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A Theological Shibboleth about the Violence of God

By Jeremy Myers
66 Comments

A Theological Shibboleth about the Violence of God

shibbolethDo you know what a Shibboleth is? You might have heard the term and not known where it comes from…

In modern usage, a shibboleth is an idea, practice, belief, or custom which differentiates one group of people from another. So, for example, if you wanted to know whether someone was politically conservative or liberal, you could maybe ask them about global warming. If they thought global warming is a hoax, they are probably conservative. If they think global warming is irrefutable science, they are probably liberal. In this case, the “shibboleth” is the issue of global warming.

The origins of the word “shibboleth” come from Judges 12:5-6 when there was a war between the people of Gilead and Ephraim. The soldiers of Gilead set up a little checkpoint at a river crossing and whenever a man tried to cross, the soldiers would ask them to say “Shibboleth.” Why? Because the people of Gilead said “Shibboleth” and the people of Ephraim said “Sibboleth” (because they could not pronounce the Sh). If the soldier said, “I am from Gilead” but then could not pronounce “Shibboleth” and instead said, “Sibboleth” then the soldiers of Gilead would know the man was lying and would kill him.

Anyway, that is the origin of the word Shibboleth.

I recently stumbled across a theological Shibboleth regarding the violence of God in the Bible. Almost everybody claims to believe that God is love, that Jesus reveals God to us, and that God does nothing but that which is merciful, kind, and gracious. And yet there are vast numbers of Christians who believe that God commands people to slaughter others, that God drowned people in a flood, and that God is the one who killed His own Son on the cross to appease His own wrath and anger against human sin.

Yesterday I was reading the Gospel of Luke and read Luke 12:5. I did a double-take on the verse because while the pronouns are capitalized in the Bible I was reading, it sure seemed to me that Jesus was not talking about God, but about Satan. Here is the verse (without capitalization):

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear him!

The shibboleth is this: Is Jesus talking about God or Satan in Luke 12:5?

If you check most modern commentaries, they will tell you that Jesus is talking about God. Some argue that the verse refers to Satan. During the first 300 years of the church, it was almost exactly opposite. Many of the early church fathers believed Jesus was talking about Satan, but a few thought He was referring to God.

But what do you think? In Luke 12:5, is Jesus talking about God or Satan?

In the comments below, please feel free to state you opinion, and then also state why you believe what you do about Luke 12:5. And I promise, that whether you answer “God” or “Satan” (Shibboleth or Sibboleth), nobody is going to kill you!

Whose name tag goes on that verse?

God or Satan Luke 12 5

I guess I’ll start…

I used to think Jesus was talking about God, but in the last couple years, my theology has changed enough so that I now think Jesus was talking about Satan.

After all, why would Jesus say that God kills when He later says that it is the thief who comes to steal, kill, and destroy (John 10:10)? Why are we called to fear God when John tells us that there is no fear in love for perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18)? And is it really God who casts people into hell, or is He rather working to rescue people from hell?

2017 UPDATE: After further study and discussion with people in the RedeemingGod.com discipleship group, it is interesting to note that the word for “hell” is Gehenna, which is the smoking trash valley outside of Jerusalem, and the word for “destroy” is appolumi, which is used in Matthew 10:6 in reference to the “lost” sheep of Israel, and then also in 10:39 (cf. 16:25) when Jesus says if you “lose” your life for his sake, you will find it. So other forms of the word can refer to “lose” or “lost.” Notice later that the Jewish leaders plot how they might “destroy” Jesus (Matt 12:14; 27:20). This sort of seems to indicate that other human beings might be in view … but if so, Jesus would be saying “Don’t fear human beings who can take your life, but do fear human beings who can cast you into the burning trash pile outside of the city.” How does this make sense?

Maybe the key is the word “soul” (psuche) in the context, which is not the “eternal principle of a person” but is instead the “life.” That is, your “life” here on earth. Who is it that can destroy your body AND your life by sending you out into the burning trash pile? Only one group: The religious leaders. They often sent people to live in Gehenna. It was one of the places where lepers and outcasts were sent. But how is this worse than being killed?

We have two contrasts here:

body (sarx) vs. life (psuche)
kill (apokteino) vs. destroy (appolumi)

2021 update: I address this text here, and provide my current beliefs about Luke 12:5 and Matthew 10:28

God is Redeeming Scripture Bible & Theology Topics: gehenna, hell, Luke 12:5, Matthew 10:28, Theology of God, violence of God

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Is God Angry at Us? Kind of…

By Jeremy Myers
33 Comments

Is God Angry at Us? Kind of…

After I wrote my post about we human commit evil and then blame God for it, I found this image online. I laughed because it’s true. If God is angry at us, He is angry because we Christians keep blaming Him for everything that goes wrong in the world.

blaming God

God is Redeeming Theology Bible & Theology Topics: blaming God, Discipleship, humor, laugh, violence of God

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Did God Drown the Egyptian Army?

By Jeremy Myers
57 Comments

Did God Drown the Egyptian Army?

The following post contains a proposal about how to understand the violence of God in drowning the Egyptian army. I am publishing it for your input and feedback. I think that maybe what I have presented is a bit of a stretch, but if I am going to maintain some bit of sense of the inerrancy of this text, I can see no other way of reading about the drowning of the Egyptian army in Exodus 14 through the lens of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for His enemies.

In other words, the question I am trying to answer in this post is this: “Why would Jesus die for His enemies on the cross, but God drowns the enemies of Israel in the Red Sea?” Doesn’t something seem “wrong” in that picture? It does to me… This is my attempt to provide a solution…

Please provide your input in the comment section below….

drowning Egyptian Army in Red Sea


One almost feels bad for Pharaoh.

After experiencing the crushing humiliation of the ten plagues which culminated in the anguishing loss of his firstborn son, Pharaoh damages the economy and productivity of Egypt by finally allowing the Israelites to leave Egypt, only to change his mind and chase after them in hot pursuit, which leads to the decimation of his army in the Red Sea.

If there is any lesson at all in the sad tale of Pharaoh in Exodus 1–14, it is that pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall (Proverbs 16:18).

Nevertheless, it seems from various clues in Exodus and other texts in Scripture dealing with the Israelite exodus from Egypt that it was never God’s intention to break Pharaoh or destroy Egypt. Instead, God wanted Pharaoh to recognize His sovereignty over all things.

If at any time during the ten plagues, Pharaoh had submitted to the will of God and let the Israelites go, the nation of Egypt would not have suffered the way it did. Although it is a popular Christian teaching to say that God sent the plagues with the express purpose of hardening Pharaoh’s heart so that God could destroy Pharaoh and the Egyptian army, this way of reading the exodus event is probably not the best and does not reflect the heart and love of Jesus (See Forster and Marston, God’s Strategy in Human History, 63-69).

Despite God’s warnings to Pharaoh and repeated signs that God wanted Pharaoh to let the Israelites go, Pharaoh continued to disregard God’s warnings and rush headlong toward his own destruction.

This is not only seen in the events of the ten plagues, but also when Pharaoh’s army drowned in the Red Sea.

The Drowning of Pharaoh’s Army in the Red Sea

There is something quite strange about the drowning of Pharaoh’s army which needs to be pointed out as we seek to understand the violent descriptions of God in the Old Testament in light of Jesus Christ.

While few would consider the drowning of Pharaoh’s army one of the more violent actions of God in the Bible—for didn’t Pharaoh bring this destruction upon himself?—there are a couple things in the text which helps us understand God’s involvement in human violence.

God’s Power over Chaos

First, it is important to remember that from an Old Testament Hebrew perspective, the forces of rebellion and chaos arrayed against God were often identified with the sea, and especially with the storms and waves that often rage across the sea. This concept was considered in previous posts as part of the discussion of the flood.

So once again, just as the ten plagues put on display the power by God over the impotence of the various Egyptian deities, so also, the crossing of the Israelites through the waters of the Red Sea showed that God even had dominion and power over the threats of chaos, storms, and destruction that were identified with the sea.

The parting of the Red Sea is not just a miracle to give to the Israelites a path through the waters of death and destruction, but is primarily intended to show the Israelites that not even the raging gods of chaos and destruction can overcome God’s hand of protection over the Israelites.

However, this does not mean that God’s hand of protection is without limits.

The Limits to God’s Control

The entrance of the Egyptian army into the path through the Red Sea demonstrates that if a group of people persists in rebelling against God, there comes a time when not even God can hold back the consequences of such rebellion.

Destructive decisions must eventually lead to destruction, even though God has pled with people to turn back and warned them about where their decisions will lead.

Pharaoh had been warned ten times already to let God’s people go, yet by sending his army after Israel, Pharaoh revealed that he still had not learned. He still could not let go. He still persisted in rebellion against God. The Red Sea crossing was not a trap set by God for Pharaoh, but was a form of deliverance for God’s people Israel, and Egypt, in their rebellion, tried to use God’s protection as a method by which to destroy.

As a result, destruction came upon Egypt instead.

God’s Attempt to Deliver Egypt

But it is critical to note that even prior to destruction falling upon the Egyptian army, God attempted to deliver and turn the army back so as to avoid the devastating consequences of their sin.

Red Sea Egyptian ArmyIn Exodus 14:24-25, after the Egyptian army had followed the Israelites into the Red Sea, the text says that God sought to turn the Egyptian army back by bringing trouble upon them. He caused the chariot wheels to fall off, and brought confusion among the ranks.

It appears that through such actions, God was trying to non-violently warn the Egyptian army that destruction was about to fall upon their heads, and they should turn back while they still had time. The Egyptian army received the message loud and clear, and in fact, did attempt to turn back. Exodus 14:25 says that they sought to flee from the face of Israel. They stopped pursuing Israel through the Red Sea and turned back toward the shore from which they had come.

Yet the text takes a troubling turn at this point. One would think that if God was bringing troubles upon the Egyptian army so that they would turn back, that once they did turn back He would let them escape the Red Sea and live. The point was to deliver Israel; not destroy Egypt. And once the Egyptian army turned back, as the text says they did, what reason could God have for drowning the Egyptian army?

And yet that seems to be what occurs in Exodus 14:26. Just as the Egyptians were seeking to flee from the sea (cf. Exodus 14:27), the text says that God instructed Moses to stretch out his hand over the waters so that they might collapse back down upon the army. And so all the horses and men of Pharaoh’s army drowned beneath the waves (Exodus 14:30).

This confusing and somewhat contradictory series of events seems to indicate something going on behind the scenes, which is not fully evident in the text itself.

Behind the Scenes of the Drowning of the Egyptian Army

It seems that while God’s protection was upon Israel, this protection did not extend to the Egyptian army because of their continued refusal to heed God’s warnings and submit to God’s sovereignty.

As such, the Egyptians were in rebellion against God and had departed from God’s hand of protection. Through the use of the pillar of cloud and fire and by causing confusion among the army ranks when the chariot wheels fell off, God continued to try to keep the army out of the danger of drowning in the Red Sea.

But once Israel had passed fully through the Red Sea, the forces of chaos and destruction could no longer be held back, and they swept away the Egyptian army into death.

But What About God’s Command to Moses in Exodus 14:26?

The command of God to Moses in Exodus 14:26 to allow the waters to fall back upon the heads of the Egyptians can be understood as God taking the blame for that which He did not prevent.

Though God repeatedly warned the Egyptians about their rebellion and tried to get the Egyptians to turn back from the Red Sea crossing, they responded too late and destruction fell upon them, just as it had in the tenth plague.

In Exodus 14:26-31, God takes the blame for this event and bears responsibility for it because it is something that happened on His watch and seemingly by the hand of His prophet, Moses. But really, the fault lies with the Egyptians, and specifically with Pharaoh, who consistently and rebelliously walked in the way of destruction.

“Having cast off every God-given opportunity to repent, Egypt under Pharaoh succumbed fully to the destroyer’s jurisdiction” (Campbell, Light through the Darkness, 72).

God’s Involvement in Drowning the Egyptian Army

God’s action in the miraculous Red Sea crossing was not in drowning the Egyptian army, but in holding back the waters for Israel as they passed through on dry land.

God’s actions were for deliverance and protection first from the invading army and second from the drowning waters. Though God did not desire that the Egyptian army be killed, their refusal to repent and refusal to abide by their promise to let Israel go meant that they had departed from God’s hand of protection.

So once the Egyptian army stepped foot into the Red Sea, God was not able to hold back the waters any longer. Due to their sin and rebellion, the Egyptian army was no longer under God’s jurisdiction, but was under that of the destroyer.

The waves of chaos and the forces of the sea swept over the Egyptian army and carried them down into death. The destroyer destroyed the Egyptian army; not God.

What are your thoughts on the drowning of the Egyptian army in Exodus 14? Did God really do it? If so, how do you reconcile the enemy-loving, self-sacrificing Jesus with the enemy-drowning, vengeful God of Exodus 14? 

God of the Old Testament and JesusHow can a God who says "Love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44) be the same God who instructs His people in the Old Testament to kill their enemies?

These are the sorts of questions we discuss and (try to) answer in my online discipleship group. Members of the group can also take ALL of my online courses (Valued at over $1000) at no charge. Learn more here: Join the RedeemingGod.com Discipleship Group I can't wait to hear what you have to say, and how we can help you better understand God and learn to live like Him in this world!

God is Redeeming Theology Bible & Theology Topics: Egyptian army, Exodus 14, Theology of God, violence of God, When God Pled Guilty

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Drunk with Blood: God’s Killings in the Bible

By Jeremy Myers
33 Comments

Drunk with Blood: God’s Killings in the Bible

Drunk with BloodAs I continue to write on how to understand the violence of God in the Old Testament, I am always shocked whenever I run into a Christian who thinks the Bible isn’t violent. I want to ask them if they have read anything outside of the New Testament (Even then, you have the book of Revelation and various teachings on hell).

One of the reasons is it is so critical to not only own up to the violence of Scripture, but also to have an answer for it, is because the violence of God in the Bible is one of the main reasons people today are rejecting Christianity and denying the existence of a good and loving God.

So if you happen to be a Christian who doesn’t know the Bible is violent, OR if you happen to think the violence of God in the Bible is “no big deal,” let me invite you to read  Drunk With Blood by Steve Wells. If you are a fundamentalist Christian, you will probably be offended at the humorous approach Steve Wells takes in his book, Drunk With Blood, by pointing out all the violence of Scripture, but I think that humor is the only way to write a 300-page book detailing all the violence in the Christian Scriptures. If the book didn’t contain humor, by the time we were done reading about all the killings in the Bible, most of us would want to kill ourselves as well. Without the humor, it’s depressing reading.

As for myself, I thoroughly enjoyed the book. I have read lists of the violence in Scripture before, but never one so detailed, so thorough, and so entertaining.

I personally don’t think Steve was “fair” with all of the biblical accounts of violence, since he often cuts off quotations in mid-sentence, but with all the clear “unfairness” in Scripture where actual human lives are getting “cut off” by God, it’s hard to quibble over minor details like that.

Look, if you want to know how the Bible looks to someone who doesn’t read the Bible through “Christian-colored” glasses, you must read this book. And if you want to know why Christians are often seen as hypocritical and violent, it is because we defend the actions in the Bible as “holy and just” while condemning identical behavior in people of other religions.

As a Christian myself, I believe Drunk With Blood should be mandatory reading for all Christians. 

And hey! Bill Maher recommends it too:

Drunk with Blood

Drunk With Blood shows us what we Christians don’t want to admit, that God is violent! The sooner we own up to this fact, the sooner we can start dealing with it honestly, and trying to understand the Old Testament violence of God in light of Jesus Christ dying on the cross.

God is Uncategorized Bible & Theology Topics: Bill Maher, books, Books I'm Reading, violence of God, When God Pled Guilty

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Redoing My Theology

By Jeremy Myers
22 Comments

Redoing My Theology

I realized the other day why I am having such a struggle writing this book on the violence of God in the Old Testament.

The reason is because the process of grappling with this issue is requiring me to rethink, rewrite, and redo nearly all of my theology. I feel like I am starting all over from the very beginning.

redoing my theology

So far, my study of the violence of God has caused me to rethink these areas of theology:

  • Theology Proper – this one is a given. I am trying to write about God, after all.
  • Bibliology – I have had to raise questions about inspiration and inerrancy
  • Pneumatology – My study of inspiration led me to look deeper into the Spirit’s role in the world and throughout history, especially as a revealer of truth.
  • Christology – I have had to learn to refocus all my theology upon the cross of Jesus Christ, and have come to see Jesus as the center of God’s revelation, the lens by which Scripture is read, and truly the “image of the invisible God.”
  • Soteriology – If God is nonviolent, then what does this say about the violence within the penal substitutionary view of the atonement? Also, what about the eternal violence of hell? I am grappling with both these issues.
  • Ecclesiology – If God is not violent, then what does this mean for the church’s place in the world, especially regarding war and patriotism? Also, what does it mean to follow Jesus nonviolently?
  • Eschatology – Not only do I have to rethink hell (mentioned above), but all my beliefs about the End Times as well. If God is non violent, will the Second Coming of Jesus truly be with violence?
  • Anthropology – My study of nonviolence has required me to realize that if violence does not come at the command of God, then it must come from the heart of man. This raises serious questions about the condition of humanity in general.
  • Angelology – The study of violence has led into deep reading and thinking about the dominions, powers, and authorities of this world, and how these things are related to the destroyer, satan, and demons, and violence in general.

This is why I feel so overwhelmed all the time with this project! It often feels like the ground has opened up beneath me, like all my reading, study, and learning up to this point has been for nothing, and that I am beginning all over again.

your theology might be wrong

So thanks for being patient with me as I “think out loud” on this blog, and as my writing projects get posted in bits and pieces, and as some posts seem to contradict something I wrote earlier. We’re all thinking about this together, and I appreciate your input and you being willing to walk with me through these questions!

God is Uncategorized Bible & Theology Topics: Theology - General, violence of God, When God Pled Guilty

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