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Hell on Earth

By Sam Riviera
10 Comments

Hell on Earth

Sam Riviera is a frequent and popular contributor to this blog. Many of his posts on loving your neighbors and ministering to the homeless are consistently among the most popular articles on this blog.

Based on his many years of friendship with lots of homeless people in San Diego, Sam Riviera has learned the stories of several of them, and, with their permission, is writing their stories in the form of letters to their dads. These are the letters that they might have written to their dads. Since it has been a while since Sam wrote one of these letters, you will want to go read the explanation about these letters here, and especially read the First Letter to Dad: Killing Me Softely, as the letter below follows on the events from that previous letter.

homeless teenager

Dad,

It’s been over a year now. I’m still alive. Sort of.

You have no idea what it’s been like for me the past year. You can’t even imagine it. This isn’t rural Georgia, the town where you and I were born. This is the United States of America, land of the sick and twisted. I know ‘em. You’ve never made their acquaintance. Pray you never do.

Hell. They talked about it in church. Where I am isn’t a lake of fire, but it might as well be. Hell can’t be much worse than this. Maybe this is really hell and the lake of fire thing with devils and pitchforks was invented by Dante and Hollywood.

I’m not sure why I’m writing you. I guess I want mom to know I’m alive, but will you tell her? I’d tell her myself after you’re dead and buried, but I doubt I’ll be alive by then. Get on your computer and look up the average life expectancy for a homeless teenager who is a drug addict who is regularly raped by dirty old men.

I’ve got a death sentence. You were the judge that handed it down. You convicted me without a trial, with no evidence. Even if what you were told was true, so what? I’m your son. I know you’re more concerned about what people think than you are about your own flesh and blood. I might as well have terminal cancer. At least then I might be able to get treatment. As it is, I have no hope.

Hard to imagine, but Jesus is here with me right in the middle of all this crap. I was hoping he’d rescue me somehow, but it’s not happened. Maybe it’s drug-induced hallucinations, but I don’t hallucinate about anything else. I see him walking the streets, and he sits and talks with me. The other guys say it’s just some guy, but I see something different. I know what I’m seeing. He told me only small children and a few older people see him for who he really is, and most people don’t notice him at all.

I asked him if he hangs out in churches. He laughed. He said he does, but not many notice or recognize him. He said he spends most of his time where he’s wanted and needed. Not like me. I’m not wanted, needed, or loved anywhere. I’m just a user and mostly just used.

Remember those baby birds in the nest by our front door when I was little? We watched the mother bird build the nest, then looked in after she laid the eggs. The babies were about a week old. One day the mother bird disappeared and never came back. The babies were dead by the next morning. Abandoned and soon dead. That’s going to be me. Except I’m more like the baby the mom kicked out of the nest. Something must have been wrong with it. That’s what you thought about me. But nothing was wrong with me. You were wrong. But you still kicked me out and it’s too late for me to survive. I’m cold and sick, starving and afraid, and so lonely lying here in the filth waiting to die.

I’m still a teenager. I didn’t miss my childhood, but I will miss being an adult, all because of you. Can you live with that?

Jason

letter to dad from homeless teenager

God is Redeeming Life Bible & Theology Topics: homeless, Letters to Dad, lgbt, Sam Riviera

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He’s better off dead if he’s gay

By Jeremy Myers
66 Comments

He’s better off dead if he’s gay

Below is the fourth letter in the series, “Letters To Dad.” They are written by Sam Riviera, and are based on the true stories of people he actually knows in real life.

Dad,

You probably thought you’d never hear from me again. Well, it’s me. I’m alive.

But now I’m somewhere where you can never find me or hurt me.

LGBT Homeless TEenThere’s a public library near here where I can get on the internet. I check Facebook. Sometimes I see your posts. I read that you found out I’m gay. Did you really say “He’s better off dead if he’s gay”? What is that supposed to mean? Is that some kind of threat? To your own flesh and blood? You want me dead? Seriously?

I didn’t have a choice to be born. I didn’t get to choose who my dad is. I also didn’t get to choose that I’m gay. Regardless of what you think, I didn’t choose any of those things.

I wasn’t kidnapped. I had been planning my escape for a long time. I had to get away from you. Why? You scare me. Actually, you terrify me. I figured sooner or later you were going to find out I’m gay. I had to get as far away from you as possible before that happened.

Now that I see what you wrote on Facebook, I’m glad I ran.

I didn’t want you trying to beat demons out of me. That’s what you said. “If I ever find out any kid of mine is gay, I’ll beat those demons out of them if it kills them.” You said that.

Seriously? You think I have demons in me? Why are you such an angry person? You need help.

homeless gay teenWhere did you learn this stuff, anyway? From those homophobic guys you work with? You know that some of them are gay, don’t you? Seriously, dad. Some of them are gay. Don’t you know that? You have gay neighbors and gay relatives and gay coworkers. Which of them are you going to beat the demons out of? That could get you some serious jail time.

You said the Bible says gay people are abominations and should be stoned. Nice. Is that supposed to be Christian love? Where did you learn that? That is sick. And frightening.

Anyway, not that you care, but I’m surviving. For now. I’ve hooked up with some other kids in similar situations. About half my group is gay. Some got thrown out by their parents when they came out. The rest of us took off before our parents found out so we wouldn’t get the crap beat out of us.

We live outdoors most of the time. We steal to survive. We panhandle. Some of us sell drugs. Some of us sell sex. Don’t be surprised. Stealing, begging, addiction, dealing drugs, selling sex, and being homeless is our lifestyle … chosen for us by our parents … by dads like you.

Oh, and add dead to that list. Our lifestyle makes for a short lifespan. Suicide, overdosing, disease, getting stabbed, shot or beaten to death, or dying from exposure on cold nights is our lifestyle.

I’m not really mad at you. I’m seriously afraid of you. Thinking about you hurts. You are my dad for God’s sake. How can you be like that? How could you sentence me to a life like this? You’re the one who made that choice. You chose. I didn’t. You cut me off. You threatened my life. You’re responsible for me being on this earth. You brought me here. Now you want me dead?

One of my group read online that kids like us have a lifespan of four or five years at most. Maybe I’ll beat those odds. Maybe not.

Seriously, Shaun

Homeless LGBT Stats

God is Redeeming Life Bible & Theology Topics: gay, homosexual, Letters to Dad, lgbt, Sam Riviera

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Letters to Dad

By Sam Riviera
5 Comments

Letters to Dad

Sam Riviera is a frequent and popular contributor to this blog. Many of his posts on loving your neighbors and ministering to the homeless are consistently among the most popular articles on this blog. As I type these very words, one of his articles about homeless people has received several thousand pageviews in just two days.

Based on his many years of friendship with lots of homeless people in San Diego, Sam Riviera has learned the stories of several of them, and, with their permission, is writing their stories in the form of letters to their dads. These are the letters that they might have written to their dads.

Letters to Dad

Below is a brief explanation of the purpose of these letters, and some links to resources for you to learn more and get involved.

What is the purpose of writing the Letters to Dad?

First of all, hopefully they will open the eyes of parents who are considering throwing out or abandoning their kids. Many parents do not know what life on the streets is going to be like for their kids. These letters will let them know.

Many of these children will survive by selling their bodies.

Many will become thieves.

Many will become addicts.

Some will never make it off the streets alive.

Secondly, hopefully they will open the eyes of those who follow Jesus to what is happening across America to homeless and runaway teens.

Can we allow this to continue?

Why are there so few temporary and even fewer long-term beds (shelters) for these kids? (The kids usually are not safe in adult shelters.)

Do we have anything to say to “Christian” parents who are about to or already have thrown out their kids because they’re gay, on drugs, having sex or doing other things the parents do not accept?

Religion and the Homeless

homeless youthOne tragic thing to note is that there is a significant relationship between religion and the homeless, runaway kids.

Conservative Christian parents tend to throw out kids who go against their religious beliefs. Often the kids run away before their parents figure out the kid is gay, pregnant, using, a thief, etc. The kids are often afraid of how their parents will react. Sometimes they’re embarrassed or ashamed. Almost always they don’t want to talk to their parents about the “problem.”

If You Are a Parent…

This series of letters is not intended to pile guilt on the parents of troubled teens. Instead, they hopefully serve as a reminder for all parents to:

  1. Tell your children often that you will always love them, no matter what, and that they can always come to you with anything.
  2. Do not judge the homeless person or drug addict we pass on the street. Some of them lived through hell at home before entering into the hell on the streets.

The Goal of this Series

I would love it if the series could open up the conversation nationwide and send kids and parents to those organizations that can help, regardless of where they are at in the continuum the letters will describe.

I would also love it if the series would result in more beds available nationwide for homeless and runaway kids in our country.

We believe in this cause, and have made provisions in our trust to fund homeless and runaway teen programs, especially those with dedicated beds. Maybe this series of letters will encourage others to do the same.

A List of all the “Letters to Dad”

  • Killing Me Softly With Your Jesus Songs
  • I’m the Ice Queen Now, and You’ll Never See Me Again
  • So far, I’m Not Doing Drugs
  • He’s Better off Dead if He’s Gay
  • Help! I’m Trapped!

More Resources about Troubled Teens

Although statistics vary, and probably no one knows the exact number of runaway and homeless youth in the USA who are living in the streets, alleys, canyons, beaches, parks, under bridges and any other place they can find, almost everyone agrees there are at least one million homeless and runaway kids in our country. This number does not include those who are “couch surfing”, living temporarily with friends.

The purpose of the “Letters to Dad” series is to tell the stories of a cross-section of these kids. Why are they homeless? Where are they sleeping? How are they surviving? What happens to them when they’re homeless? Why are they invisible to many of us? How can we help them survive and ultimately get off the street?

Below you will find links to numerous sites that give statistics and information about homeless and runaway youth, including programs that provide services to these kids. You may not agree with some of the beliefs shared on these links. We do not agree with all of them. They are here for your information. Explore them and use the information and resources you find useful.

stop youth homelessness

We will continue to add more links to information and resources as the series continues. If you are aware of sites with information or resource for homeless and runway youth, post the links in a comment on any of the “Letters to Dad.” We will review the sites and add the most helpful ones to the links below.

Some of these sites are Christian. Some are not. While we have reviewed each site, we have not read all of the thousands of posts and articles that can be accessed through these links. We cannot attest to the accuracy of the statistics these sites report. Remember, some of the information is statistical, based on the statistics gathered by that site. Some of the information is based on experience, interviews and opinion.

Statistics vary by location and when the statistics were gathered. At least one runaway and homeless teen program of which we are aware, for example, reports that their group usually consists of about 10% LGBTQ teens, while another program in another city reports that their group is usually about 60% LGBTQ. Gender, age, economic background, race and many other demographics vary widely in the homeless and runaway youth population, and vary by program and location. What do these kids have in common? They are trying to survive in difficult circumstances. Most of them do not have a place they can call home.

Links about Homelessness in America

  • Report by the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty
  • Homeless and Runaway Youth Fact Sheet and Report by The National Conference of State Legislatures
  • Fact Sheet about Homeless Teens
  • NRCDV Homeless Youth Toolkit
  • National Alliance to End Homelessness
  • Coalition for Homeless Youth
  • National Runaway Safeline

Information about Homeless Foster Youth Who Have Aged Out of the System

  • Resources for Teens Aging Out of the Foster Care System
  • Story and Resources for Teens Aging Out of the Foster Care System
  • Foster Kids and Homelessness
  • KPBS Report on Former Foster Kids in California
  • Children’s Rights Blog
  • California organization providing life skills training for foster kids aging out of the system

Facts about LGBT Homeless Youth and Related LGBT Resources

  • LGBT Homeless Info. and Resources
  • “LGBT Youth, An Epidemic of Homelessness”, report
  • Article about Homeless Gay Teens from Religious Families
  • Numerous resources for LGBT teens and their families from a progressive Christian blog for families with gay children

God is Redeeming Life Bible & Theology Topics: homeless, Letters to Dad, lgbt, Sam Riviera

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Two Men in one Bed (Luke 17:34)

By Jeremy Myers
154 Comments

Two Men in one Bed (Luke 17:34)
Note: This post is part of the July 2015 Synchroblog.

In the past, I have taught that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality.

But a few weeks ago, after the Supreme Court of the United Stated ruled that gay couples could get legally married, a guy came up to me and said, “This ruling is a sign of the end of the world! Jesus prophesied in Luke 17:34 that when the rapture happens, there will be two men in a bed!”

I went on to show him that in the Greek, the word “men” is not actually there, so all it really says is “There will be two in one bed …”

And besides, there is some question about whether Luke 17 is even referring to the rapture.

Jesus teaching Luke 17:34But even if the text is referring to a gay couple in bed, and even if the text does teach about the rapture, I pointed out to him that one of the men was taken in the rapture, which means that apparently, God accepted him.

He apparently hadn’t though about this … and so started back-peddling a bit from this text.

But I decided to look into Luke 17:34 a bit more deeply.

Is it just two people in a bed?

As I pointed out to the end-of-the-world alarmist, the word “men” is not in Luke 17:34. The text literally reads:

In that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.

But then I noticed that in the context, our English translations go on in Luke 17:35 to record Jesus talking about two women grinding at the mill. I looked briefly at the Greek here as well, and noticed that the word “women” was not in Luke 17:35, just as the word “men” was not in Luke 17:34. Note that the word “mill” is not in the text either. Luke 17:35 literally says this:

Two will be grinding together; one will be taken and the other left.

So I asked myself, “What am I missing? Why do many English translators supply the word “men” in Luke 17:34 and “women” in Luke 17:35 when neither word is there? So I looked at the verses a little more carefully, and noticed that other words in Luke 17:34-35 revealed the gender of the people in question.

When Luke 17:34 says, “one will be taken and the other left,” the words “one” and “other” are both masculine. By itself, this might not mean that the two people were men, for Greek (as in most languages) can use male words and pronouns to refer generically to “people” whether they are male or female.

But Luke 17:35 is much more clear. When this verse says, “one will be taken and the other left,” the words “one” and “other” are both feminine. A feminine pronouns are only used of women.

So when you compare Luke 17:34 and Luke 17:35, and Luke 17:35 is clearly referring to two women, then it seems pretty clear that Luke 17:34 is referring to two women. The burden of proof lies on those who want to say that Luke 17:35 refers to women while Luke 17:34 refers generically to “people.”

But so what?

Just because two men are in one bed, this doesn’t mean they’re gay.

This is very true.

While rare, it is not completely unheard of for two straight men to share one bed today. They might share a bed for warmth, or for protection, or simply because there is a lack of bed space.

This is especially true of men in ancient Middle-Eastern cultures. Unlike most modern Western males, I read in various sources that men of the Ancient Near East didn’t feel “weirded out” by sharing a bed with another man.

But then I started studying the context further.

One source that really provided some background details for my study was a series of blog posts by Ron Goetz on gays and lesbians in Luke. What follows below is a brief summary of his arguments.

NOTE: I am not saying I agree with Ron Goetz. All I am doing is summarizing his research. I would like your opinion on what he argues, and would like your thoughts about whether or not Jesus does, in fact, mention homosexual couples in Luke 17:34-35, and what this means (if anything) for the debate today about Same-Sex Marriage.

Gay Sex in Luke 17:34-35

Below is a small sampling of what Ron Goetz argues regarding two same-sex couples in Luke 17. Before you criticize what he says, I strongly urge you to go read through his entire series of posts, as it is likely that he has already responded to your question or criticism.

The summary/extended quote from Ron Goetz begins below…

I tell you, in that night,
there shall be two men in one bed;
the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together;
the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(Luke 17:34-35, KJV)

The Context of Sodom

Sodom and GomorrahImmediately before the mention of two men in one bed is a lengthy discussion of the destruction of Sodom. Now I don’t believe the sin of Sodom was homosexuality. But there are many today who believe that it was, and I think most of the Jewish believers in Luke’s audience may have believed it as well.

Jesus knew that by recounting key details of Sodom’s destruction, his audience would have man-on-man sex on its mind. Jesus intended for us to understand that the “two men in one bed” were gay.

One key practice for interpreting a passage in the Greek scriptures is to look for its antecedents in the Old Testament.

I’ve only found two Old Testament references to two men laying together.

“Thou shalt not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination” (Leviticus 18:22).

“If a man lie with a man, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” (Leviticus 20:13).

By clearly alluding to the Levitical prohibitions against male homosexuality, followed immediately with his declaration that “one shall be taken, and the other left,” Jesus declared his own acceptance of gays and lesbians, and that gays and lesbians are not automatically rejected by God.

Whether or not you believe in this final separation, or whether or not you believe the Bible, doesn’t matter with regard to the significance of the passage. What is important is that Luke 17:34-35 teaches that sexually active gays and lesbians are not automatically consigned to perdition.

Two Women Grinding Together

In the Hebrew Bible, “grind” is used as an acceptable euphemism for sexual intercourse in at least four places: Job 31:10, Judges 16:21, Isaiah 47:2-3, and Lamentations 5:13.

[Yet] It seems shocking that Jesus would use what sounds to us today like gutter language when referring to lesbian love-making. The idea of Jesus uttering the words “women grinding together” can be very uncomfortable. It certainly was for me. Even though the Old Testament evidence confirmed my hypothesis, it was difficult for me to hear that language coming from the mouth of Christ.

But when you remember that there is earthy language throughout the Bible, in both testaments, we get an understanding that the church’s demand for regal, solemn, respectable language is not a Biblical demand. Our personal and cultural expectations are not necessarily in sync with the scriptures. What sounds like earthy language today were, generally speaking, acceptable Biblical euphemisms.

Solomon’s love poem, the Song of Songs, is well known for its graphic descriptions of romantic love. First century Israel did not have the clinical, scientific nomenclature for sexual matters that we have today, but they did have acceptable ways to discuss these things among adults.

No, Jesus Christ was not using gutter language when he mentions “two women grinding together.” The Old Testament books of Job, Judges, and Lamentations contain the Biblical use of the metaphorical grind. Jesus used the ordinary, acceptable language of his day to refer to lesbian love-making.

[But it is not just a couple of Old Testament texts that use “grind” in this way.]

In Latin, the word “grind,” and the related word “mill,” are both euphemisms for things sexual. The Roman poet Horace (65 to 8 BCE) used “grind” in his endorsement of brothels. Writing in Latin just decades before the birth of Christ, [one author] says that

Once, when a noble left a brothel, “Blessed be thou for thy virtue!” quoth the wisdom of Cato: “for when their veins are swelling with gross lust, young men should drop in there, rather than grind some husband’s private mill.”

His use of both “grind” and “mill” shows that even the presence of the word “mill” does not eliminate the possibility of sexual meanings in the word “grind.” Horace’s usage is very significant because it is proof of the use of “grind” as a euphemism for sexual intercourse in the Roman empire just a few decades before the birth of Christ.

[Such euphemisms are also found in Greek.]

Sapphos from LesbosPlutarch (ca A.D. 45 to 120) was born in Greece near Delphi, and was a contemporary of Luke. One of Plutarch’s s, “The Banquet of Seven Wise Men,” is a fictional conversation among some famous men who lived around 650 BCE. After a brief lull in the conversation, Thales of Miletus speaks:

This remark arrested the attention of the whole company, and Thales said jestingly…. “when I was at Lesbos, I heard my landlady, as she was very busy at her handmill, singing as she used to go at her work:

Grind, mill, grind;
For even Pittacus grinds,
King of great Mytilene.

Plutarch records “grind” used as a sexual metaphor in the last quarter of the first century A.D., overlapping the probable years when Luke was composed.

The sexual meanings of “grind” and “mill” were common in Greek society when Luke being composed, and could have been in common usage for as long as 700 years prior to that. There is no room for quibbling over whether or not “grind” and “mill” were used sexually in the Greek language of the first century, and that this layer of meaning was familiar to literate Greeks.

The Lightning and the Eagle

Zeus and GanymedeA major piece of evidence supporting the thesis of a deliberate gay theme in Luke’s Small Apocalypse (which I call “Luke’s Gay Apocalypse”) is found in the two primary symbols of Zeus, the supreme god in Roman religion. The symbols of Zeus are the lightning bolt and the eagle, and they appear in Luke 17:24, 37.

I subsequently investigated the Luke 17 passage specifically as the “Q Apocalypse,” and was blessed to find a terrific resource, “Where the Eagles are Gathered”: The Deliverance of the Elect in Lukan Eschatology, by Steven L. Bridge (2003), who connects the lightning and the eagles with Zeus and Ganymede.

The lightning bolt was Zeus’ powerful weapon, and the eagle was sent to retrieve the bolts after Zeus had thrown them. One of the most popular and enduring stories involving the eagle describes the Abduction of Ganymede. According to the story, the King of Troy had a beautiful son named Ganymede, and Zeus found Ganymede irresistibly attractive.

Zeus and GanymedeAccording to the story, the attractive young Ganymede is abducted by an eagle, who in one version is Zeus himself, having transformed himself into an eagle. While the story had several uses (as a paradigm for imperialism and an allegory for Truth), in the Roman era the sexual nature of Ganymede’s relationship with Zeus was widely recognized.

Zeus had numerous liaisons with mortal women, but only one same-sex relationship, and the eagle is vividly associated with his romantic relationship with Ganymede. Just as the donkey reminds Christians of the Nativity and the Triumphal Entry, so also the eagle reminded Romans and Roman subjects of Zeus’ sexual relationship with his cup bearer and servant, Ganymede. The story of Zeus and Ganymede adds a layer of sexual meaning and interest to the eagle’s image which is missing from its common use as a symbol of power.

Zeus and Ganymede What we have here are the two chief symbols of Zeus, lightning and eagles, one of which is vividly associated with Zeus’ same-sex relationship with Ganymede, located at the beginning and end of a discrete unit of the third gospel, Luke’s Small Apocalypse. That distance between the verses may seem great, and this distance has obscured their historical and cultural connection. But these were the symbols of Zeus. If we were to read a paragraph that opened with a mention of a “crown of thorns” and ended with a “cross,” no one would doubt that the crucifixion was a central element in that paragraph.

Anywhere in the Roman Empire, someone reading Luke 17:20-37 would immediately recognize Zeus and Ganymede in Luke 17:24, 37.

So are Gay People Accepted by God or not?

The upshot of all this? Once we recognize the common thread running through the major elements of the passage–Zeus and Ganymede, Sodom, and the gay and lesbian couples–the entire passage coheres as a unified whole. Not only do the major elements of the passage become related in a single theme, but several unresolved interpretive questions fall into place as well.

The general topic or theme of the passage is indeed judgment, but the examples Jesus uses to illustrate the enactment of judgment don’t tell us what is worthy of judgment, but what is not worthy of judgment.

And this is one very accurate way of describing the purpose of the passage. We’ve never quite known what the basis of acceptability was for the favored members of these pairs. We have surmised that they have an unspoken relationship with God, that they have faith, that they have remained awake and watchful and kept their lamps trimmed, but the passage has forced us to guess what the difference is between those who are taken and those who are left.

That puzzled guessing is understandable, because the point of the passage never has been to tell us the difference between who is acceptable to God and who is unacceptable. The point has been to tell us that homosexuality is not a factor in a person’s acceptability to God.

People’s sexual orientation is not among the criteria for whether they’re in or whether they’re out.

Luke’s Gay Apocalypse, with the romantically involved gays and lesbians and the gathering of the Eagles around the Body of Christ, tells both Jews and Roman gentiles the “moral of the story.” It is this:

  • Non-Celibate Gays and Lesbians are not Rejected by God.
  • Homosexuality is Not a Criterion of Acceptability for God.
  • Lesbians and Gays are Present in the Final Eschatological Gathering of God’s Elect.

Just because the word “homosexual” doesn’t appear in the gospels doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t talk about it. He did talk about homosexuality, using concrete terms similar to those in the Hebrew scriptures.

I tell you, in that night,
there shall be two men in one bed;
the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together;
the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(Luke 17:34-35, KJV)

Jesus discussed homosexuals in precisely the way we would expect him to, not in abstract terms, but using concrete examples.

The post above was part of the 2015 Sychroblog on Gay Marriage. Below are posts from other bloggers who also contributed. Go read them all to see what they have to say!

  • Justin Steckbauer – Gay Marriage, LGBTQ Issues, and the Christian Worldview
  • Leah Sophia – Marriage Equality Again
  • Tony Ijeh – Thoughts on Gay Marriage
  • Tim Nichols – Imago Dei: Loving the Different
  • Carlos Shelton – About Gay Marriage
  • Wesley Rostoll – Some Things to Consider Regarding Gay Marriage
  • K. W. Leslie – Same-sex Marriage
  • Paul W. Meier – Gay Marriage: Love is the Narrow Gate
  • Tara – Justice for All
  • Michelle Torigian – Marriage Equality: The Constantly Expanding Love of God
  • Lifewalk Blog – Here I am
  • Mary – A Recovering Evangelical Writes about Homosexuality
  • Liz – Same Sex Marriage Stuff: Part 1
  • Loveday – Gay Marriage in Africa, USA, and the World
  • Jea7587 – Loving Your Gay Neighbor, Part 2
  • D. L. Webster – Questions of Interacting with Differing Beliefs

God is Redeeming Life, Redeeming Scripture Bible & Theology Topics: Bible Study, gay marriage, homosexual, homosexuality, Jesus, lgbt, Luke 17:34-35

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Let the gay marriage games begin!

By Jeremy Myers
28 Comments

Let the gay marriage games begin!

In light of the ruling from the Supreme Court about Gay Marriage, I knew it wouldn’t be long before:

  1. The name-calling and back-stabbing among Christians got worse (not better),
  2. Lawsuits began to fly between the right of gay people to get married and the right of certain religious people to not marry them
  3. A continued attempt by some to redefine (further) what constitutes a “marriage.”

gay marriageI just didn’t think it would all happen so quickly… But I was wrong.

Christian name-calling over Gay Marriage

Calvinistic Pastor Kevin DeYoung wrote a post that went viral which used the “When did you stop beating your wife?” approach to ask 40 questions to Christians who support gay marriage.

In response, John Shore wrote a post of his own, showing that when it comes to asking loaded questions that imply guilt before they are even asked, two can play that game.

I laughed more when I read John Shore’s post, so … he wins.

Edit: At the recommendation from one of the comments, I read Susan Cottrell’s 40 answers to the 40 questions. She makes excellent points. Go read it.

Both bloggers were pretty tame when it came to name-calling, but expect this sort of back-and-forth rhetoric to continue by all sides of this debate, with the name-calling and finger-pointing only getting more and more angry and ugly.

This shows once again how well we Christians have learned to “Be one” (John 17:21).

Lawsuits: Gay Marriage vs. Religious Freedom

A Christian county clerk in Kentucky has refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. She cited her religious beliefs as the motivating reason for her actions. Two gay couples have filed a lawsuit. I suspect she will lose that lawsuit, because issuing a license in her capacity as a county clerk is quite different from whether she herself believes that gay people should be able to get married.

If she feels it is wrong for gay people to get married, she has the religious freedom to believe this. But as a person who holds a public office, she needs to follow the law and issue the marriage licenses. If she is unable to do this in good conscience, that is fine also, but in that case, she should quit her job because she is unable to carry it out.

The REAL issue is going to happen when a gay couple, who has been issued a marriage license, approaches a prominent pastor and asks him to perform the wedding, and he refuses. Will the gay couple sue? Maybe. Maybe not. If they do, will religious freedom win out, or will the right of gay couples to get married win the day? I suspect that in this case, religious freedom will win, but it all pretty much depends on how the pastor handles himself.

Remember, many pastors during the Civil Rights movement refused to let black people into their churches on the basis of the “religious belief” that black people were inferior. In such cases, the laws of the land won out over religious freedom (and rightly so, in my opinion).

It will be interesting to see how these court cases play out… but no matter what happens, we expect to see more vitriol from all sides of the debate…

What exactly is a “marriage”?

Nathan Collier 2 wivesIn the wake of the Supreme Court basically saying that two people can get married if they love each other, even if they are of the same sex, a Montana man and his two wives have requested to get legally married. He plans to sue the state if he is denied. And if he loses there, he might even end up in the Supreme Court.

It will be interesting to see if all those in favor of Gay marriage will use the same arguments to support a marriage between three people. Or four? Or twenty?

Hmmm … I wonder what sort of tax-break a “marriage” would get from the IRS if the marriage consisted of 100 people? It wouldn’t be “filing jointly” anymore … but “filing grouply” or “filing crowdly.” And imagine how many kids that family would have! There could be hundreds! The IRS would be paying them tens of thousands of dollars a year in “Earned Income Credit.” This could be a really good job.

I have heard some Christians argue that this “redefinition” of marriage will result in further redefinition (as with Nathan Collier). They could be right. The more alarmist groups say that it won’t be long before marriage is allowed between a man and an underage daughter, or a man and his dog. This is ridiculous, of course. Neither animals nor underage children are considered consensual adults.

But, I see no logical reason at this point for the courts to deny Nathan Collier to get legally married to two wives…

So … am I FOR or AGAINST Gay Marriage?

Some readers of this blog have criticized me in the past for appearing to support gay marriage. I have never come out in actual support of it. At the same time, I have never spoken against it. And I am not doing so here either. If you are curious what Jesus said about homosexuality, you can read that here…

I also really liked Chuck McKnight’s stance on the gay marriage ruling. Go read his post and let me know what you think.

So what exactly am I saying?

The only thing I am really saying in this post is this: “I knew all this was coming, but WOW that was fast!”

God is Redeeming Life Bible & Theology Topics: gay marriage, homosexuality, lgbt, marriage

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