If it is on the cross that Jesus most fully reveals God, and it is on the cross that Jesus became sin for the world, then this means that in the Old Testament, God also was becoming sin for the world.
Just as Jesus became repulsive on the cross by taking on the sin of the world, the proper response to reading about the violence of God in the Old Testament is to be repulsed. We are repulsed by the violence of God in the Old Testament because we are supposed to be repulsed.
God Takes on the Violence of Israel
The violence of God in the Old Testament is exactly the violence of God, but is God taking on the violence of Israel. Israel, much like any other nation in history, was a child of its times, and set about living and functioning in a way that resembled the surrounding nations. Often this led to acts of war and violence against other people.
And though this was not the way God wanted them to behave, when they set out in these violent and warlike directions, God took their actions upon Himself.
He took responsibility for their behavior. He did not condone or command their actions, but when they set out to live in a way that was contrary to His will and ways, He inspired the biblical authors to put the violent actions of Israel upon Himself, so that He could take the blame and the shame for their sin.
God fights against violence by recognizing it for the evil that it is, and by taking the pain and suffering caused by evil upon Himself, thus emptying it of its power. God defeats violence by absorbing the violence on Himself. By not responding to violence with more violence, but simply taking the violence onto Himself, the infinite spiral of violence unravels itself upon the scarred and bloodstained back of God.
If he can manage to absorb the violence onto himself rather than either responding with new violence of his own or hardening himself in a way that deflects the original violence back onto the world, he has a means of dampening the reaction and winding down the conflict.
… Evil is stymied because it simply cannot get the usual chain reaction as much as started. It punches itself out against the defenselessness of the [suffering] servant (Eller, King Jesus’ Manual, 161.
The Bible Says What God Wants
Look at it another way: If the Bible is inspired and inerrant, then it records exactly what God wanted recorded. And if we read the Bible backward, then we read Jesus back into those violent portrayals of God in the Old Testament rather than read those depictions of God forward onto Jesus.
When we do this, we can assume that whatever appears inconsistent with the nature and character of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospels, comes not from God but from agents who oppose the will and ways of God, or from those who simply do not understand what God is truly like.
But often these passages in the Old Testament will state that the instructions were given by God, and if we read these texts in the light of Jesus, then we understand that although God was not telling them to do such things, He nevertheless inspired them to write what they did so that He could take the blame for their sinful actions. Just as Jesus came to destroy the devil’s work, to become sin for us, and to reveal God to us through His entire life and ministry and especially on the cross, then this also is what God was doing in the Old Testament.
God inspired the Old Testament authors to write about Him in a violent way so that He could do the same thing for Israel that Jesus did on the cross. Just as Jesus became sin for us, God became sin for Israel, and in this way, hopefully, stops the cycle of violence from continuing.
God Takes on the Violence of All Humanity
Of course, God’s action of taking the blame for the sin of His people does not begin with Israel, but with the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. From the very first sin, God takes the blame and violence upon Himself.
He does this in at least two ways.
First, He does not argue with Adam, Eve, and the serpent all implicate Him in their shame. Satan blames God for putting the tree in the garden and for wanting to keep the knowledge of good and evil to Himself (Genesis 3:5). Eve blames God by saying that she was tricked by the serpent (Genesis 3:13), who was in God’s garden. Adam blames God for giving the woman to him (Genesis 3:12).
God, like Jesus after Him, never utters a word in His defense.
But even in Genesis 3:14-19, God takes the blame for the evil that comes upon the world as a result of Adam and Eve’s sin. Many interpret these verses as God cursing the serpent, the man, the woman, and the ground.
And while a surface reading of the text does seem to indicate that this is what happens (although the word “curse” is never used in connection with Adam and Eve themselves), a more careful reading of the text reveals that God is more likely just describing the natural consequence of their decision to rebel against Him and hand dominion of the earth over to Satan.
Yet by pronouncing what will happen as a result of sin, God takes the blame for it.
t appears as if He is the one actively causing enmity, strife, sorrow, pain, thorns, thistles, and death.
People Sin. Bad Things Happen. God Takes the Blame.
This sort of pattern is followed throughout the rest of Scripture. People sin, bad things happen, and God takes the blame.
When people see God taking the blame for the violence and evil of His people (sometimes by “commanding” them to do it), they feel that they must somehow justify the violence and explain how it is really “good.” But this is the wrong approach. God is repulsed and saddened by the destructive violence, which is why He takes the blame for it. But He knows that by taking the blame upon Himself, He will hopefully stop the cycle of violence from continuing, for while a person might retaliate in violence against a violent neighbor, how does one retaliate against a violent God?
When we look at what Israel does in the Old Testament and are repulsed by it, we can know that we are feeling the right thing, for this is what Jesus did on the cross.
He became repulsive. He became despised, rejected, forsaken, and shamed (Isa 53:3).
So also with God in the Old Testament.
If we despise what He is described as doing and are tempted to reject and forsake those shameful depictions of God, then we are feeling exactly what God wants us to feel.
Rejection of the violent portrayals of God is good and godly because God is not violent.
How can a God who says "Love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44) be the same God who instructs His people in the Old Testament to kill their enemies?
These are the sorts of questions we discuss and (try to) answer in my online discipleship group. Members of the group can also take ALL of my online courses (Valued at over $1000) at no charge. Learn more here: Join the RedeemingGod.com Discipleship Group I can't wait to hear what you have to say, and how we can help you better understand God and learn to live like Him in this world!
I think you’re on to something Jeremy.
Thanks. I hope it helps us all see Jesus in the violent portrayals of God in the Bible when we begin looking at some of those texts soon.
Yes. God in the Bible takes the blame for evil in a way that embarrasses even Calvinists. “I make good and create evil”. And since he gave us free will it follows he is responsible for our evil. I guess you are building an atonement theology on this? I have often thought classical penal substitution fails because it proposes a kind of legal fiction, whereas we should say God takes the blame because though not guilty he is actually responsible. I’m developing a theory you can use if you haven’t proposed it already.
It’s that God condemns Jesus on the cross because he broke the letter of the law. With the woman caught in adultery he should have thrown the first stone himself according to Mosaic law. He was without sin and entitled to do so even on his own restriction of the law’s application. He can be said to be condemned by God as God gave the law and the legal system that condemned Jesus. But God also vindicates him in the resurrection for fulfilling the spirit of the law (love God and neighbour). The letter kills the spirit gives life.
I think this could be the basis of a reworking of penal substitution based upon legal fact (Jesus broke the letter of the law), rather than legal fiction. And the moral fact that God is responsible for evil. So you aren’t alone in your musings. If you were though you couldn’t be a heretic, as no one will have thought to condemn the heresy. That’s how open theism gets a pass.
Interesting theory, Giles. It will certainly take some fleshing out, though I don’t think Jesus committed any sin against God which made Him deserving of death.
Anyway, yes, many of these posts are part of an attempt to build on the Christus Victor view of the atonement (which is the one I hold to). Like you, I do not hold to the penal substitution theory of the atonement. “Legal fiction” is the perfect way of describing it.
Thanks Jeremy. Yes I’m a Christus Victor/Girardian.But concerned to treat seriously the passages quoted by the Penal Substitutionists. I don’t think Jesus sinned as God (as opposed to the heirs of Moses) judges by spirit not letter.
But here I must ask am I the only one who has noted this about the genocides? God didn’t originally command them. He said drive them out. Only after the Golden calf did he say kill them all. Isn’t is possible he commanded genocide to prevent genocide. Knowing Israel would rebel. Had he said be nice they would have killed them all. As it was they left many alive. Yes Saul was rebuked for not killing the Amelekite King, but I’d say because he rebelled for the wrong reasons. He killed the innocent and spared the guilty. David did no genocide but was a man after Gods heart. Though not allowed to build the Temple because of such blood as he did shed.
But I also think your take, that God takes our blame, is very important.
INteresting. I have never read that view before. It is sort of “Keep off the grass” reverse-psychology sort of approach.
Of course, if true, God’s command to commit genocide didn’t stop Israel from doing it. They still did, but not completely. Which I guess isn’t true genocide. So you think they would have completed the task if God had said, “Be kind and gracious to them”?
Kinda like Soli Deo Gloria said above, I think you’re on something Jeremy. No, not really. That’s ad hominem and a bad joke. But, it sure does feel like you’re begging the question.
Does God, in your understanding, ever cause human beings pain, suffering, or death?
Hi Dan. Ha! I laughed at the joke.
I think I might have taken a stab at your question in replying to an earlier comment of yours. My super basic answer was that God created a world with systems in place where death and violence do occur, and so in that sense, God does God pain, suffering, and death, but I would not say that God actively is involved in killing people. At least, not most of the time…
We used to play a parlour game called consequences. Like Gods people we knew the results of doing wrong. We would blame the organiser of the game and not ourselves.
My atheist friend says God is wicked a murderer of women and chidren. I have never from the first time of reading the Bible ever thought God was in the wrong, in fact all the way through the narrative God has pleaded and wept for His creation.
You may be correct Jeremy but I have always known that God is good and
just as Jesus suffered and took the whole of the workds sin on Himself so did
His Father take on all the rebellion before His Son paid the ultimate sacrifice.
We Christians are given the responsibility to carry this truth into an unbelieving world. Millions of us have died carrying this burden fir our saviour and those past now live eternally with Him. Very soon the revelation of the truth through our witness will bring our persecutors up short so they to can be saved.
God loves those who hate Him or do not believe in Him and patiently waits until all of creation returns to Him. God Is Good.
Clive,
Yes, you know the heart of God. Like you, I believe that God has always wept for and pleaded with His wayward creation to return to Him.
Will you be writing on any specific examples of violence “commanded” by God? I have read the ones on the flood and enjoyed them but these posts just make me want more. I love your take on this but was hoping you could help me understand better how to read through these violent portrayals.
Yes. I will look at many. And very soon. In fact, most of the posts on the flood have already been written, and I will summarize them later this week. Following that, we will move on to other violent portions of Scripture to consider them.
God takes on our violence and our blame. I love this view of God. God is Love.
“He did not condone or command their actions, but when they set out to live in a way that was contrary to His will and ways, He inspired the biblical authors to put the violent actions of Israel upon Himself, so that He could take the blame and the shame for their sin.” Are you saying God inspired the authors to write something that was not true?
By the way, I don’t have a satisfying answer yet to the “God” violence in OT
No, not exactly. God does not lie, nor does He tell others to lie. I am searching for the right words to say it, but essentially I am trying to say something along the lines that God took the blame for that which He allowed to happen “on his watch.” The full book will attempt to provide a longer and more comprehensive explanation.
I thought I should check my own claim. I found a verse prior to the Golden Calf where God says “I will wipe them out” Exodus 23v23. And one after where he says he will drive them out. 33v2.
One can still say God commanded genocide anticipating Israel’s rebellion, but it’s not neatly arranged in the way I thought, with genocide being mentioned only post Golden Calf. Though I couldn’t find a pre Calf command per se (as opposed to a prophecy).
To your question, yes, my theory does require that the genocide would have been completed absent God’s command. It’s got to be my theory or yours I think. The alternative, saying somehow it was right they be killed, always raises this question for me. If God can really command genocide how can you rule out the possibility that other genocides have been (or will be) commanded by God? If you are a German camp guard in WW2 how do you know Hitler hasn’t received a divine mandate for genocide?
You are right. I do not like the alternative, that somehow genocide is right. It has caused numerous problems over the years with churches blessing wars.
With respect to the criticism of your theory that it entails God saying something not true, I disagree.
We have two accounts of David’s census. One says God incited him to number Israel. The other says Satan did. Is one wrong? Or do we say that one perspective views the matter from the point of view of Gods sovereignty (where everything that happens, including Satans activity is ultimately from God, in that he permits it) and the other from the point of view of Gods Love (from which evil is contrary to his will).
Despite the efforts of translators to obscure matters God does say he creates evil. And that’s clearly so in some sense as he creates free will knowing it will be abused.
I wouldn’t say God actively creates evil. But as you point out, He knew upon granting free will that evil actions were a possible abuse of this gift.
http://stfonlinestore.com/pdf/deathpen_whole.pdf
Have you considered the death penalty and why God set up that law? You can read more on the link I left but one of the reasons is to end the activities of evil people.Exod. 21:12-17; Lev. 24:17-22; Num. 35:16-31; Deut. 19:1-11.
A redemptive benefit of God’s wrath is that it shows people that God’s patience and mercy are not endless. God can and will put an eventual end to man’s defiance, and His use of wrath makes that point (2 Pet. 2:6).
Also, God’s use of power and wrath being employed against the wicked is a great comfort, and even can be a source of joy, to those people who are being dominated by evil authorities, which perhaps is not as evident in the USA today but think of the joy for the people when an evil dictatorship is squashed.
As the Psalmist says, “The righteous will be glad when they are avenged, when they bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked” (Ps. 58:10. , Deut. 32:43; Job 22:19; Ps. 52:4-7; Jer. 11:20; 20:11-13).
These reasons help explain why Scripture would say that God is “desiring to show his wrath and to make his power known.” It is not as if God “desires” to show His wrath, but rather, given how horrible evil would be if it were allowed to continue unchecked, God “desires” to bring it to an end by His wrath and power.
Emilio,
agreed, God desires to bring evil to an end… but what most of us so quickly jump to assume when we hear/read “by His wrath and power”, I believe will be by His power all right.
He overcomes “not by might, nor by power,” but by His Spirit. And what is His Spirit? For those who know Him intimately, it is Love.
Love (Him) covers a multitude of sin!
To even approach His presence/Glory ever so slightly is to feel His “wrath” of course. This is simply due to no sin/evil being able to be in His presence (or even near it). This is most likely why “no man can see God, and live”.
It (sin/evil) would be burned away… destroyed; along with any living soul that is not made righteous by the precious blood of the Lamb.
Hallelujah that the Spirit make alive our dead souls… again, by nothing other than the blood of Jesus.
Can I get an Amen? 😉
Peace!
M.
I will do a whole series of posts on wrath as well. Hopefully I can provide some clarification on that tricky topic.
Honestly, the death penalty is a big hot-topic. I found a resource from Prison Fellowship that did a good job presenting views with little bias.
1) Some believe that the death penalty is required. The link you put has a bunch of support.
2) Some believe that the death penalty should be gone. They see that Jesus emphasized forgiveness and called for mercy.
3) Some believe that it is permitted (though not required). Paul recognized that the state has the ability to do DP in Romans 13, but they can choose not to.
Personally, I am in Camp 3. I agree that the DP has its uses (to restrain evil). At the same time, there are plenty of Bible characters who did stuff that deserved DP but received forgiveness, usually since they repented (Cain, Moses, David, Paul).
I don’t mind having a DP — it just needs to be done right. God has a set procedure for Israelites on how to do DP, meaning that they can’t just immediately kill someone — there needs to be good evidence (2+ witnesses, for example). With the racism issue, the US DP system to me is kinda broken and needs to be fixed.
I also agree that God’s “wrath” is really his expression of love to his people because God does not BS to happen to his people. God made it clear in the Bible that he is sad when he does wrath on people and prefers that the people repent (like what David did).
There are two lenses with which God can look at humanity.
He can zoom our and view us from an eternal perspective, i.e. he can look at us from beyond time and space, seeing the end from the beginning.
He can also zoom in close. He can come to earth like Jesus did. He can view the world through our eyes as a close personal friend.
Of course God does not really have two lenses. He see all from every viewpoint all the time, but for the sake of my own explanation I am looking at it this way. So consider my view if you will.
If we imagine God looking at us zoomed out, so to speak, looking at us from beyond time and space he might be all content. He looks around and sees beyond death. He knows where the suffering will end and how it will work out. He knows the redemption and atonement he has made. He sees it all and he is pleased. He did know the end from the beginning and he created it all anyway because he saw the conclusion of it all and said it is good.
We can also imagine God zooming in, coming right next to us. Now it’s much different. With God zoomed in close, standing next to you or me like an old friend he might lean over and say – “This is all messed up. Nothing is going the way I want it to go.” “My will is NOT being done on this earth.” After all, Jesus did tell us to pray for his will to be done, implying that his will is NOT being done on earth. In Ps 78:41 it says that Israel limited God. No, from that “up close view” God’s will is not being done in our world, not much at all.
So in the zoomed out view God is sovereign and he controls everything. It is not contrary to his sovereignty but rather a statement of his sovereignty to say that he has given control of this earth to man kind and we, so often and in so many ways, have given that sovereignty to Satan himself. I don’t mean to shock you saying that Satan is real but I believe he is and more than that, I believe that Adam gave him his power, as does humanity still. God does not allow and will not allow, any spiritual being or anyone at all to have any authority on earth unless he has skin, and bones, unless he is human. By his own decree, even God himself would not make any decision or take any authority on earth except at the word of a human and/or by becoming human himself. The demons called Jesus the son of God because, they knew there was no authority on earth, in any but a son of a human being. That also is why Jesus always called himself the son of man.
So where does that leave us? That will have to wait for part two. I have to see what you all think of this first.
Yes, I like the idea. God definitely knows the end from the beginning, and has the “big picture” perspective. Of course, He is relational and intimate enough to be right down with us in the moment-by-moment nitty-gritty details of life.
The big picture perspective is one reason we can trust Him with the tiny details of life.
Nature itself is violent. Wild animals, seas,, weather systems, and all are good. Part of genetic genesis creation. I think it, s maybe a step to far to say the old testament god is violent. Its more a case of bringing chaos into order. Ain,t easy but gotta be done.