I listened to a sermon today in which the preacher (I’m not going to call him a pastor) said these things:
If you are going to follow Jesus, you need to stop hanging out with your non-Christian friends…
Gays are disgusting people…
God has called me to a new ministry…
On that last point, the preacher forgot to mention publicly that he got a $10,000 bonus for agreeing to go to this new area of ministry.
If I were a bolder person, I would have stood up and called him out on these points.
But I didn’t.
Instead, I took notes so I could write a blog post about it…
Look, here’s the point…
If you are going to preach hate, legalism, and self-righteousness, don’t do it in the name of Jesus, and don’t call it the Gospel. Of course, that’s probably asking too much.
When it comes to hate speech, legalism, and self-righteousness, Christianity has a corner on the market.
The Gospel is good news. The center of the Gospel is the message of Jesus: that God loves everyone, has forgiven everyone, and extends infinite grace to everyone. If you claim to be a Christian but can’t preach that, it makes me think you don’t understand the Gospel.
bollox
I’m with you. In my opinion, a lot of this sort of thing amounts to little more thinly veiled political ideology. There is a segment of the population that eats up this stuff and is willing to donate $$$$$ to the “cause” of those who spout it. Religion has been used by many people throughout the millennia to make money, and continues to be used in that way.
It’s o.k. for these people to say whatever they like, but not o.k. to claim it’s in the Bible, or that Jesus said it.
Great points, Sam.
I have always been amazed at the large following that are gathered by people who peddle hate speech, of whatever political or religious persuasion they might be. And all sides have their spokesmen…
I guess that some people like to be confirmed and encouraged in their hateful feelings toward others. We all have such feelings (I know I do, at least), but I hope I can learn to break free of hate and learn to love instead.
Good word
Yes so true. An individual filled in while our Pastor was away. Oh brother, he had built little pieces of furniture and brought them to front and during his speech(not much of a message) he stomped on each piece of furniture to illustrated each of his points and he had narrowed it down that if we keep these things in our lives we won’t prosper and God won’t fill our church and .. and .. and. You know I am getting too old for this kind of message. And this guy has no job, and lives off his Parents inlaws. I stuggled to take him seriously at all and he is half my age. I think the points you mentioned Jeremy fits what he ranted on.
I feel for you. We don’t get much of this in the UK. Being brought up in the Church of England my typical sermon would be a bible reading followed by an explanation as to why no one could think that it could possibly apply to us today. One of the good points of the C of E is it has set readings, one from the New Testament and one from the Old as I recall and you go through the whole bible and start again. So no one can pick bits out to suit themselves and if you are a homophobe you have to wait till Leviticus or Romans 1 comes round until you can have your rant.
This is interesting. So-called Christianity in your country must be very different to ours. I would have to say that the people here with a corner on the market of “hate speech, legalism, and self-righteousness” would have to be the secular groups here: the politicians (any flavour), local environmental groups, the local anti-religious groups, public servants who want to squeeze Christians out of community life, and the local media. Not to mention anonymous internet trolls.
I’ve never, ever heard a sermon of the type you described above – not in any country (but I’ve never been to the North American continent). Most just quote the bible (good) or preach self-improvement (not so good). Some focus on Jesus, some on self, and some of God’s benefits. If sin is addressed at all (a rarity), then it’s in the more general sense of being right with God and what he has done. On second thoughts, I don’t think I’ve heard a sermon on putting sin to death through the cross for at least a decade in this country.
I wonder if this a United States phenomenon only? I hope so!
What country are you in?
Actually Christianity does not have a corner on the market …….but “in the name of Christianity” certainly does. Barf!
That’s true. I used a bit of hyperbole to make the point.
So you listen to one pastor say awful things and come to the conclusion that Christianity has a corner on legalism, hate speech, and self righteousness? That’s a rather small sample size don’t you think? I mean call me naive but when it comes to these issues there are many organizations and movements that trump Christianity. Hate speech is an interesting post modern word which has particular focus in relation to certain selected groups and I can tell you the hate speech I have seen and heard against Christians far outweighs the sermon you heard. Logic dictates I respond this way as its premise and its conclusion are as flawed as one can get.
Mark, Have you read “UnChristian” or “They Like Jesus but Not the Church”? Have you listened to much of what is on conservative Christian talk radio or what comes from the mouths of many conservative pastors and authors?
Obviously, (1) I’m not basing my opinions on what one single pastor said, and (2) I’m using hyperbole to make a point.
What are your thoughts about homosexuality? Do you agree with what this pastor said?
Jeremy clearly you are missing my point. You hear ONE pastor speak and then make all encompassing claims about the whole Christian church. You state Christianity corners CORNERS the market on hate and other areas of evil. Jeremy how can you extrapolate from one experience to the whole of Christianity? Do you not see the illogic of such statements? … Do I agree with that pastor?…. If he hates people of course not! If he hates the sin of homosexuality YES. … I seriously doubt you hVe ever listened to conservative talk radio…. If you have who said what?
Continued… Name the name of the conservative host and what they said. I am afraid Jeremy that you are being vague and you are doing something anyone making assertions are not supposed to make and that is painting with a broad brush both groups of people : Christians and conservatives. Far left people do this a lot… They make generalizations, don’t give specifics and label with little to no evidence . If this is your MO it’s very sad.
You state you are using hyperbole- fine. But you state what one pastor says and then attack conservative pastors and conservative talk radio without one single example. Jeremy you have to know better. That is dishonest. Name the pastors and conservative talk hosts- until you do your point is mute. You know that’s true if you are honest.
Jeremy sorry for the multiple posts. Something I forgot to mention something: my daughter is gay. I love her dearly and she knows that. I disagree with her lifestyle and she knows that. Other family members have gone from my view to agreeing with her lifestyle. Now Jeremy they are considered Tolerant. What do you think I am considered Jeremy?? You see if I stick to Gods Word I am intolerant. I wonder sometimes whether showing love is the issue with people or acquiescing to their son. Now whatever that pastor said if it was anti people (disgusting) then of course I am against it. However if he is describing behavior I am still against it though I understand it. Bottom line is Gods Word doesn’t change-while I can abhor the attitude of the pastor I will not change Gods Word.
Sin above
Mark, I think maybe you are are living under a rock. You ask for examples? My question for you is, “How do you not know of any?” Here are a few:
Charles Worley: “Have that fence electrified so [the homosexuals] can’t get out. Feed ‘em, and– And you know what? In a few years they’ll die out. You know why? They can’t reproduce.”
Kurtis Knapp: “Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them? No, I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.”
Dennis Leatherman, “Kill them all. Right? I will be very honest with you. My flesh kind of likes that idea. But it grieves the Holy Spirit. It violates Scripture.”
Sean Harris says if a son shows what is perceived as effeminate behavior, a parent should“squash that like a cockroach,” and if they see their son “dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch.”
And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRNbC-aSFLc
Do you seriously want more of this vile filth? I could go on and on and on.
I don’t even know who these people are. You are a person who doesn’t answer questions. I listen to mainstream conservatives and Christians. You can pull up nominally heard individuals from one sided books all day. I have to say if I live under a rock you live under a boulder. I find you very disingenuous.
Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Michael Medved, Dennis Prager, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck- these are conservative mainstream talk radio personalities with the highest audience ratings. Greg Laurie, David Jeremiah, John McArthur, all the Calvary pastors, Franklin and Billy Graham , Jack Hayford, Chuck Swindoll, Rick Warren, others MAINSTREAM–I suppose I could go down south and find a talk show and a preacher that were racist and anti homosexual and write a book and then claim all Christianity and Conservatives were of a certain mindset. See how easy that is? Now go mainstream and find the evil you claim and then tell me I am living under a rock.
Mark,
So let me follow your logic:
Me: Christians say hateful things.
You: No, they don’t. That’s one example. Nobody else says these things.
Me: Here are several more examples.
You: Well, those don’t count. Give me examples from “big name” people.
Look, I am politically and religiously conservative. I listen to Limbaugh, Prager, Levin, and Hannity, and agree with most of what they say. I graduated from Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary.
I am not trying to bash conservative theology or conservative politics.
I am simply trying to call my brothers and sisters into a wider message of love for others. Judgment begins with the house of God…
Sean Harris: awful and he was castigated for it and apologized at least somewhat- but ask the average Christian who Sean Harris is-Dennis Leatherman- awful- but another marginal personality that is not representative of conservative Christianity. Same with Worley and Knapp. I suppose I could say MLK represented an awful philosophy because of Sharpton and Jackson both caught in dishonorable and criminal behaviors using racist language.— what you are saying is that people on the margins making outrageous statements are representative of Conservative and Christian conservatives- that is not so, I can’t get you to admit that what you are doing is irresponsible and represents a swipe at a lot of good people. Sad.
Let me ask you something Jeremy- I have had people tell me that because I am white, a Christian a veteran and a conservative that I am , a baby killer, a racist ( because I didn’t vote for Obama) and an anti poor elitist and a homophobe because I am against homosexuality, also that I am a potential serial killer because I believe in the second amendment. I wear a cap that says I am a proud veteran and endure dirty looks and comments. I served during the Vietnam era and couldn’t wear my uniform for fear of being spit on. I am a member of the Tea Party and am told I am a racist and don’t care about poor people. —-So Jeremy where is all the sympathy and standing up for guys like me? Not that I need because I don’t. Christ is enough for me. It’s just strange the turn this country has taken when the people who did sacrifice and work hard and stand up for personal responsibility are called names, pis-ed on and told to shut up. Maybe that’s why I feel so strongly. What these pastors have said is awful and I condemn the statements but I refuse to classify large swaths of the American people as hate filled and awful.
I interact daily with people who are antagonistic to Christianity, and the one thing they almost never hear from Christians is criticism of other Christians for bad behavior.
Instead, they primarily hear empty excuses for the hateful and hurtful words of some Christians. “Well, they don’t represent everybody. Well, you misunderstood their context. Well, you gotta remember that God hates sin, but loves the sinner. Etc., Etc. Etc.”
I think what you are missing from my post is that I intentionally used hyperbole to make a point – and the point still stands. If Christians are known in the public arena for people hurtful and hateful toward others, then those of us are who are NOT this way (the majority of us, hopefully?) must go overboard to emphasize our love and care for others.
Western Christianity pretty much does encompass what’s been written by Jeremy, if it didn’t rags like Charisma News and others wouldn’t exist with such huge following and popularity in Christian circles…
Jean if you believe that there is nothing I can say. The evidence he presents is so flimsy and are such outliers. It is very easy to use an extremist and make projections. Extremists exist in Christianity on the left and on the right. Extremists exist in politics on the left and the right. The mainstream tends to marginalize those types. When Jeremy brings up the stuff he does I have no problem being on his side and criticizing it. However when it is presented as some norm that is pervading the republic I have to say PROVE IT. He can’t because it’s just not true. It’s just like conservative talk radio- so many who critique it have never listened to it and or they buy the opposite viewpoint and listen to others critiques and adopt them as their own. This is lazy and represents an agenda. Homosexuality is a hot button issue in our age and to not expect that some bad apples won’t break out and attack people is naive. But to say it is somehow the norm in Christendom is a stretch and is not based upon evidence. Anyway I understand there are different viewpoints in Christendom on issues but on homosexuality the Bible is unambiguous while extending grace to the sinner.
Charisma news is a rag? I read through it and don’t get it- why is it a rag? I swear you guys amaze me as you put things down in such a non precise way. I guess if someone promotes holiness or attacks sin it’s immediately at odds with you guys.
Well I am done with this thread . I am really at whits end why a person like Mr Myers was unwilling to engage me in an honest manner. If he had stayed that this man preaching to him was using slurs against gays and that he knew of a collection of pastors who had done the same things and he was concerned about this little band of people I would have agreed whole heartedly. Instead he went to a straw man argument lumping whole swaths of groups into the mix Conservative talk radio and Conservative Christians. He states it was hyperbole but doesn’t consider that that hyperbole is incendiary and very abusive to many good people. It’s really disturbing to me that this type of illogic and over the top editorializing is taken as legitimate. Anyway I am done .
Mark,
I never said anything in the article about conservative talk radio or conservative Christians. That has been all you.
Looking back over your dozen or so comments, “Me thinks thou dost protest too much…”
I am really sad to hear some of the stuff you write like this. It’s really unfair and biased against evangelicalism and for me conservatism. Not that the latter is your concern. I find most of it poorly thought out. My 2 cents.
I encourage you to go only and hear Islams view of women and homosexuals and get back to me. Either you don’t get out much or read very widely other than theology or you have a bone to pick with evangelical Christianity.
So your defense of what this pastor said is, “Islam is worse!”?
Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you
There is some Biblical truth for what the preacher was saying even though he did not put it across with better understanding and in love (Ephesians 4:15). We do need to tell our youth to be careful because they can lose their testimony/integrity before other Christian youth, non-believers and God for spreading the gospel which is crucial. I don’t believe in the friendship evangelism project especially using youth because they are making themselves set up to committing un-Christian like conduct. In other words the lost can bring you down before you can ever bring them up. Youth and some adults are not mature enough to handle theses types of peer pressure or unequally yoked friendships. I would rather say that we should love them as God loves them to tell them the gospel but to buddy, buddy with them the scripture above says if you play with pigs you are sure to get dirty. We are never to put ourselves on a pedestal we are just beggars giving another Bechar bread that’s all. Even God says that He gives up on them as well at a certain point Romans 1:28. Some have said; “Jesus went and visited sinners” That’s true, and so should we but to tell the gospel was His objective not to go along in their sinful activities to win them or that could have compromised His perfection as the Son of God plus He is the Son of God way more mature than we will ever be. I dd not hear the preacher say the word hate but stay away that is not provable as being hate speech. Hate speech is rather using words to attack people you hate or dislike but telling someone to stay away from someone else is anybody’s right to say especially the Parent. So to make a long story short he should have shown more christian like motive explaining both the negative and positive aspects in Christian fellowship and friendship in the world
I do not think someone has to use the word “hate” for what they say to be qualified as hate speech…
As for what the preacher said, what was true about it? Are gays disgusting people? Does God truly want people to stop hanging out with non-Christians?
I do not think either statement is loving or truthful.
this is an unaddressed problem in Christianity in my opinion. The scriptures seem to suggest that the Spirit changes folks, makes them more unconditionally loving…..I just don’t see it, and it’s an empirical claim, one should be able to see it. Where are the streams of living water? I see a ton of moralistic self righteousness, but very little unconditional love…..for me the larger issue is the scriptural claim of what follows when one interacts with Jesus, it seems folks should be acted UPON by the Spirit with supernatural effects…..do you folks see this, I don’t.
>here are the streams of living water?
Where are the Christians that practice what Jesus taught?
Jeremy was fired by his congregation for daring to think that perhaps what he was doing, was not what Jesus taught.
Jonathan,
I was fired by a ministry organization for reading about things that the founder of the organization didn’t think I should be reading. I was never fired by a congregation. … Just thought I would clarify!
Sorry. I was mistaken in who and why you were fired.
>I was fired by a ministry organization for reading about things that the founder of the organization didn’t think I should be reading.
Assuming the reading material was not that which encourages violations of Exodus 34:16, and related material, then that cause for being fired is even worse than being fired for daring to think that perhaps what he was doing, was not what Jesus taught.
If the material was that which encourages violations of Exodus 34:16, and related material, then the proper course of action is treatment, whether using spiritual, or psychological counselling. (And if the organization in question spent time studying the Bible in depth, they’d would both know, and be able to effectively use the treatment plan outlined in the Torah.)
Jonathan,
No problem! I just didn’t want people to think I got fired from a church for some sort of impropriety. And no, I didn’t get fired for anything having to do with Exodus 34:16!
Here is a list of what I was reading about: https://redeeminggod.com/the-heretic-in-me/
Vaughn, Wow! That’s an object lesson! I preached one of these once, except that I squashed ants on an overhead projector with my thumb, saying that this is what God would do to us. I shudder to think of it….
Greg, That is a great question. I know that I too fail to live in much grace and love toward others on a day-to-day basis. I see grace and love more and more with people who are outside traditional congregations.
I am currently reading a book “the wisdom of Tenderness” – by Brennan Manning and here is what I just read I quote ” When the primacy of love is subordinated to doctrinal correctness and orthodox exegesis, cool cordiality and polite indifference masquerade as love…. When absolute control and rigid obedience pose as love within the family and the local faith-community, we produce trained cowards rather than Christian persons.” So then with those kinds of messages… I wonder where is then our Christian tenderness and love being nurtured or developed?
What you are saying, sounds like “don’t complain about Hitler, if there is still Stalin who is much worse.” How does it come, that you evangelicals always point to Islam, if someone is trying to remind you on the teachings of Jesus? BTW Jesus had no beef with other religions but only with the selfrightious doushes of his own. Try to follow his example once in a while.
My copy of the post must be missing something. Where does Jeremy say anything about Islam? Are we reading the same post? Are you sure Jeremy is an evangelical?
Sam,
I think Jay may be writing in response to Mark Richmond’s comment above where he basically says that what Christians say about homosexuals and women is not as bad as what Muslims say?
Hmmm. That could be.
I am atheist talking with god. No such of thing like church, bible, pastor can represent god. God is inside your heart and inside your sole. Peace! He is on the way!!!l
The Apostle Paul had a tough time staying away from disbelievers.
Yes, that’s true!
I am tired of hate speech and guilt trips full stop.
Full stop is right. Maybe that is where I should have stopped too! Hate speech is wrong, whatever its source.
Maybe we should just quit trying to share with people what Jesus said. Seemingly that would make people happy!
(Course we all still get to face Him)
Not sure if your comment is a defense of what this pastor said or not….
I have a son who is gay and have ended up leaving the traditional local church because it didn’t seem like a safe place for our family. It was difficult – we were very involved – I led women’s ministry for many years – taught bible studies – we did a lot of volunteering, served on lots of committees and did a lot of good work through the church but to be honest I feel like our faith has grown wider and deeper since leaving the church. I have a private/secret Facebook group for Christian moms of LGBT kids who love their kids unconditionally, want to develop and maintain authentic, loving, healthy relationships with their LGBT kids and are working to make the world a kinder, safer, more loving place for LGBT people. There are over 300 moms in the group and many of them have been very wounded by the church and left the church because they don’t think it is a safe place for them and their families – some have found affirming churches and now attend there but many don’t even want to attend an affirming church as church in general is related to too much negativity for them at this point. I see so much grace and love from these women – the way they interact with one another, encourage and support one another and even in the way they deal with those who have and continue to hurt them … even though they may have left the church they are still living out and spreading the message of Jesus.
Liz, Thank you for facilitating the online group for mothers. We have hundreds of gay friends and very few of them or their families have experienced kindness at the hands of most churches.
Liz,
That is wonderful! I did not know this about you.
I am so thrilled to hear of examples like this of people who love others in the name of Jesus.
Wow, Liz, you’re my hero! Don’t poo poo that comment, I’m serious, you are already what I hope to become, I still get very pissed at church folks!!!
My vicar told me that Christians have to go to church…it says so in the bible.
I haven’t been much recently since he said that. Rebel!! But I really don’t see that attending church means I treat people better or that my faith in God is deeper because of it. Rules, rules, religion. I prefer, love, love, love. For anyone and everyone.
Happy to be a part of Liz’s group! She is such a trailblazer in loving all people, especially those who have been marginalized. She teaches me so much with love and grace. Proud to call her friend!
Thank you so much Tana Lightbown Hendricks. I love our group of moms and am blessed everyday by friends like you who I have come to know through our group.
A good post by Jeremy but reading Liz’s story was the home run I needed to hear today. A lot of my preconceived ideas and morality issues around the LGBT community began melting away a few years ago when one of my brothers shared his story with me. Something happens when you are directly involved without choice. But stepping up the way you did, Liz… Wow. What a wonderful living example of inclusion.
Geesh. Horrible. It’s a shame others had to endure that. Here’s a short post of mine about preaching. Does it really motivate people to live Christ-like? http://wp.me/p4SYKL-52.
Doesn’t loving someone sometimes mean that you say to them that they must stop what they are doing? Of course you need to say it in genuine love and humility and not in hatefulness. Any rebuke must come from grace and truth. Unfortunately some emphasise truth and become legalistic and hateful while others emphasise grace and become tolerant of sin. ‘Neither do I condemn you. go and sin no more’. Jesus didnt condemn the woman caught in adultery but he did not overlook her sin either but gave her the power to change.
Yes, you do sometimes have to say hard things to people you love. But this is within the confines of a close relationship; not from a pulpit.
As for the woman caught in adultery, I wrote about that here: https://redeeminggod.com/go-and-sin-no-more/
Jeremy, I think you’ve got yourself in hot water here over one line:
“When it comes to hate speech, legalism, and self-righteousness, Christianity has a corner on the market.”
It’s not true. Perhaps you should ask the church across the world. I think you’ll have trouble finding people who agree with your statement when they are being slandered, vilified, threatened, jailed, killed, beaten, tortured, raped just for being Christian.
I don’t think anyone here disagrees with your headline: none of us wants hate preached in the name of Jesus. It’s not the gospel, and not obedience to God, and sadly you’ve obviously seen it more than others here have. But to characterise the whole of Christianity as if it is also that same experience is to risk slandering the entire bride of Christ because you keep finding a really grubby sleeve on her dress.
Yes, perhaps that is overstating the reality. However, sadly, most of the people I know here in the USA would heartily agree with Jeremy’s statement. Perhaps it helps if we distinguish between all those who identify as “Christianity” and those who follow Jesus. Sometimes it is the same people, but often it is not. The latter group (that would be those who identify as “Christianity”, but are not following Jesus) are well-known for doing and saying things that do not look like Jesus.
Yes, I did get into hot water over that exaggeration.
I did it intentionally though, for several reasons.
First, though most Christians do not speak hatefully toward others or about others, the sad reality is that the media and the internet gives such examples of hate speech from Christians way more publicity than it deserves, which in turn gives the impression that this is the way all Christians are, which is not true.
One way to combat this, is to loudly and boldly denounce such hateful statements from some Christians. The world needs to see Christians stepping up to be critical of mis-behaving Christians.
Second, “to whom much is given, much will be required.” It is not enough for Christians to be on par with non-Christians, or with Muslims, or with atheists. If we claim to have the truth and to represent a loving God, then our actions and words must contain an overabundance of love and mercy.
So yes, I overstated my case, but the opposite case has been overstated far too often, so I hope my overstatement can encourage us all to watch what we say and do.
It does not say you have to go to Church, it says do not neglect to meet together in fellowship – not necessarily a building!
Yes Ruth! I agree! The Church is a body of people, not a building…;-)
Guess he was right ’bout hanging out with worldly people bcoz once in christ,there’s no common interest between u and ’em.U can’t hang out with ’em bcoz they would hate u and call u bland. And gays and all sexually immoral people(includes us)are disgusting to god.Agreed?
Godfrey,
When you say “includes us”, are you saying that you are sexually immoral and that God is disgusted with you?
I don’t want to hear any of the sordid details, but God is not disgusted with anybody. He loves all people, accepts all people, and forgives all people.
People who are wounded,numbing their conscience,uphold sin gallantly here.That’s what these so called christians supporting homosexuality in the name of christ are-hypocrites who deny the power of God
I totally agree with you mark.These people are hell bent on distorting God and deny his power.Hypocrites in the garb of angels
Godfrey, refer to the COMMENT POLICY at https://redeeminggod.com/comment-policy/
Future comments such as the above two comments that amount to name-calling and personal attacks will be deleted.
Jeremy, you did reduce what I assumed to be a 30 minute sermon to a synopsis of 30 words. I have no way to judge for myself what he said, however, if God hates sin we probably should share that with people. In reading the comments most of the people strongly agreed with you . I haven’t heard anything but positivity (certainly no hate speech ) from my pastor, so much so that I’m wondering if/when he will mention sin again.
But thank you So much for this continuing forum so we can discuss these crucial issues publicly.!
That’s true. The statements I quoted are taken completely out of context. I know that most pastors never say anything like this, and maybe need to be more bold about calling sin for what it is. But we must do so with love, which you have pointed out well.
I do not think someone has to use the word “hate” for what they say to be qualified as hate speech…
Answer; You are correct, I thought more about the legality of the term “hate speech” that the LGBT community uses to science their opposition which some are valid but not all. If we arrested everyone for hating someone the whole world would be in jail including a lot of gay people. I have been called names you wouldn’t believe by the LGBT but they said they didn’t hate me even though they said I hated them like God hated them by using scripture in a non offensive manner.
As for what the preacher said, what was true about it?
Answer; I gave you scripture but Vaughn and Mr Manning did a better job than I did in balancing things out
Are gays disgusting people?
Answer; The Bible says its an abomination To’ bah’ which means detestable. Yes, it is disgusting but I wouldn’t say that at the pulpit
Does God truly want people to stop hanging out with non-Christians?
Answer; Hamm… Why would non-Christians want to hang with believers? It depends on how far you go with hanging. If the non-believer who is proud, fully desiring, and un-receptive of practicing their sin of homosexuality and they love being around the believer then that would make me question what’s wrong with that believer because the scripture says; “Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted – 2 Timothy 3:12, No proudly practicing sinner of any kind will stay with a believer very long just ask Liz
I do not think either statement is loving or truthful.
Answer; We are talking about going to totally two different extremes here. I believe you can love little Johnny so much you don’t want to spank him then on the other hand you want to spank the devil out of him with a two by four. Ephesians 4:15 says we must speak the truth in love that means we cannot erase the truth of Gods word to love neither can we beat sinners up with the truth without love. With the help of the Holy Spirit we can try to combine these important principle for the glory of God not to separate them.
Just a note; I spent ten years in a prison ministry in a federal pin and won two gay men to the Lord. Did I attack them? No, did I take up for them practicing their homosexuality? Not one inch, did I love them in the Lord? Yes, and they knew that I did
Thanks for clarifying. Also, thanks for loving the people you worked with, regardless of their lifestyle or background choices. It is God who convicts of sin, and it is God who sanctifies. Our job is just to love and befriend people.
Wow!!! That is quotable, Jeremy. You said, “It is God who convicts of sin, and it is God who sanctifies. Our job is just to love and befriend people.”
I already shared your blog post on FB and G+ today, but now I see that these two sentences MUST be added! 🙂
Thanks so much for sharing the true Gospel!
Americans make up only 10-11% of the world’s Christians (assuming Wikipedia is right). Assuming the other 90% of the bride’s dress is as filthy as the 10% you see all the time might not be the best.
That said, I’m in Australia. We make up an even smaller proportion of the world’s Christians, of course, but we’ve always known we’re relatively insignificant in the global scheme of things. All I can say is to repeat my earlier comment that Christians here in no way corner the market for “hate speech, legalism, and self-righteousness” – it’s the secular groups. It’s especially so in the city I live in at the moment: a pastor that gave the type of sermon you quote here would risk all sorts of vilification in the local media within days.
Sorry – that was meant to be a reply to one of your earlier comments.
I think you were replying to Jeremy’s response to your Dec. 28 comment, which was one of the first comments on this post.
“Question: “Are Christians guilty of hate speech?”
Answer: A working definition of hate speech is “speech that is intended to insult, intimidate, or cause prejudice against a person or people based on their race, gender, age, sexual orientation, political affiliation, occupation, disability, or physical appearance.” If that is the accepted definition, a Christian should never participate in hate speech. However, the problem is that the definition of hate speech is broadening over time. Proclaiming that a certain belief is wrong or that a certain activity is sinful, based on biblical principles, is increasingly being included in the definition of hate speech.”
http://www.gotquestions.org/hate-speech.html
We are living in a time where Christianity is being marginalized within a growing secularist state. The definition of hate speech is definitely being broadened. I think Jeremy’s broader point is valid, Christians ought to be showing love in such a way that all other groups are left speechless. Do we? No even close. America has a long history of politics, pulpit, and nationalistic/patriotic fervor often overlapping. Now that Christian culture is no longer dominating society, many within the church are getting defensive and are lashing out.
I have been listening to a series by Erwin Lutzer on oneplace.com called “The Church in Babylon”. Dr. Lutzer lays out through examining the books of Jeremiah/Lamentations the rejection of God within Israel, the warnings of judgement, and the exile to Babylon. He discusses the parallels between America and Israel, and how Christians are to live, and react within a pagan culture in a way that is loving, yet drawing lines on what is most important. I highly recommend this series.
Col 4:5-6
I think Mark Richmond has a good reason to be alarmed because hate speech doesn’t seem to have any real boundaries or clear definition if you are against homosexuality using the Bible and calling it an abomination that s considered hate speech
I would like everyone consider something that is growing in this country that has already occurred in Canada a Law that is passed by making it a criminal offense to use the bible against any sexual orientation. They do not accept the clause “hate the sin but not the sinner” they do not see there is any difference
Go to your search engine and put in “is the Bible hate literature”
Jeremy whether you agree with Mark or not you must be careful not to label the entire organization when pointing out its failures because trouble will follow, They will think that you have a hate for the entire organization because you are being bias. My two cents
For the other side of the tracks, Don’t we have the right to exercise the freedom of our religious beliefs? We do–for now. But that may change as a result of the hate speech of liberals, which is so often directed at Christians. Liberals like to name-call (homophobes, hate-mongers, etc.), label us as bigots, and say that we serve an antiquated God. In doing this they commit the very error of which they accuse us. Here’s how . . . they will sometimes call the God of the Old Testament a baby-killer, murderer, genocidal maniac, homophobe, etc. Such accusations can easily incite anger, hatred, and violence towards Christians
Maybe the Liberals should study hate speech a little more. Apparently they don’t get it. Don’t Christians have the right to our opinions? Don’t we have the right to exercise the freedom of our religious beliefs? We do–for now. But that may change as a result of the hate speech of liberals, which is so often directed at Christians. Liberals like to name-call (homophobes, hate-mongers, etc.), label us as bigots, and say that we serve an antiquated God. In doing this they commit the very error of which they accuse us. Here’s how . . .
They degrade and attack us as Christians (a religious group); and, I am sure, attempt to intimidate Christians into abstaining from the political realm and social structuring of our culture–based on our religious beliefs. They degrade our Christian lifestyle which includes the right to disapprove of homosexuality, bestiality, pedophilia, polygamy, polyandry, pornography, etc. Also, they incite prejudicial action against Christians with their ill-informed misrepresentations of Christianity. For example, they will sometimes call the God of the Old Testament a baby-killer, murderer, genocidal maniac, homophobe, etc. Such accusations can easily incite anger, hatred, and violence towards Christians. After all, if you accuse a religious group long enough, people will begin to believe the accusations. And, as we all should be aware of, beliefs lead to actions (think of Hitler’s propaganda effect on the Jews). What would happen to Christians if everyone around them thought they were following a murderous, baby-killing God that was labeled homophobic and casually supported genocide? Think about it. By labeling people groups (i.e., Christians) in negative ways, it makes it easier for one group (liberals?) to hate another, to become emotionally detached, increasingly irrational, and potentially violent. Would those thus indoctrinated by the hate speech of liberal hypocrisy (which modern societies seem to embrace so readily) treat the Christians with love and kindness or with fear and intimidation? Which couplet brings peace and which brings persecution?
Ah, but such reasoning does not stop liberals from their doublespeak and hypocrisy (probably because they haven’t thought things through very far). The name-calling, accusatory, intolerant liberals are quick to judge and slow to love. They are eager to blame while ignoring their own guilt. They readily condemn and remain blind to how they do the very thing of which they accuse others. Who knows? Perhaps their attitudes have been shaped by their own hate speech more than they realize.
But if we are persecuted, count it a blessing for Christ who was also persecuted unrighteously (1 Cor. 2:8). Our response is to bless those who persecute us (Rom. 12:14). If we are accused, we should bear it well (1 Pet. 4:16). This does not mean to be idle and do nothing. We have the right of self-defense (Luke 22:36) as we give an answer to everyone who would ask (1 Pet. 3:15). Yet, while we do this, our love is to be without hypocrisy (Rom. 12:9). We are never to pay back evil for evil (Rom. 12:17); and as far as it is possible, we are to be at peace with all people (Rom. 12:18)–even though many may not want to be at peace with us.
Finally, it is not bigoted, narrow-minded, or hate speech to say we follow God and believe that homosexuality, pornography, pedophilia, rape, adultery, etc., are all wrong. We are expressing the freedom of our religion–in spite of what the liberals fear and foment. Rest assured, fellow Christians, it is for righteousness and truth that we are persecuted, reviled, mislabeled, and falsely accused by those who seek to sit in judgment over our faith.
Ricky,
You make a lot of points, and I cannot respond to all them without writing a really long comment… which I don’t have time to write, and most people don’t want to read.
Just beware of equating the gospel with the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion. These final two things are freedoms granted to us politically by our government, and often get in the way of actually following Jesus and the demands of the gospel.
I agree that freedom of speech is a wonderful blessing, and that many liberals are trying to silence various other groups. All I am saying is that in the practice of our freedom of speech, we who claim to follow Jesus must make sure that we do not use the non-gospel right to say whatever we want in a way that violates the gospel-centered call to speak the truth in love.