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The Flood According to Job 22:15-18

By Jeremy Myers
10 Comments

The Flood According to Job 22:15-18

I am finally returning to my series on the violence of God in Scripture. We left off in the middle of a discussion about the violence of the flood. This post is going to look at the account of the flood in Job 22:15-18. If you need a refresher on some of what we have looked at previously regarding the flood and the violence of God in Scripture, feel free to brows through some of the articles listed at the bottom of this post.


Job 22There are biblical passages outside of Genesis 6–8 that refer to the flood. One of the earliest of these is Job 22:15-18. In fact, since many scholars believe that the events described in the book of Job occurred long before the author of Genesis was alive [1], what the book of Job records about the flood may well be the earliest description of what happened in that cataclysmic event. [2]

Nevertheless, some may take exception with Job 22:15-18 as saying much of anything reliable about the flood. Why? Because Job is not the speaker in Job 22:15-18. Instead, Eliphaz, one of Job’s friends, is speaking.

However, even though Eliphaz is the one speaking, this does not mean we should automatically discredit everything he says. We will consider the book of Job in more detail later in posts and see that Job is in basic agreement with most of what his friend Eliphaz says. So although Eliphaz was wrong about the reasons for Job’s suffering, this does not mean he was wrong about everything he said. Most of what Eliphaz and Job’s other friends said is true in other circumstances; their fault was that what they were saying was not true in Job’s situation.

Job 22:15-18 and the Flood

So notice what it is that Eliphaz says about the flood in Job 22:15-18:

Will you keep to the old path that the wicked have trod?
They were carried off before their time, their foundations washed away by a flood.
They said to God, “Leave us alone! What can the Almighty do to us?”
Yet it was he who filled their houses with good things…  (Job 22:15-18a, NIV)
[3]

According to Eliphaz, God’s role in the flood was to give good things to the people who lived prior to the flood (Job 22:18a), but in response, all they wanted was for God to leave them alone. They told God to depart from them!

the flood

How they told God to leave them alone is not made clear in Job 22. Maybe it was simply through their persistence in committing great evil. Maybe they said this in response to the preaching of Noah (2 Pet 2:5). Regardless of how it happened, the explanation of Eliphaz for why the flood came upon the earth is that sinful humanity pushed God away.

Eliphaz is stating the sixth principle of the Chaos Theory: that God departs from us when we depart from His protective hand. God never actually departs from us, but He has given to mankind such a high degree of autonomy and freedom, that if we choose to continue down a path of death and destruction, He will let us go, even though it pains Him greatly, and even though He does everything possible to warn us about where such paths lead.

What we see in this earliest explanation of the flood account, is that God did nothing but woo people to Himself by filling their houses with good things (Job 22:18a).

But the people thought they knew better than God, and wanted to live their own way, despite the fact that He poured out His love and care upon them, and even sent righteous Noah to warn them about the flood that was coming. Yet they did not listen, and told God to just leave them alone.

So when the destruction of the flood waters came upon the earth, God had no choice but to do what they had requested, and leave the people alone. When “alienation becomes incurable, God does, in fact, depart.” [4]


[1] Evidence for an early date of the events of Job is seen in several ways. First, Job raised two complete families and died 140 years after his testing (Job 42:16). The LXX says that he died at age 248. This puts him in the age range of Peleg (Gen 10:25), who some think might have been Job’s uncle (if Job is the Jobab of Gen 10:29). Second, Job’s wealth is listed as measured in livestock and possessions, not money, which is further evidence for an extremely early date of the events in Job. Finally, the events recorded in Job were probably events he was familiar with. This includes the post-Flood ice age (38:29-30), cave men (24:4-10; 30:1-8), and the violent aftermath of the Flood which includes earthquakes, volcanoes, windstorms, and the raiding parties which decimated his first family.

[2] Though the events of the book of Job may have occurred before Moses lived, they were probably not written down in their present form until after Moses lived, and obviously, some of the events described in Genesis occurred long before Job lived. Confused yet? The order of events is something along these lines: (1) Creation. (2) The Flood. (3) Job Lived. (4) The story of Job was passed down orally. (5) Moses lived. (6) Moses composed the Pentateuch (No, I do not hold to the JEDP documentary hypothesis), which includes Genesis 6–8. (7) The story of Job was recorded in written form, probably during the reign of King Solomon.

[3] Not surprisingly, there are a few translation problems with Job 22:17-18. The two main issues are where the quotation ends and whether the last words of Job 22:17 should read “to us” or “to them.” See the various translations for how different scholars handle this text. In my opinion, the two issues are connected. If one goes with the textual variant which ends Job 22:17 with the words “to us” (as with the NIV above) then the quote of the people who lived at the time of the flood concludes at the end of Job 22:17. But if one goes with the textual variant which ends Job 22: 17 with the words “to them,” then the quote mark should end half way through Job 22:17 where the people before the flood tell God to “Depart from us” or “Leave us alone.” The last half of Job 22:17 would then be Eliphaz’s aside about what they said. If they tell God to leave them alone, what can the Almighty do? Regardless of how one translates the text, these issues do not affect in any way the main point I am arguing here, that the people at the time of the flood told God to depart from them, to leave them alone. All translations agree on this point.

[4] Campbell, Light through the Darkness, 99.

God of the Old Testament and JesusHow can a God who says "Love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44) be the same God who instructs His people in the Old Testament to kill their enemies?

These are the sorts of questions we discuss and (try to) answer in my online discipleship group. Members of the group can also take ALL of my online courses (Valued at over $1000) at no charge. Learn more here: Join the RedeemingGod.com Discipleship Group I can't wait to hear what you have to say, and how we can help you better understand God and learn to live like Him in this world!

God is z Bible & Theology Topics: flood, Job 22:15-18, violence of God, When God Pled Guilty

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7 Reasons I Switched to the Genesis Framework by StudioPress

By Jeremy Myers
23 Comments

7 Reasons I Switched to the Genesis Framework by StudioPress

You may have noticed that my website looks a little different recently. Here is why: I switched my blog theme to the Genesis Framework by StudioPress. This is a decision I have been weighing for over a year, and now that I have made the switch, I could not be happier. The recent release of Genesis 2.0 is what convinced me.

Genesis Framework

You might say, “Wait, I thought this was a WordPress blog…” It is. WordPress is the engine that runs this blog, but to actually make a blog readable, you need more than just WordPress. At the bare minimum, you also need a Theme, and for the smoothest running blogs, a framework as well. Confused yet?

Think of it this way:

Genesis Framework Get Started with StudioPress

(I pulled this graphic from the StudioPress website)

The previous framework and theme I was using was quite good. It was well-coded, easily customizable, and mobile responsive (meaning it changed to fit the screen width of tablet computers and smartphones). The reason I was becoming dissatisfied with the previous theme is that the designers cancelled the affiliate program for the theme (which is one of the primary reasons I bought it in the first place), and seemed to be more focused on being “cool” than on much of anything else. Also, their customer service–though excellent–was becoming increasingly snarky.

(UPDATE: After writing this post, I learned that my previous theme company is closing shop and shutting down their customer support service. So now I am EXTRA glad I made the switch to StudioPress and the Genesis Framework.)

So I switched to the Genesis Framework.

Here are seven reasons why.

1. Mobile Responsive

More and more people are reading blog and accessing websites using tablet computers and smartphones. For this reason, Google recommends a mobile responsive website. Being mobile responsive means that your website adjusts to these various screen sizes of smartphones and tablet computers. Sound difficult? The Genesis Framework has this ability built right in.

To see how this works if you are reading this post on a computer, just resize the window. Drag the right hand side of your web browser window in toward the left hand side, and watch the website adjust accordingly. Pretty cool, right?

Most people don’t resize their window this way as they are using a blog, but what it shows is that this blog can be easily read on a variety of screen sizes. If you have an iPad or a smartphone, load up this site on one of those, and see how it looks different than what is loaded on your screen. This is because my site is Mobile responsive, thanks to the Genesis Framework

2. Numerous High Quality Themes to Choose From

The second reason I switched to the Genesis Framework is that it has quite a few high quality Themes which all run on the Genesis Framework. If you look at that graphic above, the Theme is like the paint job on the frame of a car. The Genesis Framework has numerous “paint jobs” to choose from. To see what I mean, just head over to the StudioPress website and click on the “Themes” button.

You might wonder which theme I am using here…. well… I really liked the design from my previous website, so I pretty much created my own Theme so that it matched what I had before. I might switch it up in the future, but for now, I am going to stick with this.

3. FAST Loading Times

Whether you know it or not, how fast a website downloads is critical these days. A lot of my traffic to this site comes from Google searches, and one of the ranking factors Google uses to determine which search results to show on their pages is how fast the site loads. My site loads decently fast, but simply by switching over to the Genesis Framework, I shaved almost a full second off my load time! That’s amazing!

With my previous framework and theme, I was loading in about 3 seconds. Here is the report from Pingdom.com which shows the load time:

Speed Test Before

Here is a load time with the new Genesis Theme framework:

Speed Test After

Can you believe that? I cut my download time in half simply by switching to the Genesis Framework! Notice as well that my Page Size is less and my Performance Grade is higher!

For these two tests, I didn’t change anything except the framework. I used all the same plugins, settings, and images. The Genesis Framework just simply loads faster.

There are several things I am going to tweak over the coming months that will probably get the site to load even faster, but I am thrilled to shave 1.5 seconds off my time simply by switching to the Genesis Framework.

4. HTML5 Ready

I told you earlier that the release of Genesis 2.0 is what convinced me to switch Frameworks. One of the things that I like about Genesis 2.0 is that it is HTML5 ready. Most websites are built upon HTML4, which is pretty good, but HTML5 has a lot of really cool features built in. It has new elements, full CSS3 support, increased ability for vidoe and audio embedding, 2D/3D graphics, and lots more!

If all this is coding gobblygook to you, don’t worry about it. But here’s the thing: Eventually, HTML5 will be the standard for all websites. It only makes sense to begin preparing for it now by using a Framework like Genesis 2.0 that is HTML5 ready.

5. Microdata markup

Again, having microdata markup on your website is something that may not mean anything to you, but is critical for how websites function “behind the scenes” and what allows potential readers to find your website and blog on search engines like Google and Bing. I won’t bore you with the details of what this is, but suffice it to say that microdata markup from Schema.org is one way of labeling the various parts of your website and blog so that search engines know what is what. Keeping search engines happy is one of the primary keys to getting traffic from Google and Bing, and they LOVE having the various parts of your blog marked up with Schema.org markup. In fact, many believe that Schema.org markup will become one of the primary ranking factors in the future of search engine results.

Proper markup is one of the things that helps your website pages appear properly in search results. For example, when you search for “Matthew 12:31-32,” my page on the unforgivable sin often comes up.

Rich Snippets Testing Tool

Though there are many reasons for this, one of them is the Schema.org markup I am using on all my blog pages and posts. If you want to to test some of your own websites, use this markup validator tool.

This element is so important, I spent hours building it into the Framework I used to use, but Genesis 2.0 has it built right in! A HUGE time saver! This again is something that convinced me to make the switch.

6. Great Affiliate Program

One other reason I made the switch is because the good people at StudioPress have an affiliate program.

Yes, the Genesis Framework costs some money. The Framework all by itself is about $60. If you add a Theme to this, you are looking at around $80 or so. This is still less than the $99 I paid for my previous Framework, but here’s the thing… if you use a Framework that has an affiliate program, you can make the money you spent on the Framework back! If just three people make a purchase based off your recommendation, you have made all your money back, and then if anyone else buys it after that, you get money to pay your web hosting fees for the year, or dinner with your spouse, or a couple of books from Amazon, or… well, you get the picture.

If you are a blogger like me, you are probably not in it for the money. You simply want to write about some ideas that are bouncing around in your head. A nice benefit is if people read what you write. But for the best chance of people reading what you write, you need a decent web host (which costs money), and a decent web design (which often costs money). So it’s always nice when one or both of those have “affiliate programs” which you can use to regain some of those expenses (In case you are wondering, I use Hostgator for my webhosting. They also have an affiliate program. They also always run different coupons and deals, so you can always pick up a good, inexpensive server for yourself.

I was happy with the the affiliate program from the previous Framework I was using. I spent $99 on the Framework, and referred three affiliate sales (which earned my cost back), and then they shut down the affiliate program…

So I am glad to now be running one of the leading frameworks in the industry on this blog, and better still, to be part of their affiliate program. If you are looking for a Premium web theme, I highly recommend the Genesis Framework for the reasons stated above.

If you are thinking of buying it, please consider using one of the Genesis links above (or this one right here: Get Genesis 2.0) as I will then get credit for the referral. Thanks!

7.  FREE Support and FREE Updates FOR LIFE

There are lots of themes out there that charge for support, or charge you to update your blog to the newest version, or charge you an annual “membership fee.”

You won’t get any of these games with the Genesis Framework. Once you buy it, you are good for life.

That’s right. You get unlimited support FOREVER. If you have questions, just get onto their support forum or submit a ticket, and they will help you out! Hey, I will even help you out if I can.

You also get FREE updates FOREVER. When they come out with Genesis 3.0, 4.0, 5,0, or 100.0, you get to upgrade, FOR FREE.

Oh, and if  you have more than one website (like I do), you can use the Genesis Framework on ALL of your sites without paying any extra! None of my other websites are using the Genesis Framework yet, but I will slowly begin migrating them during the next few months.

So if you are looking for a quality theme to run your blog, I am not exaggerating when I say that the  Genesis Framework is the best.

In the comments below, feel free to write what you think about the Genesis Framework, or answer some of these questions: 

  1. If you have a blog, what is it? (Promote yourself! Go ahead!)
  2. If you have a blog, do you use a Premium Theme? Why or why not?
  3. If you do not have a blog, are you thinking about starting one? (If so, consider using my FREE Blog Setup Service)

God is z Bible & Theology Topics: affiliate, Blogging, Genesis Framework, StudioPress, wordpress

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Should Pastors Get Paid to Preach the Gospel?

By Jeremy Myers
114 Comments

Should Pastors Get Paid to Preach the Gospel?

preach the gospel for moneyIn years past I have written about what the Bible says about getting paid to pastor, and especially getting paid to preach the gospel (Look on this page, under the “Pastoral Pay” section). Recently, a reader sent in the following question:

I need help responding when someone quotes 1 Corinthians 9:14. Especially when they use the ESV & NKJV.

“In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.”

Specifically, that getting one’s living from the gospel is a “commanded” practice.

I understand that it is also translated “directed,” however, once “commanded” is interjected into the debate, it’s tough to respond.

My thoughts are: If “commanded” is the correct translation, then did Paul blatantly disobey the Lord’s command? And why would Paul say he would rather “die” than to even give the perception that he materially benefited from preaching?

Any thoughts on the issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Neil

I must admit that although I have finished a rough draft of a commentary on 1 Corinthians, I have never before considered this question Neil brought up. By one way of reading 1 Corinthians 9:14, Paul does appear to be saying that Jesus commanded that certain people should get paid to preach the gospel.

There are multiple ways of explaining and understanding this text, and I will present a few below, but would love for you opinion as well on what 1 Corinthians 9:14 means when Paul says that the Lord commanded that those who preach their gospel should get their living by the gospel.

Maybe the Command is not for the Preacher but for the Hearer

When Neil initially sent this question in to me, I responded this way:

First, I did some quick study of the Greek in the text, and decided that the various translations are fine. Though there are some verses in various translations that are horrid, this is not one of them.

So I then decided that maybe the command was not primarily for the one preaching the gospel, but for those who were receiving the benefit from the teacher. That is, the command is for the hearers. They were expected to provide for the one doing the teaching. If the one doing the teacher turned down the aid, that was fine, as Paul did. In the context, he says that although it was his right to receive financial help from the Corinthians believers, he turned it down so as not to hinder the gospel (1 Cor 9:12).

This is the answer I sent to Neil, and while I think there is truth to this idea (that the responsibility is on the hearer to offer support rather than on the teacher to demand it), I do not think that this is what Paul is saying. It does not seem that we can get my interpretation to fit the text. Note that the command is clearly to the one preaching the gospel, not to the ones hearing it. Although… the context is directed toward the hearers, so maybe my take is somewhat justified…

So what other options are there?

The Command is for Apostles who Preach the Gospel

preach for moneyNeil forwarded me an email that he got back from Alan Knox, who gave a much better (and more thorough) answer than I did. His answer actually considers the context and where Jesus might have given the command that Paul is referring to.

Hopefully Alan does not mind if I include here what he wrote…

My suggestion would be to consider the context… who is Paul writing about? As I see it, there are two options:

1) Paul is referring to anyone who “proclaims the gospel.” Of course, that would mean that he was referring to every believer who ever shares the gospel, and that all of them “should get their living by the gospel.”

or

2) Paul is referring to a specific group who “proclaim the gospel.” But which group. Again, I see two options: A) Paul specifies the group in the context of this passage, or B) We can choose the group. The B) option is not very palatable to me, which only leaves A). And, the first part of 1 Corinthians 9 tells us that Paul is talking about people who travel to proclaim the gospel, i.e., apostles.

So, by focusing on the “who,” you don’t even have to worry as much about what “commanded” means or what “should get their living by the gospel” means.

By the way, I think that Paul is talking about receiving hospitality, which Jesus “commanded” to apostles in Matthew 10 and Luke 10. So, the “command” was not to people giving the support, but to people receiving the support (that is, hospitality).

Neil followed up with some further comments of his own on how Paul reacted to that “commandment” in the second half of 1 Corinthians 9.

Reading only the first half of 1 Corinthians 9, it could be argued that Paul taught and endorsed that pastors have a right to receive a salary. But that would be taking Paul completely out of context on this issue. In reading the entire chapter in context, Paul went much further, by word and deed, as an example to clearly demonstrate that he believed one’s personal right to compensation for preaching the gospel ends where the gospel of Christ begins. Specifically, Paul explained in the second half of the chapter that exercising that right would not only “hinder” the gospel, but also be a financial “burden” on the Church.

So examining Paul’s words and actions on the issue in full context, it’s obvious that Paul wanted no part of anything, including the exercising of one’s personal rights that could possibly harm the gospel message and be a financial burden on the church. And for those who point to 1 Corinthians 9:14 and say, “the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel,” the word “commanded” is also translated, “directed” in many prominent translations. Not to mention that if the Lord did in fact command it, then the man He personally ordained as an Apostle and minister of the gospel decided to make the Lord’s command just an option. It couldn’t be sensibly argued that this is the case.

To be clear, in the second half of chapter 9, Paul puts the compensation issue from the first half of the chapter in context, focusing on pastors having to endure all things in complete submission to the gospel, not accommodating a pastor’s personal right to reap material benefits and make a living from the gospel.

I believe Neil is right on target when he says that “one’s personal right to compensation for preaching the gospel ends where the gospel of Christ begins.”

I have written previously about what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:9 where he says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain.” Among other things, I wrote this:

1 Corinthians 9 cannot be used by pastors to defend the practice of receiving a salary. It is talking about traveling missionaries and apostolic leaders who have left their home and jobs to teach and support other Christians in other towns. Since they will typically only be in a city or town for a few weeks or months, they are dependent upon the hospitality of the people in that city or town. Ideally, even these spiritual leaders should have “travelling professions” if possible, so like Paul, they do not have to depend on the financial aid of other people either.

In other words, there are a lot of critical cultural, historical, and biblical background material that must be considered to properly understand, interpret, and apply Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 9:14 that those who preach the gospel should get their living from the gospel. We need to understand the role of hospitality in the Hebrew and Roman culture and economy, we need to understand the law in Deuteronomy about borrowing a neighbors oxen, we need to understand the the role and purpose of apostles, and above all, we need to properly understand the full scope of the gospel.

The bottom line is this: If a pastor quotes 1 Corinthians 9:14 as a way to demand that the people he minister to should pay his salary, he is using 1 Corinthians 9:14 in exactly the opposite way that Paul was using it. Paul writes 1 Corinthians 9:14 in the context of explaining why he does not take money from the people he serves. 

Don’t misunderstand. I am not saying it is a sin for pastors to take a salary. All I am saying is that 1 Corinthians 9:14 cannot be used to defend the practice. Taking a salary as a pastor is a choice, and deciding to not take a salary is also a choice. Each person must decide for themselves which way of living will be of most benefit to the gospel of Jesus Christ and to the people whom they seek to serve.

So what do you think about 1 Corinthians 9:14? Have you ever had a pastor tell you that it is God’s command that you support him to preach the gospel? Weigh in below, and if you have written about this on your own blog, include a link in the comment section. 


God is z Bible & Theology Topics: 1 Corinthians 9, money, pastor, preach the gospel, Preaching, Theology of the Church

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Church Tribes vs. Jesus’ Tribe

By Jeremy Myers
13 Comments

Church Tribes vs. Jesus’ Tribe

This post about church tribes is written by Sam Riviera, a frequent contributor to this blog.


church tribe Jesus tribe

Yesterday’s post  introduced to the concept of church tribes. This post looks at the pros and cons of church tribes, and how to be part of Jesus’ Tribe.

Benefits of Belonging to a Church Tribe

There are benefits to belong to a tribe… especially a church tribe.

One of the primary benefits of having a tribe is that it gives us a sense of belonging, a place where we can call home, and feel protected.

We all want safe havens where we are listened to, accepted, and loved. Most of us can handle aggressive, angry, hostile people much better when we know we have a loving, supportive family waiting for us at home, and a loving, supportive group, be it a church or a social club, with whom we will gather to escape a hostile world and support one another.

Together we can accomplish what we could never do alone. We can work on common goals, trade ideas and “have each others backs.” It’s nice to be part of a group where together we can form a united front that tells people, “Don’t mess with us or we’ll stomp on you.”

Even if others think us strange, weird, or crazy, that’s OK. We have each other to tell us that we’re normal and everyone else is crazy.

Disadvantages of Belonging to a Tribe

Nevertheless, there are some disadvantages to belonging to a tribe, and to church tribes in particular.

Most tribes expect those who belong to conform to the rules of the tribe. This is especially true of church tribes. If we want to belong, we must first learn who’s the chief, who are his right-hand people and what we are expected to do to show proper respect to them. We may be expected to show not only respect, but to give gifts of time, money and other items to the “tribal leaders”.

[Read more…]

God is z Bible & Theology Topics: church, guest post, Sam Riviera, Theology of the Church, tribal church, tribalism

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Then I Will Know Fully, As I Am Fully Known

By Jeremy Myers
8 Comments

Then I Will Know Fully, As I Am Fully Known

In my recent series on trying to understand the violent passages of Scripture in the Old Testament in light of the self-sacrificial love of Jesus Christ, I have the nagging sense in the back of my brain that all our theories and ideas on this subject (and in many other areas of theology as well) are about on par with a dog trying to figure out what humans are doing when they sit around talking, playing a card game, or just watching TV.

dog watching tvA dog can understand bits and pieces, I suppose, but they have very little idea about speech, electricity, rules of games, logical thought, or many of the other things that make us human.

I suppose that in some ways, all our speculative theology is little more than comic relief for God. You know… when we have a hard day, it is enjoyable to sit down a read a funny book or watch a humorous sitcom. I wonder if, when God has a hard century of running the universe, He gathers the angels together and says, “Let’s see what crazy idea Jeremy Myers wrote about on his blog today! Ha ha ha! That’s rich! Hilarous!  So funny!”

God is not mocking, of course. But I imagine He sometimes laughs at our feeble attempts to understand Him and His ways.

But I don’t think it was supposed to be this way. I think that as a result of the fall, we lost much of our ability to understand and interact with Him, this world, and one another. I think that as a result of the fall of Adam and Eve into sin, and as a natural consequences of living spiritually separated from God for so long, we have lost much of our capacity to know God.

But when Jesus Christ returns, Paul says that we will know Him, just as we are fully known (1 Cor 13:12). I wonder what that will be like? We will be given back some “senses” that we didn’t know even existed?

[Read more…]

God is z Bible & Theology Topics: 1 Corinthians 13:12, human, Jesus, knowing God, new bodies, Theology - General, Theology of God

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