Note: This post is part of the July 2015 Synchroblog.
In the past, I have taught that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality.
But a few weeks ago, after the Supreme Court of the United Stated ruled that gay couples could get legally married, a guy came up to me and said, “This ruling is a sign of the end of the world! Jesus prophesied in Luke 17:34 that when the rapture happens, there will be two men in a bed!”
I went on to show him that in the Greek, the word “men” is not actually there, so all it really says is “There will be two in one bed …”
And besides, there is some question about whether Luke 17 is even referring to the rapture.
But even if the text is referring to a gay couple in bed, and even if the text does teach about the rapture, I pointed out to him that one of the men was taken in the rapture, which means that apparently, God accepted him.
He apparently hadn’t though about this … and so started back-peddling a bit from this text.
But I decided to look into Luke 17:34 a bit more deeply.
Is it just two people in a bed?
As I pointed out to the end-of-the-world alarmist, the word “men” is not in Luke 17:34. The text literally reads:
In that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.
But then I noticed that in the context, our English translations go on in Luke 17:35 to record Jesus talking about two women grinding at the mill. I looked briefly at the Greek here as well, and noticed that the word “women” was not in Luke 17:35, just as the word “men” was not in Luke 17:34. Note that the word “mill” is not in the text either. Luke 17:35 literally says this:
Two will be grinding together; one will be taken and the other left.
So I asked myself, “What am I missing? Why do many English translators supply the word “men” in Luke 17:34 and “women” in Luke 17:35 when neither word is there? So I looked at the verses a little more carefully, and noticed that other words in Luke 17:34-35 revealed the gender of the people in question.
When Luke 17:34 says, “one will be taken and the other left,” the words “one” and “other” are both masculine. By itself, this might not mean that the two people were men, for Greek (as in most languages) can use male words and pronouns to refer generically to “people” whether they are male or female.
But Luke 17:35 is much more clear. When this verse says, “one will be taken and the other left,” the words “one” and “other” are both feminine. A feminine pronouns are only used of women.
So when you compare Luke 17:34 and Luke 17:35, and Luke 17:35 is clearly referring to two women, then it seems pretty clear that Luke 17:34 is referring to two women. The burden of proof lies on those who want to say that Luke 17:35 refers to women while Luke 17:34 refers generically to “people.”
But so what?
Just because two men are in one bed, this doesn’t mean they’re gay.
This is very true.
While rare, it is not completely unheard of for two straight men to share one bed today. They might share a bed for warmth, or for protection, or simply because there is a lack of bed space.
This is especially true of men in ancient Middle-Eastern cultures. Unlike most modern Western males, I read in various sources that men of the Ancient Near East didn’t feel “weirded out” by sharing a bed with another man.
But then I started studying the context further.
One source that really provided some background details for my study was a series of blog posts by Ron Goetz on gays and lesbians in Luke. What follows below is a brief summary of his arguments.
NOTE: I am not saying I agree with Ron Goetz. All I am doing is summarizing his research. I would like your opinion on what he argues, and would like your thoughts about whether or not Jesus does, in fact, mention homosexual couples in Luke 17:34-35, and what this means (if anything) for the debate today about Same-Sex Marriage.
Gay Sex in Luke 17:34-35
Below is a small sampling of what Ron Goetz argues regarding two same-sex couples in Luke 17. Before you criticize what he says, I strongly urge you to go read through his entire series of posts, as it is likely that he has already responded to your question or criticism.
The summary/extended quote from Ron Goetz begins below…
I tell you, in that night,
there shall be two men in one bed;
the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together;
the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(Luke 17:34-35, KJV)
The Context of Sodom
Immediately before the mention of two men in one bed is a lengthy discussion of the destruction of Sodom. Now I don’t believe the sin of Sodom was homosexuality. But there are many today who believe that it was, and I think most of the Jewish believers in Luke’s audience may have believed it as well.
Jesus knew that by recounting key details of Sodom’s destruction, his audience would have man-on-man sex on its mind. Jesus intended for us to understand that the “two men in one bed” were gay.
One key practice for interpreting a passage in the Greek scriptures is to look for its antecedents in the Old Testament.
I’ve only found two Old Testament references to two men laying together.
“Thou shalt not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination” (Leviticus 18:22).
“If a man lie with a man, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” (Leviticus 20:13).
By clearly alluding to the Levitical prohibitions against male homosexuality, followed immediately with his declaration that “one shall be taken, and the other left,” Jesus declared his own acceptance of gays and lesbians, and that gays and lesbians are not automatically rejected by God.
Whether or not you believe in this final separation, or whether or not you believe the Bible, doesn’t matter with regard to the significance of the passage. What is important is that Luke 17:34-35 teaches that sexually active gays and lesbians are not automatically consigned to perdition.
Two Women Grinding Together
In the Hebrew Bible, “grind” is used as an acceptable euphemism for sexual intercourse in at least four places: Job 31:10, Judges 16:21, Isaiah 47:2-3, and Lamentations 5:13.
[Yet] It seems shocking that Jesus would use what sounds to us today like gutter language when referring to lesbian love-making. The idea of Jesus uttering the words “women grinding together” can be very uncomfortable. It certainly was for me. Even though the Old Testament evidence confirmed my hypothesis, it was difficult for me to hear that language coming from the mouth of Christ.
But when you remember that there is earthy language throughout the Bible, in both testaments, we get an understanding that the church’s demand for regal, solemn, respectable language is not a Biblical demand. Our personal and cultural expectations are not necessarily in sync with the scriptures. What sounds like earthy language today were, generally speaking, acceptable Biblical euphemisms.
Solomon’s love poem, the Song of Songs, is well known for its graphic descriptions of romantic love. First century Israel did not have the clinical, scientific nomenclature for sexual matters that we have today, but they did have acceptable ways to discuss these things among adults.
No, Jesus Christ was not using gutter language when he mentions “two women grinding together.” The Old Testament books of Job, Judges, and Lamentations contain the Biblical use of the metaphorical grind. Jesus used the ordinary, acceptable language of his day to refer to lesbian love-making.
[But it is not just a couple of Old Testament texts that use “grind” in this way.]
In Latin, the word “grind,” and the related word “mill,” are both euphemisms for things sexual. The Roman poet Horace (65 to 8 BCE) used “grind” in his endorsement of brothels. Writing in Latin just decades before the birth of Christ, [one author] says that
Once, when a noble left a brothel, “Blessed be thou for thy virtue!” quoth the wisdom of Cato: “for when their veins are swelling with gross lust, young men should drop in there, rather than grind some husband’s private mill.”
His use of both “grind” and “mill” shows that even the presence of the word “mill” does not eliminate the possibility of sexual meanings in the word “grind.” Horace’s usage is very significant because it is proof of the use of “grind” as a euphemism for sexual intercourse in the Roman empire just a few decades before the birth of Christ.
[Such euphemisms are also found in Greek.]
Plutarch (ca A.D. 45 to 120) was born in Greece near Delphi, and was a contemporary of Luke. One of Plutarch’s s, “The Banquet of Seven Wise Men,” is a fictional conversation among some famous men who lived around 650 BCE. After a brief lull in the conversation, Thales of Miletus speaks:
This remark arrested the attention of the whole company, and Thales said jestingly…. “when I was at Lesbos, I heard my landlady, as she was very busy at her handmill, singing as she used to go at her work:
Grind, mill, grind;
For even Pittacus grinds,
King of great Mytilene.
Plutarch records “grind” used as a sexual metaphor in the last quarter of the first century A.D., overlapping the probable years when Luke was composed.
The sexual meanings of “grind” and “mill” were common in Greek society when Luke being composed, and could have been in common usage for as long as 700 years prior to that. There is no room for quibbling over whether or not “grind” and “mill” were used sexually in the Greek language of the first century, and that this layer of meaning was familiar to literate Greeks.
The Lightning and the Eagle
A major piece of evidence supporting the thesis of a deliberate gay theme in Luke’s Small Apocalypse (which I call “Luke’s Gay Apocalypse”) is found in the two primary symbols of Zeus, the supreme god in Roman religion. The symbols of Zeus are the lightning bolt and the eagle, and they appear in Luke 17:24, 37.
I subsequently investigated the Luke 17 passage specifically as the “Q Apocalypse,” and was blessed to find a terrific resource, “Where the Eagles are Gathered”: The Deliverance of the Elect in Lukan Eschatology, by Steven L. Bridge (2003), who connects the lightning and the eagles with Zeus and Ganymede.
The lightning bolt was Zeus’ powerful weapon, and the eagle was sent to retrieve the bolts after Zeus had thrown them. One of the most popular and enduring stories involving the eagle describes the Abduction of Ganymede. According to the story, the King of Troy had a beautiful son named Ganymede, and Zeus found Ganymede irresistibly attractive.
According to the story, the attractive young Ganymede is abducted by an eagle, who in one version is Zeus himself, having transformed himself into an eagle. While the story had several uses (as a paradigm for imperialism and an allegory for Truth), in the Roman era the sexual nature of Ganymede’s relationship with Zeus was widely recognized.
Zeus had numerous liaisons with mortal women, but only one same-sex relationship, and the eagle is vividly associated with his romantic relationship with Ganymede. Just as the donkey reminds Christians of the Nativity and the Triumphal Entry, so also the eagle reminded Romans and Roman subjects of Zeus’ sexual relationship with his cup bearer and servant, Ganymede. The story of Zeus and Ganymede adds a layer of sexual meaning and interest to the eagle’s image which is missing from its common use as a symbol of power.
What we have here are the two chief symbols of Zeus, lightning and eagles, one of which is vividly associated with Zeus’ same-sex relationship with Ganymede, located at the beginning and end of a discrete unit of the third gospel, Luke’s Small Apocalypse. That distance between the verses may seem great, and this distance has obscured their historical and cultural connection. But these were the symbols of Zeus. If we were to read a paragraph that opened with a mention of a “crown of thorns” and ended with a “cross,” no one would doubt that the crucifixion was a central element in that paragraph.
Anywhere in the Roman Empire, someone reading Luke 17:20-37 would immediately recognize Zeus and Ganymede in Luke 17:24, 37.
So are Gay People Accepted by God or not?
The upshot of all this? Once we recognize the common thread running through the major elements of the passage–Zeus and Ganymede, Sodom, and the gay and lesbian couples–the entire passage coheres as a unified whole. Not only do the major elements of the passage become related in a single theme, but several unresolved interpretive questions fall into place as well.
The general topic or theme of the passage is indeed judgment, but the examples Jesus uses to illustrate the enactment of judgment don’t tell us what is worthy of judgment, but what is not worthy of judgment.
And this is one very accurate way of describing the purpose of the passage. We’ve never quite known what the basis of acceptability was for the favored members of these pairs. We have surmised that they have an unspoken relationship with God, that they have faith, that they have remained awake and watchful and kept their lamps trimmed, but the passage has forced us to guess what the difference is between those who are taken and those who are left.
That puzzled guessing is understandable, because the point of the passage never has been to tell us the difference between who is acceptable to God and who is unacceptable. The point has been to tell us that homosexuality is not a factor in a person’s acceptability to God.
People’s sexual orientation is not among the criteria for whether they’re in or whether they’re out.
Luke’s Gay Apocalypse, with the romantically involved gays and lesbians and the gathering of the Eagles around the Body of Christ, tells both Jews and Roman gentiles the “moral of the story.” It is this:
- Non-Celibate Gays and Lesbians are not Rejected by God.
- Homosexuality is Not a Criterion of Acceptability for God.
- Lesbians and Gays are Present in the Final Eschatological Gathering of God’s Elect.
Just because the word “homosexual” doesn’t appear in the gospels doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t talk about it. He did talk about homosexuality, using concrete terms similar to those in the Hebrew scriptures.
I tell you, in that night,
there shall be two men in one bed;
the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together;
the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(Luke 17:34-35, KJV)
Jesus discussed homosexuals in precisely the way we would expect him to, not in abstract terms, but using concrete examples.
The post above was part of the 2015 Sychroblog on Gay Marriage. Below are posts from other bloggers who also contributed. Go read them all to see what they have to say!
- Justin Steckbauer – Gay Marriage, LGBTQ Issues, and the Christian Worldview
- Leah Sophia – Marriage Equality Again
- Tony Ijeh – Thoughts on Gay Marriage
- Tim Nichols – Imago Dei: Loving the Different
- Carlos Shelton – About Gay Marriage
- Wesley Rostoll – Some Things to Consider Regarding Gay Marriage
- K. W. Leslie – Same-sex Marriage
- Paul W. Meier – Gay Marriage: Love is the Narrow Gate
- Tara – Justice for All
- Michelle Torigian – Marriage Equality: The Constantly Expanding Love of God
- Lifewalk Blog – Here I am
- Mary – A Recovering Evangelical Writes about Homosexuality
- Liz – Same Sex Marriage Stuff: Part 1
- Loveday – Gay Marriage in Africa, USA, and the World
- Jea7587 – Loving Your Gay Neighbor, Part 2
- D. L. Webster – Questions of Interacting with Differing Beliefs
Ccw Sparks says
Fascinating.
Alabama Independent says
Brother Myers:
While I do not want to prejudge you with your recent “revelations” as to what you believe describes the “two men in a bed” or “two women at the mill grinding,” I think before anyone interprets this as Jesus not judging one because of their sexual orientation, but obviously of their faith in what Jesus did for them on the Cross, we also need to look at what the Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Paul wrote in I Corinthians 6: 9-10 “Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, or idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.”
Paul pretty much covers the gambit here which includes reference to homosexuals and lesbians. And if you suggest that “effeminate” are not homosexuals or lesbians, then how do you account for other scriptures which seem to condemn homosexuality and lesbianism?
I agree that sin is sin – whether it be stealing or of a sexual nature. But your interpretation of the scriptures referring to “two men in a bed” and “two women at the mill grinding,” will give a green light to those who support same-sex marriage and will increase the attacks upon the Church by those looking for interpretations of scriptures which allow them off the hook for their sinful lifestyle.
Yes, the homosexual as well as the heterosexual, who violates God laws can be forgiven. And we should always pray for those living outside of God’s law regarding sex.
Will appreciate a better explanation of what seems to be some contradiction between the scriptures.
Regards.
Don Webb
Jeremy Myers says
Don,
The Greek words in 1 Cor 6:9 are notoriously difficult to interpret. The three terms in question are pornoi, malakoi, and apsenokoitai.
Furthermore, the phrase “inherit the Kingdom of God” does not mean “enter heaven” though many confuse it with this.
But just for the sake of argument, let us just assume that the entire verse means exactly what you say it means. If so, why do Christians focus so much on just one sin in the list, and ignore all the others? Why are there so many sermons and articles and Tweets against Gay people, and none against thieves (have you ever stolen something? Does America steal from other nations?), those who covet (which of us in America doesn’t covet?), drunkards (ever gotten drunk?), revilers (ever said something negative or angrily about another person?), or extortioners (ever blackmailed someone or used your position or power to get something for yourself?)?
Those Christians who want to use 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 to condemn gay people to hell, need to be consistent and also condemn adulterers, men who look at pornography, those who steal, those who covet, those who get drunk, those who cause arguments and disputes, and those who extort, etc. But we never hear about them, because churches are FULL of people like this.
Sam Riviera says
Agreed. Almost everyone we know who is not a Christian (I’m using the term generically to include everyone who claims the title) sees the inconsistency of how some Christians choose to barely mention many “sins”, but focus on others, sins with which they do not struggle, or at least sins with which they want others to think they do not struggle.
Alabama Independent says
Yes, we have all sinned at some time in our live and committed those sins you listed. I am guilty, but I have confessed those sins and had those sins washed away by the shed blood of Christ.
I agree that we should speak out against the thief and the drunkard, just as much as we do the homosexual and the lesbian. But because this “equal marriage” issue happens to hold the headlines, and it is understandable that many are speaking on an issue which is salient. However because we do fail to speak out on the other sins, does not give the homosexual and lesbian a pass, as you seem to imply.
Don Webb
brentnz says
Jeremy i think we get tripped up on this fixation on sin especially over the homosexual debate its controversial the issue really is about control of our hearts.We cannot serve two masters either it is Jesus Christ or the God of this world.If you resolve that issue then sin isnt the problem.brentnz
Beverly M Wells says
The reason Christians are adamant about the homosexual and lesbian sin, is because it affects our whole society. If you steal, commit adultery, etc. you sin against only yourself and those immediately involved, not a whole society. We are teaching our children that marriage is between one man and one woman. The educational system is teaching our children to accept what is sin. Our society is accepting of this, as well. Of course we focus more on this sin, than any other.
Kay says
Well spoken, and respectfully so. This isn’t about “just” homosexuality. There is a mass global agenda trying to change and re-define Gods original covenant marriage between one man, and one woman. This agenda has become so defiled, they are going so far as omitting parts of the Bible that address it.
Man spends so much time arguing, debating, justifying etc over this subject. Isn’t it really that man takes issue with the authority and veracity of Gods word?
marcel says
homosexuality , transgenders and lesbianism is an abomination against God, this crosses out his creation more like a slap in the face. no there is no big sin or small one all our sinful but God created man and woman to marry i really dont believe that men on men or women on women marriage will be acceptable in the sight of God. yes one can be forgiven for that sin but it will not be accepted into the kingdom. then if it is then God is a Liar and he is not that. if homosexuality is accepted into heaven then no one who commits any other sin should have to ever repent….. and thats not true! aint no homosexuality going on in heaven.
Joe says
Good. We are all in agreement then. Homosexuals will be going to hell akin with all other unrepentant sinners. Glad that has been cleared up.
Jeremy Myers says
What? No. If that’s what you got out of this, you might want to re-read it …
Nicole says
Read John 19:10-11. It clearly shows that there is “greater sin”.
Jeremy Myers says
I have read that passage many times. And studied it. And taught it. But without an actual question or objection from you, I am not sure how it applies to Luke 17:34.
Della Russell says
Everybody that goes in the church building, are not saved, everybody does not have a relationship with Jesus Christ, or have had an experience with the indwelling of his holy spirit. It is true, that there are false prophets, that love money, and that will use, and take God’s, word out of context, they also have their followers , to tell them what they want to hear , this is known as itching ears Church , and use it as if this is their business. And For the Love of Money, is the root of all evil. The natural man cannot receive the things of God, because this is spiritual. It only starts with the mustard seed of faith, Jesus Christ , we want to learn him, seek him and we will find him, this is through the word of God, and prayer. Continue to do this with a sincerity of heart, and Jesus Christ, himself will reveal himself to us. This is Supernatural, and an individual affair, I cannot blame it on the rain, take your eyes off of other people and focus on the truth. We don’t want to be lost, you can say that I’m lying, about everything I’m saying, about Jesus Christ, well if I am, you have nothing to lose, and you can also say, if she is telling the truth, then I have everything to lose. And we do not want to take that chance of losing everything and going into an eternal destruction blazing Hellfire, One Way In, AND NO WAY OUT. I know Jesus is real, I have been filled with his Holy Spirit, which is an experience in him, that is Supernatural, with a great love poured by him into the hearts. Study the book of Acts, King James Version on the Holy Spirit works and acts. He never have ended the works of the Holy Spirit, with the apostles, in the book of Acts, because it’s a continuation it’s still in effect. Don’t you want to find the Jesus Christ of the Bible? So that you can experience, that piece that pass all understanding. I love you.
Don Bantum says
Hey Don,
I have to ask you a question which is, “did Jesus die for sins or not”?
Try if you can, to grasp the fact that God in the person of Jesus Christ died for ALL SIN, ONCE and for ALL. No, he didn’t forget any of them.
God is NO LONGER DEALING WITH THE WORLD ON THE BASIS OF SINS. BUT ON THE BASIS OF GRACE THROUGH CHRIST JESUS FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS!
What makes me as well as God angry about, is so-called Christian people, that act like Jesus death burial and resurrection meant NOTHING!
Man has a much bigger problem than sinning. Man was born DEAD and in need of Spiritual Life. And the only LIFE available to the world is the Life of Jesus Christ. He is and was the only one with a resurrected Life to impart to anybody. Like in Adam, ALL died. We weren’t created alive Spiritually as was Adam, we were all born Spiritually dead because of Adam, decision to reject the truth of God for a lie. God said on the day you eat thereof, you shall surely DIE. Adam didn’t die a physical death that day, he died a Spiritual death. Death is the absence of Life. The Life of God departed from him that day and he DIED a Spiritual Death. When Adam died, he took the whole world down with him. We were all born in Adam Spiritually dead and separated from the Life of God.
Man’s problem isn’t the fact that he sins, that is merely a symptom of the real problem with is Spiritual death. In Adam all died, so in Christ all who come to faith in Jesus Christ will come to Spiritual Life through Faith in Him.
Man seems to be obsessed with sin, and satan wants to keep that obsession going. So we will NEVER come to an understanding of the real problem with mankind. Spiritual Death, being separated from his creator, Jesus Christ the only righteous ONE!
Come to Life through Faith in Jesus Finished work on the cross to take away ALL SINS, his burial, which is the proof of death, and his resurrected Life on the third day. And KNOW that in your heart and man’s problem of death is over! Because the Life that Jesus came to give us, is his resurrected ETERNAL LIFE. We become one with Christ at that point in time and HE places us in His Body, which is the real Church, not some club on the corner of walk and don’t walk. There is but one Church, and the only way to become a member of that Church or his actual Body here on planet earth is through Faith in Jesus.
Flesh gives birth to flesh, and Spirit gives birth to Spirit. The flesh can and will never please God. The ONLY thing that pleases God is Faith in His Son and what it is HE did, not you, or me. What did God say, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, LISTEN TO HIM.” But we refuse to listen to Jesus, we’d much rather listen to man, and join some man made club, and gain acceptance from one another rather than God.
God never told anybody to join a club, or go to some man made church were people sit about pooling their ignorance of God. He told His Church which is His Body, to go to people, not the other way around.
The real problem is man’s obsession with himself, and not God. We are taught in these clubs regardless of the sign over the door, not to believe God, not to trust God, not to put Faith in God. Nice huh? What did Jesus say sin is today, after the cross? “because men do not believe in me.” John 16:9.
When the God who created the universe comes to live in US. We will know longer have to concern ourselves with sin. Because we die, so that Christ may live HIS LIFE in and through us. Trust me when I say, Jesus isn’t sinning. Try to remember if your in Christ, life is about Jesus, not us. Focus on him, and not your flesh, because in your flesh dwells NO good thing, and man will never please God in our flesh. The Christian Life is a Spiritual LIFE, HIS NOT OURS. If we could do any of this, we wouldn’t need Jesus, He could have stayed home and spared myself a lot of pain. So stop trying to find your own righteousness, and start obsessing over what Jesus HAS done, not what you mere men think your doing or not doing. Jesus didn’t die so we could praise ourselves. All this is Christ and NONE of ourselves. Period.
Paul Jay says
So why did Christ even have to go to all that trouble if we would just be forgiven? The Blood atonement freed us from bondage to sin. We are now obligated to also do our part. We have been given a second chance:
Isaiah 59:2 Sin separates from God: Jeremiah 6:8; Ezekiel 14:7; Ezekiel 4:3; Romans 11:17; Romans 11:22; 2 Thessalonians 1:9 etc.
So … faith in Christ … faith in that blood atonement … can only make your spirit come alive if you live according to the will of the Father. If you do this you will. If you live free from purposeful sin.
Matthew 7:21 – Not everyone who says to me “Lord! Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only they who do the will of the Father.
Demons also believe and that doesn’t give them “spiritual life” or “save” them.
There’s a huge difference between knowing and believing.
Believing is a call to action. Just “knowing” doesn’t require you to respond to that knowledge.
Christ never died to approve of sin.
He died that we may become able to conquer sin.
Sin kills. It destroys. Jesus went as far as to say:
“If you look at a woman to desire her … you have already committed adultery in your heart! …Matthew 5:28
If you hate someone Matthew 5:21-22; 1 John 3:15.
It’s all about the heart.
Sin is a result of the condition of the heart.
If the heart is not worthy … the body will be sinning.
The Spirit is an outflow of the condition of the heart.
Do not see God’s grace as a license to sin.
But …. If you continuously overcome sin … and you live as the will of the Father prescribes in His word …. and you sometimes stumble …. then you can be sure your advocate in the heavenly courts … Jesus Christ … will successfully defend you…. because He knows and can prove before the Father that you are indeed carrying your cross …. battling the flesh … and overcoming it!
Amen! Praise Jesus and thank You Holy Spirit for Your omnipotent strength and help!
Susan Guckian says
Amen!
Howard E. Chinn says
I have read some where that Luke 17 refers to the ones taken, were killed by the Roman legions under Titus. They not taken into heaven. After the Great Jewish Revolt of 66-70 A.D. , it was only the righteous who were spared. The est. of Jewish dead 1.2 million.
Hermann Boshoff says
W e can not judge or condemn another, that part is for our ABBA FATHER to decide but let read what Paul says in Romans 1:22-34 (Amp):
“21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],
25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it). [Jer. 2:11.]
26 For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,
27 And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another–men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.
28 And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,
29 Until they were filled (permeated and saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness, iniquity, grasping and covetous greed, and malice. [They were] full of envy and jealousy, murder, strife, deceit and treachery, ill will and cruel ways. [They were] secret backbiters and gossipers,
30 Slanderers, hateful to and hating God, full of insolence, arrogance, [and] boasting; inventors of new forms of evil, disobedient and undutiful to parents.
31 [They were] without understanding, conscienceless and faithless, heartless and loveless [and] merciless.
32 Though they are fully aware of God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them themselves but approve and applaud others who practice them.”
BERTHA WHITE says
Hi, located in the KJV, and the NKJV Foundation Study Bible
in the Gospel of Luke Chapter 17, verses 34-35 it states in red letter
(The Blood) Jesus is speaking that two men and two women.
In the NIV Study Bible in the same chapter, same verses it says there will be two people in one bed, but it says in verse 35 two women. Perhaps one repented if this was a homosexual activity.
People need to specify that God loves people (everyone) but hates sin. Remember Jesus is Magnificent and Holy does not and cannot, will not justify sin as good. God is Merciful a Forgiving God.
Anyone who commits sin there will be Consequence,
sarah angel says
Well ive just woken up this morning and read luke 17 and the first thing that caught my eye was Jesus response to the pharasees where He tells them the kingdom of heaven is within you. Then when i read the 2 men 2 women 2 men. It really stands out that all 3 are same sex doing same thing, my thoughts are this, anyone who it truely born again is two people, theres a spiritual man/woman living inside the physical man/woman and in that day the spiritual man/woman will be taken and the physical man/woman left behind. John 3 5-7 john 11 25 corinthians 15 44 john 12 24. Please dont tell me that Jesus taught things that are completely contrary to His own word in regards to both gay relations and also your interpretation of references from greek mythology being spoken of by Jesus when such a thing would contradict Him as not being the author of confusion 1 corinth 14 33. Jesus wants people set free from the structures of false religion He s not going to use those very false structures to try to strenghten His case, that just makes the whole thing a contridiction and a falsehood in itself. 1 timothy 2 3-6.
God bless
Terra says
Wow! If I wasnt saved already..I would have gave my life to Christ after reading this..seriously the spirit in me was jumping.
I don't wanna put it:') says
“Give your life” to Christ?🤔
M says
The Greek word for the supposed ‘bed’ that the ‘men’ lay in (the Greek doesn’t mention the gender but whatever), is actually the word klinēs, which means couch, like the ones people typically recline on. Like when Jesus and his disciples sit together at meals they are more than likely sitting on couches like that. Far from having any sexual encounters!
Chuck McKnight says
Very interesting. But you know, I think the Message translation really clears all this up for us.
“On that Day, two men will be in the same boat fishing—one taken, the other left. Two women will be working in the same kitchen—one taken, the other left.”
Jeremy Myers says
Wow. I would love to know how Eugene H. Peterson got “boat” from the Greek word kline.
Chuck McKnight says
Right?
Chuck McKnight says
I have to assume that he deliberately chose a different venue to prevent any awkward conclusions…
Chuck McKnight says
Seriously, that’s a fascinating perspective. I’ve not heard that take before.
Mary Gibson says
I looked in the Greek and it doesn’t use men or women in those verses, maybe implied? I dunno, it still seems far fetched to me. Seems like proof texting to affirm his belief. Just like so many other doctrines that people have attached themselves to. They lift certain texts to strengthen a belief. I think we need to look at everything in context as a whole not just Luke 37. To me, two people grinding in a mill are probably two people grinding in a mill, you know, working in a kitchen. I don’t think we really need to read too much into that one.
Jeremy Myers says
Yes, I tried to address that in the longer post, as that was my first objection also.
But as I pointed out, the words “one … other” are both masculine in Luke 17:34 and feminine in Luke 17:35.
While masculine pronouns/numbers can refer to either men and women, feminine pronouns cannot, and the close parallel between two masculine words and then two feminine words indicate that two men are referred to in 17:34 while two women are referred to in 17:35.
Mary Gibson says
2087 héteros – another (of a different kind). 2087 /héteros (“another but distinct in kind”) stands in contrast to 243 /állos (“another of the same kind”). 2087 /héteros (“another of a different quality”) emphasizes it is qualitatively different from its counterpart (comparison).
[2087 (héteros) sometimes refers to “another” of a different class group or type (as in Plato; Oxy. papyri).]
So the word ‘other’ in v.34 I believe is meaning another of different kind, maybe meaning different kind of gender?
Jeremy Myers says
Hmm. Interesting point which I did not consider.
But heteros (hetera) is also used in Luke 17:35. How would you understand it in context there?
Mary Gibson says
i will need to look up
Mary Gibson says
I would have to add that usually when there is more than one person or different genders the plural is usually used in the masculine form. So if there is a man AND a woman the plural of heteros is going to be the masculine form. Same with the Spanish language, French, English, etc.
Jesse Steele says
Are you sure that you’re arguing that, on the basis that V. 34 is masculine and V. 35 is feminine (plus a little vanilla and salt), both Vv. 34, 35 are referring to women, not men in V. 34 and women in V.35?
I won’t rebut the guy you quoted because I just don’t find him interesting in reading enough to rebut. So, I won’t rebut him. But thanks for quoting him. That seems to be a concise summary of those arguments. Concise is good. I feel informed.
Daniel Hallford says
Yes, the english form of the modern greek word, is duo. Not two men, but a word meaning a duality. I.e. more than one; no gender. (Just writing out loud; no particular point).
Paul Walker says
N.T. Wright’s translation in his Kingdom New Testament,
“Let me tell you, in that night there will be two people sleeping side by side: one will be taken, and the other left behind. There will be two women working side by side grinding corn: one will be taken, and the other left behind.” – Luke 17:34-35
Jeremy Myers says
Yes, N. T. Wright has given a legitimate translation, but maybe not the best translation.
Since “one … other” are both feminine in Luke 17:35 (which he indicates by adding the word “women”) and the parallel “one … other” in Luke 17:34 are both masculine, the burden of proof seems to lie on the one who wants to understand the words in Luke 17:34 as generic “people” when the parallel with 17:35 seems to strongly indicate that the two in one bed are “men.”
Mary says
Did it ever occur to your filthy minds that the two men in one bed could be brothers or father and son? People who have a filthy mind would have overlooked this possibility because their mind is full of evil thoughts continually
Jeremy Myers says
Did it ever occur to your judgmental mind to (1) give others the benefit of the doubt when you don’t know them, and (2) to read the entire article before lashing out with a hateful comment?
Yes, your proposal did occur to me when I read this article (note that it isn’t MY article at all … I didn’t write it), but the surrounding context of Luke 17:34 hints at something else going on. The article explains what this “something else” might be.
Paul Walker says
I think your argument incorrectly draws a similarity between English and Greek grammatical construction. There are some important differences.
For example, in English only third person singular pronouns (he, she, it) and certain other nouns referring to persons (man, woman, actor, actress) have gender. Most English nouns are regarded as neuter or simply lacking in gender.
In contrast, ALL Greek nouns have gender. Most Greek nouns referring to persons have the grammatical gender that corresponds to their sex. The Greek words for “woman”, “sister” are feminine; those for “man”, “brother” are masculine. BUT abstract nouns and those referring to inanimate objects also have grammatical gender in Greek. Thus, the Greek word for “land” is feminine, but the Greek word for “world” is masculine. Nothing regarding the meanings of these words is conveyed by their genders. The gender of such nouns can seldom be predicted and must be learned by observation. It might be more helpful to remember that use of Greek gender tense is a grammatical one, and not a biological one.
jay says
YES. This is the same concept for Spanish as well.
Paul Walker says
On the other hand, IF your translation was correct (of which I have my doubts) I would still have grounds to reject your conclusions on the basis of pederasty, cult prostitution, and slave sexual exploitation, which were quite common in the Ancient world. The “one taken” could easily refer to those individuals who did not have a choice to engage in same sex activities.
Marcelo says
Great point Paul. This could refer to sexual exploitation, a subject that many scholars point out was in Paul’s mind when he wrote against same-sex relationships.
Jeremy Myers says
Paul, I agree with your points, and similar points were made in the longer article, but I think these points support the idea of two men in one bed rather than undermine it.
Remember also, of course, that my post is nothing but a summary of a much longer and more detailed series of posts by Ronald Goetz. I am not sure I agree with him, but am only putting his ideas out there for feedback.
Wesley Rostoll says
Very interesting perspective. For the record, here in Africa it is fairly common for 2, 3 or 4 family members to share a bed, especially in lower income areas.
Deborah Thieme says
Consider the cultural context. My father, age 89, tells of coming to the city to work as a young man. He stayed in a boarding house where it was normal for two men to be rented a room together and sleep in the same bed!
Jeremy Myers says
Very true. I think the longer post addresses this objection also.
The wider context of Luke 17:34-35 uses the imagery of an eagle and lightning which were prominent and well-known images in that culture for a male-male sexual relationship between Zeus and Ganymede.
And then there is the “grinding” of the women in Luke 17:35, which is also euphemistic.
Marcelo says
Could it be that Jesus is cross-referencing actual Scriptural use of eagles and lightning?
Eagles/Vultures:
Proverbs 30:17, Hosea 8:1, but especially Isaiah 34:15 in the immediate context about judgement
Lightning:
Exodus 20, Psalms 97, 144, Ezekiel 1, Daniel 10
Mary Gibson says
2087 héteros – another (of a different kind). 2087 /héteros (“another but distinct in kind”) stands in contrast to 243 /állos (“another of the same kind”). 2087 /héteros (“another of a different quality”) emphasizes it is qualitatively different from its counterpart (comparison).
[2087 (héteros) sometimes refers to “another” of a different class group or type (as in Plato; Oxy. papyri).]
So the word ‘other’ in v.34 I believe is meaning another of different kind, maybe meaning different kind of gender?
Sam Riviera says
In many times and places, including in the USA in earlier days, travelers often shared beds when there were more travelers than beds. Men shared beds with men and women with women. It was that or the floor.
When I was growing up our extended families would occasionally come in from far and wide to attend major family events. Our little town didn’t have any motels and there weren’t enough beds in family homes for everyone to get their own bed, so every bed was filled with adults, men with men and women with women. The kids slept on the floor. No one thought this was strange in any way.
Jon V says
While it is convenient to only look at Luke’s version it does seem odd to overlook the fact that Matthew’s version actually has the word mill in the text.
Nate Tinner says
Odd, indeed. Quite possibly the most far-fetched interpretation of Scripture I have ever seen.
Keith Giles says
Two things:
One – In Matthew’s version of this same passage, Jesus does use the word for “the mill” in Greek – [μύλων mylōn]
Two – Peterson’s translation of “corn” is ridiculous since it wasn’t discovered until the New World was found. “Grain” maybe, or “Meal”, but not “corn”.
Daniel says
Great Post Jeremy!! wow i would have never ever thought to look at it this way before im gonna share this with some people i know why hate and cant stand gays to try to open there eyes a bit they may not even read it but got to try. 🙂 got to get the word out thank you for this amazing post my friend.
Keith Giles says
The parallel passage in Matthew does say “mill”, however.
Jeremy Myers says
Yes. The longer series of articles by Ron Goetz addresses this point.
He also shows that “grinding the mill” is a sexual euphemism.
Keith Giles says
My question is “How do we know when to take things euphemistically and when to take them literally” OR “Sometimes a banana is just a banana”.
Jeremy Myers says
Yep. True point. His answer is that the context reveals how to understand the terms. In this case, we have the images of the eagle and the lightning, which were common symbols of Zeus and Ganymede, a well-known homosexual relationship in Greco-Roman mythology.
Keith Giles says
Hmmm…….
Keith Giles says
“Where the Eagles gather” reference is, I believe a reference to the Roman Army since the Eagle was on their banner and flag which preceded them in war and was emblazoned upon the Roman Army shields, etc.
Shawn Lazar says
Are you directly quoting Ron Goetz after “The Context of Sodom”?
Jeremy Myers says
It’s an edited direct quote, but yes, that is where the summary of his posts begin.
Shawn Lazar says
Also, Mid-Acts folk say the Rapture was a revelation to Paul that is not found in the Gospels, and that the “taking away” here refers to death during the Tribulation. For example:
“Many expositors teach that those who are taken are the saints who are raptured at the coming of Christ. It is evident that the ones taken in Noah’s day were taken in the flood and Noah was left. The same was true in Lot’s case. He was left and the others were taken away. But here the disciple asked, “Where, Lord?” and He answered: “Where the body is, thither will the eagles also be gathered together.” Where are they taken? Surely not to heaven, but to judgment, the same one mentioned in Rev 19:17-18, which is called the “supper of the great God,” when the eagles consume the bodies of the ungodly.” Charles F. Baker, Understanding the Gospels, 189. And that doesn’t mean the ones who are left are necessarily saved (Noah’s sons seem not to have been). Unbelievers who survive get judged at the end of the Tribulation.
I don’t know. Just throwing it out there.
Jeremy Myers says
Yes, for me, this is the real question. Are those “taken” taken away in the rapture or taken away in judgment?
Of course, either way, you have one left in each case also.
Gary DeMar says
Of course, the passage is not about a rapture. The one taken is most likely someone taken by the Romans during the siege.
Douglas Panneton says
Thats right Gary, in the context of the story, the one’s taken, are taken in judgment. You don’t want to be the one’s taken !
Gary DeMar says
The Romans didn’t take only the really bad people. There must have been any number of bad sinners left behind as well as some relatively good people taken. Maybe the homosexual taken was to the liking of a Roman soldier.
Keith Giles says
To me, the “one will be taken and the other left behind” is a reference to how the Christians would be spared the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Church History records that many had visions and dreams warning them of the coming destruction of Jerusalem and they fled the city and avoided the siege.
Hanson J. Donovan says
Seems highly likely, Gary DeMar, and 2000 years later that shoe still fits Rome. A hotbed of homosexuality and paedophilia.
Lutek K. says
Well, if nothing else, paper theology keeps people busy by producing some never ending arguments.
I think we should put this whole non-issue to bed, and get back to doing God’s work.
Rene says
Like.
Sam Riviera says
Yes, if we’re really worried about “those gays”, maybe we should start volunteering some time to deliver meals to AIDS patients, work in a shelter for LGBT youth or that sort of thing and show “those people” a healthy dose of the love of Jesus coming their way.
Matthew Richardson says
There is no mention of any relationship between the two ‘men’ other than one of proximity. In many poorer countries it is not surprising to finda whole family sharing a bed. I think the whole point of this passage is to say that people will disappear suddenly. Sounds like the ‘Rapture’ to me. BTW, where do we get the word ‘Rapture’ ? Is it in scripture ?
Ben says
A few point:
1) Shawn Lazar is right on point. This is a reference to anyone being taken in a rapture. If we read the parallel in Matthew it is clear that those taken are killed, and there it is not necessary to assume that those who are left are necessarily saved. Jesus is speaking of his second coming, and I believe that there will still be unsaved folks on the earth during the millennium reign of Christ. So even IF we agreed that this passage referenced homosexuals, it fails to prove that God approves of homosexual behavior. At best it merely proves that homosexuals will exist when Christ returns. I think that alone destroys the whole pro-gay argument that he is attempting to make.
2) I was listening to Greg Boyd teach via podcast the other day, and he was speaking on the use of gender language in the first century. He pointed out that the culture being chauvinistic would never use a feminine term to reference a man but would frequently use masculine terms to reference women if they were in a mixed group with men. specifically Greg said that if a single male was in a crowd of females it was more acceptable to greet the whole group as men, or brothers and thus risk elevating the women, than to greet them all as women or sisters and thus risk insulting the one man in the group. If Greg is correct, then the cultural norm of the time would dictate that if a man and a woman are both in one bed it would be most appropriate to use masculine pronouns to speak of them. So I think that it is reasonable to assume that the two in the bed are as likely to be a man and a woman as they are to be two men.
3) Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, not a Greek philosopher. I see absolutely no justification for attempting to interpret Christ’s words with an allusion to Greek myths. What would Jesus’ Jewish audience have thought if this Jewish rabbi started teaching them about Greek gods, and alluding to Zeus? I’m not buying that for a minute, the only God that Jesus ever alluded to was his Father.
4) it’s really sloppy hermeneutics to say “oh look there’s the word lightning in the text, and there is the word eagle, Jesus must be alluding to some unknown (to his Jewish audience) Greek myth that speak of lightning bolts and eagles” The text won’t allow us to go that way. The meaning of the lightning and the eagles are made clear in the context:
4A) “People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.” (Luke 17:23,24).
The context gives meaning to the lightning reference. Jesus is saying that when he returns it won’t be done in secret, so don’t go running after every rumor that he has returned. No, Jesus says that his return will be a visible and as public as a bolt of lightning which lights up the sky, everyone everywhere will be aware that he has arrived, it won’t be done in secret.
4B) “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:37)
First notice the NIV translates the word as vultures not eagles. my understanding is that the Greek work can be used to reference either, but the context lends itself to vultures sense vultures are scavengers and the birds Jesus has in mind are eating corpses. It’s hard for me to imagine what an image of vultures eating dead bodies could possibly have in common with a Myth about Zeus having sex with a man. The context refuses to allow such an interpretation.
Ben says
A correction to my first line. I meant to say “This is NOT a reference to anyone being taken in a rapture”
After rereading my post I see some other typos as well, but I trust you get my point : )
Jeremy Myers says
Ben,
Aside from your first objection, all the others are fairly adequately answered in the longer series of posts, so I won’t try to restate what was already said in the articles.
As for your first objection, whether it is the rapture or not makes no difference. If it IS the rapture, then one is taken in the rapture. If it is NOT the rapture, but refers to judgment, then one is left (spared, delivered, saved) from being taken in judgment.
tovlogos says
There is no indication that Luke is referring to two men in 34,35. This article follows suit with the prevailing depravity of the end times. It appears people will do, or say just about anything to somehow make homosexuality acceptable. I’ve heard it all. Are you suggesting that Jesus was referring to two women doing what they do for sexual pleasure?
“Thou shalt not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination” (Leviticus 18:22).
“If a man lie with a man, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” (Leviticus 20:13).”
“By clearly alluding to the Levitical prohibitions against male homosexuality, followed immediately with his declaration that “one shall be taken, and the other left,” Jesus declared his own acceptance of gays and lesbians, and that gays and lesbians are not automatically rejected by God.” This doesn’t even begin to qualify as biblical exegesis. This the epitome of eisegesis, the sort that leads to the creation of cults. To read homosexuality into this in the face of 1 Corinthians 6, in which the only solution in verse 11, — someone has to be kidding.
Moreover, I disagree with you, Jeremy, about Genesis 19, and whether homosexuality was implicated in the sin of Sodom. In Ezekiel 16, God is rebuking Israel, and compares it with Sodom, which became a synonym for sinful abominations. 50 – “Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.”
We know, without doubt, that there was all manner of sin in Sodom.
What is impossible to miss is the fact that only homosexuality was highlighted in that Genesis 19 journal — the height of sin.
It is impossible to analyze a piece of Scripture without considering the “whole” context of Scripture, for example, Acts 17:11; 2 Peter 1:20. Yet people are determined to take verses out of biblical context and make it a free-for-all.
Many sins would be legal acts if engaged within God’s allowable parameters. There is no such allowance for homosexuality. More and more I see a Matthew Vine approach to analyzing Scripture, which can be exegetically dismantled with ease. Yet people who insist on finding a way to embrace this sin and will say just about anything — even calling homosexuality, “racism.” People who are cheering them on bear some of the responsibility; Many worldly people support it to be chic. No one who actually conforms to the image of Jesus Christ can contemplate embracing sin. Cheering them on is not helping them. God’s work is to save sinners. Remember, “let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and cover a multitude of sins.” James 5:20.
The worse part of it is, if we stand on the veracity of Scripture; we must not have love, which makes no sense.
Jeremy Myers says
There is quite good indication that two men are being referred to in Luke 17:34. Did you read the post?
tovlogos says
I disagree. If two men are in a bed, it would not mean how today’s perspective is likely to view it. Using the masculine terms is generic. No clear mention of two males in bed is indicated. If two homosexuals were in a bed, one wouldn’t be taken, and the other left, based on the biblical categorizing of homosexuality. By today’s desperate need to somehow justify homosexuality, people begin to lean toward seeing things that are not there.
Did you read my post?
Jeremy Myers says
I agree that the two masculine terms could be taken as generic. And without any other context, that would be the best understanding.
But Jesus immediately follows the two masculine terms with two feminine ones (which cannot be generic). Jesus was using clear parallelism to make a point about the two masculine terms.
The burden of proof lies on the one who wants to take the two masculine terms generically, and so far, you have offered no proof other than your desire to not understand them as referring to two men.
tovlogos says
However, to suggest that those passages suggest homosexual relationships, is the face of numerous biblical contexts denouncing homosexuality, is impossible to deduce exegetically. The Bible itself is my proof — obviously I don’t have to list all of the passages that are unmistakable in God’s attitude toward sin.
I pointed to Ezekiel and Genesis 19, and concluded that there was all manner of sin in Sodom; and gave you a reason for seeing homosexuality as the culmination of sin. And on both wings of the Scriptures, homosexuality is utterly denounced, for example, in contrast to the dietary laws. 1 Corinthians 6:10 is the final blow to “practicing sin.” 1 John 8:3:8-10, is “specifically” the reason that sin condemns a person. Homosexuality is particularly egregious to God because it, calls good evil, and evil good — it demands the right to be embraced.
For you to separate Luke 17:34 and suggest it indicates homosexuality, is to make this passage your private interpretation, which the Spirit tells us not to do (1 Peter 1:20). Scripture must be compared with Scripture to get the full picture; it doesn’t need human finite input.
The context of Luke 17 is a completely different context.
(32) Remember Lot’s wife.
After 34 -35 we have, (36) Two men in a field; one will be taken and the other will be left. Are they also homosexuals? That’s exactly the same context as 34 and 35.
One is saved, and one is not saved. Salvation is the issue; and being ready. If they were homosexuals, “sexually grinding,” neither is saved, which stands up to the exegetical report of Scripture.
Jeremy Myers says
GoodWord,
Didn’t you already raise this point? Maybe it was someone else…
Anyway, of course this interpretation contradicts certain understandings of various other texts. That’s true with every understanding of Scripture.
But the proper way to perform exegesis is to (1) study a passage fully in its own contexts, (2) then go study parallel passages in their own contexts, and (3) only then compare the two passages for help in understanding each other. This is how to compare Scripture with Scripture.
If you get this order messed up, you often end up missing what the Spirit of God is saying in a text.
What you are doing above has been labeled “shotgun hermeneutics” and is an illegitimate exegetical approach.
Lee says
Romans 1. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise, also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. All gay and Lesbians will not inherit the kingdom of God
Corinthians 6, 9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. of our God.
tovlogos says
BTW, one of the first rules in interpretation is looking at the immediate context; and going from that point. Context is absolutely necessary. The context of Luke 17: 34 has no intention to highlight individuals, other than to say, Be Ready — like the wise and foolish virgins (Matthew 25, 26). The context has to do with the second Coming of Christ. To highlight homosexuality in this particular context is a is seriously misguided, like an undisciplined mind.
Ben says
I agree with you tovlogos. The pro-homo interpretation is impossible to get if the context and main point of this discourse is taken seriously. Frankly I can’t see how any thinking person could take that interpretation seriously. It’s just not there.
tovlogos says
Amen Ben — How much can one spin the Scriptures — until it is telling a completely different story? But that’s what spiritual myopia is about. The Nicodemus story is a classic example. That is also precisely how cults, and all of these religions have proliferated the planet — personal agenda.
Mark
Jeremy Myers says
Tovlogos,
Did you read the original posts? The references to homosexuality are everywhere in the passage. I always look deeply into the contexts (historical, cultural, grammatical, critical, etc) of every passage I study, and the context of Luke 17 is pretty clearly pointing in a homosexual direction.
It Luke 17 about the Second Coming of Christ? Where do you get that from? There is no statement in the immediate context about a second coming of Jesus. To get there, you have to do some interpretive gymnastics with “the days of the Son of Man.” Context, my friend. Context.
tovlogos says
You and I disagree, Jeremy. The context: Luke 17:22-37; take a good look at verses 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, and in verse 34, in the Greek, it doesn’t say “two men”, it simply says “two”.
Luke 17:34 — “I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken, and the other will be left. The theme continues through verses 35 and 36.
In Matthew 24:37-41, notwithstanding context, I see a similarity.
“40 Then there shall be two men (likewise there is no mention if the word, “men” in the greek) out in the field; the one will be taken away, and the one is left, et cetera.
John MacArthur believes, in his commentary referring to this passage, based on the Noah analogy in verses 38, 39, that the ones taken will be “taken in judgment”; however, the Greek says the opposite based on just two words —
“Paralambano referring to those taken to salvation and, “aphiemi”, the one left behind to judgment. So, the theme is, without doubt, speaking about the second coming, and those going one way and those going the other way.
This entire passage in Luke 17 is not for the purpose of spotlighting any particular sin — sin is sin — they will all lead to the same place.
No gymnastics, just reading what it says — “God’s ONLY directive to us is, in the words of Yeshua, to “Love one another as I have loved you.”
This statement, and you actually emphasize, “only” is beyond me to comprehend how you make such a statement.
Yes, 1 Corinthians 13 is clear, but we have a few more directives based on the 1 Corinthians-directive; for example, Matthew 16:24-26; Matthew 28:19 where there is one imperative in the Greek — “Make Disciples”; and of course, Matthew 22:37-40.
Moreover, let’s take a very good look at 1 John 3:8-9, to avoid looking at the scripture naively — the grammar indicates that one who “continually” sins — the present tense denotes continuity, which is when one is sabotaging his own life. And if you have the opportunity yet patronize him in his sin as “Just fine, brother” you are doing him no favors, (cf. Ezekiel 33:6,9). If you don’t have the opportunity, don’t do it. Obviously, we disagree, and that’s ok.
Jeremy Myers says
I am really not sure what you are arguing here. You start by stating we disagree, then go on to agree with me in many ways, and then also make arguments against things that I never said.
And besides … this article is not mine anyway… It’s a post written by somebody else, and I published it here for people to consider and think through. Thanks for doing that!
Lutek K says
There is a HUGE difference between the work that God does and the work that God desires and requires of us. Judgment and retribution are certainly not God’s directives to us. Discernment, yes, but not judgment, and certainly not condemnation. God’s ONLY directive to us is, in the words of Yeshua, to “Love one another as I have loved you.” That is the whole of the law and the prophets.
It is God’s work to save sinners, not ours. Ours is to love even those we sinfully judge to be sinners.
Lutek K says
Tovlogos,
You’ve replied in part to my post (Lutek) thinking it was Jeremy’s. I haven’t been active in the forums for a while, but since i’ve been getting notifications of new comments on this thread, i felt i should jump back in. To add to the confusion, there’s no ‘reply’ button beneath your latest post, so i’m replying to my own comment instead of yours.
This situation is an example of the perils of over-focusing, or under-sensing, or over-generalizing – i’m not sure there’s a word for what i’m trying to say. Anyway, it’s nothing personal. We’re all guilty of it now and then, on occasion. Just like sin in general. Some more, some less. Some in certain situations, others in others. “Judge not, lest ye yourselves be judged.” No matter what Sts. Paul or Luke may or may not have said. Should not the least words of the master be worth more than those of even his greatest disciples?
Before i go on, let me make clear that i don’t like the word “sinner” being used so much, at least not in public. It is a judgmental word and as such should not be applied to anyone other than oneself. However, i’ll reply using the same terms.
God’s work is to save sinners, through the grace of OUR love, because where else is a sinner going to receive the grace of God’s love but through us? And it certainly won’t be by trying to reason or force him or her into it. We have to just give it out. Non-stop. Without judging.
God’s work is to save sinners. Our work is to allow God to use our own love, compassion and empathy do so, without our falling into the trap of devaluing anyone.
Finally, sin is wilfully choosing that which we know to be wrong. Homosexuality has many causes and influences. Neither homosexuality nor heterosexuality is necessarily a choice, and neither has necessarily anything to do with love. Neither even has necessarily to do with sexual activity. If there is any judgment to be made – which in my opinion there is not – then it must be on an individual basis. But before you judge a man, first walk a mile in his moccasins.
You are absolutely right that it makes no sense to say that if we stand on the veracity of scripture we must not have love. Scriptures all around the world describe the growing and maturing of love. Though it seems to be painfully slow at times, there is nothing truer than the growing and maturing of love.
But veracity is not the same as literality. If we stand on the literality of the Bible, the Q’uran, the Baghavad Gita or any other scripture we are gravely mistaken and preclude ourselves from a full understanding of the vital message. Also, if we immerse ourselves in scripture, how can we fully immerse ourselves in love?
Jeremy Myers says
Thanks for the excellent response!
tovlogos says
Okay, there’s some sort of mix-up — we’re all is well gentlemen, no harm no foul. Obviously I responded to “someone” because it came to my email address — I remember being on this site for a brief period of time and I haven’t posted anything here for a very long time — let’s forget it, move on and take care.
Cathy says
Talk about projecting the west’s values onto a 2000-year-ago ME culture.
In some places, men and women aren’t allowed to ever touch in public. Should they reconstruct the bible too to support their cultural norms?
Jeremy Myers says
We are not trying to reconstruct the Bible, but are trying to understand it in its historical, cultural context.
Did you know that homosexuality was possibly more widespread and practiced in the days of Jesus than it is today? It would make sense for Jesus to address it.
Fred says
Jesus was not talking about homosexuality in Luke 17:34 two men the word men is in italic meaning added by the writers, and has 1 next to it go in the column and it is the word people.
Two people ….
Jesus would never condone homosexuality, read romans ch 1
Jim Sterling says
These are questions I have to ask myself when confronted by the various possibilities addressed here: When and who am I to love? Do I feel loved by those who don’t accept me? What’s required before God will love someone? I have others but I’ll close with; is love with attachments love at all?
Justin Steckbauer says
I’m having a hard time understanding your conclusion. Are you saying only the red letter words of Jesus are inspired scripture? If the entire Bible is the word of God, which it most certainly is, then we can simply look to other scriptures, like Paul in Romans (1:26-28) to understand that homosexuality is a sin and and ought to be repented of, turned from, along with other sins when turning to Jesus Christ for salvation. Seems to me your trying to find a route to accept homosexuality through isolating a single scripture in Luke.
Jeremy Myers says
First, it is not my conclusion. I am summarizing some posts I found elsewhere on the internet, and inviting conversation on the topic. Having said that, HIS conclusion seems to be that Jesus is saying that homosexuality has no bearing on one’s future eternal state.
Second, a study of Romans 1 would require a completely separate LONG post. I have studied it in depth and at length. No single blog post can ever say everything about a topic. If I had included a study of Romans 1 in this post, it would be 5000 words longer, and then the objection would be “Well, how come you didn’t include 1 Cor 6:9-10, or the Leviticus commands?”
Tara says
Jeremy, fascinating post! It is always interesting to see what the words translate to in the Greek language. So often it is not at all how we would read it in the English. Great post!
Piotr says
“Scripture’s male-female prerequisite for marriage and its attendant rejection of homosexual behavior is pervasive throughout both Testaments of Scripture (i.e. it is everywhere presumed in sexual discussions even when not explicitly mentioned); it is absolute (i.e. no exceptions are ever given, unlike even incest and polyamory); it is strongly proscribed (i.e. every mention of it in Scripture indicates that it is regarded as a foundational violation of sexual ethics); and it is countercultural (i.e. we know of no other culture in the ancient Near East or Greco-Roman Mediterranean basin more consistently and strongly opposed to homosexual practice). If this doesn’t qualify as a core value in Scripture’s sexual ethics, there is no such thing as a core value in any religious or philosophical tradition”.
Whole: http://www.robgagnon.net/NewsweekMillerHomosexResp.htm
Liz says
Very interesting post Jeremy. The more I look into what scripture does and does not say the more convinced I am that scripture does not “clearly” condemn or support same sex relationships. However I had never spent any time on this particular passage so I
BTW I was very impressed at your patience as you had to repeat several times that this wasn’t necessarily your opinion but one understanding put forth by someone else. It always amazes me how people can completely disregard a blatant statement. LOL
Tim says
I can’t see Ronald Goetz as an orthodox teacher on any topic. His idea of a ‘suffering God’ really qualifies him as a heretic, so his views on gay marriage or gay lifestyle are, to me, irrelevant. He threw out what the bible said about God, and what God said in the bible on homosexuality, so why discuss the rankings of a false teacher?
Jeremy Myers says
I have not read anything else by Ronald Goetz, but as for a suffering God, I believe that God suffers. Look at Jesus Christ after all. He was fully God and He suffered greatly for all mankind.
Ward Kelly says
Several thoughts:
I find the introduction of discussions focused on apologizing for the homosexuality lifestyle a bit disturbing.
I find the hard line attacks on the sin of homosexuality with exclusion to other sins disturbing.
I have never heard an acceptable explaination of someone living in sin. What is living in sin? How many times does one have to commit a sin to be living in sin? If someone is attracted to the same sex yet does not commit the physical act are they living in sin? If the do commit the act and then repent are they accepted by God? If the commit the act say seventy times seven times and repent are they accepted? If they repented for every one of those seventy times seven times did they repent at all? What constitutes a lifestyle of sin that warrants condemnation? How many times are our acts of repentance accepted before they are rejected by God? Did the repent at all?
Now sustitute gossiping, stealing, adultery, or any other sin for homosexuality above…does that change anything? Can someone who has repeatedly gossiped and asked for forgiveness make it to heaven?
It seems to me that the pharisees who tried to trick Jesus with their questions would be well pleased by these examinations of the scriptures. Maybe we could better spend our time reaching out to the lost than using arcane arguments to sympathize or condemn homosexuality.
Gary Looper says
We do need to let God’s word dwell among us richly, talking respectfully and truthfully about things that matter as we continue Christ’s work. But I fail to see how a single verse like Luke 17:34 (which in context has little or no bearing on homosexual marriage/behavior), or even several bare verses from various places in Scripture that are often quoted on this issue, make for worthwhile conversation. It’s micromanagement and proof-texting of the worst kind, engendering a lot of speculation and disputation that is unprofitable, given the mission we have to love God and others as ourselves.
Please, let’s focus on the essentials of our faith and approach the Bible as a whole, unified work of the Spirit. I know it’s not easy to do this, but we must try and resist the temptation to pit one verse against others. I exhort us all to stay on course and avoid these distractions and sidetracks in the future.
Christiane Winspeare says
Thank you Gary I agree with you totally.
Kmean says
Let me clear this up:
This first one is just meant as “two” in bed, referring to a married man and woman, also night time.
The second is “two women working”, grinding doesn’t mean sex just occasionally and those verses you cite I say only the first one might be sex the rest are very much in doubt. Grinding grain done in the morning usually.
The third is “two men working”, working in a field, pretty cut and dry done in the afternoon usually.
So he covers a married man and woman, two women and two men working, also covers night, morning, and afternoon. Showing it takes place at once across a round earth.
He is not endorsing Sodomy, and it is clearly a sin and an abomination listed in both the old and new testament (Romans 1) to be specific.
Jeremy Myers says
Cultural context and the Greek words in the text indicate that there might be something more going on here. The full article explains more.
Piotr says
“Cultural context and the Greek words” and it is here what is going on. Author just tries to make one picture from two different boxes of puzzles.
Jewish ‘cultural context” is as I cited above, totally against any homosexual activity.
Greek culture and words could be friendly, so mixing them both is just plainly wrong methodology.
One can receive any results he wishes or rather something very strange and crooked.
Robby says
I think the only good point made here by Ron Goetz (and it is a very important lesson) is that if you are uninterested in letting the scriptures speak for themselves unto truth, and if you purpose to twist the scriptures to a predetermined end then you absolutely CAN find and justify ANYTHING. (edited)
David says
It’s impossible to take you or your scriptural abuse seriously when you interpret the following passages sexually:
Judges 16:21–“But the Philistines took him, and put out his eyes, and brought him down to Gaza, and bound him with fetters of brass; and he did grind in the prison house.”
Lamentations 5:13–“They took the young men to grind, and the children fell under the wood.”
These are obviously instances of prisoners being put to hard labor. There is no sexual context to these verses. Your readiness to find a sexual context where none is warranted strongly suggests an agenda on your part, however.
Jeremy Myers says
David,
1. This is not my article, but a repost from some articles I found online. I am posting them here for people to weigh in on. (Which you have done… thanks.)
2. Good points on those two texts. I agree with you. The other two listed in the same context, however, are clearly sexual references (Job 31:10; Isaiah 47:2-3)
Lester Chua says
Job 31:10 really refers to “grinding” a modern English euphemism for sex, being paraded as a ancient HEBREW euphemism, or taking care of the household mill?
Isaiah 47:2 “Take a millstone and grind meal”, is also sex? Or as Matthew Henry and other theologians comment. Referring to hard labour?
Anyone playing with words, dismantling the bible for their own personal agenda is treading a dangerous path with the Word of God.
Jeremy Myers says
Did you read those texts in context? They are clearly sexual references as the surrounding verses indicate.
Is it wrong for God to talk about sex in the Bible?
If you think so, you might want to read Song of Solomon again. Or check out this post about the Song of Deborah.
Oh, and whatever you do, don’t listen to my One Verse Podcast episode that is getting published a week from today…
Jason says
It is clear to me because of the reference to sodom the the one taken is forcing homosexual sex on the other. The one left is an innocent that was being forced. In the beginning of Luke 17 Jesus states that it would be better to have a millstone tied around his neck and cast into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to sin. And he states that that night there would be 2 men in 1 bed, 2 women grinding together, and 2 men in the field. Key word night. No working in the field or mill at night. Definitely talking about sex. Sodoms story described the men telling lot to give them the men so they could rape them. So the reference is gay rape. When they asked Jesus where they would be taken he said where the carcass is the Eagles or(vultures ) will gather. They will be thrown in the lake of fire.
Jim says
Leviticus 20-13, read for the truth.
Jim says
Leviticus 20:13
Ronald Goetz says
Jim, let me cite the verse for you.
“‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
If Leviticus 20:13 is the “truth,” then you are obligated to execute the homosexuals you know.
That would seem absurd, but there are Christians who are willing to do that, or at least legislate it. And that’s only absurd in North America. Fundamentalist Christians in some foreign countries preach and promote that very thing, unabashedly and unashamed.
God forgive you.
Christian Chat says
When I am in doubt and need more understanding, I look to Aramaic and Hebrew translations.
First, let me say that my intuition and personal, unique perspective tells me that He was talking about women in both 34 and 35.
Now, here is the Aramaic translation…
“I say to you, in that night, two shall be in one bed; one shall be taken -captive- and the other shall be left.”
I don’t know about you, but being taking captive does not sound all that pleasing to me, and nor does being left. It does not at all sound like He was speaking about a rapture of some kind.
Also, Jesus was asked, “when the kingdom of God would come,” not when will a rapture come.
Furthermore, why is Jesus talking about Himself in such a strange way? Saying things like:
“For just as lightning flashes from the sky and lights up all beneath the sky, thus shall The Son of Man be in -his- day.”
“But first, -he- is going to suffer many things and -he- shall be rejected by this generation.”
Why is Jesus speaking of Himself with the words -him- and -he-? It kind of sounds like Jesus is saying that it will be someone completely different than Himself. A brother (just a thought)?
These kind of studies help me to understand that we will never know all things. Who are we to think that we can understand God’s plan completely, to always know why, or predict all things that are to come? When it comes to being a homosexual, my personal opinion as a Christian is that I do not judge anyone, lest I be judged. I am not a homosexual so it does not concern me and is more or less none of my business. God knows our hearts.
What is Important in Luke 17 to me are these things:
So watch yourselves.
If they say ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.
We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.
He threw himself at Jesus’ feet and thanked him.
The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed
We are all unworthy servants, do your duty. On your knees, ask for the Lord to forgive you and give thanks to Him for all things. Rise and go, repent, pay attention to yourself and do not lose faith. Stop looking for the kingdom of God and be prepared at all times, it is already here. Do not follow men, especially if they tell you they know where or who the Son of Man is. Continuing on, always pray, never give up!
One part that is even more cryptic to me is:
Where, Lord?” they asked.
He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
I think I understand what He meant. This will remain with me and one of my testimonies.
Elle says
By your logic, the 2 “men” in the field should be engaged in some perverse act to keep within the context of your reasoning.
The entire scripture is in regards to what activities people will be engaged in when the one is left and the other taken. Respectively, they are relaxing, working and playing. The word “bed” doesn’t have the same connotation as we think of a bed. A bed was a couch for reclining at while eating, carried the sick, or a bed for sleeping.
Grinding is referring to working.
The field is the world, that’s where the other 2 men are. They are not relaxing or working, they are out in the world playing football, swimming, driving.
The fact that there are “2” has nothing to do with there being literally 2 people, but 2 kinds of people, the righteous and the unrighteous.
Christian Chat says
Luke 17 does not speak of 2 men in a field other than when he talks about the servant, and:
“no one in the field should go back for anything.
Elle says
Yes, I know. Hence why I put “men” in quotation marks at beginning of my comment. Meaning, that word was added to scripture. I didn’t feel a need to add quotation marks a second time. Figured it was fairly obvious.
Rt says
My guess is that everybody believes that this about the rapture!
This scripture is actually about the great tribulation. These ones that are taken are ones that die during the tribulation.
Rt says
King James version translates as “men” other versions translate as two people. This has nothing to do with homosexuals.
Fred Patterson says
I think it’s a mistake to carefully parse gender roles and ignore the 30,000 ft view of the teaching. Is this a teaching on sexual orientation or on sexual activities. Of course it’s not. So what is this teaching about? It is to teach that the end will come suddenly and without warning. There will be no final chances at that time, and not all will be saved. That is the message of the entire Lk 17:26-35 passage.
If, on the other hand, we feel free to derive doctrinal statements from every statement in Scripture, then what message do we derive from the following:
– Mt. 13: 44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field. –
Are we to derive the belief that cheating a field owner out of what is legally his is OK if it’s done for the Kingdom of God? (I hope all would agree that is not an acceptable interpretation; yet that is precisely what the sentence would demand unless we considered what Jesus was trying to teach about the Kingdom of God.)
In closing, the body of teaching in Scripture is clear about homosexuality. To attempt to change a teaching about swift and sudden judgment to become a teaching on sexuality is grasping at straws to find – some/any – justification for homosexuality.
D says
Just in case it has not yet been pointed out here, the context in Luke 17 is not Jesus referring to a rapture but the revelation. He is also not directly saying one is accepted, he is specifically speaking about the harvest – the scary one that occurs just as his Millenial Kingdom Age is about to begin. The angels will do their duty and remove the wicked from the face of the earth and be taken to where devils torment souls until the time that will yet come when all damned will inherit the Lake of Fire.
Garry B. Coston says
This is my take on all of this. The Holy Bible is the Holy Bible which is the word of God; and yes, interpretations of the greek to English or other language may have changed the wording, meaning, etc. of the text. However, the people that wrote the Bible or even interpreted it from the greek I would take as men of God, Servants mind you, and, if God had meant or wanted it to read “two” rather than “two men,” don’t you think he would have influenced the interpreters and the original writers to write and print it as such? If “two men shall be lying in bed,” is what God meant, and they were or are homosexual, then doesn’t John 3:16 and Romans 10:13 come into play? Wouldn’t that mean that if a man or woman is struggling with homosexuality (and who are we to judge), and have accepted Jesus Christ and believe in Him as their Savior and Lord, that God knows their heart and recognizes them as repentant and one of his Children, that He (God) can save that sinning homosexual just as well as anyone else? And don’t forget, there is none of us that are righteous not even one! None of us deserves to be saved, and, if it were not for the shed blood of Jesus washing away our sins if we believe and have faith in Him as Lord and Savior, none of us could be saved! So if “two men shall be lying in the bed,” is what God wanted it to read (and I believe it is because it was really for the latter days in which we live and two men in bed is not taboo and is almost norm), then one or both of them can be saved just as anyone else. God hates the sin but loves the sinner and none of are the Judge (I am not condoning gayness but trying to get everyone to see, in accordance with the bible, how God could take one or two men in bed if they believe and have faith in Him as their Lord and Savior).
Aaron says
Leave it to a perverse generation to take beautiful poetic parables, allegories-the sacred mysteries-teaching on deep spiritual, psychological, and metaphysical things, and turn it into a literal “flesh and bones” worldly argument of for or against physical things/doings/works.
broken says
I think the most important realization from this blog post and comments is that are we Christians obeying Christ’s commandment to us from Matthew 22:36-40 Loving the Lord with our entire beings and loving everyone else as much as we love ourselves?
Because I don’t see much love here. Whether the passage is correctly interpreted or not, I’m ashamed at the words I’ve seen written by other Christians. If you were gay and read this blog post, would *you* want to have anything to do with Christianity? The religion that calls you perverse and blames you for the downfall of our civilization?
Christians aren’t condemning other sins like sodomy. Adultery and fornication is ok if you’re rich and powerful and give the people what they want. Look at all the Christians that voted for Roy Moore in Alabama. He’s closer to a true Soddomite than two consenting adults who are the same sex and want to marry to get the same financial and legal benefits as a heterosexual couple. (here’s an idea, give *all* adults the same benefits regardless of marital status)
Our Vice President has said that he believes that homosexuals should be sent to ‘treatment’ facilities. To brainwash the gay away. Does that make unbelievers desire our God? Maybe they’d at least understand if we set up mandatory treatment for porn addicts, pill poppers, alcoholics, adulterers, gluttons, haters…
What drew all of us to God was that He loved us just as we were and am. He gives us daily *overwhelming* mercy despite our continued sinning. Even when we are the complete opposite of what He commanded us to be.
There’s no limitations on who our neighbors are. It’s not just American Christian same denomination neighbors. We’re not just supposed to *like* them–wave hi, chat when we’re outside at the same time, invite them to church once or twice, bring brownies when they move in. We’re supposed to LOVE them with the same depth and fervor as we love ourselves. Do we come even close to that? The answer is in the Facebook and website comments on topics like Black Lives Matter, The Wall, Muslims, Same Sex marriage. Put yourself in those peoples’ shoes. Does that sound like love to you?
We’re supposed to witness to and love everyone. To be there for them and help them. The New Testament church is supposed to take care of each other. The poor, the sick, the widows, and orphans. American contemporary churches don’t even come *close*. That’s not the church’s job, the government does that. Oh, wait. We even militantly oppose government programs that would care for everybody that needs help. The programs we do/did have are not getting nearly enough funding and many are currently being defunded. Even well-off Americans with great jobs and insurance have a hard time affording medical care. Too bad for the rest.
In the end times, false prophets will deceive many people, as wolves in sheep’s clothing. Matt 7:15
2 Thes 2:10 “And with all delusion of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”
Love of the Truth. Jesus is the Truth, and His love is what saves us all. The definition of Biblical Love can be found in 1 Cor 13. If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
So going through the motions is meaningless. We’re just like the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Following the law and debating about scriptural definitions, but doing nothing to help all the people that flocked to Jesus for the help they needed. Followers like the woman at the well, Samaritans, lepers. Romans, tax collectors…
So what is real LOVE? 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.8 Love never fails.
Are our actions LOVE? Would you feel loved by the way that you treat others? If you were homeless, or addicted to drugs, or struggling with sexual temptations (heterosexual is no less a sin), would you be interested in listening to someone who called you names and told you that you were going to hell? Would you want someone to give you a meal or a tract?
Remember the parable about the servants with the talents? The 3rd servant buries his talents and has nothing to show his master, so he is condemned. Are we American Christians using our resources to help the most people? Are we showing true LOVE to *everyone* that God brings across our paths? Or are we hoarding our money and God-given talents in our little safe community church bubbles? Our world is a war-torn battlefield. Are we nurses on the front lines giving of ourselves to help as many people as we can? Or are we holed up in fall out shelters masquerading as churches because we’re afraid? We have SOOO much in this country, yet we’re the most selfish people on earth.
Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal
Fred Akers says
What sophistry in your article Jeremy. If I ever wanted a course to twist the scriptures to fit my own preconceived ideas about God’s view on homosexuality, yours would be at the top.
Jesus’ great concern about the Pharisees condemnation of his authority to forgive sins when healing the lame man let down by his four friends through the roof was their disregard for common sense. Jesus said, ‘which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven or take up your mat and walk? So that you may know that the son of man has the authority on earth to forgive sins, I say to you take up your mat and walk’ (paraphrased).
Jesus is saying, listen to common sense if I cannot reach you any other way. Homosexuality IS condemned by God clearly in the Scriptures . . . bolts screw into nuts, bolts don’t screw into each other to work, and nuts have no function with each other either. Simple common sense would do you well in reading the scriptures and your lack of it puts you in the same sophistry category of the Pharisees, trying to bend the scriptures to fit their own selfish objectives. Jesus left no quarter for the Pharisees. I feel sorry for you friend.
Jeremy Myers says
1. It’s not my article, but a summary of someone else’s. I published here for people to consider and respond.
2. What’s your connection between Luke 17:34 and Luke 5:17-39?
3. If Jesus is not teaching here about homosexuality, where does He? Do you have a verse or reference? He certainly didn’t teach about bolts and nuts …
4. Could it be that you are twisting Scripture to get it to support your own hatred and dislike for a certain group of people?
Isaac says
Your results are interesting and results in some good considerations.
Firstly, this creates a contradiction automatically because Paul says clearly who will enter the kingdom of heaven.
However, I stop agreeing when you say the Greek work for “one” and “the other” as definately being about females because the words are feminine in greek.
My studies have resulted in two ways of showing this not accurate.
Firstly, a quick study shows Greek word gender does not always emply human being sex gender. It almost always does in regards to names, but no names are mentioned in this verse in Luke. This is of itself not conclusive evidence to say female Greek words “mia” for one, and “hetera” for other even IMPLIES females let alone proves it.
Second method to discrediting your suggestion is examine word usage in other places by the same writer and other writers.
Look up strongs 1520 “mia” and 2087 “hetera”. Quick examples, Mia is used for one tittle, one flesh, one mind, one day, one week, one faith, one shephard, one covenant, one flock.. so on and so forth. Sometimes Mia is used for feminine sex gender such as one widow, one servant, but is not always feminine.
The same with hetera for “the other”.
My conclusion? The writer of this article ignore conflicts and contradictions his conclusion would cause, ignores word usage in other places and context, and misrepresents Greek language rules. I think the writer sees what they want to see.
Isaac says
Another note of interest is that “grinding” as alēthousai is only used in Luke 17 and Mathew 24. It comes from the root aléthó which means “to grind”. This word is “the same as” aleuron which means flour, grain, meal.
The Greek word used in these passages for “grind” imply grinding flour, no sexual correlation.
Will says
Jesus says two people not 2 men. Please people, get a clue.
Terry Smith says
Arsenokoites translates to Male +Bedder…so 2 men (whether straight or gay) would be an abomination if they are sleeping in the same bed according to the translation of the word Arsenokoites. Just throwing it out there.
Troy says
Goetz is completely out to lunch on his Hebrew. Get someone who really knows what the verses in Judges and Job etc mean. Such garbage from Goetz makes me vomit. Honestly. Just lies to say Job was talking about sex in Chapter 31 v 10. And Samson was “grinding” with men for punishment!? Tell me another one. I’ve been a Hebraist for three decades; never seen such trash in all my years. And then he wants to add such nonsense to Luke in Chapter 17?! Jesus couldn’t change the Law if He wanted to. Sodomy was wrong and Luke 17 doesn’t and can’t negate the commandments, no matter how much BS Mr. Goetz wants to “grind up” from out of his head.
Shawn says
Could it be the 2 men and 2 women is the body left and the spirit taken so it could mean there is one man one women man’s spirit taken body left women’s spirit taken body left for flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God
Becky says
Someone has changed the Word Of God, it was never two men in bed
W. Knowles says
The truest answer to whether GOD accepts LGBT individuals is that it is GOD’s own sovereign prerogative. GOD’s wisdom and power is so far transcendent beyond our own and by faith must be trusted. To try to understand GOD’s love and mind in the context of this particular type of verse is (and always has been) man’s desire to find a way to justify his own prejudices while hiding his ignorance behind his faulty and limited interpretation of the DIVINE. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself. Nothing else is truly asked of us.
Timothy Kephart says
Hello. Could you provide what the feminine vs the masculine of “duos” is that you said you had found that led to you believing in the specificity of why it is man and woman being explained in relation together? I did some looking but am limited in Google’s power. Thank you.
Sandra Ward says
Grinding is a reference to grinding corn into mill. You can slight of hand yourself with scripture all the way to the grave and it will not change the word or your destination. Repentance is the acceptance of wrong doing period which is key to redemption receive the sacrifice and be reborn into the same Spirit of God then all these things will be revealed to you correctly. People struggle to fit round pegs into square holes until they release the stubborn determination to make it work. Salvation is like that. You let all of what isn’t right go and see things the right way. Shalom.
Josie Trovato says
I think this whole passage is absolutely ridiculous!! Luke 17:34-35 is not okaing homosexuality! And about the women grinding at the mill. Simply states they are grinding wheat for flour!! Your minds are not pure if you consider grinding means anything different!! If you have ears to hear let him hear!!
Barbara says
I think maybe luke 17:34 references the fact that like women who shared one tent (like the red tent), that at those times in the middle east men also slept in one tent with each other for convenience and safety.
AWAKE says
You seem to be reaching. The fact is the bible is filled with contradictions. Bible writers have given conflicting accounts of the same story. A writer condemns homosexuality, another writer condones it.
There are 2 conflicting accounts of the creation of Adam and Eve. 2 conflicting accounts of Jesus’ birth and where they went. One has Wise men, the other does not.
Re The Road To Damascus, Paul gives 3 conflicting accounts. The story of Noah and Jonah is not logistically, physically or scientifically possible on many levels. Also the bugs, insects, roaches, parasites: Where did Noah find them since they all would have drowned? What about the massive amount of food required to feed all the animals for 6-12 months? How do all the animal kinds relieve themselves? What about the massive wooden boat? It was proven it would not have been seaworthy. Carnivores were not vegetarian. Dinosaur bone fossils found with bird bones and smaller Dinosaur bone fossils inside the larger Dinosaur. The earth was never without light as it revolves around the sun. There is an amazing You Tube video by Lloyd Evans, “40 Scientific Inaccuracies From The Bible”.
There are many more. The bible no longer hold up in the information age. It was written by sexist men who were mysogenistic, committed Genocide, held slaves, had punishments that did not fit the crime always. The Hebrew God was angry and vindictive, a woman who was raped would be executed along with her rapist if she did not or could not scream.The Greek scriptures show a much kinder Jesus, than the blood lustful God of the Hebrew bible. The bible has always been corrupt. If God inspired it, why is the fixed unmoveable earth incorrectly described?
Bible Scholars also believe that the bible is 1000 plus years younger than believed. Prophesies are the result of adding stories by putting the events, like the fall of Babylon, out of order. Events are placed in the bible after an event but written in to make it appear it was much earlier, to promote the fullfiled prophecies.
Kevin says
So I guess when the disciples were sleep while they were traveling with Jesus we could consider them gay or in other words homosexual. Anybody that understands the Scriptures clearly sees that this is a demonic twist on the word of God to satisfy the appetites of those who refuse to turn from lifestyles clearly pointed out in Leviticus and Romans. It’s ridiculous to think of this verse in that disgusting manner. I remember when the evil spirit of deception behind the gay and lesbian movement started throwing a tantrum and harassing people that spoke against it especially in Hollywood and sports industry.
You couldn’t disagree for fear of offending the elite and its followers.
Now satan has gained ground in the minds of people that are brainwashed into believing it’s ok. Cowards are or afraid to speak out truth because of fear of backlash.
Plus A large percentage of people don’t study the Scriptures for themselves so some supposed smart person probably gay or lesbian comes in and twist the Greek and Hebrew to blows the minds of those that are naïve and ignorant in the Scriptures.
But hey if you think it’s worth the risk and you live a long enough life to see this event it’s your soul.
Matt says
It would seem reading a rapture in here is the wrong move. Perhaps it is judgment on half of the homosexual couple (so that they have to do it God’s way?). Regardless, it’s paralleled with Sodom and the flood, where the people taken, are taken in judgment (not as a reuniting to Jesus). The judgment and vultures came where the corpse of Jesus lay, that is to Jerusalem in the form of a Roman army in AD 70.
So, no support for same-sex romance. But, people also read Hell wrong in the text, so it should be noted that those judged are disciplined (like a fiery spanken for a child). God’s judgment was ultimately taken out on Jesus, so once ‘all knees bow,’ some under the earth, they will be reunited with God since he has defeated death (otherwise known as seperation from him).
Tania says
King James version says two (and it’s italicized) “men”. That’s the trouble with ALL these “VERSIONS” in revelation it tells us, and this is the 1st Bible pilgrimage here before it was the United States, for I testify unto every man that hearth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of this book prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. To me any other version is false doctrine. Blessings
missionblue says
I appreciate this article/blog. It gives another perspective about people in relationships. Very enlightening.
Jackie windom says
Luke 17:34 says there shall be two men laying in one bed; one shall be taken one shall be left.
It says two men.
I do not believe he is speaking on homosexuality. They would both be Condemned.
J Ohn says
I don’t know where the question is or come from. Why should homosexuals, even practising homosexuals people be rejected by God, when the only unforgivable sin is the one against the holy Spirit.
James says
I do not think these verses are referring to homosexuality or even possible future events.
From what I’ve read, the passage seems to describe a current situation whereby one of the people are either invited to, or taken away, somewhere else, and it is not explicitly stated if this is a good or a bad thing. Although, the imagery may mirror the Parable of the Weeds, where first the worthless are gathered, and then the good.
The best derived meaning I’ve seen so far of these verses is that we don’t know if we are coming or going.
Furthermore, eagles were seen as birds of omens by the ancient Greeks, along with vultures, usually negatively, not always. Eagles circulating could be seen similarly to vultures circling a corpse, which may indicate something bad. I do not see the link to eagles representing gays here.
This is not a passage meant to condemn anyone and I am not myself a prude when it comes to sexual imagery, in the Bible or not, but I think the sexual explanation here is a bit of a stretch. Jesus does seem to reference gays briefly when speaking about eunuchs, but even then, it’s a 50/50 chance as the same verses can also be understood differently, even in the Greek. But if we are to assume he spoke about gays in the eunuch verses, Jesus describes that it is better for them to be celibate.