and work through them meticulously with truth as your goal rather than an arrogant confirmation of your views (regardless of whether or not you are right). I firmly believe God’s truth will become abundantly clear to all if we approached our discussions this way and that we would gain great fellowship within ourselves and God.
I close by saying that this applies not only to believers but nonbelievers as well. They are not the enemy we should be attacking either. They are casualties caught in Satan’s relentless onslaught of lies, hate, sin, and misery without any protection because they do not know Christ. These are the men and women across the country who can get kicked out of their residences because of their sexual orientation, the young girl who is shamed because she went to a party, got drunk, was raped, and is considering abortion, the person who thinks they are saved by works or their religion, etc. What does a spiritual soldier do? They do not further would the casualty and bash the person over the head with your spiritual weapons and condemn or stay safe within their church walls, instead they put themselves in front of the enemy and protect those who cannot protect themselves. Jesus saw when he walked the Earth that the fields were white already to harvest. If we show these people the love that a spiritual soldier should show we would never need to worry about compromising truth to win them over. While we cannot win them all I guarantee that it is that kind of love which wins souls. I challenge everyone (myself included) to become effective in this fight from here on out.
Thank you, Justin , for reminding us who the real enemy is. I am easily deceived by him.
Thanks Lisa! Every last one of us falls into one of his many traps all too often.
Justin,
Great comment about the war we are currently in. Due to the disagreements we humans sometimes have with other, we often forget the truth of what Paul wrote, that our struggle is not against flesh and blood…
Each of us, despite our differences in theology or morality, are not the enemy. Great points and good reminder. Thank you!
Great debate and what a spectrum of views.
Can I first answer to Justin regarding military occupation.
Most definitely.
I was a soldier in the princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment. I was saved before I left the army in a pretty dramatic way. I remember praying one night while on stag. It was night time and the sky was clear and the moon was bright. I was the only one awake and I was talking to god. I felt so close to him that night and then I suddenly felt an overwhelming sense of what I was before the Lord. My face covered in camo cream, and SA80 assault rifle in my hands I felt the Lord tell me I had to lay it down to follow him. In the morning I told the guys that I was leaving the army to follow God. At that point the comradeship stopped the friendships stopped. From that point on I had nothing else ion common with those guys. There is absolutely no way on the face of the earth that you can follow Jesus and at the same time justify the notion of firing bullets at another human being. It is totally incompatible with the teachings of Christ and always will be. Granted God will use army’s but it all boils down to what it is you want god to use you for. Marching forward bravely to face your enemy while you have a gun in your hand is not remotely as brave as marching forward to face your enemy with a knowledge of Jesus. No one who serves in the military is totally devoted to Jesus and No one who serves in the military can ever tell me they have an intimate relationship with Jesus.
Hell? look at the rich man and Lazarus story, Abraham said there was a great chasm set between the rich man and where Abraham was. The rich man was in torment and he begged that someone would be sent to warn others.. can you imagine the agony of having actually seen heaven and not being able to go there?
No one likes the notion of hell but Jesus did say to those who baffed on about all the things THEY DID for him and he said away from me I never knew you. These were believers in Christ who knew of the Lord and lived their lives for him and he didn’t even know them. The most important lesson here is remembering what Jesus came here for.. to show us the way. He demonstrated the way and we are supposed to follow. Then you will know suffering and in that suffering you will know him. The flesh you live in will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I think I’m going to place my trust in what Christ has done to secure my salvation and not my chosen occupation. If the lord does find it to be sinful however I do hope that he will convict me as he has with you. Thank you for the input.
There is a hell, there are many warnings of hades. Jesus went there and he came back with the keys.
Justin,
You are right that your occupation has nothing to do with salvation otherwise I wouldn’t have ben saved myself.
I also want you to know that I never try to convict people of anything, that’s the job of the holy spirit.
The instance I gave where God told me to leave the military was around a year after I was saved.
What I do like is your comment that you will hear the Lord before to tell you what to do, not men. That’s the kind of comment from someone who knows his voice.
You posted a comment that read ”the enemy is not your fellow Christian”, I agree (how can you not) but then you also tackle the way fellow Christians interact with each other to which your comments were sound and true. I hope my post was not seen as another one of those self righteous babblings about how we all should be living, you are my brother and I am yours, lets spur each other on towards the goal to which we have been called.
Hi Tony,
I saw that I did that too and I apologize. I’m just as challenged by that call as anyone else. I must admit my last post came out of a bit of fear as I really don’t want to be wrong in my beliefs. I really do appreciate your opinion and agree that the military and its members can and have been used for ungodly purposes. War is one of the worst things to ever come into this world and to be honest I would much rather never have to fire a weapon at another human being. I don’t think anyone who’s seen war or at least understands a part of it ever really wants it. The ones who do are indeed struggling with some dark, dark stuff in their hearts. God bless and I hope to hear from you around the blog.
Wonderfully written Jeremy. I agree 100%, we’ve gotten the idea of hell all wrong.
Folks like Jonathan Edwards and Dante have done a lot of damage in shaping our cultural view of who God is and how he relates to us.
This way of thinking about the character of God and hell is so strong that even when the veil is lifted and you see that it’s nonsense it’s still extremely difficult to shake off.
Keep up the great posts.
Thanks, Dan! Hell is a challenging subject, and I have recently had some good conversations with some other authors about it, and hope to write more on the subject in the near future.
Looking forward to it. It seems to be a topic more writers and theologians are tackling.
I agree in most part of what Jeremy has written on Hell, although I believe it is actually a place where there is a chasm that cannot be crossed and that has been set in place by God. Where I agree with Jeremy is the translation of what this place is, to have seen heaven and glimpsed our Lord but never being able to cross over. God granting our desire to live apart from him. The fire of hell is going to be that all consuming grief of realising there is now no more chances of getting it right.
I spoke of the Jesus believing people whom Jesus sent away, even though they thought they did all they did in service to Jesus and more besides, thing to point out here is the fact that when they met Jesus their speech to him was didn’t we do that and didn’t we do this, that’s where we fall most of the time.
In my own personal walk with our Lord I have had to admit and acknowledge that this body I am living in actually hates our Lord, it detest the things of god and will fight against everything he calls me to do, since it belongs to the dust and yet while draws breath will do all it can to answer the call of demons for as long as I live in it I am in danger of being dragged away by its desires. The only thing that I can cling to is the power of Christ in me and even then at times I have found myself backtracking to find where I have left his presence again.
When I read the disciples accounts after they have met Jesus they all talk in the same way, longing for a home they do not yet have but living with this battle that rages within.
It actually does feel like your living like an alien here on earth, all I can do is hope for what at times seems like an uncertain future and trust that the power of our Lord will get me to that place where I can eventually fall into his arms, where he will reach out his hand when he sees me and place it on my face and say hello Tony. In that place we will all be one day, it is a personal place where we will stand alone, no wives, no friends, no husbands or wives it is just you and him. For him to tell me the battle is now over, and I can now rest. until that day I can never give up on trying to master the sin that is forever crouching at my door.
To be honest, if the flames of hell turn out to be real flames I would rather burn to ash than experience what Lazarus felt.
I apologize for not keeping up in the forum here, and will set aside some time to do so ‘if the Lord is willing and the crick don’t rise’. I have seen, participated in, and been humbled for being quick to wield the “double-edged sword”. Any one who knows about knife-fights will tell you that almost surely everyone involved will get cut no matter the outcome.
For me, the best quick answer to the issue is plain: The Gospel according to Jesus Christ is not that sinners go to Hell.
There are many I’ve known who are actually flippant about challenges to their belief-system, yet we are not saved by our belief-system no matter how valid it truly is to have a solid belief system. We are saved by faith in God through Jesus Christ by the sealing of the Holy Spirit unto the day of our redemption. That redemption has not come about yet, for we have received only God’s pledge or downpayment. While we know God is good for His promises, we must not mistake our hope in His bringing our salvation with Him when He returns.
My father once spoke to his church that the Church is the only Army in the world that shoots its wounded. Well, however the facts may be, it is a worthy observation. I have read the thread to this point, and have seen wisdom, humility, conviction, pontification, and more. This is what we should anticipate when dealing with a family of people who are not yet perfected. We are, as has been stated herein, aliens and strangers in this world and its cultures. I would only hope we recognize that our new nature (which cannot sin) is alien to our old-nature we drag with us, and it is by God’s grace any of us are subject to God’s conforming us into the image of The Son and building us up as a whole with all the saints into the full measure of spiritual adulthood belonging to the Humanity of our great God and Savior Jesus our Lord and Master.
I welcome all comments, suggestions, heckles, and rebukes.
your fellow suffering-servant,
gregory
By the way Jeremy, thanks for the free book offer of late. I just today downloaded it.
Gregory,
I think your comment will be well received by most of the people here. Few rebukes should be headed your way! What you have written is similar to a lot of what others have said elsewhere on this blog. You have found some people with common ideas!
Thanks for downloading the book. Hope you enjoy it.
Hi Jeremy,
Saw this while reading through Jude. It seemed like the last two verses in this passage mention saving with fear. What is your opinion on what this means? It sounds to me like it’s speaking about unbelievers because it mentions not having the Spirit.
Jude 1:17-23 :But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
And of some have compassion, making a difference:
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Excellent question. I am not sure the “others” of Jude 23 points back to those described in Jude 18-19. It could be, I suppose.
But either way, I don’t think the “fire” of Jude 23 refers to hell, but rather to the temporal inferno that is brought into our lives as a result of sin. So the “save” is not “save from hell” but “save from the disastrous consequences of sin in this life.”