According to recent research, of the 210 million adults in the United States, 65 million of them used to attend church regularly but no longer do, and 2.7 million more leave every year.
Church as we know it is dying.
[Want to read some of the research for yourself? Find numerous church statistics here (much of which seems contradictory) or get Josh Packard’s book which contains the latest research on this subject.]
But, in my opinion, this does not mean at all the church itself is dying.
How could it? Jesus said, “I will build my church …” Do we honestly think He will fail in this?
No, I believe the church of the future looks absolutely nothing like the church most people are familiar with.
In fact, for many people already, the church of the present looks nothing like the church of the past.
But that is not the point of this post…
I want to talk briefly about those 65 million adults who no longer attend church.
65 Million Adults No Longer Attend Church
A recent study on these 65 million adults discovered that while they no longer attend church, 30 million of them still identify themselves as Christian, and are still actively engaged in various practices and relationships that closely mirror some of the activities and relationships a person might practice in a church building except that they are no longer in a church building.
They firmly believe they are followers of Jesus and are still part of the Church, even though they no longer sit in a pew on Sunday morning.
Do you have a problem with that?
I don’t. I say, “May their tribe increase!”
But I don’t really even want to talk about them.
I want to talk about the other 35 million.
35 Million Have Completely Abandoned Jesus?
I want to talk about the 35 million who used to attend church, and who no longer do, and who no longer self-identify as Christians or claim to follow Jesus or worship God in any meaningful way.
For myself, I find that number highly suspect.
I certainly have not done any sort of scientific research into this segment of the population, but I work in an environment where I get to interact with a lot of religious and non-religious people, and I have had countless conversations with people who probably count as one of the 35 million people who used to attend church and identify as Christian, but no longer do.
And it’s true …
… They don’t attend church. They don’t read their Bibles. They don’t pray. They don’t call themselves “Christian.” They don’t claim to follow Jesus. They use coarse language. They live what appears to be completely “secular” lives.
But do you want to know what I have found?
I have yet to talk to a single person who truly has abandoned God or rejected Jesus.
I am not saying these people don’t exist. I know they do. I just think the number is much, much smaller than 35 million. I would be surprised if it was even 10% of that number.
Here is why I say this …
When I talk to individuals who used to attend church but now want nothing to do with God, Jesus, church, the Bible, or anything of the sort, one of the initial questions I always ask is, “So why did you leave it all behind? What happened? What changed?”
Without fail, I get an answer that falls somewhere into one of the following sorts of explanations:
The church told me I had to believe in 6 24-hour days of creation 6000 years ago. I couldn’t believe that, so I figured that if this is what it meant to be a Christian, I couldn’t be one.
OR
The church was all about hate. They hated gay people. They hated democrats. They hated Muslims. I have some gay friends. I have some Muslim friends. I am a democrat. So I left Christianity.
OR
Have you read the Old Testament? God is drowning everybody who lives and telling the Israelites to slaughter people. I once told my Bible study leader that I was uncomfortable with a God who does these sorts of things, and he told me that I had to love and worship this God or I couldn’t be a Christian. So I’m not a Christian.
OR
Have you read all those silly laws in the Bible? Laws about what I can and cannot wear? What I can and cannot eat? Who I can and cannot hang out with? I like cheeseburgers. I like bacon. And I like hanging out with people who also like to eat these things. I couldn’t follow a God who made a bunch of dumb laws like that.
OR
My pastor was a pedophile and the church board tried to cover it up so the church wouldn’t split. I wonder how many children he molested which we will never know about? I couldn’t have anything to do with people who cover up things like that. So I left and never looked back.
There are a few other similar explanations I have heard, but those are the sorts of explanations I typically hear.
And do you know how I always respond?
Here is what I say:
Guess what?
God agrees with you.
When you reject a religious group because they are closed off about science, or teach you to hate people because they’re different, or tell you that genocide is good and holy, or cover up child molestation to protect a pastor, God cheers you on.
When you turned your back on these things, you did not turn your back on God.
No, you rejected the things God Himself rejects. You did not turn from God; you turned to God.
The truth is that you know what God is like, apparently better than many church people do.
God is like Jesus, and Jesus accepts everybody, loves everybody, forgives everybody. If you want to live like this toward others, then you have not abandoned God, but have been following Him (even if you didn’t know it).
Jesus condemned genocidal behavior. He condemned all portraits of a violent God. If you condemn genocide and violence, then you have not abandoned God, but have been following Him.
The only people Jesus ever condemned are the religious leaders who had a bunch of silly rules to keep people away from God and who covered over their own hypocritical sins and perversions for the sake of power, manipulation, and control. If you condemn these sorts of behaviors in religious people, then you are condemning the things that God also condemns, and you have not abandoned God, but have been following Him.
A lot of people, when they hear this, look at me sort of skeptically, because they have heard the exact opposite from most churches and church leaders. They often say,
Well, if you’re right, I could maybe follow a God like that. But I’ve never heard this before from anybody.
So if I get the chance, I approach the topic from another direction. I might say,
I don’t know if you believe in God or not. You say you don’t. Fine. But hypothetically, IF God did exist, IF there was a God, what would you like Him to be? How would you like Him to behave? What would you like Him to do?
I am not asking you what you think God is like, or what you think the church says God is like. I am asking you what you would like God to be like … if He exists.
They sit back, and they usually joke around a bit about how they want God to give them a million dollars and a mansion on the beach and let them live forever in perfect health.
But eventually, if I press a bit, they get around to describing a God who is not that worked up about sin, but who loves everybody and teaches people to love everybody.
They describe a God who understands how painful and difficult life is, and who knows that a bunch of religious rules and regulations don’t help.
They dream about a God they can talk to and who is with them in their pain, and fear, and sorrow.
They hope that God accepts people regardless of their sexual or political orientation, who sides with the poor and the outcast, who doesn’t have favorites, and who wants equality, justice, freedom, and fairness for all.
And as they dream dreams out loud about God, I get to smile and, when they are done, say,
Guess what? I’ve got some really good news for you.
The God you have described is the God who exists. THAT is what God IS like. THAT is the God revealed by Jesus.
The God you rejected, the God of popular Christianity, is not God.
You rejected a god who kills, steals, and destroys. But God doesn’t do that. You rejected a satanic version of God, which means that by rejecting that false god, you were actually worshipping the true God!
In your heart, you know God. You know what He is truly like. And so when you rejected the god of religion, you actually turned toward the God who truly is.
In fact, in turning away from that god, you were actually following the true God, and you just didn’t know it.
Most people cannot believe this right away, because they have never heard such a thing before.
But sometimes, this idea leads to further conversations, and further questions.
Do you know someone who is angry at God, the Bible, or the church?
If you know someone who is angry at God, the Bible, or the church, praise them for it. Most likely, their anger is Godly anger. Most likely, their disgust is righteous. Most likely, they are representing God’s true heart.
The next time you encounter someone who has “left the church” or “rejected God” rather than tell them that they need to come back, instead, strike up a conversation by asking them what happened, or why they made the decision they did.
And whatever you do, never ever ever EVER have this conversation with the goal of inviting such a person to come to your church. Never.
If you have this sort of conversation with someone, and then you end it with, “So come to our church on Sunday! This is what our pastor teaches! His sermons are great!” you will probably never have a conversation with that person again. They will think that the only reason you said what you said was to get them into a pew at your church. They will see it as manipulative (and they would be right).
In fact, even if the person offers on their own to attend your church, please, tell them not to. Obviously, you cannot forbid them to visit your church, but gently tell them that since they know God so well, they don’t really need to “attend a church” on Sunday morning.
Invite them instead to just be open on a daily basis to what God wants to show them about Himself. Tell them that apparently, God has led them out of the institutional church for a reason, and so He might not want them to go back in. They are still part of His Church, but there might be something else He has in store for them that does not involve singing songs and listening to a sermon on Sunday morning.
Tell them that apparently, they have been doing a fine job of following Jesus, and they should simply be open to seeing where He leads them next.
This will be such a relief to them, that it might be just the thing they need to hear to encourage them to seek God and follow Him intentionally for the first time in their lives. For you have just told them that God is with them, that God wants to lead them, that they can hear from God and know Him within the community of friends they already have. They don’t need to add something “spiritual” to their life; they only need to recognize that God is already there with them, that their entire life is already spiritual.
So those are my thoughts about the so-called “35 million who have turned away from God.” I don’t think they need someone to invite them to “return.” No, what they need is for someone to praise them for their choice, and tell them that in rejecting a manipulative, fear/guilt/shame-based, violent religion, they have not abandoned God, but have actually followed Him into a place that look, sounds, and acts more like Jesus.
Maybe you will be that someone…
That was encouraging. As one who doesn’t “attend” church, I sometimes find myself doubting whether I should or not. But I realize I would only be going out of some sense of religious obligation so I back away again. Glad to see I’m not the only one. And again this was encouraging to hear that I haven’t left God, just man made religious institutions.
Dont give up, Michael. There are many of us. Together we make “a church”. Ha! I am currently involved in a church that i disagree with quite often; but i just cant stop going because i love the people so much! And that’s basically what Jesus said, wasn’t it? “By THIS shall all men know you are My desciples: that you have love for each other.” John 13:35. This may not last forever- it doesn’t have to. We don’t want an Institution. But for this moment in time, these are my peeps, and i am theirs! Yay!
Cathey, thanks for your comment. And there was a time when I went to a church with that same attitude: Just love them. The problem I ran into was that the people were so committed to “the system” that it was hard to just love them. They only thought in terms of what went on at the church and it was hard to get them to go outside that format. As a result the relationships felt fake and phony and superficial.
“You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.” James 4:4
These church people are the world, they believe on another Jesus and another Gospel. If God has called you out of the church you have nothing in common with them. You believe in two different things. The church system is anti-Christ. They ultimately believes the holy spirit has no power, so come and work for man and earn your salvation. God has taught me this is a lie and “Satan deep secrets” he is deceiving many family and people leading them right to heal. This includes are family members as well.
“33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven. 34Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.…” Matthew 10:33
“10 I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.” 1 Corinthians 5:11
Amen. Only god has to reveal this to you. Stay encourage
C. S. Lewis talks about Christianity being best spread “by infection.” Not by programs, movie stars, hammers or crusades. Definitely not by money.
I’m not familiar with that quote. Do you know which book that is from?
Thanks for the good interaction. Yes, the church is more than just what happens on Sunday morning in a building on the corner! In some cases, that meeting might actually be hindering the church.
Many of the local “congregations” which make up the Church, have just as the Bible foretells us, have ceased being a Houses of Worship and many have become Social Clubs. While such is sad, at the same time, it tells us the Rapture will soon occur, followed by the 2nd Return of Christ. I can hardly wait!!!!
It’s in Mere Christianity, i believe, Michael. The “not by” part is, of course, just my commentary. 🙂 Thanks, Jeremy. KUTGW! (Keep Up The Good Work? )
Find a house church
We walked away over a year ago to pursue home church and individual discipleship… this is exactly how we felt. We did not abandon God’s people or construct to “gather together”; in fact we feel we are following closer than we ever had a chance to behind sermons, worship concerts, and production.
Yes, this is the experience of most people I know who have stopped attending the Sunday morning gathering.
As an intro I think I would tell them when leaving church they indeed were following God.- adding God is not found in churches for the word church is a misnomer. Church was a term used by pagan emperors to usurp the term ‘ecclesia’, defining those called out by God to experience His love, follow Him, worship Him, submit to Him, serve Him, and glorify Him through word and deed — organically, freely, spontaneously. In doing so we experience the abundant life Christ came to give.
I would then move to a variation of the following I posted earlier today.
Are You a Pawn of Constantine, A Dead Roman, Pagan Emperor?
I was a part of traditional, institutional “Christianity”, including four different denominations, and twelve different churches over a span of three decades. Yet, it was only after I left traditional, institutional “Christianity” did I learn…
> how the early ecclesia truly operated
> the historical high points of Christianity’s twists and turns.
> the erroneous teaching and extortion found in raising money under the ancient, Jewish tithing law.
> that top down, hierarchical leadership is anti-Christian.
> the office of pastor is not found in the NT.
> sermons, (lectures), leave little or no lasting impact.
> of the forty thousand denominations splitting through the Great Schism over insidious differences in non-essential doctrine.
> what individual priesthood really is, and it’s not found in a titled man behind a pulpit.
> the Lord’s Supper, (Communion), is more than a piece of cracker and a sip of juice.
> there are close to $500 Billion in church edifices in America sitting empty 164 out of 168 hours a week.
> how churches usurped the Ecclesia, and have held it captive for over 1700 years.
> of Constantine’s Big Con, and how he constipated the ecclesia with paganism.
This is but an abbreviated list of things I’ve learned since leaving the confines of traditional, institutional “Christianity”. There’s no reason to wonder why these truths were not taught in any of the traditional, institutional church buildings I have ever entered. For if they did their church buildings would forever empty, and they’d lose control.
Understand, it’s all about control. If you desire freedom from its control over you, and being little more than a pawn of Constantine, a dead Roman emperor, you’re going to have to leave it all behind too. You’ll be glad you did.
Yep, they’ve left and are continuing to leave, for all the reasons you have mentioned and more. Numbers are decreasing and that usually means less $$$ coming in, and for many churches that is the big problem.
I do think that some of the people who left never were Jesus followers. They were part of a group because of the group’s viewpoint on politics, gay people, women or similar issues, or to “network” for business purposes.
Then there are those of us who find “church”outside the walls. I understand that some people don’t know how to make that work, but for those of us who have it figured out there is no looking back.
You’re a great speaker Jeremy. Your podcasts are first rate. I suspect you were a wonderful preacher. I enjoy listening. All of that can be part of following Jesus. But “church” is so much more than singing a few songs and listening to a 20 minute sermon once a week, voting a certain way, and opposing this or that political issue.
Thanks, Sam. I enjoy writing and teaching. It is one of the things God gifted me to do! Of course, as you say, being the church is about so much more than just reading, teaching, or singing songs. Thanks for leading the way in some of these other areas.
So true! religion also hates those who portray Jesus different than what they were taught!
Yes, they see it as a threat.
There’s a lot in this post, some of which I agree with, so the following only addresses the concept of ‘God’s violence.’
In my opinion, this advice here appears to be leading people on a path to reject God’s Truth, and is also teaching that He applauds them when they assess the words of the prophets as delusional. I think people need to pray very carefully before they embrace this idea that the OT prophets were deluded. Saul rejected God’s command, a command that included ‘violence’ and such rejection was harshly condemned by Samuel. God gives each of us light, and we are expected to respond to that light. When we reject that light…..what do you think happens?
Saul Disobeys the Lord
1 Samuel 15 One day, Samuel told Saul:
The Lord had me choose you to be king of his people, Israel. Now listen to this message from the Lord: 2 “When the Israelites were on their way out of Egypt, the nation of Amalek attacked them. I am the Lord All-Powerful, and now I am going to make Amalek pay!
3 “Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don’t have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies. Slaughter their cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys.”
4 Saul sent messengers who told every town and village to send men to join the army at Telaim. There were two hundred ten thousand troops in all, and ten thousand of these were from Judah. Saul organized them, 5 then led them to a valley near one of the towns in[a] Amalek, where they got ready to make a surprise attack. 6 Some Kenites lived nearby, and Saul told them, “Your people were kind to our nation when we left Egypt, and I don’t want you to get killed when I wipe out the Amalekites. Leave here and stay away from them.”
The Kenites left, 7 and Saul attacked the Amalekites from Havilah[b] to Shur, which is just east of Egypt. 8 Every Amalekite was killed except King Agag. 9 Saul and his army let Agag live, and they also spared the best sheep and cattle. They didn’t want to destroy anything of value, so they only killed the animals that were worthless or weak.[c]
The Lord Rejects Saul
10 The Lord told Samuel, 11 “Saul has stopped obeying me, and I’m sorry that I made him king.”
Samuel was angry, and he cried out in prayer to the Lord all night. 12 Early the next morning he went to talk with Saul. Someone told him, “Saul went to Carmel, where he had a monument built so everyone would remember his victory. Then he left for Gilgal.”
13 Samuel finally caught up with Saul,[d] and Saul told him, “I hope the Lord will bless you! I have done what the Lord told me.”
14 “Then why,” Samuel asked, “do I hear sheep and cattle?”
15 “The army took them from the Amalekites,” Saul explained. “They kept the best sheep and cattle, so they could sacrifice them to the Lord your God. But we destroyed everything else.”
16 “Stop!” Samuel said. “Let me tell you what the Lord told me last night.”
“All right,” Saul answered.
17 Samuel continued, “You may not think you’re very important, but the Lord chose you to be king, and you are in charge of the tribes of Israel. 18 When the Lord sent you on this mission, he told you to wipe out those worthless Amalekites. 19 Why didn’t you listen to the Lord? Why did you keep the animals and make him angry?”
20 “But I did listen to the Lord!” Saul answered. “He sent me on a mission, and I went. I captured King Agag and destroyed his nation. 21 All the animals were going to be destroyed[e] anyway. That’s why the army brought the best sheep and cattle to Gilgal as sacrifices to the Lord your God.”
22 “Tell me,” Samuel said. “Does the Lord really want sacrifices and offerings? No! He doesn’t want your sacrifices. He wants you to obey him. 23 Rebelling against God or disobeying him because you are proud is just as bad as worshiping idols or asking them for advice. You refused to do what God told you, so God has decided that you can’t be king.”
24 “I have sinned,” Saul admitted. “I disobeyed both you and the Lord. I was afraid of the army, and I listened to them instead. 25 Please forgive me and come back with me so I can worship the Lord.”
26 “No!” Samuel replied, “You disobeyed the Lord, and I won’t go back with you. Now the Lord has said that you can’t be king of Israel any longer.”
27 As Samuel turned to go, Saul grabbed the edge of Samuel’s robe. It tore! 28 Samuel said, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel away from you today, and he will give it to someone who is better than you. 29 Besides, the eternal[f] God of Israel isn’t a human being. He doesn’t tell lies or change his mind.”
30 Saul said, “I did sin, but please honor me in front of the leaders of the army and the people of Israel. Come back with me, so I can worship the Lord your God.”
Would you say that Jesus rejected or embrace violence? If Jesus is “the light” then it seems pretty safe that if I follow the light of the revelation of Jesus, I will not be rejecting the light of God’s revelation.
Jeremy, you wrote: Would you say that Jesus rejected or embrace violence?
Neither. I see the question is a false dichotomy. The answer depends on context, which interestingly enough often seems to be overlooked or ignored.
You wrote: If Jesus is “the light” then it seems pretty safe that if I follow the light of the revelation of Jesus, I will not be rejecting the light of God’s revelation.
Well, I will grant you this…If you endeavor to follow God’s will and you focused solely on Jesus and tried to emulate His behavior….picking up your cross daily, laying down your life for your friends…You’re off to a pretty good start on how to live the Christian life. However….Jesus also revealed this light:
25And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
The prophets foretold of His coming. This is a critical point.
19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me, when an OT prophet says, “Thus Saith the Lord. The Lord told us to kill all of the ‘people group x’ and so we did.” The interpretation I see coming from this blog is, ‘They were deluded, God really didn’t tell them to do that. They were scapegoating. That’s the lesson.’ That’s one way to look at it, but that’s not what the prophet said. Now, I’m sure some might play with semantics here, and I don’t know ancient Greek, but I find it hard to see how this view is ‘listening to the Prophets.’ And if we don’t ‘listen to the prophets’ and teach others to do likewise….:
If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
I understand and interpret the prophets through the supreme revelation of God in Jesus Christ. Many people reverse this, and allow various statements in the Old Testament to overshadow the revelation in Jesus Christ.
Show me one place in the Gospels where Jesus encouraged violence against another human being. He is the ultimate “Thus Saith the Lord.”
Well, I see a couple of problems here, but let’s take it one by one:
1) you wrote: Show me one place in the Gospels where Jesus encouraged violence against another human being.
The first problem is, you make an assumption here that, even if there wasn’t one verse in which He did this, that that would prove your case. I fail to see how it even supports your case, I might even go so far to say that it is irrelevant. Jesus emptied Himself, He wasn’t omniscient, or omnipresent during the incarnation. There were some things, operationally that were a little different during the incarnation than before. Second, Jesus’s mission was a little different during the incarnation. Jesus had never been crucified before, he’d never had to learn before. He probably had never been resurrected before, yet I think it would be wrong to press that issue and say that, because of that, the God of the OT was different than the God of the NT and that we have to accept one or the other but not both since they ‘contradict.’,
I noticed you chose not to address this:
If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
2) You wrote: I understand and interpret the prophets through the supreme revelation of God in Jesus Christ.
I agree and I’m still trying to see how your interpretation of the OT prophets differs in any meaningful way from my atheist friends. I see a difference, but it’s a difference without distinction. They think the OT prophets came up with their own ideas about God, but they were deluded. I’m hearing the same thing from you.
3) The context of the ‘violence’ of the OT is continually ignored. The importance of that context cannot be understated. But since we don’t’ have room for hundreds of pages addressing it. Let me illustrate this way…. if a police officer used violent force to kill someone in the process of murdering dozens of innocent people, and as a result of using that lethal force, he saved dozens of innocent lives, I don’t know too many people that would say the police officer was being unloving..in fact, I don’t know one personally…and yet, I think we’re giving God harsher treatment than the police officer.
4) The OT prophets supernaturally predicted the coming of the Messiah. If you undermine their authority(to take at face value and not resort to ‘they were deluded and scapegoating’), aren’t you undermining perhaps the most significant apologetic we have to know that the resurrection really happened? If its just man giving their opinion about God here and there, sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong, what basis would we have to trust the what the NT says about anything, including Jesus Himself?
5) You wrote: He is the ultimate “Thus Saith the Lord.” Although you didn’t come right out and say it, to me it sounds as though Jesus ‘thus saith the Lord’ somehow conflicts or is in tension with what the OT prophets said. I don’t see that at all.
Tell me this. Is there even ONE instance of ‘violence’ in the OT that the propehts told us about, is there even one that you think actually happened? What about the flood? Did God kill anyone in that? Or was Noah deluded about making the arc and he just got lucky when by coincidence the flood came ‘without the hand of providence?’ Or maybe you believe the flood never happened at all? Or what about the first-born of the Egyptians? Did that happen? If so, why was it ok for God to judge there, and not at other times?
Just one more point I wanted to respond to:
You wrote: I understand and interpret the prophets through the supreme revelation of God in Jesus Christ. Many people reverse this, and allow various statements in the Old Testament to overshadow the revelation in Jesus Christ.
I think there is a better way. Hold them both up equally.
>Is thete even ONE instance of “violence” in the OT that the Prophets told us about, is there even one that you think actually happened.
Obviosly I’m not Jeremy, nor, less obviously, am I speaking for him. IOW, I’m only speaking for myself.
It is extremely easy to blame God for what one does, or does not do. That does not mean that God committed the act. That does not mean that God approved the act.
As far as the flood goes, it probably was a “natural” event that God could have prevented, had He chosen to do so. He chose not to do so, because of the extent of the sin of humans. Instead, He chose to save those He considered the closest to him.
For Jonathan:
It is extremely easy to blame God for what one does, or does not do. That does not mean that God committed the act. That does not mean that God approved the act.
Of course not, but that’s not what we’re talking about here at all. We’re talking about when a prophet says, under inspiration, as part of the canon, says essentially: ‘Thus saith the Lord – go wipe out this group”
THAT is the issue. Was the prophet correct? Or was he delusional?
you wrote:
As far as the flood goes, it probably was a “natural” event that God could have prevented, had He chosen to do so. He chose not to do so, because of the extent of the sin of humans. Instead, He chose to save those He considered the closest to him.
Ok, that is a very interesting/revealing opinion. That was not the opinion of Moses. So you believe Moses was deluded…interesting.
I don’t think we have merely interpretive differences here, I think…in a fundamental sense, we each have different canons we are operating with.
I might argue a few fine points here and there. But, over all, I would agree with what you have said here. Certainly many ‘churches’ are pushing false, non scriptural, beliefs. I would agree that belief in a 6 day creation is not a neccesity to be a christian. But I would argue that people are having trouble with this (and many other issues) because they are expected to accept it without evidence or rational arguement. Chuches are saying “It’s true. You have to accept it” but not offering any scriptural or exigenical evidene to support the statements.
Yes, and even when there is support, some of the issues are made to be “salvific,” as if you have to believe it to be a true Christian.
You have a subtle, underlying negative posture toward fellowship. People are stronger when they are not alone, and that’s just a fact. We are made in his image and his image is one of close fellowship. Yes, some groups have gone astray as described. Yet, love can reign and iron sharpens iron. “Invite them instead to just be open on a daily basis to what God wants to show them about Himself.” There are many other voices and liars abound. Balance needed here.
IMO, Mr. Meyers understands the importance of fellowship, although I understand how this one blog could lead you to your statement. I come from a church that went through heart-wrenching changes leaving most of its worldwide membership “church-less” (I believe the majority are still “church-less” after 20 years.) All of us (from that church) understand the manipulation and the shallowness of following up with: just come to my church (as if it is different somehow than other organized religious fellowships. We know it is not.) On the other hand, I am not comfortable just leaving the person where they are either – because who are they fellow-shipping with? We all know that following Jesus is not a solitary journey. So perhaps another response includes an on-going invitation to eat together or have coffee or something (friending on FB? something!), at least for a season, if the person is willing. You know, without a religious agenda. But that assumes that the “church” person doing the talking reaches out or is willing to reach out beyond the church walls in creative ways. (Oh! Mr. Meyers – I get it – perhaps the real lesson here is as much for the “church” person as for the “churchless”.)
Thanks, Lesley. Yes, I love and value fellowship, and get as much fellowship as I can. I have never been opposed to fellowship.
Of course, I am not always certain that “fellowship” is actually occurring when people sit in pews for 90 minutes on a Sunday morning while a few people up front do all the talking. That is not real “fellowship.” Sure, some fellowship might take place before or after these 90 minutes, which is wonderful.
Those of us who chose to believe God is not violent have not come to this place easily. I’m not saying it’s a hard process, only that it is painful. It‘s much like the experience upon conversion, when I chose to turn my back on my foul friends; choosing to embrace Christ, and contempt was thrown at me.
It’s not a ‘hard process’ because it is simply reasonable, rational, logical, and, in my view, honoring to God. On the other hand, what does fundamentalist Christianity demand of me, this is hard!
~The concept of, ‘God is Love’ is not clear, and ultimately meaningless to me (and you).
~Or God has a different standard of love for Himself than He expects of me.
~To believe in a violent God means, I must suspend my understanding of Love for the sake What men say God did, ie: commanding and doing some unreasonable and terrible things, ie: kill every living thing in a city.
~I must admit that John Calvin, who burned ‘a heretic’ over a slow smoldering fire, was simply reflecting what he thought was the actual character of God The Father.
~That yes, because ‘love’ according to my definition, is wrong, God’s character can, in fact, predestine some to eternal hell. Something I refused to believe long before I understood the another view.
~For the sake of church membership, I must declare with my mouth, that God is someone who is different from what He has shown me, both by Jesus example, and His own personal longsuffering for me.
~I must deny every moral repulsion, and embrace a violent God, who is ‘the same yesterday, today, and forever’.
~I must exalt the record keepers of ancient cultures above the Paraclete who teaches me God’s ways, and reminds me of everything Jesus said; and is promised to teach me all things.
You see, everything hinges on only one thing, and it’s not God’s inspired words! Everything, including church acceptance, the love of my brethren; in some cases, my livelihood, for some- a smoldering pyre; whether branded a heretic, or orthodox. All depends, not on God’s Word, but what men say is God’s Word. All hinge on ‘men’- Men, who transcribed, passed on the traditions of ancient Israel. Also, mere men who spoke for, and about God; many of whom were caught up in the local conflicts and causes of their culture. As for the New Testament – council’s; committees; traditions. Many of that same group who brought us the Crusades, the Inquisition, the burning of Tyndale’s bones, only because he translated the scripture into words understood by common men. And what is almost comical, those who criticize my beliefs, also condemn the same group who carried the scripture from the early Church fathers, translated to the Vulgate and through to the Reformation.
Keep in mind, there is no archaeological record of many things in scripture; including the often sought for Ark resting on mount Ararat. Nor any historical record of the persons of Kings David & Solomon. Neither is there empirical archaeological evidence of Israel’s wandering forty years in the desert.
The above is not to say these are not in existence; neither is it to say they will not be found. It is only to say, it could be, that metaphor and legend ‘may’ be part of Israel’s narrative to its progeny. And what we read as fact, may be more like the seven days of creation; a metaphor, symbolism of what God has done, but proven scientifically incorrect.
How convenient it would be to have all the original manuscripts of scripture. And to have something like the Mishnah to order our faith in every detail. Sadly, this is similar to what evangelical fundamentalists wish, and attempt to demand of their fellow servants of Jesus.
And here is the crux of this issue; there are good Christians throughout history who have a different interpretation of the recorded events of scripture. Those who insist that the Bible is literal in all places, and there are no errors whatsoever. These also say that the culture of the Israel throughout history absolutely reflect God’s character. I disagree. I stand with those who do not need a perfect narrative to allow a honest and sincere conscience before God. Consequently, though I hate abortion, I will not bomb an abortion clinic. I will not, unlike John Calvin and Martin Luther, and the Catholic institution, persecute, and even kill those who disagree with me. Though I may receive judgement from God’s people, I sincerely believe God considers me in the right.
Most people fail to distinguish between “religion” and “faith.” A religion by definition imposes a particular set of beliefs on people. A “faith” is simply that which is believed. Most people have some sort of “faith” regarding the spiritual realm but many modern people have lost faith (pun intended) in organized religions and churches which attempt to use people’s faith to control them. Most mainline religions have lost all credibility because they have been colluding with government to direct the behavior of the people in ways approved by the government since 325 CE.
Very true. The collusion between government and religion was one of the greatest disasters to come upon Christianity.
It was Gods plan. He had a plan and still does.
God is so wonderful! The deeper we search, the more HE reveals!
Am really encourage with your approach to such situation. God bless you.
but
i would like to know if the situation at hand is related to Hebrews 6:4-6?
Also i need more understanding on “ONCE SAVED FOREVER SAVED?
Thank you
You can search my blog for more on these sorts of topics. Just go to the bottom of the page and search for whatever you want!
What a great post: people reasons leave the church:
1. the church’s stance on the evolution/creation debate
2. separatism (or isolationism) characterised by hate/judgement/condemnation of the other
3. God is mean (the flood, Israel’s possession of Canaan)
4. low biblical literacy (e.g. applying Levitical Law out of context)
5. egregious sexual sin in the leadership
I’d like to add a couple more, if that’s okay:
1. LOVE Those few we know in our generation and younger who have stopped going to church on Sundays have done so for (mostly) one reason: they weren’t loved. It had nothing to do with theology (your first four reasons), and everything to do with whether their church behaved like the spiritual family it should be and cared about them and others. Church politics often, but not always, played a big part.
2. RELEVANCE Some older people we know stopped going decades ago because church just wasn’t relevant to them any more (if it ever was).
Most people we know were never in the church to have ever left. They haven’t specifically rejected church, it was just never an option worth considering.
Another reason, maybe the most numerous, is some variation to the problem if evil; good God, all powerful God, evil happened to me or someone I love and God and God did not come through, so I bagged on God.
Jeremy, do you have a similar response to this common one like the other 5 that might open doors in the same way?
Peter,
You are right. That is a big one.
I don’t have a quick explanation for these situations … that explanation takes a whole lot longer. Some of it is the common misconception that God is a magic genie in the clouds. Of course, the church has done a great disservice to the world when it teaches that God is in absolute control of everything. There are numerous ways for God to be in control while not “controlling” the bad things that happen, such as accidents, cancer, and earthquakes.
I spent fifteen years ‘outside’ formal church, here in the UK. I was going through a ‘dark night of the soul’, and one of the main instigators God put in my path was that ones you mentioned a) about anti-science stuff and b) about the silly laws. Glad to say our leadership weren’t paedos, though! 🙂
During that fifteen years, I was going through a transforming, ‘chrysalis’ period as described here: https://evangelicaliberal.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/stages-of-spiritual-development/
and although I did not writ that post, I can identify with it.
My personal reflections on the Dark Night are here: http://www.flyinginthespirit.cuttys.net/2014/04/22/the-dark-night-of-the-soul/
…and I wonder if a majority of those people who have ‘left’ the Church are going through a similar thing. Because after my wilderness period I am closer to God than ever before, ministering in more power and living in huge faith.
Imagine 34 million faith-filled people like that being released into American society. Wouldn’t that be something? I wonder if that’s a good part of God’s plan…..
Thank you. Your post comes at the right time. I left the church about 3 years ago. I couldn’t handle it anymore. Anyway, the last few years, I’ve realised more and more things I hate about the system I was a part of for most of my life. But I’ve also reached a faith wobble. I’ve even wondered if there is a God at times and considered other spiritual practices like meditation, reiki and paganism. It’s only because there’s this thirst or empty spot in my soul for something more – for a deeper sense of spirituality. I’ve gone through such a difficult, isolated time as the Christians around me believe things that make me so angry – like gays are sinning and that homosexuality is the worst thing for our society and is accelerating us towards the end times and that if we support gay people we are deeply deceived and can fall away from the faith. I’m sorry, I’ve got a Christian gay friend who is married to the love of her life. She’s the most amazing person and her relationship with her wife is so steeped in unconditional love, peace and joy, that I CANNOT judge her for it. To me, she’s more an example of Christ’s love than something or someone who is going to lead us toward the tribulation and deception! It’s these things that put me off organised Christianity amongst other horrible experiences I’ve gone through like tithing while in debt and battling to feed my kids to a pastor who is much richer than me and having to fast when I’m working a day job and if I don’t fast and pray I’m sending people to hell. There’s also the drudgery of listening to the same old sermons over and over again which only bring condemnation and a sense of not being good enough in God’s eyes. But lately, I want more. I need something in my life. I need to believe in something. I can’t read the Bible by the way. It chokes me up. It makes me feel dead inside. But I’ve been considering looking for a non-evangelical church in my town which doesn’t upset me and is more liberal, just so I can have something to keep my faith strong, because I’m battling to believe on my own. I don’t want to end up an atheist!
I have numerous lifelong friends who no longer go to an assembly to worship, pray, and hear the Scriptures. They say that they are still pursuing “spirituality” (a popular term these days). That can mean anything from a practice of meditation, to “God within,” to a therapeutic faith that fits today’s zeitgeist: “Have it your way.” I don’t doubt their sincerity, and I mostly agree with their critique of the organized church. But when Jesus is no longer Lord and the Holy Spirit is no longer Guide, aren’t we just as lost as before we began following Christ? Maybe we need another prophetic voice crying, “In the wilderness, prepare the way of the Lord.”
Hi there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoOGCNTDo-g
Great article. I was a pastor in a baptist church or 17 years. I left the institutional church. I find in the Bible a simple church, without hierarchy. I live in South America, Argentina. There are many people that left the church to preserve their faith. I’m sorry for the people that can’t find God inside the 4 walls. Don´t let the Lord, find people who loves Him and loves you!!!!
Yep, it has almost been a year, and no one has addressed Dave’s questions (Oct. 2015) about the Old Testament Prophets and their call to what some see as ‘violence.’ God preserved the Old Testament for a reason; you can’t have the New without the Old and vice versa spiritually or naturally. Yes, I too am a ‘called out’ one since 2012, still working it out in 2016. So, Dave raised legitimate concerns, is or was there a response?
Thanks for bumping this Francis. I’ve just read this post and an also keen for the next installment. I value Jeremy’s thought out responses and well researched Bible studies. I suspect the answer is still being processed. It’s only recently that the whole idea of the violence of God has become a significant problem for me. Dave’s analysis is a well considered challenge that is an important part of this dialog.
Is it the violence of God in the Old Testament or is it the consequences of being estranged from God because of sin. God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked; He would rather they turn from their ways and live. Nevertheless, God is the righteous Judge; therefore, the unrepentant souls who sin will die, including Israel (Gen. 18:20-21; 15:16; Deut. 7; Ezekiel 18; John 8:24; 9:41; 1 John 3:8-10). God gave those who were destroyed ample warning and time to repent (Gen. 15:13-16). What happened in the OT is no different than what happens today. We send our sons and daughters to suit up for armed services to defend the U. S. of A. or other defenseless countries from the influences and ravages of moral depravity (wickedness); or our civil authorities who, by God’s design, arm themselves daily to keep order and peace, to avenge and bring retribution to wrongdoers (Rom. 13:1-7), and what about the restrictions we place on our children’s involvement with others who practice morally deviant behavior (1 Cor. 15:33). The root of evil is sin and the consequences of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life (Rom. 6:23). God is not maniacally killing anyone in the Old Testament, but is demonstrating the dire consequences of sin, the dire need for a Savior who has come, and the need for the indwelling power of His Spirit to transform the life so that living pleases God who is our righteousness, holiness, and redemption (Gen. 3:15; Gal. 5:19-23; 1 Thess. 4:3a; 1 Cor. 1:30). God wants us to choose life.
Thanks so much for the thoughts. It is a new era of Church growth that does not fit within the Brick and Mortar contex. When making statistical statement please approach it in a scholarly way via citing references from which the statistics were extracted. I know you gave a Josh Packard stat, however the citation should be included directly into the article for validation purposes.
Sometime though I think these are excuses for not putting in any effort. I mean they know God isn’t awful. They know you and I didn’t so those things. They know they could go to a different church. But sometimes I think they answer the excuse they tell themselves (or the devil tells them) so they have their permission to themselves to walk away. A reason to blame others for their own walking away.
I guess only the Lord knows the inner heart.
And I guess yes we have to give every single person on this earth the presupposition that they need and want to come to know God and they deep down do not want to ‘give up on meeting together’ Heb 10:25
This was refreshing. Consider myself to be someone who has left the Institutional church, maybe not because I felt the Father call me out of it, and because I was searching for more and it was something I couldn’t find in the church building. I visit a church sometimes but I still don’t consider it “my church” am part of a small group of believers and that is my “church” I definitely think there are a lot more people that have left the church because they too were searching for more, and it is something the Father is orchestrating. Anyway, just wanted to say I appreciate your view and even how to approach people that supposedly stopped following God, that they were in fact following Him and didn’t even know it.