Close Your Church for Good is a book about deconstructing the church. It has argued that to be and do all that Jesus desires, the church must transform itself from a property-holding, power-wielding, people-controlling institution, and become a relational-driven, service-oriented, self-sacrificial incarnation of Jesus Christ.
Yet at the end of this book, you may be left wondering what is left of the church as we know it? I have suggested we give up our clergy and our buildings, that we cancel the Sunday service, the prayer meetings, and all other church programs. I called on pastors to stop preaching, and church leadership to get rid of their doctrinal statement. I invited Christians to stop evangelizing. If a church actually did all this, what would be left?
What does church look like without a building, a pastor, a Sunday service, a weekly prayer meeting, or evangelism outreach? Without all these activities to maintain, what else is left for the church to do?
The answer is why I have written this book. All of these things that are associated and identified with church usually do not help us accomplish the mission Jesus gave us as the church. It is far more likely that they hinder our mission rather than help. While closing your church, canceling your service, and resigning as pastor may feel like the death of your church, it is actually only the first step toward a resurrection, a transformation from church as we know it to church as Jesus meant it to be.
And what did Jesus mean for the church to be? What will happen if we have the courage to sell our buildings, cancel our services, and resign as pastor? What will the church look like if we stop chasing after the devilish pursuits of power, control, money, authority, recognition, glory, and fame?
It will look like Jesus.
Can you get me a copy so I can write a review? I know that I know that I know this one is going to rank as “worth reading”! I try to strike while the iron is hot and publish reviews within a week or two of release, if not before.
This is nothing short of a revolutionary challenge to our thinking, and for that matter the teaching of Jesus.
May we be more inclined like the Berean’s and seek the lead, and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
May we come and reason together, and my we place the desire and will of Christ first, and foremost.
Thanks Jeremy for your ministry.
Okay, if this is meant to be sarcastically, I would like to know the punch line. If not, I strongly disagree since it totally contradicts what God has ordained: to esablish the church. And if you bring up that Jesus did not have a building, I will be shocked. Jesus was traveling going to different places in His 3.5 years ministry. Plus, he was born under the Law, which, not surprising, had a very ornate and beautiful Temple to worship that was ordained by God (build by Solomn and then rebuild after the pos-exilic period). Jesus did not mock the Temple but the legalism and religiosity apart from having a real relationship with God. Jeremy I don’t know whether you’re quoting someone or these are your comments. But whoever is making such contradictory and silly staments—in the name of Christianity—ought to be ashamed. I’ve seen too many of these anti=church and anti-organizational rhetoric coming from you Jeremy. I know you had a bad experience with some Christians (that you and I know. But so have many others and I. But don’t swing to the other extreme). Try holding church under a tree today to see how many people you can reach. I truly hope no one buys this view and can see through it—by using Scripture.
Rene,
These are fully my views, and I stand by them as the exegetically defensible views of Scripture. I am not ant-church, however. I am as pro-church as they come! I am all for a church that looks more like Jesus and less like a business or an empire.
I would never suggest someone try holding a church under a tree. But I have suggested, and practice this myself, that the church go to the parks and the streets, to the homes of our neighbors, and tangibly show others the love of Jesus. This looks so much more like Jesus than sitting in a pew on a Sunday morning listening to a seminary trained Ph.D. wax eloquent about the meaning of Greek words.
Leah McConnell Randall,
I am still months away from releasing! Maybe a year or more! Ha. The rough draft is done, but now it needs some serious editing. It is sitting at 150,000 words right now.
Leah McConnell Randall,
Oh…. of course, when it is done, you may certainly have a complimentary copy for reading and review!
Obviously, I know you love the Lord, and make some good points that we’ve all known for a while now. (e.g., “But I have suggested, and practice this myself, that the church go to the parks and the streets, to the homes of our neighbors, and tangibly show others the love of Jesus. This looks so much more like Jesus than sitting in a pew on a Sunday morning listening to a seminary trained Ph.D. wax eloquent about the meaning of Greek words”). Good! However, don’t through the baby out with the bath water. The fact that people ought to be doing what you say and can hear a a good-biblically-trained speaker (that may or may not have a Ph.D) while they sit in a pew, or fold-away chair, or wherever or however should not be looked at mutually exclusive points. So, are you now anti-instutional/seminary/Bible college training as well, after you’ve received a BA (or BS?) and a Th.M.? If the church would train people regoriously the way they should (well by showing them the milk and the deeper truth of Scripture) we would not need seminaries. Listen, I know enough to know that not knowing enough and getting a group to follow is dangerous and knowing too much but uisng it in a wrong way is also dangerously? Anyway, I hope your tribe does not increase:-)
Sister Rene (sorry, I lack the know how to accent your name properly… I should know better, being from Canada),
Regarding your question to Jeremy:
“The fact that people ought to be doing what you say and can hear a a good-biblically-trained speaker (that may or may not have a Ph.D) while they sit in a pew, or fold-away chair, or wherever or however should not be looked at mutually exclusive points. So, are you now anti-instutional/seminary/Bible college training as well, after you’ve received a BA (or BS?) and a Th.M.?”
My response (also in a comment below): How do we so often forget where it was that the first disciples got their “Christian ministry training”?…
Acts 4:13 “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.”
It was then the Spirit of Jesus who was filling them (and not just the “apostles” either; notice Stephen in Chapters 6&7), giving them the boldness AND the words. It is that same Jesus now… IF we are following Him into the world, eh?
Also take note of the “all”s in 1 Cor.14: “For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not [the author] of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.”
All does not mean just those who have had formal/academic bible training. All means all. He is our guide into all of Him, the Truth. He is our Shephered, our Teacher, and our Life… the I AM, the all in all.
With much love in Christ,
-Mark
Rene,
I hope I have not thrown the baby out with the bathwater… I am trying not to at least. It is a fine and delicate line. I do fear that many in the traditional church have done just that, however. So many are so focused on academic pursuits and gaining more Bible knowledge that we have abandoned our responsibility to follow Jesus into the world.
I agree that there is a lot of zeal without knowledge out there. I hope to do my part to rectify that. I do think there is still a place for advanced degrees and formal seminary education. I might even go on to get my Ph.D. someday….
Regarding my tribe…. the statistics are in…. we are increasing faster than any other tribe in the world! 🙂
You have not thrown the baby out with the bathwater, Jeremy. Your scripture basis is sound and there is no scripture basis for what American Evangelicals know as “church”. The word isn’t even the same word Jesus used. And yes…we are increasing, but we are “decreasing” at the same time…so that Christ might increase. Don’t backdown, prophet. I see “Christ in you, the hope of glory”. Many will accuse you of “attacking the bride” because they can’t distinguish her from the thing called church. Jesus has revealed her to you as He sees her and you are defending that which the bridegroom intended from the start. It’s not the “deeper truth of scripture” the church has failed in teaching. It’s the “deeper Truth of Christ”.
That’s my brother, Will Rochow, for you. You anti-seminary-education, too, Will? 😉
I’m getting my seminary education without spending a cent on tuition, Will. You and Jeremy are serving both as my “peers” and my “mentors”…oh wait…the mentor is “Chrsit in you.”. 🙂
Leah, I wish I would have learned that before spending thousands of $$$ on my seminary degree. Since leaving the “pastorate” over 10 years ago, I came to see the “everyone has” of 1 Cor.14:26 in a new way, namely that we all learn from each other and not just a select few behind a pulpit. Today I really believe that such learning is what Jesus had in mind.
Will (you are Will at “Rethinking Faith…” correct?),
I have long found 1 Cor. 14 very intriguing for more reasons than simly a tongues issue or gender roles. I’m sure you have taken notice of verses 31-33 too!
“For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not [the author] of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.”
I too have been professionally trained in “Biblical Studies”; just a Canadian prairies institution, not Dallas or anything. 😉 Even though I’m not really impressed by such things (never really was)… Wow Mike! That’s an impressive collection of post-name capital letters. You certainly have “been there, and done that”. I thought I had… but not to that extent!
Rock on (on the Rock of ages) all you ex-clergy and never clergy alike! Ain’t it great to revel in our common brotherhood and His humility?
How do we so often forget where it was that the first disciples got their “Christian ministry training”?…
Acts 4:13 “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.”
It was then the Spirit of Jesus who was filling them (and not just the “apostles” either; notice Stephen in Chapters 6&7), giving them the boldness AND the words. It is that same Jesus now… IF we are following Him into the world, eh?
See you all soon; here, there, or in the air (sorry about any eschatological stances that infers).
-M.
Nicely put, Mark.
Yes, I am the “Will” at “Rethinking Faith and Church.” Another Canadian, eh? 😉
Blessings
Jeremy:
I too support your Jeremy. I for one have a BA, a MA, a ThM, a ThD and a PhD adn I say amen Jeremy. So what, you are attempting to get your subscribers to see the church in its simplicity, what it was meant to be.
I had some of Bro. Lopez’s books, along with many, many others like him and they are fine as far as they go for parroting the religion of Christianity. I have been there, done that. I was a professionally trained “parrot” for the faith. I learned the Greek and the Hebrew, the history and the systematic theology and do you know what?
Supralapsarianism never saved anyone.
Yes, most here know I was thrown out of a church too for having my own views and questioning other long held tradititons. Yes, I have an agenda as a result…to dismantle the institutional church, one person at a time.
Say one brother Jeremy, this fellow heretic publicly supports you here and privately in prayer.
Mike
Mike,
Fellow heretics unite!
Seriously though, thank you. I think we all challenge, instruct, and encourage one another, as it should be within the Body of Christ.
You are welcome Jeremy. I am glad I found your site and I enjoy your work, prayers for you and your family.
Peace,
Mike
I think that I stand in the same camp as Rene Lopez on this one. As a pastor in one of the so-called “mainline” Protestant churches, I see plenty of things that stand as obstacles (idols, perhaps?) to the spreading of the Gospel and the work of the Kingdom. However, should we just take the whole institutional church and chuck it?
While institutions certainly have their many flaws, I’m not so sure that I trust individuals to be much better. Our institutions are really nothing more than gatherings of individuals. And….because of weather patterns being what they are, these individuals need a building to meet in. You can tear down the stained glass, steepled building and put up a circus tent in its place…….but if people are still praying inside, then its still a local church.
As someone who also has been supremely disappointed with the church, I understand your desire to clean house. I understand your desire for the church to be more like Jesus. However, I’m not so sure that jettisoning our institutional trappings is going to accomplish that.
David Mercer, You and Rene make good points. You will see in future blog posts (later this week or next week) that I don’t mind if people keep their buildings and other institutional trappings, IF they have carefully thought through why they are using them, and what they are going to do with them. For far too many Christians, however, the trappings are considered sacred. If you even question these trappings, you are challenging the very existence of the church.
I think it is high time for the church to rethink what it means to be the church, and to question whether we really need the buildings and the clergy and all the programs.
Oh, and though both you and Rene suggested it, I have never said anything about meeting under a tree or a tent. This is a major straw man fallacy that proponents of the Institutional church throw at people who question some of the trappings of the Institutional church. I am no more in favor of meeting under a tent or tree than I am meeting under a giant building with a steeple.
I’m glad that you don’t think that we need to meet under a tree or in a tent……I’m in Chicago & the winters here would be brutal under such circumstances. 🙂 🙂 Blessings, brother.
I agree, the church is an organism not an organization, its a community not a corporation. And I think that’s the point of this post. Yes, its radical, so is Christ giving up his own life for us.
Thanks, Jeremy!
I lived in Chicago for three years. Yes, meeting under a tree would be bad!
Funny. You know I love my brother. Regards to you and the family:-)
Right on, Jeremy.
I have to agree with Leah; you have not thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Be encouraged, brother, there will always be some who cannot (or choose not to) see beyond the walls of religion. I suspect that many are simply scared of the growing movement of the church outside of the walls of institutionalism. Yes, we are increasing; yes we are looking more like Jesus all the time. Praise God.
I too am looking forward to the new book.
Peace and blessings 🙂
Thank you, Will.
I hope and pray that we are all looking more like Jesus every day. You are an encouragement and inspiration to me, as I hope I am to you.
Jeremy, I was done with this, and I will after this comment, but I went back and read some of your comments (and others) and here’s my understanding. 1) You’re upset and perhaps do not like how some (because you can’t say all since you have not visited all) churches live out their mission and their Christian profession. Fair enough, but remember, since you have not gone to and know all churches, but some, perhaps those some are the ones that need to get their act together. So, your all inclusive language in this post is disturbing at best and disingenuous at worst. 2) This worn-out cliche, “I agree, the church is an organism not an organization, its a community not a corporation” is incorrect, and those that have been critical in the past and present of Jesus’ Church have used it. I’m surprised you’re now using it for your puspose. Huh? Okay here’s the error. All organisms work in an organized way. So, it’s impossible to have a living organism without it working in an organization. Have you taken biology and human anatomy(:-)? Of course, you have (I don’t mean the latter statement in a derogatory way, but I meant it as a rhetorical comment). You’re an educated man that is now smart enough to argue against the organization, but only because you have been trained. Hence, you’re able to spar with me on an intellectual level (which on its face it really disproves your argument). Listen, you know that I know you and have seen how you’ve grown before and after seminary. Of course, this does not mean that your arguments are flawless and logical all the time, as I believe this being a case in point that they are not. I move on to the second part of the cliche: “its a community not a corporation.” The dictionary defines corporation as such: corporation “|ˌkôrpəˈrā sh ən| nouna company or group of people authorized to act as a single entity (legally a person) and recognized as such in law.• (also municipal corporation) a group of people elected to govern a city, town, or borough.• dated humorous a paunch. ORIGIN late Middle English : from late Latin corporatio(n-), from Latin corporare ‘combine in one body’ (see corporate ).” Oh my, do I really need to make the connection here of how this is exactly how a community of believers ought to behave? Believers are authorized by the Lord to act as one single entity (1 Cor 3:16; 12), one body (plural corporate church). Or have we also forgotten 1 Cor 12? 3) I did not mean it literally that you would meet under a tree, but was just a sarcastic comment. Okay, please tell me your solution since you “think it is high time for the church to rethink what it means to be the church, and to question whether we really need the buildings and the clergy and all the programs.” I’m dying to hear your solution of where to meet and how you will train people from untrained people, or will you have someone go to a seminary and get a degree to train others? I hope you see the illogical fallacy of this argument. Or where will you meet? Perhaps I’ve missed it, but I have not read your response to the solution of a meeting place. Because if you don’t have buildings and you don’t want to meet under trees (:-), then please where will you meet? What kind of an organization will you have? You can’t want a church disorganized since our God is a God of order (1 Cor 14:40). And I know this applies to how the gifts should be used in an organized manner, but Paul did instruct Timothy in the pastoral epistles and other letters (Ephesians and Romans), including 1 Cor 12, how the organization ought elect leaders and how it should function. So, a type of organization set in a corporate manner really is not wrong. Perhaps, what you mean is that people run church like businesses. But that in itself is also not wrong, if the business is runned with the intent of serving customers well, given them customer service, taking good care of their employees by giving them a good number of days off to replenish and pay them well, promote it’s product, be fair to all, and organize and strategize in a smart manner in order to be able to serve all employees and customers to the best of their ability. Now, you tell me that this is not good strategy and that these are not biblical principles (that one could highlight in a number of passages) and I will think that you are being severely disingenuous. 4) Listen, do you know what I perceive in these posts that you write on a number of occasions, if I’m honest, that I see a lot of hurt and pain coming out. I hope that it doesn’t make you bitter and that you look to solutions without tearing down what many are doing correctly. May the Lord guide you and the family my brother.
I do not have an opinion on this at all, but what I truly appreciate is the grace seasoning this “argument”
Let me get this straight. You raise problems but have no solutions. Well, let me quote (I believe) D. L. Moody’s response to a lady who criticized him in the way he was doing evangelism: “I like better the way I do it than the way you don’t.”
I’ve been following this stream of discussion too, and though I’ve already put my two cents worth in, I must add another thought. Sam, I don’t know you, but I sure appreciate what you just said. God bless.
Sam never loses his calm, and always seasons his comments with grace and truth.
Thank you, Sam!
It’s all about “being” the church, regardless where the Spirit leads you. If He calls you into an institutional church Sunday morning, I’d suggest you listen and go. If He calls you elsewhere, then regardless where that may be, listen and obey. You never know whose life you will touch, as I was reminded of in this situation: http://rethinkingfaithandchurch.rochow.ca/2011/09/of-fornication-and-street-evangelism.html
Wow! I saw this post right after it went up, but couldn’t comment because I was making enchiladas for our neighborhood Cinco De Mayo party.
For those who do not understand what Jeremy is saying, Jeremy is not trying to close anyone’s church, Bible college or seminary. He doesn’t need to. There are people interested in those sorts of things, but many have lost interest. The institutions are dwindling and closing because of lack of people and money.
Those who need the institutions should stay there. Perhaps you found/find Jesus there. Many of us did not. We find Jesus elsewhere.
We meet in all kinds of places with those who have no interest in the institutions, but are interested in Jesus. Tomorrow (Sunday) morning three of us will be meeting in the streets with mostly homeless people. We talk. We hug. We share. The only sermons are our lives. No one seems to be interested in the other kind.
We find Jesus out there in the streets, literally on the streets and sidewalks. I never cease to be amazed at how many of the people out there know Jesus. Not all follow Jesus, but many know Him better than most church people I have known.
We go where the people are, the people virtually untouched by the institutions of Christianity, as well as those whose experiences with Christianity drove them away from it. We listen. We hear their stories. Many of these people are interested in Jesus, but not in the institutions that say they represent Jesus. Of course these folks never tried your church, but the ones they tried convinced them that they never want to have anything to do with “church” again.
My wife and I very much agree with what Jeremy is saying, but understand that some see these issues in other ways. Fine, if you’re following Jesus and living the life He modeled and described. Knowledge picked up from Scripture, sermons, Bible studies and so on is meaningless unless we’re living out what Jesus is talking about.
Jeremy is not trying to gain followers. Nor are we. We’re all just trying to figure out how to live out our lives as we follow Jesus. Some of us just don’t find that in the institutions. We know lots of people who never found Jesus in the institutions, people who have no interest in the institutions. To those people we go, while you wait for your followers to come to you.
Sam, I do not know you, but I’m touched by your ministry (or whatever you call it). Just like to share this verse from Hebrews 6:10 “God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.”
God bless…
We call it following Jesus (imperfect though we be).
Our common church history is the same, Jesus under the Mosaic law came to redeem His creation, and to establish His eternal passion. To prepare a body, a house, a bride for His eternal and glorious kingdom. This monumental plan was the focus of the Eternal God prior to the foundation of creation.
Jesus outside of mans traditions established His church. He expressed His love, and plans to those that were to be the genesis of this new creation, the redeemed, and sanctified church. As our common history indicates this group of unlikely characters caught fire with this message on the day of Pentecost.
They in and through the power of Christ in them transformed their culture. As we know one of their chief detractors, became their mentor, and loyal brother, Saul who became Paul.
Our common history shows us how this message was communicated, it was within the thriving community of disciples. This was the mission, to live close enough to one another to share Christ, and daily life. Our common church history seems to indicate that Jesus is best expressed within this setting.
We come to the close of the early church with John’s recorded revelation. There is a period of near silence from around 90 A.d. until some three to four hundred years later. This church history,(our common church history) is a radical departure in form and function when we compare it to what we find in the NT.
Please allow me to present a few questions, and please understand there is wiggle room.
1)If what we saw in the early church, and their sense of community under the headship of Jesus, and the priesthood of all believers is indeed the pattern for us today, then shouldn’t we come together and discuss how, where, and when to implement this concept.
2)If this is the desire of our Savior King, why would we resist His will?
3)If we understand we are highly susceptible to error as our common history indicates, why are we not willing to test these teachings that are contrary to to our traditions?
4)If we find them to be in error what would prevent us from returning to the current model.
May we ponder the words of Paul:
“The mystery in a nutshell is just this: Christ is in you, so therefore you can look forward to sharing in God’s glory. It’s that simple. That is the substance of our Message. We preach Christ, warning people not to add to the Message. We teach in a spirit of profound common sense so that we can bring each person to maturity. To be mature is to be basic. Christ! No more, no less. That’s what I’m working so hard at day after day, year after year, doing my best with the energy God so generously gives me.”
Paul of Tarsus
The title of this post is, “It looks Like Jesus” and from my 20+ years in the church, what I have seen and experienced looks nothing like Jesus. My own personal observations:
The institutional church has become an exclusive social club for those that have vs. the have nots. The institutional church avoids the worst in society instead of taking Jesus to them. They enjoy being separate and apart from…contrast this where Jesus was found.
The institutional church demands its believers tithe their income thought NT scripture could be cited to support such. They equate giving with spirituality and allow members to hide behind the mythical 10% if a need arises in the church, “I already gave!”
The institutional church hires professional clergy usually from outside the assembly though scriptures indicates it is a gift not an office. A plurality of elders should provide leadership since no one man can possibly be that gifted.
The institutional church “ordaines” men for the mnistry though ordaination cannot be found beyond the Apostles. Furthermore, when men or women want to exercise their gift in the local assembly they have to ask another man’s permission to use their gift…really?
The institutional church allows for a large part of their tithes to go toward salaries for their professional clergy and the rest for their church building…what is left over usually is split between building upkeep and oh yeah…missions and evangelism.
The church is the body of Christ, He is the Head of the Church. If we followed the leadership of the Holy Spirit in our assemblies and the guidelines as provide in the epistles what would the church really look like, nothing like I have seen thus far.
Mike
Well the intro of your book put a lot more fire on the subject then any other post made before. But still interesting to read all this comments and I say continue what your doing Jeremy. There are folks out there that appreciate it very much.
God bless for everybody ready and replying one an another.
I don’t like “church” in the way they have it in so called church buildings, but I do love Jesus, now it needs to show more.
Yes, that is the goal for all of us… to show the love of Jesus more. To more people, in more ways.
Little firestorm brewing here. Ironic that it is on a post called “It looks like Jesus”….
I think the entire message calls us to consider what are we hungry for. Is it more knowledge ABOUT God or more of His presence? Unfortunately, it seems now, that leaving room for the manifest presence of God is trumped by religious routine and traditions created by man. Sorry if this upsets anyone, but that “routine” has gotten in the way of my relationship.So, in response I did what i had to do – I got rid of routine.
I am all for gathering of the saints, and corporate worship, but let’s start acting more like people of faith and less like a country club. Like any other gift, the “church” can and HAS gotten defiled. Greed, power and entertainment are the masters…not humility, grace and Spirit. We aren’t having “Acts church experiences” because people want to come sit down, and “be fed.” I am a mature believer. I feed myself! The reason people are leaving Christian churches en mass, is because there is no power in that “version of Jesus.” It’s that “having a form of godliness, but denying the power therein” as discussed in 2 Timothy 3:5. it’s infiltrated and is everywhere. I just can’t go back to that nonsense. I am after the things Jesus said to do. Heal the sick, feed the poor, cast out devils, cleanse the lepers and raise the dead. THAT is what we should be contending for IN FAITH, week after week. The rest of it, is man-made religious tradition created to make us feel more self righteous. Church has become a means to control the masses through guilt and shame – all in the name of tradition. The evangelical circles have turned their books and DVD’s in to a multi-billion dollar business. Jesus covered guilt and shame on the cross, so those tactics just won’t work on this daughter of the King. I know there are others who long to see the “captives” set free. Right now? I believe the “captives” make up 99.9% of the Christian churches. It’s become CHURCHIANITY. I don’t see JESUS there. Why would I want to be part of it? I believe it started out that way, but it’s not that anymore. I think we need to trash it, repent, and ask God for a fresh fire. POWER demonstrated will force people to choose. That same power that raised Jesus from the dead is is in every believer and it is our privilege and responsibility to not snuff it out through unbelief and legalism. The occult and every kooky false religion is taking over because of the unbelieving “believers.”
Shine on, Rainbo (cool name)!
He is the Light of the world… and He, in turn, commissioned us to let our Light (Christ in us) shine before “men”.
So, shine on sister.
-M.
Jeremy, are you serious about this Sam’s comments and the Rethinking Faith and Church comment as well? Just because there are corrupt doctors you don’t stop believing in the good that they do and instead go to mechanics to treat your heart problem. Just because hospitals may have rediculous prices and charge plenty of money, it does not mean they are not needed and rather go to a farm to get operated. Furthermore, all doctors and all hospitals are not bad. BTW, what kind of training do these individuals who are anti building, organization, and corporation have, Oh just Jesus? Who’s understanding of Jesus. I defend a number of pastors, including my self, that promote teach, and organize the church the way it should, but the people have to be the ones that ultimately do it. This hippie sounding form of ecclesiology has been tried and it does not work, And to be honest, what I’ve discovered is that a number of people that promote this kind of stuff do not want to be part of a organization because it demands and orders them, has structure, accountability, and sacrifice, which is something people don’t like. THIS IS SIMPLE: Anyone promoting what I hear in these blogs it goes against the Godly estbablished institution called the church. See the arguemnts of theose wanting to destroy the church in 1 Cor 1:10-4:21, God will destroy them (1 Cor 3:16-18): “1Cor. 3:16 ¶ Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1Cor. 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1Cor. 3:18 ¶ Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.” You guys beter be careful that in you “holy zeal” to transmit truth you will be working towards tearing down God’s work. Remember and be catious of the words being spoken here leading the less mature in the wrong path. All I have to say is Beware for Heb. 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb. 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. “Heb. 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Jeremy, I hardly ever engage in blogs, unlike you, because my experience is that it’s mostly unprofitable and people are rarely really open in such an impersonal manner to truly consider the truth in an objective way. There, I made my apology. Hence this will be the last post I will write on this issue. To give you the benefit of the doubt, not that you asked or need it from me, I went to your blog and just read the excerpt from your book: “Yet at the end of this book, you may be left wondering what is left of the church as we know it? I have suggested we give up our clergy and our buildings, that we cancel the Sunday service, the prayer meetings, and all other church programs. I called on pastors to stop preaching, and church leadership to get rid of their doctrinal statement. I invited Christians to stop evangelizing. If a church actually did all this, what would be left?” I love you enough to say the truth if somebody does not. You know my past and how the Lord has transformed me (see http://www.scriptureunlocked.org/en/resources/articles). He did this using the church and the status quo. And I’m grateful to many folks because of it, but ultimately Jesus was the initiator and transforming agent through the Spirit, of course, but not inspite of what you’re suggesting in your book but using what you are suggesting to destroy. I know the power of God and the institution He’s used to help me change, like many others. You may have a group of disgruntled people because of their bad experiences that they have had with the church, but God help you and those that are supporting you. Listen, you may be deceived and deceive others, but I can see through this smoke screen. You and no person alive shall destroy God’s church—that one reading Scripture can see exist and how that functions. Jeremy, you are dead wrong (even somewhat cultish) if you stand by the statement above and will be held accountable for what you are doing. God help you see the light, because what I’m hearing is coming from the darkness
Despite all of your education, I fear you have a severely deficient definition of church if you think I am trying to destroy the church. I am not trying to destroy it, but rescue the church from captivity and enslavement.
The church can still be the church without buildings, pastors, prayer meetings, and programs, can it not? If you think it cannot, then like I say, your definition of church is severely lacking.
There’s only one rescuer and Messiah, and you are not it! The audacity of attributing yourself one who is here to “rescue” the church. I love your humility of calling into question my education at the same time you think of yourself as one who is here to “recue the church.” Oh my, let everyone who reads your blog see through this smoke screen, I pray. You’re so far gone I don’t know you… 🙁
Will, Mike, Sam, and your little flock that follows your errors, as I can see the comments here with perhaps some others (that don’t comment but look on) that enjoy someone else’s disputes, because that’s what TV and programs are made of in this warped world. Listen Jeremy your world is small, thank God, and your koolade thinkers are also few, also thank God. But let it be known, that if they drink it it’s by choice. So, you’re publishing your blog comments here. Huh? Listen, they may not know you, BUT I KNOW YOU AND KNOW WHAT TURNED YOU AROUND. Come clean. You don’t work in a ministry or church anymore, so you don’t care about throwing handgranades at the ministry. Your comments are a disgrace to Dallas Theological Seminary. You may have gotten a degree (Th.M) from DTS, but they would have never graduated you with these views.
Rene,
Do you even know what my job is these days? It sounds like you do not. I am more involved now with church and ministry than ever before. And I serve with people that most Christians reject and condemn.
Regarding how my comments get posted here and on Facebook, this is done by a nifty little piece of software that transports the blog comments from my blog to Facebook, and takes all the comments from Facebook and publishes them on my blog. I do not move the comments back and forth. It’s all automatic.
I read you. Nice touch and use of words. Involved is not the same as actually working for a ministry. I would love to hear what ministry pays you a check for you to argue for the silliness that you’re arguing. Please tell me. What is the name???? You serve with people that most Christians reject and condemn. Bro, have you forgotten that I know you and have followed your path when you began this deviated journey that began when you left GES. BTW, it doesn’t matter the mechanics of how the comments get posted here. The interesting thing is that you’re doing this. Well, if you don’t promote yourself who will?
So if I understand you right, Rene, it is only “ministry” if you are being paid by tithers?
So nobody in your church is involved in ministry except for those who get paid?
Again, nice slight of hand, but hopefully anyone reading this can see in what sense I asked. The context is your trashing and promoting getting rid of the current “paid positions” that lead others in church, not that only those that get paid do ministry. You do that with ease since you don’t depend on that source of income anymore. First came your incident while in ministry (paid position), then came your departure from ministry which led to the severe doctrinal failure. You’re not unique. I’ve seen this happen all too often. Come now, you have some biblical knowledge look up the verses that allow those that work in the Gospel to get paid by the Gospel. BTW, tithing is not a NT concept or practice (as you know—I hope). They taught me to know how to distinguish heresy, to know that we can’t know everything, silliness, and when someone is hurt and writing from that reservoir of pain. I don’t want to get into a battle with words with you since it will not solve anything. I truly wish you seek resolution within. If you think you have, then, okay. I feel I did all I could base on the relationship we that we had. Sorry, I’ not a Messiah that believes I can “rescue” people but a simple brother that tries to suggest to another brother the error of his ways. I still love you but believe you’re mistaken in your philosophy.
Ouch! Following Jeremy? Really? I am not a part of brother Jeremy’s “little flock”. I was already outside the corrupt institutional church when I discovered this site. I will not defend my view of the church though I suspect you regretted much of what you said about Jeremy and us to a lesser extent here already. You parrot traditional Christianity Rene, we are arguing for a simpler church, more like that found in Acts, not the corrupt behemoth we have today.
There is no way for you or anyone else to defend the institutional church as it exists today; if it does good it is in spite of itself. I do not drink kool-aide or follow another man, I can assure I follow Christ mister. Because there are men hold opinions that differ from yours, they have got to be wrong, … right?
Besides you should know that a majority does not equal correctness of doctrine or has DTS gone the way of other public educational venues?
You are symptomatic of that which is wrong with the church.
Mike
Dear Rene,
I’m not sure what you’re smoking, but you don’t know me, so how you can come across with such an ungraceful attitude and still profess faith in Christ is, well, beyond me. Yes, I too am a seminary grad. No, not Dallas like brother Jeremy, but an evangelical seminary none the less. PhD, you say? I’m not impressed.
I am sure that it is because of self righteous attitudes like yours, that many non-Christians that I know, want nothing to do with Christianity today. I feel sorry for you, brother, that you obviously cannot see beyond the institutional box into areas that our Lord is also clearly working, and doing so in wonderful ways.
Having said that, I do wish you God’s blessing. May He one day open your mind. Peace.
Rene, I feel like I am having a discussion with Lou. You remember him? When he began to feel threatened, he resorted to name calling, personal attacks, and quoting Scripture (as if I was not aware of those verses). In this whole exchange, I have not resorted to condemning you or calling you any sort of names. You, however, continue to attack and call me names. Is this really the way to handle disagreements? Even if you disagree, where is the grace and love?
Yet even your disagreement appears to be unfounded. Based on your comments, I seriously think you have no idea what my job is, how I get paid, where I work, what my views are in theology, Scripture, church, ministry, mission, evangelism, or the Gospel. I think you have assumed numerous things about me which are simply untrue. I do not know where you are getting your information about me, but it clearly has not been from me, but some other source which is giving you false information.
I suggest you take a deep breath, step back, and seriously consider the source of your information about me and what I believe. Everything you have said about me above is completely contrary to my life, my actions, and my beliefs. I have tried to be kind and gentle and ask a few probing questions to see what it was you thought I was saying, or what it was you thought I believed, but you continue to attack, condemn, and call me names.
I feel no ill will toward you, but do feel sorry that this hateful and hurtful attitude is where your education and ministry has brought you. I am not writing from pain and hurt. I feel nothing but love and concern toward all people, especially my brothers and sisters in Christ, wherever, whenever, and however they gather. I have tried through my life and teaching these past five years to call people to a life of following Jesus characterized by truth, love, and grace.
If you want to continue this conversation, that is fine. Please write with grace and dignity. However, if you continue to resort to name calling and slander, I will no longer reply and will allow you to have the last word and say whatever inaccurate and harmful things you wish about me.
Jeremy, I don’t know or perhaps don’t remember who is Lou. Regardless, I would like to first say that if you have perceived my rhetorical style of using certain terms that highlight your erroneous views, I’m truly sorry. That is not my intent. I thought you knew me well enough to know that if I have to tell you something, I will, without beating around the bush. Although, I would not in this forum but use other avenues to talk to you more directly. Here’s what I’ve used, just for the record (as we say), if you will: “disgrace” (because the positions that you’re advocating I believe to be disgraceful since I believe them to be unbliblical and definately not advocated by the place you spend your money to get a degree from. If this is too strong of a word, I retract it. Okay, you’re unbiblical in your ecclesiology. Rhetorically I called you “Messiah.” Well, who else would dare to say that they are here to rescue the church, since only one can do that, and again, “you are not it.” Sorry, if you don’t retract your use of the phrase “rescue the church” I will hold fast to using the term rhetorically Messiah to call the position and function that you’ve attributed to yourself, because I only know of one that will come again to rescue the church. And that we’ll have to wait and see “till He comes”:-) Listen Jeremy, I’m not one to hold on to sacred cows, because I’ve killed many of them myself, and am in the prossess of killing some right now as we speak, which others would consider to be unbiblical—as I have called your position. So, I don’t want to play the pot calling the kettle black (or be disingenuous), but Jeremy what you prospose in the little that I’ve read, I can’t find in Scripture and perhaps, when you’re done with that section that defends your position I can read it upon your allerting me (if you’d like). I feel very secure and don’t flatter yourself in thinking that your position threatens me. My, you really don’t know me. So here’s what we’ve established: I don’t know you and you don’t know me, even after having conversed numerous times (too many to count) on personal and impersonal matters, as well as fellowship on numerous other occasions, and one point slept under the same roof. We don’t hold each other’s ecclesiological views, we both don’t have the same view of how grace in such dialogues ought to be used, and we both “know” (?) you don’t work for a paid ministry position of a church, or else I really believe you would not be throwing bombs the way you do. All in all, I still love you and know THAT YOU’RE A REALLY NICE GUY and will pray the Lord’s guidance in your life, and hope you would reciprocate the gesture.
That was closer to gracious. Thank you.
Regarding my use of the word “rescue,” you do understand that words must be understood in context. I was not implying or saying that I can rescue the church the way Jesus has rescued and delivered us from sin and judgment. You know that.
Look at it this way: you feel like you are trying to turn me from what you see as the error of my ways. Yes? Is not that a form of “rescue”? Of course it is. Should I then accuse you of having a Messiah complex because you are trying to rescue me from error? I would never say such a thing. I appreciate your concern, even if I disagree.
So I have concerns about the direction that some of the church is headed, and I am doing my best to raise my voice and issue a call to the church to change. You are doing the same, but in a different direction. You want me and people who believe like I do to return to your way of ministry and church. You want to “rescue” us from what you see as the error of our ways, do you not? This is no Messiah complex, but simply trying to live out and call others to live out what we think the Bible teaches.
If you want to disagree, that is fine. But we can disagree with civility and grace, rather than with accusations and condemnations of heresy.
Now, regarding my ministry position. I have not hidden the fact here on Facebook or on my blog that I work as a Chaplain in a prison with 1300 inmates who desperately need to learn and know about the grace, love, and forgiveness of God. I lead Bible studies. I preach sermons. I disciple. I evangelize. I perform marriage counseling. And I do all this, not just to Christians, but also to people of other faiths. It is a mission field. I am a tentmaker, an evangelist, a church planter, a pastor, and a missionary.
Even though the inmates do not pay my salary, how am I not ministering in the church? If you want to condemn me for not being involved in the ministry then you must also condemn all tentmaking missionaries, bi-vocational pastors, and unpaid church elders as also not being in ministry.
Jeremy, of course I’m not understanding the word “rescue” that way. What impacted me in the way you used the word is how you condemned all known traditional venues of doing ministry and propose to have a new and better way or doing ministry (which ironically you don’t know yet but it must be better), which you’ve chosen to call “rescue.” BTW, you’re not alone, as you have seen by the books you seek, read, and recommend others to read, that some folks are unhappy in the way church is done and desire to revolutionize the church by destroying how it currently functions. To destroy EVERYTHING I believe is a bit radical for my taste, specially when I see nothing in Scripture to back that up. That some people in churches or churches are in the Laodecian mode, I agree, but you have not been in all churches, have you? And you do not know if what you dislike is working elsewhere, do you? I’ve seen it work and not work. Listen my brother, when it gets down to it, what really lacks in churches is not a need of constructing a new model or deconstructing the old one, because you and I know that in the final analysis, people and their sinfulness, laziness, hurtfulness, comforts, idleness, and etc. . . are the real issue. I said, “you don’t work for a paid ministry position of a church, or else I really believe you would not be throwing bombs.” You’re not attacking the prison or parachurch ministry, because if you did and they got ahold of your book you would not be working there long. Come on Jeremy, you know the logistic of my comment and the repercussion if you worked in a “church” (in a paid position) and attacked the very way it does ministry. I’m sure some elders would have something to say about it. You know the point. I’m very, very glad that you work as a Chaplain. I remember that you’d told about working for the Federal Gov. or some government institution. Of course, I don’t condenm parachurch ministry. Marialis and I support various ones. In fact, you know I have a record (an extensive one at that I was a real hardcore delinquent) and while in prison in my early 20’s the chaplain was a catalyst used by the Lord to bring me to Him. By all means, AMEN!!! I love it. In fact, I would encourage you to get my article “Change is not a Mission Impossible” and share it with inmates in order for them to see how the Lord can change a life radically (not that they need it but it may help someone). I don’t mean to promote myself but I’m trying to show off the power of how God can change a person, and hopefully they can see how one can be radically transformed. I don’t know if you were at GES when this was published. It also came out in various other magazines, including Kindred Spirit—to God’s grace and glory.” Having said that, however, the local church is what Christ has ordained with elders, decons, and it’s members. One must be accountable to someone here on earth placed by the Lord to spiritually guide us. This, you know, can be easily proven in the NT. So, while I’m elated where you currently minister, I would not call that the church (not that you do either. I don’t know but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt since I know you’re a smart man). So according to what I see in Scripture, one should minister locally (whether you’re paid because you live of the Gospel [which you and I know that it’s scriptural] or unpaid [as one that exercises their spiritual gifts[) and be held accountable? I think we both should get back to what we’re called to do: preach and practice the Word. If you think the entire system needs to be thrown away and build a new and improved Jeremy system, well go at it. We’ll just have to agree to disagree how you may be going about it. 🙂
Rene, I am certain I am quite old enough to be your father, maybe your grandfather. If you were my son, I’d insist on sitting down with you and having very long talk with you about the love of Jesus.
You’re making assumptions about people based on a few sentences, then showing anything but love. This looks like religion, but not at all like Jesus.
You have a need to tell us about your education and Biblical knowledge. Understand that you’re parroting what was fed to you by one seminary, DTS.
Show the love of Jesus in not only what you say, but what you do.
The attitude that you know all about the Bible, ecclesiology and Jeremy is not becoming to you Rene.
Two suggestions:
1) Get off the internet, where you are not being kind or loving, but are calling names and putting people down and trying to display what you assume to be your superior knowledge. Spend the same amount of time out in the streets with the addicts, prostitutes, homeless and you-name-it. Listen to them. Hug them. Love them. Share Jesus with them. Let them see Jesus in you.
2) Print out the comments you have made here – your name-calling, judgmental remarks and lack of kindness. Read them in thirty years when you’re older and wiser. Read them and weep.
Jeremy has been more than kind. If this were my blog, I would have blocked you early on in this discussion. Your owe Jeremy a major, major apology, as well as the rest of us here.
Rene,
The truth is that I gained these views while I was in seminary, and yes, I did graduate from DTS while I had these views.
But I recognized that it was as you say. If I went into a traditional church with these views, I would probably cause a church split and the elders would probably have to fire me.
So that is why I chose to not go into professional, paid, pastoral ministry. I chose to follow my own theology, and do in my own life and ministry what I believe Jesus is calling me to do. I lived according to my theology.
I do understand that what I am saying is viewed as a threat by some who get their income from working in a traditional church setting.
But do not feel I am asking anyone to do something I myself have not done. I desperately miss traditional church ministry. But I gave it up because I felt this is what Scripture and Jesus wanted me to do for the sake of His church and for the sake of people all around me who would never step foot in a traditional church. I am taking the love of Jesus and His church to the people, rather than asking them to come to a building to receive that love.
For those who wonder why I put up with such a long, abuse discussion after my post the other day about banning people who call names and use ALL CAPS, it is because René is (was???) a good friend of mine from Seminary.
He recently got his Ph.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary, and is an adjunct professor at various schools as well as a pastor at a church in Dallas.
There, but for the grace of God, go I (we)…
It fills my heart with worshipful thankfulness that He continues to extend His longsuffering arms/hands of grace/Love/Hope and Peace… to us all, in each of our journey.
Love conquers all!
-M.