I indicated in a previous comment that I would refrain from debating this gospel issue any more because none of us on either side are getting anywhere with the others, and I have better things to do. But in light of what I came across today, I am compelled to begin another post.
Besides, I guess public “debates” like this are not really for the debaters, but for those who are “on the fence” trying to understand and decide between the two positions. Even still, my follow-up comments to this post will be limited.
Following the attempts by some of the commenters (from both sides of the debate) to get simple “yes” and “no” answers from each other to theological questions, I have a REAL LIFE situation to pose to the readers of this blog, and I want you to state with a simple “Yes” or “No” whether you believe the following woman is saved or not.
Certainly, only God knows, but based on how you understand the Bible, the Gospel, how people are justified, and what she says, is the following woman justified, Yes or No?
And just so you know, I am not making this woman up. She is a REAL woman I encountered today. So give her the benefit of the doubt. If she says she really believes something, let’s assume she really does believe it.
She says she believes that:
- Jesus is God… i.e., He is fully divine.
- Jesus is fully human, yet without sin. Also, He was born of a virgin.
- Jesus died on the cross and rose again from the dead three days later.
- She is a sinner and needed Jesus to pay for her sin through His death on the cross so that she could gain His righteousness.
- Simply by faith in Jesus, she has everlasting life which can never be lost.So far, all of us would vote a hearty “YES.” I know I do. But here is where it gets interesting. She also believes that:
- Humans are “divine like Jesus, but to a lesser degree” becuase we sin.
- God is Allah, the same god the Muslims worship.
- The Trinity is fiction… there is only one God and He is not in three person.
- The Qu’ran is inspired by God and is on equal footing with the Bible. Since the two are in conflict on some teachings, neither can be taken literally.
So, what is the verdict?
And here are the RULES for the comments on this post. YOU MUST, IN YOUR FIRST COMMENT, BEGIN WITH EITHER A “YES” OR A “NO.” Following your one-word answer, you may then explain your answer. Also, in subsequent comments, you do not need to begin those posts with your answer, unless you change you answer.
Obviously, none of us are the true judges of a person’s eternal destiny (Isn’t that a relief?), and the Gospel is not even primarily about where one will spend eternity, but this exercise is for the purpose of helping us think through what the Bible says about how to receive eternal life. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don’t go around judging people the way we are doing here on this post.
Yes.
She has obeyed the Gospel. (although I could entertain an argument that she has not seeing as she hasn’t believed that Jesus is the Christ as revealed in the Scriptures…) My first impression is that she is in fact saved though.
She however is the victim of heretical teachers. The Apostle Paul warns us to mark them and separate them from the Church for this very reason. She is so lost in bad doctrine that her growth is stunted. It is impossible to reason with, or rebuke her because of her false view of Scripture and God.
This could be an interesting conversation.
Kev
Hi Jeremy.
Yes.
If she in fact believes #5 then she has done all that is theologically required for eternal life.
There can be so many differenct variations of misconceptions about religious belief. If we insist in our evangelism that the hearers subscribe to all our orthodox doctrines and in the full understanding that we subjectively assert must be understood for salvation, we can invalidate for the potential convert the simple act of faith which does bring eternal life.
Such practice is an endless regress and slippery slope that can in fact lead to innumberable conditions for eternal life, for it is not enough to assent to the doctrine, one must also have a detailed full understanding of various concepts that need to be defined, and these definitions often need further clarification and qualification, and on and on and on.
When one believes on Christ for eternal life, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. In time, through His ministry and the Word, and proper guidance from one that is spiritual, this woman can move on to real spiritual growth and maturity. She can be lead to the truth and these misconceptions can be corrected.
My thoughts!
Antonio
YES
On another blog where this post is referenced, one commentor votes for “redeemed.” Here is the link:
Unashamed of Grace Blog
So counting that vote, we are Redeemed: 4, Unredeemed: 0.
My primary interest in this is that this woman, though she believes many things about Jesus and our need of salvation, there are many things she does not believe as well. One could easily argue that she truly doesn’t believe in the “Jesus of the Bible” because of some of the heresies she does believe.
And if that is the case, and she is indeed redeemed, how much about Jesus do we have to know in order to truly believe in Jesus?
On another blog, one person accused Bob Wilkin of teaching that a person could believe Jesus was a frog, and as long as they believed in Jesus (the frog), they would have everlasting life. I talked with Bob about this blog, and he emphatically denies that he ever said this, nor does he believe it. He says that when a person believes in Jesus, it has to be the Jesus talked about in the Bible.
So the question then becomes, “How much about that Jesus do you have to know?” Clearly, the more you know about Jesus the better. But for evangelism purposes, is there a checklist of doctrines (credit goes to Antonio da Rosa for this idea) one must believe about Jesus in order to truly believe in Jesus? Or can you just say, “Well, I don’t know much about Jesus, but I know that this Jesus in the Bible gives me eternal life because I believe in Him for it”? If so, growing in our knowedge of Jesus is a sanctification issue.
No. Blending Christianity with false Gods and false religions does not provide salvation. Romans 8 tells us that Christians are indwelt by God the Holy Spirit and I am certain that the Holy Spirit brings all regenerate Christians to understand that syncretism is no more valid today than it was in the time of Elijah. “1 Kings 18:21 And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.”
Adding a false religion and a false God to faith in Christ is no different than adding works to faith in Christ. Why would anyone believe that faith plus works does not save but assert that faith plus false religion and false Gods is OK.
YES. I’m taking her at her word that she believes in Jesus for everlasting life.
The act of passing from death to life isn’t something WE decide to do. It’s the Holy Spirit who enlightens a person to the truth about Jesus being the giver of eternal life. He does this THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES. When the person finds himself believing in Jesus Christ (the One sent from God recorded in the Scriptures), that person KNOWS at that moment that he/she is eternally saved with God. That person understands that Jesus (the One recorded in the Scriptures… not a frog or some other Jesus from a cult) has given him eternal life as He promised. If a person is reading the Bible, or hearing about the One in the Bible who gives eternal life to the believer, then that person is believing in Jesus who saves. That’s who the Holy Spirit reveals as the Savior.
This woman who we are to vote on is just a very confused Christian. But there are a lot of confused Christians. They may not be confused about the same things as this lady, but they are very confused. I think there are a lot of Christians who get drawn into cults AFTER they are saved BECAUSE they’re not well grounded in Biblical truth. So they are just prime for a cult. The Bible warns Christians about this.
I can’t help but think of Simon who practiced sorcery in Acts 8. The scriptures record that he BELIEVED the things that Philip was preaching concerning the kingdom of God and the NAME of Jesus Christ, and he was baptized. Yet he didn’t understand the truth about the Holy Spirit, and he offered the apostles money to buy the Holy Spirit. That passage goes on to tell that Simon should repent of his wickedness. He needed forgiveness (fellowship forgiveness). He was poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. In other words, Simon was sinning. The issue here was a PARTICULAR sin. He needed to get right with God to get in fellowship. So this is just an illustration of how that Christians can be very mixed up in their understanding of Scripture. Some may disagree with me on Simon being a Christian, but I’m convinced he was.
So I vote YES!
Yes…When I came to faith/trust in Jesus Christ for eternal life, things similar to 7-9 were in my head until I had learned/been discipled enough to understand some basic truths and was able to see and discern error. Frankly, I’m still learning and am being humbled by the new truths the Lord allows me to see and understand from personal bible study, teaching and being taught in the local Church, and from seminary classes.
Thank you all for your comments so far…
I received an e-mail today from a man who votes “yes” but with reservations.
He mentioned that he had a similar conversation a few months ago with several people who were Muslims. In the case of the three Muslims he talked to, they had been trained to use Christian-sounding language in order to converse with and (hopefully) convert Christians to the Muslim religion.
So, based on that, it very well could be that this woman was being deceptive in her use of terms. If you have had Jehovah’s Witnesses comign to your door recently, you will notice that they are trying to present themselves as mainstream, evangelical Christians now. They have gone through some “sensitivity training” to make themselves sound orthodox. But really, all they are doing is adopting evangelical terminology, while using different definitions for the words. Our Lordship Salvation friends do this all the time when they say that salvation is by “faith” alone, but then add all sorts of works into the definition of faith. This woman I talked to could have been doing something similar.
Teh man who e-mailed me made the good point that she may not be believing in Jesus Christ alone, but may be believing in Jesus Christ plus her Muslim beliefs for eternal life.
Clearly, a longer, deeper conversation with her is needed.
Yes. The sole condition to having everlasting life is available when an individual believes in Jesus Christ alone for eternal life. John 6:47, 3:16..etc..
Jeremy, if the facts about other doctrines are off but she believes that she has eternal life ONLY through Jesus Christ plus nothing else, then eternal life is hers.
Whether she believes in the Trinity or not will not save her.
The same could be said about Bible and the Koran whether they can be taken literally or not will not save her.
I would say that if she has her truth correct on Salvation and nothing else and she really believes that Jesus will save her when she places her faith in Christ for it then she is heaven bound. John 5:24
I would think that the other statements about the trinity …Koran etc…might eventually undermine her assurance. Gal. 1:6,7
Vaughn
No.
At least, I don’t think so. I’ve suggest on my blog that the phrase “believe in Me” and similar phrases mean something like, “believe that whatever I say is true” and do not refer to a specific statement such as the promise of eternal life.
In passages such as John 6:47 it is commonly argued that the expression “believes in me” refers to believing in Christ for eternal life. This is argued on the basis of the context and not on the basis of the semantic value of the words. However, in John 7:38-39, Christ promises the Holy Spirit for everyone who believes in him. In that context the promise is one of the Holy Spirit and not eternal life so the expression “believes in Me” if seen as referring to belief in the promise of the Holy Spirit will result in a difficulty with how most understand the reception of the Holy Spirit. In other words, if the words “believes in me” refer to believing in Christ for the Holy Spirit then that means the Holy Spirit doesn’t come at the moment of saving faith.
Consequently, I think that the expression “believes in Me” is better understood as something like, “believes whatever I say is true” (not in the sense of “believes everything I say” but “believes anything I say”). For me, this makes a lot of sense when seeing how other people come to faith in the Bible when there is no mention of eternal life but simply faith that Jesus is the totally truthful one – the Messiah, the Son of God – the one who cannot lie.
If that is granted, then it follows that this woman cannot be a child of God (if she has always believed this) because to grant number 9 means that she has to deny some of what Jesus teaches. This denial means that she does not accept Jesus as the one who is truthful. John 14:6 says that Jesus is *the* way, *the* truth, and *the* life. This woman must deny this to allow for Islam and consequently means that she must deny points 1 and 2 at least. It seems that the propositions she is trying to assert contradict each other and thus cannot be believed simultaneously. But I would say no, she isn’t saved because she doesn’t believe that what Jesus says is true.
WOW… Love what you said about Believing whatever Christ says. First thought, “Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” “and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God”
Abraham probably did not know about the Messiah, nor was the cross available to him then. Yet Abraham was the father of faith because he believed God. We need to be entirely consumed with Christ.
FOLLOW-UP POST—
Some very good comments being posted here.
I would like to respond to Andrew’s thoughts on the meaning of “believe in Me” in John. A number of years ago I did a study on that terminology in the book of John. That particular study was in relation to John 2:23-25 in trying to determine if those people who “believed in His name” were genuine born again believers. After my study, I determined that they were born again believers whom Christ did not commit to. They were not committed BELIEVERS at that point and Christ knew it. I think that the terminology in the book of John… “believe in Me” MEANS believe in Jesus for eternal life.
1) The author, John, states the reason he is writing this book. He says in John 20:30-31 – “And truly Jesus did many other SIGNS in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but THESE (signs) are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that BELIEVING you may have life IN HIS NAME.”
Notice that Jesus performed the miracles (signs) precisely for the reason that the people would BELIEVE IN HIS NAME. That was His purpose for performing the miracles.
2) The writer (John) of this gospel, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit states all the way through this book, if you BELIEVE IN HIM or BELIEVE IN HIS NAME you WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
3) John 1:12 says – “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, evern to those who BELIEVE IN HIS NAME.
4) John 3:15-18 says – “that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who BELIEVES IN HIM is not condemned; but he who does NOT BELIEVE is condemned already, because he has NOT ***BELIEVED IN THE NAME*** of the only begotten Son of God.
5) John 6:40 says – “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and BELIEVES IN HIM may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
6) John 11:45-48 says – “Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, BELIEVED IN HIM. [Notice that they believed in Him because of the things (signs) He did.] But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, ‘What shall we do? For this Man works MANY SIGNS. [There’s those miracles again that bring people to faith in Christ.] If we let Him alone like this, everyone will BELIEVE IN HIM, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.'” They believed in Him precisely because of the miracles He was performing!
Some believers cannot be counted on to live for Christ. Some are even secret believers.
EXAMPLE: John 12:42,43– “Nevertheless even among the rulers many BELIEVED IN HIM, but because of the Pharisees they ***DID NOT CONFESS HIM,*** lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.” Also notice John 19:38,39 – “After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but SECRETLY, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Jesus. And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds.” These were believers possessing eternal life because of the terminology John uses….. “believed in Him.” They were SECRET BELIEVERS. John wouldn’t say in one place that those who “believe in Him” have everlasting life….. and then turn around and say that those who “believed in Him” weren’t REALLY saved. Remember, John wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
My point in this discussion is that whenever John used the term “believe in Him” or “believe in His Name” or “believe in Me,” He was referring to those who believed in Him FOR ETERNAL LIFE. That was John’s special phrase. So John 7:38-39 (that Andrew referred to in an earlier post) is also speaking of believers who had eternal life. Those born again believers would be receiving the Holy Spirit soon.
Andrew’s comments made me think of this earlier study that I did. This was just a portion of that study. Thanks Andrew for bringing that study back to my mind. I can tell that you are a THINKER on God’s Word. I truly appreciate that.
Thanks for your comments and kind words Grace. The question of what the Lord Jesus meant when he said, “Believe in Me” has been playing on my mind quite a lot recently. I’ve posted some though here and here (in the comments section in the latter link).
Just a few thoughts here though. Although eternal life is often connected with the expression “believe in Me”, sometimes it isn’t. In one instance in John 9:35-38, the blind man who was healed simply realised that Jesus was the Son of God and according to John 20:31, that man received eternal life when he believed that. What was he believing though? Did he have an awareness that the Messiah guaranteed eternal life to all who believed in Him for it or did he realise that Jesus was the Messiah (one of whose attributes being that he speaks with the authority of God)? It is my opinion that a Jew of that day would most likely be aware of the latter while not necessarily being aware of the former. This makes more sense in other cases outside of John such as the conversion of Paul and the Philippian jailer. For neither of these individuals can it be proven that they were aware of the promise of eternal life but I think it would be reasonable to assume that for both of them they came to rely on the words of Jesus Christ as being totally truthful. It was because people wouldn’t believe in his words that he chastised them in John 5:46-47 – “If you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Again I feel that it makes more sense to see the expression “believe in Me” as referring to believing that he is reliable because the expression “for eternal life” is never appended to the end of the former expression in John’s gospel. It is used in 1 Timothy 1:16 but in that context the most obvious understanding is that Paul believed in Christ with the result (eis) that he received eternal life. In John’s gospel however, that expression is never used (so far as I know). Jesus just uses the expression without explaining it further and then states the result (and not the content) of believing in Him. The expression “believe in Me” doesn’t semantically mean “believe in Me for eternal life” so if it means that it must mean so contextually. But if it means that contextually then it makes the words “whoever believes in Me has eternal life” difficult to understand. This is so because the verse becomes kind of circular since the hearer must understand the result before they can do the action to get the result. For me, it seems best to understand the expression “believe in me” and similar expression as simply referring to believing that what that person says is true. Having said that, I’m still thinking through this so I’m not entirely certain!
God bless,
Andrew.
Andrew, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I can tell that you are thinking through this issue, as I am.
Maybe Jeremy or someone else who understands the language better than I will give some help on this. But here’s what I see.
I think the man born blind in John 9:35-39 believed in the Son of God FOR eternal life. The reason I understand it that way is because in verse 35 Jesus says… Do you “believe IN the son of God?” That’s the very terminology that John (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit) uses to refer to believing FOR eternal life. John wouldn’t use that particular phrase if it didn’t mean FOR eternal life. It would make no sense for him to record that those who “believe IN Him” HAVE everlasting life……… THEN turn around and record that a person “believes IN the Son of God”…. yet does NOT HAVE everlasting life. In fact, in verse 36 the man uses the term…. “believe IN Him”. If he was believing something LESS than believing in Him FOR eternal life, John wouldn’t use the term “believe IN.”
All the way through John the phrase (terminology) used for having eternal life is “believe IN Him”… “believe IN Me”…. “believe IN the name”… “believe IN the Son of God (who is HIM, ME, THE NAME)”. For me, it doesn’t make sense that John would record that exact phrase that Jesus spoke to mean something less than to believe in Him for eternal life. To me that would be saying that John says one thing, but then turns around and contradicts what he said. The Word “in” is the KEY…… I think. But I’m not a Greek scholar, so I’ll need help on this one.
Andrew, I appreciate your comments. They cause me to think deeper and help me to check out to see if all the pieces fit. Hope you keep studying, and I’ll do the same. Thanks.
Grace (my blog name) 🙂
There is a good discussion and follow up post about this issue over at the Unashamed of Grace blog.
Read it here.
1) Whenever we say we, “believe in someone,” content is implied in the context. If I were to say, “I believe in the babysitter,” in the context of going out for the evening, you would understand me to be using that phrase as short-hand for the proposition, “I believe that the babysitter is qualified, will do a good job, and take care of my kids, etc.”
I am very specific in the content of saving faith, so was Jesus. The content is the promise of Jesus. Jesus promises the one who believes in Him to be eternally secure.
Thus, when he says, “Most assuredly I say to you, whosoever believes in Me has everlasting life”, the phrase “believes in Me” is, like the babysitter illustration above, shorthand for a proposition. This is His promise. To believe in Him is to “Believe that He gives me irrevocable eternal life when I take Him at His word in His promise”.
This is explicitly shown in Jesus’ discourse with Martha:
John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
NKJV
Jesus states unequivocally that as the Resurrection, everyone who believes in Him, even if they die, they will live.
Jesus states unequivocally that as the Life, whoever lives and believes in Him will never die.
Jesus then asks:
“Do you believe this?”
He does not say
“Do you believe in Me?”
The “this” is his assertion that He guarantees eternal life and resurrection to the one who believes in Him for it.
When Martha answers “Yes, I believe you are the Christ, the Son of God” this mirrors Johns purpose statement in John 20:30, 31.
Isn’t it odd that she would answer the way she did when He asked her “Do you believe this?”
Not when you compare it to the purpose of John’s gospel in John 20:31.
You see, to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is to believe “this”. And as we have already noted, the “this” is the assertion or proposition that Jesus Christ is the Guarantor of eternal life and resurrection to the believer in Him.
Christians state that salvation comes from believing “in Him” or in other words, faith in Jesus Christ. I agree with that statement. But as we know, there must be a specific content to that faith involved.
It is legitamate to say “I believe in Jesus” and mean “I believe that He existed”. We speak that way all the time. Or I can say “I believe in Jesus” and mean “I believe that He will answer my prayers”.
But none of us would agree that the content of that faith “in Him”, consisting of “His existence” or “the answer to prayer”, would bring eternal life. At least I hope we would agree that to believe Jesus existed is not saving!
When we speak of “faith in” someone, it is shorthand. There is implied content to that faith, that is usually picked up by the context.
For instance. If I said “I believe in the airline pilot” or equally I could say “I trust the airline pilot” when I was talking to a friend on my way to a chartered flight to the Bahamas, the implied content could be supplied by assent to propositions about that pilot:
I believe that the airline pilot is a professional, highly trained plane operator, skilled in flying, troubleshooting, emergency issues, flight safety, etc. I believe that he is able to conduct affairs sufficiently so that I will reach my destination.
I submit that to “believe in Him”, in other words, to believe in Jesus, is to believe the “this” which He asks Martha if she believes. In other words, to believe in Jesus is to believe that He is the Guarantor of irrevocable eternal life to the believer in Him for it.
Listen. Nefarious and ethereal and ambiguous beliefs about or in Jesus will not bring salvation. Specific content is required, as I am sure you all would agree according to my examples above.
The specific content of saving faith is the “this“.
Jesus asked Martha if she believed “this“.
Jesus told the woman at the well “If you knew the gift of God and who it says to you, ‘Give Me a drink’…”
It really is that simple. There is no creed to learn, no doctrinal hoops to jump through.
One simply must trust Jesus in His promise to impart eternal security to the one who takes Him at His word for it.
John’s purpose is rock-solid, and his terms by which one receives eternal life are clear. He everywhere states it. Jesus Christ is clear throughout the gospel of John what the specific content of faith is. We only have a minute and miniscule portion of his engagements and discourses with the players in John’s gospel. They can be read in a matter of minutes! Surely they were much longer than is what is recorded for us by John.
The bottom line is that John did his job. He showed, in the discourse of Jesus with Martha, that an equation exists between the terms “the Christ” and its apposition “Son of God” with the import “The Guarantor of eternal life to the believer”. For John, the Christ, the Son of God, is the one who guarantees eternal life to the believer in Him.
Jesus asks Martha, do you believe “this“?
Martha answers, “Yes, I believe you are the Christ, the Son of God.” For John, to believe that Jesus is the Christ, is to believe “this“.
And thus throughout his gospel, when one believes that Jesus is the Christ, or the Son of God, we know that they believed Jesus as the guarantor of eternal life, for this is the content that John has imported into those terms which makes belief in those propositions salvific.
Antonio
Thank you Antonio -(and Jeremy for the forward)- for another great post. You are always helpful to me!
There’s another article ON THIS SUBJECT that I came across today as I was reading a book on the 2nd coming of Christ. Would you believe it???!!! Stuck right there in the book…… a “Grace in Focus” newsletter on the VERY SUBJECT we’re talking about. I didn’t go looking for this article. I read it in the past but forgot about it. But there it was…… staring right up at me. Couldn’t help but wonder…… “Hmmmmm? God, did you do this???” 🙂 Can’t say He did. It’s NOT “Thus saith the Lord!” But it sure was NEAT the way it happened! The article was in the May/June 2007 issue of “Grace in Focus” from GES. I went into their website, under PUBLICATIONS. But this particular article is not yet posted. When I see it posted I’ll try to let you all know (for those who don’t yet have it). The name of the article is….
“PROBLEM THINKING ON JOHN’S GOSPEL” by Chaplain Larry Adler. It speaks to this very phrase… “believing in Jesus.”
I thank all of you for your comments, questions, and insight. Now we can all do what God instructs us to do……. Search the scriptures to see if what is said is true.
Rejoicing always in Him!
Grace (blog name)
🙂
When you believe in the name of Jesus, you believe on One who is God, who has died and rose again, who was born of a virgin, who did walk on water, who ascended into heaven bodily, who is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, of the tribe of Judah, the line of David, etc. EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT AWARE, UNDERSTAND, OR BELIEVE THESE THINGS.
My daughter believes in me as her “Dad”. As her dad I work at a Costco warehouse where I am a merchandiser/forklift driver. She doesn’t know what I do there. She doesn’t understand. She may even believe that I own the whole store and run it myself, or any number of misconceptions.
My daughter believes in me as her “Dad”, as the one who provides for her, feeds her, clothes her, shelters her, etc. When she believes in me, she is believing in a man who is a merchant at a Costco, whether or not she knows what I do, have done, or has even if she has wild misconceptions about me.
She has trusted me as her dad and I provide for her. The means by which I can provide for her is not the issue. The issue is whether or not she is going to trust me as her dad, trust me for her well-being, and I will provide for her, or is she going to doubt in me, and worry, and be anxious about where she is going to find her well-being.
Jesus purchased a gift with His death and ratified it with his resurrection. He offers that gift freely to the one who entrusts his/her eternal well-being to Him. To understand how he is able to offer this gift and how He has the authority to do so will encourage belief in Him for the gift. But it is not NECESSARY to believe or know those things in order to receive the gift.
“Dad” offers physical well-being.
“Jesus” offers spiritual well-being.
“Dad” can be mis-characterized yet the daughter still can put faith in “Dad”
“Jesus” can be mis-characterized and yet the lost can still put faith in “Jesus”
The name “Dad” contains all that “Dad” actually is: Costco merchandiser, forklift driver, check writer, food preparer, laundry washer, etc.
The name “Jesus” contains all that “Jesus” actually is: God, crucified sacrifice, resurrected one, High Priest, Advocate, King of Israel, etc.
To believe on Dad is to believe in the one who is the Costco merchandiser, check writer, food preparer, laundry washer, etc, even if the one believing in Dad does not understand these things.
To believe on Jesus is to believe in the God-man, the crucified Savior, the Resurrected One, the High Priest, Advocate, and King of Israel, etc, even if the one believing in Jesus does not understand these things.
Remember, a child can be saved. It is not complicated like “Checklist Evangelists” make it.
Mark 10:15
Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.NKJV
When we believe in the name of Jesus, we are relying upon Him for our eternal well-being. His name conists of everything that Jesus is, whether explained in the Bible or not, whether known and/or understood or not. Jesus has made a name for Himself by various means. The significance of that reputation for the reception of eternal life is that Jesus, as the Christ in the Johannine sense, is the Guarantor of eternal life to the believer in Him for it.
The core of the offer of eternal life understands Jesus to be the Guarantor of eternal life to the believer. No one in the universe or outside the universe has an such an identity.
When my daughter believes in Me as the one who gives her terrestrial well-being, she is believing in one who is a check writer, a forklift driver, and many other attributes of me that facilitate that well-being. Is it necessary for her to know these things in order for me to provide for her well-being? Of course not. “Dad” to her, represents the one who takes care of her, even without her believing or understanding what I do in order to take care of her.
Jesus Christ is the Guarantor of eternal life to the believer in Him for it. When I believe in Him, taking Him at His word in His promise, I am believing in His name, which represents all who He is and has done in order to secure for me eternal well-being. Like the illustration of my daughter, my reliance is upon Him and that reliance does not necessitate that I understand everything that He is and has done to provide for me that eternal well-being that He promises to the believer.
Dad to my daughter is the one who provides terrestrial well-being to her.
Jesus is the one who provides eternal well-being to the believer.
FreeGracer…
Thank you for your EXCELLENT illustration!!!
What’s so interesting about this whole discussion is that everyone who is born again believed THAT one specific truth that brought them eternal life. To God be all the glory for His most marvelous gift!
Hi Antonio,
In the Old Testament, prophets from God were received with great respect and reverence. In fact, the words of a prophet were seen as having the very authority of God himself as seen by the oft repeated words, “Thus says the Lord…” It was taken for granted that a prophet who spoke for God did not lie and if he did, in such a case he clearly wasn’t a prophet of Yahweh.
When Jesus came, he came as a prophet. But more than a prophet. At the very least, any Jew would realise that the Messiah, as God’s representative would not lie. In fact, everything he said would be true since he was God’s unique representative. It is almost axiomatic that for a Jew, the Messiah would speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thus when a Jew realised that Jesus was the Messiah, this was part of that realisation. To deny that Jesus spoke the truth at all times simply amounted to denying that he was the Messiah. In such a case, he couldn’t even be considered a prophet but only as a blasphemer – the verdict of the Jewish leaders regarding Jesus.
However in regard to a father, such a person is not necessarily inerrant. In fact, if I believed that my dad spoke lies nearly all the time, such a belief would not invalidate my belief that my father is in fact my father. Believing that the person I assume to be my father is my father doesn’t require me to acknowledge his inerrancy or the truth of his words.
On the other hand, as I’ve already noted, the Messiah is a totally different figure. To deny that he speaks the truth is to deny that he is the Messiah. In a similar way, to deny that I have any of the same genes as my father is to deny that he is my father. Certain things cannot be denied if I believe that my father is actually my father. Again, in the same way, certain things cannot be denied of the Messiah if we are to accept that he is the Messiah. One of those things is the truth of his words.
In the account Jeremy has given of this Muslim/Christian woman, clearly she must have to deny certain of Jesus’ teachings. We aren’t simply talking about a person who doesn’t realise certain of Jesus teachings (as far as I’m aware) but rather of a person who realizes what Jesus taught and then openly rejects it. At least in effect by denying the “literalness” of some of his teachings she denies what he taught. One verse I quoted was John 14:6 where Jesus affirms that his is the way to the father and is the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father apart from him. But if this woman is aware of this, she denies it. As such, she does not accept that Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God in any Biblical sense of the word and according to John 20:31, she does not have the life that Jesus came to give. Clearly then, assent to the belief that Christ gives eternal life if you believe in Him for it is insufficient to receive eternal life.
God bless,
Andrew.
Dear Friends,
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, believes His promise of giving eternal life to the one who believes in Him alone for it. There is no believing a lie in that promise. “Thus saith the Lord”… (John 3:16-18). If the woman (above) believes that promise as recorded in the Bible, then she IS SAVED. That’s not believing a lie. That’s believing God’s truth. You can’t separate the promise from the person.
But she is confused about many things and needs to be taught. I doubt that she has out right REJECTED truth. She probably has not been taught clearly about those very important biblical truths. She needs to be discipled. BUT if she has REJECTED truth, that doesn’t change the fact that her faith is in God’s promise of giving everlasting life to the one who believes in Jesus Christ alone for it. If she’s done that, she’s forever saved.
That’s a truth that I realize is hard to take in for many. But that’s the confidence we have….. that whoever believes in Jesus will never perish but have everlasting life.
Thank you again for the privilege of sharing in this discussion.
Just to add one other note here (not related to this subject)….
Because I need to always stay close to Him in His Word….. It helps me AFTER I enter into a discussion like this to open His Word and meditate on OTHER truths. It’s too easy for me to focus in just one area, and God’s taught me to be careful to always focus on HIM! So I end this post with a couple verses I read yesterday in my time alone with the Lord…
Col. 3:16,17…. “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
Andrew,
You have some good points and ask some good questions. As I was reading your most recent comment, it seems like you are saying that to truly believe in Jesus, one has to believe eveything Jesus ever taught (what is recorded in Scripture anyway). Am I understanding you correctly?
If so, how can you ever share with a person enough information for them to receive eternal life? Furthermore, how can you ever know if you yourself are saved? What if you or I have some misunderstandings about what Jesus taught? If we do (I’m certain I do), then I don’t believe exactly what He taught. Therefore, do I not really believe in Him?
And regarding John 20:31, I listened today to a message given by John Niemela at the Omaha Regional 2007 Grace Conference (you can order an mp3 CD of the entire conference for only $5 from the Grace Evangelical Society – 972-257-1160), and somone asked about John 20:31. His answer was that John 20:31 is the purpose/summary statement of the book, but it does not contain the minumum for how a person receives eternal life. I think Niemelas words were that “the purpose statement aims high.” This is a new idea for me, and I need to mull over it some more.
Certainly, the more a person knows and believes about Jesus the better. That’s why we all keep learning more about Him. But I think we may be on dangerous ground if we say we don’t really believe in the Messiah until we believe everything He taught.
Maybe you are not saying this at all…as I read your comment again, maybe you just saying that we must belive that Jesus always speaks the truth and never lies. But even here, we run into problems. How can a person make this claim if they haven’t investigated the teachings of Jesus? What if at conversion they say they believe Jesus always speaks the truth, but then, once they start to study the teachings of Jesus, they run across some things that they just can’t believe? Are they saved or aren’t they? Does their failure to believe some of what Jesus teaches prove that they didn’t really believe in the first place?
Now we are back in the Lordship Salvation camp, except with doctrine rather than behavior.
But again, maybe I’ve misunderstood you, so please correct me if I have.
Thanks for weighing in!
Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for you comments on this. Sorry if I wasn’t very clear on what a person has to believe in order to get saved: I think they have to believe what Jesus says is true rather than believe everything he says because as you point out, such a view leaves no room for assurance of salvation! So as you say, such a view is dangerous ground.
With regard to the view that saving faith is believing that what Jesus says is true you raised a few objections. If a person says they believe that Christ is always correct and then in the future they come across something that he says and they don’t believe it, in such a case I would say that either a) They never believed Christ in the first place or b) They have left their first faith. In the latter situation I would see them as still being saved but simply having left what they first believed.
You also commented (although with reference to the view that saving faith is believing in everything that Christ taught but it equally applies to this view) questioning what happens if we misunderstand something that Christ says. Does this count as unbelief? This is the most difficult question I face and I admit it openly. I’m not trying to push this view forward as if I’m totally convinced it’s true, I’m simply trying to work out what view fits the Scripture. So with this question I would suggest tentatively that a person believing that Christ is true yet who misunderstands something, whether they are saved or not depends on what it is they are misunderstanding. If they are misunderstanding something clear such as Christ’s promise of eternal life then I would say they are not believing. However if they are believing something difficult to understand I would allow that they are actually believing that Christ is true. Having said this, I can see that my solution is totally arbitrary and not at all based upon Scripture (as far as I can see).
My biggest question in this whole issue is with the handling of John 20:31. Last night and today I’ve been struggling with it. The thought that the purpose statement aims high crossed my mind but still I struggle with it because what is there in the context that would lead to such an idea? But if we say that believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God is the minimum content of saving faith, then because the concept of Christ’s messiahship is so fabulously rich, how can we be sure that we have believed it? It raises many of the same questions that you’ve already raised about my current view. On the other hand, if we say that John’s purpose statement aims high and that believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God is more than the minimum content for saving faith, it is a very unusual way for John to express himself – very unusual. It would be like saying, “If you believe everything written about Christ in the Old Testament is fulfilled in Him, then you have eternal life.” But that is, if I’m not mistaken, quite strange because why would he list more than necessary when all through his gospel he’s been listing the necessary requirements of saving faith in verses like John 3:16 and others. Probably there’s something I’m missing in all of these thoughts that would provide a much better solution but for now I’m stuck! If you’ve got any ideas I’d be glad to here them!
God bless,
Andrew.
Hi Andrew,
I sure do appreciate your sincere desire to understand what that SPECIFIC TRUTH IS that we are to believe to have eternally life with God. You have a real struggle going on in your heart with this issue (seems to me), and you seem to truly want to know. John 20:31 does not seem to be helping you. Could I ask you a question that may be personal? Are you personally struggling with your own assurance of salvation? Are you asking yourself if you have believed in Jesus Christ in the biblical sense? If not, what exactly are you believing that brings you 100% assurance that you are eternally saved? Is your assurance based on the fact that you believe ENOUGH information about Jesus that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved? Where exactly are you getting your confidence from, if you do have that assurance at all?
Please forgive me if I’ve become too personal with my questions. I may be totally off base here. You may not be struggling at all with your own personal assurance of salvation. But IF you are, have you read Bob Wilkin’s wonderful book, “SECURE AND SURE…Grasping the Promises of God.” I know a number of people who have been helped by that book.
Also, there is a wonderful CD (or cassette tape) of Paul Carpenter’s testimony. He struggled with his own assurance far beyond what most people do. The journey that he took was a journey that almost ended in total calamity. He was in his senior year in Bible College, getting ready to go into the ministry when he totally fell a part. But God rescued him by showing him how he could have 100% assurance of his salvation. It’s the most powerful testimony of anyone I have ever heard who struggled with this particular issue and came to have 100% complete confidence in his eternal salvation. It’s an awesome testimony. I highly recommend it to anyone who is struggling with assurance of salvation.
You can order both Bob’s book and Paul’s CD at GES’s website…..
http://www.faithalone.org/bookstore/index.html
You may have to ask about Paul’s CD. I’m not sure if it is on the list?
I’ll be praying that God gives you complete understanding as you search the Scriptures for answers.
God’s best to you,
Grace (blog name) 🙂
Hi Grace,
Thanks for your comments. I’m not actually struggling with assurance of my salvation since I believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God and according to the word of God, I have eternal life. My biggest question is regarding how to present this truth to unbelievers who may not have a Biblical worldview or background. In order to convince them that Jesus is the Messiah, what do they have to know? I feel that the common FG view is reductionistic in saying that belief in Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God can be equated with believing that he guarantees eternal life and so I’m struggling to find a view that avoids being reductionistic and yet at the same time allows people to be sure that they have believed that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God.
The view that I’ve been tentatively proposing is that believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God can be summarised as believing that he is truthful. But that view as you know isn’t without it’s problems so at the minute I’m thinking carefully about it and I appreciate your prayers.
God bless,
Andrew.
Hi Andrew,
I understand better now what your question is. Thank you.
Probably anything more that I say just becomes REDUNDANT. But I really have a desire to TRY to get where you’re at in your questions.
I think you just can’t fathom that someone can “just” believe in Jesus for eternal life and have it BECAUSE you think they may be believing in the “WRONG” Jesus. I think you are saying that you need more background to believe in the “biblical” Jesus. Am I right?
Well, let me try this. Let’s just say that someone picks up a small booklet of the book of John. I understand that there is a debate going on regarding if John is enough. But lets just assume that this book is all they read. IS THE BOOK OF JOHN ENOUGH??? If you say it’s not, then the remainder of what I’m going to say means nothing. So before you go on reading my comments, I hope you will answer for yourself if you think the book of John is enough to come to faith in Jesus Christ for eternal life.
Let’s assume that this person reads about this One whom God sent into the world (His Son) to give eternal life to those who believe in Him. What does it mean to “believe in Him?” It doesn’t mean to believe ABOUT Him. It doesn’t mean to believe all kinds of truths regarding Him. It means to believe IN Him. In Him for what? For a good life? For lots of pleasures? There are many things that we could believe about Jesus that are true. But the book of John was written so that people would believe IN Him FOR eternal life. Believe God’s PROMISE. If you’re reading John 3:16 and believe that this One whom God sent gives eternal life to the one who believes in Him for it, IS THAT ENOUGH?
YES! That’s enough. God promised.
We don’t have to worry that maybe we believed in the “wrong” Jesus because we didn’t have enough information. The information that John gives is all we need to pass from death to life. If a person reads those words, or hears those words, and believes them, that person is saved forever. That’s the promise in the book of John. IS THAT ENOUGH?
I wish you God’s best in your search for understanding.
Grace (blog name)
Hi Grace,
I’m very close to being convinced having read through you own posts and the previous posts. However, there are a few nagging questions in my mind. Take for example John 1:41 where Andrew tells Peter that he has found the Messiah. Did Andrew believe that Jesus guaranteed him eternal life? Again in John 9:38 did the healed man believe that he had eternal life? Cases such as these hinder me from holding you’re view yet Grace, but I’m being convinced!
God bless and thank you for helping me,
Andrew.
Andrew, you are a true THINKER!!! I appreciate that about you.
🙂
You raise some very good questions. My answer would be…… I DON’T KNOW?
BUT one thing I DO KNOW FOR SURE….. IF they understood that Messiah was the giver of eternal life and they had faith in Him alone for eternal life, then YES, they had eternal life. But I’m not smart enough to answer your question as to whether or not they understood Messiah to be the giver of eternal life AT THAT POINT.
The Woman at the well believed that Messiah would come and tell all things, but she hadn’t yet believed in the Messiah as the giver of eternal life. She must not have fully understood what it meant to believe in the Messiah at that point. Later she did come to believe in Jesus as the Messiah….. giver of eternal life. Maybe Jeremy, or Antonio can jump in here and help us out….. or someone else. I know those guys are extremely busy. Just whenever!
🙂
Thanks for making me think, too.
Grace
Andrew and Grace,
Thanks for being so gracious toward each other and providing such thoughtful, gracious questions. This is the way theological debate should be carried out!
I commend you both and am being taught and challenged by what both of you write. Thank you, and keep it up!
Thanks Jeremy for your kind and encouraging words. I feel the exact same way about you. I always learn something from you and are challenged in my thinking. Your latest post is a real eye grabber… “St. Pete’s Church Bar and Grill!” I’m sure there’s a lot of talking going on about that one!!! I loved it!
🙂
I also want to say thanks Jeremy for your kind words. (Thank you too Grace for the irenic debate/discussion!) Has anybody got any ideas about the questions I raised in my last post because they bother me! At times like this I can’t wait for the GES NT commentary!
Blessings,
Andrew.
Hi Grace,
I emailed Antonio with this:
“I know you’re really busy most of the time but I was wondering if you could help me with a tricky problem (for me anyway!) with regards to saving faith and believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. Basically my question is this: Numerous times in John’s gospel certain individuals such as Andrew, Nathanael, and the man born blind (9:35) come to confess that Jesus is the Messiah but in the context there is nothing to indicate that they believe in Christ for eternal life. However, do those individuals believe that Jesus guarantees them eternal life? Was the guarantee of eternal life something that Jews of that time realised the Messiah would offer? It seems to me that they didn’t believe in Christ for eternal life (but that is an argument from silence so I’m not 100% sure) but nonetheless believed him to be the Messiah. It’s really confusing me at the minute but maybe I’m making some false assumptions. If you know of resources that would help or if you have any ideas yourself I would be very grateful.”
Shortly after, Antonio replied to me:
“Great question. Let me answer this way.
John’s purpose is rock-solid, and his terms by which one receives eternal life are clear. He everywhere states it. Jesus is clear throughout the gospel of John what the specific content of faith is. We only have a minute and miniscule portion of his engagements and discourses with the players in John’s gospel. They can be read in a matter of minutes! Surely they were much longer than is what is recorded for us by John.
The saving proposition for John is that anyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ (and/or the Son of God) has eternal life. John is clear in identifying what specific import of those terms are soteric. Apart from John’s importation, there are many elements already present in those titles/designations. Yet what makes faith that Jesus is the Christ soteric is the important and specific identity that John gives to them.
As you have read me state, in Jesus’ discourse with Martha, a strict identification is made between the terms ‘Christ’ and ‘Son of God’ with ‘the One who guarantees eternal life and resurrection to the believer’. Now what ever import those terms have apart from the equation that has been made in John 11:25-27, apart from these specific imports, belief that Jesus is the Christ is not salvific. It must be understood that to believe that Jesus is the Christ means that as the Christ He guarantees eternal life to the believer. This is the Johannine sense of these terms.
The stories that we have of Nathaniel, Nicodemus, and the man born blind, can be read within a minute. It must be obvious that these are mere fractions of what the discourses were. They are major condensations of what actually occurred. From the emphasis of the book of John alone, it should be apparent that the soteric import of the Christ, the Son of God, was implied or that such information was explicitely stated in the discourses.
Jesus is clear in the gospel of John that He promises eternal life to all who believe in Him. This is the soteric function of the Christ. To repeat these things with every discourse would be redundant. Redundancy is a cheif error in good writing skills. John wrote a masterful treatise on how one can receive eternal life. He is clear and makes identifications and equations. Jesus makes plain statements.”
I think what Antonio says makes a lot of sense – it’s the only option I can see! So in light of many of the posts here, reading and listening to some FG material and the discussion here especially with Grace, I think that it makes most sense to see the essential element of believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, to be his guarantee of eternal life.
So in response to Jeremy’s question at the start, Yes, the person is saved and has eternal life. She’s just a bit confused and if she logically applied her orthodox beliefs, she would have to abandon her unorthodox beliefs. Still, she has eternal life.
To Grace: Thank you for your help with this! God bless you!
To others who helped me here: Thanks you and blessings to you!
To Jeremy: You’ve stimulated my thinking by this post and set me straight with regard to saving faith! God bless you and keep up the challenging blog posts!
Hi Andrew,
What a joy to read your latest post. Nothing thrills me more than to see God open the eyes of one who is diligently seeking Him.
I would love to communicate more with you, but I can’t improve upon what you just said. You’ve made my day!!!
🙂
I’m going to ask Jeremy to give you my e-mail address IF you’re interested in more communication with me. I do have a couple things I would like to share with you, but I don’t think this format is the best way of doing that.
You have been so gracious in your writings. I have truly enjoyed it.
Thank you also Jeremy and Antonio for the insight that you’ve given. EXCELLENT!
Rejoicing in Jesus,
Grace (blog name) 🙂
Hi Grace,
Thanks again for your kind words. Feel free to email me at
an**************@go********.com
.
God bless,
Andrew.
Hi Andrew,
Just wanted you to know that I tried to e-mail you, but it wouldn’t go through. It said….. “No matches found.”
Are you sure that your e-mail is printed correctly?
I’m going out of town for a week. I’ll check back later to see if there is anymore good comments on the blog.
Have a great week enjoying the Lord.
🙂
Sorry Grace, I included a dot at the end of my email address. If you take that out it will work fine! =
an**************@gm***.com
Blessings,
Andrew
Neither. I don’t say the following to judge or condemn or mock. Rather I say this to encourage others brothers and sisters to be consumed with Christ only and to not cause real believers to fall away by our judging. I say the following with much love, kindness, and respect with the intent to edify and be edified.
Is this where our focus should be as believers? We should be so consumed with living in Christ that our flesh is dead. That our wanting in the flesh to be able to know the answer to this question has been crucified with Christ. We should be so consumed with Christ NOTHING else matters.
If Christ tells us to reveal Him to her, then we should. If Christ does not lead us to it, then we should not strive to save her soul by the flesh. For if the Spirit is not leading us to save her soul, than no matter how good an act or compassionate or loving it is, it is still walking and fulfilling the things of the flesh not the things of the Spirit.
Matthew 13:24-30. If the angels cannot tell the difference, why do we think we can? These judgments can lead real believers away from the Lord. Let’s be cautious about these things so that we do not cause our brothers to stumble.
Kaley,
I actually agree with you now. My view towards others has RADICALLY changed in the past three years. Something happened to me after I wrote this post, and this event changed everything. This post reflects the way I used to be…. always trying to determine who was in and who was out based on my judgment of their beliefs. I still fall back into that mindset from time to time, but not as often as in the past.
Thanks for the comment!
Wonderful, brother! So glad to know I am not alone in seeing things this way. Cheers to being entirely consumed by Christ!
Wow, Kaley! Well said! As i was reading through all these posts my gospel hairs were definitely feeling split, and i was feeling oppressed. I absolutely abhore arguments over the words in the Bible. Where the rubber meets the road is does this precious soul feel she KNOWS Jesus? Does she love as Jesus loved? John 13:35 “By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
I think we need to stop this verbal hair-splitting business and DO what Jesus said! (Sorry, Jeremy, I know you enjoy this! Ha!) I question my OWN salvation quite often because i have done Everything It Says but can’t usually feel anything. So i have to simplify it down to what i KNOW: 1)nature shows me there is a God 2)totally makes sense that He would have to come here Himself as one of His own creation and let the sin kill him so that Life could be reborn, and 3) I feel powerful love for fellow humanoids. So, Jeremy, find where her love is at.
I’m chewing the cud lately about the difference between teaching information that leads one into relationship with Christ and experiencing relationship with Christ that results in teaching.
I was a finish carpenter and general contractor for 12 years. I cannot verbally teach anyone how to do truly skilled finish carpentry. There is a “feel” that goes to it. Your fingers have to tell you things sometimes that your eyes cannot…smoothness of the joint…friction chatter of the sander…
But I’m suppose to believe that faith, love, hope, and “proper” belief in the Divine are totally cool to learn via information gathering?
I didn’t follow the rules on this post because I’m a deviant and you know that. Instead I ask a follow-up question; if this 2007 woman were found alive and well today what would we say if she now wore a Burqa and prayed to Allah three times a day?
** Jeremy, these 2007 posts continue to enlighten me about your period of shift that led to a crisis of faith. Also, the comments reveal the crowd that you had to leave behind in order to wind up hanging out with reprobates like me. How different does the world look when hindsight reveals radical re-calibrations? Radical re-calibrations give me a fresh perspective on other’s potential for the same. We’re all shifting and flexing and fluid, but we argue points that are static and rigid. Somehow that seems fairly stupid to me now.
What a question!
Well, following my “newer” approach toward not judging people, I would probably withhold judgment and just try to get to know her and hang out with her and find out why she made the switch.
Although… if she is wearing a burqa then she is probably married to a Muslim man, who probably would not let me befriend her too much… or even speak to her. So, maybe I would try to befriend him?
**And yes, the world looks much different for me now. Most days, I like it, but that old world was so much more comfortable and easy.
Ever see a competitive athlete that embraced comfortable and easy? No way!
Many advantages to staying hungry, alert, and responsive.
Heard a sermon on being content a couple weeks ago. I know that the speaker was well-intentioned, but I couldn’t help but walk away from it with a renewed commitment to maintain my discontent. I don’t want to be comfortable and neither do you.
Don’t make me quote Robert Frost…I hate quoting Frost.
I read your book, Bonar, and have read many of your comments here. I usually don’t have a problem with what you say. However, on this one point I disagree: “reprobates like me”, unless we look at that characterization as applying to all of us.
The first draft of that sentence stated, “reprobates like those of us following your tweets.” I quickly edited it because I’ve learned the hard way that it’s much easier to say, “reprobates like me,” rather than have someone take offense to my dry humor.
That’s about as close as I come to tempering myself these days. Sorry…
Bonar, I also have a dry sense of humor. That is my way of saying I don’t think you’re a reprobate at all. You’re one of the few who has their head screwed on straight.
There are a few of us around, with our backward facing heads.
She doesn’t seem to believe the RIGHT Jesus, so she’s committing idolatry. She believes in another god, which doesn’t save, so I’d have to say no.
This was definitely a big issue with some of the people I was debating back then, and it still is, I guess.
How much do we need to know and believe about Jesus before we are believing in the right Jesus?
She seems to believe most of the essentials…
Well, would Paul say that? It’s not that she believes we’ll be mini-gods or something, because Lord knows we all have errors in doctrinal matters. It’s that she believes God us Allah. Allah is a hateful, vindictive God. He has never loved anyone. And he himself says he never had a son nor ever will. Soooo, if Christ (who is the second person of the trinity, equal with God), the Christ SHE is trusting in MAY forgive her. Because the Quran says Allah MAY forgive you, depending on his mood. I’m starting to think the antichrist could be a Muslim. Or at least the beast will be. I might post about it this week. There are MANY people who have trust and faith in something tha cannot save them. If I were in a car accident, and the only way for me to call the ambulance is to press the red button, but I hit the GREEN button (which is the self destruct button) believing it’s the red, the ambulance won’t come (not until after I’m toast at least). So it’s not WHAT we believe, but WHO we believe in. Is it a savior who doesn’t care if we really don’t beleve everything he said, or the true risen Christ? Just sayin.
Anthony,
Yes, I hear what you are saying. I just think that doctrinal correctness is more of an issue for sanctification than justification, and I don’t find much in Scripture which creates a list of things that must be believed before a person can be justified. So I am not prepared to make such a list.
As far as I can tell, she seems to believe in the Jesus of Scripture, but she is just off on some of the details, as we all are.
Here is a link to an article I wrote a while back that touches on this subject. “This Jesus” http://koinoniatoday.blogspot.com/
No. Saying you believe in Jesus is not enough. The demons in hell believe in him. You must accept what He taught. Islam and the bible teach a lot of contradictory things, they can’t both be right. I could go on but I think that’s enough to start a discussion.
https://redeeminggod.com/even-the-demons-believe/
The point I intended (aside from demons not being savable, and yes they do believe in Jesus and know who He is) is that you cannot hold two contradictory belief systems as true and expect to be save by one of them. The god described in islam is not our God. You cannot serve two masters.
I just realized this original post is 2 or 3 years old? Sheesh! I did reply to Kaley-somebody’s comment tho, if you want my thoughts. 🙂
Yes. It is old. Maybe closer to 5 years. I occasionally do some work on old posts and repost them here on FB for people’s feedback. Thanks for the input on that comment!