This guy is a genius…
Which Religion Cares Most about the Homeless?
Two Men in one Bed (Luke 17:34)
Note: This post is part of the July 2015 Synchroblog.
In the past, I have taught that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality.
But a few weeks ago, after the Supreme Court of the United Stated ruled that gay couples could get legally married, a guy came up to me and said, “This ruling is a sign of the end of the world! Jesus prophesied in Luke 17:34 that when the rapture happens, there will be two men in a bed!”
I went on to show him that in the Greek, the word “men” is not actually there, so all it really says is “There will be two in one bed …”
And besides, there is some question about whether Luke 17 is even referring to the rapture.
But even if the text is referring to a gay couple in bed, and even if the text does teach about the rapture, I pointed out to him that one of the men was taken in the rapture, which means that apparently, God accepted him.
He apparently hadn’t though about this … and so started back-peddling a bit from this text.
But I decided to look into Luke 17:34 a bit more deeply.
Is it just two people in a bed?
As I pointed out to the end-of-the-world alarmist, the word “men” is not in Luke 17:34. The text literally reads:
In that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.
But then I noticed that in the context, our English translations go on in Luke 17:35 to record Jesus talking about two women grinding at the mill. I looked briefly at the Greek here as well, and noticed that the word “women” was not in Luke 17:35, just as the word “men” was not in Luke 17:34. Note that the word “mill” is not in the text either. Luke 17:35 literally says this:
Two will be grinding together; one will be taken and the other left.
So I asked myself, “What am I missing? Why do many English translators supply the word “men” in Luke 17:34 and “women” in Luke 17:35 when neither word is there? So I looked at the verses a little more carefully, and noticed that other words in Luke 17:34-35 revealed the gender of the people in question.
When Luke 17:34 says, “one will be taken and the other left,” the words “one” and “other” are both masculine. By itself, this might not mean that the two people were men, for Greek (as in most languages) can use male words and pronouns to refer generically to “people” whether they are male or female.
But Luke 17:35 is much more clear. When this verse says, “one will be taken and the other left,” the words “one” and “other” are both feminine. A feminine pronouns are only used of women.
So when you compare Luke 17:34 and Luke 17:35, and Luke 17:35 is clearly referring to two women, then it seems pretty clear that Luke 17:34 is referring to two women. The burden of proof lies on those who want to say that Luke 17:35 refers to women while Luke 17:34 refers generically to “people.”
But so what?
Just because two men are in one bed, this doesn’t mean they’re gay.
This is very true.
While rare, it is not completely unheard of for two straight men to share one bed today. They might share a bed for warmth, or for protection, or simply because there is a lack of bed space.
This is especially true of men in ancient Middle-Eastern cultures. Unlike most modern Western males, I read in various sources that men of the Ancient Near East didn’t feel “weirded out” by sharing a bed with another man.
But then I started studying the context further.
One source that really provided some background details for my study was a series of blog posts by Ron Goetz on gays and lesbians in Luke. What follows below is a brief summary of his arguments.
NOTE: I am not saying I agree with Ron Goetz. All I am doing is summarizing his research. I would like your opinion on what he argues, and would like your thoughts about whether or not Jesus does, in fact, mention homosexual couples in Luke 17:34-35, and what this means (if anything) for the debate today about Same-Sex Marriage.
Gay Sex in Luke 17:34-35
Below is a small sampling of what Ron Goetz argues regarding two same-sex couples in Luke 17. Before you criticize what he says, I strongly urge you to go read through his entire series of posts, as it is likely that he has already responded to your question or criticism.
The summary/extended quote from Ron Goetz begins below…
I tell you, in that night,
there shall be two men in one bed;
the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together;
the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(Luke 17:34-35, KJV)
The Context of Sodom
Immediately before the mention of two men in one bed is a lengthy discussion of the destruction of Sodom. Now I don’t believe the sin of Sodom was homosexuality. But there are many today who believe that it was, and I think most of the Jewish believers in Luke’s audience may have believed it as well.
Jesus knew that by recounting key details of Sodom’s destruction, his audience would have man-on-man sex on its mind. Jesus intended for us to understand that the “two men in one bed” were gay.
One key practice for interpreting a passage in the Greek scriptures is to look for its antecedents in the Old Testament.
I’ve only found two Old Testament references to two men laying together.
“Thou shalt not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination” (Leviticus 18:22).
“If a man lie with a man, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” (Leviticus 20:13).
By clearly alluding to the Levitical prohibitions against male homosexuality, followed immediately with his declaration that “one shall be taken, and the other left,” Jesus declared his own acceptance of gays and lesbians, and that gays and lesbians are not automatically rejected by God.
Whether or not you believe in this final separation, or whether or not you believe the Bible, doesn’t matter with regard to the significance of the passage. What is important is that Luke 17:34-35 teaches that sexually active gays and lesbians are not automatically consigned to perdition.
Two Women Grinding Together
In the Hebrew Bible, “grind” is used as an acceptable euphemism for sexual intercourse in at least four places: Job 31:10, Judges 16:21, Isaiah 47:2-3, and Lamentations 5:13.
[Yet] It seems shocking that Jesus would use what sounds to us today like gutter language when referring to lesbian love-making. The idea of Jesus uttering the words “women grinding together” can be very uncomfortable. It certainly was for me. Even though the Old Testament evidence confirmed my hypothesis, it was difficult for me to hear that language coming from the mouth of Christ.
But when you remember that there is earthy language throughout the Bible, in both testaments, we get an understanding that the church’s demand for regal, solemn, respectable language is not a Biblical demand. Our personal and cultural expectations are not necessarily in sync with the scriptures. What sounds like earthy language today were, generally speaking, acceptable Biblical euphemisms.
Solomon’s love poem, the Song of Songs, is well known for its graphic descriptions of romantic love. First century Israel did not have the clinical, scientific nomenclature for sexual matters that we have today, but they did have acceptable ways to discuss these things among adults.
No, Jesus Christ was not using gutter language when he mentions “two women grinding together.” The Old Testament books of Job, Judges, and Lamentations contain the Biblical use of the metaphorical grind. Jesus used the ordinary, acceptable language of his day to refer to lesbian love-making.
[But it is not just a couple of Old Testament texts that use “grind” in this way.]
In Latin, the word “grind,” and the related word “mill,” are both euphemisms for things sexual. The Roman poet Horace (65 to 8 BCE) used “grind” in his endorsement of brothels. Writing in Latin just decades before the birth of Christ, [one author] says that
Once, when a noble left a brothel, “Blessed be thou for thy virtue!” quoth the wisdom of Cato: “for when their veins are swelling with gross lust, young men should drop in there, rather than grind some husband’s private mill.”
His use of both “grind” and “mill” shows that even the presence of the word “mill” does not eliminate the possibility of sexual meanings in the word “grind.” Horace’s usage is very significant because it is proof of the use of “grind” as a euphemism for sexual intercourse in the Roman empire just a few decades before the birth of Christ.
[Such euphemisms are also found in Greek.]
Plutarch (ca A.D. 45 to 120) was born in Greece near Delphi, and was a contemporary of Luke. One of Plutarch’s s, “The Banquet of Seven Wise Men,” is a fictional conversation among some famous men who lived around 650 BCE. After a brief lull in the conversation, Thales of Miletus speaks:
This remark arrested the attention of the whole company, and Thales said jestingly…. “when I was at Lesbos, I heard my landlady, as she was very busy at her handmill, singing as she used to go at her work:
Grind, mill, grind;
For even Pittacus grinds,
King of great Mytilene.
Plutarch records “grind” used as a sexual metaphor in the last quarter of the first century A.D., overlapping the probable years when Luke was composed.
The sexual meanings of “grind” and “mill” were common in Greek society when Luke being composed, and could have been in common usage for as long as 700 years prior to that. There is no room for quibbling over whether or not “grind” and “mill” were used sexually in the Greek language of the first century, and that this layer of meaning was familiar to literate Greeks.
The Lightning and the Eagle
A major piece of evidence supporting the thesis of a deliberate gay theme in Luke’s Small Apocalypse (which I call “Luke’s Gay Apocalypse”) is found in the two primary symbols of Zeus, the supreme god in Roman religion. The symbols of Zeus are the lightning bolt and the eagle, and they appear in Luke 17:24, 37.
I subsequently investigated the Luke 17 passage specifically as the “Q Apocalypse,” and was blessed to find a terrific resource, “Where the Eagles are Gathered”: The Deliverance of the Elect in Lukan Eschatology, by Steven L. Bridge (2003), who connects the lightning and the eagles with Zeus and Ganymede.
The lightning bolt was Zeus’ powerful weapon, and the eagle was sent to retrieve the bolts after Zeus had thrown them. One of the most popular and enduring stories involving the eagle describes the Abduction of Ganymede. According to the story, the King of Troy had a beautiful son named Ganymede, and Zeus found Ganymede irresistibly attractive.
According to the story, the attractive young Ganymede is abducted by an eagle, who in one version is Zeus himself, having transformed himself into an eagle. While the story had several uses (as a paradigm for imperialism and an allegory for Truth), in the Roman era the sexual nature of Ganymede’s relationship with Zeus was widely recognized.
Zeus had numerous liaisons with mortal women, but only one same-sex relationship, and the eagle is vividly associated with his romantic relationship with Ganymede. Just as the donkey reminds Christians of the Nativity and the Triumphal Entry, so also the eagle reminded Romans and Roman subjects of Zeus’ sexual relationship with his cup bearer and servant, Ganymede. The story of Zeus and Ganymede adds a layer of sexual meaning and interest to the eagle’s image which is missing from its common use as a symbol of power.
What we have here are the two chief symbols of Zeus, lightning and eagles, one of which is vividly associated with Zeus’ same-sex relationship with Ganymede, located at the beginning and end of a discrete unit of the third gospel, Luke’s Small Apocalypse. That distance between the verses may seem great, and this distance has obscured their historical and cultural connection. But these were the symbols of Zeus. If we were to read a paragraph that opened with a mention of a “crown of thorns” and ended with a “cross,” no one would doubt that the crucifixion was a central element in that paragraph.
Anywhere in the Roman Empire, someone reading Luke 17:20-37 would immediately recognize Zeus and Ganymede in Luke 17:24, 37.
So are Gay People Accepted by God or not?
The upshot of all this? Once we recognize the common thread running through the major elements of the passage–Zeus and Ganymede, Sodom, and the gay and lesbian couples–the entire passage coheres as a unified whole. Not only do the major elements of the passage become related in a single theme, but several unresolved interpretive questions fall into place as well.
The general topic or theme of the passage is indeed judgment, but the examples Jesus uses to illustrate the enactment of judgment don’t tell us what is worthy of judgment, but what is not worthy of judgment.
And this is one very accurate way of describing the purpose of the passage. We’ve never quite known what the basis of acceptability was for the favored members of these pairs. We have surmised that they have an unspoken relationship with God, that they have faith, that they have remained awake and watchful and kept their lamps trimmed, but the passage has forced us to guess what the difference is between those who are taken and those who are left.
That puzzled guessing is understandable, because the point of the passage never has been to tell us the difference between who is acceptable to God and who is unacceptable. The point has been to tell us that homosexuality is not a factor in a person’s acceptability to God.
People’s sexual orientation is not among the criteria for whether they’re in or whether they’re out.
Luke’s Gay Apocalypse, with the romantically involved gays and lesbians and the gathering of the Eagles around the Body of Christ, tells both Jews and Roman gentiles the “moral of the story.” It is this:
- Non-Celibate Gays and Lesbians are not Rejected by God.
- Homosexuality is Not a Criterion of Acceptability for God.
- Lesbians and Gays are Present in the Final Eschatological Gathering of God’s Elect.
Just because the word “homosexual” doesn’t appear in the gospels doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t talk about it. He did talk about homosexuality, using concrete terms similar to those in the Hebrew scriptures.
I tell you, in that night,
there shall be two men in one bed;
the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together;
the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(Luke 17:34-35, KJV)
Jesus discussed homosexuals in precisely the way we would expect him to, not in abstract terms, but using concrete examples.
The post above was part of the 2015 Sychroblog on Gay Marriage. Below are posts from other bloggers who also contributed. Go read them all to see what they have to say!
- Justin Steckbauer – Gay Marriage, LGBTQ Issues, and the Christian Worldview
- Leah Sophia – Marriage Equality Again
- Tony Ijeh – Thoughts on Gay Marriage
- Tim Nichols – Imago Dei: Loving the Different
- Carlos Shelton – About Gay Marriage
- Wesley Rostoll – Some Things to Consider Regarding Gay Marriage
- K. W. Leslie – Same-sex Marriage
- Paul W. Meier – Gay Marriage: Love is the Narrow Gate
- Tara – Justice for All
- Michelle Torigian – Marriage Equality: The Constantly Expanding Love of God
- Lifewalk Blog – Here I am
- Mary – A Recovering Evangelical Writes about Homosexuality
- Liz – Same Sex Marriage Stuff: Part 1
- Loveday – Gay Marriage in Africa, USA, and the World
- Jea7587 – Loving Your Gay Neighbor, Part 2
- D. L. Webster – Questions of Interacting with Differing Beliefs
Do you have Paper theology or People theology?
Do you have a paper theology or a people theology?
I used to have a paper theology.
In many ways, I suppose I still do.
A paper theology is when we have the “right” answers to tough theological questions and issues, but we don’t really know any people that are affected by our “right” answer.
In other words, paper theology is when we approach Scripture and theology from an “ivory tower” perspective. We study for the sake of studying and finding answers, but none of our answers have any real connection to life.
Paper theology is a theology that comes from studying books.
There is nothing exactly wrong with a paper theology. It is just that since paper theology never takes people into consideration, paper theology is often wrong when applied to real life. Paper theology may be right on paper, but wrong in life.
That’s because life requires people theology.
I am working on my people theology
If paper theology comes from studying books, people theology comes from being with people.
It requires coming down out of the ivory tower, leaving the quiet study, closing the dusty books, and entering into the real lives of real people who have real problems. When you do this, you quickly discover that the neat and tidy answers from your paper theology rarely applies or helps anyone in real life.
More often than not, when you get involved in the lives of people, you will find that your paper theology begins to get a bit muddled. Lines start getting erased. Clear-cut answers start to get smudged a bit.
Being with people changes your paper theology.
If you try to hold on to your paper theology when hanging around with people, it will not be long before people stop hanging around you.
The theology that looks good on paper rarely looks good when applied to people.
Jesus had People Theology
One of the biggest battles Jesus faced during His earthly minister was with the religious people of His day. While those who were labeled as “sinners” by the religious people loved to hang out with Jesus, those who were religious often found themselves at odds with Jesus.
Why?
Because the people theology of Jesus clashed with the paper theology of the religious.
Almost every single encounter Jesus had with the religious people was because they had theologically “correct” answers to pressing cultural and religious issues, but which Jesus soundly rejected in favor of loving and helping people.
The religious people had laws (easily defended from Scripture) about not working on the Sabbath. Jesus let his disciples break these laws because they were hungry (Luke 6:1-5).
The religious people had laws (easily defended from Scripture) about who could and could not be helped on the Sabbath. It was even a nice three-point answer! But Jesus ignored their neat and tidy theological answer so He could help a person get his hand back (Luke 6:6-11).
The religious people had laws (easily defended from Scripture) about stoning those caught in adultery. But when they brought an adulterous woman to Jesus, He forgave her and let her go.
We could give example after example after example.
But here’s the point: Jesus knew that the point of theology was to help us love people better.
If our theology causes us to bind heavy burdens on people’s backs, while creating rules, restrictions, and regulations for how to live life with God and others, and we stifle people’s joy, censor their love, and chide them for their grace, it is no wonder that people reject us and our theology, and maybe the God we claim to follow as well.
But let us follow the example of Jesus in developing our theology surrounded by people.
If our theology is really “true” it will lead us to look like Jesus and love like Jesus. True theology will be a theology built not on a love for paper, but on a love for people.
What does this mean for our theology?
It means that while we can develop and build our theology by reading and studying, nothing should be really set in stone until we put this theology into practice in the lives of people around us.
Do you believe God is angry about sin? Take a look at what this sort of idea does psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually to those in your life who know they are sinners. Does it lead them toward God, or away from Him? Does it lead toward honesty and openness about our failures, or does it cause us to hide and lie about our mistakes?
Do you believe that LGBTQ people are sex-crazed perverts being used by the devil to lead our country to hell? Well, first, good luck trying to prove this from Scripture, but second, how about you go out and become friends with someone who is gay? Of course, you better not tell them your theology, or you will never become friends. But if you truly become friends, you might discover that your “theology” about LGBTQ people changes. Here are some accounts of people who had this very thing happen to them:
- A pastor who changed his thinking about homosexuality
- 3 Mistakes about the Homosexual conversations and how we can correct these
Do you believe that Muslims are all violent extremists who want to chop your head off? Again, good luck trying to prove this from Scripture, but before you go spouting off about this idea to others, maybe you should go out and become good friends with some Muslims. Not to convert them or “win them to Christ,” but just to be friends with them. I think that if you do, your paper theology about Muslims might change.
We could on and on about various other theological and practical issues, but the end of the matter is this: If you get to know people as part of developing your theology, these people will change your theology more than your theology will change people. And that’s a good thing.
Have you persecuted a prophet today?

In Acts 7, Stephen presents his defense for why he is a follower of Jesus. At one point in his speech, he says this:
Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? (Acts 7:52)
In other words, “Name me one prophet that our ancestors did not persecute, despise, and reject.”
What is Stephen saying? He is saying the same thing that Jesus said: “Prophets are never accepted in their hometown” (Luke 4:24). Yes, and maybe not in their home country, or even their home time era.
And “never accepted” is an understatement. Many of the prophets were hunted down, arrested, starved, tortured, and killed.
But let’s do a little thought experiment about prophets
Put yourself back at the time of Stephen. Imagine that you are standing there, listening to his speech.
As you imagine yourself there, on that day, as the mass presses upon him murderous rage, where do you picture yourself standing? What are you thinking? What are you doing?
Would you have been sticking up for what Stephen taught?
Or would you have been among those who picked up stones to kill him?
In the image below, where do you place yourself?
Yeah, me too. I imagine myself among those who stand up for Stephen.
But notice in Acts 7, that the only one standing up for Stephen on this day was Jesus Christ (Acts 7:56). Everybody else present had been caught up on the contagion of violence and picked up stones to kill him.
Hmm….
Well, maybe all his supporters were too scared. Or weren’t allowed in to the trial.
But if we had been there, we would have been on the side of the condemned! Right?
But would we have?
If you had been present at the stoning of Stephen, would you have protected him or stoned him?
Let’s try a simpler (or harder) scenario.
Imagine yourself living in Jerusalem during the days of Jesus’ arrest and crucifixion.
Where do you imagine yourself standing?
Do you imagine yourself standing at the foot of the cross, weeping for how they have crucified your Lord?
Or do you imagine yourself standing in the mob, chanting “Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Crucify Him!”
In the image below, where do you place yourself?
Again, I’m with you. I imagine myself as being among those who had forsaken all to follow Him.
I imagine myself as being among those who stood by Jesus’ side no matter what. I imagine myself being among His closest followers.
… Except …
Where were all of his closest followers during the trial of Jesus?
The only disciple nearby was Peter, and he was busy denying and cursing Jesus.
Well then, we definitely would have been there with Jesus when he was crucified. Right?
Umm … Maybe not.
According to the Gospel accounts, it appears that only John showed up at the crucifixion, along with the mother of Jesus and several other women (John 19:25-27).
But you and I? We definitely would have been there, right?
Let’s be honest … probably not.
If we consider the thousands of people who just a few days before were wanting to crown Jesus as king (Matthew 21), the fact that only a few of these showed up at the cross does not provide good odds that we ourselves would have been among those few.
Even if we narrow it down to the 72 disciples that Jesus sent out to minister in the countryside, the fact that less than 5 people stood by Jesus as the cross gives us a less than a 7% chance that you or I would have been there. Since most of these were women, if you are a man, your odds are less than 1.5%.
Even among the closest twelve followers of Jesus, one betrayed Him, one denied Him, nine ran away and hid, and only one showed up at the foot of the cross.
So if you had been present at the crucifixion of Jesus, would you have wept for His death or cried out for His blood?
What does this mean?
We who claim to follow God do not have a good track record of recognizing God’s messengers, and even when we do recognize them, we have an even worse track record of standing by them when trouble comes.
Statistically, traditionally, historically, and Scripturally, rather than listen to the messengers of God, we are far more likely to reject, despise, slander, condemn, rebuke, persecute, and even kill those whom God has sent to speak His truth to us.
“No! Not us!” we say. “If we had lived in the days of Jesus, we would have recognized Him and stood by His side.”

Yes, and that’s exactly what the people in the days of Jesus said about the prophets who came before Jesus … right before they turned around and killed Him (Matthew 23:30).
Do we honestly think that you and I would have done any better at recognizing and listening to Jesus (or any of the prophets) than did the vast majority of people in those days?
Most of those people likely knew the Bible better than we do. Most of them probably prayed more in one day than we do in a month. Most of them had vast portions of Scripture memorized. Most of them attended Torah study three or four times a week, and on Saturday they spent most of the day at the Synagogue (the Jewish church) in Scripture study and prayer.
Yet when prophets came, including the Messiah Himself, they didn’t recognized or heed any of these prophets, but instead, chased them out of town, made false accusations against them, had them arrested, tortured, starved, stoned, and crucified.
And we think we would have been different?
Honesty demands that we probably would have been among the crowd calling for the death of a the prophet.
Why am I saying this?
Here’s why:
If the people in the days of the prophets failed to recognize them as prophets, but instead condemned, accused, judged, criticized, and killed them, and if the people in the days of Jesus failed to recognize Him as the Messiah, but instead condemned, accused, judged, criticized, and killed him, then maybe … just maybe … the way to recognize a messenger of God to us is to look at who we Christians like to condemn, accuse, judge, criticize, and kill … and then consider that maybe … just maybe … these people are God’s messengers to us.
If we look at Scripture and history, we see that the reason God’s messengers get condemned and criticized and killed is because they never go with the religious status quo, but instead, call on the religious people to repent and change their ways, and abandon the foolish and empty chase after religious rituals and regulations.
This is why it typically was not the non-religious, secular “sinners” who reject and condemn the prophets, but the religious people who do so.
So who do you condemn? Who do you judge? Who do you label as a “sinner”? Who is it that seems to be attacking your way of reading Scripture and your understanding of how God “set things up”? Who is it that you accuse of undermining your traditions, of sacrificing your sacred cows?
Might it be possible that these people are really God’s messengers to you, that they might be God’s prophet?
Might it be possible that your enemy is your prophet and God wants you to listen to those you would rather ignore, and love those you would rather hate?
Have you persecuted a prophet today?
Don’t be too quick to answer “No.”
Nonviolent Resistance and Pacifism are Not the Same Thing
I recently had an email exchange with a reader of this blog about pacifism and nonviolence. Usually such exchanges are better suited for the comment section of blog posts, since this allows more people to weigh in on the conversation. So, for the sake of inviting you in to the conversation, I will post our email exchange below. Please read it and then weigh in with your own thoughts.
I am interspersing my thoughts into the exchange (indicated by brackets [ … ]), and will conclude with some brief observations and clarifications.
Derek (not his real name): A question. If it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convince the world of sin (and I agree that this is the job of the Holy Spirit) are you saying that we as a nation are not to do anything about the threat to our freedom from ISIS or the other radical Muslims who say we must submit to their god? “A nation” is composed of people (some of the population being Christian) and if they do nothing against their enemies, then they will be over run by those enemies. Would just like a little clarification. Otherwise, you are correct that we should not use the “Christians are not perfect…just forgiven” as an excuse for covering for someone who has done wrong who claims to be a Christian. Of course, I assume you do believe that Christians are not perfect until God gives us our glorified body. Right or do you believe Christians can become perfect?
J. Myers: No, I am not saying that we should do nothing about ISIS. But violence will only lead to more violence. There are ways to nonviolently resist the things they are doing. Think Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Nelson Mandela, etc.
[I didn’t answer his questions about Christian perfectionism. I do not believe Christians can become perfect in this life, but I didn’t want our discussion to get sidetracked onto peripheral issues.]
Derek: Please tell me one way you can nonviolently resist the radical ISIS? While nonviolence is a desired way, you approach a radical ISIS member and you most likely will lose your head.
Will be waiting your reply, as I have much to say about Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Nelson Mandela.
J. Myers: There is no “one way” or even “a way” that fits every situation. That is why creativity and determination are needed in nonviolent resistance.
But no, I would never recommend approaching a radical ISIS member. Why would you? Nonviolent resistance is primarily for the times when they approach you. And yes, you might lose your head. But Jesus was crucified, and in God’s economy, dying for what is right is more of a “win” than killing someone else to save one’s life.
[Note that nonviolent resistance is not about “winning” or “defeating the enemy.” If we nonviolently resist, we may end up dead. That’s what happened to Jesus, after all. The goal of nonviolent resistance is not to “stay alive” while taking the life of someone else (if necessary), but it is rather to reveal God and love others like Jesus. It is impossible to do this if you are killing them.]
Derek: It is good that most Christians in the United States – from the beginning of the republic until today – do not hold your pacifistic viewpoints on dealing with the devils who call themselves Islamic Jihadists.
[Note the scapegoating going on in Derek’s statement. He has “de-humanized” these Muslims by calling them “devils.” We get very upset when Muslims refer to the United States as “The Great Satan,” but we do the same thing to them.]
I don’t know exactly what you mean by, “That is why creativity and determination are needed in nonviolent resistance.” I will admit, that if a person can meet one of these people who is not so radicalized, and you can tell him or her about the saving Grace of God, and that their Allah is not the real God, it is possible to win them to Christ. But how many of them are going to give you that opportunity? Not many.
[Yes. If the first words out of your mouth when you meet a Muslim include “Allah is not a real God,” it is not surprising that they will not want to hear the rest of what you have to say, and you will not “win them to Christ.” But who ever said that such words need to be included in the first conversation you have with Muslims? Or even the tenth? Or Hundredth?]
I believe that God is allowing these radical Muslims and other revolutionaries to stir up the middle east – perhaps bringing about World War III – so the people of the world who are so naïve, will fall for the argument that we need a World Government perhaps under the current United Nations. I believe we are in the Last Days, and if such does come about, from this World Government could come the Anti-Christ which the Scriptures tell us about. If that happens, then you should know the rest of the story.
[Here is the scapegoating again. World War III is already being blamed on the Muslims, and it hasn’t even started yet!]
Earlier, you had mentioned the “nonviolent” tactics of Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela.
Gandhi was a true believer and practitioner of “nonviolence.” However, my understanding is that he was not a “born again” Christian, despite all the good work he did. If the Scriptures are correct in their teachings (and I believe they are), then Gandhi is in torment in Hell as I write this email.
[Isn’t it strange that while Gandhi can better follow the instructions of Jesus than most Christians (even though He was Hindu), he is “in torment in Hell” right now? Yes, I know we do not receive eternal life by works, but I find this entire line of reasoning quite shocking. Also, because Gandhi wasn’t a “Christian” he apparently has nothing to teach us?]
Martin Luther King attended various meetings which were sponsored by organizations which were “communistic” in nature. While his nonviolent protests did bring about the Civil Rights movement and led to ending the wrongs of Segregation, one of the unintended consequences of such has produced Black hoodlums across America, many of whom have the idea they do not have to obey the laws of the land because their ancestors were slaves. Racial tensions are greater today, than they were during the days of Segregation. Martin Luther King was a professing Christian and Minister, and I have to give him the benefit of the doubt that at some time in his life, he trusted in the shed Blood of Christ on the Cross for forgiveness of his sins, and held to that trust for his Salvation until the day he was assassinated.
[So, Martin Luther King Jr., though he was a Christian and a pastor, can apparently be discredited too because his meetings were sponsored by communistic organizations? And what is this about the end of segregation being responsible for “black hoodlums across America”? Yikes!]
Nelson Mandela was another who was influenced by “communistic” doctrines. And while he may have been unjustifiably held in prison for many years, I do not believe he was a professing Christian, and if he was not, then we can only know what the Scriptures teach us. Despite his bringing an end to Apartheid, I understand that South Africa is as unsafe to travel to today as are some areas of New York City.
[And Mandela was a communist too, and therefore, cannot be trusted? And the end of Apartheid is responsible for violence in South Africa and even New York… ]
Nonviolence works only when your enemy agrees to become nonviolent. Nonviolence did not win us the Revolutionary War. Nonviolence did not win the Civil War for the restoration of the Union. Nonviolence did not win us World War I, and Nonviolence did not win us World War II. However, pacifism did influence our loss of some 55,000 American Soldiers in the Korean Conflict, and some 60,000 plus in the Viet-Nam War.
[Here is the whole concept of “winning” again. And the confusion of nonviolent resistance with pacifism.]
God commanded Israel to go to war against their enemies many times in the Old Testament. And while I prefer peace over war, and I wish “nonviolence” was the doctrine of all nations and tribes, there are times when a nation has to go to war to assure its citizens of security from those who will harm us. Anything less will ensure oppression and occupation from those who would kill us and destroy the way of life we have been blessed with.
[And the best trump-card of all – the violent portrayals of God in the Old Testament.]
J. Myers: I am not a pacifist. I have never claimed to be a pacifist. I do not recommend that anybody become a pacifist. Nonviolent resistance is not at all the same thing as pacifism. On the spectrum of forms of resistance, just-war is closer to pacifism than to nonviolent resistance.
Based on your comments, I see we disagree on many, many things. That’s fine. But many of those disagreements are forming the foundation for our disagreement on this issue. This means that any further debate on this issue will be a waste of time for both of us.
Derek: “Nonviolent resistance is not at all the same thing as pacifism.”
Don’t know what planet you have just arrived from, but “Nonviolence” and “Pacifism” are the same thing. Neither are willing to take up arms to fight a threatening enemy. Don’t know how old your are, but I will be 71 at the end of this month of June. I taught American History for some 10 years at a community college. I have studied history most of my adult life. One thing I have learned from my studies, is that you cannot allow an enemy to exist. He has to be destroyed, or he will destroy you. History teaches that, and reality proves such. Both Pacifists and Nonviolence advocates refuse to admit to such.
I did not respond any further, since I saw the exchange was becoming “unproductive.”
Here are some closing thoughts:
Nonviolent resistance is primarily differentiated from pacifism by the word “resistance.” Pacifists often are content to sit back, do nothing, and let evil roll over them. They see their role in resisting evil as little more than a speed bump. They might slow down evil as it rolls over them, but they are probably not going to stop it.
Nonviolent resistance, on the other hand, is actively devoted to resisting evil and injustice in every way possible, yet without resorting to violence. There is, as you can see, a huge difference between the two.
The Bible does not promote pacifism, but does promote nonviolent resistance. We are to do what we can to stop evil and fight against evil, but we must not do so with the weapons of war and violence. Among many other texts, one primary place Jesus teaches this is in His instruction to love our enemies.
There are six elements to nonviolent resistance, which differentiates it from pacifism and they are summed up well by Martin Luther King Jr. (King, Stride Toward Freedom, 1958, 84-88)
First, one can resist evil without resorting to violence.
Second, nonviolence seeks to win the “friendship and understanding” of the opponent, not to humiliate him.
Third, evil itself, not the people committing evil acts, should be opposed.
Fourth, those committed to nonviolence must be willing to suffer without retaliation as suffering itself can be redemptive.
Fifth, nonviolent resistance avoids “external physical violence” and “internal violence of spirit” as well: “The nonviolent resister not only refuses to shoot his opponent but he also refuses to hate him.” The resister should be motivated by love in the sense of the Greek word agape.
The sixth principle is that the nonviolent resister must have a “deep faith in the future,” stemming from the conviction that “the universe is on the side of justice.”
Near the end of our email exchange, Derek listed several wars that had been “won” by the use of violence. The definition of “winning” is somewhat debatable. While one country might have forced another country to “lie down,” was the cost of human life on both sides “worth it”? Is this “winning”?
He points out that pacifism caused the death of thousands. I do not deny it.
But note carefully that I am not defending or recommending pacifism. I am recommending active nonviolent resistance.
What is most surprising about nonviolent resistance is that where it has been used in human history, it has a better “success” record than does violent resistance (or war).
In one chapter of his book, Engaging the Powers (which is a book every Christian should read), Walter Wink lays out the history of nonviolent resistance and shows how when it is properly used, nonviolent resistance is more successful than war at stopping evil and violence. In fact, in many cases where violence was completely and repeatedly unsuccessful, nonviolent resistance brought about the change that violence had attempted to accomplish, but failed.
In a TED talk a few years ago, political scientist Erica Chenoweth talked about her research comparing nonviolent and violent campaigns, and she said that while she used to believe that violent resistance was more successful than nonviolent resistance, the data she collected blew her away and changed her mind forever. She said, “I collected data on all major nonviolent and violent campaigns for the overthrow of a government or a territorial liberation since 1900,” she says — hundreds of cases. “The data blew me away.” Below are some charts of her research, and you can read more about it here.
You can watch her TED talk here:
There is so much to be said about nonviolent resistance, but I’ve said enough for now, and the only real point of this post was to invite you into the conversation I had with Derek. Where was I wrong? Where was he?
What could have (and should have) been clarified? What is your perspective on nonviolent resistance, pacifism, and war?
Leave your comments below!
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